Serialously with Annie Elise - 75: Barbaric Cults, Their Leaders & LDS Connections!? Feat. Hidden True Crime

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

You do not want to miss this episode! We have two very special guests joining to talk about everything in the Cult Psyche realm and what that means– touching on FLDS, LDS correlations, you name it. We’re also going to discuss the psychological profiles of people like Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell, Ruby Franke, & Jodi Hildebrandt. Joining me is Dr. John Matthias, a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with almost 30 years of experience in both clinical and forensic work, and former investigative journalist and recurring contributor for NewsNation, Lauren Matthias, who are husband and wife. They have an amazing youtube channel and a podcast called Hidden True Crime.  Miracle Made Go to https://www.TryMiracle.com/AE and use the code AE to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Apostrophe Get your first visit for only five dollars at https://www.Apostrophe.com/AE when you use our code: AE. That’s a savings of fifteen dollars! Lumi Labs To learn more about microdosing https://www.Microdose.com and use code: (AE) to get free shipping & 30% off your first order. Athena Club Get started with Athena Club today by shopping in-store at Target nationwide Hidden True Crime - Lauren & John Matthias  Subscribe on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@HiddenTrueCrime  Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast/id1521619380 Twitter: https://twitter.com/HiddenTrueCrime  Facebook: www.facebook.com/hiddentruecrime Follow the podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serialouslypod/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise All Social Media Links: https://www.flowcode.com/page/annieelise_ SERIALously FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/SERIALouslyAnnieElise/ About Me: https://annieelise.com/ For Business Inquiries: [e-mail]

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly. It's me, Annie Elise, and today we are talking about cults. Now I have got some very, very special guests for you today, and they are the experts in everything psychological that goes into cults. One of them actually has done extensive interviews with some of the women from the FLDS compound. We have got a lot to talk about and we're going to be talking about different cults. FLDS, the Daybells, Eight Passengers, you name it. We are talking about it and we are going to have them weigh in and it's a really important

discussion to have today. The origin story of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not always going to be beneficial when you have extreme thinking members that want to go back to those roots. As far as the extremists that we're seeing in the news, after going to these conferences, first off off they are all connected and and that's what I want to talk about and that's what I'm actually really angry about and that's why I'm being so vocal on our on our channel about the issues I'm seeing over and over and over again because when John and I started our podcast organically about the Daybell case we actually said hey if we can help make sense of this and stop this from perhaps happening again, like it'll be worth it. And now we see

not just what happened to JJ and Tylee, but what happened to Ruby Frankie's dear children. And I think it could have even been worse had, you know, our not, you know, R, not, you know, R.F. not bravely escaped his home, we could have seen the exact same thing again. And so you asking this question is actually really important because we need to fight and figure out what the hell is going on. Joining me today is Dr. John Mathias and his wife, Lauren Mathias. Dr. John is a forensic psychologist with almost 30 years of experience in both clinical and forensic work, and his wife Lauren is a former investigative journalist and an actual reoccurring contributor for News Nation. They both have an amazing YouTube channel and podcast called Hidden True Crime, where they go over so many of these cases in depth and really give their professional opinion

on so many of these cases. I can't give their professional opinion on so many of these cases. I can't say enough how much I enjoy their content and how much I learn from every single episode that they put out because they have just such knowledge, such expertise, and they really are so insightful. It is absolutely fantastic. So I feel extremely lucky to have them here today joining me on the podcast and I am so happy that they are here. They are both just so well-informed. They have thought-provoking discussions. You'll see for yourself in a bit why they are just two of my absolute favorite people to speak with on these topics.

They also have been featured in a variety of Netflix documentaries, such as Sins of Our Mother. They have been featured on Dateline for not only Lori Vallow, but also Brian Koberger. They really are the experts in this field. All right, Dr. John and Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to have you here because I have a lot of questions. So thank you so much for joining. You're welcome. We're happy to be here for Kultober. Oh my, Kultober. So I didn't know a better name to do, but I have been long fascinated with Colts. I don't know why for years and years and years, there's just something very fascinating to me, not only about like the mind control, brainwashing aspect, but also the psychological piece of how these people fall for it and get wrapped up into it. So much so to

where in my mind, not in a serious way, but I've thought, I wonder if I walked right into the Scientology building one day, if like they would be able to brainwash me or if I were to go onto an FLDS compound, would I get sucked into it? Because there's just something so fascinating with it. So I'm really excited to have you guys here and have you weigh in on a lot of these questions that have just been on my mind forever. So we're going to kind of talk about a few different cults or alleged cults, I should say, today. And yeah, I just want to get your insight. To start, I would love to know from you guys, how would you define what a cult is truly from a psychological perspective? Okay, So yeah, great question. Let me just say

that cults are universal. They occur across cultures. They've occurred throughout human history. So I think your fascination is quite justified, Annie, that people, myself included, that I'm fascinated by cults as well. So don't feel aberrant in any way because you have this interest in cults because many people do. So I want to say that to start because it's a phenomenon. Okay, thank you, thank you. I feel great being reassured.

Okay. It's a phenomenon that really has universal appeal. But I want to approach it from, as you pointed out, from a psychological standpoint. There's other ways of approaching it, like sociological or political, economic. But I just wrote down what I felt would apply more to the psychological realm in terms of defining it, and this is what I would say. It's a group organized around a set of beliefs, ideas, or a person with a compelling, if not irresistible, emotional message with the underlying promise of utopia.

That's a really good description because I feel like that does summarize it for almost any cult that I think of and put into my mind. It is that promise of whatever it is you're going to obtain by joining them. Yeah. And I, so there's, there's two components to that definition. Exactly. I think when I thought about it,

I think it's really, most cults either implicitly or explicitly, they offer that promise of something better of some utopia, even if it's not well-defined. But I think that that's an important component. And the emotional component, too. Those two, I think, really stand out to me. I think there's always this underlying emotional appeal of being a part of belonging to a group or finding some sense of purpose. So from a psychological standpoint, I think that emotional component oftentimes isn't talked about as much as it should be.

But it's really that underlying affect of emotional component, I think, that many cult leaders are appealing to. And in that sense, perhaps, you might say it's a little – it can be irrational in the sense that people aren't really – yeah. I was just going to say, I think that's a really interesting point because you talk about the emotion and they're getting some sort of validation or fulfillment. And I guess, you know, for a lack of a better term, it's almost as though you think of these people as an easy target for these cult leaders. But with that, what would you say some of the common psychological profiles are of the individuals who get drawn into these cults? Yeah, and that's an interesting question. There's a lot of, so one thing about cults is it's not particularly well researched in the academic arena. So there's a lot of debate about cults and what they mean and what they do. And I did,

you know, I have repeatedly checked on some of the research. And interestingly enough, you think that it might appeal more to people with mental health issues or sort of these intrinsic vulnerabilities. But apparently, the research shows that a lot of people that join cults are normal people in terms of not having major mental health problems. I mean, they can. cults do appeal to that group, but for the most part, it could be your neighbor. It could be someone who is quite normal in terms of how we would perceive them. And so the research shows that the appeal of cults is usually related to some intrinsic vulnerabilities. So in other words, people might be depressed or they might be experiencing a failure, a loss, or rejection.

There's usually some type of turmoil going on in that person's life. So the way I would think of it is that there might be a crisis or turmoil or a low point in someone's life, so you have this void. And then what the cult does is it tries to fill that void up. So you have kind of this intrinsic vulnerability going on in the person's life for whatever reasons. And something that the person often feels like something's missing. And then the cult leader steps in and tries to fill that void or the, or the beliefs or whatever it is

that the cult is selling. And, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, that there there's different cults that appeal to different, have different messaging, right. And they appeal to different people, uh, for that reason. But, but I think the, the, the short answer is that even if for people, so people with mental health issues would be, I think, even more vulnerable. But typically you have people – the appeal of cults is this conflict or this turmoil or these problems that these people are experiencing, whether it's depression or maybe they lost a job, unemployment, some type of failure, some type of loss, maybe a parent died. It could be just something that kind of sets the wheels in motion, some crisis. And I think cult leaders know that, they sense that, they exploit that. And then they try to fill that void with meaning that's often,

you know, for somebody on the outside like us, we might look at it and say, well, this is ridiculous. This is like spurious meaning. It's not like substantial meaning, but I guess we all kind of have our own versions of what that is, what's meaningful to us, right? So cult leaders, I think they intrinsically understand that they can appeal to people's emotions to kind of fill that void that these people are looking to fill. I think it's interesting you say that because it is true. When I look at all of the different organizations such as NXIVM, it could be Scientology, the Sarah Lawrence cult, all of these things. It's like whoever is the leader is promising the sun, the moon,

the stars to these people to where they feel like they're either becoming an enlightened being or a better person all around or, you know, enhancing themselves professionally. So not only to fill that void, as you mentioned, but would you also say that it's fair to say once they're in it and fully immersed and they feel as though they're getting some sort of return on filling their cup, so to say, that it's almost a sense of belonging because now they're among like-minded people who maybe they view themselves as an outcast or a loner or a depressed individual. Now they're seeing their peers who are alongside of them. They're like, I'm not alone. So I do

want to cling to this group even more because there's now a sense of community. Or do you think it's more a solo type of mission for themselves? Oh, it's definitely, I think the sense of community is a huge factor in terms of indoctrination and keeping people in a cult. So I think that the three general variables that influence the appeal of cults would be identity. So cults appeal to someone's identity. If someone, again, if we go back to this idea that there's a void, then maybe there's a void in how someone knows themselves or experiences themselves. So there's kind of this void of identity. And then it appeals to purpose. So they fill that void

with some sense of purpose, even if it's, as I said, even if it's kind of a false sense of purpose or spurious sense of purpose. then the that gets to the component you just mentioned that they they will keep someone in the cult by this and you know appealing to the sense of belonging to the heart of something larger than themselves and um and i think that they will often cults will resort to certain techniques that kind of keep them stuck in the cold. It's not just belonging. It goes beyond that. I think that the two variables, I think that come into play in terms of indoctrination would be what I would

call exclusion and repetition. So all cults use some type of exclusion in the sense that they try to isolate people. They try to keep people away from other ideas, away from family. Anything that can interfere with their ability to make rational, conscious decisions, the cult will try to exclude that. So there's this exclusionary element in terms of let's keep the person isolated. Let's keep them in here. And then so they, in other words, they create a bit of a vacuum, I think. And then the next part would be repetition.

