Serialously with Annie Elise - 17: Chicago Socialite Found In A Suitcase + A Haunting Video Confession

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Welcome back to this week’s episode of SERIALously! In this episode, we will uncover how lust, greed, and hatred turned a mother-daughter luxury vacation into a nightmare. It all started out in the sun-soaked paradise of Bali. An idyllic setting for a mother-daughter vacation. But what started as an exotic retreat quickly spiraled into a chilling true crime nightmare. Heather Mack, just entering adulthood, her elusive boyfriend Tommy Schaefer, and Sheila von Wiese-Mack, a millionaire heiress and Heather's mother, were unwittingly on the brink of a horrific nightmare. Beneath the surface of this tropical utopia, something more sinister was brewing that nobody expected. Secrets were kept, relationships were strained, and hidden agendas were being pursued, and finally, things came to a boiling point that would send shockwaves across the globe. This is no ordinary vacation gone wrong story - it's a case that haunts everyone that was at the St. Regis Hotel to this day.  Your True Crime BFF, Annie Elise xx For Business Inquiries: [e-mail] All Social Media Links: https://www.flowcode.com/page/annieelise_ About Me: https://annieelise.com/ Today's Sponsors:  Nutrafol: Take the first step to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code AE. Athena Club: Get started with Athena Club today by shopping in-store at Target nationwide Nuts.com: Right now, Nuts.com is offering new customers a free gift with purchase and free shipping on orders of $29 or more at Nuts.com/ae.

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an-new episode of Serialistly. It's me, your true crime bestie, Annie Elise. You know what? Actually, no. Scratch that. It's Annie. My name's Annie. Let's just, we're besties now. We talk all the time, right? None of my friends in real life call me Annie Elise. I feel so formal. So it's me, Annie. Hi, nice to meet you. Let's just keep it casual, right? Keep it cash. So anyways, hey, it's me, Annie. Welcome to an all new episode of Serialistly. You know, I've got another case to talk to you about today that is just like booming in the true crime world. And the one today that I actually want to talk to you about today that is just like booming in the true crime world and the one today that I actually want to talk with you guys about is so psychotic I saw it first come across on TikTok and I was like holy real and then as I of course started doing some digging and doing some

research I'm like wow this chick really is batshit crazy this really is absolutely insane so I was like scratch the episode I had planned to talk with you guys about today. I had to bump this one in and be like, I got to talk to my true crime besties about this. So we're going to get right into all of that. Before we do, please take a quick minute, regardless what podcast app you are listening to this on, check the top or bottom corner. I don't know where it'll be, but check one of the corners and just double check that you're following along, following the podcast like you would any other social media account. That way, anytime I post new episodes, even if it's a bonus episode and it's outside of the normal Monday release, you will get a little

notification on your phone saying, hey, Annie posted a new episode. You better go listen to it. It must be important if it's a bonus episode you better go listen to it it must be important if it's a bonus episode and she's dropping it midweek you know get what I'm saying that way you won't miss any of it so do that do your thing and at the end of this episode as always I would greatly appreciate it if you would leave a rating and a five second little moment to type a review it helps the algorithm it helps the podcast and it is a free way for you to show support. All right, now let me talk to you guys about some true crime. Let's shift gears for a second. Let me just start today's episode by giving you guys all a little PSA, public service announcement here. If you're going to commit a crime, do not do it in Bali. You shouldn't do it in general, but if I can't convince you

otherwise, just trust me on this one. Indonesia is known for having some of the toughest laws on drug crimes in the world, on crimes in general. And let me give you an example. Most recently, a British grandmother was sentenced to be killed by a firing squad for smuggling almost two million dollars U.S. dollars of cocaine in her suitcase. She's currently being housed in Karabokan prison, one of the most infamous and brutal and worst prisons in Indonesia, commonly known as Hotel K. The prison was built back in 1979 and was originally made to only house around 350 to 400 inmates at a time, but there are currently around quadruple that amount. The inmates at Hotel K are both men and women as well, and an author named Catherine Bonella retold stories of Hotel K's

inmates in her book called The Shocking Inside Story of Bali's Most Notorious Jail. Now according to this book, murders are made to look like suicides. From wild sex parties to blocked toilets, this prison houses all. Some inmates have to sleep on hard tiled or concrete floors in 100 degree heat and as many as 40 to 50 inmates are forced to actually sleep together in a single room with blankets pillows and mosquito nets that are provided by charities which kind of brings me back to that movie broke down palace i don't know if you guys have ever seen that movie it is like a classic if you haven't it's with claire danes and kate beckensile and they're in thailand They get caught smuggling drugs.

It's kind of a whodunit kind of crime. Nobody knows who actually was smuggling them. But they, like, are living in this room outdoors, basically. That's the sleeping quarters. And it's tons of women just on the floor. It has haunted me for most of my adult life and has made me never want to risk committing a crime in a foreign country. But anyways, other inmates have even said that seeing another inmate hanging from a noose is a common occurrence, and another even recalled a time when they saw guards drag a body covered in vomit and flies

from a cell across the path from the main prison cells. Indonesian gangs that are fighting have caused massive riots and on one occasion even a fire. They also deal with inmates escaping because some guards in the past have turned a blind eye and actually let some of the prisoners out for the day. It is kind of just like a dangerous place to be in this prison. No rules apply. Every man for themselves, which makes it obviously really freaking scary and dangerous. But today's episode doesn't involve drugs or this British grandmother awaiting a firing squad. Today's episode is about someone who describes Hotel K as the polar opposite of everything I just told you. She said it's probably

one of the best prisons in the world, and that is an exact quote. And we're going to get into why she thinks that a little bit later on. But first, we need to talk about this girl who sings such high praises of Hotel K and how she landed herself there. Heather Mack. Over 4 million tourists flock here every year, chasing sun, surf, and tropical perfection. A wealthy Chicago socialite. I don't know. Maybe this is the worst advice on the internet. Heather was never easy to figure out. I just think she's unhinged.

