Serialously with Annie Elise - 158: Karen Read Trial FIREWORKS + Did Chad Daybell's Kids Perjure Themselves?!

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

Two of the most high-profile murder trials in the country, Karen Read & Chad Daybell, are happening simultaneously, and we have A LOT to talk about. Karen Read's trial was full of explosive testimony from key witnesses. Chad Daybell's adult children, Emma & Garth, testified, and it was worse than we could have ever imagined.  Shop the Merch: www.annieelise.com Follow the podcast on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@serialouslypodcast Follow the podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serialouslypod/      Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise    All Social Media Links: https://www.flowcode.com/page/annieelise_    SERIALously FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/SERIALouslyAnnieElise/    About Me: https://annieelise.com/   For Business Inquiries: [e-mail] 

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly with me, Annie Elise. Kind of a bonus episode today, bonus edition, we are doing the trial recap. I heard your feedback last week, loud and clear, you wanted the trial recaps separate from headline highlights. So instead of doing two separate episodes episodes one for Karen and one for Chad we are going to still be putting them together because it just makes it a little bit more concise easy to follow plus a lot of you have met had mentioned that you are following both trials so it just seems like it makes sense but it is going to be a long episode because boy oh boy do we have a lot to talk about not only was there some incredibly key testimony going on in the

Karen Reid trial but Chad Daybell's kids are incredibly key testimony going on in the Karen Reed trial, but Chad Daybell's kids are testifying. We have Lindsay in the courtroom watching that all go down, of course, and so we're going to be hearing from her exactly what that's like. I mean, it's been a week to say the least. So let's just jump right into it. So let's start with Karen Reed. On Friday, May 17th, it was day 14 of the trial, and there were two things that were covered during this day. The first was the cross-examination of Matt McCabe and the discussion of group text messages that were sent a few days after John's death. The second was that Matt's wife, Jennifer McCabe, finally took the stand. Her testimony has gotten

a lot of attention in general, but on this day, she gave a timeline of what happened the morning that John was discovered. And this was really the first time that a timeline like this has been presented. So right away, Matt McCabe was asked if he saw something in the snow on the night that everything went down. Matt was driving a car that was full of other people, and they were going to the Albert home for that after party. Now, Julie Nagel previously testified that she was in the car with them, and that she saw a, quote, black blob in the snow. She said that she made a comment out loud about seeing this blob, but Matt said he never heard Julie make a comment like that. So then Matt was asked about those group text messages, which were sent on February 1st. They were sent to his wife Jennifer,

Nicole Albert, Brian Albert, and Chris Albert. And in these messages, Matthew said that Chris needs to tell the news reporters that, quote, that guy never came inside the house. That guy being John O'Keefe. And Brian Albert then responded with, exactly. So the defense pushed Matt, saying that this was all an attempt for the group to get their story straight, right? But Matt pushed back and said, no, it was a fact that John never went inside the house, and they just wanted to get the truth out there to the reporters. And I also think it's important to note that the prosecution never brought up these text messages, which, you know, they seem pretty important, but there's talk about why the prosecution never brought them up. Some people are

saying that they did this on purpose because they didn't make that group of people look very good, but some people are saying that they're just not that important. That's why they weren't brought up. But I'll let you form your own opinion about that. I know I have mine. So then Jennifer took the stand, and this was a key testimony because she has been talked about a lot in the pretrial hearings. Jen recounted the morning of January 29th when John was eventually found.

And just remember, everything that I'm saying that happened that morning, this is all according to Jen's version of the story. So she said that around 5 a.m. she woke up from a call from Karen and Karen was absolutely hysterical. Karen was yelling Jen's name over and over again and Karen said that she and John had gotten into a fight the previous night but that he never came home. She says that the last time that she saw him was at the Waterfall Bar. So Jen told Karen that she saw her car outside that night at the Albert home, but Karen said she didn't remember being there. Then, soon after this call, Karen showed up at the McCabe home, and she ran all the way up the walkway screaming, did I hit him? Did I hit him? And she started talking about a cracked taillight on her car. Karen then said they had to go out,

they had to go look for John, and Jen tried to calm Karen down.ight on her car. Karen then said they had to go out. They had to go look for John. And Jen tried to calm Karen down. She took her car keys. She got in Karen's car, trying to really, like, manage the situation. So Carrie Roberts then called Karen, and Karen started saying things like, did I hit him? Could I have hit him? She told Carrie about the broken taillight,

and then just started yelling Karen and Carrie's name. So Karen and Jen drove in Karen's car to John's house, and Carrie followed them. John wasn't at the home, but the niece was there. She was very, very upset, and Jen was trying to calm her down, telling her that everything was going to be okay. During all of this, Karen became even more hysterical, and she showed the women her cracked taillight. Then they all got into Carrie's car, and Jen claimed that Karen was yelling, crying, saying things like, could John be with another car, and Jen claimed that Karen was yelling, crying, saying things like, could John be with another woman, and that she was doing this the entire drive back to

that house on Fairview Street. Now when they finally got on the street, they drove past a flagpole, and Karen started screaming. She was shouting, there he is, there he is, pointing to what looked like a mound of snow, but it was actually John O'Keefe's body. So she started kicking on the door to get out of the car, and then once she got out of the car, she ran over and straddled John's body. She lifted up his shirt, lifted up her shirt, pressed herself against him, and that might seem a little bit weird, but I'm guessing that she did this to try to get him warm, because remember, it was snowy, and it, at that point, I would imagine, was assumed that he had been in the snow all night, but I don't know for sure.

So Jen said that neither she nor Carrie could see John's body from the car. And it was clear that with this statement, the prosecution was trying to say that Karen already knew where John's body would be, because she's the one who allegedly hit him with her car and then left him for dead from the previous night. Karen, we saw you outside of my sister's. And what was her response to that? She told me that she didn't remember going there.

And then she started yelling, Jen, Jen. And then she was saying, did I hit him? Could I have hit him? And then she proceeded to say that she had a cracked taillight. In the car was Carrie Roberts, and so she kind of rolled down the window and was like, Karen, what are you doing? And then the plow was behind her, so Carrie pulled up. And she, I believe Karen, I told Karen that I was going to drive her car

because I didn't want her driving because she was hysterical. So we got in her car and then Carrie Roberts called Karen. And then Karen was screaming and, you know, saying that she had cracked her taillight. We need to go to Fairview. Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? And then she would just scream our names Kerry was telling her to shut up we drive past the flag

pole area and all of a sudden Karen starts screaming there he is there he is and she's banging to get out and at the time that she was saying this, were you able to see anything outside of the vehicle? I saw nothing. Miss Roberts looked at me and said something like, she's crazy or she's bat crazy, something like that. And when the defendant gets out of the vehicle, where is it that she goes? She just runs.

