SERIALously - 311: David Miscavige’s Niece Jenna Joins to Talk About Her Escape & His Dark Secrets

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Starting point is 00:00:19 At Farber Debt Solutions, we can help you reduce your debt by up to 80% and save you money. Farber Debt Solutions, licensed insolvency trustees, get the truth about debt. Over the years, we've heard a lot about the Church of Scientology. Jenna Mascavage Hill spent more than 20 years in the church with her uncle. Well, thank you very much. As a child, I was only allowed to see my parents for a few hours once a week. There's not an exact criteria for evil, but I would definitely say, you know, somebody who makes rules that thousands and thousands of people can't have children

Starting point is 00:00:53 and runs a church where there's child labor, forced and coerced abortions. If that's not evil, then what is, you know? Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly. Hello, hello, hello. back to an all-new episode of Serialessly with me, your host, Annie Elise. And guys, today we have got a very special episode, a very important episode. For those of you who have been listening to my podcast for a while, you know I'm really fascinated with Colts. Like, I want to know how they

Starting point is 00:01:48 operate, how they tick, how they recruit, the mentality behind it. And I've done a lot of deep dives into Colts, too, over the years, whether it's FLDS, maybe a different, or one, maybe drinking the Kool-Aid, Scientology, all the different ones. And Scientology is one that we have talked about a few times on here. And we've talked a lot about David Miscavage, the leader of Scientology. And today, I am actually going to be joined by Jenna Miscavage here in studio, David's niece. Now, she was in Scientology since she was a very young age, and she is going to be sharing with me all about her experience in Scientology, how she escaped Scientology, David and his secrets and what he does behind closed doors. Also, if David truly

Starting point is 00:02:38 believes that Scientology is powerful and he's aligned with its belief system, or if he in fact knows it's a cult. We also, of course, are going to touch on Shelley Miscavage, where Shelly, nobody has seen or heard from her in years. Is that true or not? Was she complicit? What does she know? What was her involvement? Jen is going to tell us everything. And she's also going to talk to us about the darkness behind Scientology. And I think we're all aware of the darkness and how they pray on people and exploit them and use them. But it goes even darker and deeper, more than I ever knew, to be quite honest. And so she's here in studio. She is going to break it all down for you. We're going to talk through it all. And I'm just really excited to have her here because I think it is such an

Starting point is 00:03:29 important topic and something that needs to have a light on it as much as possible. Hi, Jenna. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you here because, as I mentioned already in the intro, I've been fascinated with Scientology for years. And it's something that I personally have been investigating, researching. I try to be very careful when I am, but when I came across your TikToks and how outspoken and brave you are and just the powerful statements that you are making, I just wanted to hear more and learn more from you and just have your personal experience. So thank you so much for joining today, truly. Of course. Thank you for having me. Of course. It's my pleasure. So what I would love to start

Starting point is 00:04:10 with is just a little bit, I guess, about your background. At what age were you in or do to Scientology? How did it all come about within your family? Yeah. So I was born and raised in Scientology. So my parents were already Scientologists by the time I was born. And when just before I was two years old, they joined Scientology's most dedicated organization or most dedicated like group inside of it. It's called the C-Org. And basically you sign one billion year contracts promising your soul lifetime after lifetime of servitude to Scientology, you are not allowed to have kids, although they had already, like, that rule came shortly after they joined.

Starting point is 00:04:52 Oh, okay. Yeah. So from that time forward, no Seward members were allowed to have kids. Did they ever have any more kids or no? No. Okay. Yeah. And basically you work like 15 hour days, seven days a week for Scientology.

Starting point is 00:05:06 You have little or no time off. You live communally. Everyone eats together. and you basically get paid $50 a week. $50 a week at 15 hours a day? Yes. I need to figure out what that math even computes do. Have you done the breakdown of that?

Starting point is 00:05:24 I mean, pennies, but. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the end, like Scientology is paying for where you live and where you eat, but usually it's like stacked up, like in dorm rooms stacked with bunk beds this high. Although when you're married, you get like, you share an apartment with another couple. And they're paying for your food, but also you're paying for all of your laundry, all of your

Starting point is 00:05:48 toiletries, all of your feminine hygiene products. You're paying for everything else. Even so, room and board, I mean, that doesn't equate to 15-hour days full-time and then getting the extra $50 a week. So you've mentioned really quickly. I want to talk back about the dorms and how it's stacked with bunk beds even before marriage. So what is that like? How many people to a room could there be? So for instance, like when I went to a Scientology boarding school, and boarding school is like a very loose term here, but I was in a dorm with seven other girls. And then we had one bathroom, which was connected to another dorm with seven other girls. Wow.

Starting point is 00:06:34 So like we were all using the same bathroom. We all had to shower every day. And it was like a scramble. if not impossible to be hygienic as kids and get everything done you were supposed to get done. What age did you start boarding school? So that started when I was six years old. And so you were pulled, where you pulled away from your parents and put into this boarding school with just peers? Or how did that work?

Starting point is 00:06:59 Well, the truth is that when my parents joined this, this C organization, it was in Los Angeles. And for like a year or so, like they were there with me. And I, like me and my brothers lived in the living room on bunk beds. But then they went, my dad went to the secretive international management base for Scientology. And my mom was doing other projects for Scientology. So I only saw them for a few hours once a week. Wow. That's so tough as such a young girl.

Starting point is 00:07:31 Yeah. So I would be in like Scientology nurseries during the day with a bunch of other Scientology kids. And then when I was six, there was basically a boarding. school that was at Scientology's international management base. And where is that located? It's in Hemet. Okay. Yeah. And so the boarding school was about 20 minutes away. It was at the back of an Indian reservation. And it was a couple of acres. And they're wound up being like 80 to 100 kids there. And we would be there all week. And then we would see our parents for like a couple hours on Saturday evening and Sunday morning. And then we would go back. And so, I mean, I'm just,

Starting point is 00:08:12 my mind is kind of blown right now as you're saying that because I've, of course, I'm familiar with the C.org. I have heard about the boarding schools, but now just thinking through that at such a young age six, seven years old, which is incredibly young, going to sleep without your parents. And waking up without them, that has to be incredibly difficult and challenging. But I also suppose the argument could be you didn't know any different at that point. Is that fair? to say? That's very fair to say. Yeah. The truth is that I never lived in a home with my parents. And even though you're right, like I didn't know what I was missing. And also that was happening to all the other kids around me. So it wasn't like, oh, this is odd what's happening to me. At the same time, there's

Starting point is 00:08:52 still that, you know, basic biological drive where I always wanted to be with my parents. Of course. And I always, like everything I was doing, even trying to be good in school, was so that I could somehow work at this base with them so that I could see them every day. That was my personal goal. And then now as a mom myself, you know, obviously it's very different with my own kids. Now it puts it in a more stark perspective. Absolutely. I would imagine it's almost kind of reliving your childhood, giving them the childhood you wish that you had in a sense. Right. Yeah. And actually really understanding what I missed. Yeah. Absolutely. Now going back to what you had just, you made a comment saying that you wanted to do really well in school and you wanted to

Starting point is 00:09:37 make people happy so that you could then one day work at the same organization with your family, was there a certain requirement where you had to hit certain milestones or have a certain performance at these boarding schools in order to then be either accepted or invited to the C.org? Yes. So how the boarding school was looked at is that we were called cadets, where we were considered C.org members in training. Okay. And so we had a certain curriculum that we had to complete. A little bit of it was schooling and a little bit of it was Scientology Studies. And so if you finish this earlier, then you could go work at the base earlier. I remember my Aunt Shelley would always tell me how she worked in the Seorg as a nine-year-old and how I was

Starting point is 00:10:20 sort of like lagging behind because I wasn't already there. And that's, but correct me if I'm wrong, when you get to the Seorg, that's hard labor that you're then required to do. super ironically what we were required to do at the boarding school was legitimately hard labor what kind of things like digging trenches hauling rocks i mean we woke up at 630 in the morning and immediately we were put to work our jobs were to maintain the grounds they would have to get inspected after like we planted a bunch of trees after we filled planters with gravel we planted cactus. We mowed the huge sports field and we like shoveled horse poop and that sort of thing. Like we just had all sorts of landscaping type duties around the ranch that we would pretty

Starting point is 00:11:06 much do right after we woke up until school time, which wasn't until the afternoon. And then, you know, once a week on Saturday, we would be required to basically white glove clean the entire ranch, which just meant cleaning so well that it had to pass inspection with somebody with a white glove. And who was usually doing that inspection? There was a couple of adults at the ranch. But bizarrely enough, like the kids were, we had our own organizational structure where we had seven divisions. Each division had three departments. Each division had a head. We would have these like gatherings called muster. I guess that's a military word. But for me, cytology word and they would be like unit one report and be like all president account of for sir

Starting point is 00:11:54 and then we would do like close order military drilling like left face right face and we would get our uniforms inspected every day we were uniforms and we would get our our dorms inspected every day for cleanliness so it was like even though we were kids there and there were adults there overseeing us it was like we were running ourselves wow that must have forced you to mature at a very young age and just become an adult. And like we just said, not even have a childhood. I'm curious, what was the ratio like, if you can remember, of hard labor in the mornings and school time? Like, what was that split like? Were you doing more hard labor than actually getting education, even though the education was, of course, Scientology-based? That's a great question.

Starting point is 00:12:40 So basically, all morning until about, like, two in the afternoon, we did, like, the hard labor. I mean, we also had breakfast and lunch. But even like after breakfast and lunch, like we would be mopping and cleaning the floors, doing the dishes, all of that stuff, like doing laundry. And so then after lunch is when we would start our schooling until dinner time. But after dinner, we would be doing Scientology studies. So the schooling was really after lunch until dinner time. So a few hours of like traditional education, call it maybe 2 to 5 or 2 to 6 p.m. Yes, except it wasn't traditional education. It was kids from like six years old to 16 years old all in the same classroom. And there wasn't, there was no grades. And basically there wasn't a teacher who would teach us things. They weren't allowed to explain anything. We all had these little checklists, which were basically like, read this, demonstrate this.

Starting point is 00:13:37 Like we would write an essay. Curriculum. Well, it was like step by step what we had to do, but it was never a teacher teaching us. And so it was run like a sign talk. course room where they would like they had an e-meter there we would have to be attached to the e-meter can you explain to everybody listening what the e-meter is sorry no no no that's fine i mean i feel like i know a lot of these terms but for those who are a little bit unfamiliar yeah yeah i have one actually at home i went on my way up i was like dang i should have brought that please text me a photo

Starting point is 00:14:09 okay i will for sure so an e-meter is basically like kind of scientology's version of a lie detector It's this device. It has a dial on it. You hold two like metal cans that are attached to the e-meter. It puts like a small electrical current through your body. And in Scientology, they believe that your mind influences this current and that influence shows up on the dial of the e-meter. So they basically ask you questions. And depending on how the needle reacts, Scientology interprets it to mean yes or no, you're lying or you're not. And am I correct when I say those are those sessions are called auditing sessions? Is that right? That's correct. Those sessions are called auditing sessions, but they also use the e-meter outside of auditing sessions, like in a normal like school classroom. Like Scientology has this obsession with making sure you don't go past any words you don't understand. They kind of believe that it's like the root of all evil. And so in the schooling scenario, they ask us if we have gone by any words we don't understand the meaning of.