My soul and my blood and the oxygen running through my body. Matt grew up in an Oak Park mansion. Police say they visited the home often. It's the kind of statement that doesn't even warrant a response. It's such an absurdity. I made it up in my heart, in my mind. The sun-soaked paradise of Bali has a very picturesque landscape of white sandy beaches and turquoise waters. It's home to

the lavish St. Regis Bali Resort, an idyllic setting for a mother-daughter vacation. But what started as an exotic retreat quickly spiraled into a chilling true crime nightmare. Heather Mack, just entering adulthood, her elusive boyfriend Tommy Schaefer, and her mother, Sheila Vaughn Wisemack, who also is a millionaire heiress, were unwittingly on the brink of a horrific nightmare. Beneath the surface of this tropical utopia, something more sinister was brewing that nobody expected. Secrets were kept, relationships were strained, and hidden agendas were being pursued. And finally, things came to a boiling point that would send shockwaves across the globe. This is no ordinary vacation gone wrong story. It's a case that haunts everyone that was at the St. Regis Hotel to this day. Heather Mack was born on April 15, 1995 in Chicago, Illinois. She was born to parents

James L. Mack and Sheila Von Weissmack. James was a very prominent figure in the music world as a highly regarded jazz and classical composer, conductor, and music educator. He even worked with Tyrone Davis, a Chicago soul singer who was dubbed the King of Romantic Chicago Soul, backed by MTV in the 1970s. James worked with Tyrone on all seven of his albums that were released, including three songs that hit number one on the Billboard charts for R&B. And Sheila was a socialite who was also known for her academic pursuits and achievements. Sheila was a political science student at Simmons College in Boston, after which she took a job working for Senator Ted Kennedy.

In an interview for the Caxton Club, Sheila had said, he had me doing research for him and lots of miscellaneous jobs and political life requirements. I even poured tea for Rose Kennedy a time or two. Now, according to reports, after working for Ted Kennedy, Sheila went to work for Jackie Kennedy. Later on, she went back to the University of Chicago to get her PhD, where she made friends with a novelist named Saul Bellow, an esteemed author who actually received a Pulitzer Prize and Nobel Prize for literature. Sheila really was an all-around, well-connected, very cultured, and highly educated woman. She also had an extreme passion for fine arts.

She met James, who was almost 23 years older than her, and the two of them fell in love and got married. Sheila confided in some of her close friends about how she always wanted to have children, and that dream came true for her when she was 40 years old. This wasn't James' first child, as he already had children from a previous relationship, four daughters and a son, but that didn't change how he felt about their new daughter Heather when she came into the world. Heather was the couple's only child, and the baby of the family for James. When Heather was born, Sheila and James just absolutely swooned over their new baby girl. Heather's godmother Diana had said that Sheila had great expectations as to how she would raise her daughter. She wanted Heather to have the best of everything.

She exposed Heather to museums, theater, symphony halls, and opera houses, all in an effort to acquire Sheila's deep abiding appreciation of the arts. However, Diana also said that Sheila started having difficulties with Heather beginning when Heather was just six years old, but that most of it was just attributed to Heather being a fiery little six-year-old and a little hard to manage from time to time, Nothing too serious or too harmful to worry about. The family of three lived in Oak Park, a very highly sought-after neighborhood in Chicago, and they lived in a large, big, beautiful home. Sheila and James frequently had parties at the family home, and the guests of these parties were hot-ticket musicians,

literary types, and Oak Park high Society. There aren't many details known about James and Sheila's marriage other than a few reports, including one from the New York Post that mentioned that the police were called to the home back in 2004 when James' ex-wife accused Sheila of preventing a visit from James' son. The ex claimed that Sheila would turn off the lights and pretend not to be home when they came to see James, who was ill and confined to a bed. But life for James' golden child, Heather, was completely different from his other children. Heather grew up with literally the world at her fingertips, as her doting parents made sure that she had the best of the best for

everything, and would take her traveling around the world, everything that the other children apparently never got to experience. But in 2006, that all came to a screeching halt. James passed away when he was 77 years old, while he, Sheila, and Heather were all away on a vacation together in Greece. He suffered from a pulmonary embolism shortly after being diagnosed with stage four cancer. It was a devastating blow to Heather, who was only 10 years old at the time. She loved her dad and considered herself to be closer to him than her mom. Now, according to the New York Post, Sheila left her husband's dead body inside a Greek morgue to go off and continue her vacation and just cruised off to Santorini without a care in the world just leaving her husband literally lying cold behind as she gallivanted off throughout Greece. After James died,

his will, which was written five days before his death, said that he wanted his money to only provide for Heather Mack, my child, and no other children. I mean, way harsh, five days before he died, leaving everything to one child. At the time of his death, James had an estimated net worth of a few million dollars. Before James died, he filed a lawsuit against a cruise line after injuring his foot on a cruise ship. Unfortunately, the lawsuit was settled years after he died, and his estate was then awarded an additional $1.5 million. However, in 2012, a judge allowed Sheila to pay herself $500,000 of the proceeds that went to James' estate after petitioning the court for it.

And the presiding judge noted Sheila, not Heather, as the sole beneficiary in this judgment. Growing up, James was Heather's saving grace from discipline from her mom. Now with him gone, their mother-daughter relationship became very strained, especially as Heather got into her teen years. Now take whatever preconceived notions you have about a normal mother-daughter relationship with frequent tiffs that teenagers commonly go through and throw that completely out the window. Chuck it out the window, hang on to your hat for this one guys, because it gets crazy. By the time Heather was 14 years old, arguments and situations with Sheila escalated so much that frequent police calls were being made, all because of Heather's attitude, her temper, her violent behavior, and even times when as a parent, Sheila didn't know

what else to do as a parent other than call the police on her own child. Now I'm going to read to you some of the police incident reports that were described when the police were called to their Oak Park home over the years. Starting with 2010, when Heather was just 14 years old, almost 15 years old, these were some of the police interactions. And all of these are according to the police documentation of these interactions and what they wrote. A January 2010 report stated that Heather Mack punched her mother in her broken ankle after getting upset that her mom yelled at her. It went on to say that Heather was evaluated by a local mental health professional who recommended hospitalization

due to a history of violence by Heather to the victim, her mother, but that the victim, her mother, refused to allow Heather to be hospitalized and said that she will continue outpatient treatment. A couple of months later, still in 2010, Heather was now 15 years old, and the interactions continued. In May of that year, 2010, Heather Mack tells her mom, I'm going to hurt you. In November, Heather Mack is a suspect in theft of $1,060 cash. She admits stealing a credit card but denies theft of cash. Another incident in November, Heather Mack was taking naked photos on her computer. A month later in December, Heather Mack

