SERIALously - 335: 17 Year Old Stabbed His Twin Sister To Death While She Slept | The Case of Meghan Elliot

Starting point is 00:00:00 At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. Sentencing hearing for Benjamin Elliott. On Monday, he was convicted of murder in connection to the stabbing death of his twin sister, Megan.

Starting point is 00:00:36 Benjamin Elliott was 17 years old when police say he stabbed his twin sister to death while he was sleepwalking. But the defense says no, it wasn't murder, and that Elliot was suffering from a sleep disorder. Is he the type of guy who's got a mastermind killing his sister and then come up with some kind of crazy defense? You were trying to tell him, you would treat him with respect and ask him if you did the same to you. Correct. What was his response? I believe it was, uh, I don't deserve respect and just killed my sister. Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of serialistly.

Starting point is 00:01:28 Hey everybody, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialessly. I am your host, Annie Elise, and I am, why am I holding this like this? And I am here to break down another true crime case for you today. Now, let me just start with this. If you are brand new to this podcast, you've never listened to us before. You have no idea what it is. Let me break it down for you. So my name's Annie. And I like to talk about these cases with you in kind of like a conversational, friendly kind of way, almost like I'm sitting down with my sister Amy and telling her about a case I just heard about or, you know, having cocktails with friends and we're like talking about all of the latest breaking details in a case that we've all been following, just more conversational, less clinical to where it feels like we're friends and calling out the red flags,

Starting point is 00:02:20 the shadiness, the crazy crap that goes on and just bringing it down, you know, regularly, if that makes sense. So if that's the kind of thing that you're into and you want to hear my take on it and that kind of delivery, stick around. And if you enjoy this episode, make sure you follow the podcast so that you don't miss future cases. Now, the case that we are talking about today, it's pretty interesting because first and foremost, I saw it come across my desk a few months ago because the trial just wrapped. And the more that I started diving into it and researching it, the more I was like, this is, I hate to use this word because I feel like it's so overused, but truly diabolical. Like, we can pretty much all agree that most of us, I hope most of us at

Starting point is 00:03:05 least, will go our entire lives without killing somebody else, right? I think that's fair to say, not only just intentionally, but accidentally as well. But we also know that there are cold-blooded people out there who do murder people on purpose. Then they lie about it and they say that it's an accident. And it's hard to tell sometimes which is which, what is true, what's not. I mean, Colin Griffith is a great example that comes to mind. He was found not guilty of killing his mother and had cited self-defense, but then it came out that a year and a half earlier, his father had also died in what he called self-defense, but he said it was an accident, the jury believed him, he was acquitted.

Starting point is 00:03:43 What I personally think on that case, you can go listen to my episode on it, and I break it all down. But my point in all of that is that a lot of the times people will lie, and say that it was an accident when really it wasn't, and it's hard to decipher what's true and what's not. And that's kind of the question at the heart of today's episode, too, because it involves a person who died, and she was allegedly killed by the person who loved her the absolute most. Yet, he claimed it was not a murder. I did not do this. It was just this horrible, horrible, unpreventable mistake. Just not even an accident, a mistake. It involves two

Starting point is 00:04:21 twins and also involves a defense that we have never heard before. Or, I shouldn't say never have heard before, but rarely here. And it is murder during sleepwalking. Like I said, it is also a very recent case. This trial just ended earlier this year in 2025. So there has been a lot of attention on this. And I'm going to break it all down for you. And I want you to tell me, was this an un-preventable mistake? Or was this cold-blooded murder? What happened to the dream? And then I like, you know, watch him? Is he the type of guy who's going to mastermind killing his sister and then come up with some kind of crazy defense? I would think that there's not just no evidence of that, but that the

Starting point is 00:05:07 prosecution has, has enough evidence to say that that's not happening. I don't know where the accusations come from. Family is everything. Whether it is your blood family or your chosen family, I mean, it's the people that you can count on the most for your highs, your lows, for everything in between. Family means everything, plain and simple. And that's especially true for the Elliott family, because together Michael and Kathy Elliott had built what seemed like the perfect family in Katie, Texas. And that's a city just a little west of Houston. And it's very well known for being family friendly, this like nice suburban feel to it. And they had it all. They really did. Now, Michael and Kathy had three children together. Elizabeth, Benjamin, who went by Ben for short,

Starting point is 00:05:52 and Megan. Elizabeth was the oldest by a few years, and Ben and Megan were twins. Now, all of the siblings were close. Don't get me wrong. But I think it goes without saying that twins tend to be even closer, especially when there's like three in the mix. They gravitate towards each other. So Ben and Megan were always just very close with one another. There's just kind of this unspoken bond between the two of them that, of course, comes with being twins. Now, they weren't identical. Of course, obviously different gender. She was a girl, he was a boy, but they did still look very similar to one another.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Now, Megan had Auburn colored hair, a mix of brown and red, and you could really see all of the different colors and highlights whenever she was in the sun, while Ben's hair was more of like a dirty blonde. However, when the lighting was right, you could still see a little tint of a little tint of red peeking through. They both wore glasses and pretty much had the exact same smile, too. And not only did they look similar, but they acted really similar as well. I mean, they were both pretty shy and quiet, I will say that. But out of the two of them, Ben was the one who was a little bit more outgoing. He was funny. He could be sarcastic. He was kind of big on finding ways to make other people

Starting point is 00:07:01 laugh, all while Megan was a bit more reserved and kept to herself. She preferred to not be the center of attention, to not really have people looking at her or focused on her. She was also very into art. I mean, she loved drawing, animation. She was always reading. And whenever she wasn't reading or drawing, she was writing, specifically poetry. Now, it may not be that much of a surprise, but because Ben was a little bit more social and outgoing compared to Megan, he kind of saw himself as Megan's protector. Of course, they were twins. They were the same age, right? But he sort of saw himself as like he was the older brother. He was the protector over Megan. He was always there for her. He would always take her side if she ever had any issues or problems, you know, with a friend or a

Starting point is 00:07:42 classmate. And the two of them almost never argued or fought, except on the very rare occasion when they would be like playing video games with each other and would kind of like, you know, spat back and forth or pick back and forth at each other, just like normal gaming or sibling rivalry. But other than that, I mean, they were just bonded together. And aside from Ben just feeling like, he was a little more outspoken and social that he needed to be Megan's protector. He also felt like he wanted to assume this role because when Megan was fairly young, she was diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum. So that combined with the fact that she was already so quiet and so reserved and shy and