Starting point is 00:15:15 Interesting. And they ask it on the e-meter. Yeah. So can you give me an example of that, like what they may ask like or a word? Totally. Yeah, yeah. So they basically say in your recent studies, have you encountered any word or symbol you didn't fully understand? And then they look at the e-meter and depending on how it reacts, they say, great, go

Starting point is 00:15:34 back to your studies. And if it has like a read on the e-meter, they say, go back to your first course, the beginning of your course and find a word, make a list of all the words you don't understand, look them up in a dictionary. And like try again. Exactly, yeah. But you kind of have to go back to the beginning of your course. So it sucks if you fail. And also, it's in front of the whole classroom. Oh my gosh. And so it's embarrassing. Like that was my terror when I was, of course. So embarrassing. Yeah, it's humiliating. Yeah. And so I would have these like little strategies, which basically occupied all of my schooling time.

Starting point is 00:16:13 I would have a dictionary open and like pretending like I was looking up a word because if you're looking up a word, then they can't do a meter check on you because... But in reality, the meter check isn't even accurate because it's just a current going through your body. So it's like whether you know the word or not, it's kind of a 50-50 chance of what's going to show up on the system, right? Right. Yes, totally. But it was more like I could avoid even being brought to the station if they knew. knew I was already looking up words. And, like, they would have things, I feel like I'm getting into the weeds. You can tell me this too much. No, no, no. This is great. But we would have,

Starting point is 00:16:48 like, word chains. Like, if you look up a word, and then there's a word in the word you don't understand, you have to open another dictionary and look up that word. So I was basically always putting on a show of being in a word chain. Wow. So that I could avoid embarrassing. Yeah, of course. And so it wasn't very productive way of going about my schooling. It's interesting because you say how you did that to. avoid the embarrassment and when you are tested and it's in front of the class. And you also a few minutes ago had mentioned that your aunt Shelley used to give you a hard time saying that she was in the C.org at nine years old. You're not trying hard enough. And so I want to just pivot for a

Starting point is 00:17:25 moment and ask you, how involved while you were in this boarding school and a cadet and doing the training was your aunt Shelley and your uncle David in your life? So my aunt Shelley would write me regularly. Like she sent me a bunch of letter or a bunch of stationery so that I could write her because I think that she was saying she wanted me to write her. And then I wasn't. I used the excuse that I didn't have stationary. So she sent me a bunch. So I would write her regularly. They would send me birthday presents and Christmas presents and all of that. And occasionally, us kids were brought into the base where our parents worked, where we would work in like the galley where they made all the food or occasionally we would do a Scientology course there.

Starting point is 00:18:08 And so when I was there, like sometimes my uncle would come get me on his motorcycle and bring me to his office. And usually I would wind up talking to Shelly. Like he was around, but she was like a woman. And my opinion is that she didn't have any kids of her own. And so she's sort of like, I was sort of her outlet for that. Yeah, I think that makes sense. At the time. So they weren't part of my daily life because I was at the ranch the entire time.

Starting point is 00:18:37 But, you know, at Christmas time, you know, when we had a day off, it was spent with them. You only had one day off. Yeah. Christmas day. Yeah. Or there would be like a big celebration the night before, but then we would have Christmas day off. And so I would spend it with them with my parents. Well, that was actually going to be one of my questions.

Starting point is 00:18:56 And please excuse me if this is so naive and ignorant of me. But do you celebrate traditional holidays? Like, would your whole family get together for Thanksgiving? I know you just mentioned Christmas for anything like that, or is that go against Scientology beliefs? It doesn't go against Scientology beliefs. I feel like I'm not religious right now, but I still celebrate Christmas. But things weren't really family affairs. Like at Thanksgiving at the Seorg base, they would have a Thanksgiving meal.

Starting point is 00:19:28 And so we would all celebrate it together. Or like at Christmas time, the night before Christmas, there would be like a Thanksgiving. base-wide celebration all together. And then on Christmas Day, there would be, like, I guess different groups from different, because there was always different factions of who was in what group would hang out together. I just by default, my parents were executives and they would hang out with my aunt and uncle. And so I was part of that, but it was still considered like a Scientology activity more than it was considered a family activity. Were Christmas gifts a thing? Yeah. Okay. Christmas tree, all the things. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But like I didn't have a home where there was a Christmas tree. It wasn't like nesting with the stockings and the home. It was more of like you go to a place. You have the meal. You celebrate together. And then that's and then it ends. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or we would like have the Chris Kringle secret Santa thing. But we all like, well, as a kid, I only made $5 a week. But like they only made $50 a week. So you'd have to like buy gum from the canteen or something. And that would be like, like, like.

Starting point is 00:20:35 the daily gifts. Now, speaking of that, I want to move into how you progressed out of the boarding school and what was next. But really quick, just going back to the pay thing really quick, is it your opinion that the pay was structured that way to keep people in debt and keep them stuck there? Or why do you think the pay was so little? And is it still that amount to this day? Everything I know of from people who have left more recently, it is still that amount to this day. Wow. And the truth is that I think about different aspects of Scientology so many years later that I feel like I actually haven't even gotten around to thinking is that why this pay is structured in this way. But I was actually doing a new TikTok for today.

Starting point is 00:21:22 And I talked briefly about elderly people who work their entire life in the Seorg and they don't have any savings. They don't have a pension. They have no retirement. So they're basically just screwed. And you can't have those things if you're living on $50 a week. And so even just today, like it's even though I've been gone for quite a while, it's still like, the more I progress through my life, the more I see how things were when I was there, the more, like the more I am a mom, the longer I'm a mom to my kids of different ages, I realize how messed up it was for me. Yeah. So I actually think that that is a very good point.

Starting point is 00:22:02 Like, of course that's how you keep people there. Well, that's interesting that you just mentioned about the point about pension and elderly people because I'm curious, too, what would happen if a C.org member or any member was injured? Or did you ever go to the dentist growing up? How did it was health care covered? What did that look like? So as far as a dentist, they did have an in-house dentist, but it was like one person for thousands of people. And you would have to get like the money approved in order to get the procedure. So there was a dentist, but it wasn't like everyone was in good health.

Starting point is 00:22:39 There was only so much this one person could do. And as far as medical care, Scientology believes that Scientology can cure everything. They even believe that what's happening to you medically is because of a mental thing. But if something is an emergency, they will take you to the hospital. where I guess it's like if you don't have insurance and if you make zero money, it's just free. Yeah, they're forced to treat you up to an extent, I think. Exactly, yeah. So there was like one or two times where I went there and was like just waiting for hours

Starting point is 00:23:17 and was like passing out in the hospital. Yeah, so it's not like there's regular medical treatment. There is a medical liaison office, but what basically we mostly did there was if you weren't feeling well, We would do Scientology assist, basically that are supposed to help you with your body. And that's how we thought that they would give you some vitamins and then we would do those assists. And that's how we thought we were healing each other. Oh, my gosh. So walk me through then if there was anything else like that you want to mention about boarding school and then what the next step in your journey was.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Sure. I just want to ask you something, though. I just had a realization that, okay, so we would do this thing called a touch. cyst, which was supposed to, like, help you heal to help you be more in communication with your body. And I just realized that this is kind of a great place to demonstrate it, but also it would involve me touching you. Let's do it. Okay. Let's do it. Okay. Touch assist. Okay. So how close do I need to be to you? Well, um, sorry for anybody who's not watching the video version of it. Can I stand up? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want me to stand?

Starting point is 00:24:24 No, no. You say. Okay. Here, I'm going to move the mic so that it can pick up both voice. Okay. Okay. So close. your eyes. Okay. And basically we go, feel my finger. Oh, no. Just you feel it with like. Oh. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm already failing. And you just say like yes or yes. Okay. Good. Feel my finger. Yes. Thank you. Feel my finger. Yes. Thank you. Feel my finger. Yes. Thank you. Feel my finger. Yes. And basically like we just keep going all the way down to like each of your fingers and each of your toes. And that's what we would. And what's the purpose of that? It's basically like we like we believe that that would make your spirit be in better communication with your body. Oh, and I would heal myself. Yeah. Basically. So am I healed right now, Jenna? Well, I would have to keep going like sometimes for like a half an hour until you're supposed to have some like realization like, wow. My headache's gone. Exactly. And at some point, you're just like, my headache's gone because I can't be doing this all day, you know. Well, thank you for demonstrating that. That's really interesting. I'm going to start doing that on my kids. Anytime they're like, I have a boo-boo. I'm like, touch a sis time.

Starting point is 00:25:41 You like wear them down. So they're like, okay, I feel better. I just want to watch Spidey and Friends. Leave me the hell alone. That's pretty much how it was. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so yeah, walk me through how that transition happened and kind of where things were at and what your day-to-day look like through boarding school into the next phase. Okay, yeah. So the majority of the time I was at this boarding school at the ranch, my mom was positioned in Clearwater, Florida, where she basically was in charge of that whole base, which is Scientology's

Starting point is 00:26:13 biggest, like, money-making base. People come, Scientologists come from all around the world to get highly trained there, and then they go back to their own churches, and it delivers some of the highest levels in Scientology. So she was responsible for like renovating church buildings and getting that sort of thing in place. And so there was a time or two that I went to visit her. And basically I was going from digging trenches, hauling rocks, and like being in this military-esque organization to where I lived with my mom in an apartment. but it like had a jacuzzi like there was a teenage girl who was supposed to look after me who worked for my mom who would make her breakfast every morning she would wake her up

Starting point is 00:27:01 and she would do her laundry and you know my mom would get like manicures and she like there was a special executive chef she would get this delicious food and all I had to do was do a Scientology course all day and I would basically get all of this these amazing perks. And it was like the greatest time of my life. Of course. I mean, of course, compared to what you were doing in the hard labor, it's like, this is amazing. Exactly. Yes, exactly. That's exactly how it was. And so then when I went back to the ranch, I was like, it sucks here. Yeah, I don't want to be here. Give me out. Yes. Yeah. And then they had made it. So our training program was going to be longer to be at the ranch. And basically, I was like, I want to go back to Clearwater. And so,

Starting point is 00:27:49 they sent me there but my mom wasn't there and then they basically like just put me in the seorg instead of getting this great treatment and they were like surprise you're here now and they basically just threw me in a dorm with like at this point it was like 10 other women and how old were you at this point I was 12 wow yeah so it was like a few months after I turned 12 and like I remember getting there and my bed didn't even have sheets on it like I didn't know where to go. I was just told, okay, now you're in the Seorg. Here's your uniform. Now, I always knew I was going to be joining the Seorg, but I didn't expect it to be that sudden. Like, I actually signed my billionaire contract when I was seven years old. Oh my gosh. Like they, like, recruiters came to the

Starting point is 00:28:35 ranch and they had us all sign it and was like, of course I'm going to sign it. My parents are part of this. I'm not going anywhere else. Yeah, it's the norm. Yeah. Not even questioning it. Yeah. And I didn't play video games. I didn't have toys. I didn't watch TV. Like I had I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists, zero. I never saw them. That was your world. Exactly. Yes.

Starting point is 00:28:55 Yeah. And so I just didn't expect to be like thrust into this. And actually I realized I'm finally answering your other question, which is while the Corg is very like regimented and hard, it's not the same level of manual labor that we did as kids. So it was actually a little bit easier. As you get older, which is so disgusting to think about. Right. For me, yeah. Some people just join the Seorg not having grown up in the cadet org or in the boarding school.