is angry and breaks household items. Then going into the next year, 2011, in January, Heather Mack's behavior was unstable and violent at times. That same month in January, Heather Mack pushes mom who falls and breaks her arm. The next month, February 2011, Heather Mack yelling at mom breaking objects. Same month, Heather Mack is arrested for January domestic battery. Now Heather turns 16 years old, but it's still the same year of 2011, but she's a year older now at 16. April 14th, 2011, Heather Mack is arrested for a second time after biting her mom's arm. She tells the officer that she would stop leaving bruises and just hit her mom in the head. Okay. The next day, April 18, Heather Mack pushes mom during an argument. A month later,

on June 8, 2011, Heather Mack threatens mom after she is caught sending pornographic photos of herself on the internet. Still, in June, on the 23rd, Heather Mack is out of control, throwing picture frames. The next month, on July 1st, 2011, Heather Mack threatens mom and interferes with a 911 call. On July 8th, 2011, Heather Mack runs away after an argument with her mom. It goes quiet here for a couple months until October comes. October 23, 2011, Heather Mack threatens her mom saying, I will hurt you. That same month, another police call. Heather Mack bites her mom's left bicep. God, she just always is biting her mom like some sort of fucking rabid dog. Later that month on October 30th, a day before Halloween, Heather Mack uses Visa card without her mom's

permission. Again, things go quiet for about a month until December 7th, 2011. Heather Mack storms out of parent-teacher conference after swearing at her mom, then goes missing. Then we're entering a new year, 2012 now. January 15, 2012, Heather Mack is reported as a missing person. January 15, 2012, Heather Mack smashed a plate and throws picture frames. The next week, January 23, Heather Mack goes missing again after a fight with her mom. A couple of weeks later, it's now February. February 14, 2012, Heather Mack goes missing again after a fight with her mom. A couple of weeks later, it's now February. February 14, 2012. Heather Mack is a suspect in theft of a cell phone, a Tiffany necklace, and $40 cash. Again, a little bit of a lull comes, and a couple months pass, and now Heather turns 17 years old.

And it's May 27, 2012, and Heather Mack is reported as a missing person again. The following month, on June 6, 2012, Heather Mack is reported as missing again after another argument with her mom. A couple weeks later, on June 12, Heather Mack is reported as missing again. Then, a week later, Heather Mack is a suspect in theft of two credit cards. Fast forward two more weeks, July 9th, and what do you know? Heather Mack is reported as missing once more. On July 10th, the very next day, a tearful mom tells police that she's concerned about her daughter and her ongoing misbehavior. September 9th, Heather Mack is a suspect in theft of credit cards and $584 in transactions. October 24, 2012, Heather Mack reported as missing.

October 24, 2012, Heather Mack suspect in jewelry theft of $1,400. So at this point, just like all of these police interactions littered with heather stealing money heather running away heather being abusive towards her mom just over and over and over clearly a pattern and not only just a pattern but in my opinion a pattern of escalation so the next month in november on november 7 2012 the mom tells the police of a large bruise on her wrist due to Heather being in a rage and biting her once again. Heather Mack tells police, I declined to say how that occurred. And the mom declines to press charges. A couple of weeks later, on December 2, 2012, Heather Mack is reported missing after another argument with her mom.

So another year passes, and now we're in 2013 and it's been going on for three years at this point. Not only are there a ton of police interactions like I just read off but this has been happening for three years. Constant turmoil in the house. Constant violence in the house. Theft. Running away. Just a clear sign of an unstable home for both Heather and her mother. So on January 2nd, 2013, two people were arrested for criminal trespass at the Mack family home. Then in January, February, and March of 2013, Heather's mom calls the police in fear that her daughter may kill her. On March 23, 2013, Heather Mack is reported as missing again after another argument with her mom. Now, believe it or not, that's not even half of the incidents that occurred in total.

In total, the police were called to that house over 80 times. 80 times! So clearly, there was something really horrible going on here. We don't know exactly what happened in each of these incidents, but it's clear that Heather had serious anger issues and anger problems against her mom, a very false sense of entitlement, and she didn't think that her mom's rules applied to her, not at all. And when they would get into an altercation, she would run away. At the same time, though, there seemed to be a little bit of enabling on Sheila's part. Because so many times when the police were called for Heather being physical or stealing her credit card,

she would drop the charges against Heather. So why would Heather change? Now I get, as a parent, that's very difficult. You don't want to see your child go to jail or be put in a facility or treatment facility of any kind. But at the same time, you have to do tough love and what's best for them and best for yourself. The worst thing so far that happened to Heather after all of these police calls was being in jail for a week. One week back in 2010, and then getting taken to undergo psychiatric evaluations after she had some outbursts a few times. What's so interesting about their relationship dynamic is that even despite all of this, not everything was

so bad all the time, much like a toxic romantic relationship, if that makes sense. Over the years, Sheila would take Heather on lavish vacations to some of the most beautiful places in the entire world, and in some ways, this helped their relationship for a short period of time. But this was just a temporary band-aid, and at this point, their relationship needed full-blown surgery. So in 2014, things between Sheila and Heather started ramping up again, and this time for the worst. Sheila confided in her friends about her issues that she was having with Heather, saying how Heather would become so angry and would become a handful and

would then disappear for days on end without saying a word about where she was going or what she was doing. At least four or five of her friends encouraged Sheila to kick Heather out completely because she was hanging out with a bad crowd, her behavior was only worsening, she had to do tough love, kick her ass out, get her out of there. But Sheila always took her back. One of Sheila's friends described Heather by saying Heather could be as charming and self-effacingly sweet one minute and then a vicious little monster the next. Eventually, Sheila ended up putting their Oak Park home up for sale and moved herself and Heather to an upscale Chicago apartment. Her and Heather lived together and things between them were still getting worse. On March 15, 2014, Sheila emailed a friend saying this,

I think that there has to be something done with Heather because it is not possible for me to continue living like this. All her lies, stealing, and not knowing where she goes each and every day. This has been four years now and I simply cannot do it any longer. On May 2, she wrote, Heather was violent tonight and left. When you live the way I have lived with Heather for so many years, the problems become almost your normal way of life. I am really scared of what she may do next. While all of these problems started coming to a head in early 2014, Heather also started dating a new guy named Tommy Schaefer, who was three years older than Heather and was an unemployed would-be rapper called Tommy EXX, just a complete and total loser. He spent one year in college before dropping out to focus on his music and his goal of becoming a

rapper. According to Tommy's friends and parents of these friends, Tommy was a complex and troubled young man with charm and wit who sometimes stretched the truth to make and hold on to friends, especially girls. Mainly though, he was seen as a young teen with fragile connections in his home life who just gravitated toward the more stable homes of friends and acquaintances. Some reports say that Tommy's father abandoned the family when he was young and that Tommy and his mom struggled with financial issues after he left. An ex-girlfriend of Tommy's said that even though they had dated for almost two years, he never introduced her to his mom and that she only went to his house one time and that he could

be very emotionally manipulative at times. The girl's mom said that Tommy had a history of exaggerating and making things up as well. For example, that he was suffering from a heart condition and that he would die soon, which why would somebody make that up unless you are like looking for all of the sympathy in the world and you're just like trying to manipulate someone. It is sick and weird and twisted. Sheila was not shy about her disapproval of this relationship and she felt like Tommy was not good enough for Heather and that he was a really bad influence on her. On one occasion, Heather and Tommy used Sheila's credit cards to make a slew of high-priced purchases and Sheila, of course, found out and was super pissed and she ended up pressing charges against