Starting point is 00:08:20 just kind of, you know, always into reading, it unfairly put a target on Megan. It made her an easy target for bullies and she got picked on a lot, which we all know how mean kids can be, right? But through it all, Ben was by her side. He had her back no matter what. One time, Ben and Megan had even been on the bus riding home from school one day, and a few kids started picking on Megan. But Ben, he just jumped out of the seat and started yelling at these bullies, just setting them straight, saying, leave my sister alone, back off, and just like, fully protecting his sister. And it kind of warms my heart, but he was so passionate about protecting his sister that as he was yelling at them, he even started crying. He just, it was so

Starting point is 00:09:01 emotional for him. And that was just one of the many stories of Ben taking care of Megan and having her under his wing, making sure that nobody else would ever hurt her feelings or mess with her. So that's where things stood on the night of September 28th, 2021. Megan and Ben were both 17 years old now, both in high school, and it was your typical Tuesday night. So the family ate dinner, they took turns hopping in the shower, everybody started settling in for bed, just getting ready for, you know, the grind of the next morning on Wednesday. And Ben and Megan each had their own room, even though they were close and twins, they didn't share a room. They had separate space, which is obviously very important for being 17 years old. So Megan was on her own

Starting point is 00:09:40 when she put on her pajamas, got under the covers, and fell asleep. There were no problems. She just went to bed and expected to get up the next morning and head off to school. However, a few hours later, at 4.41 a.m. on what now was September 29th, 2021, a call went through to 911. Okay, tell me, okay, tell me exactly what happened. I saw it was a dream and I took my way and I stabbed and everything was a bedroom. Okay, we're getting help to you, okay? Okay, are you with her now? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:21 How old is she? Okay, is she awake? Okay, I need him. Okay, I need you to look at her right, I need you to look at her right now. Is she awake? Yes. Okay. When does this happen?

Starting point is 00:10:37 I'm just more. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is there any serious bleeding? Yes.

Starting point is 00:10:49 I said, you're there. Okay. Listen, the paramedics are on the way. Stand in the line and I'll say exactly what to do that, okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay, is it good night still in her neck or no? No, you can't realize, no.

Starting point is 00:11:06 She's completely with a response to her. Okay, so she's not awake now. No. Are you hearing great one? Yes. Okay, it's very spoken right now. Now I know that that audio is a little bit difficult to hear, especially if you're not watching the video version of this.

Starting point is 00:11:27 So if you had a hard time making out the way. words, I just want to describe it for you. It was Ben, and he was calling 911 to say that he stabbed his sister, Megan, multiple times in the neck. He actually said, quote, I thought that it was a dream. I stabbed her. But then, it wasn't. So the ambulances rushed right over, and when they got there, they found Ben still on top of Megan. He was trying to give her CPR. He was trying to do chest compressions on her as well. And he would not get off of her so that they literally had to drag him off of her body. But even though the professionals were now there and they were trying to save Megan, it was too late. She couldn't be saved. She was gone. Now given that Ben had admitted

Starting point is 00:12:10 to stabbing Megan on the 911 call, the police didn't really need to do any sort of investigation, right? I mean, right away, they just let him off in handcuffs. He was their guy. And given his behavior in the body cam footage, I think it's safe to say that maybe he was in a state of shock of some sort, or maybe at the very least, he was just very, very confused. Take a listen. What happens to? It's a dream, and then I like, you know what? Yeah, I do.

Starting point is 00:12:41 I do. Do you want to walk in here real quick? Come on, come on. This way. Right here. I don't know. Oh, what did she want? It was just pretty, and then it wasn't.

Starting point is 00:12:59 What's your name? I'm sorry? Benjard, I'm Debbie Parker. You're going to be in my character. I'm going to be in my character today right now. So things play out, all right? I'll treat you with respect. You can stand to me, fair enough.

Starting point is 00:13:15 Now, you might be wondering, okay, well, where were Megan and Ben's parents during all of this? I mean, how do you sleep through one of your children stabbing your other child to death, right? Well, as it turns out, Michael had gone to bed pretty late. He had been up watching YouTube until around 3 a.m. And then finally, he had fallen asleep. But the next thing he knew, there were voices, people inside his house talking loudly enough to wake him up. So he put on his robe, he followed the sounds of the voices down the hallway, and he noticed that there were lights on in Megan's bedroom. But when he went to Megan's doorway to ask why she was still awake and what all of the commotion was about, that's when he saw Ben on top of Megan, and he was giving her those chest compressions. He also saw Ben's phone near him and heard somebody telling him what to do, almost like instructing him on how to do these compressions. So right away, he of course realized that his daughter Megan was having some type of emergency and that Ben was on the phone with 911. I mean, that's where the voice was coming from.

Starting point is 00:14:10 But he couldn't really see Megan. I mean, Ben, again, was just right there on top of her. So he did not realize that not only was she covered in blood, but she was also covered in stab wounds. He figured that this was some kind of medical problem. I mean, Megan didn't have any health conditions. that he was aware of, but it makes sense that his mind went there. He didn't see blood. He didn't see anything else. Like, did she stop breathing? Did she start gasping for air? And her brother's trying to

Starting point is 00:14:33 help her, like trying to make sense of everything. But as he was trying to rack his brain, everything started to come into focus. Because right away, Ben explained to him that he had stabbed Megan. Which is pretty interesting, right? Because he wasn't trying to hide anything. He wasn't trying to pretend that this was anything other than a stabbing. And that was crystal clear to Michael. But it was less clear to his wife Kathy. She had a much harder time processing what was going on because she didn't see much of anything. I mean, like Michael, she was asleep at the time of the attack. And she had actually been asleep for a while because she had gone to bed much earlier than he had. She didn't even wake up until she heard Michael yelling. Once she did, she jumped out of bed,

Starting point is 00:15:13 she ran towards the noise, towards the sound, and at that exact time is when she saw multiple policemen just coming into the house and running toward Megan's room. And they were heading straight there like, they knew exactly where to go. They weren't wandering around aimlessly. They weren't trying to figure out what room it was in. They knew exactly what they were doing. So, of course, Kathy's still unclear and, like, probably half asleep still. She starts yelling at the police.

Starting point is 00:15:36 Like, what's going on? Why are you there? Why are you in my house? But nobody answered her. They were more focused on getting to her daughter Megan and getting been arrested than they were in, you know, stopping and telling her the whole story of what's been going on. But eventually, she made her way over to her husband, Michael. And that's when he filled her in on all of the details that he had been able to figure out.

