SERIALously - 432: Family of 8 Found Dead Inside Michigan Home… Disturbing New Details Emerge | Karolkiewicz Family

Starting point is 00:00:00 I came in township for a residential choir at Riverside Trail. White smoke swimming out of the window. Police say they found the entire family, all eight members, dead to adults and six children. This was something that you just don't think is going to happen. We began investigating it as a suspicious death. Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly. Hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously with me, your host.

Starting point is 00:00:51 Annie Elise. I hope you are having a great start to your Monday, even though the likelihood of me ruining it right now is probably pretty freaking high, whether you are at work, on your way to work, going to school, cleaning the house, working out, wherever you are. I just hope that you take a moment right now, get into your Zen place, grab your, you know, emotional support drink, whether it's a coffee, a water, for me, a Diet Coke, because we have a lot to unpack in today's case. And it's one that I've chatted with you a little bit about via headline highlights, but I haven't done a big deep dive into it until now just because there was so little information out there. And even so right now, there still isn't a whole bunch of information,

Starting point is 00:01:43 but there is at least more. And there are some theories out there that I do think, are they're worth discussing. I, of course, will identify what is speculation versus what is fact. But I do think it's important to go over all the possibilities of motive, of backstory, and everything that rolls into it because it helps give us a clearer picture of how this tragedy even happened or why it happened. So today's case is the one of the Michigan family massacre, a man who annihilated his entire family, then turned the weapon on himself, and tried to cover up the evidence by strategically lighting fires all throughout the house. Now, family annihilator cases have unfortunately been all over everybody's feeds lately. I mean, at least mine. Maybe not yours,

Starting point is 00:02:37 which, hooray for you, if it's not, but I feel as though my feed is just getting flooded with these cases. And so with the case today, like I said, we're going to be talking about one of the more recent cases that has left people with a lot of questions. And it's one that I just felt like I really needed to come on here as your true crime bestie and break it down for you as best as I can. And this is the case of the Carol Kiewicz family who lived in Grand Haven, Michigan. So a little bit of the backstory. On July 24th, firefighters were called to a home after there were reports of smoke coming from the property. However, once they then entered the property, what they found inside was absolutely devastating, because an entire family of eight people had been shot and killed. And pretty

Starting point is 00:03:25 early on, investigators said that 47-year-old Chris Karolkiewicz, who was the father and the husband of this family, is the one who was behind all of it, that he shot and killed his wife, Mandy, and their six children, before then setting multiple fires all throughout the home and ultimately taking his own life. Now, while that alone is a huge, unimaginable tragedy, the more that the investigators uncovered, the more complicated this case became. There became questions about the timeline, the motive, the family's history, Chris's employment, and if that had any sort of role in this, the marriage itself, and even some claims about a final email that was sent, an email that may shed a little bit of light on what was going through Chris's mind when all of this unfolded. And look, that's not completely

Starting point is 00:04:19 abnormal, right? In a lot of these cases, not necessarily family annihilator cases, but, well, let me rephrase that, not necessarily in family annihilator cases where they end up taking their own life too. But in family and I are later cases elsewhere, it's not uncommon that a note is left behind or an email or, you know, a wedding ring left out on the table. Little things that help you start to piece together, okay, what was the frame of mind here? Obviously, this person was trying to distance themselves or creating a disconnect with the family itself, either in some cases we've unfortunately heard where the sheets are pulled over the loved one's faces because they do want to create that distance and that disconnect so they don't have to see their loved ones faces. So the reason

Starting point is 00:05:10 I bring all of that up is because this email that people are saying it sheds a lot of light on his mental state and what the potential motive and underlying factors were, it does raise some questions. And I want to talk through that with you. So that's what we are going to be doing today. And I know I already mentioned it. So I'm sorry to like rehash it. But basically my goal is to go through everything that I've learned about this case. What happened inside the home? What led the investigators to determine that it was crisp behind all of this? What the investigators have uncovered since this horrific discovery? And of course, most importantly, what could have led an entire family of eight to being killed in a single night? So let's start with the timeline.