Starting point is 00:29:29 So some people just go right into that and that's really hard for them. For me, it was like it was a little bit easier, but still, yeah, there was more like, I don't know, like politics and dynamics and that sort of thing. Now, for someone who is, say, making it up call them 20 years old and they're saying today, like, I want to become a Scientologist. I truly believe in it. I believe in everything they stand for. What would make someone decide or be told either, okay, I'm a Scientologist. I'll go to, I'll go through Dianetics or all the programs and do all this, or I'm going to go in the Sea. Or is it a requirement? Is it a certain level of dedication? How does that split happen? It's not a requirement, but it is considered like the highest level of dedication. And obviously, the more dedicated. you are, the more appraised you get. And also, as a Seorg member, you get Scientology for free, although they don't give you much of it because you're not paying for it, but you are actually

Starting point is 00:30:29 able to get Scientology for free. So maybe some people who can't fully afford paying for Scientology outside of working there, they might join staff or join the Seorg. So I think that's an interesting take, joining from like a financial perspective and benefit. But you also had said that it's the highest level of dedication. So I have to ask, why is Tom Cruise never been in the Cork? Right, exactly. Is he like the, you know, picture perfect Scientologist so dedicated, like the poster boy? He is, yeah, but I think that Scientology, and he probably agrees that he's more valuable to Scientology as being Tom Cruise.

Starting point is 00:31:11 As being like the Mission Impossible guy who never ages and does his own stunts. Did you ever meet Tom Cruise? No, I never met him. Yeah. I want to talk all about the celebrity of it all here soon, but let's see out. No worries. Sorry, I'm going off the rails a little. No, no, that's okay.

Starting point is 00:31:24 But in Scientology, like, even when Tom Cruise was, like, going crazy, like jumping on couches and stuff, we just saw it as like, oh, my God, he's spreading the word about Scientology. He's doing so great. What a great dedicated Scientologist he is. So I feel like Scientology thinks he's more valuable in that way because how many people have gotten into Scientology because they're like, well, Tom Cruise does it. It must be great.

Starting point is 00:31:47 Yeah, all the different. celebrity endorsements throughout it. Yeah, exactly. So then once you were at the Corg, aside from just like the less labor that or the reduction in labor, I should say, from when you were at the camp or the boarding school, what did that look like? Did you have to go through? I know you said Scientology education was free or it was made available at that point. So like did you go through all the dionetics? How much do all of those costs? The books, I know that that is like this whole financial animal in and of itself too and you never really reach the top. You always get hit down different tiers. So what happened? Right. Yeah. So first of all, I was no longer doing schooling daily. We only did

Starting point is 00:32:27 school like a couple hours one day a week. Starting at 12 years old. Yes, starting at 12 years old until I was 16 years old. After I was 16, no more schooling at all. And again, it wasn't grade levels. Nothing was like no diploma for all of the kids who were there working in the C-org. It's not just me. And then my schedule sort of became, like, at least at the boarding school, you know, our studies would end at 9 o'clock. We would go to bed at 9.30. Well, instead, here, it was more like closer to midnight, 1130 midnight when we would go home. And I was required to do a lot of Scientology training throughout the day. There was also a few programs I went through where, like, I was in a part of a higher-level part of the C-org.

Starting point is 00:33:17 There's so much red tape. There's so many hierarchies. It's so esoteric. It seems like by design. Yes, exactly. It's like, what are these people even doing? But basically, there was an initiation program to get into this higher-level organization where we were required to do all the laundries of the senior executive

Starting point is 00:33:39 on the base, we would do all of their laundry, and we would clean their rooms for them, we would clean their offices for them, and we would bring them food, and we had to complete a certain series of courses in order to get through that. So I did that program. And sorry, I'm just trying to explain things in a way. I'm sorry, I even forget your question. Oh, what it was. I was just talking about what it was like in the Sea Oregon, like, what the landscape of like what you had to do and the requirements and dionetics and all of that. And if that was a part of it and just kind of like adds you, I guess. Because in my mind, I'm thinking you're essentially climbing the Scientology ladder, so to speak.

Starting point is 00:34:24 So like as you continued to climb higher and higher, I would imagine the pressures increase, the requirements increase. Maybe the skepticism starts to trickle in. So just wanting to understand a little bit about just that period in your life. Right. Yeah. Okay. So as far as Scientology, if you're a paying person who comes and pays for Scientology, they have what's called a gradation chart. And basically, you start at the bottom and step by step, you move up. And each thing is a course or a level of counseling that you have to do. And you have to do them in order. Now, there's some side things. Like if you do this level right here and you're not doing well in life, they might have a side act. they have you do in order to get you back on that level what classifies not doing well you said doing well in life yes like sometimes like just say you're at level two and your life is an array you are like they have to have things called like life repair or maybe if you get into if you go to jail like they okay can do like I don't know like a an interrogation on you and find out what's going on okay like just a life event yes is it would it be I'm just trying to get a scale for it like

Starting point is 00:35:39 Would they consider your life in disarray if you were going through a breakup? Or is it something more severe? Like you're drinking. You're doing drugs. You've gone to jail. Like something that is more severe. No, something like that. As long as your attention is fixated on it and you're unable to fixate on your Scientology counseling,

Starting point is 00:35:59 then they will do something to address it. Okay. Separately. At the beginning of every Scientology counseling session, they ask you, are you upset? do you have a present time problem and have you done something bad that you're hiding? And they try to get life things out of the way so they can do the Scientology counseling. But if it keeps coming up, then you'll probably have to do another service. Oh, oh my God, sorry. Another service or another program in order to get, like deal with that and then get back on course. How long is a counseling

Starting point is 00:36:30 session? So it's usually a couple of hours, like two or more. But like, So there's also different types of counseling sessions, like, and it is called auditing. I say counseling because Scientology has such a specific language. Oh, I'm sure. And it's, I feel like it's so, it's hard to impart what I'm trying to say when I'm, like, trying to explain using their language. So I try not to use it, but it's like translating in my head every second. So there's different types of auditing sessions. Like if you are in trouble, me as a staff member.

Starting point is 00:37:08 I would get an interrogation. And that's basically when they ask you, have you done this bad thing? Have you done this bad thing? And they interpret it on the e-meter. And so sometimes those sessions last longer. Like I've been in one of those sessions for nine hours straight. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, where they're recording it.

Starting point is 00:37:25 It's like an adult asking you a bunch of questions. They don't accept no for an answer. They only accept the e-meter's answer. Are you comfortable sharing why that session was so long or what the primary root of that was? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. okay well first of all it happened like 20 times like it it was a common thing yeah it was like a standard practice of theirs right but for me specifically because I was the niece of the leader and because they felt like how I acted represented how they looked to people and I don't know if it's like they

Starting point is 00:37:59 saw me as a potential threat so one of the times when I started getting an interrogation was when my parents had actually left Scientology and I didn't know I just got pulled out of my duties. How old were you at this time? At this point, I was 16. Okay. Yeah. So. And they left. And they didn't notify you. No, I didn't even know that my parents were leaving. I had been forbidden to speak to call my parents by my aunt Shelley. And so basically they had taken me out of my everyday duties. And I started getting interrogated by this woman who was the highest level important person on the base. And this would go on for hours a day with a video camera. And then basically, I was made, I was taken out of my duties. I was made to clean bathrooms any time that I wasn't getting an interrogation from her. I was made to scrub the bathroom

Starting point is 00:38:50 with a toothbrush with somebody standing there watching me to make sure I didn't try to escape at any time. Someone else also stood outside my dorm at night while I was sleeping. What would happen if once you're notified that your parents left, which I want to ask why they left, But what would happen if you were to say, you know what? Screw this. Throw the toothbrush down. I'm out of here. You can't hold me. I have free will. I'm not doing this anymore. I don't want to be a part of this. What would they do? Well, this is what's hard. That is what I eventually did when I left Scientology. But if I decided to do that, who would I go to? I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists. Oh, you mean in terms of life outside of Scientology? So it's almost. as though, kind of like not only, and I hope this word doesn't offend you because it's not at all what I mean, but it's almost as though they brainwash people inside there a little bit to be just so dependent on other Scientologists. And yeah, remove your ability to lean on anybody outside of the organization so you feel trapped. Right. And I didn't know anybody outside of

Starting point is 00:39:58 the organization. I didn't have a dollar to my name. I didn't know how to cook. I didn't have a car. I didn't have a license. I didn't have a diploma. Like, I was raised to be afraid of people who weren't Scientologists. Like, not like they would hurt me or kill me or something like that. But I was afraid of how I should speak to them if they were to ask questions because we were told how to answer questions. Like, I was supposed to say I was a student, but I didn't really know why.

Starting point is 00:40:27 Now I know that it's because as a kid, you're supposed to pretend like you're in school. But at that time, I didn't know what, like, I believe in Scientology. I thought it was great that I was working there. Yeah, why do I have to lie? Exactly, yeah. So I was just like afraid of people who weren't Scientologists. And so I wouldn't have anyone to call or anyone to go if at that time I wanted to leave. I didn't even know my parents were gone.

Starting point is 00:40:49 And I didn't even have a phone number for them. So there was no options. Like me staying there, like I just had nowhere to go. How did they explain to you that your parents left? Did they try to position in a way to suggest that they abandon you, that they left that they were the evil people in all of this? Well, so this bathroom cleaning and interrogations went on for months. And then one day they said, you're going home, which I guess meant, I thought meant back to the international management base where my parents were. Turned out it was in L.A.

Starting point is 00:41:23 I was brought to, like, the 10th floor of this building. It's the Hollywood Guarantee Building. And basically two senior most officials in Scientology, they basically, like I was basically waiting in this room for like two hours before they even came in. And they were like, so Ronnie and Biddy, that's my parents, have left. They are living in Mexico. Like they basically send them to Mexico so that no journalists could be in touch with them. And they're living in Mexico and we want you to go with them. And I was like, so are they basically, I asked if they were declared SPs, which is a suppressive person, which is somebody who has left Scientology as a critic of Scientology, and people who Scientology thinks are evil.

Starting point is 00:42:12 And they were kind of like, well, yeah, but they didn't want to lead with that. And they're like, and you're going with them. And I was like, oh, well, I haven't seen my parents since I was 12. I've never lived in a home with them. I've basically structured my whole life around, like, you know, when I started my period, like, I got pads from my friend, you know, when, like, that's who my family was. And so at this point, when my parents have left, I've been forbidden to talk to them for years. I was afraid of the outside world. Of course.

Starting point is 00:42:41 We were taught that in regular schools, like, in psychology, they believe psychiatrists and psychologists are, like, evil. And they, like, try to, like, lobotomize you and all this and drug you. And I was like, I'm going to go to a regular school in Mexico. I don't even speak Spanish. And so I was like, no, I want to stay. And so basically I wound up staying. And at the time, they were like, wow, you are such a dedicated, wonderful Seorg member. Do you think that they did that at all as some sort of reverse psychology to be like,

Starting point is 00:43:14 we want you to go to like test your dedication and see if you want to say? Or do you think they truly did want you to go? I think they wanted me to go to avoid a legal issue and drama with my parents. But I think that when I said I wanted to stay, they recognized that it was an opportunity for them to basically keep my parents in check. Like we have your daughter here. Exactly. Yeah. And if you speak out, if you say bad things, then you're not going to see her. Do you have any siblings? I have two half-brothers. Yeah. Were they in Scientology as well?