Starting point is 00:15:56 It just didn't feel real to Kathy. I mean, she heard the words that he was saying. She understood what these words meant, but she just could not believe them. She figured, no, there has to be some kind of mistake here. So she began begging the police to let her inside the bedroom. Apparently, she had been trained in first aid, and she thought that she could get in there and still help Megan possibly. But the police would not let her in.

Starting point is 00:16:18 They didn't really do much of anything to help Kathy or Michael. Instead, their full focus was now on Ben, and get this, just to, like, level-set the timeline of it all. By the time Kathy was awake and trying to, like, process everything, Ben was already long gone at the station and being interrogated. And while they're talking to him and interrogating him, he said that the night had begun pretty normally, like what we had said before. He went to bed, but he didn't fall asleep right away, so he played on his phone for a little while. He was scrolling Reddit until he got tired enough to actually fall asleep. But then he said that he had a nightmare about grabbing a knife, going into his sister's room, and stabbing her in the neck. But suddenly, during that nightmare, he woke up and he realized he wasn't dreaming.

Starting point is 00:17:03 It wasn't just a nightmare. It was reality. He was actually stabbing Megan. And in fact, the moment that he woke up, he was in the middle of sort of like jabbing the knife downward in his twin sister. So in other words, according to him, he had been sleepwalking during this entire attack. This episode is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Now, let's be honest, most holiday gifts, they end up like in the back of a drawer or in the back of your closet. Maybe it's gift cards, maybe it's socks.

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Starting point is 00:19:07 Today's episode is also sponsored by skims. Now, I want to talk with you about pajamas for a second. I've talked to you about my skims like intimate items, which I, there are like so, so comfy and I could talk about those all day. But let's talk about pajamas, because I am officially in my cozy season era, and I have been wearing my new skim's sleep set all around the house nonstop. When I put Christmas up, literally the day after Halloween, because that's just how I roll, when I'm getting up and just being cozy in the mornings on the weekends. I love that it, like, feels festive. I love that I can be, you know, matching with my sister. And they're just so, so,

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Starting point is 00:20:23 for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com. That's S-K-I-M-S dot com. Ben said that when he finally woke up and came out of this nightmare, that he wasn't able to stop himself in time before he had stabbed Megan one last time. But then he stopped the attack, feeling absolutely horrified, which honestly, I'm just going to say it like it is, it probably didn't matter that he wasn't able to stop himself because that wasn't the only stab wound that Ben had given her. Megan had been stabbed multiple times at that point. Now, in a very graphic and gruesome detail, she did let out what Ben described as a, quote, half scream. Now, at this point, the knife that he had just stabbed her with was still stuck in her neck, just like inside the wound, just sitting there. When Ben then went to pull it out, of course, it made the wound much, much worse because the knife had been blocking blood from coming out of the injury. So when he ripped it out, she just started pouring out blood like crazy. Which hopefully this is never information that you need

Starting point is 00:21:32 to use, but just in case it is, keep in mind, if you ever see somebody who has been stabbed or impaled or anything like that and has a weapon still inside of them, do not remove it. Seriously, it usually does more harm than good. Leave it in there. It'll hold the blood in there. It'll maybe even start clotting it, like do not remove it. Unfortunately, though, for Ben, he was just a 17-year-old kid, right? He didn't know that. He panicked, so he yanked this knife out of his twin sister. Then he finally turned the lights on so that he could get a good look at what was going on and what he had just done.

Starting point is 00:22:03 And once he was able to see just how much his sister Megan was bleeding, he went and he grabbed one of her pillows and he tried to use it and apply pressure on top of her wounds, trying to stop the bleeding. But once it was clear that the pillows weren't helping, he ran back to his room, he grabbed his phone and he called 911. And as we also already know, he also began applying chest compressions around that time too. Now, like I said earlier, by the time the first responders arrived, Megan had unfortunately already passed away. And it's hard to really know at what point she did die, but maybe her last breaths were, you know, that half scream that Ben had described hearing.

Starting point is 00:22:41 Maybe that was more of a gasp for air or the last moment. I mean, maybe it was after the knife was pulled out of her neck, we don't really know. But Kathy, the mother later would mention that a key word she remembered hearing the first responders say among each other was carotid. And my best guess with that is that they were probably saying that one of the stab wounds had hit Megan's carotid artery. And that is one of the main arteries that supplies blood to your body. So if that was the case, Megan very easily could have bled out and died within seconds. That is how quickly it can happen. So maybe when Ben was off grabbing the pillow and calling 911, he was just too shocked to realize that his sister had already died. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:23:23 We'll probably never fully be able to know the exact moment when she died, but it was a chaotic scene. And I just hope for Megan's sake that it was very quick and that she hadn't even realized that it was her brother, her twin brother at that Ben who was the one stabbing her. Because I can't imagine the fear in that moment, not that it would be any less fearful if it was a stranger, but just that level of like closeness and, betrayal, you know? So all to say, Ben freely admitted he had stabbed his sister Megan to death. However, all through his interrogation, he was also very clear about one thing. This whole thing, it was an accident. He had been dreaming. He was sleepwalking. And at one point, when it seemed like the detectives just were not believing him at all, he even asked one of them, have you ever had a realistic nightmare where everything just felt so real? I definitely know I have. I have a

Starting point is 00:24:12 reoccurring one all the time that all my teeth in my mouth are falling. out and I have to like literally like take my hands and like scoop them out of my mouth, all the shavings. I don't know what that means. If you are like a dream psychic person, let me know, but that is one that I have at least a handful of times a year. So I know that feeling of when something feels so real. But when I wake up usually, my teeth are all in my mouth. Not usually they always are. And so I've never woken up where it's like my nightmare is a reality. And let's talk about how believable the excuse of sleepwalking is given all of the evidence. because the first detail that's worth mentioning is that Ben did not stab Megan with an ordinary kitchen knife

Starting point is 00:24:51 or anything that would have been really easy or convenient for him to just grab while he was sleepwalking. Because based on my research, it looks to me like the knife actually belonged to his father, Michael. And one of my sources called it an Air Force Survival Knife. So that's the sort of thing that you might bring with you hiking or maybe even backpacking. I mean, it's supposed to keep you safe in case there's like a wilderness emergency sort of situation. It's very heavy duty, very sharp. Now, importantly, Ben had also been kind of fascinated with this particular knife before the murder. I don't know a lot of the details about what exactly that means in terms of how he talked about it or how he behaved, but there was apparently