Starting point is 00:05:52 It all started on Friday, July 24th, 2026. On the morning of July 24th, around 849, a.m., first responders were called to a neighborhood in West Michigan. This was after somebody had reported smelling smoke in the area. Now, at first, firefighters could not find an active house fire. So they ended up investigating a little bit, but they couldn't find an active fire. So they left. But then, a few hours later, they started getting more calls and more calls, saying, oh, now there is white smoke that is coming from a very specific home in the Grand Haven area. Okay, 911 was the address of your emergency. Riverside Trail in Grand Haven. Riverside Trail. Okay, what's your first and last name with spelling? And a good callback number in case we get disconnected. Okay, tell me exactly what happened.

Starting point is 00:06:58 We were taking our dog's road to walk and there is smoke coming out of this house and my boyfriend's honing on the door of this car in the driveway, but nobody's answering. And there's smoke coming out of a window. That is... Correct. Okay. You guys are at that residence now and you can't make contact? Yes. Yeah, we're trying to knock on the door. I know they do have two dogs. Okay. Give me one second here, okay?

Starting point is 00:07:28 Yep. What color is the smoke? It's white, it looks like. It smells almost electrical. I think, I don't know. It's coming out of one of the windows on the far. So when crews were dispatched and they went back out to that neighborhood a few hours later, this was eight, nine, ten, ten, eleven, about three. hours later, they went out at 1146 a.m. And this time, they found the house that was on fire. And they started working immediately to put out this fire. Not only put it out, but starting from the outside before then entering the inside to put it out. Because they knew on approach, they needed to contain this as fast as possible. So the first step was, okay, let's put all of these flames out that we can see on the exterior of the house. Then safely and securely,

Starting point is 00:08:16 we will work our way inside the house to put out those flames and see if anybody was inside, see if we can save anybody, and really work from the outside in. But as I mentioned, when they then entered the home, that's when they made the horrifying discovery. A family of eight, all dead. And here's what struck them as odd. This family wasn't dead from smoke inhalation or from burns or anything like that. They were dead from gunshot wounds, meaning they had likely died prior to this fire even starting. And even more disturbing, their bodies were found in all different bedrooms of the house. So think about that for a moment. They're walking into this. They see that these deceased people, who they didn't know at the time were family members, but that these deceased people

Starting point is 00:09:04 had died from gunshot wounds, not even the fire itself. And it wasn't as though all of them had gathered together. They were trying to escape the house fire. They were trying to escape a burglar or something like that, all of these family members were in different rooms throughout the house, which to me immediately indicated, oh, there was an element of surprise here. They weren't expecting what happened to them to have happened. They were caught off guard, which is why they were all in separate rooms. And let's go through the victims. First, there was 39-year-old Amanda, who went by Mandy, 47-year-old Christopher, who went by Chris, their 15-year-old son Keegan, 12-year-old Bennett, their 11-year-old twin daughters, Caroline and Ella, who, by the way, had been adopted by this family from China,

Starting point is 00:09:55 11-year-old Smith, and 5-year-old Theodore, who went by Teddy. So you have a 5-year-old, 311-year-olds, a 12-year-old, a 15-year-old, and then two parents, 39 years old and 47 years old. Units made inside, made entry inside to battle the fire because there was smoke showing from the residents. When they got inside, they noticed that there was several numerous people deceased inside the home. They then notified the sheriff's office and we began an investigation into that. So what I can tell you at this point is that eight people are dead inside the home. There's two adults and six children.

Starting point is 00:10:33 All eight bodies were immediately sent to the medical examiner's office because they knew they needed to investigate. They needed to perform these autopsies and figure out what the hell happened here. And sure enough, the Ottawa County Sheriff's Investigators called in the Michigan State Police to assist with this investigation. They weren't sure what they were dealing with. Could this have been a stranger? Could this have been a robbery gone wrong? And then they tried to set the house on fire to dispose of evidence. What really happened here?

