Serialously with Annie Elise - 361: My Sit Down with Nancy Grace: Kohberger Posed Victims Bodies? Monique Tepe Shot MULTIPLE Times?!

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Nancy Grace joins Annie to discuss Bryan Kohberger, the murders of Spencer and Monique Tepe, and more..If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.⭐SponsorsMomentous: Head to http://livemomentous.com, and use promo code ANNIE for up to 35% off your first order.Willie’s Remedy: Order now at http://drinkwillies.com/ and use code SERIALOUSLY for 20% off of your first order + free shipping on orders over $95, and enjoy life in the high country.BetterHelp: Sign up and get 10% off at http://BetterHelp.com/AE..👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [e-mail].📚 Episode Sources CNN | Superior Court of the State of Washington | The New York Times | WOSU Public Media ••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Hey, true crime besties, welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly. Hello and welcome back to Serialesley. Today, I am joined by somebody you all know, former prosecutor, never afraid to tell it like it is, host of crime stories with Nancy Grace. Nancy Grace, welcome to the show. Thank you for inviting me. It's a real honor. Well, thank you so much for joining.

I actually have so many questions about cases that you have covered. in the past in your career that you are currently ongoing, investigating and covering. So I want to just jump right in. And I actually want to start with the news in Idaho and Brian Coburger because, as we all know, Brian Coburger pleaded guilty back in July of 2025 to the brutal slaying of the four college students. And we all knew that it was extremely horrifying what he did and the manner of deaths and everything that happened. However, newly unsealed document was released that outlined just how barbaric it truly was. It indicates that Brian Coburger stabbed these victims over 150 times. And I have a very specific question I want to

ask you, but before I get into that, I just want to outline how they broke it down. It was starting with Kaylee Consolves, she was stabbed 38 times, 24 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. Maddie Mogan, 28 times, 13 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. Zana Kronodal, 67 times, 23 of which were to her face, scalp and neck. And Ethan Chapin, 17 times, four of which were to his face, scalp and neck. Now, we know that Zana fought back. We heard that early on based on her injuries and just how horrible that crime scene looked. And that also explains why her injuries were nearly double, if not triple, the other victims.

but my question for you is, why did Brian focus so many of the stabbings on their face, scalp, and neck area? Annie, again, thank you for inviting me. That is a question the prosecution does not have to answer at trial. The question, why. That goes to motive. The state is never required to prove motive. Because it asks the prosecutor to go into the mind. of literally an evil killer. A lot of people don't use the word evil or the devil or Satan,

but I think that all of that is personified in Brian Koberger. Why did he do what he did? We'll never know. But I can tell you this, Annie. I have seen multiple cases where the victim is attacked specifically in the face. Often we see women attacked in the genitals, the breast, the crotch area, the vaginal area, which indicates a sex motivation, even if the victim isn't sex assaulted. And a lot of killings related to hatred of homosexuals, of gay people, you will see their genitals mutilated, which gives you a very strong indicator of motive. They are driven by hatred of either misogyny or hatred because of someone because they're gay. But again, the state doesn't have to prove that. This is what my takeaway is. He was destroying the beauty of these victims.

Kieli Gonzalez was stabbed so many times in the face. that her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth. Her teeth were around her. And that's what Mr. Mrs. Gonsolves, Steve and Christi have to think about. I don't know how they think about anything else. And then when you look at Zana's 67 stab wounds, because she dared to fight back. And in the midst of this, Annie,

you have the roommate hearing Koeberger say, I'm here to help you. And then stabbing the victim multiple times in the face, destroying their beauty, wiping out their identity. It's heinous, it's evil. And to me, it goes to motivation, which would be one of the first things I argued to, I would argue to the jury. If we had had that opportunity and were not given a weak, prosecutor that didn't have the spine to take the case to trial. You bring up an interesting point regarding the hatred and that being a potential motivation

and destroying their beauty. And early on, a lot of people, I think, assumed that Kaylee was Brian's target and that he went there specifically for her not only because of the level of injuries, but also because of the blunt force trauma and the facial injuries that caused her facial disfigurement. But now that we have seen the autopsy results and the way that this attack was so brutal on all of the victims, do you think that with the evidence that's been made public, she was the target? Do you think there was a target, a specific target, or he just wanted to go on a rampage? I don't know if rampage, and I've used it myself, would be the right description. because a rampage seems to indicate a blind, wild criminal spree.