So once you have that vacuum, you need the cult's messaging. So the cult, through this process of exclusion and repetition, you get this constant messaging of whatever it is that the cult is trying to accomplish. So, for example, with Jody Hildebrandt, if we say that's a cult, you get this constant drumming of distortion. You're in distortion, you're in distortion, right? And that's where language becomes important too, that the cults often have kind of their own unique language

and their own kind of cult speak. And they use that a lot to really, you know, to really reinforce the messaging that they're trying to reinforce. So the idea of this vacuum, I think, is important here. You want to create a vacuum by excluding everything else from the person's life, and then you want to bring in the cult's messaging, and you just want to hammer that home. So that's, you know, if you look at like some of the POW camps during major wars like Vietnam, that's one thing that the prisoners were subjected to was that, you know, they were also exhausted. So there's a physical component in terms of trying to keep the members kind of off guard and they don't sleep well and they have

peculiar schedules. And all of that helps with rep, when you, when you repeat a message over and over, all of that helps to kind of drum it home because they're more vulnerable. They're more likely to believe it or open themselves up to this. Even if it's false messaging, they're more likely to adopt that messaging. Um messaging if they're drained, if they're exhausted, if they're vulnerable. And so I think exclusion and repetition and maybe to a lesser degree, this component of chaos, of keeping people kind of off kilter a little bit. I think all of that kind of helps keep people in a cult. I want to add something too, just to like, my job is to take all the interesting things he says and

like dumb it down, you know, make it more, make it simple. We love that. We love that over here. Break it down for us lay people. I'm like, so what is really saying? No, he actually shared that really simply, but I think we can all think we can take these factors into our personal lives as well. If we're a part of a group, and it could be something as simple as a Facebook group. If we're a part of a Facebook group, and when we start questioning some of the things that are being taught in the group, and the response is like, oh, you're a bad person. You know, you're in distortion. He used that example. But something even as simple as, you know, and then with the Daybell

case, of course it was, you know, Chad and Lori Daybell was, well, you're a zombie if you don't agree with us. But I think it could be something as simple as, you know, the nonprofit, OUR that Tim Ballard started. Tim Ballard's recently been in the news. And, you know, when you questioned that nonprofit before, you know, he was put out there as, you know, perhaps some shady business practices, it was, well, you're for child trafficking. No, I'm not for child trafficking. But I think that's like a simple way to say if you're in any group and you question the group or you question the leader and not even saying they're wrong, just, well, is this

the right, is this the best practice? And they jump on you almost in a gaslighting sense of like, well, if, you know, now this the best practice? And they jump on you almost in a gaslighting sense of like, well, if you know, now, you know, you're against us, you know, now you're listening to the wrong people or the bad people, or, you know, you are actually this person. I think it's a really large red flag because even though it might not be a cult, that's one day in the news. I think all of us can be susceptible to cults, even on social media, with our friend groups, with anything. If we can't authentically question things or share ideas or feel like if we go against the grain, we'll be shoved out. I think that's a warning sign in our lives as well, just whatever group we're a part of.

Well, that's a great point. And with something I was going to mention too, which my next question was going to be, at some point I would imagine in whichever version of a cult or organization it is, that somebody at some point at one, at some point in time raises their hand and they're all, this doesn't quite feel entirely right. Hurting children, starving children, or being forced to have sex with the leader, like marrying children, like something's not right here. So then I guess my question is, and I understand being in a vacuum and then being called one of their million names from the cult dictionary of distortion, suppressed person, whatever it is. But I guess it's like my question is too, I get how they could potentially

do the brainwashing, get you into the cult, indoctrinate you through the levels of exhaustion, as you mentioned, or starvation, things like that. But when somebody does raise their hand and assuming they're an intelligent person, not to say that people because I know intelligent people do fall victim to cults, but how do they then even continue to keep them and wrap them in? Like, how do you justify some of those things such as marrying a child off or having sexual relations with a child? If, if I were to say, Hey, I know I felt, I drank the Kool-Aid for a minute, but now this isn't feeling quite right. How would they psychologically convince me that it is right? I think a lot of cults don't want you to raise your hand.

So I think a lot of cults go to great lengths to not get you to raise your hand. There's definitely a culture of conformity. And also there's an appeal to authoritarianism in most cults in the sense that the leader is seen as being special, that the leader has seen as being special, that the leader has special insight or special access to maybe another dimension or plane of existence, that the leader is seen as powerful and all-knowing, right? So you have kind of this component where you're taught not to question the cult leader or

to question the culture of the cult, which is often driven by the leader. So I think this authoritarianism also plays a role in terms of, you know, there's a lot of cults where if you, there's been research showing that in many cults there's definitely this susceptibility towards authoritarianism and that the members are particularly, you know, they're particularly susceptible to those types of leaders. Where are your kids? No comment. They've been missing for four months. You have nothing to say? Chad and Lori Vallow-Daybell, their case has often led to more questions than answers. A mystery so strange and so violent that investigators are still

piecing it together. I did exactly what I felt the Lord Whistle struck me to do. Here's what we know about the Daybell case and how an Arizona hairdresser and an Idaho author ended up at the center of a web of five suspicious deaths and allegedly cult-like religious beliefs. Two children were missing and hadn't been seen since September. Da da da da da. Seven-year-old Joshua J.J. Vallow was described as having special needs,

including autism. Police said his 16-year-old sister, Tylee Ryan, was devoted to him. The FBI and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children were part of the search. But police said the children's mother, Lori Vallow, wasn't helping to find them and had never reported them missing at all. Chad, where are Lori's kids? Chad wrote about his ability to communicate with people on the other side of the veil

and see into the future after having two near-death experiences. His ideas also included the existence of past lives and that people could become possessed by demons or zombies. Ideas that Chad and Lori had about reincarnation weren't just a theological idea. They set Lori and Chad apart as significant figures. They didn't just teach that the second coming was near.

They taught that they would be the leaders in a movement leading up to the second coming. Investigators searching Chad Daybell's land discovered JJ and Tylee's remains. They thought that they would be the leaders in a movement leading up to the second coming. Investigators searching Chad Daybell's land discovered JJ and Tylee's remains. I have a question, though, with what Annie's saying. I have the same question, Annie, that you do. I'm like, yeah, yeah, let's hear. Is there a bit of a, would you have to lose a bit of your sense of self to go there?

Because I know what you mean, like, Annie, with Lori Vallow Daybell, like, okay, you know, you're you're going along you know you're believing your kids are zombies I'm doesn't it get to the point though when all of a sudden Chad Daybell and you're talking about you know killing kids that all of a sudden like reality should seep in you should have an aha moment and be like oh maybe this isn't right yeah so I know what you're saying again what what has to happen in order to get there? And I've interviewed people in cases, Annie, where, yeah, it comes to a point where they are in a cult and that aha moment comes, you know, like, oh, wait a minute. They're asking me to drink Kool-Aid. Okay. You know what? I've been in a cult and all of a sudden now it's clear I'm walking away. But so to go with what Annie asked, is it like a loss of sense of self or what?

I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I think at some level group group identification overtakes any individuality. There's definitely again, this this culture of conformity is a massively important component of any cult. And I mean, the question you're asking though, is how part of what you're asking is how does a cult move into kind of criminal arena? And the answer is that when, when the culture or the beliefs of the group or whatever it is, the driving principles start impinging upon social rules or norms, kind of pressing that boundary, then that's right. I think there's maybe a tipping point where an individual has to decide, you know, am I going to stay within the bounds of the rules and kind of social normality, or am I going to deviate

and go with the cult, right? And it's easy to go with the cult in the sense that this group identification with the cult is so strong and everything they've done in that culture is to get you to conform and believe and not to deviate. So I think at some level that the members are much more likely or willing to overlook social norms in order to advance the causes or goals of the group, of the cult. And like the example you point out is with Daybell, that if somebody tells you, hey, this group is about killing zombies, and you think, well, okay, that's bizarre. Not if I want to be a part of it.

You know, that's bizarre. But killing zombie means I'm killing human beings that have zombies in them. So, you know, maybe I'm going against the grain here. Like, you know, maybe I'm going to engage in something like murder. And I don't know, like you said, Annie, that, you know, some most normal rational people would step back and think about that. But if you, in that particular instance, if you see your mission consisting of going to this new Jerusalem and creating this new world, and you believe that the end of the world is imminent, then murder isn't going to be that necessarily, it won't be that bad.

You can normalize it. And so I think that's what cults do. They try to normalize. Not only do they step over these social boundaries, but they normalize those behaviors and say, hey, look, this isn't really that bad. This is just a part of what we're doing and our beliefs and our mission.

So don't worry about it. Just let's go out and kill some zombies. It's very special. It reminds me of out and kill some zombies. It's special. It reminds me of the peer pressure talk you get as a child. You know, you want the earrings the popular girl has, and then your mom's like, well, if your friends jumped off a cliff, would you want to do that too? No, Mom.