And runs where? Straight to John. She straddles John and she lifts up his shirt and then she lifted up her shirt and went to lay on him. And Miss Roberts, Miss Roberts went over and she was removing the snow from his face. So Carrie then went to Karen and started yelling at her to do CPR, which Karen did. Jennifer called 911, and then she and Carrie alternated CPR chest compressions on John. First responders then arrived, and Jennifer claimed that Karen told them, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Jen testified that she said it three times and that it was crystal clear. However, there is a lot of debate over whether or not Jen actually heard Karen say this,

but we'll get into that in a little bit. So Jen, Karen, and Carrie were then put back into the police car, and Karen was allegedly looking at the blood that was all over her hands, and she asked if she had her period. Jen and Carrie reminded her that it was John's blood. So Karen then started talking about who was going to take care of the kids, and when John's body was put in the back of the ambulance, Karen kept asking, is he dead? Is he dead? So this was when Jen said that Karen told her to make that infamous Google search about hypothermia, the how long does it take to die in

the cold. She said that it was cold and her hands were shaking, which is why she was misspelling things in the search. Jen was adamant that she made those Google searches the morning that John was found. However, the defense argues that Jen made those searches in the early hours of 2 a.m. from that early morning when this death murder was happening, when it was unraveling. And this is what actually has sparked a lot of different conspiracies out there and different conspiracy theories, and many people believe that Karen is being framed because of this specific text message. So this ended up being a big point of questioning during Jen's cross-examination, which we're going to get to next. So there was no trial Monday, but on Tuesday it picked back up and it was day 15 of the trial. It was only a half day, and this was really a big day

because it was the defense's cross-examination of Jen. The day was pretty tense, to say the least. Jen and the defense attorney, Alan Jackson, got pretty heated with one another. Not to say that there was any shouting or anything like that, but Alan really grilled Jen, and it was clear that Jen was getting frustrated quite a few times. She even started directing questions back to Alan, and he had to remind her that he was the one asking the questions

in this, not her. So the defense started out by asking Jen how she could not have seen John's body the night before. Jen said that around 12 30 a.m. on January 29th, she was inside the Albert home, the house party home, and she was looking out the front window when she saw Karen Reed's SUV in the street. Jen testified that she texted John here with a question mark and then went back to her friends. A short while later, she noticed that John hadn't come inside yet, so she went back to the front window. That's when she says she saw the SUV and she texted John again, asking him if he was coming inside and instructing him to pull behind her car, saying hello. So this happened a few times over the course of 19 minutes. Jen would go back to the window, she would see the SUV, she would text John, and then she would go and sit back down. So the defense also asked Jen about the calls that she made to John during this time.

John's phone indicated that Jen called her seven times, but those same calls weren't on Jen's phone, and the defense alleges that she purposefully deleted them. You saw in his extraction report that all of those calls after 12-18 were missed calls, correct? In his report that you showed me? Correct. In other words, the only two calls that were answered were the 12-14 and 12-18. Everything else was a missed call. I believe so. I would have to refer to it again because I've seen so many reports.

And Ms. McCabe, according to the extraction reports that you've seen this morning, comparing yours to his, every single one of those calls was deleted off your phone, correct? According to the reports. According to that report, yes. Jen said that she didn't remember making those calls and that she probably just butt dialed John accidentally. However, the defense came back and brought up a very important point. I mean, usually when you butt dial somebody and they don't answer, it goes straight to their voicemail and you accidentally leave a voicemail. But John's phone didn't show any voicemails, which would mean that the phone had to have been hung up before the call even got to that point.

So if the calls were a butt dial, how did they end? You claimed that every one of these calls was a butt dial. Is that right? Yes. So according to you, you literally butt dialed John O'Keefe's phone six times in the span of 19 minutes. Is that right? I don't remember making any of those calls.

So my assumption is I put my phone in my back pocket, and that was it. When you dial someone by mistake, you hit a button, set your phone down, the phone has to be open. You'll agree to that, right? Correct. It takes several iterations of movement to get a phone open. Face ID or password, right? Correct. Got to be locked. Because it takes several iterations of movement to get a phone open. Face ID or password, right? Correct.

So when you hit the button, by mistake, walk away, that's a butt dial. People call butt dials. What happens with the call? I assume it goes to voicemail. Good assumption, because that's exactly what it does, isn't it? You've had a phone for a lot of years, right? Yes.

It rings and rings and rings until it goes to voicemail. Correct. So in order to hang up that butt dial, you have to interact with that phone yet again, don't you? Yes. So if you had six butt dials, I think it's seven, butt dials, you'd not only have to interact with the phone once

to butt dial John, you'd then have to interact with it every single time to turn off that phone ringer so it doesn't go to voicemail, wouldn't you? I suppose. Which makes 14 interfaces with that phone over the course of 19 minutes, is that right? I mean, I guess I don't have it

all right in front of me, but there were also text messages I was sending, so again, maybe I said, shoot, I called them and then I turned it off. But your claim is you don't remember those incessant butt dials and those incessant hangups at all, correct? I honestly don't. So you would have had to forget. The defense then pushed Jen.

If she was going back to the window so many times, how did she not see a body at some point? How did she not hear a collision or see it happen? The defense argued that from the particular window, there was a very clear view of the front yard, but Jen insisted that she was looking at the street, not the front yard. Allen then asked Jen, and I'm paraphrasing here, if you were looking at me, but there was an alligator on the street, would you see the alligator? Basically insinuating that there was no way that Jen could have missed John's body just laying in the snow, even if she was looking at the street. And this line of questioning ultimately ended up being dismissed by the judge for being argumentative.

The defense then moved on to the fact that Jen testified the previous day that she heard Karen claim, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. The defense argues that this wasn't something that was in her original report to the police or in the original pretrial testimony from April 2022. See, in her original testimony, she said multiple times that Karen said things like, did I hit him or could I have hit him? The defense brought up 12 different times that Jen said these things. But what Jen never said was, I hit him until very recently. Jen

defended this by saying she doesn't think that she was ever asked directly about something like that. So the defense moved on and then asked Jen about a call that she made to her sister Nicole around 6 a.m. on January 30th. The defense said that the records indicate that the call was answered and that the two of them had a conversation, but Jen insisted that she did not talk to her sister that morning. And this call also comes after Nicole sent a text message the previous day saying, quote, we'll know more tomorrow. The defense then asked Jen, quote, so you're as sure that you didn't talk to your sister as you are that Karen Reed said, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him? Alan Jackson then asked Jen about the, quote, off the