This was not blind. This was pre-planned. He had stalked these victims, not necessarily in the traditional sense of the word, but he had driven by their home over and over and over. I believe he stalked them online. I believe that he went into their places of work, maybe even onto their campus to spy on them. As it turns out, when he first moved to Pullman, he went to a pool party.

And at that pool party, he took a lot of pictures of women and spoke to them at the pool party. Some of those, at least one of those women, were online friends with the victims. I don't know if that's how he first became aware of them, but likely. and the stalking began. So this was not a wild, blind rampage. This was very well thought out. Who was the victim? You can't go by the number of wounds alone

because you see Zana was 67 wounds. That doesn't mean she was the original victim. That means most likely that she fought back and sustained more injuries. who was the original victim? We don't know, but I also know that Koeberger had shown an interest, and this is from his digital footprint, in sex assaulting women that were passed out, were comatose, were asleep, or in this case asleep, and he came onto something very, very different. They were awake, and he had to fight tooth and nail to murder them.

I don't know what his original plan was, nor do I care. He murdered them. And I don't think one day goes by that some ding-dong online doesn't say, why do you insist co-broker is guilty? He was framed or he had a co-defendant or an accomplice. He pled guilty under oath in a court of law. He did it. That infuriates me as well.

I think that that group has now dubbed themselves the ProBergers and they advocate for his innocence that... Don't care. Don't care what they call themselves. I'm with you. I'm with you. Sing it to somebody that cares. Now, speaking of him not perhaps expecting what he saw when he went into the home and expecting people to be awake and being caught off guard, a forensic scientist from Brian's defense team has said that Kaylee and Maddie were posing.

in bed together after being killed. Specifically, that Kaylee was moved from her head being on the pillow to on top of Maddie, and then the comforter was pulled over them. I thought it was really interesting that he used the word posed because I think that it could perhaps be that or that Brian was trying to conceal the crime that he had committed so that when people walked into the room, perhaps it would be a little bit, you know, delayed in seeing what had really transpired. But what is your opinion? in hearing that. Posed is a term of art in the criminal world. It staged is a term of art in the criminal world,

which means that the scene was tampered with. It's really all that means. But I agree with your analysis that they were posed. Why put one female victim on top of the other? that's posing. That's in the traditional sense. Anytime you tamper with a scene, whether you turn off the lights,

whether you put a blanket over the victim's face, which I've seen in many, many murder cases. I had one case that I looked at where a mom was murdered in her home. She was found on her bed, completely naked, but the killer had taken a wicker bathroom basket trash can and put it over her head. What a demeaning way for your body to be found by homicide detectives. I've seen in many cases where a sweater or a blanket was put over the

victim's face or over their body. I worked on a case where a victim was covered in leaves and the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby, for instance, the girls were covered with limbs, tree limbs and twigs and brush. You ever seen a dog circle three or four times before it sits down? Have you ever seen that, Annie? Yes, I have. Why? Why? I don't know why.

But I know dogs have been doing it since thousands of years before we came to the world. It's instinctive. Did Koeberger intend to cover up their faces? Don't know, don't care. But he did. I think it's something instinctive that, you know, there's a lot of theories. The killer doesn't want the victims looking at them. They don't want to see their faces after, in this case, disfiguring them.

They are repulsed by the victims. They are repulsed by the victims as they're. they look in death. It could be any number of things. But what does it mean to me? All I care is about its probative value. What can I prove? I learned in court. There's, there's, if you could see the stacks of paper on my desk right now, and I'm working on, have been working on the teppy story. Just stacks and stacks of facts that I've, that I've, amassed. All of them are not probative. They can't prove something. In court, for me, if I can't use it to prove something, it doesn't exist. I need every scrap, every scintilla,

every shred of evidence to prove something. This proves something. This proves to me that the murder was not random. This wasn't somebody that just broke in to burglarize or rape and went, oh, and then killed the victims and ran. No. This killer took time to stage the scene, whether it was just turning off the lights or moving the body or putting a blanket over the face. It doesn't matter.