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Starting point is 00:13:02 and $10 off your first month if you join. So that afternoon, a search warrant was obtained, and the investigators started collecting evidence to try to figure out not only what happened, but also to build a timeline. Then the following day, on Saturday, July 25th, a neighbor who lived in the house behind this family called 911. Now, in this 911 call, the caller told the dispatchers

Starting point is 00:13:34 that she had heard gunshots the night before. She said that she heard these gunshots, sometime between 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. However, she wasn't sure if she should worry because she wasn't sure if maybe she was mistaking these gunshots for fireworks, firecrackers, different noises like that. And again, I think that this is also something pretty common. And just speaking for myself, I live in Orange County. I don't really live close to Disneyland, but I live close enough that I can hear the fireworks at night. I can't see them, but I can hear them. And even around the beaches on the 4th of July, I can't tell you how many times I've heard what I believe is our fireworks. But then I question

Starting point is 00:14:18 myself being like, well, could those have been gunshots? I don't want to overreact. But like, there is a correlation between the sounds. And we've also heard this in past cases as well, that they didn't report anything because they thought it was just a firecracker or a firework going off because they do sound, unfortunately, very similar. And it's hard to know that distinction unless you're a trained officer or you're highly trained around firearms. So she said that she heard what she now thinks were gunshots between 8 and 9 p.m. And she said that the reason that she now actually was prompted to call 911 and report this is because she heard that this entire family was dead. Before she was trying to chalk it up to fireworks, but now hearing that her whole entire

Starting point is 00:14:59 neighborhood family was deceased, she knew that she needed to call and give the details of what happened to the police. Yes, regarding the eight people that were killed in Grand Haven Township. Yeah. Last night we were watching TV. We live off of 152nd on a private drive, so they're behind us. And when we were watching TV last night, I can't say for sure, but I thought I heard two gunshots. And I was going to say something to my husband, but they were, what about,

Starting point is 00:15:38 They weren't, like, outside. They were, you know, in the distance. So did I hear a firecracker or did I hear a fireworks, you know, or did I hear a gunshot? And now with this, I'm kind of assuming I heard a gunshot. Okay. And it's probably between 8 and 9 o'clock last night. I know it was after 8, and maybe between 8 and 8.30 and, I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:16:04 That's upsetting me. Yeah, no, I get it. 8 and 930. Okay. So I'm just wanted to say that, yes, I do think I, that if you need some time parameters, I think that's when I heard something last night. Okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:22 Absolutely. Would you mind if I took some information from you so that our deputies could call you if they need to? Yeah. So over the weekend, the investigation continues. Then it kicks into a little bit of overdrive by Monday. This was July 27th. Because then, investigators collected a gas can, a grill lighter, carpet samples, fire debris, burned paper towels, and other evidence from several bedrooms throughout the house.

Starting point is 00:16:49 So immediately upon collection, they sent all of this to the Michigan State Lab for processing. That same day, too, as I said, it was a big day, the autopsy findings were released. And it was determined for sure that all eight family members died of gunshot. wounds, and more than that, that Chris's gunshot wound was self-inflicted, that he took his own life. The fire that was started after the deaths also killed at least three dogs and one cat that was inside the home. So the investigators then held a press conference, and they said in this press conference that the evidence suggested that Chris not only shot his wife and his kids, but that then, before turning the gun on himself, he set fire to the house in all different corners of the house, which is so cruel

Starting point is 00:17:40 and callous, because first of all, to, you know, desecrate your loved one's bodies in such a way and try to burn away their bodies and the evidence, but also there were living animals still inside this house. Why didn't he just open a door? Let the dogs out. Let the cat out. Why start fires strategically and calculatedly in all these corners of the house to ensure that the house was engulfed in flames and that no one would have a chance of survival. That is pretty freaking cold-hearted and evil, in my opinion. Now, it was also said that the handgun that was used in these murders was illegally registered to Chris. He bought it about two weeks before the murders. So was this premeditated? Was this planned? And this becomes really important as we continue. They also mentioned,