Starting point is 00:43:49 they were in Scientology as well. They grew up there. But it's kind of a weird long story. Like I have twin brothers, but they're my mom's kids and not my dad's kids. And they're eight years older than me. And so they were at a different base than me. And so it's just like. Relation, but not the closeness. Right. Yeah. And also I'm just trying to think like one of my brothers was already gone by then. And then one of my brothers left later. Okay, so you don't have it currently in your immediate family, there are no more family members in Scientology. Not in my immediate family. Just your extended. Yes, right. Well, I mean, of course, one of them is running Scientology. Right, yeah. Okay, so then I'm curious, too, just as people have spoken out over the years about Scientology and Leah Remini had her famous docu-series where she was exposing, she spoke with a lot of people who had left, some who were still involved and who wanted to be anonymous.

Starting point is 00:44:44 Have you watched any of that? I've watched some of it, yeah. What you've seen is that an accurate portrayal of what it was like and truthful? Absolutely. Yeah. As summer winds down, I'm all about refreshing my wardrobe and getting my staple pieces in my closet for the season that's ahead. I'm a fall girly. I love the coats.

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Starting point is 00:46:47 That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash A-E to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash A.E. Okay, so the portrayal you're saying was accurate. I do have a quick question then with all of that, just like with the celebrity of it all, I know you didn't have, you said you never met Tom Cruise or anything like that. Did you ever hear about special treatment that the celebrities were getting or like certain perks that they would receive just because of their participation? How did that look? So in Scientology Celebrity Center International, which is where the big celebrities are handled, there's like a whole office called the president's office.

Starting point is 00:47:34 They just help them in their day-to-day life. They help get them on Scientology services. They make sure they're entering through the right door so that their privacy is protected. They handle their interpersonal relationships. They get them a good spot in the Scientology restaurants. All of that, they basically cater directly to them to make sure they're getting the best possible treatment. A lot of times when Scientology celebrities are on courses, they have their own private classrooms. If they're doing the purification rundown, they have their own private sauna.

Starting point is 00:48:04 and even sometimes they're being counseled, audited by very senior level people, senior executives. Yeah, so I remember there was one period of time where I did not want to be in Scientology. I had like tried to like escape. And this man, his name was Marty Rathbun. He was like second in command of Scientology. And he literally was like chasing me on the street with his car. I finally got in the car. He took me to the top of Mulholland Drive.

Starting point is 00:48:33 We got into an argument. he left me there. And then he finally, I didn't have a phone. I didn't have anything. I was just a brainwashed Searig member. And he finally came back and got me, but he was like, look, I have been auditing Tom Cruise. His auditing file is right here in the car. I'm going to go bring it into the Celebrity Center. Can you please just promise me you won't run out of this car. You won't run away when I take five minutes to go drop it off. Wow. So that person was the second in command of all of Scientology and that's who was auditing Tom Cruise. And that's also who was dealing with me. That's interesting because I guess, like, obviously celebrities who are going through it,

Starting point is 00:49:13 they're going through the same criteria that other people are, but like the fact that Tom Cruise still gets audited and things like that happen. That's wild to me. So going back, because I know we skipped ahead a little bit, at what point and at what age did you first start to question things or feel like I'm not on board with this. Something about this doesn't feel right. And what were the events after that following? Sure, yeah. Sorry, I just want to go back to the celebrity thing.

Starting point is 00:49:43 The thing is that the celebrities, as far as special treatment, I would say the biggest thing that I take issue with is that they are not Seorg members. So there is a whole crew of people who are basically being paid. pennies who are forfeiting their ability to have children. And yes, some of those people signed on as adults, but some of them were forced into it as children. They're being deprived of an education. And every time Tom Cruise or another celebrity pays millions to this organization to support it, they're actually supporting what is essentially a human trafficking organization and terrible treatment and abuse of children without they themselves having to do any of that labor

Starting point is 00:50:30 or live in that difficult way. Or live by those guidelines. Tom Cruise has children. Exactly. So why doesn't he have to follow the same rules that everybody else does? Exactly. But I think that you did that was very well spoken, what you just said. And I think that that is incredibly important in all this because you're right.

Starting point is 00:50:46 Their celebrity, their funding, all of it is enabling this organization to continue to just pray on people and suppress people and exploit children. It's sick. It's so sick. So yeah, tell me a little bit about when you start. to have a little bit of a realization. So the first time that I started to doubt anything about Scientology, it was probably about 14, 15. And I was on a Scientology course.

Starting point is 00:51:15 And there was another cadet org type boarding school there in Florida. And one of the kids who was there, I was working with him on course. And for some reason at that school, like he didn't have the idea that he had. to automatically be a C. York member. Like, they gave them a little bit more choice, I guess. And so he would say things like, do you really believe that you're a spirit? Like, do you really want to be here? Like, you don't really seem happy in this job that you're doing. And it was the first time that I was like, I never really questioned it before. Like, I was always like just took my parents' word for it. I took everyone's word for it. And I was like, do I really believe that I'm a spirit? And I was

Starting point is 00:51:56 like, do I really like doing this? Do I really like being held to this standard? And at that time, a lot was going on because I was forbidden to call my parents. My mom had gotten in trouble for something, and I was just really worried about her. And I wasn't allowed to tell anybody that she was in trouble because she was a very senior executive in the miscavage family, and it would look bad. So I was also just like keeping this secret, not allowed to talk about it. And I wound up telling him. And it was the first person who was like, wow, so you never see your parents. He was like, you've been away from them all this time and you're not even allowed to talk to them. And he said, that must be really hard. That's not how Scientologists talk to each other.

Starting point is 00:52:46 Like they're not like, oh, I'm so sorry you're going through this. They're like, yeah, this is Scientology. Suck it up. And by the way, if you speak badly about Scientology, it's only because you've done something bad. And so it was the first time that somebody spoke to me like that. And it was the first time I was like, yeah, maybe I don't like doing this. I've just assumed that I always did. And I think at that age, I was getting less attached to the idea of wanting to work there because my parents were there. Because I was 15, 16. That's how it is developmentally. Yeah. And so, yeah, that was the first time that I ever questioned it. And then when did things come to a major crossroads to where you knew it's time to get out? That wound up happening when I was 21. So many things had happened from that time.

Starting point is 00:53:36 I mean, I had so many interrogations. I got. So after my parents left, I was basically taken out of Clearwater, Florida, brought to Los Angeles. I had to go through this whole program where I was like had to sit in an office with a video camera all day where I would study all of the policies about SPs, basically saying that my parents were SPs. I lived in a room by myself. I was completely isolated. And then finally, when I got more, like after a few months when I got more integrated into the group, I wound up meeting who's now my ex-husband and we fell in love. And in Scientology, you're not allowed to, or in the Seorg. You're not allowed to have sex before you get married. people get married at really young ages.

Starting point is 00:54:20 Like my friend Misha got married when she was 15 to... Just like certain Mormon cultures. Exactly, yeah. So it's like totally normal to get married at a young age there. And so, but Scientology wouldn't let us get married because they were afraid that his uncle would get in touch with my parents. And then they would, they're very paranoid, that they would like conspire against Scientology and it would be bad. So we wound up having sex before we got married. Go, girl.

Starting point is 00:54:48 Just kidding. And then that's, like, so forbidden. Like, okay, so in the Seorg, they have this program that's called the RPF. It's the Rehabilitation Project Force. We're basically, like, if you mess up, you get assigned to this. And it is, like, the ultimate doghouse, like gulag. Basically, you have to wear all black. You're not allowed to speak unless spoken to.

Starting point is 00:55:12 Oh, my gosh. You have to run everywhere you go. And you spend five hours a day getting interrogated. And also it's like a special kind of interrogation where you have to find your evil intentions behind the things that you did. People are on this program for years. Wow. And the rest of the time, they basically do heavy manual labor, like how we did at the ranch. And you're basically like garbage.

Starting point is 00:55:35 Like you're like the worst of the worst. And it lasts for years. And so basically normally if you have premarital sex, but even if you just like touch someone in like, like, like inappropriate places or anything like that, you get assigned to this program. And so that's what was at risk for me. Now, I basically was like, you guys didn't let us get married. So I refused to do it. And I think that at that time, they were like, well, what are we going to do? Get rid of her. That's a liability for us. Yeah. And on some level, they acknowledged, they didn't want me to get married because they didn't want my parents to come to the wedding. And so they had allowed me to

Starting point is 00:56:15 write one letter to my parents saying that, you know, I wanted to get married. They said it's fine. We don't have to come to your wedding. So I wound up getting married when I was 18. None of my family members were present. I was still wearing my uniform. And then, you know, they had previously tried to separate me and my fiancé. They sent us on a mission to Australia. And basically in that mission in Australia, I was actually able to be in contact with people in the regular world. We were sent to a Scientology church there where we were supposed to find them a new building and raise money for that building. And it was like a ridiculous impossible job. I think they were trying to get rid of us. And basically, I was able to be in touch with Scientologists, but who weren't in the

Starting point is 00:57:00 Seorg. And one of them had a little girl. And like I just hadn't really been around kids in that way. Well, I had when I was a kid, but we didn't think of each other as kids. Yeah. And so it was like the first time that I was around this person who was like a mom who would go to her house. She had a bunch of little kids. She had another baby when we were there. And this little girl, I remember her name was Eden. And she was like so cute. And like she was kind of crazy. But it was like the first time where I was like, oh, this is. So I'm not a lot. It was like the first time that not having kids actually matter to me. You're like, I can't have this. Yeah. And yeah. And yeah. It was the first time where I really saw what I was missing.

Starting point is 00:57:44 And then when we went back to L.A. when the mission was over, basically, like, all hell had broken loose on the base. Like, they were not letting people go to bed until midnight. They were basically, like, basically we were, sorry, I'm trying to translate the Scientology was. It's basically, what I believe the reason for it is that Scientology is declining. Like, there are less members. they're making less money. And it's really because of the age of the internet and all of these bad stories are out there. And because of that, Scientology doesn't have the power to silence people that they used to.

Starting point is 00:58:22 And so because of that, Scientology is declining. But in Scientology, if statistics are going down, they basically start an internal witch hunt. And they believe that it's because they're surrounded by SPs. And they basically just start treating everybody horribly and punishing everybody and thinking that that's going to change it. somehow. Yeah, get them to do their job better. Yeah, and make more people want to be a Scientologist. Exactly. But obviously, that's not the real problem. And I also think that my uncle, you know, had gotten more paranoid with that, like, people coming out about Scientology, like the Lisa McPherson case, who's a woman who died unnecessarily in the hands of Scientology. And, you know, I think that he just

Starting point is 00:59:07 became more and more paranoid about those things. And so just the culture was already bad, but it was much worse. Like we were getting screamed at every day at muster. If people fell asleep during tape play, they're being told to... What's tape play? Sorry, that's when we would listen to Elron Hubbard, Scientology's founder, drone on and on endlessly. It would be on a tape because he was dead. And so... Rest in peace. Actually don't. Actually don't. Exactly don't. And they would start. And they would started at like 11 o'clock at night. Oh my God. And it was like, and so when people would fall asleep, it was like they would get

Starting point is 00:59:43 called out in front of everybody. It's like psychological warfare. Exactly. All the time. And it was almost like you were afraid to step out of line if otherwise you would be brought up in front of the group and humiliated. And it was just like this terrible culture. In Scientology, they already have a really crazy snitching culture. They have what's called knowledge reports where if you don't report somebody who's slacking off, somebody who did something bad, somebody who spoke badly about Scientology or complained, then you will get in trouble. Would they ever, like, test you and, like, have people pretend, like, to set you up and see if you would snitch on them? Yeah, so I remember one time there was a gal who actually had been at the boarding school with me when I was young. She was then in Florida with me, and then she was in L.A. with me.