That's staging. That means typically not random. If it was a random burglar that lost it and killed the victims, they would run. They wouldn't take time to stage the scene. Not random. which is probative. It proves to me it was someone that picked out these victims to kill. It's probative.

That's interesting point you make because based on your experience as a prosecutor and your knowledge of the case, what do you believe Brian Coburger's M.O. is? There's been the term in-cell thrown around as well, as far as who he was and what could have potentially motivated him. What do you think? Do you think he just wanted, he had a thirst to kill and he had been planning this? He wanted to be smarter and prove he was smarter? What do you think it is? I've thought about this a lot, which of course, none of this is probative, but I have thought about a lot because I think I was about five years into felony prosecutions, nothing but felonies. And at that point, I developed an expertise. I was dealing with nothing

but hardcore, typically murder, serial murder, mass murder, serial rape, serial child molestation in any type of arson, which is extremely difficult to prove. And I was sitting in court looking over at the defendant. The jury wasn't there, of course, because I wouldn't look at the defendant from the jury. And I was thinking, why did he leave this wake of pain behind him? You know, like a speedboat leaving awake that would touch so many lives. I can speak to the truth of that. My fiancé was murdered shortly before our wedding.

I dropped out of school. My dream of becoming a Shakespearean Literature professor was over. My dream of being a wife and a mother and having a family. Over. Destroyed. And because of that, over 20 years passed before I could bring myself to have that dream, again. And I was an older pregnant mom, highly, highly risky. And my daughter, Lucy and I almost died because I gave birth so late in life. My little girl. It affected my life, my decisions,

my career, as it is, the way I raised my children. the way I see the world, everything. So I was sitting in court looking and thinking, why would you leave that wake of pain and ruined so many lives? And then it hit me like a thunderbolt. Why ask why? You're wasting your time. That said, I will entertain your question as to motive.

Think about Coburger. Who was he before the murders? His sister had described him as a fat slob. We don't use the F word in our home. Fat. Her words, not mine. A heroin addict couldn't get a job tried repeatedly to get on with police departments. So what, Barney Fife?

Couldn't get on. He had to prove himself. He had to be a star of something. So, he began his studies in criminal procedure and criminology. He studied to the point where he was hired as a teaching assistant, gets into a graduate degree program at WSU, Washington State University in Pullman. And he conducted all of these interviews with hardened criminals about their motivation and how they got caught and how they targeted their victim

and what went through their mind at the time of their murder and he'd pick felons that had committed violent crimes like rape, like homicide, almost as if he was trying to live vicariously through them. And I believe that the four victims were guinea pigs. He wanted to prove he could do it and not get caught. He wanted to feel what they felt, the other criminals. And he wanted to be master of his craft.

That's why I think he did it. That's why I think he picked these victims and a deep, deep misogyny, hatred of women. Yeah, maybe because he couldn't get a woman. I don't know why. He hated women, but he obviously did. So you mix all that together and you get a devil's brew

personified by Brian Koberger. May he rot in hell. Amen. And he obviously was not smart enough to get away with it. And the evidence that even has been made public to this day has been overwhelming, which leads me to my last question

regarding Koberger. And then I want to jump into the Tepe case, which you had mentioned earlier. January is always that reset moment for me. New Year, fresh energy, and really looking at what actually supports my health. And if you've ever stood in the supplement aisle just feeling completely overwhelmed, you're not alone, trust me, story of my life. I feel like the supplement industry is honestly this like low trust category.

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first order. That's live momentous.com promo code Annie. If you had been the prosecuting attorney on this case, what would you have done differently? Number one, I would have had the balls to take it to trial. Let's just start with that. Trial is never easy. It's arduous. It's painful. And this would have been a long trial, too. But that's why you're, elected to the district attorney's position. That's why you get paid. You don't get paid to hide in your office and take cheap, please. That is not what is expected of you. So, effing do it. Get in there and try the case. Overwhelming evidence of guilt. There's never a slam dunk, do I have to say O.J. Simpson.