books meeting that she and Carrie had at Michael Lank's house on January 30th. And just to refresh, if you don't remember, Michael Lank was one of the first responders on the scene of the morning of January 29th. He and his wife are friends with many of the people involved in this situation. However, Jen insisted that this wasn't some off-the-books meeting. She and Carrie were dropping off Carrie's daughter at the Lank house because she was friends with the Lank's daughter. She also said she never talked to Michael Lank himself. She claims that his wife came outside, got in their car,

and talked to Carrie for about an hour, just talking about what had happened, consoling Carrie, asking about the O'Keefe family, things like that. So the defense asked if Nicole also attended this meeting because Jen had talked to her that morning. But Jen insisted that she didn't talk or see Nicole that morning. So clearly the defense was trying to make it seem suspicious that Nicole sent a text message that they will get more information tomorrow, and then the next day she and Jen supposedly talk on the phone, and then Jen goes straight to a quote, meeting at Michael Lank's house, insinuating that they probably all met to get their story straight. So Allen continued to press Jen, saying that it was

weird to sit in a car for 45 minutes and have a conversation, but Jen insisted that this wasn't planned, and she kept saying that the conversation lasted so long because, quote, Carrie's a talker. It's the truth. Carrie dropped her daughter off. The wife came out. Carrie is a talker. They started talking. A tragedy had happened the day before. So then the trial continued with the defense's cross-examination of Jen. The previous day was very heated. It was very tense, and some of those feelings continued into the testimony on this day. Again, the defense asked Jen about Karen, saying, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him on the day that John's body was found.

The defense argued that Jen's story changed, and that she changed her story after her family was receiving all of the public backlash. The defense argued that the official police report from the day of the incident never mentions Jen hearing Karen say, I hit him. It says that Jen heard her saying things like, could I have hit him? It was only until her testimony at another court proceeding in June of 2023 that Jen started claiming that she heard Karen say, I hit him, I hit him. However, Jen insists that she remembers telling officers this and that they must have not recorded it. The defense argued that Jen's testimony changed because she was upset that her family was receiving all of that backlash.

Allen stated, you were upset by April of 2023 that there was public outrage about your family being involved in the death of John O'Keefe, And two months later, in June of 2023, for the first time, you testified at another proceeding, and lo and behold, you attributed the words, I hit him, to my client. So Jen expressed that she is a state witness that is now being tortured because of lies, and that it is a social media witch hunt all out to get her. At one point, she even put blame on the defense team, saying that they were part of the reason that her family was getting harassed. So finally, the defense directly questioned Jen about those Google searches from those early morning hours on January 29th. The defense said evidence from Jen's phone shows that she searched how long to

die in the cold at 2 27 a.m. on January 29th. She then searched for the same thing along with hypothermia hours later at 6.17 a.m. and at 6.23 a.m. However, Jen insisted that she did not make that search. She claimed that her original search at 2 a.m. was for ozone basketball. She said a friend had recently mentioned that specific basketball team, and Jen was researching it for her basketball. She said a friend had recently mentioned that specific basketball team and Jen was researching it for her daughter. The tab stayed open and she used it to make those searches about hypothermia and dying in the cold hours later, so she was arguing that that was the reason why it says that she made those searches at 2 37 a.m. because she used the same tab. I don't know if that's how technology works, guys, but TBD. So that ended Jen's cross-examination, and it began the redirect examination with the prosecution. During the redirect, Jen was again going over her version of events from that night.

She put a lot of emphasis on the fact that she couldn't have seen John's body in the yard. It was dark, it was snowy, and she wasn't looking for a body. She also again emphasized that she heard Karen say, I hit him. I told them that Karen looked straight at me and said, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. And I said that there was, I believe, an EMT that overheard as well. With respect to that fire, that's testimony in that same fire facility, what, if anything else, were you asked about statements that a defendant made to you that morning? I was asked what were some of the statements that Ms. Reed had made.

And it was like, repeat. Did I hit him? Could I have hit him? Is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead? Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? I have a cracked taillight. And then her, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him? Did I hit him? I have a cracked taillight. And then her, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. So the next person to take the stand was Carrie Roberts. She was being questioned by the prosecution and she was asked to recount everything that happened on the morning of January 29th. Her story ended up being very similar to Jen's and I don't think we need to go

over everything in detail, but the too long didn-didn't-read version is that Karen called Carrie in the early morning. Karen was freaking out, saying that John was missing. She was worried that he was dead. She was yelling Carrie's name over and over again, and Karen said that she couldn't remember anything because she had been drinking a lot the night before. So they drove over to John's house and couldn't find him. Karen showed Carrie her broken taillight, then they drove over to Fairview Street. On Fairview Street, Karen pointed to a mound of snow and said that it was John. She hopped out of the car and went and tried to put her body against his. Then they started CPR and Karen was panicking and asking if she hit John. Jen took out blankets from her car and put them all over John and she dug his head out of the snow and then brushed snow off of his face. She did mention that she noticed blood coming out of his nose and that his head was cut,

and also that his eye was swollen. So Jen called 911. Carrie said that after John was taken to the hospital, she called John's family members, and then she went to the hospital as well. Two women, Laura and Marietta Sullivan, then took the stand, and they were questioned by the prosecution. They said that they had been friends with John for a while. He and Karen went on a trip to Aruba with them in late 2021. They claimed that one day Marietta saw John in the lobby of their hotel and gave him a hug, and then Karen got very jealous and started screaming and accusing John of making out with another woman. Specifically, she yelled, So Marietta and Laura said that they thought that this was very strange,

and it kind of gave them a bad impression about Karen. Even though Karen did apologize, and she offered to pay for their hotel room for the trip, they felt like it just put a bad taste in their mouth. So I think, clearly, the prosecution is trying to paint Karen in a very bad light, maybe show that she's a little unhinged, a little crazy, a little jealousy, has a tendency to fly off the wall and overreact to things. But also, in the same breath, the defense has done a heck of a job, and Jen's cross-examination was very interesting to say the least. I've been saying from day one that there is certainly reasonable

doubt. I personally don't know what the truth is. If I was on the jury, I don't know which way I would go at this moment, and I don't know what way the jury is going to go, but I do think that there is a lot of reasonable doubt in this case, and that is never good for a conviction. So we'll see what happens. We still have some time to go, but I wonder what evidence is going to come forward. I wonder if there will be an expert to come forward to talk about if that's possible with the searches, if a tab tab's still open if it registers that search as from being whenever or from taking place whenever the tab was initially open I don't know I don't think that's how tech works but I don't work at the genius bar on apple so I really couldn't tell

you but I don't know this case is wild we'll see what happens what happens. What do you think? Do you think she is guilty? Do you think she's innocent? I will put that poll over on Spotify instead of the Chad Daybell one because I think we all know Chad Daybell is guilty. So I'm more concerned and curious about your thoughts on Karen, but I will put that over there. And now let's talk about Chad because we still have Lindsay in the courtroom with loser face Chad, his storm, his glory, all the things. And this week was pretty wild. Lindsay was actually texting me first thing in the start of the week being like, oh, my God, are you seeing this? Are you seeing this? Kids are testifying.