Starting point is 01:00:32 She had just happened to be transferred to these different bases, too. So I'd known her since I was a kid. And I remember she was one of the people who, she also hadn't seen her father who had left Scientology many years before. She was my age. And I remember I confided in her that my parents had left Scientology. And this really senior person on the base who was reporting directly to my uncle, she basically told me that my friend Natalia had confessed that I told her everything about my parents. Like this was like a huge no-no. Like I was not allowed to tell anybody.

Starting point is 01:01:06 Yeah. And she told me that Natalia had confessed that I told her this. And then I was like, oh, okay. And then so then I was like, yeah, I did. Yeah. And then Natalia was like angry at me and even got like transferred to another base. And one time when I started an event, she was like, yeah, I was just like kind of a little bit upset because I just didn't think that you would ever tell. that. And I was like, I didn't. She told me you had. Oh, so they were just trying to pin you against

Starting point is 01:01:37 each other and see. Yeah, where they're trying to get the truth. And so even that little interaction with Italia, it's very rare to have that kind of loyalty in Scientology. Like, your friends think that they're hurting you by not reporting you. So it's like you're living in this world where it's like, who is my friend, who's not, who's going to put the organization first. And it winds up everyone's going to put the organization first because if they put you first, if they get declared a SP, they lose all of their family, all of their connections, which sorry, my stomach is. No, no, no, you're fine.

Starting point is 01:02:10 They lose all of their connections, which basically is their livelihood. Like if you don't have an education, which is how I grew up, you know, you only know other Scientologists that are going to give you a job. Like, you're basically screwed if you get kicked out or leave. And so it's like, that's the choice they're making all the time when they choose whether or not to report you. And I'm just curious, not even during this time period, but just in general, like, where is David in all of this? Like, how involved is he? We know he's like the face of everything. What's his house like? Where is he living? What's his day to day? Like, what's going on with him? With Uncle Dave.

Starting point is 01:02:47 Right. So Dave and Shelley are supposed to be Seorg members. That's how they started out. So they should be making $50 a week, living communally, all that stuff like the rest of us. But the truth is that they travel on private planes. They are driven everywhere they go. They wear like Armani suits that are tailored by a professional tailor. There's someone who comes in and does their nails and their hair. They have a private chef. And basically, they, they, mostly at the time we're at the international Scientology base, but they started spending a lot more time in Clearwater in the time when I was there. Not because of me, it was just because Clearwater is Scientology's big money-making base. There's a lot of Scientology things going on there. Also, the Lisa McPherson case was happening, and that was a big deal for Scientology. So between, those are the places that they are the most, and sometimes L.A. now. But he just lived, like, you know, they have a full-time steward. They have like just people working for them full-time waiting on them hand and foot. So he doesn't have his own private home. He goes in between the

Starting point is 01:03:59 facilities. Is that right? He has like a private home on the Scientology base. Oh, okay. At Hemet, yeah, which is like a whole, like there's several acres. And so he has his own private place. Live in luxury. Yes, like gorgeous. And then same with in Clearwater, Florida. He has his own, but it's not like a house or a mansion. It's on premises there. And he has his own place in L.A. And how active is he? Like, would he, if you were out digging trenches on the ranch, would you ever see him walking by? Or does he perform any of the audits or anything like? Like, how active is he just in kind of like the day-to-day grind? So he is like not around every day at all. He's like a special appearance where it's like he's coming, clean up the whole base

Starting point is 01:04:47 before he comes and make sure we make a good impression. But I wound up being around him a lot because I was at the int base when he was there. He would like if I was working, he would come pick me up or, you know, on Christmas, et cetera. But when I was at Clearwater, Florida, his offices were just down the hall from the organization that I was in. And so, but like at the ranch, maybe came there, like, once or twice. And does he get audited? I've heard not. I mean, who would do that audit, I guess?

Starting point is 01:05:20 Right, yeah. Well, so at some level in Scientology, you actually audit yourself. I'm going like this. I'm totally serious. I'm going like this because normally with the e-meter, you hold two cans. But when you are auditing yourself, you have two cans in one hand and you hold them at the same time. So, like, I don't mean to make light of this. But if you're auditing yourself and if you're holding it and you're like, Annie, have you been truthful today?

Starting point is 01:05:46 And the current shows, I'm going to tell yourself, have you? Like, couldn't you just like go round and around? Like, it just seems wild to me. Yeah, I mean, some people that literally have lost their mind doing this. You're supposed to be, so I don't know if you know. I did not know this the entire time when I was in Scientology. But when you reach a certain level, which is like called the Wall of Fire, you basically learn. that in Scientology they believe that there's this like alien dude named Zinu and he like lured

Starting point is 01:06:18 our spirits in and froze us into popsicles and then put us in a volcano and shot us back to earth but that we have these little spirits attached to us and they like whisper bad stuff to us and they're like- And people believe this. Yes, fully. Yeah. I mean, my parents did that level. But you're not allowed to talk about it. Like you think when you're there that if you learn about this thing that you're

Starting point is 01:06:41 before you've completed all the previous levels that you're like going to die like your mind is going to like you're there's something bad it's going to get scrambled and that you're going to like get sick and die so I was like terrified yeah um and then you know when I left I actually watched Southbark but even though I was out of Scientology I was like I'm still kind of afraid like yeah I asked my ex-husband to watch I was like can we test this on you can we test this on you I love that. Girl, and that's why he's my ex-husband. I'm actually a widow.

Starting point is 01:07:13 No, because then I would never know. So he survived, and then I survived. But then, you know, obviously, like, now there's been so many more ex-scientologists who've come forward confirming that this is the story. I think even Leah Remini has confirmed this. And my parents also confirmed it for me. Sorry, I forget how we got on to that. I was just talking about kind of like, yeah, him being involved auditing yourself, how you lose your mind, all the things. So after that level, oh, so after that level you audit yourself on the cans and you basically are trying to get rid of these like little beings that are attached to your body.

Starting point is 01:07:54 Yeah, so you're kind of like communicating with voices in your head. That feels really dangerous. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like some people have literally lost their mind while doing this. And so, but it's also like, you know, for him, I think it would be an easy way not to be forced to answer hard questions if somebody else is auditing you. Because when I was getting audited, I never did the solo auditing. Basically, the person would be like, yeah, you got to answer this question.

Starting point is 01:08:25 And we're not leaving this room until you answer. Yeah. So it's easy for him to be like, oh, I'll just audit myself. Yeah, you know. Exactly. So I actually think it was a cop out more than. Of course. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:35 Oh, man. And so what was the final straw that made you leave? And what was that day like? So I had come back to the base and it was all like, it was just so much worse than it had been. And there was also little things. Things that are small things, but they kind of put me over the edge. My parents had already left. And while I was in Australia, I was able to communicate with a little, communicate with them a little bit. And they had started to tell me things like that basically my mom witnessed my uncle beating people. people. So there is a lot of that out there. Yes. And so your mom had said she's witnessed it. She witnessed it firsthand. And is it just, I would imagine what, other Scientologists who step out of line? It was basically other senior executives who he was essentially blaming for the Scientology not like doing so amazingly well. He would just blame them for everything and punish them for it. Keep them imprisoned in this trailer, make them sleep under their desks. By the way, even at my level where I was at, like, they were trying to make us stay up

Starting point is 01:09:40 night after night after night. And I would, like, I would be like, no, I'm going to bed. And other people would be like, yes, please keep saying that we're going to go to bed. We'll stay. We'll do this with you. And then they would always like bail because they would get in trouble. And so they were trying to make us stay up night after night. Like they would even give us like B12 shots in order to keep us energized. It's because that's what will wear you down. And again, it's psychological war. It's keeping you up. It's keeping you exhausted to where it not only wears you down, but then it makes it easier to plant these ideas and these thoughts into your mind. And it's awful. Exactly. Yes. And then they would also like go around and like just they would do things that I always thought I was in Scientology to help people. But they would go around the offices. Like they would have certain enforcers and they would be like, you can't have this protein bar in your desk. Throw it away. So we're already getting $50 a week. We had to pay for the protein bar, and they would force you to throw it away on the spot.

Starting point is 01:10:39 We didn't have money to spend. We were hungry because, you know, when you eat at 6 o'clock at night and you are up all night or you don't go home until midnight on the good nights, then, so they were just going around doing these needless things and they'd be like, you're not allowed to listen to music, turn off the music. They would do things that weren't even in alignment with Scientology's policies. Just to be a tyrant. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:11:00 Exactly. And I had gotten a hold of a cell phone at that time and a few other people had. And then they made this base-wide thing. We had never been allowed to have cell phones before. But they tried to make this base-wide thing where they were going to take away the cell phones. And I wound up being the last person on the base willing to give, like, I was like, no, you're not taking away my cell phone. And there was just so much pressure put on me. So it was between hearing the things from my parents, seeing what was going on, and being in the mindset of somebody who I truly cared about people, I thought I was sacrificing everything in Scientology.

Starting point is 01:11:35 I could help people. And when I saw them basically going around to my friends and saying, you can't have food, you can't have music, you can't sleep. And you guys are destroying everything in Scientology. You're horrible. It became this like switching moment where I was like, these aren't the actions of people who actually care about helping people. And I even tried to get myself changed to a different position where I was like only doing Scientology counseling to see if like even Scientology worked and that didn't go well and I went counseling again to confirm that you were performing the audits then yes but I was only going through the training like I like so there's just a few audits that you do in training but they were like harmless things like teaching

Starting point is 01:12:19 people better or people learning to communicate better or whatever I was never interrogating anybody but and it was just like you do brief things at the end of each training level I never became a full-on counselor but you wanted to see if there were other departments that maybe would feel like, okay, now we're back on track. This is a better fit. We are helping people. Exactly. And it didn't materialize. It didn't materialize. And they, I don't care about this now, but they weren't even following Scientology's policies. Scientology policies are horrible enough, but they weren't even going by their own. Like, if the policies said staff had a few rights, they ignored those and they brush them aside consistently. And because of who my uncle was,

Starting point is 01:13:01 the people who I saw doing it to me were at the highest level. So I think it was easier for me to see that, no, no, this isn't people down at the lower level messing it up. It's coming from the top. They care less about Scientology and about people than even people at the lower level. And so it was weird. Like I knew I didn't like it, but there became a point where my body was like, nope, like we can't go back to work today. We're not doing this. Like it was even like if I wanted to it was weird because I was always out of touch with my body because I was always working my ass off sleeping I mean not sleeping and like I thought I was a spiritual being and I thought any illness I had I could heal through my mind so my body was just considered a meat body that I happened

Starting point is 01:13:48 to have this lifetime but it was like my body that kind of saved me that was like we're not doing it yeah yeah I was like we can't and I was just like this was the first time I felt that way I was like, we just can't go back. And then I was like, I'm done. I'm done. Yeah. Now, you've said, you've been pretty outspoken how when you left there, Scientology is pretty, it's known for its intimidation tactics. It's stalking. It's just smear campaigns, all sorts of things. There's actually, I'm not going to name her on here for just in case she doesn't want to be put on blast, but there is another creator who a couple of years ago did like a full deep dive into Scientology, multiple episodes, and ended up having a lot of retaliation from them being

Starting point is 01:14:29 followed, harassed, all the way overseas to London, as a matter of fact. And I think there's been so many people who have said firsthand that they have experienced that and that they've been threatened and that their reputation has been destroyed and that there are these, again, just very calculated smear campaigns and, you know, very dangerous things. And so my point is that you've been outspoken about what it was like for you after you left and how there were people who stood outside your door at certain times and did certain things. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. So starting off as I was leaving, Scientology first, basically you have to go through an interrogation before you leave in order to remain in good standing. And so if you don't, then you basically never get to talk to any of your friends or anything like that again. And they wanted me to do that. And I was like, I just can't. Like, I'm not going to. And basically, they also handed me this contract thing saying, I agree to pay millions of dollars if I speak badly about Scientology. And I was basically like, at this point, I was like, no.