But there was so much evidence in this case. I mean, if you're going to have the death penalty, and I'm not preaching pro or anti-death penalty right now, but if you're in a jurisdiction with the death penalty and you are the elected DA, you're just a house pet sitting

in your office, you're afraid to get out there and try the case? Get in the ring, get dirty sweat, bleed, but try the case? I mean, I don't know. If they re-elected, Tim. It's on them. Yeah, I know so many people were angered with that and still are angry with that. So thank you for sharing your opinion on that. I want to move into the Tepe murders.

You mentioned you have stacks and stacks of paperwork regarding this case. And this is relatively perfect because I have a lot of questions. Now, for anybody who's listening, who's a bit unfamiliar, back on December 30th, 25, Spencer and Monique Tepe were gunned down in their home while their one-year-old and four-year-old children were inside the home, luckily left physically unharmed. However, weeks went by without any arrest until finally an arrest was made, and it was Monique's ex-husband of nearly a decade ago, Michael McKee, 39 years old, which shocked everybody, I think, to be like, it's been 10 years almost since you divorced. How long has he been in the picture? Has he been harboring a grudge? And court documents do allege a history of threats and abuse stemming from Michael toward Monique,

not only during their marriage, but after their marriage as well. And the probable cause affidavit that was just released regarding the arrest and things in this case, it showed that Michael McKee was actually at the house on December 6th, which was 24 days. before the murders happened. Now, luckily, Spencer and Monique were at a football game that night, so nothing happened. However, based on your knowledge and what you have been covering and looking into, do you think that Michael was there casing the area, getting familiar, or do you think he was intending to actually kill them 24 days earlier?

I think he knew their movements. I don't know if he hacked into their email. I don't know if something was mentioned on social media. that they were going to the championship playoff in Indianapolis, the Big Ten playoff. I think he knew that they were gone. He was caught on a neighbor surveillance video entering the curtilage, which is a legal term of art, meaning the area surrounding your home or your domicile.

It could be an apartment. It could be a camper. It could be a tent. What is curtilage? It could be a garage. It could be a portico. It could be a tool. It could be a tool shed.

It could be a disconnected garage. Oh, it could be a dollhouse. It could be a dog house in the backyard. You typically, under the law, do not need a separate search warrant to search the curtilage. But this is what I think happened. Looking at the outside of the teppy home, and Nick and Spencer shared with their two children, there was an enclosed back, I'll call it a yard, but it was bricked over.

There was a little bit of grass surrounding the brick. And it was, from what I can see, the fence was attached to the house. Here's the house, and there's a little bit of fence on either side, which is attached to the house, and that fence goes around the back and completely encloses. the back area. From looking at the wedding photos where Monique and Spencer are standing in the backyard, yes, they were married and murdered in that same home, that fence looks to be at least four to five feet tall. And it's solid. You can't see through it. The affidavit states that surveillance reveals Dr. Michael McKee, the murder defendant, entered the

the curtilage of the home. That doesn't mean he was seen entering the front door. What does that tell me he was seen getting over the fence into the backyard area, such as it is? On the back of the home, there is a door entrance in either a basement door or window entrance. And he stayed in there for hours, which means to me he got access into the home proper. What did he do in there? I don't know. Go through her underwear drawer.

Look at scrapbooks. Look at the wedding album. Go in the children's room. He had on his dating website. He wanted children. And as he sat gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail, he watched Monique remarry to the man of her dreams, Mr. Wright, not Mr. Wright now.

and have two beautiful children. He probably saw christening photos. No telling what he saw. Now, Monique did not keep a social media profile. She's probably too scared to. But it leaked out. Family members, friends would post pictures

and the wedding video was posted by a relative. How many times do you think he went through that? But I believe the neighbor surveillance video caught him jumping the fence and then disappearing and not coming back out for hours. He was in that home. He got the lay of the home. He probably had already looked up the floor plan.