They're perjuring themselves and like sending me all the details of what they were saying. And it's been wild. So she's here. She's going to talk about all of it, but let me give you just kind of a little bit of a summary of what's been going down. So as we know, the Chad Daybell trial is finally nearing the end of the guilt phase. The defense is resting this week. So now the prosecution is bringing in rebuttal witnesses before both sides present their closing arguments.

But remember, after the jury begins deliberations and reaches a verdict, the trial still isn't over yet because chad is facing the death penalty and if he's found guilty the trial will then move to the penalty phase which basically means the prosecution and the defense will both present aggravating and mitigating factors as arguments to the jury as to why or why not the chat that chad should receive the death penalty if you watched the parkland shooter trial nicholas cruz's sentencing trial it'll be similar to that, but obviously not nearly as long. I personally don't think that he will get the death penalty, even if he's found guilty, because Lori didn't,

and I just think that they'll stay in line with that, but I could be surprised. Who knows? Now, as I said, this week was absolutely insane. First, because unlike Lori Vallow's trial, the defense actually presented a solid defense. They actually were like awake for this. They were actually like defending things. Chad's attorney, John Pryor, also talked a really big game during opening statements. So naturally, there was a lot of curiosity about exactly what was going to be said, who was going to be testifying, which, spoiler alert, two of Chad's adult children, Emma and Garth, actually did testify. There also was a bunch of people questioning if John Pryor would actually be able to pull off a sound argument for Chad's innocence. So guys, our correspondent and 10 to

Life team member, Lindsay, has been at the courthouse all week, literally all trial, actually, I should say, but all week, and she's going to give you the full rundown, all of the highlights, all the bombshell testimony from the kids, the jury's reactions, everything. And she's also going to talk about Chad's reactions and all of the new information that came out this week. So buckle up. Lindsay, thank you so much for being there. Thank you for looking at his disgusting face as always, and his storm. I can't. But take it away. Tell us what went down this week. Well, this week was certainly crazy. The storm got absolutely wrecked. I'll just say that. So let's start off with the defense's argument. So the first witness they called was Emma Murray. That is Chad's daughter. She is the second oldest of the five kids. When Emma was called,

there was kind of a collective like, like not, not audibly, but everyone was like, oh my gosh, because we haven't heard from Emma at all since the 48 hours episode she did with her siblings. And in that episode, she was clearly defending Chad even back then saying that, you know, it was all Lori, Lori and Alex framed my dad. Why would my dad be so stupid to put the children's bodies in his own backyard? It doesn't make sense, which, okay, yeah, understandable. That's your dad. Your mother is no longer here. That's your only parent. For the most part, it's understandable that for really anyone in Emma, sure, they want to believe that

their parent is innocent. However, after Lori's trial and all the evidence came out, it's kind of been, you know, we're wondering, does Emma know? Like, has her mind changed? All of this stuff, which at the beginning of this trial, I had talked to some sources that said that basically Emma and really all the children hadn't really looked at the evidence at all, still just kind of refused to look at it. Who knows if she's actually heard it and then was like, no, I still don't believe it or if that means that she really didn't even look into it at all. Personally, I believe it's the latter. I don't believe she looked into any of it and we'll get to why here in a second. So Emma gets called to the stand. Her hair is much lighter

than it was in the 48 hours episode. It's blonde now, like blonde highlights. But straight out of the gate, she's asked how often she talks to her dad. And she said that she talks to Chad almost every single day from jail. So take that for what you will when it comes to her testimony. She literally speaks to Chad every day. So she was looking straight at the jury pretty much the entire time. Her body was turned towards the jury. So she was kind of facing that direction. So she was looking at them when she was speaking. She said that her mother's health had declined in the past few years leading up to her death. Emma also said that she was recently diagnosed with sleep apnea and that her maternal grandfather, so I guess Tammy's dad, also has sleep apnea. So she wonders if Tammy may

have had it. She also says that Tammy bruised really easily, that she would drink colloidal silver to help heal ailments. She also bruised very easily and when used arnica cream, amica cream, I know it's arnica cream. And she would say, you know, if she were to bump her hip on a counter, she would bruise. If she was carrying groceries, the handles of the bags would bruise her arms, which I have to just ask if bruising when you hit your hip on the counter is an indicator of death. I would be dead by now. Doesn't everyone bruise when they hit their hip on any hard surface? But anyway, moving on. She said that her mom was an introvert and she really didn't confide in people and that she worked a lot during her lunch breaks, which this was directly going against

the testimony that we heard from multiple coworkers of Tammy's in the States case, when they were saying, Hey, yeah, Tammy would talk to us at lunch. She was happy. She was healthy. She would say she was working out. It was directly going against that, that no, she's an introvert. She didn't really confide in people. She really didn't even have time to talk to them in general during lunch. And then she was asked about if talking to people about her health would be something she would do. She said, absolutely not. Her mom was a very private person and that would be something that she would be embarrassed about. So she definitely wouldn't have said anything. They talk more about Tammy's health and the discussion of Tammy's Fitbit comes up. So she definitely wouldn't have said anything. They talk more about Tammy's

health and the discussion of Tammy's Fitbit comes up. So in the prosecution's case, they reviewed Tammy's Fitbit data that said, you know, she was walking 250,000 steps a month to 350,000 steps a month. So pretty active. And back then John Pryor had insinuated, but well, you know, there was a family competition and Tammy was very competitive. so maybe she was doing something to make the Fitbit read at a higher, more steps, basically. Like she was cheating on her Fitbit to win a family competition. Well, Emma totally supports that. She says that her mom was not fit. That's why she got a Fitbit so that she could get into shape and that Tammy would frequently

hang her arm off the bed and swing her arm. And at this point, prosecutor Lindsay Blake objected and she asked questions for her objection. She said, Emma, isn't it true that you had a phone call with your dad where your dad told you that? And Emma responded in the most hostile way possible. No, I saw it. And she looked angry. So right then and there, I was in my head like, oh my gosh, she's going to be a hostile witness. I'm texting Annie. This is crazy. I'm like, oh my gosh, she's doing it. She's really doing it. You know, we knew that obviously she

was going to take her dad's side, but at the same time, Tammy is her mother. So, you know, you would probably think maybe there's loyalty there. How far is she going to go? Sure. She wants to save her dad, but is she actually going to straight up testify for him essentially? But I don't think anyone expected that it would go this far. And what I just said is just the beginning of this.