Tommy but not on Heather. Heather was still living with her mother in their luxury high-rise apartment in Chicago when Heather ended up getting pregnant by Tommy and dropping out of school because of this. Later on as the fighting continued between Heather and Sheila, Heather moved out and started living inside a hotel. So now we are in August of 2014, and this is the part of the story that is where things start to get a little blurry, and there are multiple versions of the story from different people. Some people said that Sheila booked a mother-daughter trip to Bali, sort of as a last-ditch effort to save their relationship, since the only thing they did together over the years besides fight was travel. Others have claimed that this

was Sheila's attempt to persuade Heather to get an abortion. And then there is another version of the story where Sheila finds out about the pregnancy while they are in Bali. So it's unclear if Sheila knew Heather was pregnant or not and as the story continues you'll understand what I mean by that but we are going to take a quick break here so that I can refill my diet coke and get my energy back up. Sheila's close friends all cautioned her against this trip to Bali that she was going to be taking with her daughter because in their view Heather was extremely erratic and was an explosive person with very dangerous behavior. But Sheila booked the trip anyway. Heather and Sheila flew first class and arrived

in Bali on August 4, 2014, where they stayed at the ultra-luxurious St. Regis Resort. The St. Regis in Bali resort is a five-star luxury resort featuring 124 suites and villas. Rooms range from $500 to thousands of dollars per night. The St. Regis Bali Resort is in the heart of the beautiful Garden of Bali, and it's on a stretch of just this beautiful, pristine beach. It's the only luxury hotel with beachfront villas in New Zadua. It also has panoramic ocean views and over 22 acres of lush gardens and a 40,000 square foot crystal blue lagoon. It is high class all the way. It is where you want to go. It is where you are going to be spending a lot of cash money to go on vacay, but it is gorgeous, stunning, beautiful. So Sheila did not hold back any expense and she took her

daughter on this extravagant, luxurious vacation. So now you have Sheila who planned a nice, beautiful vacation with Heather, but Heather who had other plans. You see, Heather and Tommy, her boyfriend, were texting each other and they concocted a truly evil plan. She encouraged Tommy to kill her mother Sheila in effort to bring her mother's nagging and her quote-unquote nightmare life to an end, all so she could inherit Sheila's $1.5 million estate. However, Tommy thought that the total inheritance was $11 million. The text messages exchanged between the two of them were truly unbelievable. Tommy, I can't wait to be rich. It's crazy as fuck, like nothing money rules the world. Heather, keep your head up. Trip's going as planned, baby. Faith.

Heather, I also know what is in my control. I know what makes people tick. The witch, I know what makes her tick. I'm with her so much. I know her habits, how she acts, what she does at certain times. It's like breaking out of jail. It takes several years of watching. I have been watching her routine and I know what I do control. I'm sneaky. I'm smart. And I watch. Trust Bonnie. Don't make everyone else mistake and underestimate me. Tommy, I like the confidence, G. Once you think like you're a mastermind, you start understanding that you can control a lot more than you thought. I don't know if you caught it there, but there's like a Bonnie and Clyde reference that's starting to begin and starting to brew. So Heather used her mom's credit card to buy Tommy a plane ticket that cost $12,000, all for Tommy to meet her in Bali. And once he got there, his arrival set their horrific and disturbing plan in motion. While they otherwise communicated openly in texts about their plan, they used the phrase saying hi, that's a quote,

quote saying hi, quote, as code for murder. In the hours before they set their plan to kill Sheila, Heather texts Tommy that she literally can't wait for her mother's murder. A direct quote. Their text messages continued even further. Heather, there's no better time to say hi, is there? Remember, saying hi is code for murder. Tommy, go with your gut, baby. I'll be outside. If you need me, I'll hear it. Tommy, I promise you, Heather, all you have to do, G, is get her weak. G, no listen. I'll be standing by the door, coming now. Tommy, relax. You're Bonnie. Do it. At this point, they were talking about Heather hitting her mother with a big-ass pull. That's a quote from them.

That's a direct quote, guys. And Bonnie was, of course, in reference to the cute little nicknames that they called each other, Bonnie and Clyde, which gagged me. Then Heather wrote back, and she said, Heather, are you sure she'll KO? And KO means knockout. After that, it's believed that based on the investigation and hotel surveillance cameras, that Tommy managed to hide in the bathroom inside Sheila and Heather's room before the murder took place. So then these text messages continue. Heather says, okay, slow, but don't keep the door open for too long. Too much light comes in. Text when you're in. Slow, G, quiet. If I talk at all,

just come in. Tommy responds, here I come. Heather, good job. Stay over there. She's facing the other way. Tommy, she's so awake. Heather, can't we suffocate her together? Tommy, phone's on 1%. Tommy, let me just creep up and whack her. Once I do it. She was drunk, slipped, and fell. Heather, okay G, okay, just knock her out. It'll be so much easier.

Is the door closed? Phone dead? Which, let me just say, if you're planning to, like, execute a murder, plug your phone in before. Don't be showing up to the murder and the crime scene with a 1% battery, you joker. Are you kidding me right now? Like, clearly you are not as experienced and professional as you think you are if you're rolling up to commit a murder where you need to be in contact with your co-conspirator and you leave your phone on 1%. Give me a break, my guy. Not very smart. So within moments of these text messages happening, Sheila was blungeoned to death. Indonesian authorities believed that a large fruit bowl

attached to a metal stand was used to beat Sheila to death. Heather and Tommy quickly stuffed Sheila's body inside a suitcase, grabbed a hotel luggage cart, and then wheeled the suitcase out of the hotel. They were acting like they were just going to go check out of the hotel and loaded the suitcase into the back of the taxi. Then Heather and Tommy went back to the front of the hotel and pretended to be like, oh, I have to go get my mom so that she can pay the bill because we're checking out. But obviously that wasn't going to happen. So instead, Heather and Tommy just completely fled the scene from the back exit and left her mother's dead body inside a suitcase, inside a taxi cab, outside the St. Regis Hotel.