But it gets to the point where I'm like, but that happens. You know, that's how far it goes. That's the process of indoctrination. It doesn't happen overnight. It's a series of small steps that lead to jumping off the cliff. So by the time you jump off the cliff, you don't realize the severity of what you're doing. So if you're taught that,

if you really believe that zombies are inhabiting people's bodies and your mission is to dispose of zombies, then you can cross that line without thinking about it too much. So, I mean, I know it's crazy. I mean, a lot of people wouldn't cross that line. Thankfully, a lot of people wouldn't cross that line, but many people would. So. It's interesting too, because I feel like with the diff, some of the different organizations, it's almost as though if people do raise their hand and try to leave or if they're realizing that things aren't, they're not on board entirely with what's going on, some organizations go to

the extreme of holding you captive, threatening you, intimidating you, such as NXIVM did that, Scientology did that, different ones. But then it's like, to me, it's almost more scary to be dealing with a Chad Daybell type person who has such power and mind control over you that maybe there aren't even any physical threats to your person or anything like that. And they still just have complete ownership over your decision making and your actions. It's really frightening to think about. Those people, to me, feel even more dangerous than maybe David Miscavige. I don't know, because he's at least taunting and doing something physically, but it's almost like Chad doesn't even need to do that

because he was so powerful with his words. Yeah, that's interesting. Right. You can see, right, with Miscavige making threats of violence, you can see who he is. That doesn't mean that the members of that group would want to see that or they'll probably see that as being a part of their culture. So they'll normalize it. But yeah, that's true that somebody like Chad Daybell, who, you know, one of the initial reactions to Daybell was, oh, this guy's so quiet. He's so unassuming, right? So in some ways, a lot of people wouldn't see Daybell as a threat just because of how he presents himself. No. A potato with a dad bod. I mean, yeah. Like the Peter Griffin from Family Guy. He's like, you would never look at him walking down the street and be like, man, that guy

right there, he looks like he's a powerful prophet and a cult leader. Like, no way. He looks like he chops at powerful prophet and a cult leader like no way exactly even he looks like he shops at the gap yeah no way right if that does yeah oh my gosh well okay so i want to get into a couple specific cults because we've talked a little bit just kind of making some references with flds warren jeffs of course, Jodi Hildebrandt, everything going on with 8 Passengers, Daybell. So I have a couple that I want to just dive into specifically and get your thoughts, starting with FLDS. Now, at the point in which this episode airs, I will have aired my deep dive on FLDS, which many people have been requesting. And as

you guys, I'm sure, are familiar, it is absolutely horrifying. And my father is Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs is the FLDS leader and prophet. He is considered next to God in our religion. My father has around 80 wives and he has 53 kids. The FLDS is a religion denounced by the modern-day Mormons for their practice of polygamy and very fundamentalist beliefs, but it actually goes much deeper than just polygamy. It's actually even been proven to include the sales and exchange of minors. Maybe not always for money, but definitely for status. And this religion forces 9 and 10-year-olds to marry their own uncles, their own blood relatives. Truthfully, it's a religion that views women as nothing more than a piece of property. So I'm curious to know, as far as like, and it's hard, I guess, knowing when you're not in it or you haven't been exposed to it, but there at such a young age? So it's almost as though they believe in the idea and the

prophecy more because they're like, these people have been in it for decades and decades and decades. Of course, this is real. How do you see that kind of statistic and breakout shuffling out? I'll let John answer the question you just asked. But as far as like the FLDS population, just so you know, I was actually the ABC correspondent in Hilldale in Colorado city, which is where Warren Jeffs, um, reigned, you know, years ago and, uh, have many FLDS friends actually. And I covered, um, you you know, the once Warren Jeff was imprisoned, I covered an election cycle where they actually elected their first female mayor, which was, as I said, it was, you know, made for the Hildale history books. So I'm very familiar with the FLDS

and indoctrination. And as you point out, um, some of the, some of the nonprofits there that I really support are people that understand that indoctrination from birth, because it's not like these women are going to leave the religion and the culture and the community they were brought up in, yet they still need help and their children still need help. And so there's like one nonprofit, for example, where their big effort is to say like, we will help. We won't just help women that leave the FLDS faith.

We'll help women in it because there's sort of this idea, this cult mindset and this indoctrination mindset that as you point out, you can't escape. If it's what you're born in it's what you know i always say normal is what one is accustomed to and they still are human beings with their own thoughts and their own feelings you know so i i guess i just want to lay that out there as a foundation but but you can yeah answer her question it's changed the culture has changed and the warren jeff's yeah. The culture's changed. It's Warren Jeffs. Yeah, and the culture has changed.

Exactly. And I think that's my point too. It used to be that reporters weren't allowed in there. And then I was able to go in there and make friendships. And there are many wonderful people within the FLDS community now that Warren Jeffs is behind bars. But interestingly enough,

some of them still believe in Warren Jeffs, but that he was wrongly imprisoned, but they're not necessarily following him it's it's very it's a very interesting dynamic now today but um yeah i'll let john yeah uh so um i would recommend there's there was a movie that was nominated for an Academy Award and this past year called Women Talking. It's based on a book and it gets into a lot of these issues. It's not specifically FLDS, but it could be. So it's kind of a look at these types of cultures that evolve over time, over a period of many years. And it's, it's, I think that I, so a group like FLDS, I, I don't think that, I think anybody who tries to enter that culture as an adult or later is probably going to be excluded.

It's that I think that this is the, so like that particular group, uh, I think I don't know if, number one, an adult could enter that. Easily. Right. Is it because the inside doesn't trust whoever is trying to penetrate their way in? Absolutely. And again, like I would recommend this movie, Women Talking. It's an extremely well-written and powerful movie about sort of the these types of cultures that that how do you and it's about women who kind of get together and say look why are we powerless why don't we have a

voice in this culture right that they start realizing the limitations of and and it also gets into issues around sexual assault of young girls, right, and male entitlement and patriarchy. And it's a really fascinating look at this type of a group, or let's call particular group, is that if you try to enter as an adult, it's probably going to be really difficult, if not impossible, and you're probably going to be seen as an outsider. But if you did enter that particular culture later on, I think you to want to fit in and to be a part of the culture. And that dynamic probably applies to anyone who's entering a cult later as an adult with a kind of an entrenched culture and dynamic that's already been in place for many years. And one more thing about the FLDS culture, because this is a culture I'm very familiar with and those that stay, and we actually have with your deep dive, Annie, you might want to look at this. I have a live interview with women that are FLDS on our channel. And not many people have actually even seen it because I did it early on and it's the one and only live

they've actually ever done on YouTube. And I did it with three of my friends and they explained their beliefs and it's certainly interesting and insightful, but one of the women is divorced. The other woman doesn't practice polygamy despite her neighbors practicing it. They do all wear the familiar prairie dresses. They share about their hairstyles. But I think the one takeaway from it is that they're remaining stalwart and steadfast in their faith despite the backlash, despite Warren Jeffs, despite the harsh news, because it is what they know. It's their community. It's their village. It's their friends. And I want to say one thing too, though, that's really important is that their distrust of society continues and deepens society outside of their cult is what I'm saying. It actually deepens as they see the harsh judgments,

as they see what people think of them. It was actually the most fascinating life to do because of the comments. Some people, how dare you have these women on? Other people saying they're just all brainwashed. Other people saying Warren Jeffs is evil. You guys still support him. I'm looking at it from an outsider going, well, no wonder these women won't leave. Of course. Because look at what they're going to go into. You're wrong. You're bad. I judge you. So I think we also have to look at ourselves as outsiders of something that's unfamiliar to us and wonder how we might contribute to them distrusting other people if we don't listen to them. But I remember

doing the interview thinking that I did come away with a little bit more understanding of that indoctrination and why someone won't leave. It's their family. And to come away with a little bit more understanding of that indoctrination and, and why someone won't leave. It's, it's, it's their family. It's, and to walk away from a polygamist group when you have children and sister wives and you're walking away from family too. You're not just walking away from a cult. You were like temporarily a part of like, okay, that was a fun chapter in my life. Moving on, memories for you know um this is their identity and i think it we just need to have a little bit more compassion for people that say you know i'm staying but but i'm my own person and i want to be able to maybe open myself up to outside society but um i need everyone else's help too to be able to trust and do that. So.

Well, I think that's a great point because as you mentioned, they'd be not only turning their backs on their children, their family, everybody they know, but also like you mentioned, they wouldn't be necessarily receiving a warm welcome on the outside. So it would almost isolate them even further. But I'm curious to know from you, Lauren, based on your time, not only interviewing the women, but when you were covering at the location and doing all these things, did any of the women share? I understand to an extent of that's what you were born into. That's what you were raised in. Your faith is in that. But when it comes to young children being married off, where now we know life expectancy centuries ago was much lower, but like now where we are today, how does somebody, regardless what your faith is,

continue to justify something like that and explain away that regardless if it's in your faith or not? I just, I'm, I'm still confused personally. So I'm wondering if you have any insights into that based on your discussions with them. Sure. Yeah. That was actually something we brought up. It was one of the first questions. Do you believe in child marriages? And the women quickly said no. So I think one aspect we have to look into is that Warren Jeffs reigned and ruled and it did happen. And I'm not going to deny that it did happen. It was terrible. That is what Warren Jeffs did. It's, um, may he, you know, I just, what is just horrific. It's horrific what happened in my heartbreaks for those children. Um, the women quickly said that they do not believe in that. Um, it, things did get complicated because they are of the belief that, that Warren Jeffs is not so bad and that,

that maybe the world has some misinformation. Right. So that's part of it. Right. You just nailed it. Like, okay. Like, so let's call it what dissonance, like cognitive dissonance a little bit, like not fully grasping, but, but I, I want to share a positive story. And this is actually a story I reported on. And I brought up during this interview is these women are afraid of outsiders for good reason, because nobody understands them and they're not going to receive a warm welcome. And there was a woman, Dr. Christine, I've had her on my channel a few times. She was once in a cult

and it was actually asked to harm her children, just like Lori Vallow. But when that moment happened, she said F no. And that, so like that whole thing you brought up there, like about like that moment where things become criminal. She was like, Oh my gosh,

I'm in a cult. I'm following a false prophet. That's also an interview we have on our channel. Look for the interview with Dr. Christine. She tells her story of being taken by a false prophet, being part of something. And then the moment when they're like, give your kids up for adoption, be done.