He probably had already looked at the home on Realtor.com or Zillow or something. I imagine he knew the layout before he went in, but he stayed in there hours, luxuriating, probably smelled a perfume. I don't know what he did. But he knew where he was going the night of the murder. I think he knew they would be gone, and I think he went in to look around the home.

Now, this is why I think he knew that they would be gone. That night at the Big Ten Championship, Annie, Monique was there with her husband, Spencer, and a group of friends. The friends go, hey, where's Monique? And Spencer said, words to the effect, oh, she went back to the hotel. This was at halftime, and a very expensive ticket. game. She never came back. She was so upset and they go, well, what's wrong? And he said,

something to do with her ex-husband. It's no coincidence that he's skulking around in her home and she gets upset something to do with her husband and leaves the game halftime and goes to her hotel room upset, distraught. I don't know what he did. Did he send a text going, hey, you left your bedroom light on? Or hey, I just checked to see if the coffee was still on. Or hey, I love I love the nursery for the babies. There's no telling what he said to her or if he said anything, but something at that exact

time got her really upset and she left the festivities. So he knew they were gone. Oh, Bob Shell. Everyone thinks that Spencer was shot multiple times and Manit was shot

once. That is not true. According to this document we've unearthed. This was a document file, Jan 11, 2026, Franklin County Municipal Court, State v. Michael David McKee. Quote, complainant being duly sworn

states the above named defendant, Michael McKee. Honor about the 30th day of December did purposefully with prior calculation and design cause the death of another, Monique Tepe, by shooting the victim

multiple times with a firearm. She was shot multiple times too, according to this document. Now let me- Which means to me he unloaded the gun on both of them. What? Oh, absolutely. I do, I want to ask you this really quick, Nancy. Based on your experience not only covering cases but prosecuting cases, have you ever seen a case in which somebody harbors such a grudge and resentment for a decade long before striking?

In a domestic homicide, I investigated and personally prosecuted. The husband murdered the wife, hit her in the head, set the house on fire, a millionaire, I might add, beautiful home. When fire trucks arrived, he was a lounging a la Romanesque and the yard across the street. It was like 3 a.m., as I recall. He was completely dressed, khakis, belt, shoes, walt, and, it, glasses. And he talked to them for like three or four minutes and went, oh yeah, my wife's in there. He had hated her for years, but I'd have to say no, because I do not believe that defendant had planned the murder for so long and had nursed a grudge for so long. I would say,

Dr. McKee is the first one I've seen, that nursed his hatred for nearly a decade. And during that time, he threatened to kill her. We are now learning that he raped her during the marriage and choked her during the marriage. Horrible marriage. Horrible. Horrible man. What advice would you give to the Franklin County prosecutor as she takes on her first felony murder case? Honestly, let the vets try the case. She has never tried a homicide case. No offense. She's a great lawyer. But this would be her first homicide prosecution. She's third chair.

Just let these two guys that have tried many, many homicides, let them do what they do, be secure, and you are the boss of them. If you see something going sideways, which I doubt, you're in charge. But I would not trust this to a first time. to a first-time homicide prosecutor. You asked me, and I'm telling you, I didn't lead a prosecution on my first case. H-E-L-L-N-O.

The first case I ever tried was a shoplifting, a felony shoplifting, and guess what? The guy didn't even steal anything. I had to beg and plead to the jury, get him for attempted shoplifting. He did, after all, cut a CD player off the display and stick it down his pants and his crotch. Do you do that when you go shopping? No, he was trying to shoplift.

It was a desperate plea. But I did get a conviction on attempted to shoplifting. Look, I offered the guy probation, but he had such a long rap sheet. Any conviction would have triggered jail time. So they're like, hey, I'll roll the dice. You're new. You'll probably lose. No, I did not try a double homicide as.

my first case. No, you work up to that. She's a great lady. She's smart. She's talented. Please, let these two people that are veterans, season homicide prosecution, let them do their thing. Please. And the rest will fall into place. She's smart. She didn't win for nothing, okay? So let them go. Well, I want to switch gears for a quick second and go back. in time a little bit to the Casey Anthony. Oh dear. Which is obviously, I know, I know. I know. All right, look, are you tired of waking up hungover and worrying about what happened the night before? Because if you're trying to be more intentional this year, yet you still want to relax, you want to have fun socially, let me just tell you about Willie's THC-infused social tonic. It's a low-calorie, low-sugar, alcohol alternative that actually works, delivering a fast-acting, euphoric social buzz,