The taxi driver waited for Heather and Tommy to come back, but obviously they never did. So the taxi driver was confused, but also not going to wait around forever for these two loser kids to come back, but obviously they never did. So the taxi driver was confused, but also not going to wait around for forever for these two loser kids to come back. So finally he decided that he waited long enough and he needed to get their luggage out of his car so that he could take off. As the driver went to take the luggage out of his car, out of the back of his cab, he noticed blood seeping out of the suitcase. The hotel employees and the driver were horrified and immediately took the suitcase to the police. When the police received the suitcase, they started to unzip it, and Sheila's half-naked body fell out in front of them. Now before going further into

what happened next, we need to talk more about this plan to kill Sheila, because it turned out that this wasn't something that just came out of nowhere while Heather was in Bali or like a specific fight arose and made Heather want to do this. No, not at all. They had been planning on killing Sheila for much, much longer and one of Tommy's cousins was even involved in this. Tommy had told his cousin Robert Bibbs that Heather offered him $50,000 to kill her mom. A month before the murder took place, Heather told Robert that she wished her mom was dead, and she asked whether he knew someone who would kill her for money. Robert knew that Sheila had money and that Heather and Sheila would be going to Bali in August,

and Tommy told Robert that Heather was planning to kill her mom while they were in Bali and that he was going to travel to Bali to meet up with Heather for the entire thing. Robert was ultimately charged with conspiracy to commit murder back in the U.S. and he made a plea agreement with the prosecutors. According to the plea agreement, while Tommy waited for his flight to take off in Chicago, he exchanged text messages with Robert and Robert knew that Tommy expected to receive millions of dollars as a result of the murder. Eleven million dollars to be exact. Which, by the way, never existed.

Also that Tommy would spend some of his money on Robert. So once Tommy got to Bali, he texted Robert that Heather had unsuccessfully attempted to kill Sheila. So then Robert texted back trying to give Tommy advice on how to kill Sheila, including drowning or suffocating. Additionally, Robert admitted that he told Tommy that he should murder Sheila as long as no cameras were present, and to be careful, and that he encouraged Tommy in general to go forward with the murder. So Robert was sentenced to nine years in prison. Sheila's autopsy came back and said that she had died from asphyxiation after the

blunt force blow to her nose blocked her airway, essentially making her choke on her own blood while unable to breathe. She also had a smashed vertebrae and defensive wounds on her arms. Sheila, Tommy, and Heather were seen on hotel surveillance arguing in the lobby, but the surveillance video was the last time that Sheila was ever seen alive. Heather and Tommy were arrested the very next day at a very cheap hotel that was just six miles away from the St. Regis. Whenever they were first arrested, neither one of them would talk or cooperate with police, but it was initially reported that Heather claimed she was pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy, which turns out would be a complete lie.

After Sheila's body was discovered, Heather and Tommy initially claimed that they had been taken hostage by an armed gang who killed Sheila. They said that they managed to escape somehow miraculously, but that they were fearful of going to the authorities due to threats made by the gang. Tommy later changed his story. He said that he killed Sheila in self-defense during an argument that happened in her hotel room. He claimed that Sheila became angry when he told her that Heather was pregnant with his child and that she started attacking him, so he said that he struck her in the head with a metal fruit bowl handle in the heat of the moment. Heather also changed her initial story. This time, she said that she hid in the bathroom while Tommy and her mother were arguing, and that she only came out after her mother was already dead. She admitted to helping

Tommy stuff her mother's body into a suitcase, but said that she wasn't involved in any part of the killing. She had no part in killing her mom. While awaiting trial, Heather ended up giving birth to her and Tommy's child, a baby girl that she named Stella. Now this part is really, really weird, guys, and I didn't realize this was even a thing, but after Heather gave birth, Heather got to keep Stella in prison with her and raise her there until she was two years old, and then she would go to a foster family. Now if you remember at the beginning of the story, I talked about the prison where she was being housed being a total shithole. This place is not even livable for a rat, let alone a newborn baby. But nevertheless, Heather, a now convicted

murderer, got to raise an innocent child, an innocent baby, in one of the worst, if not the actual worst prison in Indonesia. When it came time for their trials, Heather and Tommy were both sentenced to prison in Indonesia. Heather for 10 years only and Tommy for 18 years. And the reason Tommy got more time was because somehow the three judges on the panel believed that Heather wasn't as involved as Tommy. Heather gave an interview with People Magazine after she was first convicted, along with a close family friend that knew Sheila, but of course, the interviews were conducted completely separately. Now, usually, I wouldn't read this long of a quote in an episode, but you truly have to hear exactly how this was written, because whenever I read this, I was just like dead. I was

like, are you freaking kidding me? What? So listen to this. During Heather's interview from her prison cell, she repeatedly insisted she didn't kill her mother, but admits that their life together grew troubled after the 2006 death of her father. Still, she says, there was a lot of good in our relationship. I don't know if I would describe us as friends, but we were close, perhaps too close. Heather describes Sheila was an overbearing mother who lavished her with gifts, but also made her sleep in the same bed with her every night. I had a nice room, but if I ever tried to sleep in it, she couldn't take it, and she wouldn't sleep, says Heather. So I slept with her, adds the family friend. When I'd ask Sheila, don't you think she's a little old for that? She'd say, why? She

needs me. She has nightmares at night. She needs me. According to Heather and the family friend, mother and daughter also bonded over shoplifting. Shoplifting the expensive French cosmetics that Sheila liked but never wanted to pay for, despite having plenty of cash. We'd take thousands and thousands of dollars worth of makeup, Heather says. She'd tell me that nobody would expect a kid to do that and have me steal it while she was distracting the clerk. I wanted to make her happy, so I would just do it. If I went to a psych ward, she would get frustrated within a couple of days and couldn't take being away from me, so she would do everything she could to get

me out, says Heather, who claims her mother's behavior grew increasingly erratic due to drinking. She didn't want me to get help, and she didn't want to get help for herself. By the time she turned 18, Heather had begun pulling away from her mother, but that only added to the tension. I tried to move out of the house multiple times because I couldn't take it anymore, she says, and every time I would try to leave, she would call me and send me pictures of herself trying to kill herself, saying if you don't come back right now, you're not ever going to see me again, so I would always come back. According to the family friend, Sheila would provoke her, sometimes saying hit me,