She was like, wait a minute. But because of that experience, she started helping in the FLDS community. And she quickly realized that there are many nonprofits trying to help this FLDS community. And she quickly realized that there are many nonprofits trying to help this FLDS community. And through this process, she learned that they weren't welcome to the nonprofits and the nonprofits were really focusing on the women that were leaving the faith because once you leave, you're also isolated. And when you leave, you need help and you need resources and you need support. Like that is true. Like when you are leaving the FLDS community,

man, you need support and you need nonprofits to be there by your side to help you and your children. But the women that were choosing to stay for multiple reasons also didn't have help and they needed help and they needed support. They needed to learn how to be better parents. They needed support to be better parents. They needed to understand what signs to look for for abuse, right? So Dr. Christine focused on the FLDS women purely to help, you know, change society's view of them to try to make the welcome. She's the one that helped facilitate this interview on my, on my channel. And one of the reports I did while I was there were these FLDS women going to, um, St. George, Utah, a main, well, I don't know if, you know, it's a main city. It's of course where Jodi Hildebrandt is from, but, um, they became victims advocates. They became certified victims advocates through the university there. They learned. So as FLDS women, they went every day to St. George for their classes and their prairie

dresses, learning what science to look for, for abuse, learning how to help victims when they come forward, learning, um, what is appropriate and isn't. And they all became, these women became certified victims advocates through the nonprofit, you know, focusing on them and realizing, okay, you guys are going to stay, let's make it better. And so that's one positive story. These women are still part of the FLDS community, but they, through trusting others, through nonprofits focusing solely on the women that aren't going to leave, they're making it better for them. And so that's one positive story. I think that when people aren't going to leave, and it is a lot more complicated than people think, we can still help and make those within the community a little

bit more wiser, better educated, and healthier. I think that's really fantastic and interesting. And I do have a question just with that before we move along into the next organization and cult. And this is probably very naive of me and ignorant, but I'm curious, could the perception from the outside world be that they're reluctant to support some of those nonprofits that go on within the FLDS community because it could be seen as enabling the behavior? Or for example, these women who are now victim advocates, are there people within the community who don't trust them? So now there's turmoil between them in the community. Or conversely, if Warren Jeff still was in place, say, as the prophet or Samuel Bateman or whomever it's going to be, even if they have all these resources, if at the end of the day, they're still following a prophet and believing,

knowing that these things are wrong, but following what they're doing, could that then be seen potentially as these nonprofits enabling that because they're not putting a stop to it necessarily? And again, that's just me out of curiosity. I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just curious if that would be seen as an issue. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head as far as where people feel the controversy is and where that's what people wonder. I think you, everything you just stated, I think, yes,

those are the questions. Would a nonprofit be enabling these women? I think that that's where, you know, my curiosity lies and why I've actually continued to learn about the culture as I've left and kept these friendships and why I've actually continued to learn about the culture as I've left and kept these friendships and why I have an interest in Dr. Christine's work and these women. It's complicated. I mean, I guess that's like the bottom line. It's super complex. Another interesting thing I want

to point out too is actually before the Netflix Keep Sweet documentary came out, there was a, another Keep Sweet documentary. It was literally that it was, that's what it was titled on the Discovery Plus network. I made a quick appearance in it as a reporter, but I thought that I recommend that documentary too to people because I thought that I recommend that documentary too, to people, because I think that that documentary sort of actually asked the questions that you're asking. And so it was really interesting to me. It sort of shared both sides and it followed another document, documentary,

uh, maker who actually went in there when Warren Jeffs was there. And now he's visiting after, and he talks about the friendships he's made and the confusion he feels and the, um, so, so when it comes to the questions you asked, I think that that's being explored by many people. But then I think what it comes down to, too, is this main question you're asking about indoctrination. I'm struggling. Indoctrination.

I love having a partner in crime so I can just be like, help me. Yeah. Is that, I don't know, I don't think these women will ever leave. You get to a point where, again, it's more than a belief system. It's your family, it's your neighborhood, it's your family it's your neighborhood it's uh so much so do we need some people on the inside that they trust from the outside on the inside that they trust making it better and keeping an eye on things i don't know i think that the larger question you're asking is about how people change and whether we can trust that process, right? Like ultimately, if we're going to ask cult members or, you know, FLDS members to change in some capacity, that we can't control that process, right? We can't tell them how to change or what to believe or what to do. We can only help guide them.

But if we're going to ask them to change, I think we have to trust. At some level, you just have to trust that they're capable of doing it. Otherwise, they're going to revert back. So I think if you think about it in terms of, so, you know, I work with felons that are getting ready to reintegrate in the community. It's the same type of issue. The question is, I mean, the question is a little different. Is this felon who killed someone 20 years ago going to go out and kill someone else?

And now they're eligible for probation. I mean, we're asking them to change, and they've been in the prison culture for 20 years, let's say, hypothetically. I think there's similarities there. Is the person or the woman in the FLDS group or culture, is she capable of changing? Is the felon capable of reintegrating into society even though he's been in prison for years? And can we trust that? Or is he a risk? You know, is the woman in the FLDS cult going to stay with Warren Jeffs? And we don't know, right? We can't really control it. But is it worth investing resources in that process of change and trying to help people develop more self-awareness and maybe improve their communities or better their communities so that they're not communities

based upon, I don't know, abuse or trauma. Right. Like that's, I think that's, to me, those are the larger questions. And ultimately, it would be nice to say, yeah, you know, they're, they're, they've divorced themselves from Warren shafts and they have no beliefs in that anymore, but we don't know. And we can't control that. Right. So change is always a really risky proposition and it's difficult and I'm sure it's quite difficult for any cult member. Yeah. I can only imagine how difficult it would be for

somebody like that to have the courage to leave, especially when it comes to having family and children involved. That would absolutely be terrifying. Speaking of family and children and all of that, I kind of want to switch gears a little bit here, back over to Lori and Chad Daybell, because I am very curious to know your opinions. I know not only do you know the case inside and out, you were there at the courtroom. You've been following it so closely. You know everything. I'm curious.

Do you think that Lori was brainwashed by Chad? Or do you think that she also has a piece of just deep-rooted evil within her? Or both? That is the question. Go off, because I am not a Lori Vallow fan. Neither am I. But no, I think you've asked the question that many people want to ask, but I am going to, can I turn this mic over to you? This is the question for you. I thought you were going to say something. Unload Dr. John.

Oh no, no. My only thing I want to say is yeah. Yeah, great question. Here you go. Do you have an hour? No, just kidding. Yeah, I know. I think you'd have to argue. So, you know, as a forensic psychologist, I can't sit here and say that someone's evil because that's not a term I would use in a professional report. It's something that Lauren and I may talk about.

Evil, evil. Evil, monster. Right. Evil, monster, villain. I think that with Lori, there's definitely... So if you go back to her earliest childhood and you look at her upbringing and her beliefs and her family of origin

and her fascination with like Julie Rowe and all these elements before Chad, you'd have to say that there's some predisposition to believing in Chad's stuff completely and wholly and fully. And so in that sense, I don't know if I call it brainwashed because I think she was already a bit brainwashed. I think maybe you could say that she became more brainwashed or extremely brainwashed or something of that nature.

But I guess the other side of that is I could also argue that there's a genetic component. And I wouldn't use the term evil, but somebody might argue that if you're born with, say, psychopathic traits, and I don't know if that would apply to Lori, but let's just say hypothetically she was born with psychopathic traits, then that would approach something like evil. So in the worst case scenario, you have someone who has this predisposition to being brainwashed or to at the very least believing these extreme beliefs and acting on them. And then you have this maybe genetic component

that predisposes someone towards psychopathy. So that's the perfect storm. That's someone who's capable of doing anything. I agree with you. And I think it's so scary too, because then I think of Chad, who many think was the mastermind behind everything that happened. And I'm curious to know what you think about him. I feel as though there are certain cult leaders or false prophets that truly i think believe what it is they're selling and what they're peddling and what they're pushing yeah but then i also know of some like keith ranieri and nexium who i don't think he believed

what he was selling for a second i think he was a pervert and he was like greedy he wanted money all these things so do you think chad believed what he was saying? Or do you think that this was all for his own personal benefit, getting, getting rid of his wife so that he could have this new hot blonde, getting the money she thought she was going to get from Charles, like get the kids out of the way? Or do you think he truly believed all of these things? I think more than likely he believed it. And I think that when Lori enters the picture, she helps radicalize Chad to some degrees. So I think that to do what they did at the level they did it,

I think that in many ways they have to be true believers. And that's not to say that he, that's not to say that, you know, like the money and the things you talked about, let's call them perks. That's not to say that he wasn't not to say that you know the like the money and the things you talked about let's call them perks that's not to say that he wasn't interested in those perks because i think he was but those perks were driven by the larger purpose or the larger mission which was that he was a true believer who believed that that lori and he would be a god and a goddess in the new jerusalem and i think they really believe that i don't you know it right and so in the new Jerusalem. And I think they really believe that. I don't, you know, right. And so in the sense that, that I don't think you get someone like Chad and Lori acting at the level they did

on those beliefs without being committed to that belief system. Okay. I'll add some things. All right, let's go. Okay. She's not going to get me going off about it, but maybe you can. No, I think it is complicated. So in many ways, I do think that Chad was the mastermind. But we did an episode on this actually discussing who broke bad. Was it Chad or Lori? Oddly, I think Chad's the one that broke bad.

I think Lori has a history of making some really hurtful choices, possibly criminal choices. You know what I mean? Did Lori have Munchausen by proxy, you know, when raising Tylee there, there are so many questions about, you know, Lori had a personality disorder, according to, um, the psychologist that assessed her that they talked about at the trial, um, referring to narcissism. Like there are a lot of issues with laurie going all the way back so this idea that she was this perfect mother and then broke bad i actually disagree with but despite that go ahead that's the jump into that's that's the narrative of the cox family and by the way

that was that was the narrative of the document that six documentary sins of her mother which i i somewhat disagreed with i mean i'm not saying that that was the belief that Sky Borgman's perception, but that's sort of the story. She let the Cox family tell that story. How about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a good documentary. And I think, yeah, so the idea that Lori broke bad, I don't buy that, but I still, uh, I think Chad is the one that actually broke bad. I think he was living a very mundane life, you know, as a potato and gap clothing for a long time, but that's, that was his jam. That was him. And then he is the one that, right. He, he got a bit of power even before Lori, he was getting a platform on a vow and preparing a people and at these conferences that, you know, I went and spent three days at these conferences to find out what the hell they were all about because I'm like so fascinated.