Emma also said that one of the reasons she knew her mom's health was declining because every day she would come home and normally get in bed by six, seven o'clock in the evenings. When she was talking about fitness in general, first, Emma said that her and her mother both felt overweight. That's why they started doing the clogging classes and the Zumba classes together to get healthier, which John Pryor said, now I've actually gotten a lot of heat for some of my comments. So I just want to clarify, you're saying overweight, right? Not me. And Emma said, yeah, I was overweight, but I just thought it was interesting. John Pryor's like, I've gotten a lot of heat. She also said that Tammy really wasn't doing

all these clogging classes, that she really only went around six times and she had only started going six weeks before she died. Emma was also asked about the life insurance policy that was raised in September, a month before Tammy's death. So she's trying to say, no, no, no, my dad didn't encourage her to do this. We decided together in that moment and we did not consult our husbands.

Emma was also asked if she thought it was weird that there wasn't an autopsy done. And Emma said that actually she doesn't believe that an autopsy should ever be done on anyone after they died. Emma also testified that she was the one saying that she didn't want Tammy to have an autopsy and that Chad never really gave an opinion. And he was, quote, more distressed than I've ever seen him in my entire life. Emma said it was so weird because in that moment, my dad was emotionally out of control and he had always been the adultier adult in situations. So she really didn't know how to handle it. And that Chad was just very distressed and shaken up. Another piece of really damaging evidence for Chad that was brought up by the prosecution was a Google search for South by Southwest wind on the day before

Tylee was put on Chad's property or the day that the state believes that that happened. Emma says that she was the one that Googled it because she was acting as an amateur meteorologist. But what's kind of crazy, earlier in her testimony, she was asked where her house or where she was living at the time when her mom was still alive was in relation to where Chad's house is, if it was on the northwest side, southeast side, things like that. And she said, oh, you know, I'm not really good at direction. But then a few minutes later, she says that she was the one searching for the wind direction because there was something going on. So at this point, I'm looking at the people next to me and we, our eyes are so big.

We're like, oh my gosh, she's going to say, what is she going to say that she was the one that sent the raccoon text to? It was getting crazy. Then Emma explained the light and dark system. And at this point, I thought I was going to pass out literally when she says that Tammy believed in the light and dark scales more than Chad and that she was actually more extreme than Chad as far as the fundamental, very traditional literalist LDS beliefs that Chad had.

And Chad nodded his head. Emma also said that her dad was really interested in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and other leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that he would want to stick to the original form as he could. She used the word fundamental. So I'm not sure if that means he was trying to go fundamental, like FLDS style. I'm not really sure. She said that Chad taught her about multi-creations, that the goal of castings is so that you can have your own body back and be in control of yourself. Specifically, John Pryor asked Emma, so would it be fair to say your mother's beliefs, to your knowledge, were also

of the traditional belief system? Did she ever make a decision about putting death percentages or numbers on whether someone is light or dark? Emma says yes. Pryor says, well, did she do that frequently? Emma says yes. Which by the way, I meant to say this, when Emma walked in, obviously all the witnesses have to walk to the stand and Chad looked her up and down, which I don't know, kind of weird. If my dad looked at me like that, I'd be like, I'm calling the police. I don't know, not really, but I don't know. It was really uncomfy. Next, Emma's asked if she knows about castings. And she said, yeah, I know about castings. And I've actually had one done on me by my dad using the power of the priesthood.

And it worked. You had an occasion personally to deal with your mother's rating system in terms of dark. Is that correct? Several. Okay. And was there an occasion when your mother engaged in a practice of trying to rid some sort of dark entity from you? Yes. And can you describe what that was about? I have struggled with anxiety for years and it was feeling very unmanageable. And I felt like there was a being that was with me. And I talked to my parents

about it. And my dad cast it out using the power of the priesthood. And then I felt better afterwards. Okay. When you say the power of the priesthood, what do you mean by that? The power of God given by the laying on of hands. Is that something that has to be specially endowed upon something, or is that some sort of patriarchal role that someone gets as head of a family household? Any eligible man can have it. Okay. If they're living and keeping covenants in the church.

Okay. And on issues of covenants in the church, your father's not a perfect person, is he? No. And you're aware of a relationship that had been going on, and I'm not trying to embarrass you or cause you some difficulty, but you did subsequently learn that your father had a relationship with another woman. Yes. And that was not an appropriate relationship. It was not. Okay. And at this point it was for all practical purposes,

having a relationship with Lori Vallow while still being married to your mother. That's correct. And would you agree that not anybody's perfect? Yes. You're not perfect. No. None of us are perfect.

Nobody. So when you say qualified male to help with the dark spirit or the dark entity, what do you mean by that? Like the procedure to get rid of it? No, just the type of male. Is it someone who's head of a family, or what is it? In that case, I wanted to talk to my parents because they were my leaders in our family. But any man who is an adult and can make the promises to keep teachings of the church and to use the power to serve other people is eligible to receive it. That wasn't unique to my father. And giving blessings in not your father's faith, but in your faith, it's not uncommon for people to give blessings to each other. Would that be fair?

It's common for people to do that. And it's common for people to offer to give blessings to people in your faith. Is that fair? Yes. And it could come from any direction. Would that be fair? What do you mean? Anybody can give another person a blessing. Yes, as long as the man is eligible. Or anybody can give a blessing to, if you felt moved, you could give a blessing to another male. Is that possible? In the fundamentalist views around the time of Joseph Smith, there were women that would do that. That's frowned upon today, though. Okay. So at this point, it's usually the head of the male or a male person who is the one who would generally give the blessing to other people.

Would that be fair? Yes, that's correct. Okay. Now, while you were dealing with this dark entity, is it your understanding that when you're going through the process of trying to rid that dark entity or that feeling of, and would you describe it as just a feeling? Would that be a fair way to describe it? I felt like there is an actual person trying to control me. Okay. And at that point, after the conclusion of what your mother engaged in and your father engaged in, did you feel relieved or some recovery as a result of that? I instantly felt better. I felt like the individual that was trying to affect my body was gone. Okay. And this is something that is not inconsistent with the LDS teachings,

light and dark and these sort of entities. Would that be fair? And all Christianity and the Bible, the Savior would cast spirits out of people. Okay. And at this point, as a result of casting out the spirits, does that mean that after they cast the spirits out, you die? No. Is there any instant that you can recall in your teachings

as part of the fundamental or LDS church where by casting out a spirit, the result is someone dies? No. The goal of it is so that way you have your own body back and can be in control of yourself. Okay. Have you ever heard the word zombies? Just on TV and movies. Kind of at this point, I don't even know what's going on. Emma says she had a dark entity attached to her and that Chad got rid of it.