hit me, until Heather would just do that. When I would try to tell her to give Heather space during their arguments, she'd say, but what if she leaves? What if she doesn't come back? Sheila, says the source, not only feared her daughter, but was also terrified that Heather would abandon her. So she had to keep her close and controlled in any way she could, she added. Then during the same interview, Heather gives her first different story of what happened. Heather, who was pregnant with Tommy's child before leaving on the vacation in August of 2014, claims that she had zero interest in going to Bali. She says that Sheila was drunk the whole time and taking prescription pain pills, saying, I was so depressed I wouldn't even leave our room. I missed Tommy. Tommy and Heather were convicted for Sheila's murder in April. For their part,

they claimed Sheila had flown into a rage upon learning that Heather was pregnant. Tommy testified that he hit her with the steel handle of the fruit bowl when she attempted to strangle him as Heather hid in the bathroom. In the media, they say we had it, meaning Sheila's killing, all planned out, but that's not what happened. Heather insisted this. She says she attacked Tommy. He hit her. That's all he did. I saw it. Now, you would think that this is where the story would end, but it actually gets even crazier, guys. Like, batshit crazier. So we're going to take a quick pause because the Diet Coke is going right through me. I gotta use the bathroom, and I'm going to be back to break down the craziness that came next.

Okay, so like I said, it gets even crazier. Take a look. Not exactly hard time, is it? That's mom killer Heather Mack having fun dancing while she's in prison on the island paradise of Bali. Heather is wearing makeup and looks happy-go-lucky as she playfully sticks her tongue out. And here's the 20-year-old Chicago-raised heiress in trendy shades, a big smile on her face. Heather and her boyfriend Tommy Schaefer were convicted of murdering her mother

and stuffing the body into a suitcase during a vacation in Bali last year. Schaefer is doing 18 years, Heather got 10. The young lover's daughter, Stella, was born in prison and is now six months old. This video shows Schaefer cradling Stella while mom was dancing. She says goo.

Huh? Goo. Goo, goo, goo, goo, goo. I goo like that. It's cute. The prison where Heather and her boyfriend are being held has been described as a hellhole. But it sure doesn't look like that in this new video. It's just really painful and frankly sordid to watch this. The hellhole looked like a country club.

And it looked like a party. I think she's dancing on her mother's grave. Yeah, San Quentin, it's not. So yeah, what is going on here? Heather had access to a cell phone in prison and frequently posted on her social media accounts. Partying, drinking, playing with Stella, birthday parties for Stella, and even posted about a new relationship that she was in with another woman who was an inmate who was named Raphael. Now, according to Tommy, he claims that Heather would even have sex with many women around Stella. Of

course, I don't know if that's true, but that is what he said. And it keeps going, guys. Heather posted this shocking new confession on her now-deleted YouTube channel. This was two years after her interview with People magazine. This is a video that I need to make. A lot of the times, since I've been a kid, I've heard, the truth sets you free, the truth sets you free. And I never understood. But I'm Heather Mack. And I want to be set free.

I don't want to live in a lie anymore. When I was 10, my mother killed my father in a hotel in Athens, Greece. Two weeks before I came to Bali, I found out that she killed my father. And I made it up in my heart, in my mind, my soul, in my blood, in the oxygen running through my body,

that I wanted to kill my mother. First, I asked Tommy Schaefer to help me find somebody to kill my mom for $50,000, and he said no. After that, I got this whole new savage idea in my head that I wanted to kill her in a hotel room because she had killed my father in a hotel room. We were going to Bali, so I began to plot. I began turning off Tommy's phone, taking Tommy's phone when he was asleep, starting in Chicago, taking Tommy's phone and having conversations between Tommy and myself, texting myself, having fake conversations, and then deleting them before he could see them. I did that because part

of me knew that with this plan of killing my mom in a hotel, that she might, I might get arrested. I didn't want to get arrested by myself in a different country. So I came to Bali and I told Tommy that he was going to come here for a vacation. I mean, this video is so insane to me. Not only is it her confession, but she doesn't sound remorseful. She's bringing her dad and looping him into it, trying to make that the justification as for what she was doing and why she did what she did. I don't know. It is so bizarre to me. When I first saw this, my jaw was literally on the floor. Heather's attorney in Bali claimed that the contents of the video was fake

and that his client was actually coerced into it by Tommy, saying Heather Mack put a handwritten letter in front of her to be read. So is that true? Was she coerced? Or is Heather telling the truth completely? And she really did frame Tommy. After this, Heather gave numerous interviews to multiple news outlets from all over the world, some on video or audio recordings and some not, and she

continued to change her version of what happened over and over and over again. In one interview, Heather said after Tommy arrived, all three of them got into an argument where Sheila was furious, called Tommy the n-word, and then threatened to cut the baby out of Heather's body. That's when he started hitting her with that metal fruit bowl and beat her to death with it. Heather continued by saying, Tommy was saying that we should leave her there and run, but I was like, no, I didn't want to leave her there. So instead, they wrapped Sheila's body in a bed sheet and stuffed it into her own suitcase, which snapped her neck in the process. Now, here's the thing.

First of all, I don't believe any of that. There was blood. I mean, I don't believe any of that. But there is a part of me that wonders if the People magazine interview had any truth to it by not only Heather but also the family friend. And what I mean by that is that if there were any truth to the allegations that Sheila was very codependent on her daughter and didn't ever want her sleeping in a different bed, didn't ever want to be without her, couldn't go days without her, I could see a world in which Heather confides in her and tells her she's pregnant

that Sheila does snap or get angry because I could see if she truly was codependent and possessive of her daughter that by her daughter having a child she may think she's losing her and losing her control over her losing her her physically, emotionally, mentally, everything. Enough to lash out and this end up being self-defense? Probably not, in my opinion. But I could see if she truly was possessive in that way over her daughter, like to the millionth degree, that by hearing her daughter's pregnant, I think that would probably set off some alarms, for sure.