Starting point is 00:18:30 that Mandy had likely died before the children. Her death certificate lists her date of death as on or after July 23rd, while the children and Chris's death date, they are all listed as having died July 24th. Now, there could be a few reasons for that, right? One being he killed her because he knew that she was probably the strongest in the house and could potentially fight back if she heard the other gunshots going off and that she could either collect, she could either maybe fight him off,

Starting point is 00:19:00 collect the kids, run away, do something. So making the active choice to take the strongest one out first. I also do think, and I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this, and I'm curious to know your thoughts. For Mandy,

Starting point is 00:19:15 I kind of think it was a blessing in disguise. The fact that she didn't have to witness all six of her children be killed at the hands of their father. Not that it makes it any better or easier, but at least for her it was quick and she went and she didn't have to witness that, hear it or see it. Because as a mother, that is obviously the worst possible scenario imaginable, right? To see your children in pain, to see them fearful, to see them killed. So I don't

Starting point is 00:19:45 know. I mean, there's no silver lining here, obviously, in anything. I just, that does give me a little bit of comfort for her, not for the kids, because I do still believe that they were probably fearful, even if they were asleep, even if only one woke up, but at least it's comfort for her, if that makes sense. So the medical examiner also believed that each person died either immediately or within seconds of being shot. And that also is a comforting thought to think about. Nobody was shot and then was bleeding out and in pain and in agony for minutes or hours or until the fire then started and they were unable to move and the gunshot is what ultimately killed them, but still they were scared to death and they knew what was going on or that the second victim was shot and had to hear

Starting point is 00:20:34 all of the other gunshots and know that their family members were being killed. At least according to this and according to the medical examiner, at least it happened where they died immediately or within seconds of it happening. There were also no signs of struggle inside the home, and there had never been any law enforcement calls made to the home in the past, which this became an important topic. Because any time there is a family annihilator case or a mass family murder case, usually you want to look at history. You want to see, okay, was there a pattern here? Had there been past domestic dispute calls made to the home? Was there domestic violence at any point? Was there escalation? Was there a pattern. And in this case, there really wasn't. There were no signs of struggle. There were no

Starting point is 00:21:22 other law enforcement calls to the home in the past, which that doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't a history of some sort of abuse taking place. It could have just gone unreported. But that also then is going to carry us through to what we talk about in a few minutes here, the possible motive, the gun being purchased two weeks ahead of time, and things like that. But first, I want to play this clip for you where the police chief is saying that the incident started the night before and that it went into the following morning. Take a listen. Spark says they may have taken place long before their discovery around noon on Friday. We believe that this incident could have started the night before and then carried over into the morning, you know, early morning hours.

Starting point is 00:22:07 The sheriff's office did not find any sign of a struggle and said no one aside from Christopher fired the handgun used in the killings. Neighbors told News Channel 3 they never had any indication something like this would happen of feeling echoed by police. Is there a history of calls for law enforcement to this residence at all? I'm not aware of any, no. Now, even though there was no past history and no calls made and that this seemingly happened out of nowhere, I think that that's all the more reason why this community is struggling so much with this news. They're really having a difficult time grappling with what happened.

Starting point is 00:22:40 My kids are telling me that they're feeling unsettled just overall. not knowing, you know, exactly what happened. And it's just scary. It's a scary feeling, you know, to be a teenager and to know that this happened to children is really, really unsettling and pretty heavy for them right now. So now I want to talk a little bit about the family, the family history, the family dynamics, and everything that rolls into it. The husband and father, Chris, worked from home.

Starting point is 00:23:12 He worked from the family's home. and he served as the National Vice President of Sales and Marketing for the American Heart Association. He worked for them from September of 2023 to July of 26. And remember, this all happened in July of 26. So in that position, he supported the organization's CPR and first aid training division. Now, his employment ended in July of this year, as I just mentioned, right shortly before the killings. However, no official information has been released, as, to why he stopped working there, or if it had anything to do with this situation.