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in that case. I personally still remember exactly where I was when that verdict was read and just the visceral reaction I had of just disappointment and anger and frustration. and your coverage during that case was huge, arguably iconic. I'm just going to use that word because it truly was. And so I do have quite a few questions for you about that case, starting with out of all of the interviews that you conducted while covering that case, what one still stands out to you the most? I guess one of the interviews that stands out the most would be the interview with the judge.

who sat back and watched it all unfold. Judge Belvin knows that Tomlin K.C. Anthony is responsible for Kelly's death. And I can only imagine what it felt like to watch that whole train wreck happen in front of you. Another thing that struck me was

when I first met Cindy and George Anthony. Anthony in person. And they had been portrayed so badly, so horribly in the press, where the media would come and get on their yard and they had lost their little baby, their precious Pearl, Kelly. She was like their daughter to them because top mom, Casey Anthony, did not take care of Kelly. They took care of her. They bought her food, her pull-ups, paid for her clothes. She lived with them, so did freeloader

Casey Anthony. She was their world. And she's found in a trash bag ten houses away from their home in a swampy trashy area. That's what they were dealing with.

And then their own daughter being suspected and tried for it, they were at the worst moment of their life. People dissect that everything about them, everything they had ever done wrong or perceived to be wrong. And when I met them, they were delightful, smart, kind, caring people. And to think that George Anthony got dragged through the mud, the way Taught Mom dragged her own father through the mud,

that her mother got up on the stand and committed perjury to try and save Taught Mom's life? I feel so badly for them. Another, another interview that really sticks out of my mind is when I spoke with the bodyguard, so to speak, remember, Totmom went to jail first on minor offenses. I don't know. Was it check cashing or something like that? Check cashing, forging the checks, and then, yeah, she started lying about her job at Disney World.

Yep. So she was in jail on a minor offense before she was arrested for murder. And she made bond and got out. The bonding company had to stay with her so she would not abscond because everybody needs. She's going to get charged with murder. And, of course, many people in that position would try to leave the country. he told me she's been in jail right

and Kelly hasn't been found her body hasn't been found she's still missing she comes home from the jail they walk into the Anthony home the first thing she says

it's not what do you know about Kelly where is my daughter what's being done the first thing she says, she walks in, she goes, what's her supper? I mean, really? I'm not a shrink, but boy, would I like to analyze that if I had the know-how? And another thing that he, the Bell Bondsman observed, so many people to this day go, oh, George Anthony did it. He did

not do it, number one. But the bodyguard, observed George Anthony jump on Totemom and push her against the wall and goes, Where's Kelly? Where is Kelly? What'd you do with her? If he knew where she was, I don't think he would have had that outburst. George is a lot of things, a lot of good things, but he ain't an Oscar-nominated actor. Okay? He did that frustration and anger and pain. and loss, he wanted to find out where she was. And if you look at the jailhouse videos of their conversations, you know, with the glass between them,

every time they would approach, George and Cindy both would ask, well, you know, what about Kelly? She would go ballistic and unload a string of curse words at her parents. So I just don't see George. pushing her about Kelly's whereabouts and her reaction to that, that to me indicates George and Cindy truly did not know where Kelly was. And everything they said at trial was BS. Everything BIA said, everything Taumum allowed him to say is all BS.

Thank you for sharing that. I feel like that's something that I haven't personally heard before, especially what Casey had said when she walked back into the house after being released. But a couple of years ago, I know you're aware of this, she came out with her new documentary or docu-series on Peacock of, you know, where the truth lies, I think is what it was called, where she really doubles down firm on the stance that her father, George, is responsible for this. And she even makes further allegations, which... Liar!