Starting point is 00:25:30 some sort of fascination. And his father, Michael, gave different statements at different times where he described Ben as his word, not mine, enamored with this knife. He also said that he, quote, had a fixation on it. Now that is a pretty big detail to me for a lot of different reasons, because not only did Ben not go into the kitchen and grab any ordinary kitchen knife that was just there, he didn't grab any other sort of weapons that were just lying around the house. He used a specific knife, one that his father said he had a fixation on, that he was enamored with. And I'll get into more of this in a minute, but something else that strikes me with that. And I'm not trying to get super perverted or gross. But they're

Starting point is 00:26:12 have been many cases that we have covered right here on this podcast that involve stabbings and sometimes kind of like a pyromaniac okay sometimes perpetrators become so fixated with an object or a weapon or something that it stimulates them either emotionally mentally sexually physically whatever it's like a stimulant to them and i can't remember the exact way to describe it like what the legal or medical terminology is. But with knives specifically, it's almost as though, and I'm not saying this is the case for Ben, we're going to continue on with this, but for some people, it's almost as though the knife signifies their penis, if that makes sense. And that's why sometimes you see mutilation and things like that. It's almost like, again, I wish I knew the medical terminology, and maybe I should have an

Starting point is 00:27:02 expert on to say this, but it's almost like there's a satisfaction with it and this like urge. I don't know. Well, I'll stop talking and get into more of it, but just to say, that's kind of where my mind went when his dad gave the statements of he's enamored with it. He has a fixation on it. That could easily mean he just likes hunting or he likes whatever. But like there's something about it that kind of irks me a little bit. But you tell me as we continue. Now, because the Elliott family lived in Texas, they of course liked outdoorsy sports. I mean, their garage was full of gear too. They had practice swords, BB guns, a rapier, which I never even knew what that was. And I, quite personally hate the name, but it's apparently like this really long, skinny sword that was used back in the 16th and 17th centuries. But Michael the dad was also an avid hunter. So I would imagine that they probably also had guns in the house as well, but none of those weapons were used. It was this particular knife. So was it a coincidence that this knife that was Ben's favorite knife was the one that was used to kill Megan as well? Well, it really depends on how you feel about his sleepwalking story as we continue. Now there's a part of me that also wonders where this knife was stored. Like, did Ben keep it

Starting point is 00:28:13 in his room? Was it in Michael and Kathy's room? I mean, it was Michael's knife, after all, or did they maybe keep it somewhere else in the house, like a more public place? I don't know. And I don't know if the answer to that question really even makes all that much of a difference, but I would be interested to know if he had any sort of access to it, like easy access to it, or if he would have to go out of his way to find it that night. And if so, would searching through the house be something that you can even do while you're sleepwalking. I'm not sure. I've only slept to walk once in my life, and it was after a lot of alcohol. Now, for what it's worth, his parents, Michael and Kathy did believe Ben right away. Right after his arrest, they even released a statement where they

Starting point is 00:28:52 said, we're still gathering all of the facts and the details of this tragedy. There is no question that Benjamin loved his sister very much. They were extremely close and the best of friends, so the family is asking for privacy as they process this heartbreaking event. Also, his more distant relatives who didn't really know him very well at all, also gave public statements supporting him. And to be clear, some of them were still saying that there should be consequences for Ben. However, they wanted the police and the authorities to treat the situation as an accidental homicide, not like it was a premeditated murder. And in fairness, the police also seriously considered this possibility. They even looked into Ben's medical history to see if he had a history of sleepwalking

Starting point is 00:29:33 or any other issues with his sleep where maybe that could be a symptom. The thing was, there was nothing. At least, there was nothing that was directly related to sleepwalking. He had never talked to a doctor about sleepwalking. There was nothing in his medical records that suggested that it was anything that he had ever dealt with in the past. It just seemed like it was this new onset or this new, you know, I don't know, symptom of stress or anxiety or whatever you would call it. However, his family was pushing back on that finding. They said, you know, yeah, sure, he never had sought professional help from a doctor. but that was because until the stabbing incident,

Starting point is 00:30:10 none of them had realized how serious the problem was. But yeah, he did have a history of sleepwalking. And according to Ben, his sister Megan had actually caught him wandering around in the middle of the night before. That had happened about a year before this stabbing incident. So sleepwalking was something that he had been dealing with for at least over 12 months at this point. That is, of course, if you believe him. Because as we know, he of course also did have a motive to make it sound like he had a history of sleepwalking. And it's not like his twin sister Megan is around to verify what he said.

Starting point is 00:30:41 Except then, Ben and Megan's older sister, Elizabeth, also came forward with another story about Ben's sleepwalking. Now, this one happened way, way earlier. It happened many years ago when Ben and Megan were around 10 or 11 years old, so call it six or seven years earlier. And Elizabeth had claimed that she and Megan, who had been sharing a room, sleeping in bunk beds, were asleep one night while Ben was in his own room. But then, during the night, Megan woke her up.

Starting point is 00:31:07 up, and according to Elizabeth, Megan looked freaked out. And it's because Ben was standing in their doorway, just sort of hovering there. Now, since it was the middle of the night and all of the lights were off, all they could really see was his silhouette, so they were freaked out. I mean, what would you think if you woke up in the middle of the night and you see, like, a person standing in your doorway? They also could only barely make out that his eyes were open and that he looked awake. However, he didn't talk to them. He also wasn't making any facial expressions. I mean, nothing. He was just staring straight forward. Which I cannot imagine. how creepy it would be to wake up and see your brother or anyone just standing there and like staring at you acting like a zombie, you know, no facial expression, no movement, nothing.