Like I went to these conferences where he was a speaker and met all these people that knew him and he was getting power with his beliefs. And I think he was always actually a little bit bitter that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints didn't recognize him, that they didn't give him more leadership positions. Like he, he never was like high ranking in the church, but he found a place finally in these little conferences and, and as a book publisher and then as, as a writer. So he was like eating up this power and this little potato then was like, oh my gosh, I can have the hot blonde. I can have this power of wanting. I am special. And I do think he was a mastermind.

I do think he was the one that asked Lori to do the horrendous things that she did when it came to her children. But the difference is the reason she did it is she was like, okay. Like that's horrible. Like she went, she allowed it to happen um i also want to say when it comes to chad and laurie believing i do believe laurie believed and when it comes to chad john and i have actually had so many conversations about this over the past four years did chad fully believe was he just a con man like what in the world and i am of the belief right now that Chad truly believed,

but let's put this into perspective. He was, he was always a religious man. Always. He already believes the basis of Mormonism and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He's always gone to church. So if all of a sudden he starts feeling these grandiose, you know, the sense of, and he always has had a sense of entitlement and he's always probably, you know, been super narcissistic, but all of a sudden he's getting this validation. I think when you say something enough, you start to believe it. And then to say that too, because some people think that if by us saying, oh, they believe it, we're dismissing their responsibility. I want to say something to that too, because actually the fact that they still believe it or that they might believe it is worse because, and the judge said this at Lori's sentencing, you've shown no remorse. You are still standing

by this belief system. I mean, that means she is like hella high risk. Like she can't ever be let out again. If she still believes this, she could do this again and again and again. So by saying somebody believes something is not dismissing or lessening what it is. It's actually holding them like, it's actually even more frightening. And I think I just want to say that too. Yeah. And holding them accountable even longer. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. Like, okay, if they really believe this stuff, then they are super high risk and don't ever let them into society again, you know, and may justice be served and throw away the key. So I think I want to throw that in too,

because oftentimes we'll get that response like, oh, you're excusing them because they believe this. It was all about sex and money. I'm like, yeah, it was about sex and money, but it was also about, you know, ruling the new Jerusalem and, um, being absolutely so narcissistically delusional that you should be locked away forever. Well, and I guess that's a question too, because I agree that I do think they both had to have believed it in some regard, but for Chad to believe. And when you had said dr john that chad believed that he and laurie were going to rule the new jerusalem be the new goddess and all these things it's like so how did he get there i i wonder is my question like do you you don't just wake up one morning and think you know what i'm gonna lead the hundred and forty four hundred thousand i'm gonna be a

goddess leading the new jerusalem like how does one jump from a to b and actually believe that about themselves if they're not the one being brainwashed by somebody else to think that like how do you just come up with a thought like that where it's so hard to wrap your mind around where i can understand why people were like no he had to have been a con man because nobody just comes up with that out of thin air. Again, I think that with Chad in particular, there's an evolution going on in terms of, you know, I sometimes jokingly refer to Chad as the accidental cult leader in the sense that he starts reading Julie Rowe, like, well, he publishes her book, but he also reads her work around 2014-ish. And then he starts speaking at these various conferences, and he starts getting attention.

It's this tidal wave that's building. He's loving this attention. He feels like he was slighted by the church. He's now getting the attention he feels like he deserves, not directly from the powers that be in the church, but from these fringe groups he's involved with. He is going back and, you know, memory is not photographic. Memory is reconstructive. So he's going back and claiming that he had these near-death experiences, which broke his vow, which allows him to see the future. And that's the basis for everything. That gives him the authority

to be a prophet in the sense that he can now see the future. So he's kind of rewriting history. He's reconstructing memory, and he's going through this process with Julie Rowe and these fringe groups that are making him feel important and self-important. And he's going through this process with Julie Rowe and these fringe groups that are making him feel important and self-important. And he's starting to believe it, I think. So all of these things are reinforcing each other. So it takes years, but after a period of years, he's giving speeches before he leaves Lurie in October of 2018. He's giving a speech to what? Preparing to people. And he says in that speech, everything I've written is real.

These are facts. These are going to happen. I know this because I'm a prophet. He's essentially, so he's essentially telling us in that moment. And I would imagine they're going to use it in the trial, but he's telling us that he believes it. And to reiterate,

he's talking about the speech he gave the day he met Laurie. In his book, in his autobiography, he basically says, I just download information from God. Like I'm not creative. This stuff is real. I know it's real. I get it from God. But it doesn't happen overnight.

I think around 2012, he probably doesn't feel the same way. But by 2018, 2019, I think he's all in. But it's a gradual process. And I think that he's getting reinforcement from, I don't know if they call them cult followers, but whatever they are, from these minions that surround him. They're telling him how wonderful he is, how great he is, that he can see the future. They're really buying his you know, his stuff. So all of that is just, is creating a bit of a monster. I know I wouldn't say the term monster, but I did.

We finally broke you. You broke me. We finally broke Dr. John. You won't see that in one of my reports. So I want to kind of now shift a little bit over to Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. Jody Hildebrandt was taken into custody in Ivins, Utah, last week after police said Ruby Frankie's son climbed out of a window at her home with duct tape on his ankles and wrists. Police said the boy was malnourished and taken to the hospital. He's emaciated. He's got

tape around his legs. He's hungry and he's thirsty. Hildebrandt and Frankie face six counts of child abuse each. Neighbors and viewers of Frankie's YouTube channel, Eight Passengers, say they've been concerned for years about how she treats her children. And get this, on Thursday, the Daily Mail is reporting that during a hearing over custody of Ruby Frankie's minor children, she claimed that one of them molested their siblings and other neighborhood children over several years. The reporter said that Frankie sobbed during the interview. On the YouTube parenting influencers and life coaches arrested for child abuse. Ruby Frankie and Jodi Hildebrandt were known for their tough love approach.

This morning, new accusation from Hildebrandt's relative. You know, their arrests were shocking to millions of Ruby Frankie fans, but there had been growing concerns about the momfluencer and her partner, Jodi Hildebrandt. I'm not even going to let you eat breakfast until you get your chores done. So it says, quote, medical personnel removed the duct tape and located open wounds. The victim informed officers and medical personnel that the wounds were from the rope that was used to tie the victim to the ground.

The victim then informed officers that Jody put the ropes on their ankles and wrists and that they used cayenne pepper and honey to dress those wounds. Before we jump into some of my specific questions there, I do want to just kind of make a note. As I'm looking through this and thinking through it, I have seen a lot of comments on my channel in the past too about how so many of these organizations feel like they're rooted in LDS and then they branch off into these own things. Now, I have a lot of friends who are

Mormons, who are good people, who are nothing like this. So I definitely want to just kind of make a statement that by no means are we trying to say that if you're LDS, you're going to be in a cult or you're going to be more susceptible to branching off. But, you know, I've seen crazier comments out there. So I just want to make a statement. Is there anything you guys before we move into this want to share on that? Because I know that seems to be a topic in general out there, not only just different cults being rooted from LDS, but also so many crimes that have been unfortunately popping up lately. When it's familicide and different things like that, a lot of them, unfortunately, happen to be practicing LDS members. And not to say again that they're bad or worse, but I'm just curious to know if you have any thoughts on that as well, because it's something that's being talked about a lot in

the true crime community right now. It is being talked a lot about. You're right. Do you want me to start? Do you want to start? Why don't you take that? I know. I know it's a sensitive one. Sorry. And if we need to edit this out, we can. But I am curious to know what you think. No, it's a great question. I actually will share that my belief background is that of LDS. So I know exactly what you're talking about. And it's really interesting because as we report, I personally get people that are LDS writing me saying you're being too hard on the LDS church.

And I get people writing me that are saying you're not being hard enough on the LDS church. And I think, well, maybe I'm doing something right because I'm trying to be a non-biased journalist. And if I'm getting, you know, anger from both sides, maybe I'm doing something right. Because it's what the question you asked is actually really important. And nobody can hide the fact that a lot of crimes right now are being committed by members of the church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints that people are discussing you, us, every everyone. So it's like, what is going on? Um, and I think part of my background is what intrigues me about cases like Jodi Hildebrandt and Daybell and why I actually did like fly in and spend three days at a conference because

I am trying to understand exactly what you just asked. Like what is going on? So a couple things, and this is what I feel. So, and John can then, John does not have an LDS background at all, but, uh, certainly, uh, being married to me, um, you know, we, we talk a lot about it so he can pull in his psychological stuff, but I think a few things. So first off, um, the origin of the Mormon church, and you have to look at origin stories. John will agree. And we've talked a lot about this. The origin story of the church of

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that of a vision that Joseph Smith in the 1800s sees a vision and is called of God to restore the church in the latter days, the last days. So that is the origin story. And while there are many progressive members and many members that simply worship on Sundays and it's about Christ and helping others and loving others, if you take an extreme person and you give them this origin story, there could be problems. So I do want to be honest and say that the origin story of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not always going to be beneficial when you have extreme thinking members that want to go back to those roots, if that makes sense. And I think that's the biggest issue and why we might continue seeing this. As far as the extremists that we're seeing in the news, after going to these conferences,

first off, they are all connected. And that's what I want to talk about. And that's what I'm actually really angry about. And that's why I'm being so vocal on our channel about the issues I'm seeing over and over and over again. Because when John and I started our podcast organically about the issues I'm seeing over and over and over again, because when John and I started our podcast organically about the Daybell case, we actually said, Hey, if we can help make sense of this and stop this from perhaps happening again, like it'll be worth it. And now we see,

um, not just what happened to JJ and Tylee, but what happened to Ruby Frankie's dear children. And what, and I think it could have even been worse had, you know, our not, you know, RF not bravely escaped his home. Um, we could have seen the exact same thing again.