Starting point is 01:15:36 I just like shredded it up and basically like dropped it in their face. And so they were telling my husband at the time, who had said he wanted to leave with me. They were basically like, if she leaves and doesn't do this interrogation, we will make sure you never see your family again. So they started secretly taking him off and he would like be coming home later because I would just stay in my room all day while I was going through this. And I was basically waiting for him to leave with me. And they basically convinced him that my family was bad and that if he and that I was bad and they were doing this with him every day for hours on end. Like just basically brainwashing him, having him on the e-meter and that sort of thing. And he wasn't telling me.

Starting point is 01:16:19 He was lying to me. Of course. Yeah. And then finally it came down to it like where I was like, all right, well, like he was basically finally like after me like always trying to get a straight answer out of him. He was like, yeah, I'm not going to go with you. And I was like really upset. I was heartbroken. You know, we had been through so much together. And basically I was like, all right, well, I'm leaving. And we were both crying. And Scientology was basically like, he can't even take you to the airport. Yeah. Because at that point, you You're deemed an SP. Exactly. Yes. Now, he was like, no, I'm going to take her to the airport. This is the last time I'm going to see my wife, who I've been married to for three years, and he basically said he was going to take me.

Starting point is 01:17:05 So they basically put themselves in the car, like right between us, refused to let us have any privacy. At the airport, I was like just so heartbroken. The girl was standing right there, this girl who worked in Scientology's Office of Special Affairs, which is basically, they're like CIA. They handle who they consider enemies of Scientology. They handle their legal issues. They're basically the ones that stalk and harass people and make their lives miserable forever talking out, speaking out about Scientology. And so she was like in our face. Finally, I told him, I was like, look, if you want to stay, I'll stay here and I'll get through my program. I was kind of tricking him. And then he wound up basically like, I guess like feeling loved and

Starting point is 01:17:45 loyalty from this and he was like well this is what's really been happening they've been pulling me aside every day and and how were they not hearing this or they were she was there and i but because we were in a public place because all scientology cares about is PR yeah it's literally all they care about like it's funny even in my um my thing declaring me in SP like they have this issue like they they mentioned this incident and they're like she yelled at me and this created bad PR for Scientology. Because I was like, get away. Leave me and my husband alone. Because I knew that that's all they cared about. Yeah. All matters is perception at that point. Exactly. Okay. So he's telling you the truth of what's been happening. She wound up like going away

Starting point is 01:18:28 because it was like otherwise I was going to create a scene. But she kept calling him on the phone over and over again. I like literally broke the phone and half. I was like, I was at my wits end at this point. Yeah. And so he told me everything that had been happening. He was like, I'm sorry. I've been hiding it from you. And then I was, so basically we went back and we were like, okay, well, I'll do my program. And then they were like, well, no, now you have to leave. You're too much trouble, which was true. By the end, I was trouble. Like, I couldn't deal with it anymore. They're like, no, no, no, no, girl, no take back. See, we're not. We don't want you. Yeah. So they tried to separate. And also I was at this point, I was in touch with my parents.

Starting point is 01:19:09 And I felt, I feel like there was like no going back. They, yeah, they weren't going to be able to tricky back in. Yeah. And for the first time, I actually had a place to go. Like my parents at least were out. Or now I was with somebody who had family, who actually were a Scientologist. Anyways, we'll get into that. And had you seen your parents in person again at this point? Or had you only communicated on the phone? I had seen them once when I was, I believe it was when I was 17. And then they had allowed me to visit my parents once for Christmas. Okay. And how old were you when you left? I was 21. I was almost 22. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And so we went back and basically they were like, no, you can't come back. Dallas come with us. We're going to separate you again. He was like, no, we're not doing that again. And he wound up being like, okay, well, I'm done too. Let us go get our stuff. We'll drive down to San Diego, which is where he grew up. And they're like, no, you can't go get your stuff. You're out. You have to leave. So basically like my parents had like sent me a credit card that. just in case of emergencies, and Scientology had passed it through to me, but they were like,

Starting point is 01:20:17 this is so that they can never say we didn't give it to you. And so, like, we wound up staying at the travelage. The next morning when we woke up, there was this huge, or not huge, it was like a U-Haul trailer packed with all of our stuff. There was like a full inventory of like every little single thing that was in there down to the number of Q-tips. Like someone had been up all night packing our stuff. And taking inventory of everything. Wow. What they do also is take away any photos you have that they think are in criminal. So this is their chance to go through your stuff to make sure that you don't have anything that could hurt them in any way. It's actually illegal for them not to let me go get my stuff. Yeah, that seems crazy. Yeah, it is crazy.

Starting point is 01:21:00 And so. And I'm just curious, what would have happened if you would have basically said to them, like, sorry, I'm going to curse, but like, fuck off. I'm grabbing my stuff and it just started walking. towards your stuff would they physically restrain you definitely yeah like we actually started doing that and they were like she's coming and the security guards were there now what I should have done at the time was call the cops but I didn't like I had no real experience with the outside world I didn't really know my rights it's something that I'm still learning right now of course um so and then basically this head security guard like looked right at my ex-husband and he was like I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure your family never see

Starting point is 01:21:40 speaks to you again. Oh my gosh. Because his family was still in it. Yes. So we, so he wanted to go to San Diego, which is where his family was. So I went with him. So we went together. But his, his family members were Scientologists. They were still active Scientology members. So basically Scientology was like spying on us, like seeing where our cars were parked. They were constantly calling his parents trying to get information from them about us. I started working at his parents' jewelry store, and they were constantly trying to get me to go back into Scientology. They were even trying to get, like, this guy who worked there was trying to audit me, and they were just trying to get information constantly.

Starting point is 01:22:20 They were trying to get me to go back there and get what Scientology calls a committee of evidence or to get my interrogation. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, leave me alone. But his, but my husband's parents were basically like, with my husband, they wanted to have him be in good standing as a Scientologist, which involved. So when you leave the Seorg, you have to pay for all of the courses you are ever made to take while you were in the Seorre, which is like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. So they wanted him to pay what's called your freeloader debt. So even though

Starting point is 01:22:58 I worked for them since I was a kid. How on earth am I ever going to pay this at $50 a week? Like, are you out of your freaking mind? Well, you're not making $50 a week anymore because you only have to pay it when you leave. Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah. But still, it's like the height of insanity. Like, I was a slave labor. I'm not a freeloader. You guys are the freeloaders. But so they were trying to pressure him to do that. And I was like, I was like, absolutely not. So he was kind of still brainwashed. My ex-husband was, he wound up reading a book, got unbrainedwashed. But it was just like this, it just caused strife between me and his family. Of course. Constantly at the workplace. up working somewhere else. But one time when we were at work at the jewelry store, someone

Starting point is 01:23:41 called in and they were like, I want to talk to Dallas Hill. And they're like, yeah, I'm just a good Samaritan. Someone's following you. And he was like, huh? Like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I have a police scanner. Your wife went to this hairdresser yesterday. You went here and here and here. And I'm just saying there's two of them. One's a man. One's a woman. And they've been following you for months now. Wow. I've talked to you about it before, but I'm going to talk to you about them again because I love them so much. And it is function health. It's the only health platform that gives you access to the kind of data that most people never see. And they give you insights so that you can actually take action. You can test over 160 biomarkers ranging from health, heart, hormone, toxins, inflammation, stress, you name it. You can also access multi-region, MRI, and CTC. scans, and it's all tracked in one secure place over time. And it's kind of like this enhanced bird's eye view of what's actually happening in your body. That's why top health leaders

Starting point is 01:24:45 are all behind function health. Not only do I choose function health, I really believe in them. For example, most people think like, oh, okay, if I have low iron, I'll just take an iron supplement, no big deal. But here's the thing, having low iron might not even be the issue. And taking the supplements could actually backfire. Iron plays several essential roles. It's part of like this hemoglobin which carries oxygen in the blood. It supports both energy production and immune function. But in order to be absorbed and transported and stored properly, iron relies on ferretin and copper. Ferritin is in your iron storage protein. Kind of think of it like a bank, okay? And so if you have low ferretin, it means that the body's reserves are running low. But if you have high,

Starting point is 01:25:31 then that can reflect iron overload and other stress in the body because that rises during illness and inflammation. And look, again, I sound like I've been watching too much gray's anatomy, but it's real. So you can actually like see a full glance, get learnings, get insights into what's actually happening in your body. So I use this and you should too. Learn more and join by using my special link. Visit functionhealth.com slash a.E. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash a.e. So they were following us. There was also somebody who had been a friend of ours in Scientology. He basically showed up at our work one day, said he was in a bad place that he needed help.

Starting point is 01:26:20 He needed support. And we let him live with us and even work there for a few months. And it just wound up that he was basically reporting on us. entire time. Did your uncle try reaching out to you at all during all of this or Shelley? He did not because at this point like so many years later documents have come out that Mike Rinder had in his possession that were basically his exchange exchanges with my uncle at that time. So because it's considered a legal issue of concern for the church, my uncle has to put like spacers between me and whoever my hand

Starting point is 01:27:01 are. So basically so you can have plausible deniability. And so that's what was happening. In addition, even the whole time I was in Scientology, it was like this weird vibe of like family means nothing. Yeah. Like that's how it's supposed to be. But then I would still be involved with my uncle and my aunt. So it was sort of this like cognitive dissonance. Like family's supposed to mean nothing. So I guess it means nothing. But also they're paying close attention to me. And it means everything because I'm trying to impress that. Yeah. Yeah. And why do they care so much about what I'm doing if it really means something? So it was just always like this mind fuck going on all the time. So no, he didn't reach out to me because I think that, you know, he was afraid that it would have been something. And so to this

Starting point is 01:27:47 same degree, I feel like me having spoken publicly about it, I actually think it was a degree of protection for me. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think anybody who has the courage and strength to speak out, you're taking your power back and you're removing it from them because you're like, no, I'm not going to live in the shadows anymore. I'm not going to stay quiet. If something, God forbid, does happen to me, I'm on a record now. I have put this out there and that makes them more nervous and scared. Exactly. That's exactly what I think that it was. And so I remember when I, I believe it was like in, so the first time I spoke out was, I remember there had been a biography written about Tom Cruise, and it had sort of roasted Scientology and talked about the RPF, the rehabilitation part of course, a bunch of things, and it said how they destroy families.