Starting point is 00:31:46 And for a 10 or an 11-year-old, that was probably a terrifying experience. For sure, the sort of thing that you would remember. And Elizabeth said, since she was the older one, you know, the big sister in all of this, she's the one who got out of bed and went to go see what Ben was doing. She said that she put her hand on his shoulder, gave it a good shake, you know, trying to wake him up. but he didn't react at all. So that's when Elizabeth decided that he probably was sleepwalking. So she apparently just calmly and very nicely told him, you know, it's bedtime, you need to go back to your room, you need to go to sleep,

Starting point is 00:32:18 and Ben listened to her. He just sort of like turned, walked back out of the room, and walked into his room. But he still wasn't saying anything or really reacting to anything. And it was almost like he went through this whole process, like going to the girls' room, turning around, going back to his own room, without ever waking up or even realizing what he was doing. So Elizabeth said when she woke up the next morning, she told her family about what had happened,

Starting point is 00:32:43 and nobody was really concerned. They all just kind of laughed about it. Like, oh my gosh, that's so crazy. Like, how funny. Oh, my, like, please don't ever do that again. You're going to freak me out. I mean, they all just saw it as a funny situation, not necessarily a dangerous situation

Starting point is 00:32:57 or a potentially dangerous situation. Certainly not something that they ever thought that Ben needed to see a doctor over. Meanwhile, Ben, he didn't remember any of it. And to his family, that just made it even more funny. They were like, you don't even remember it? Oh my gosh, you're so crazy. Like, nobody was really concerned, though. Now, the police also tracked down one of Ben's friends, Agnod Singh. And he said that when he first heard about Megan's death and the fact that Ben had allegedly been sleepwalking when he stabbed her,

Starting point is 00:33:25 his first reaction had just been complete shock. He could not believe it. But then, when he thought over it a little bit more and sort of started processing everything, the story sort of clicked into place with some other things that he had been thinking about. Because it turns out that Anod had also seen Ben sleepwalking. Today's episode is sponsored by Helix. Now, okay, if you're someone who struggles with sleep, whether it's night sweats, back pain, or just tossing and turning, trying to get comfortable, I want you to listen very, very carefully. I've talked to. I've talked to. about this before, but I used to wake up constantly throughout the night. And it wasn't until I

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Starting point is 00:36:58 any simply safe home security system. That's simply safe.com slash Annie. There's no safe like simply safe. About four years earlier, in April of 2016, Anod and his sister were having a sleepover at Ben and Megan's house. And this was a regular thing. Anod was friends with Ben, his sister was close with Megan, so it was normal for both of them to go over there and spend the night. Megan and the sister would, you know, sleep on a mattress on the living room floor. Ben would sleep on the couch, Anod would sleep in one of the bedrooms, but they were all friends. They all got along. And I don't know why the sleeping arrangements were that way.

Starting point is 00:37:39 I don't know why Ben would sleep on the couch with the girls, and then his friend and the guest would be all alone in a separate bedroom, but who knows? I don't know why the setup was made that way. But anyway, during that particular sleepover, Anod woke up and he wandered into the living room to see if anybody was awake or had gotten out of bed yet. and he saw that Ben was still laying down, but his eyes were open. In fact, he seemed to be staring right back at Anad when he walked into the room. But here's where Anad said it got a little bit weird. Ben was looking at him, but it was like he didn't see him, if that makes sense. He was just watching him with a totally complete blank stare. And Ben also had a donut in his hand, of all things, and he was eating it, like right there just in the dark. It was almost like he was a zombie,

Starting point is 00:38:23 just going through the motions, not really reacting to anything that was going on around him. Now, yes, there was a box of donuts sitting out in the kitchen, so Anod figured, okay, Ben got up off the couch, he went and grabbed a donut, he then climbed back onto the couch, he was going to eat it while he was lying down. Nothing nefarious, nothing concerning. But in Anod's mind, Ben had to be awake, obviously, right? He had to get up and go walk over to the kitchen and get a donut. It didn't even occur to him that Ben could have been sleepwalking that entire time. He figured Ben was just being kind of weird, so he loudly just kind of said, like, good morning, good morning, Ben. And when he said that, it was almost like within an instant,

Starting point is 00:38:58 Ben snapped out of this trance. He woke up, and he looked all around the room like he was seeing it for the very first time. He was clearly confused. So that's when Ben apparently said something along the lines of, this is so weird. I was dreaming of eating a donut, I woke up, and there really was a donut in my hand. Apparently, Ben didn't remember anything about actually going into the kitchen to get this donut. He also didn't remember eating it. All he remembered was a dream that felt very real to him. And once again, when the rest of his family heard about what had happened, they basically just laughed it off. It all sounded so silly to them like, oh, Ben's sleep walking again. This time he's eating donuts. Like, you know, how weird, how funny. And I don't know why they all laughed it off

Starting point is 00:39:41 or why they didn't jump to thinking it was something more serious. Maybe it was because apparently everyone in the family had a history of different kinds of sleeping difficulties and different weird sleep patterns. I mean, for example, the father Michael was apparently a very heavy sleeper. He was known at home as the dad who could sleep through literally anything, so much so that he would not be useful in any kind of fire or any other kind of late night emergency. He also apparently had a history of sleep talking, which sure is not the same as somebody's sleepwalking, but it's still sort of a weird sleep thing that is a bit more uncommon, right? Then, According to Ben's great aunt, there were also relatives with a history of sleepwalking and parasomnia.

Starting point is 00:40:22 Now, parasomnia is sort of an umbrella term for all kinds of different sleeping problems, links together insomnia, night tears, sleepwalking, and just about everything else, if I'm going to be honest. So all to say, Ben couldn't prove that he had a history of sleepwalking with his medical records, but he did have witness after witness coming forward to say that they had seen him in the past acting weird in the middle of the night, apparently while he had been sleeping. So whether or not he had a medical history of it, that could be arguable. He did have a medical history of sleep apnea, which in and of itself is a type of sleeping disorder. And apparently there have even been studies that show that there can be a correlation between sleep apnea and increased sleepwalking.

Starting point is 00:41:03 So sure, his parents, yeah, hadn't taken him to the doctor saying, you know, my son is sleepwalking, fix him, fix the issue. But like I said, you could also argue that he did have a history of it based on these witness accounts. So because of that, maybe it's not very surprising that his family stood by him and argued that he shouldn't be charged with murdering Megan. But I also think it's not very surprising that some people were just not on board with the sleepwalking story. A lot of people could not believe what the family was saying. They didn't trust them in general, as a matter of fact. They felt like they were simply in denial that one kid had killed the other and now they were trying to protect the surviving one. And I think the family rubbed a lot of people the wrong way with some of the choices that they made not long after.

Starting point is 00:41:43 Megan's death as well. Because right away after Megan's death, the family hired a lawyer almost immediately, or at least it looked that way from the outside. That very morning, literally a few hours after Megan's body was taken away, and while Ben went off to the police station to give his statement, the parents Kathy and Michael began talking with a lawyer named Dale Carroll. And you'll remember earlier how I talked about Kathy's experience on the night of the murder, how it was confusing, she was disoriented, how she didn't know what was going on, and that by the time she came out of her room, the police had already taken Ben away and Megan was dead. Well, Michael told her that Megan had been stabbed to death and that Ben was with the police. So that was all that Kathy needed to hear.