And so you asking this question is actually really important because we need to fight, figure out what the hell is going on and talk about it. And in these preparing to people groups and and in this, it's now, preparing the people is no longer because Chad Dable gave him a bad name. So they've rebranded to like Latter-day Media. So let's take Latter-day Media. Let's take the FIRM Foundation, the Book of Mormon Evidence Conferences, and preparing a people. And I want to say, yet none of them are actually officially sponsored by the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These are like-minded LDS members starting these

conferences with like-minded beliefs. And it is an echo chamber and it is, they are gathering people and it's easy to find one another on social media. And I, in my opinion, and I'll say it with my background, I think that they are highly responsible for this extremist movement and nothing, not, not enough has been done. Um, they all know each other. They all teach dreams and visions and how to have them. They all are trying to go back to this origin story and say, we can have these same powers. There's a lot of the Messiah complex. Um, Jody was speaking at the same conference as tim ballard and tom harris so tom harrison writes visions of glory visions of glory is the book that laurie was reading poolside when she was handed you know um when she was handed papers in hawaii

visions of glory was essentially chad and laurie's entire belief system this book is all about visions and glory tom harrison started and laurie's entire belief system this book is all about visions and glory tom harrison started the eternal core conference that's another one which then you have jody hildebrandt and tim ballard speaking at those they all know each other they're all intertwined i know that tom harrison was meeting with julie roe and ch Chad Daybell in his office. I'm just saying that Mormonism does not teach these awful, awful things, but the origin story is what it is. And that's a problem for these extreme groups. And then you have these extreme members and it is growing exponentially at a rapid rate. And they are all, it's an echo chamber and they are exponentially at a rapid rate and they are all,

it's an echo chamber and they are all reaffirming and they are all teaching visions and these people are all connected and it is not good. And I can see John probably wants to jump in, but I just want to say that bit. And I say that as someone whose faith background is in the LDS. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Yeah, and so my take as someone who's not in the church would be that my understanding is that the church is kind of a living, breathing, evolving entity with a living prophet, right? And so I think for me, I'm just going to oversimplify this, but for me, I think you have two elements here. Lauren mentioned one, which is that the church starts with visions, with a vision, right? And then you

have this entity, the church, which is this living, breathing entity that has a living prophet, and it's still open to new scripture. So I think that's part of the issue here is that when you get a Chad Daybell who feels like he's neglected or not taken seriously by the church, that he can claim he's a prophet when he has these visions, which are consistent with the vision St Joseph Smith had, for example, he can claim he's a prophet and he can claim he's adding scripture to the religion because that's what the religion is sort of open to or what it invites, right? So I think this is a religion in particular that might be more susceptible to fringe groups or extremists because it's not closed, because it's evolving,

and because you can take any weirdo or wacko that is having visions, that feels like he's Joseph Smith, and that he should be taken seriously by whoever. I mean, even if it's not in the mainstream, right? He can argue, he or she would argue that these visions should be taken seriously, and hence they could start their own fringe group, right? Yeah, a lot of the belief also with this extreme group rules is around, well, the leaders, because the religion is progressing,

and most religions do, everything changes. People don't like that, but everything changes and evolves and becomes more modern. They don't like that, and so there's this idea that the members or the leaders of the LDS church are falling away and that they've lost the truth and they've lost their way and they've lost visions to, to conclude. I want to, I want to say this too, though, that I agree with you, Annie, like members of the church of Jesus Christ,

there are many good members and they, they want to follow Christ and his teachings and serve others and be good and that the church makes them, you know, brings them joy and happiness. And I think I do want to share that because so often on our channels, we get, you know, Mormons don't do this. This isn't, you know, what it's all about. And that is true. That is true. But I'm also not going to shy away from looking at the problems because I am upset that we keep seeing things happening again and again and again. And there's something going on that's wrong. You know, something's in the water and it's not right. And we need to fish it out and figure out what's going on. And to also say, clarify, like, yes, many religions start with visions. So

it's not just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints either, you know. Most religions have a magical beginning to it. So it's not like only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but there is something in the water. There's something that's happening and it needs to be looked into. Well, thank you. I appreciate both of you sharing your perspective on that because I know I'm sure I caught you a little off guard with that question, but it's something that as we were talking through it, I just felt like so many people are curious about this and it's something worth discussing. And to your point, there are fantastic, great faith-based Mormons that I know and so many people, any viewer or listener

knows too. So I don't want people to get confused and think that everybody's lumping LDS together. But to your point, it's important to realize that there are certain extremists now and fringe groups, as you put it, that are now kind of taking things to the next level. And with that, that's actually kind of a perfect segue into Jodi Hildebrandt for those who aren't familiar with who she is and what her backstory is and connections. So before we go into the situation that happened with Ruby Frankie and with her children and her connection with Jodi, can you just kind of give a synopsis to of you said how Jodi is connected with all these other people who are in these organizations and doing these, do you believe connections, her belief system and her distortion and organization?

Do you see that as a cult or do you see that as something different? I see connections as a cult. What do you see it as? I think so. I think it's, it's a, it's confusing because the religious component, she doesn't really make public as much. But I think it's there. I think if you dig a little deeper, you definitely find that. But this idea of utopia, though, if we go back to that, you know, I saw the clip that you had sent, Annie, and thank you for doing that, about the mental fitness trainer group. And, you know, the utopia she's selling is apparently happiness or bliss, right?

And she's doing that in many different ways. But, like, this mental fitness thing is crazy. So I would, I would encourage people to go to your show where you talk about that. We, I didn't know that clip existed by the way. So thank you for your, our go-to source when we need to really get up to speed on certain cases and

information. And we appreciate that. So thank you for what you do. But, but I love that clip. And because it's, it's, it's, it shows the cultish nature of what she's up to. And it shows like, you know, we talk about the exclusionary criteria. There's this one guy like sitting in the background, right. Who's going to come in and role play for this group

of women that are all mental fitness trainers. And it's really peculiar in the sense that, you know, I just have the feeling like this guy, I don't know what he's supposed to do. You know, is he, is he, you know, is he supposed to represent that all males are bad? And, you know, is he going to like yell at them and they're, they're going to set them straight? Like, right. It's bizarre in the sense that why is this one dude just kind of, you know, sitting there like this dupe, not doing anything.

I don't know, right? It just has the feel of that particular group and the group in general. I think she's peddling like bliss or happiness, but it has the feel of a cult for sure. I agree. The whole living in truth. Sorry, go ahead, Lauren. No, go ahead, Annie. I was just going to say from an outsider's perspective who, you know, I would like to consider myself well-versed, but definitely not professionally well-versed in any of this.

But seeing somebody peddle this living in truth, not being in distortion. Here's how you can achieve this. Also, to your point, this very bizarre hatred toward men and almost as though the men are the people who are addicted to sex, pornography, like all of these things. And it's very bizarre to watch because from an outsider's point of view, it's almost like, okay, you're hating them a little too much. What's really going on here? Like, I've got my own opinions on why, you know, why you think everybody's addicted to different things and all of the, you know, but she definitely, in my eyes, seems like a cult leader. And kind of with that, I guess my question too, is with Ruby Frankie, do you think that she just kind of had traits of maybe a narcissist or was susceptible to this? Because how on earth do you get roped into this

organization with your husband to what you would think are strong individuals who have children, who have conviction, and then you both start these atrocious parenting tactics to where now it has escalated to where it is today like how do you get from point a to b and how do you even reconcile that i know and doesn't it kind of remind you of the daybell case a little bit a hundred percent yeah i know it's like deja vu yeah we're like watching it again but in a different with different characters you're like and thank god he escaped because to your point earlier i think you briefly touched on it had he not escaped and had things progressed and gotten worse there's no doubt in my mind that they would have tried to conceal bodies do whatever they could do to get away with it like thank god

it was exposed when it was it's so so scary. I agree. I agree. As I said in the probable cause that, you know, their lives were in danger. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that Ruby's playing the role of Lori and Jodi's playing the role more or less of Chad. I think Jodi's much more aggressive than Chad. She likes that role.

Jodi might not have broke bad. Yeah, I think she likes being the Chad in the equation. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, Ruby's role, I think, is so complex. There's so much going on there in terms of her family history and that would be such a long discussion. But did you have any thoughts on Ruby? I don't even know where to start. Truly, that's how I see her, like a narcissistic sort of mother with some really horrible parenting skills. But I do wonder, you know, you do say, like, were they two strong individuals who got swept in this? I start to wonder how strong of a sense of self she really maybe had. I start to wonder about her past.

I've delved in. I think one thing that can definitely be said about Ruby Frankie and her channel is that her channel was definitely a facade. It was definitely something that was curated. And, you know, she tries to present this image of the perfect family or, you know, even, I mean, not more than that, there were flaws in the family, but for the most part, it was a pretty tight-knit family, right? And this is true of all the sisters, by the way. But it's so fake, right? It's so curated that you have to think that Ruby Frankie, to a large extent, is sort of leading this double life. And it's always fascinating to me to see people that can do that.