Starting point is 00:23:48 If he was fired, if he was there, I've seen rumors of embezzlement, I've seen rumors of an affair, and we'll talk through all of this in a moment once we get to the theories section, but no official announcement has been made of why he was no longer working there and if it has any sort of direct correlation with the murders. Mandy, the mother, the matriarch, and the wife, she was remembered as someone, who dedicated her life to helping others. She was very passionate about special needs and trauma-informed advocacy. She also was passionate about mindfulness, reading, traveling, and spending time along the Lake Michigan shoreline. She also worked as a substitute teacher, where she was described as

Starting point is 00:24:32 someone who went above and beyond for her students, especially for students who were struggling or having difficult days. She wanted to lend her heart and a hand to them. She wanted to help guide them, get them through any sort of struggles that they were having. Years before her death, Mandy even wrote a children's book about learning to see the good in yourself. This book is called The Magical Mantra, and she dedicated the book to her children, which I think that that is so beautiful. Like, not only are you an amazing mother who loves your own children, you've adopted two children from China, but you make it your life's mission to help others, passionate about special needs, writing a children's book that she dedicated to her own children, but for other children to consume that is teaching

Starting point is 00:25:18 them about how to see the good in themselves and just how to raise confident young children. I mean, it's incredible, right? It's like such a selfless thing to do and such, I don't know, an empowering mission to have. So fast forward a couple of weeks later. And on Thursday, August 13th, 2026, new information was released about the fires and not just about the fires, but how they were started and what the investigators believed happened in the moments leading up to the murders. So police said that they had found multiple suspected spots where the fire was started in the house. And get this. There was at least one fire in each of the six kids' bedrooms. Then there was another fire started under the basement stairs and another in the basement storage room.

Starting point is 00:26:06 So Chris seemingly wanted to engulf this house in flames. He wanted nothing left behind. He wanted to burn it all to the ground. And I want to just level set here for a moment. What this would mean if you were Chris, okay? You kill your whole family, right? You shoot all of them in their beds, in their bedrooms while they're sleeping, while they're not expecting it. Then you go even further and not only light these fires to try to burn any sort of evidence or remains, but you go into each of your six children's bedrooms see that they are dead, reminded of what you just did, and still make an active choice to grab a paper towel roll, light it on fire, and set it down in the corner of the room. Finishing the work that you had just done. Finishing your mission. It is so diabolical to even think about. Like, what kind of fucking monster does this? I, you know, I can't say that, like, I understand heat of the moment, making a rash decision and shooting your family and doing that, I don't understand it. There's no part of me that will ever understand it. However, I would hope and pray and think that

Starting point is 00:27:22 maybe once you walk back into that bedroom for a second time and see what you had done, that you feel a little bit of remorse or a little bit of shame, but you don't. Or he didn't. He doubled down and just stuck that paper towel down there, lit it on fire with one of those long grill lighters and left and went to the next bedroom. One after another. It is sick. And look, based on what we've heard so far, it doesn't even seem like it was a one and done in each bedroom and that he was successful at starting the fires the first time, because what they found was partially burned and also completely burned paper towel rolls, suggesting that there had been multiple attempts to start a fire. Some of the fires went out because they ran out of oxygen.

Starting point is 00:28:10 while others caused major damage to the house and, you know, took flight and carried on throughout and engulfed the house in flames. But he really made a concerted effort to get the job done. If you are a hot sleeper like me, summer nights can be brutal. There is nothing worse than getting into bed, trying to go to sleep, but immediately feeling too warm and kicking the covers off, turning down the AC, and still just like not getting comfortable. Well, this summer, when we were traveling. We were at an Airbnb and I swear these sheets in this bed. I was like, what are these magical sheets? How am I staying so cool? What is going on? And I looked and it was Bowling Branch, which I've heard about them. I've tried them, but I couldn't believe it. Their summer bedding