Starting point is 01:28:38 And Scientology had issued this statement saying, we love families. Families are great. And it just, it made me so angry. I was like, not only do they not feel bad about anything they do, but they are so arrogant that they can go out there and tell these lies to everyone and think that they can get away. with it while they are ruining my family and my relationship with my in-laws and my husband as we speak. And so I wound up, like, writing a letter to the woman who had written this rebuttal thing. And then, like, it got picked up by the media, and I was doing, I was doing something, I had done something with ABC Nightline. And they had sent some, like, senior executive Scientologist down to meet with me and my ex-husband. And they were just, like, trying to show me all of these Scientology policies and being like, you know, you can't be doing

Starting point is 01:29:31 this. It's bad. I was like, guys, those policies mean nothing to me. Yeah. They're like, you signed a billion-year contract. You're all, eat shit. Like, get out of here. Get out of my face. Yeah. And they were even like, well, what would it take for you to not do this? And I was like, well, I would like for you to make it. So all CERG members get the, a week, a day off every other week like they're supposed to get. That's like the bare minimum. A day off every other one. week? Exactly. Yeah. And so they were like, they were CERG members and they were like, but we like working this hard. I was like, okay, like this isn't happening. And then that same day, we were being followed by PIs and I was just like, F this. Like it's done. I never really considered stopping, but I did consider them like, you know, if they're able to have some reform or change things for people, then that would matter to me. Well, I think that that's important because you had even mentioned earlier that when you were looking at switching departments is because your goal was wanting to help people. And when you were starting to get doubts and you wanted to see, like, is this

Starting point is 01:30:35 still an organization that helps people? So that tracks where is if they maybe did say like, okay, we will do some reform with the C.org, with the ranch, with this and that, I could see where you, and I totally would understand where you'd be like, okay, then I won't be so outspoken. Like, thank you for doing this. You're improving the conditions. You're helping people because that's who you are in your core. Yes, exactly. That's what matters. to me. And so just that didn't happen. And so I just wound up sort of moving forward from that point. And wow. Yeah. And so when my parents had left Scientology, they had not really told anybody in their life that they were in Scientology. And many people who had left Scientology

Starting point is 01:31:18 kind of like kept it a secret. And I wound up, you know, when I got a new job, I wound up approaching it differently because people like normal people always ask questions like where are you from where did you go to school and I'm like Jesus Christ are you the police or something like I was always like how do I answer these questions and so I just wound up being up front with people and I found that people were very kind in a way that I'd never experienced before like they'd be like oh wow oh my God I'm so sorry yeah and I was like oh they're nice like and so I felt I guess I felt like safe and that kind of like everyone, even though I was speaking out, everyone who I knew knew where I was coming from and they knew that if anything happened to me, it would be them. And I was speaking about it publicly.

Starting point is 01:32:06 Well, and it's so interesting because like coming from the inside out, it's like, and I'm not speaking for everyone in the population, but I could confidently say I would imagine 90% of the population who are not Scientologists have a certain opinion about Scientology. So to your point, when you're confiding and sharing that, you more than likely, nine times out of 10, probably 9.9 times out of 10 will be, you know, on the other end, somebody will be understanding, sympathetic, you know, kind to you because I think just the general perspective in the outside world of Scientology is this is a cult. This is horrific. This is exploitation. Like, this is awful. And so I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to share. And I would imagine that that hope, or I would hope I should say, that that would be a little bit cathartic for you to just share more and be honest and feel like you can lift that weight a little bit. Right. That's totally how it was. Like it actually made me feel really good about the world that I had grown up being so afraid of was how nice, how people were allowed to be kind to each other. They weren't required to report on each other. They weren't going to tell on you. They were actually going to care about you and check on you. And things like that just made me just made me so happy to not really be in Scientology anymore and then um

Starting point is 01:33:25 when I eventually wrote my book I had kids around the same time and so I wrote my book and you know I did a book tour and that did well but I feel like when I became a mom I basically was like if I fuck this up then I won't be able to live with myself because of my own upbringing and I just like threw every little bit of myself into it and like was just like trying to be the most perfect mom in the entire universe but there was other things like still going on like once you leave Scientology like it doesn't all just go away like if you grew up not in a home like never really being loved or doted on or nobody like looking out for your best interest not having anyone you can fight on it's like this is a lifetime thing.

Starting point is 01:34:18 Yeah, of course. You deal with it for the rest of your life. And so, you know, at that moment, like, I, like, going through my kids' childhood, it taught me so much more about myself, my own life. It made me kind of remember bad things and also not be like, oh, well, why, like, why didn't my parents want to be around me? Or it just put my situation in perspective. It's like a mirror just shining back on you. Yes. I was like, okay, I thought of myself like, oh, I'm fine.

Starting point is 01:34:48 But when I imagine things happening to my kids that happened to me, it actually makes me furious, not just on my behalf, but for all kids who grew up there. Because you're a human. You're a normal human. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And having this organization is still out there that just thinks that they can get away with everything. But I kind of had to partition my mind, like where I can't be angry for this period because I have to be a good mom. And so I was raising my kids for many years. Now my daughter's 13. My son is 16 and I got divorced a couple years ago. Me and my ex-husband are still great friends. We have a great relationship. We've been through so much together. But we did get married when we were 18 in a cult. There's that. There's that. Yes. Has he gone back to Scientology? No, no. He's totally. Yeah. He's not in Scientology. His parents took a while to get out of Scientology. like they're not active Scientologist but I think they still I think when you get out when you're older it's hard to let go of some of these things it's your belief system and it's ingrained in you

Starting point is 01:35:56 yeah and it makes you have to like rethink your choices you made for your children in your whole life and so um his dad has passed away now but his mom like she doesn't practice it she's not involved but like occasionally she'll say certain things that I'm like yeah but um yeah so I think that sort of like entering into like this healing phase of like, you know, now that I'm divorced, I have a little bit of sometimes time to myself where I'm able to get back into more of the Scientology things. And really, while I always put my kids first, it's like for the first time in my life, I'm learning to value myself and my opinions. And because when I was, was raising my kids, I was in a little bit of an atmosphere where people were all ex-scientologists. I

Starting point is 01:36:49 kind of had to push how I felt down in order to survive in that arena where I sort of became a little bit of a shadow of myself after losing everyone I'd ever known from Scientology. And so now I feel like I'm speaking out again because I'm kind of coming back to myself. That's great. Yeah. Like I'm starting to like go back to the old me where I'm living life. on my own terms, and I'm actually valuing myself in a way that I was never taught to my entire life. I love that so much because I think, too, nobody has the kind of knowledge that you have about this situation, no matter how much research is done, whatever books are read, and I would imagine that that gives you, or it at least should, it should give you a lot of purpose.

Starting point is 01:37:38 And you should be incredibly proud of that because nobody can learn the way that you are now delivering this information and educating the public on it. And I totally get what you meant by you became a shadow of yourself and you had to suppress that because you were surrounded by ex-scientologist and it's like now you're getting back into your space, feeling confident, sharing that and having your voice be heard. And I think that's so powerful. Thank you. I love that so much. I have to ask. There's some questions that I know people are going to like want to kill me if I don't ask. And it's what people probably always ask. I'm going to hit you some questions. If anything is too sensitive or too controversial, just say, not answering that.

Starting point is 01:38:19 Okay. What are, would you say, are some of the top, call it top three or top five, like unknown dark secrets of Scientology? You mentioned your uncle and, like, the closed door beatings and things like that. Like, what are some, like, dark parts that maybe are a little bit less known? well my biggest thing about Scientology is how they basically use children as slave labor they did in my time now I don't think that they are they allow like they don't have the cadet orgs like they did but but children are still allowed to get Scientology auditing and training and that training consists of things that are entirely inappropriate for children like where you basically are required to do certain communication drills where you are violently hazed and where there's an adult in my case who's basically pointing out things about your growing body in a room full of other adults and you're basically learning not to react if somebody treats you badly or makes fun of you or whatever what age does that start at that started when I was 12 oh my gosh but this is if so this this is if a child is training to become a counselor, which Scientology moms on their Facebook groups or even Scientology itself puts out certificates of like 16-year-olds holding

Starting point is 01:39:51 their certificate completing this course. Well, that's what being on that course means. Like, not just me for everyone, for all of the other kids who were on that course at the same time as me. That's a huge problem. That's teaching a kid to normalize sexual harassment and abuse. Yes, absolutely. So also, when a child becomes a counselor, they learn to take confessions. So they wind up being in situations where they're taking confessions from adults of the same sex, of the opposite sex, talking about their personal, private, intimacy things that they did that they feel are sins.

Starting point is 01:40:29 And they're having to live with that and store that information. Yes, they're having to write it down. They're having to take these confessions from adults, and it's completely inappropriate. it. Children are also required to give these confessions. Like, I'll just give you an example. Like, in Scientology growing up, like touching yourself was not allowed. And if you do, you have to confess it. And you're confessing it on an e-meter with a video camera. If you try to leave the room, you're physically barred from leaving the room. Part of training as a counselor is practicing how to stop people from leaving a room. I tried to leave the room many times during a confession. and was physically barred, was even chased down the street.

Starting point is 01:41:11 And so you're basically required to give these confessions. And they don't just, you don't just say what you did. They say, when was it? Where was it? How many times? Give me all of the details. There's no adult in the room. In my case, my parents were across the country.

Starting point is 01:41:29 And when they're recording it in this way and writing it down, and then they're passing this information like each counseling session has a case supervisor. this is actually child p yeah but you don't see it like that when you're there but this still happens right now yes this still happens right now in Scientology there are Scientology schools that have had serious issues with child SA but in Scientology you are forbidden to report another Scientologist to the authorities so instead I just want to make sure I'm understanding this right And for those listening, I know you abbreviated the word porn. I appreciate that.

Starting point is 01:42:09 You know what, though? We're going to just say it's because it is so important and it's a very serious issue. So in these auditing sessions and these counseling sessions, other children and adults sometimes would disclose when they would masturbate, when they would have sexual relations, different things like that, oftentimes child to child, which is what I assume you mean by the child porn because then adults are watching it. it's video recorded, they're recounting these events. Exactly. But then even further, there has been child sexual assault. Yes, as a separate thing. As a separate thing in the organization, but because you're not allowed to tell the authority

Starting point is 01:42:48 about another Scientologist, you then go to this counseling session to report it and work through it. Exactly. So where in fact, you also, like just say you're the predator who did this thing, right? you have to pay for your counseling session where you tell this. So Scientology is making money off of this confession. Of your trauma and your and your predatory behaviors and what's happened. Exactly. And in some way giving you absolution.

Starting point is 01:43:18 How much is a counseling session? I think it varies in different Scientology churches. You pay by 12 hours. And so I actually never had to pay for it because, and to be honest, most of the time I was given interrogations. Like I actually wasn't moving up the chart. It was just like side interrogations just to harass the shit out of me. You said, though, that's really interesting.

Starting point is 01:43:41 You said sometimes they'll give absolution to where then they get the repentance that they were after. Which is like, no, I'm sorry. You deserve jail time. You freak. Exactly. And nothing is done with the victims. Nothing. Like I've been on the other side of that.

Starting point is 01:43:56 And nothing was done. And also just to like maybe give another example of what we're talking about. And if this is jumping around, we don't have to. No, no, no, please. But just about the child pee aspect of it. Like, so for example, like, when my parents were leaving, I was being security or I was being interrogated. The Scientology word is security check, but I'm using a regular word.