They can cultivate these different roles and different identities and move through life and act as if as if it's, it's doesn't matter. And it does matter. And so I think that one of the issues she confronts is trying to figure out who she is and not having a good sense of, you know, and this takes us back full circle to when we talked earlier about cults, right? That, that I think she's very susceptible in many ways to someone like Jodi because she has a really poor sense of self and she's kind of caught in this turmoil between this role on her channel versus who she is in real life and trying to reconcile those things. So I think there's,

there's so much conflict, I think, with Ruby Frankie that she's looking to somehow find a way out of that. Some personal things that I've just observed as someone who is interested in crime and people in psychology, but I am an armchair psychologist, not the psychologist, you know, here, but my own personal observations. I, I find the sister's statements about what happened very interesting and very surface and discouraging actually the way they don't when the sisters have come on their own channels to say, Hey, I want to talk about what happened and what this is. And we are not our sisters. I'm referring to those videos that they've put out there discussing the arrest of their sister,

Ruby, because they also have very popular YouTube channels that people watch these family channels. So it is relevant because they have these popular channels. These are their public statements. I find them discouraging and frustrating. They stay on the surface. They don't say anything. They just go in circles. I'm not my sister. Okay. Tell me more. You know, um, there was a recent video that, that one of the sisters, it was Bonnie again, that put out the said, okay, the day we told the children, have you seen this Annie yet? Yes. Okay. So I don't know your thoughts about it. This is a raw conversation, but she didn't say anything. I was like, I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for her to tell us about telling the children. And at the end, I was wondering,

did you not tell the children then? No. Because go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I've got a lot of feelings about that video and some others. I feel like it's being made with the intention of getting the clicks, getting the views, not sharing any information, exploiting the children and the situation all over again. When you should be one of the family members now stepping in to help protect them, I think it's foul on every single side you look at it. Thank you. You just said what I want to say. And yes, I watched the entire video,

the full video waiting for her to share about what she told the children. And I also came away though thinking, I actually, I don't think she told the children anything. And I actually do though, even more than just clicks, and I agree that it's about clicks, I also think this is how she's talking

to her children about it. I do, because I don't think that my point being is I don't think there is an open family communication. There is not open communication in this family. There is no conversation about emotions. So while it might just be for clicks, I also believe this shows the bigger issue in the family system, which is there is no conversations happening. These children are not being talked to by their parents. The parents are not, you know, the children don't dare ask the

parents question. There's no conversation about emotion. Everything is very closed. This is how they also function in real life. Yeah. I had the sense that when the sisters made their responses to the incident, that they were all about trying to save their channels. Yeah. So they were worried about losing their livelihood more than... Not about the children that were duct taped. They never once mentioned the victims. They never once expressed...

Even alluding to them. Right. It's crazy. They were essentially saying, hey, look, we have nothing to do with her. alluding to them. Right. It's crazy. They were essentially saying, hey, look, we have nothing to do with her. Still watch our channel. Yeah. And I think the problem with that, as you point out, Annie, the problem with that is.

So when I talk about Ruby's channel being kind of a facade, that's what I mean. That the children are props. The children are objectified. They're dehumanized, right? And they're there to help Ruby make money, and Ruby and Kevin make money on their channel, and they're nothing more than objects. And in that sense, right, and that's how you get to where they were. That's how you get to this child abuse.

You see it. They're showing us how they're doing that. And not just Ruby, but her sisters. They're showing us how they're doing that. And not just Ruby, but her sisters, they're showing us what they care about. They care about monetization. The kids are just in the background. They're nothing. I mean, it's disturbing. Yeah. The children are objects helping them in their channel. And yes, they didn't even allude to the victims. In the next video that you and I just discussed, right, she said absolutely nothing. And my belief is because if you, my belief is this is actually truly how the family functions. And the reason I

say that is because if the family didn't function that way, she would have been a little smarter with the video for clicks. She would have been able to hide it a little bit more. But like, I think that that is really who this family is. They don't talk. I agree. Everything's on the surface. I agree. And I think the person who has, in my opinion, has spoken out the most and who has actually conveyed the most information is Sherry, who has been outspoken for a while now, sharing her perspective on everything, but also kind of going back to it and like the persona that they put on on these channels. To your point, I remember I never had followed eight passengers, never followed

the YouTube. So when this all broke was really the first time I was ever exposed to any of them. And I remember looking into it and seeing some of the old archived videos and thinking to myself, this is pretty bold. And Ruby has to be pretty brazen to not only be putting her entire family's lives on display, but for the parenting tactics that she was even doing back then to be doing that in a way that's open to the public and feeling like what you were doing was right. Holding back the lunch from your child because they forgot it at school, taking the door off of the bedroom door, like all of these things where I'm like, I can now easily see where if you thought things were okay back then, so much so that you were putting it out on display for the world to see. If you have somebody chiming in your ear, not only that you're right, but also, hey, let's escalate it.

You should take it one step further to really be accurate in all this. I can definitely see how she just completely escalated very quickly, having Jodi right next to her, telling her all of this and helping her. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then there was this one comment she made where, you know, we're already, you and I both, all three of us appalled at her parenting tactics that we're seeing. And then she makes a joke about how she saves discipline for off camera. I'm like, Oh, you know, because what we're seeing

is really frightening. I have a hard time even watching it because watching like Eve's face, you know, when she's withholding something from her saying that Santa Claus isn't coming, like I can hardly, it's horrible. It is truly evil to not only do that behind closed doors, but then to be exploiting your child so that to get their reaction on camera as you're doing this so that you can get the interest of public. And it's sick. It is honestly sick. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. where they set up a fake rescue. I mean, it goes on and on. And I should mention, it's not just Ruby. No. Was it Bonnie that does the blanket training? I don't want to get this.

There's videos with Bonnie who's endorsing blanket training. I don't know if you know what that is, but we talked about blanket training when we discussed Shiny Happy People. I've heard a little bit about it, but can you elaborate for the listeners? It's straight up child abuse. So blanket training is when a parent takes out a blanket and they basically confine the child to the blanket. So oftentimes, I don't know, the blankets are fairly modest in size, right?

And we're talking babies. Yeah, baby. We're talking toddlers, or infants even and so when the when the toddler so you're trying to shape behavior essentially it's a behavioral technique but what you do is that when the child misbehaves or tries to climb off the blanket you take a wooden spoon and you slap them with it to get them to stay within the confines of the blanket and then then you, there's different ways of doing it, but essentially it's physical punishment and with very, very small, you know, with babies. And it's trying to shape their behavior.

It's trying to instill fear and compliance into the most vulnerable, smallest human beings imaginable, right? And they think this is fine. I remember seeing that on the documentary you referenced, Shiny Happy People. And just to kind of paint the visual for those who aren't familiar with the technique or seeing the documentary, it's not a blanket around somebody's person like a swaddle or anything like that holding them in confinement. It's laid out on the floor almost as though it's like a playpen somebody's person, like a swaddle or anything like that, holding them in confinement. It's almost, it's laid out on the floor, almost as though it's like a playpen, but much, much smaller.

And they allow, think of like tummy time with an infant. You allow your child to be moving around, wiggling around. If they go even a tiny sliver off of the blanket, bam. It teaches them to be scared and terrified, to always listen. And it reminds me of that one wackadoo lady. I always forget her name. Gwen, Gwendolyn, Gwen something with the big hair.

She was like the super skinny church lady. Higher hair. Yeah, higher hair closer to God. I can't think of her name too, but yes, I know who you're talking about. And she had a very similar technique in the sense of they would hold children in rooms for days on end.

And if they said anything out of turn or anything like that, they would take, it was a wooden spoon. And I want to say they used wires as well. And they would whack them each time. And it's like, that is outright black and white child abuse, no matter how you look at it and how awful for these kids at such a young age to then be trained this way. It's absolutely deranged. It is truly appalling. It is. And I want to say this, the journalist in me wants to give context. We've watched the whole Bonnie video of blanket training. She never once shows herself hitting the children or even says that that's what she does. Like most of their videos, it's just a bunch of jump cuts, right? They say one sentence and

there's a jump cut and they say another and there's a jump cut. And this blanket training video had a lot of jump cuts, which I think was when the kids were actually getting off the blankets and she was doing something to get them back on and to train the two children to stay there. So I do want to give context that she did not state that, but we have heard over and over again about what blanket training is. We've read books about what blanket training is. We've seen how different cultures, you know, mostly, um, you know, you know, the, the Duggars use blanket training. That was a big part of shiny, happy people. We I've read the books where it describes a blanket training is, and's what they say it is so like most of Bonnie's videos she doesn't say much you know she just says that I do blanket training it teaches them to stay on the blanket so they never move and then there's just jump cut

after jump cut and you're sitting there wondering what is going on when she's cutting that video and she's getting the kids back on how is is she training them? She never tells you. So I do want to say she doesn't say she does that because just the journalist in me, but I think we can all speculate as to what's going on. And that is a percentage, she'd even use that term. We all know what blanket training is, but yeah, that's true. It's possible she's not using the wooden spoons, but that seems to be a part of what blanket training is, an integral part of it. And as I pointed out in our discussion of that movie or that documentary, what's appalling about it is you're taking a six-month-old child, baby, and you're essentially changing their perception of the world forever, right? Like until they're 80 years old, that's the kind of impact it can have.

It's just so unthinkable. You're breaking them. You're breaking their spirit. You're breaking their trust. You're breaking everything about them. Why wouldn't you want your young child to be able to have the freedom and movement and be in confinement? It's sick. thing about them. Why wouldn't you want your young child to be able to have the freedom and movement and be in confinement? It's sick. Yes. And Bonnie uses that term too. She uses strict

obedience that she wants her children. No, I will be the first to say no infant or toddler should actually be obedient. Amen. We are there to teach them how to function in life, but that is not a time in their life where they learn obedience. It's a time in their life where they learn love, where they learn to explore, where they develop curiosity, where they develop, you know, knowing that they feel safe. Yeah. Let their imagination flourish and go. Totally. Yes. And if you teach them that strict obedience to whatever way, it's essentially developing a fear in them so they won't move. The only way to get an infant or a toddler to stay on a blanket is to instill fear in them. Bottom line, that's it. And it's breaking

their spirits so that they never veer off of the blanket and it's symbolic of their life. They will never veer off a blanket throughout life. They will never explore who they really are or what they really desire or what they really want because their mind will always be staying on the blanket in, you know, the most symbolic way throughout life. Yeah. It affects them throughout their entire life. I'm curious to know your thoughts on this because I've struggled personally with this, but I think that there's one aspect to it with Ruby, her sisters, the way maybe they were raised, how things in their life. But then when you bring Kevin into the picture now, although he's been estranged now for months and months and months, which I have my own opinion on as well. Do you think that he was drinking the Kool-Aid, so speak from connections as well that he equally believed this with Frankie I think that the reason he is estranged is because Jody had him kind of banished but like at what point as a father do you step in and say uh hi no I'm not

leaving my kids what like you are you fucking crazy what are you talking about right he at one point he was definitely drinking the Kool-Aid. So we've talked to several members of this group that knew Kevin and Ruby and saw them participate in the groups. They were in groups with them, and he was all in. So was he drinking the Kool-Aid? For sure. I don't know at what point she became estranged. I mean, you know, I think you're right that at some point Jody wanted him out of the picture so that she could take ownership of Ruby, if that's the right way to describe it. But, yeah, he was a big part of that group, and he subscribed to their methods, to their disciplinary methods and their beliefs.