And they're really believing this stuff, or maybe she's just lying, but I do think she believed that part. I do. Emma said that her dad was fine after Tammy's funeral saying, quote, I know the grief he had for her was real. He may not have had the same romantic relationship with my mother in the past, but I know he valued her as a person and seeing her die was very dramatic. And a lot of people were like, excuse me, seeing her die. What does that mean? Or is she saying that Chad actually saw her die? I didn't take it that way. I'm not sure that the jury did either. I think that it was obvious that she meant that her dying in general was just a very dramatic, by the way, it's Emma's words

saying dramatic. I think she might've meant traumatic, but so I will say during the whole thing, she to me came off untruthful because of her tone and because she had an explanation for everything. Now, obviously I know the backstory about what really happened, all the things, maybe the jury, they do know a lot at this point, but surely, you know, they don't know every single thing. But man, I did not expect Emma to lie like that. I've never seen anything like it, which during her cross-examination, I was really hoping that Lindsay Blake would call her out, pull out the receipts, play the jail recordings. I think that'd be important for the jury to hear, but I'm not the prosecutor.

So they didn't ask for my input there. Just kidding. Lindsay Blake's obviously very talented and she's a really great attorney. And I think her cross did well for what it needed to do. Do I wish she would have gone harder? Yes, absolutely. Because here's the thing. And I understand why she didn't. Emma's mom died. Emma is a victim in this case, but now she's lying about her own mother at a murder trial. And while yes, Emma is Chad and Tammy's child, she's an adult, a full-blown adult and perjury is a crime. That's all I'll say. And Lindsay Blake even asked Emma, well, do you know that your dad texted Lori the day after your mother passed away within 24 hours and said, I'm sad, but not for the reason everyone thinks. Would that surprise you to learn that? And Emma said, no, it wouldn't surprise me. Like, okay, I get that you were trying to lie for your

dad, but this was getting out of hand. Really? That wouldn't surprise you at all? I think anyone would be surprised by that. And I actually, and she may have been more believable if she didn't say stuff like that, but whatever. Now, during cross-examination, like I said, Emma had an answer for everything down to when like Lindsay Blake would ask her, Hey, did you know that your mother's phone activity showed that she was actually awake and active on her phone past 10 p.m. And because Emma had just said, yeah, she went to bed really early because in the past few years, her health was declining. And Emma said, no, it wouldn't surprise me. And sometimes when I'm sick and throwing up,

I stay up late. And Lindsay Lake was like, but you weren't there, were you? You didn't actually see her throw up. She's like, no. She was also asked if it would surprise her that anemia and apnea weren't on Tammy's medical records. Emma said it wouldn't surprise her at all. Another thing Lindsay Blake asked Emma during cross-examination was if she had any questions when Tammy died. You know, your mom was 49. Did that not scare you? Did you have any concerns about her health or did you have any questions? Did you reach out to law enforcement or ask or anything like that? And Emma said that she didn't reach out because there wasn't a crime that her mom had just died, which earlier on Emma said that she figured out that her mom was being exhumed from a detective and that Emma reached out to family members with concerns about Tammy's

body being exhumed, but she didn't reach out to law enforcement because she kind of thought, well, they've already exhumed her. Why would they care about any of my concerns at this point? Like they didn't even notify me, that kind of thing. Lindsay Blake also asked Emma why she refused to sit down with law enforcement and go over the autopsy results when they had him back. And Emma said that the police told her they would only give her the results if she agreed to do an interview. And Emma said that, again, similar to why she didn't reach out to law enforcement after she was exhumed with her questions, she didn't want to do an interview. She said her family was getting harassed by the police at this point, that Detective Hermosillo was at the same gym as her and would purposely work out close to her to try to eavesdrop.

This is Emma's words, not mine. Emma testified that she felt like she was under scrutiny because of this whole investigation, and that's why she really didn't want anything to do with law enforcement in the beginning. She also said that a detective confronted her at church, and it made her really uncomfortable, and she had never gone back to that congregation. But pretty much, all in all,

Emma believes her dad didn't murder anyone. There's an explanation for everything. Everyone else is stupid. The police are just after Chad for no reason. Everything is a huge misunderstanding. They're being targeted. This has nothing to do with reality, basically. So like I said earlier, Emma said that she was the one that did the search for South Southwest Wind the day before Tylee was put on Chad's property. And she was asked about this in cross-examination. And she said that, well, it was just really easy to hop on the computer. There was no password, no login. You just kind of hop on and the internet would work. And I think it kind of worked against the defense because Lindsay Blake was like, well, so you're saying that anyone could just go on

Tammy's emails? Yeah, they could. They were, you know, everything was, all the passwords were saved, all that kind of stuff. So she said, so it was pretty easy for your father, Chad, to delete any emails or block contacts on emails, which she's referring to how Charles had sent Tammy an email and the email was found in the trash and that Charles' email was blocked. And Emma said, well, if he knew how to do that, like that Chad wouldn't know how to do that. I don't know. Oh, what's also interesting is, so the exclusionary order for witnesses to not watch any part of the trial, if you're a victim, that does not apply to you. So Emma,

Garth, any of the children, they could have been watching this entire trial if they wanted to. But what was really interesting is John Pryor asked her, isn't it true that I advised you, please do not watch the trial in preparation for your testimony? Which obviously he was trying to make a point to the jury like, oh, Emma hasn't heard any of the things that I'm about to ask her and she's going to have an explanation for so that she could be seen as more truthful. But part of me wonders if Chad didn't want them to watch it. I don't know. Next, Garth testified. So Garth is the oldest Daybell child. He's an adult, but he's the oldest. And he seemed so nervous when he was testifying. He was fumbling over his words.