Yeah, trying to throw a Hail Mary. but what I found was interesting is in that docu-series, she also admits that Zanny the Nanny never existed, which I think we all collectively knew. But when you heard that, did you feel vindicated in a way or feel like, I'm so happy she finally acknowledged that, even though she still is painting George as the villain and the cause? I think we all expected that and knew that,

but what was your take when you heard that? woman, you think I get validation or vindication from Totem? I'm Casey Anthony. I never watched her documentary. Oh, good. It would infuriate you. I mean, what she said is not worth the salt that goes in her bread to still be blaming George at this juncture. I mean, go away. Go away. I don't want to hear about your substack. I don't want to hear you lecturing the vice president about whatever. She's now a legal advocate. I don't want to hear you or see you in your hot pants at a bar luring in another guy.

What? I don't care. No, I do not get validation or vindication because top mom Casey Anthony admitted she lied. I already knew she lied. Well, let me ask you this then, Nancy. If you were in a room with Casey today, what would, would you say to her? Would you ever even consider a sit down with her? I was asked to be part of a documentary with Tomlin, Casey Anthony. And when I learned, I couldn't ask my own questions,

and I could not be assured that my appearance would not be altered or edited or my words changed. I did want to do it. I did not do it. I also do not want to give a platform to top mom Casey Anthony, who I and many believe murdered her little girl. Now, did she intend to commit murder in the traditional sense, such as I take a gun, I hold it up to you and go, you're going to die now and I pull the trigger? Maybe not. It could have been along the lines of making home a chloroform, which she looked up on the computer and had Cindy take the fall for it. It could have been ODing her on Benadryl. It could have been giving her Benadryl and putting tape over her mouth and putting her in

the car trunk and letting her sleep and she dies from asphyxiation. I don't know how Kelly died, but I do believe it was a result of what Top Mom did. Now, how is that murder? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. February can feel like a lot. Everywhere you look, it's flowers, it's couples, it's reminders that everyone else seems to have their entire love life like dialed in and figured out. But the truth is, a lot of us are still figuring it out. Whether you're single, you're dating or even married, or somewhere in between, everybody's journey looks different.

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Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash A.E. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-E-R-H-E-E-L-P-E-E. That is murder on several different levels. It could be felony murder, which is a death that occurs during the commission of a felony. You may not mean the death to happen. And like, you and I go rob a bank and you say, Nancy, don't shoot anybody. And I go in, I see a teller and go, bam, she's dead. And you're like, what did I just tell you?

Don't kill anybody. Well, you're on the hook for felony murder. You're committing a felony, robbing a bank, and a death occurs, whether you had anything to do with it or not. I mean, one of the tellers could drop over, kill over with a heart attack, and that could still be felony murder. Yes. It could have been felony murder, child abuse or neglect by putting her in a trunk or ODing her on Benadryl. And she died. It could have been abandoned and malignant heart.

What is that? Another form of murder. For instance, you get in your car. Let's just pretend it's a Porsche. And you drive 90 miles an hour through a festival, a street festival, and you mow down four or five people. Do you know them? No. Did you mean to kill them? No. But you had such an abandoned malignant heart. No sympathy or empathy for the human life. That's murder. So there are several legal theories under which Top Mom could be prosecuted for murder as opposed to intentional murder. I'm going to

strangle Kelly dead and doing it. I think that was a major flaw. I don't think. the jury understood all the levels and all the theories under which she was guilty. But I don't want to be part of a platform letting her trash other people and giving her one-sided tale of what happened without a thorough and sifting cross-examination. I think that's extremely commendable and fantastic. I mean, enough with Casey, we can leave her in the garbage where she belongs. I do have another question for you before we get into the wrap-up segment. What are your thoughts on Ellen Greenberg's case now being re-examined? Do you think that her family will ever receive the justice that they're looking for? I pray to my Holy Father in heaven that they do. Since I first found out

about Ellen's murder deemed a suicide on the spot just like that. I knew it was wrong and launched my own investigation, which has taken years. I even wrote a book. called what happened to Ellen to explore what happened, I think, and have been saying for years, the only way to get the truth is for the feds to take over. Why? At the time, the local district attorney,

for whatever reason, which is a whole line of inquiry, decided not to fully investigate the case. now the governor is Josh Shapiro. He was connected to the DA's office at the time. Then he became the AG. He can't connect to the uncle. Attorney General, top cop.