Starting point is 00:42:25 She didn't need to understand the specifics yet. She didn't know the details. Clearly, this was a very serious legal situation, and she knew that she was going to need help. So she picked up the phone, called her family friend, Dale, who happened to also be a lawyer. which I'll be honest, I can't fault her for that, not at all. I think you want to get ahead of it in a legal aspect, right? You want to make sure that your son and your family is protected until you figure out what happened. And it's also not like Kathy was necessarily even thinking that, thinking, you know, I better hire someone because we're all going to be in legal trouble here. She was just reaching out to a friend who could give her advice in this type of situation because he was a lawyer. So Dale rushed right over to the house and he arrived at around 6 or 6.30 a.m. It had now almost been two hours since that 9,000. but Kathy still didn't know the full story, and she had a really difficult time explaining what was going on. She was confused. She wanted answers, and she was now asking for help from her friend. And while my opinion is that she did the right thing, I mean, you definitely should protect yourself and your family in these types of situations. A lot of people didn't really

Starting point is 00:43:28 like the way that this was shaking out, and a lot of people were pretty unreasonable. They were very critical of Kathy and Michael, and they said that by them hiring the lawyer, made them look guilty, I mean, to bring a lawyer in so soon, so early in the process. And apparently, a rumor also went around saying that Kathy and Michael were not cooperating with the police investigation. And that ended up being something that the prosecution later honed in on. People claimed that they apparently wouldn't even let the police search their home without a warrant. Which again, if that was true, that was their legal right. There's a reason that warrant laws exist. And it's specifically because people have the right to not go along with a search without one.

Starting point is 00:44:07 And this isn't me judging them or saying that they should have done something different or shouldn't have done it this way. I'm just bringing up what was apparently a huge deal to a lot of people, and it was being talked about all over the internet. But the thing was about this rumor is that Kathy claimed that none of it was true. Instead, she said that after Dale arrived, he talked with the police for a little bit, and after talking with them, the officer said that Kathy and Michael didn't have to stick around anymore. They had already been around waiting awkwardly with no answers for hours by that point. so apparently they said, you know, they don't need to stick around. And since they had just been through something just so horribly traumatic and all around devastating, they decided to get out of the house. Plus, it's worth mentioning that they may have known that Megan didn't survive it at that point, so they probably needed to figure out what the next steps were. So they gave their house keys over to their friend Dale, and he gave them to the police so that they could just go in and out whenever they needed to. But then somehow, along the way, the situation just got warped into this like gossip mill of Michael and and Kathy being uncooperative. And it really doesn't make much sense for them to be accused of not

Starting point is 00:45:11 being cooperative when they literally handed over the keys to their house, right? I mean, that doesn't really compute. I mean, I guess technically they didn't hand them over the police. Dale did. But still, I mean, he was presenting himself as their lawyer, so kind of qualifies as being the same thing. It's like them by proxy in a way, right? And not to get too ahead of myself, but Michael later testified that he didn't even know that the investigators had ever even gotten a search warrant. So to say that they weren't cooperating and had refused a search of the house, it just didn't really make a whole lot of sense, at least to me. It's also worth mentioning that Ben wasn't hiding anything. He was telling the investigators what had happened or his recollection of what had happened.

Starting point is 00:45:48 He also had just willingly given the investigators his phone and gave them consent to go through it, check whatever they needed to do. No warrant needed, no secrecy, nothing, just handed it right over to them. So even though the complaint was primarily about Michael and Kathy, to me it just kind of seems like, all of this was another example of the Elliott family being really cooperative as a whole. You know, being cooperative with the investigation, with the detectives, with all of it. And in fact, Kathy ended up saying the opposite was true, saying that it was the police who were uncooperative, saying they kept her and Michael out of the loop, refusing to explain what was going on with the investigation. And not only that, but she says they did this for years.

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Starting point is 00:47:27 more comfort, even improved confidence in their overall health and intimacy. So take proactive care of your health and head to ohpositive.com slash a or enter AE at checkout for 25% off your first purchase. That's O-P-O-S-I-V-com slash AE for 25% off. Michael and Kathy were in a very tricky situation. I mean, yes, they were the parents of the victim who was still a minor. And in normal cases, you would expect the investigators to keep them updated, right? But they were also, the parents of the alleged perpetrator. So as frustrating as it was for them, I do also understand

Starting point is 00:48:12 why they weren't getting all of the information from behind the scenes. The investigation comes first. Justice for Megan comes first. And if this wasn't an accident, if this was premeditated murder, they certainly weren't going to, you know, play their cards a little bit early and let the parents know what was going on. The detectives probably also knew that this was eventually going to go to trial. so they didn't want to give Ben and his team any sort of warnings that could jeopardize the entire case. So eventually, her mother, Kathy, felt like the only way to have any control over the situation or to even know what was going on was to bring a lawyer into the mix. So that's when Dale took on more of an official role in this case.

Starting point is 00:48:51 Which you did hear me right before. This dragged on for literal years. And eventually, Ben did end up being charged with murder. And of course, since he still maintained that it was all an accident and that this wasn't premeditated, he pleaded not guilty. However, there was a lot of evidence against him. I mean, starting with the fact that he had literally confessed, both on the phone with 911, and to the responding officers, he told both of them very clear, very direct that he was the one who stabbed Megan. And there was also the fact that Megan's blood was all over his hands and body. His prints were all over the knife. There were no signs of

Starting point is 00:49:26 forced entry in the home that would indicate that anybody had broken in and killed Megan while her family was all asleep peacefully that night? I mean, what other argument could you have? Except, of course, that this was accidental. And it's not like there were ever multiple persons of interest in this case, which I'm honestly not sure what other evidence could have been discovered, even if there were, that wasn't pretty much evident from the moment that Ben called 911, but it seemed like an open-and-shut case, the biggest question being accidental or premeditated. But then there was the fact that the detectives never once believed that this was an accident. The way they saw it, for whatever reason, Ben had woken up that night, grabbed his favorite knife, the one he was fixated on, and he brutally

Starting point is 00:50:10 murdered his twin sister. The only difference in their eyes between Ben's case and other cases was that he never tried to cover up or hide what had truly happened. So all that to say that when taking him to court, they treated him as any other typical stabbing case. Only this time, they would need to study up on sleepwalking in preparation for the defense's rebuttals that were, of course, sure to come. So Ben's trial began early this year in 2025, and the prosecutor's argument was that the murder was in fact premeditated. Ben was not sleepwalking. He was awake. He was conscious. He knew exactly what he was doing the entire time that he stabbed Megan to death. The only problem was that the prosecution could not think of a motive. I mean, everyone who knew Ben and Megan knew that they