He was saying, yes, oh, wait, no, I meant no. Like, can we go back? I actually meant no to that. Yeah, he was nervous for sure. And I do feel, for some reason, I feel a lot more empathy for him than I do Emma. I don't know why. But it just did seem like he was scared. And I think why he came off that way is because he's

not nearly as good of a liar as Emma, which not saying that she did great, but in comparison, you know what I mean? So the reason that Garth was really important to part of Chad's defense is that Garth made the 911 call the morning that Tammy was allegedly found dead by Chad. Now we'll talk about that as this episode continues, because just this morning, there was even crazier testimony that came out. So Garth said again that his dad called him over. He needed help. Tammy had fallen out of bed. So Tammy was allegedly found dead on a Saturday morning. Well, the night before Garth was working a seasonal job at a haunted house. So he didn't get home until around 1am. He said that when he got home, he didn't go into his parents' bedroom, but he could see

two silhouettes on the bed together and that like in the sleeping position and that his dad was snoring. And then after that, he stayed up and watched YouTube videos until about 3 a.m. Then he went to sleep until he woke up to his dad calling for help because he had just found Tammy dead. Now, what's really crazy here is Garth's story has actually changed a lot. Originally, when the kids did that 48-hour special, he said that he was the one that heard a thump on the ground and he ran over to grab his mom. Garth Daybell heard a loud thump from his mother's bedroom. I just ran over and picked her up and put her back on the bed. I said to my dad, I said, I think she's dead. Now here's really why this story doesn't make

any sense at all. Well, like I said, Garth didn't get home till about 1am and that's when he said he saw his parents sleeping. But the problem with that is text messages and timestamps of 10 o'clock to 1130 that night, Alex and Chad were communicating. Chad was communicating to Lori. They were all three texting, calling back and forth. And not only that, but then Alex pulls up to the church that's near Chad's house. Now, Alex's location data does not have him literally at the Daybell property, but the detectives testified that they believe he may have left his device maybe in the car, possibly. Maybe someone picked him up, took him to the house. We don't know. So basically the prosecution's whole case is that she was killed

before midnight, which really doesn't make sense if you go by what Garth is saying, what happened. Not only that, but then another time that Garth confuses things is in the 911 call when he says, uh, hey, I just, we found my mom on the floor. Uh, I don't know. And then right after that, Chad grabs the phone from him. 911, where is your emergency? We're at 202 North, 1900 East.

What's going on? We just found my mom. She's on the ground frozen, or she's stiff, and I don't know. Are you in Madison County or Fremont County? Hello, I'm Chad, the husband. He's clearly dead. Okay.

So it does seem like they were trying to come up with a story, concoct this thing, or maybe Garth was the one that found Tammy. And then Chad was like, okay, no, here's what we need to say. You call the police, like making Garth lie, which that's actually what I believe happened. He wanted Garth to lie about something or Garth didn't get the story straight, which is why in the phone call, he says, uh, I don't know. And then Chad gets on the phone. He's like, oh, I'm the husband. That's probably why Chad had to go with this whole wild story that doesn't even make any sense in general, that a dead person can somehow fall out of bed. I don't know. That's just my opinion, but also just wait because we're going to get there. Garth also said his parents had the same religious beliefs.

They would both place numbers on light and dark people. And specifically his dad's religious practices were traditional in the sense that they were closer to the original, how the religion was practiced a hundred years ago. Garth also said that he didn't hear any sounds of a struggle in the other room where Chad and Tammy slept because his room was only 20 feet away. And if that there was something going on, he would have definitely heard it. Garth also talked about how earlier that day he picked up food for his mom at McDonald's and that one of her favorite meals was a quarter pounder. And John Pryor said, well, that's a healthy meal. Like what if you eat a quarter pounder, you might die that night. Yeah, literally, John Pryor, can we not? Can we not go there? Now, one of the things that

was the same in both Garth and Emma's testimony is that both of them said that Chad's behavior in the aftermath of Tammy's death wasn't weird at all. And Garth also had the same sentiments about her health, saying that she was extremely tired really easily and she would get so winded doing small tasks and that she was also having fainting spells after she would kneel for a long time. Then on the day she died, when Garth went to deliver that McDonald's, Garth said that she seemed worn out and was just sitting on the couch and coughing. John Pryor also asked Garth about how the police came to him, to his house. They surrounded his car. They had him come into the station.

They had his wife come into the station. And Garth said that they, as in the police, were threatening to charge him. They told him he would be indicted. They said, hey, listen, your story has changed. And they even showed him a list of charges that he would be given. And Garth said that he felt like they were threatening him to change his story. Now, cross-examination wasn't great for Garth at all. But again, I do wish the prosecution would have called them out more on their lies.

This was at the time I was thinking that. And I think everyone else in the courtroom was too. As far as the jury, they were listening, but I didn't really notice them taking a ton of notes like they normally do. Did kind of look like they were done, just like checked out a little bit, which it has been a long trial, sure, and take that with a grain of salt. I'm not a body language expert at all. To me, it kind of seemed like, I don't know how much Emma and Garth's testimony really meant to them because at this point they had heard from so many people and law enforcement basically saying the exact opposite. They were the only ones having this different story. We also learned that there were two grand

jury hearings held because at one point Garth was going to get charged with perjury. Ultimately, he did not get charged. Also in cross-examination, Garth was going to get charged with perjury. Ultimately, he did not get charged. Also in cross-examination, Garth was also asked, would it surprise you to know that so-and-so and so-and-so, which one of them is his wife, said that you said Tammy was on the couch when you got home? And it was weird. Garth kind of got tripped up. Both children testified that the only advice that John Pryor had given them was to tell the truth, which, yeah, we know you're supposed to tell the truth, but it was really a lot of bolstering to say, hey, we're telling the truth here. We definitely

are saying this. This is all the truth. This is all ourself. So as the defense was starting to wrap up, the final witness, Dr. Eric Bartolink, he's a professor of anthropology at Chico State University, and he's the director of the Human Identification Laboratory. He actually specialized in burned human remains and assisted in the World Trade Center identification efforts after 9-11. So he was called to review Tylee's remains. And as we know, her remains were severely burned and mutilated. There were large portions missing, like most of her ribs, her arms, her remains were severely burned and mutilated. There were large portions missing, like most of her ribs, her arms, her legs, things like that. And Dr. Bartolink, he had worked with Dr. Christensen, who was the prosecution's expert testimony in many other things. They'd written a

textbook together. So this guy's pretty credible. However, I don't think what he said really helped Chad's defense, but maybe it did to some people. He said that he did find several signs of blunt force trauma and sharp force trauma on their remains, which is pretty much exactly what Dr. Christensen said, but that he couldn't determine when or where the attempted dismemberment and burning took place. Meaning, did it happen on Chad's property before or after? So I think that was the main thing. John Pryor was trying to say, well, we don't even know if she was burned there. There are a lot of parts of her missing. Is it possible this happened somewhere else? He also said that he believes based on his findings that it's possible that Tylee was burned whole, that maybe she wasn't dismembered and then burned.

Rather, she was burned all together when her body was together. That's why they were trying to make the point of, okay, well, if her whole body was burned on Chad D'Abel's property, wouldn't all of her remains be there? And basically he said, really, we can't tell either way if she was burned there or burned and then placed there. There's no way for them to know, which again, I'm not really sure helped the defense, but I think they just have to try what they can, obviously. So then the prosecution started their rebuttal. Now, this is where it gets really, really bad for Garth Daybell. Garth's friend testified that he worked with him at that haunted house and that the week after Tammy died, Garth said he was the one to find Tammy's body and that Chad wasn't home.