And when the parents begged and screamed and pleaded and demanded that the case be reopened, he's like, whoa, that's my old office. Of course we didn't do anything wrong. I know those people. They would never. And when you're friends and colleagues with people, you have on blinders. So, again, it wasn't investigated. Now, he's the governor.

Of course, he's not going to claim the AG and the DA are responsible and did a bad job. He's part and parcel of it because of his connection. The only way for a full investigation to take place is for the feds to intervene. And I pray to God that they are true to their word and they do it. I've been screaming that. You're preaching to the choir. I've been asking for the feds to get involved for years. Do I think she was murdered?

Yes. You cannot statute. yourself over 20 times in the back, including severing your dira, which is the protective sheath around your spine, all on your own. That did not happen. I agree. And there were so many things after the fact, circumstantial, yes, but the fiance's uncle taking her computer the following day, so many different things, him calling the cousin before 911, that just, I don't think anybody that I have actually spoken with believes that this was a suicide. So I've spoken with Ellen's mom quite a few times too, and I'm hopeful that they do finally get answers as to what happened

to Ellen. So you are known for your hot takes, your no nonsense, and you're just straight, you know, no bullshit opinion. So I want to just get your hot take, your one sentence hot take on the following people, and then we're going to wrap this up. Very more few. There was one person in the state, the one civilian that had access to Bam, B brother, A, Alpha, M, mother, which is a very, very powerful animal tranquilizer. It brings down rhinos and elephants. That was found in Suzanne Morfew's system. That one civilian, we are told, that had access to that is Barry Morfew. Chew on that, Morfew. Next. All right, Jody Arias. Jody Arias, the ultimate grifter and con, who actually shot a bird at me.

in the courtroom. I haven't forgotten that. But that said she changed her story multiple times. First, I wasn't there. Then her digital camera that caught shots of Travis Alexander during his death. And her foot on the scene was found in the washer, tangled up in the sheets. When she was confronted with that, she goes, oh, okay, I was there. But two guys dressed as ninjas came in. They killed him and I got away. Really? What farce of a crime story movie have you been watching? Finally, she changed her story to self-defense and tried to paint Travis as a purve. Rot in hell, Arias.

Next. All right. My final one, Scott Peterson. Oh, talk about the devil. This is one of my favorite stories about Scott Peterson. This says it all. So two bodies washed ashore in San Francisco Bay. Detectives go to Peterson, and they say Scott Peterson.

We have horrible news. We've gotten a DNA match. Those two bodies are Lacey and Connor. Within 15 minutes, the detectives tell me this did not come out at trial. Scott Peterson's in the back city, he goes, hey, can we drive through in and out? I want to double, double with cheese and a shake. Really? He just found out Lacey and Connor are absolutely dead.

Their bodies on the San Francisco Bay Beach washed up. Somehow Connor escaped Lacey's uterus. They're both dead. The hope is gone. You will never hold your son in your arms. I have a son and a daughter. that would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me is to be taken away from them.

And he wants that effing double, double with cheese. Anything else? Yeah. No, thank you so much for joining today, Nancy. Can you let everybody know where they can watch you, where they can listen to you, just so they can get more information to all that they can be in this case? Well, thank you.

We are at Crime Stories on YouTube. We also air first at Fox One, the streaming giant. We are on Sirius XM every single day and of course on IHeart, our radio home. So please join us. We live chat throughout the program on YouTube every single night. So please join us. Amazing. Thank you so much, Nancy. Thank you for inviting me. Please invite me again. Bye, dear. All right. So I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. I certainly enjoyed talking with Nancy. I feel like I could have chatted with her for hours. I just look, I have papers and papers. and papers here on my desk. I had so many questions that I wanted to ask her. And unfortunately,

we didn't get a chance to get to all of them. So we are definitely going to need to have her on for round two. So let me know in the comments. If you enjoyed this episode, what you want me to ask Nancy next time she's on and your thoughts on these cases. All right, guys, until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, don't join any cults, and just be a good human. All right, bye.