In another interview, Heather said, I mean, sure, we had planned it. I was the one who said it first. I planned it all in Chicago. But when it happened at the hotel, it wasn't like that. There were huge knives in the kitchen for cutting up pineapples. So if we had planned to kill her, we would have just gone for the knives. It just happened in the heat of the moment. He beat her to death with a fruit bowl that was in his hand. In this same interview, Heather completely backpedaled on her YouTube confession video, saying, oh that, that wasn't true. I made it up because Tommy was blackmailing me. He wanted me to say that I had planned it all so that his sentence would be reduced. But then later on in the same interview, she told another

completely new version and motive for killing her mom. This time saying, my mother was a racist. That is why this happened. She said that I was black enough and that if I had a baby with Tommy, it would be even blacker. My mother was a racist. That is why this happened. Now, I have no idea if this happened or not. But hello, Sheila's husband James was black. So I hardly think she's a racist. Heather and Tommy broke up in prison. But Tommy still saw baby Stella while she was there. Their daughter was now with a foster family outside of that wretched and disgusting prison, thank God. But Tommy was suffering from what seemed to be depression and just completely

isolated himself for a few years after his sentencing and didn't really do the whole media thing like Heather did, which was definitely a good thing, I think. But he finally was interviewed, as well as Heather, separately, back in 2019 by a New Zealand journalist Ian Neubauer. He met with Heather first who was super cheery and in a great mood and immediately told him how the prison she was in was the best prison in the world. She said unless you're filthy rich it's impossible to turn your life around once you're in the American prison system. Over there, it's like, hey, prisoner 1161. Over here, they call you by your name. There's really no punishment here. It's just about rehabilitation. Yes, I'm locked up, but I'm happy. My life is better now than it ever was before. I'm far happier than I was living with my mother in Chicago. She said her relationship with her mom turned sour after

her dad passed away, saying my mother was super abusive because she was an alcoholic and a drug addict. I still have these marks on me from when she stabbed me with her fingernails and put out a cigarette on me. One time she even set my hair on fire. It may have looked like I was rebelling when I was a teenager because I was hanging out with gang members and missing school, but it wasn't like that. My mother would drink heavily at night, and once she was drunk, she would start fighting with me because I would hide her car keys to stop her from going for a drive to the store to get more booze. If I fell asleep early, she'd fall down the staircase, so I rarely got to bed before five or six in the morning,

and then I would wake up when she woke up at about 1 p.m. At school, they thought I was a spoiled rich kid who was partying until dawn, but they had no idea that I was being chased around the house all night by my mother with a kitchen knife. Now again, I don't know if this is true. I wasn't there, but what I do know is Heather's story has changed over and over and over again. There is always kind of the same thread that she paints her mom as the villain, but she said it was because she found out she was pregnant, then it was because she was a racist, then it was because she killed her father, then it was because of this. Like, like, what's that saying? The boy who cries wolf or the girl who cries wolf, whoever cries wolf, somebody cries wolf. If you cry enough times and spin your story enough times, nobody's

going to believe any story you say. So I don't know if there's any truth to that. Maybe there are antidotes of truth in there, but we will never know because Sheila's not here to defend herself. Now, when Tommy was interviewed, he has a completely different approach on what happened and wasn't making up a million stories like Heather was, but he did blame her for what happened and felt like she was evil, emotionally manipulative, and even called her a black hole. He said, I'm guilty of murder and that is why I am in here. I did it along with Heather, but my reasons for killing Sheila were different to hers. She said, and tricks I went through at the time, which is why I helped her kill her mother. She may have said in that video where she says the truth will set her free, but the truth is everything was her

idea and I went along with it because at the moment I was really fucked up. So even though I know Heather is happy in prison and I'm in hell, I would say that I am freer than her. I have become a better person while she is stagnant. She's stuck in a spider web and she doesn't even know it. But God is currently judging her as he is judging me. Now I gotta just say that is a pretty well put together statement. He's taking responsibility although he is yes putting blame on her and he's kind of making excuses as for him being like a bitch boy sucked into it. But for him to kind of say where he's come to and the realization that he's had I just felt like that was kind of a good statement I don't know do you agree or not the journalist asked Tommy if Sheila really was this

crazed alcoholic with drug issues and he said drugs I don't know but I knew Sheila was an alcoholic I would hear her slurring her words when Heather was talking to her on the speakerphone and her verbally abusing Heather. I think it went both ways. They were both violent to each other, but there is no doubt that Sheila was an abusive mother. One time back in Chicago, I saw her flip out, grab Heather by the hair, and drag her around. Sheila was doing the same thing the day I killed her. I did not mean to do it. I mean, obviously, you can argue from reading the text messages between Heather and I that it was premeditated murder, but the truth is, it just happened in the heat of the moment. The fight was

already going on when I walked into the room. I was just standing there, listening to all of the yelling and name-calling, and it all became too much for me, so I just started thinking about justice. Now, what's interesting is that nobody has ever corroborated their story about Sheila being an alcoholic or having pill issues or anything like this at all. Ever. Never has happened. Not in one police report either. But is this true? What do you guys think? In 2021, Heather changed her tune yet again, this time saying, I absolutely regret what happened. I loved my mom. I still do. She wasn't evil and she didn't deserve to die the way that she did. I didn't kill her for money. It was for my freedom and Stella's freedom. Or so I thought at the time. I think of her a thousand Again, Heather, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Literally, get your story straight. You'd think that after all of this time in prison, she would have thought about her story, so she wouldn't have to have a hundred different versions of it. But no, it keeps changing. It's also interesting to me that she can sit there and admit to murder, but can't tell the truth about why she did it. But I guess a lot of criminals do that, so I don't know. Later on in 2021, Heather made the news yet again.

Developing this morning, seven years after she was sent to prison for the murder of her mother in Bali, Heather Mack is a free woman once again. Judy Wang is following developments in the newsroom. Good morning, seven years after she was sent to prison for the murder of her mother in Bali, Heather Mack is a free woman once again. Judy Wang is following developments in the newsroom. Good morning, Judy. Good morning. Heather Mack, now 26 years old, is in a detention room at an immigration office near Bali's airport. She is awaiting a flight to the U.S. Mack served seven years of a 10-year prison sentence for helping kill her mother, Wally Chicago socialite Sheila Van Wies.

Heather, how are you feeling? How are you feeling, Heather? What do you like to say? prison sentence for helping kill her mother, wealthy Chicago socialite Sheila Van Weese. Heather Mac did not respond to reporters questions. She was escorted through a crush of reporters and photographers outside the prison in Den Pizar and the immigration office. In August of 2014, Sheila Van Weese's badly beaten body was found in a suitcase found in the trunk of a taxi parked at the St. Regis Bali Resort. The next day, police arrested Mack, then 19 and a few weeks pregnant, and her boyfriend Tommy Schaefer at a hotel six miles away. Hotel video showed the couple arguing with Van Wiese in the lobby shortly before she was killed. Mack gave birth to a daughter who was allowed to live with her in her prison cell until she turned two under Indonesian law.