And, yeah, I'm not quite sure that he deserves a total pass here. No, he doesn't. And the reason he doesn't, all you need to know is all you need to see. So I just can't get over it. You know, the recent, the Springville, Utah documents that have come down on those FOIAs and reading those FOIAs and hearing that his wife was just arrested. It's a strange wife that he wants to get back together with because his son escaped a house with severe lacerations, malnourished, made the 911 caller weep. His little girl was so afraid she resisted medical treatment for hours. And this man, Kevin Frankie, is concerned about police pressing charges against his eldest daughter, Sherry, because she might have gone into the house, you know, her house or her parents home to get things for her siblings that are now in state custody and gather things.

And all he can think about is how she needs to now be charged with stealing his stuff. In my opinion, that's all you need to know about Kevin Frankie. He doesn't get a pass. He doesn't get a pass. I agree completely. When I saw those documents come out about how he was worried and wanted the burglary charges because of the passports, and I'm like, your daughter was actually trying to do right by your kids which you should have been doing and you weren't this whole time it's crazy now do you believe that connections is obviously wider than just the Frankie family so do you believe that there are other families who were perhaps using this same model of discipline and it just hasn't been exposed

yet and maybe they still are or do you think that ruby's family was a one-off because jody was you know wanted to sink her claws into them for all the financial gains she possibly could and for whatever reason that's a good question it's a good question you know we we've learned you know from we've learned from other people that were part of connections and other people that had family members and connections we've learned from other people that were part of Connections and other people that had family members in Connections. We've talked to several people that people did say they were, so this is someone who has a family member in Connections that they started to see that they did not like how they were treating the children, their children. So from someone that like, you know, it wasn't Jodi taking care of the child, but this was a family that was doing

virtual stuff through Connections. They were so into Connect. They had the connections t-shirts, right? They were in, they were drinking the Kool-Aid. They were trying to get family members to listen to the podcast. They knew Ruby and Kevin. I'm just like laying that out. And the person that we talked to that was a family member of these two, this couple and connections, um, did say that they did not like how the couple was starting to treat their children they stated that they wouldn't go as far as to say it was abuse but that it was super disciplinarian and they expected a lot more other kids and it was really sad they felt it was really sad what they were seeing you know as far as that goes. But I think I wonder, and maybe this is a question for John, what he thinks. I feel like it maybe took Jodi to be in the care. You know, we know

from Jesse, Jodi's niece that, you know, appeared on Mormon Stories for that just heartbreaking interview that she did on Mormon Stories about the abuse she had at the hands of her Aunt Jodi. It seems as if Jodi sort of convinces a victim or someone she knows she can really manipulate into saying hey let me be the caretaker of the kids and that's when things really get bad but so i don't know i i gave two examples there like it's it's a great question i think that that's what we're still exploring and you're clearly still exploring it but what do you think john i think if you see it as a cult you'd have to say that there's more yeah families that are being abusive for sure, right?

Because that's sort of the culture of that group, and that's what Jodi's pulling for. So Jodi has no empathy. And for the most part, these families seem like the situation you just talked about, that the culture of the family was changing from one that was fairly lax to one that wasn't. And so in that sense, you're moving in the direction of abuse. So do I think that there's other families out there that are engaging in these types of behaviors? Yeah, for sure. That's actually a really good point.

I want to bring up another example is this is public on Jodi's Connections Facebook page where she does a therapy session with a woman, and the woman calls because she has a 17-year-old daughter and the 17-year-old daughter is longing for a connection with her biological father and so the mother doesn't know what to do. I mean, that makes sense. That's like the classic, right? The mother doesn't like the father who abandoned the daughter but now the daughter's 17 and he's coming around and she's saying, what should I do? And Jodi's response is, Jodi's response is, Jodi's response is, you're the mom and this dude was never her father. And you tell your daughter that if she's going to go see the dad, you're kicking her out of the house. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait,

what? Like, wait, wait, this is your therapy advice. So in other words, she doesn't care about this daughter, the 17 year old daughter that's also tormented about her identity with her father. She has no empathy. She's sitting here saying to this woman, this is your house. You own it. You own your daughter. And if your daughter is going to be like, I want to see my father, then put her on the street. And I'm like, wait, wait. So what? Like, so you're right. You're right. To reiterate what John just said, you're absolutely right. She is teaching this to families. Right. I feel like Jodi is the epitome of misery loves company. Like she's so unhappy in her own life. It seems that she wants everyone around her to be miserable as well, to have broken relationships, like detached from their children, all of these things. She just seems like such a

miserable person for apparently living in truth and having no distortion or whatever the hell she calls it it's just crazy to me like why would anybody look to her as though she knows all she's the life i would like to mimic and mirror mine after she essentially has nothing really except i guess like the teachings and the belief system. I don't know. I just don't see the appeal, I guess. I don't,

I'm not sure. This is where, this is where it goes back to Dave L2. What was the appeal of, of Chad? That's like the eternal and mystery. What is the appeal of Jodi? Like the eternal mystery.

I agree. Like what, how can these people of all people just pull people in? And right. When you see a therapist saying, be cruel, like ding, of all people, just pull people in? And right, when you see a therapist saying, be cruel, like ding, ding, ding, does not raise like a red flag. Yeah. If you go to a therapist that has no empathy, you should get out the door immediately because that's the basis of therapy is going to be, it's going to revolve around empathy and compassion and care. And so somebody who is a therapist that lacks those qualities, in fact, is going in the opposite direction of more sadistic type behaviors, right,

and objectifying kids. And she's estranged from her own children, by the way. She's estranged from her ex-husband. I think you're right, Annie, in the sense that she's really isolated herself. So I think this cult, because she can't do intimate relationships on her own, this cult is a way for her to feel connected and to feel powerful and loved. So you have that going on with her as well. Yeah. Well, I know I've kept you guys way over what I said I was going to do, but I feel like

I could talk to you for hours. So I would love to do this again sometime if you guys are open to it, because I feel like every time we talk, I just leave with so much more knowledge than I had when we started. So thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. Absolutely. Well, it is true.

We love you. We love what you do. And it is true that when we are starting in a new case, it is true. We, we love you. We love what you do. And it is true that, uh, when we are starting in a new case, we actually often say like, we're not necessarily in the business of the breaking news. We're in the business of like analyzing it once we've gathered all of the facts and have done a, you know, a deep dive. And so we often turn to you and your podcast to learn like the basics of like stories we decide we want to delve into. So we really appreciate your work. And tidbits that no one else has.

So yeah, we love what you do and we love your work and thank you for that. And also congratulations on, it looks like you went over a million subscribers recently. That is amazing. That's, that's an incredible milestone. So congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. And way to not exploit your kids in order to do it. Thank you. And you deserve it. Thank you so much. You're welcome. And way to not exploit your kids in order to do it too. You know what I mean? Thank you. Thank you. Never, never. Tell everyone where they can find you, your podcast, your channel. I'm going to have everything linked in the show notes and the description as well, but let everybody know where they can find you and any projects you're working on. Absolutely. You can find us on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, youtube.com slash hidden true crime.

You can listen to our podcast. It is Hidden, a true crime podcast, Hidden True Crime. We're on Twitter and threads, Hidden True Crime. Surprise. You can start to see the trend and Instagram, hidden true crime, facebook.com slash hidden true crime. So, so just Google hidden true crime. Our, our website is, you ready for this? Hidden true crime.com. So I love the consistency and right. And patreon.com slash hidden true crime. We do do do we do do bonus episodes

and we have a book club dr babe's book club i call him dr babe because i love that yeah someone got mad at me and he's a doctor someone got mad at me for always calling him babe on our podcast and i was i kind of brought it up with our hidden gems like hey you know i guess i'm not supposed to call him babe anymore and they're like whatever it's dr babes so yeah he has a doctor babes book club on patreon criticism that we were acting like we were 13 but um hey i think that's a testament to the relationship so it sounds like just a hater to me yeah so so uh yeah so patreon.com into crime so and we we are so looking forward annie to having you on our channel too. We admire your work so much.

Thank you. I'm very excited for that. I believe we'll be talking more for you, right? Yes. Yes, we will be. Oh, I've got a lot of thoughts. Of which we're so glad because we want to pick your brain when it comes to that. That's a case that we really didn't dive into.

So we hope to get a lot of insights from you. Yeah. All right. I'm excited. Well, thank you guys again so much. Thank you, Annie. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. And before we go, guys, make sure to snag all of those amazing deals from today's sponsors. All of the links are in the show notes below along with the promo codes. Snag those deals. They are amazing. And I'm telling you, you guys are going to be obsessed with all of these things all right thank you guys so much for tuning in to another episode of serialistly with me today I hope you found it valuable and informative I know I did it went longer than

I thought it would so I appreciate you sticking around but there was just so much to talk about and still really so much more I feel like we could be discussing. It's never-ending with a lot of these topics. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Please leave them in the comment section or if you are listening to the audio version of this, go ahead and leave a quick rating and review and leave your commentary and your feedback in the review section. All right, thanks again, guys.

I will be seeing you this Thursday for Headline Highlights and I hope you all have an amazing week and I will be talking with you very soon. All right, bye.