Starting point is 00:50:53 were super close. They knew that they loved each other. He had never given any sign of wanting to hurt her or no less kill her. I mean, certainly not. The best motive that they could come up with was that even though the two of them had been close their entire lives, one day maybe Ben just snapped. He flew into a rage out of nowhere and he killed her. He was fixated on that knife. He wanted to see what it felt like. He was so, you know, enamored with it. And I know that's a pretty big leap to make. I mean, they didn't have any evidence to support that idea. But that was also true for both sides, both the prosecution and the defense. Both of them were making a lot of assumptions, making arguments that they could not support. So it was definitely a case where the lawyers on both sides showed a lot of creativity

Starting point is 00:51:37 and were telling very interesting stories. But neither of them could really come up with any hard evidence to help their argument. I mean, after all, Ben freely admitted that he had killed Megan, so there was no question of whether he had done it or not. The real issue of the in this trial was whether he did it on purpose or not, and whether he was awake for the crime. The defense covered Ben's history of sleepwalking and also talked about his relationship with Megan, and witness after witness said that he would never intentionally hurt her. He was her protector. Kathy also mentioned that her husband Michael was very into hunting, and that somewhere along the way he brought Ben on one of his hunting trips, thinking that it was something that

Starting point is 00:52:15 they could bond over. However, she said Ben was not into it. He did not like hurting animals. So from there, then the reasoning, of course, became, okay, well, if he can't hurt a rabbit or a deer, he definitely probably would never take a human life on purpose, right? I mean, that was the mentality that they were going with with the defense. They also argued that Ben would not have called 911 and admitted to the stabbing if he was some cold-blooded killer and was trying to get away with it. The problem was with all of this is that none of it proved that the stabbing was an accident. Yeah, it showed that he was remorseful or maybe very confused what had happened, you know, maybe had just woken up after her death, but nothing showed concrete proof that it was an accident.

Starting point is 00:52:55 A sleep expert also testified that he had examined Ben. And he found that Ben tended to fall asleep very quickly and very easily, which went directly against some pretty big claims that we're about to get into. The sleep expert also said that Ben had a difficult time waking up and sometimes would have whole conversations with him while he was still asleep. So in his mind, based on his knowledge of sleep and sleepwalking, it seemed entirely possible that if Ben was obsessed with that particular knife in his waking life, that he could have had a dream about picking it up and stabbing somebody with it, and then stabbing Megan for real with it, all while still being completely dead asleep. And the prosecution for their part admitted that maybe Ben did have a history of

Starting point is 00:53:39 sleepwalking, but he had never attacked anyone in his sleep before. They said that it was too unlikely for him to go from zero to fatal stabbing with no steps in between. So that told them that this attack on Megan, it must have happened while he was awake. Now, of course, I was very curious about whether or not this was a solid argument, okay? So I dove into it a little bit more. And first of all, violence while sleepwalking is rare, but it's not impossible. According to the Cleveland clinic, the more violent behaviors occur only after the sleepwalking episode has been triggered and is underway, you know, during the sleepwalking episode while moving about the environment and the sleepwalking individual encounters somebody else, most likely a family member, and that the person

Starting point is 00:54:21 may approach or make physical contact with the sleepwalker, then triggering a violent reaction. Now, obviously, I'm no sleep expert, and the Cleveland Clinic isn't the end-all be-all of sleepwalking research. But it does seem to me like it does depend on the person, that if someone interacts with them or if there's some sort of specific trigger, that could definitely dictate the situation. But my only thing with this explanation is that if it's a triggering event that set somebody off, and if you're using that description, I would have expected the story to play out more like Ben was strangling his sister in her sleep or something like that, because it just doesn't make a ton of sense for him to go into her room already having a knife, have a triggering reaction,

Starting point is 00:55:03 and then attack her. Again, I'm no expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm just trying to walk through it and figure out, like, does this make sense? Now, this next detail is key, and it is what has a lot of people divided on this case, because the prosecution said he had to be awake at the time of Megan's death, because digital records said he was on the phone roughly 20 minutes before Megan was first stabbed. The prosecution presented these phone records and was pretty much like, look, there is no way that he could have been in a deep, sleepwalking state when she was stabbed. He was on his phone 20 minutes before he was awake. Phone he used to call 911 is his cell phone.

Starting point is 00:55:42 And you're about to learn some interesting thing about cell phones. Cell phone evidence is obtained when a digital download or re-imaging of the contents of your cell phone occurs. for example it reports data light when you unlock it it reports data light when you unlock it reports data like when your display turns on or off it reports data light when you lock it if you have the health app activated it records your steps and about how far you wake phone it also tells us what you search on the internet it also tells us us what watching and it certainly tells us if you're awake on your cell phone see what we do

Starting point is 00:56:46 know is that the defendant is on his cell phone watching YouTube videos and Searching and browsing Reddit. Drop the night. What we do know is at 4 o'clock, we start seeing him walk and unlock the device more often. What we do know is that at 406, he unclosed the device. What we do know is that at 408, He takes about eight steps for 18 feet.

Starting point is 00:57:35 And then at 417, the device is locked. You're going to want to write 417 now. At 417, the device is locked. And that device is not unlocked again until 441. But he calls not anymore. However, like the sleep expert testified, apparently Ben had a tendency to fall asleep very quickly. So, could he have managed to fall asleep and begin sleepwalking within a 20-minute window?

Starting point is 00:58:02 I don't know. Maybe. And remember how he said he tried to use a pillow to then, like, stop the bleeding from Megan's stab wounds? Well, the prosecution claimed that he actually held it over her mouth and it was to stop her from screaming. Again, they didn't really have any evidence to prove that this was the case, but this was their argument. And I would say that the most convincing argument that the prosecution brought forward had to do with the specific of sleepwalking versus Ben's confession and claims. As we know, Ben was adamant that he was dreaming. It felt like a dream, like he was having a nightmare, rather, not a dream. However, and this is something I learned throughout my research on this case, apparently when you're

Starting point is 00:58:42 sleepwalking, you cannot be dreaming. Dreaming happens during REM sleep, and sleepwalking happens in non-rem sleep. So there's no way that he could have been having a reality of a nightmare, come true. And that kind of also goes back to the many times I've woken up from a nightmare and I talked about it earlier where it's like you wake up thinking it's real, but obviously it's not real. You apparently can't dream while you're sleepwalking because you're not in REM. So this idea of Ben simply acting out his dreams and having a nightmare that he was stabbing his sister only to wake up and truly be stabbing his sister, it didn't make sense at all. And it didn't add up with what we know to be scientifically true and what was brought in as scientific evidence in this trial.