Starting point is 01:44:16 Okay, so by this woman who was at least 35 years old, in a room with a video camera on, and she was saying, like, did you violate our rules of sexual behavior? And so I was like, no. And she was like, well, what's that? What are you thinking of? What's that right there? She would be looking at the emmeter. And I would say, well, I kiss this boy.

Starting point is 01:44:36 That's not violating the rules. And she'd be like, okay, but you were forbidden to date this boy. So we're going to take this up as a sin. And I was like, well, I don't think it is. But she was like, all right, well, when was it? It was in this place. Okay, like, how close was he standing to you? Like, all this are reliving it.

Starting point is 01:44:55 Oh, yeah. Like, did you feel his private parts? Like, what kind of underwear were you? you wearing? Oh, my gosh. Were you wearing those underwear on purpose in case, like, he saw them? Like, so this is me when I was 16 years old. And I, like, I told her over and over I didn't want to be in the room. I didn't want the video recording on. It doesn't, like, it just didn't matter. But this is something that a Scientologist would not see as problematic. They would see it as her saving me by confessing. And I myself was like, well, I have no right to leave this room.

Starting point is 01:45:29 but I had no, my parents weren't there, like, I had, unbelievable. Yeah, and this is totally normal. Oh my gosh, that is infuriating. Yeah, so that still goes on in Scientology today, whether you're a Seorg member or whether you're just a paying member. That still happens in Scientology today. And that's a big, like on some level, although I don't love adults being there, like, I feel like they have some options. Not many. I still empathize with them, but being a kid, it's like you have

Starting point is 01:46:05 none. No, you're just indoctrine into this cult to where you don't have any other knowledge or way of thinking or like any life outside of that. And so you're almost built and set up for failure. Exactly. Exactly. It's horrible. Yeah. And to have no other options. And so that's my biggest, that's my biggest thing about Scientology. They do other things like they, They screw over the elderly who work with them. And also, like we touched on briefly, my uncle actually taking these high-level Scientology executives who would speak at Scientology events and basically imprisoning them in these trailers and making fun of them, hazing them, making, like, brainwashing them to go after each other in order to save themselves and literally physically beating them. Like, and this, like, these accounts have come from multiple different Scientology executives who have left, and there's just so many stories of it that corroborate each other, that it's impossible not to believe. Do you think your uncle is just, at this point, he's such a powerful person, and he has so many people who work for him, who report underneath him to where he just feels untouchable and, like, he's God?

Starting point is 01:47:22 I think so. I think that what you described is right, but I also think that with, you know, he's able to access the internet. He knows what the outside world is saying about him or about Scientology. And I think that gives him a certain level of paranoia. Let me ask you this. Do you think that your uncle still believes in Scientology as wholeheartedly as maybe he did in the beginning? Or do you think through all of this and through seeing what the Internet says and not being shielded like so many other members are that he now understands more or less like or has doubts about it, but it's still rolling with it because it's financially beneficial for him? He has power. Like do you think he knows it's a cult?

Starting point is 01:48:22 And, or do you think he fully is immersed in a believer? I feel like that's the question that I have. I, when I learned all of the things that he knows, has known this whole time as a kid, I was like, nope. Like, meaning, like, we're taught in Scientology to believe that. Elron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, intentionally dropped his body, which has died. And he was moving on to Target 2, where he was going to heal that planet. He knows that Elron Hubbard died a lunatic, like a normal person, and, like, it wasn't cute. He's known that this whole time.

Starting point is 01:49:01 I don't see how an adult man who knows all the people who have tried to sue Scientology, who knows, like, even Elron Hubbard had certain levels of Scientology that he promised that he would release at some point. Well, Scientology doesn't really have those. Elron Hubbard didn't actually write those. The executives have come out saying that, yeah, that's not true. Basically, there were just ramblings of a madman. I mean, even the Zeno stuff, which they did release. Like, that was a crazy person enough. Anyways, so my uncle knows everything.

Starting point is 01:49:35 I don't, like, I just do not see how he could possibly still believe in this. In every way. Not only that, but you're taught to believe that in Scientology. When you get up to the higher levels, you're going to get these godlike powers, It's like telepathy, to exist independent of your body. He can't do that. And he knows that. And he knows he's the main guy.

Starting point is 01:49:58 So if he can't do it, who can? Yeah. So when I was still in, when I was talking to my aunt Shelley, she was definitely still a true believer. So it has now been many, many years. I just don't see how he can be. It makes no sense to me. That's actually my next question.

Starting point is 01:50:18 Everybody always is asking, especially the last. several years. Where is Shelly? Give proof of life. Let us know that you're okay. To your knowledge, and I know that there has been mentioned of some sightings of her in Arrowhead here in California, going to the hairdresser, doing things like that. Based on like your experience and any knowledge you have in the family, when is the last time that someone spoke to Shelly? I believe it was when her father died in 2007. Okay. And the last time that a confirmed sighting has happened, when was that? In the family?

Starting point is 01:50:57 Yeah. I don't know because we're not all in touch with each other. People in the family have to stay away from me in order to be in touch with other people in the family. So nobody, like, speaks under the radar or anything? You don't have to say if you don't want to. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:51:14 Okay. That's fine. But I am in touch with people. who like the thing is that like i get my information from a source that i completely trust but in order to basically put other people give other people peace of mind i would have to tell them everything but that's that's not good for in order to keep this source there and knowing that they can tell things so yeah um so but it is somebody who Like, it's, I absolutely believe them and, yeah.

Starting point is 01:51:54 Do you think that your Aunt Shelley is still involved in Scientology, or do you think that she has tried breaking away? And that's why she's not seen or heard from. She's absolutely still involved in Scientology. I mean, the base that she is at, where she works, it's basically what they do is they put Scientology scripture onto these titanium plates so that Scientology scripture can survive a nuclear holocaust. So she works at that base, which is a very high level of base. But I guess my question is, do we know she's even still at that base if nobody has seen her? Well, nobody outside of – well, so people have seen her. When's the last time somebody saw her?

Starting point is 01:52:36 Like people on the base, you mean, are seeing her? Sorry, I'm just like – No, that's okay. That's okay. I mean, like, could we just like, this is between you and me. Yeah, we'll talk after. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But I'm not sure.

Starting point is 01:52:50 how to answer your question without um you don't have to okay well yeah we'll just talk after so people she's still very much involved she is okay she's healthy she's a a willing participant yes absolutely yes okay and i want to touch on this too because oh here's my question with that i guess too is and i don't know if you have the answer to this but with so much public public speculation out there of where shelly david tell us where shelly is what'd you do to her did she try to leave if she is a willing participant and if she is still there and is being seen on the base regularly, why not just, it's giving Scientology a bad rap and bad press, which they obviously are hyper-focused on. So why wouldn't she just come forward and say, hey, I'm here, I'm fine,

Starting point is 01:53:39 all is good. I'm going to, you know, retreat for another 10 years. Right. Totally. That's a great question. And the answer is, as much as Scientology cares about bad press, they're also extremely petty and vengeful, and they have certain rules in Scientology with how to deal with critics of Scientology. And if they were to bring Shelley forward, in my opinion, I feel like they would be setting a precedent that every time Leah Remini or some other SP critic starts demanding people that they're going to now have to bring them out and show them. And the truth is that as much as Shelley is missing, there's so many other people who were never involved with any celebrities who would ask where they were. You know, She wasn't really a public Scientology. She didn't speak at Scientology

Starting point is 01:54:31 events. So there's so many other people who are missing in the same way that Shelley is missing, which really they're just members of a cult. So we could start this for every member of Scientology. And so it would be setting a precedent where Scientology now has to do something for someone who they hate, prove them right, Leah Remini. And then they would have to, what if they didn't do that for the next person? Does that mean that they could produce Shelly, but then they couldn't produce this other person? That's a interesting take. And I saw too on one of your latest videos, you said Shelly was equally as evil as your Uncle David and would barricade. and, you know, hold people, like, not trap them.

Starting point is 01:55:16 I mean, maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth. And to where I then saw your comment section kind of flood with like, oh, instead of like save Shelley, where She's now saying, fuck Shelly. Like, she's a part of this. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, it's hard to say, like, like, I don't think Shelly is as evil as my uncle, but at this point, like, what does it matter? Like, she was his right hand woman this entire time from the beginning of when he became

Starting point is 01:55:42 the leader up until, like, I guess, 2005, but still that's the entire time I was there. Yeah. You know, at that time, children were still being trained in these boarding schools. SA was being covered up in these boarding schools. Adults who committed the essay were being sent to the RPF, like the Rehabilitation Project Force, and none of this was reported. So she was a part of everything my uncle did. Everybody there who worked with them knows that this is true.

Starting point is 01:56:12 Yeah. She was his right-hand person, knew of everything, and was directly involved in my treatment the entire time. It was Shelly who said, you may not call your parents. Oh, my gosh. It was Shelly who ordered me to get these interrogations and who ordered someone to stand outside my door all the time in case I tried to escape. So it's hard. Like, she also grew up there. So did my parents.

Starting point is 01:56:37 So did my uncle. But at some point, it's like. Yes, we all grew up there. It was all horrible. But you have to be responsible for the choices you make in your life, especially if they're illegal. Yes, absolutely. And when children are involved, it's like all the gloves are off. Like it's time to like figure it out. Be an adult. And to your point, be responsible for your actions. Exactly. Even if you were once a child there. You know, unfortunately, many abusers were also abused. And that's the sad part of the story. And I can have empathy for Shelley. because of that, but when she stops being a part of it, you know, that's when, you know, and this is like on a whole other scale. I mean, this is a whole systemic organization that is that is doing these things all day every day. Oh my gosh. It's awful. It's awful. So I want to just

Starting point is 01:57:31 then, you know, leave off with a simple question, which I think I know the answer to. As David Misscavage's niece. Do you believe Scientology is a cult? Yes, Scientology is definitely a cult. Okay. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today and for speaking with me. Is there anything else that you feel like you want people to know? No, I mean, I think we covered so much. But I am really grateful for all of the outpouring of support that I get, people who are willing to share my story. I'm really thankful to you. And just so many people like, I don't know if you've heard of Streets, L.A., but he's out there. Like, I see him actively stopping kids from going into being recruited by Scientology, or Jessica Palmedessa, or Aaron Smith-Levin, actively spreading

Starting point is 01:58:19 the word about Scientology. Like, it just means so much to me. When I imagine myself as a kid in there, like, I just wish that these people were around. And so, yeah, I just want to say thank you to you and thanks to everyone else who's sharing my story. Thank you. All right. I know today was a little bit longer of an episode, but I really appreciate you guys tuning in. I am so thrilled that Jenna was able to come in studio and share her perspective and her firsthand account of her experience. It's so powerful and so brave. And so thank you for hearing her story as well. And we'll just keep an eye on this. Hopefully, I don't start having spies outside of my office or my house, but if it happens, you guys know who is to blame, right? If something goes down,

Starting point is 01:59:04 you know who is after me for doing this. this episode. But again, it is one that was too important to not share. So thank you so much for being here today. And we're going to sign off by saying this, don't join a cult. Don't join Scientology. All right, guys, thanks so much. Bye.

SERIALously - 311: David Miscavige’s Niece Jenna Joins to Talk About Her Escape & His Dark Secrets

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