She gave custody to a woman who is raising the child until Mac's release. Tommy Schaefer is serving an 18 year prison sentence under Indonesian law. Heather Mac can be reunited with her daughter who is now six years old. Mac's attorney stated earlier that she has not seen her daughter for nearly a year because prison visits stopped due to COVID-19.

In the newsroom, Judy Wang, WGN News. She was released three years early for good behavior. According to reports, in her early prison days, Heather was known to party in jail and drink jailhouse homemade alcohol. She was also thrown into the cell tichus which is like a rat cell and had to sleep on a dirt floor on more than one occasion which good you deserve it but at some point she apparently decided to change her ways she learned to speak the native language and apparently turned into a model prisoner and

became the prison's chief choreographer for dance performances, sang with the ladies choir, and was a fitness instructor. Kind of feels a la Jodi Arias. Does it not? Like entering the singing pageants that are just like cringe? The chief of the women's prison said, Heather has never been violent to other prisoners or to the guards and is a helpful aid in daily life. She teaches Zumba classes daily, conducts dances for special festivals, and participates in the spiritual life. Despite now being freed after being released early, Heather was in for yet another surprise. She wanted to stay in Indonesia with her daughter, but instead, she was deported back to the United States. A grand jury indictment from 2017 was

unsealed right as Heather was flying back to Chicago. Now, Heather found herself swapping one form of captivity for another. After stepping onto U.S. soil for the first time since her mother's death, Heather was immediately taken into federal custody, now facing charges that could result her spending the rest of her life behind bars. She was charged with conspiring to kill Sheila in a foreign country, since a lot of those text messages and conversations with Tommy's cousin happened in Chicago, as well as obstruction of justice. Heather's lead defense attorney told the Chicago Sun-Times that it was going to be a war if Heather was going to be arrested. Well, no war happened.

With Heather now facing federal charges and Tommy still serving in Indonesia, serving his time in prison, Stella was put into the custody of one of Heather's family members. Heather pled not guilty to the new charges. U.S. District Judge Charles Norgle set the trial in Chicago for July 2023. Attorneys predicted that it will last no longer than three weeks. But not so fast, guys. As I was researching this case, this time more news came out. On June 1st, 2023, U.S. District Judge Matthew Kennelly set a June 15th change of plea hearing during a brief phone call with Heather's lawyers after U.S. prosecutors said that they made significant progress towards

plea negotiations. The prosecutors told the judge that they expect Heather's case to be resolved by a plea, but said that they are still working out some of the specific language. Prosecutors also recently revealed that Heather allegedly covered her mother's mouth with her hands during the killing and later told one of Tommy's relatives that Sheila had to die because Tommy would have been in even bigger trouble if she survived. Heather's sudden change of heart, if you want to even call it that, isn't very surprising to me. In fact, it was probably her legal strategy all along to change her plea right before trial to try to get the best negotiating terms possible. She would be a special kind of stupid to try to plead not guilty given everything we know from Heather's own mouth and the staggering amount of evidence against her. Don't get me wrong, Heather is for

sure stupid for planning to kill her mother, but she seems to be somewhat of a cunning, manipulative criminal, or at least she puts on that front pretty well, in my opinion, judging on how well she handled that prison in Indonesia. There are so many heartbreaking things that happened throughout this story, but the one that bothered me the most was learning of the email that Sheila sent four days before she was murdered. She wrote to her lifelong friend, I am more frightened than ever. I will keep in touch. It is just bone-chilling. And it's almost as if she knew something horrible would soon happen to her. Yet despite her

friends warning her not to go and her own gut feeling, she gave Heather another chance and a decision that turned out to be deadly. This case is truly haunting because we have heard and talked about so many cases in the past where a child, you know, murders a parent or abuses a parent and of course vice versa but this one just hit different for me because it felt so calculated so cold so premeditated through those text messages like she didn't even see it as murder she saw it as a task she had to complete with her boyfriend and then the fact that the story is just constantly you're changing changing changing she's the victim now she's not now she is I mean you can't even keep straight with it I can see that she tried to paint her mom in the worst light possible in every way by saying she was responsible for her father's death that she was abusive she was an alcoholic she was a pill

popper she was a racist all of these things as though she's trying to just clasp on to any justification for her actions it's just so sad when you see a child inflict this kind of pain against their parent and even when we see it vice versa it's just so hard to see because again those are the relationships and the bonds and the closeness that are supposed to be the ones you can count on the most, not the ones who are going to literally kill you and turn against you. This case is just so unbelievable because of the insane narrative that unfolded within the paradise-turned-nightmare of Bali that led to an international spectacle of this entire Mack family, their secrets, and ultimately a brutal crime that left the whole world stunned. This saga is full of mystery, tension, and bloodshed. Young Stella is left in the shadow

of her mother's looming trail, now possible plea agreement. This story, with its deeply disturbing twists and turns, serves as just a chilling reminder of the darkness that can lurk behind even the most unsuspecting victims because of the human capacity for love, hate, and the deadly consequences that can arise when the line between the two becomes fatally blurred. What do you guys make of this whole thing? What do you make of Heather? I don't know. It's just, it's so crazy to me those videos are forever etched in my mind of her confession her callousness I just can't seem to take my mind away from them anyways thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of serialistly with me today guys please don't forget take 2.5 seconds give this podcast a rating on whatever app you're listening on. Take 30 seconds to leave a quick review. I

would be so, so, so grateful. And also, again, if you're not following the podcast, make sure you are because you never know, I might drop a bonus episode today, tomorrow, the next day, and you won't know about it if you're not following the podcast. So you got to follow it so that you know when I'm dropping those because a lot of the time the bonus episodes are for in the moment case updates that I just want to rapid fire get you guys in real time and I don't have time to jump over on YouTube or do anything else so I just record it post it on my podcast and if you want to stay up to date on those guys you gotta follow along sorry I won't ever sing again I am like tone deaf ain't it cute anyways thanks so much for hanging out with me today guys I

appreciate it I love talking true crime with you I hope that this episode was educational for you and informative. And yeah, and until the next one, be nice. Don't kill anyone. And like my mug says, don't be an asshole. All right, guys, thank you so much. And I will see you next Monday for a brand new episode of Serialistly. It is me, your true crime bestie, Annie, not Annie Elise, Annie, signing off. All right, guys, have a great rest of your week. Take care.