Starting point is 00:59:26 which I don't know about all of you, but if I was a juror and I heard that, it probably would have been a huge factor in my final decision. So there was a lot of speculation on both sides, lots of controversy, lots of rumors, lots of gossip, and a lot of disagreement about whether or not he was guilty. But for the jury's part, it took them no time at all to reach a verdict. We called number 1741-609 State of Texas versus Benjamin and David Elliott. we the jury find the defendant, Benjamin and David Elliott, guilty of murderers charged in the indictment, signed by the foreman of the jury, are credited by the foreman of the jury. Is that your verdict? Yes, they're obvious.

Starting point is 01:00:05 At the sentencing, Ben's legal team asked for leniency, and so did his family, which, remember, was also the family of the victim, his sister. Shockingly, though, the jury also asked the judge for leniency. And it's not every day that we hear that. And I don't think that that means that they were second-guessing their guilty verdict. I hear that. think that maybe it was some sort of other explanation where they wanted them to go easy on this guy because of his age, maybe because of mitigating circumstances. I don't really know, but the prosecution felt differently. They wanted 40 years in prison for Ben and nothing less. In the end, the judge ended up siding with Ben, his family, and the jury. When an assessing punishment, I look at many factors that help guide me. This is a wide range

Starting point is 01:00:49 of punishment. Five years, 99 years of life. I look at the criminal. my history of the defendant. I look at similar cases with fact patterns and what juries have decided and there's none. I mean, we could all agree on that. And I've looked. I look at what the jury has told me and defense, they did not agree with your defense. I'm sorry, they didn't. However, unsolicited, they told me to be lenient with Mr. Elliott. I will tell you that. And I've told you all that when I spoke with them. I don't know if they tell me. I look at cases I've tried as a prosecutor and defense attorney,

Starting point is 01:01:25 try to look at similarities to see what I think is just. Like a mitigation in this case, and there's mitigation. I mean, he hasn't, there's no criminal history. He seems to be portrayed as a nice person. I can't argue with that. I look at aggravated circumstances, the complaining witness. If she was young, he didn't deserve what happened. I look at how the defendant behaved on bond.

Starting point is 01:01:50 I sit there and I've told everyone before, I see what people do, not what they say. And I just watch them and just to see what they're going to do. And he's behave. We can't argue with that. I think about the victim. I have. I do. I will.

Starting point is 01:02:06 I have. I think about the victim's family, which is also his family. I think about the defendant's age. I think about rehabilitation and punishment. And I think about what I think is just and what I can live with. because at that bottom line is I have to be able to live with whatever sentence I give and I take that very seriously. Stand up, Mr. Elliott.

Starting point is 01:02:32 The jury finding you guilty of the offensive murder, your range of plaintiffins from five years to 99. I sentenced you to 15 years in prison. At this time, you will go with the Sheriff's Department where your sentence will be fulfilled in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice and you'll get the credit that you have received while out on bond, if you served any jail time, you'll receive that credit as well. Is there any legal reason why this court should not give you that punishment at this time? Any legal reason, Mr. Rucker? With that said, please go with the sheriff's department.

Starting point is 01:03:04 We fulfill their sentence in the Texas Department of criminal justice. 15 years in prison, meaning that he will be 36 years old by the time he gets out, only 36 years old, I should say. Maybe it will be sooner if he gets parole or gets, you know, out early on good. behavior, and even though a large chunk of his early adulthood will be spent in prison, he still will be able to have a seemingly normal life once he gets out. He'll be able to get a college degree if he wants to. He'll be able to see and write to his family. I mean, his life is very far from over. Arguably, your 30s are your best years, right? Now, given the circumstances of this case, I would say he got pretty lucky that he was not hit with life in prison,

Starting point is 01:03:46 or even worse, the death penalty. Heck, even his defense team sort of thought through. that because after his sentencing, his lawyer was quoted saying, we're very happy with the sentence. We think that it reflects what the judge thought was a weakness in the state's case, so we're pleased. But a lot of people out there are still divided on his guilt or his innocence. Obviously, the jury came back very quickly with a guilty verdict, but the witnesses had all said that they saw him sleepwalk. But then again, we know scientifically you can't sleepwalk if you're dreaming. So what was the motive? Why would he attack his sister? And that kind of brings me back to what I talked about early on in this episode.

Starting point is 01:04:23 And this is just opinion that's out there. There is no evidence to prove this. This is just theory, conversation, do your own research. It's nothing concrete. But what a lot of people are suggesting out there who do believe that this was premeditated and that he is guilty is that he is a 17-year-old boy, that he became fixated and enamored with this knife, that it signaled something to him, whether, you know, I don't know if he attributed it to a body, part or not, who the heck knows, but similar to a pyromaniac or people who get pleasure

Starting point is 01:04:55 mentally, emotionally, sexually, physically for different types of things that this knife meant something to him and he wanted to use it. I also don't know a lot of the details about how quickly Megan was stabbed, how deep the wounds were, if it was slowly, if it was like in a frenzy, what it looked like. But the argument out there, or the theories I should say out there, are that he just became so fixated on this knife and that he's a 17-year-old kid. His mind is not fully formed. He's impulsive. He wants instant gratification for things that he's possibly turned on by the knife itself and that he used this. Is that real? I don't know. You tell me what you think. Are there other possible motives? We haven't seen many. Or did the jury get this wrong? And was this just a horrific

Starting point is 01:05:46 accident and is science wrong, I guess, and can you sleepwalk if you're not in REM? I don't know. Has there ever been a case about that that somebody's been able to live to tell? I don't know. So people are still pretty divided out there, and I'm curious to know what you guys think about this case. It's a tough one because it's two young kids, 17 years old, one life has ended, and the other is in prison? And is it just? Is it fair? What really happened? I don't know if we'll ever have the answers. So let me know what you guys think. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Serial Lusley with me.

Starting point is 01:06:22 I'll be back on the mic with you. First thing on Thursday with headline highlights where we break down everything going on this week in the true crime world. Until the next one. Be nice. Don't kill people. Please try not to sleepwalk if you can help it. And just watch your back.

Starting point is 01:06:37 All right. Bye. Thank you.

SERIALously - 335: 17 Year Old Stabbed His Twin Sister To Death While She Slept | The Case of Meghan Elliot

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