And that when he found her, she was gray and her lips were blue and he was looking for his dad. And so basically this guy, his name's McKay, he went home and told his parents that at the time after Garth told him, you know, just, yeah, this is crazy. This was what Garth told me before there was an investigation before, before anything like that. So later on, when there was an investigation, his parents were like, Hey, didn't you say that Garth said that he found Tammy alone? Like Chad wasn't even there. And I just want to say this guy was so believable. He has no reason to lie. Literally. He destroyed Chad's entire story, which has changed 500 times anyways, to begin with.

Like, it's pretty obvious. Whatever the truth is, we don't know what it is, but it's not any of the versions we've heard. Now, another part during the rebuttal, one of Emma's many lies was exposed when the detective that came to her house to give her the autopsy results and see if she would speak with them testified. And what he said was dramatically different. Now, remember how I earlier said that Emma testified that law enforcement approached her to give her Tammy's autopsy results and that they would only give them to her if she would do

an interview with them. And just because of how she was under scrutiny, feeling threatened, feeling harassed, she didn't want to do that. So then she said, well, they were like, well, okay, well, we're not giving them to you then. You have to do an interview with us. That also got completely blown out of the water because little did Emma know that the detective that came to her tour that day was recording it. And then the recording was played. We'll begin to play. I'm Bruce Mattingly with Fremont Sheriff's Office. And the sheriff said you've been working at trying to get a hold of us. Yes. And to talk on the autopsy results.

We've been trying to get a hold of you and other family members, but probably been in comedy of errors we haven't been able to do. Because you're here and we're here. Want to take a few minutes and talk about that and go over that? No, I'm just going to carry on. Okay. Who is the attorney so we can contact? So we've worked with Josh Garner before, but right now we don't have an attorney-client relationship with any particular attorney. Okay. So we decided we're just we decided we're gonna wait to learn what it is when you're ready to release it okay uh that is a choice but

we we usually just let family we always let family personally i've not had anybody really say that they want to wait that's a little we're just not interested in interviewing answering any questions we just want to see it sure we'd like to at least let you know what's in it uh and tell you about it we're not asking for an interview. I'm going to pause right there, Detective Mattingly. So nowhere in that is he saying, we won't tell you unless you give us an interview. Nothing like that. In fact, he says, no, no, no, you don't have to do an interview. It seemed like they were just trying to tell her we just normally go over them with people. And he said, no one's really ever refused to sit down with us to hear about

the autopsy. So now Chad, this week, he has been a lot more emotionally reactive than he's been the entire trial, mainly last week and this week, I would say. He's been nodding more. He's been shaking his head no. Whenever, especially when his children were testifying, he would nod with Emma. He looked very proud that they were testifying. I'll say that, like he thought he's proud of them. Meanwhile, he doesn't even, he's not even getting the fact that like how horrible this is for his children, who he's basically asking to lie from them, basically has control over

Emma from jail, talking to her every single day. I guess it just goes to show how deep this runs within their family system because it's very disturbing. And again, they're adults. Yes, it's their dad, it's their parent, but my gosh, you're lying against your mom. So the week ended with the prosecution saying, hey, we're going to bring in more rebuttal witnesses next week. Obviously this Monday is Memorial Day, so, we're going to bring in more rebuttal witnesses next week. Obviously, this Monday is Memorial Day, so there's not going to be court tomorrow or Monday. They're going to restart on Tuesday, and then they'll bring the rest of the rebuttal witnesses. I would expect there's going to be a lot more coming. Honestly, by looking at the jury's face, and I feel like I

can tell more this year than I could with Lori. I really couldn't tell. There was a few jurors I could tell on their face, but this one, I think it's going to be guilty so quickly. I think there's way more on Chad than Lori. Obviously they're her kids, but as far as evidence-wise, these are his beliefs. He's the one saying this. He's the driver of the bus here. And it's been made very clear. The prosecution has really proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt in this case. John Pryor did the best for what he could do, but this is a really tough case. Chad should not have gone to trial. He should have taken a plea deal, but he didn't. Also, I think Chad thinks his defense is going well. He has a

smug little smirk on his face all the time. He's doing more eyebrow raising, like kind of sarcastic, like, huh, huh. Like just some of the movements. I don't know why I thought that making a sound, you could see my facial expressions, but it's really awkward. It's really disturbing to see, actually. He's had no emotion this whole time. And I think he's confident that he's going to get off. I think he thought his

defense works because I don't think Chad understands that like, just because you might not have actually killed them, which I think he definitely had something to do with Tylee's remains. And I think the evidence has showed that it's like, he thinks that maybe, oh, if I didn't actually kill them myself, then I can't be guilty. I don't know. It's very elementary. I don't think he's really understanding what's going on or he's just delusional. I don't know what it is, but he's in for a rude awakening. I could tell it on at least three jurors faces. They think he's guilty already. Now the rest, I couldn't tell either way. I really couldn't read their face, but there was three whose faces this past week, literally you could

tell like they weren't even interested in hearing the defense. Who knows who the final 12 jurors will be. Obviously there are six alternates and they haven't even picked that yet. So who knows, but that again, this is just my observation. I'm not a body language expert, nothing like that, but they are not having it. They hate Chad one specifically. She literally stares at him and like has her eyebrows like furrowed. Having listened to literally every word the defense has put up, I say it's even stronger now that there's going to be a guilty verdict. Anyway, thank you for having me on, Annie. This case is finally coming to an end. Hopefully there will be justice. I

believe there will be. All right, guys. So you heard it from Lindsay herself. That is what went down this week in trial. It is crazy to wrap your mind around everything, right? I mean, there is a lot going on. These are two of like the biggest trials in the country right now. Not to mention Aaliyah Boulibon, who is the TikTok star turned murderer who's on trial and like, honestly, in my opinion, has to be the biggest narcissist on the planet based on him taking the stand and what he's been saying it's wild I covered that case on 10 to life on my youtube channel years ago when it first happened but now the trial is happening I also talked about it in yesterday's episode of headline highlights but I do think we are going to do a deep dive on that case once again and revisit it because so much more information is coming to light and like

I said his testimony direct from his mouth it's unhinged like unhinged to say the least so anyway that's soon to come other than that guys that is what we've got for trial recaps today thank you so much for tuning into today's episode if you're going to crime con next week I will see you there I also am doing a free meetup for those of you who are in the area but not going to CrimeCon. And I am doing a live podcast recording from CrimeCon with Dr. Leslie Dobson. We are doing a special episode on how to spot a psychopath. So if you're going, definitely put that in your lineup through the app and I will see you there. All right, guys. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Serialistly. And I will be back on the mic with you very, very soon.

And until then, stay safe. Watch your back. Be nice. Don't kill people. All the things. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye. Thank you.