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Starting point is 00:30:39 the natural way. Head to Veracityhealth.co and use code AE for up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's V-E-R-A-C-I-T-Y-Halth.C-O for up to 65% off and make sure that you use my promo code AE so you get the discount and they know I sent you. And then things get even more eerie when the investigators noticed that several of the smoke detectors seemed to have been missing from the home. At least one of them was taken from the main floor and then a number. another was pulled from the basement wall. So, obviously, in my mind, the only thought that comes to mind as to why those would have been manually removed and missing is because he didn't want it triggering the fire department to come and intervene. And remember, the only reason that the fire

Starting point is 00:31:32 department came both times at 8 a.m. and again, at 11 a.m., is because there were 9-1-1 calls coming in from people passing by in the area. It wasn't because a smoke alarm went off or something was detected or a neighbor heard the beeping of the smoke detector. So my thought, and maybe there's another rational reason, but the only thing that comes to my mind is that, oh, no, he wanted these fires to burn as long as possible. He wanted to get rid of everything he possibly could in that house and, you know, anything to disintegrate and burn up that he could, right? Why else would you do that? It's not because you're trying to have some sort of insurance case and commit fraud and say that, oh, no, it was an accidental fire and we didn't notice because there were

Starting point is 00:32:17 no smoke detectors. Like, first of all, you couldn't even get away with that because obviously it was arson. They found a gas can. They found the lighter. They found the paper towel rolls. But like, what other reason could there have been rather than not wanting people to be notified sooner? Right. But here's where it does get a little bit weird. And I am curious to know what you make of this. So this report also says that the home was insured. through State Farm under a policy that had been purchased just three days earlier. Three days earlier on July 21st. And this policy was purchased by Mandy.

Starting point is 00:32:55 Now, at this point, there is no evidence suggesting that Mandy had any sort of knowledge or participation in any of this. That's not to say she didn't. This is still very much under investigation. But my thought was, okay, that doesn't really, you know, hold a whole lot of weight for me on my insurance policies, whether it's for our cars, our house, whatever it is. I'm on some of them. Jeremiah is on some of them. It just, you know, it depends on who's calling, who has the time to do it. But I can't help but wonder, if this was Chris's plan and if it had been building and it was premeditated,

Starting point is 00:33:31 which we know, he bought the gun two weeks earlier, was there ever a thought in his mind that he was going to leave a survivor and that he wanted that survivor to have the money. Whether that survivor be himself, maybe Mandy, whomever. But why else ensure the home three days earlier, unless you are expecting a payout? And then did something change in his mind along the way to where he decided, I'm going to take my own life too, or I'm not going to leave a surviving family member to collect this money or whatever's going through his mind. And maybe my brain is like completely rotted right now from the Clancy trial because I've just been inundated with that to where I can't think straight. And maybe there's a totally different reasonable explanation, which sound off in the

Starting point is 00:34:20 comments if there is. But that's the only thing I can come up with. Like, why would you ensure your house three days before unless you had every intention of collecting on that policy? I don't know. It doesn't really make sense. Now let's speak to the family dynamics. for a moment. Because as we know, there have been no past indications that there was any sort of domestic disputes within the home. There was nothing indicated that they were an active turmoil or that there was chaos within the home. And even more than that, Mandy's father, Gary Anderson, he spoke out after she was murdered. And not only did he say he loves his daughter and he loves those six kids, but he also said, quote, in a way, I still love Chris, which is,

Starting point is 00:35:04 kind of a bold statement, right? You still have love for this man who seemingly wiped out your entire family, not your entire family, but your daughter, your grandkids, and broke apart your family. That is a hell of a lot of compassion to still have, and he's a bigger person than I am, because I don't know that I would be able to utter those words if I were in his shoes. So, I mean, props to Gary. But Gary also said that he was still struggling to understand the why, saying, I'm sure that it will come out in the future, but I just have no idea why. And that's been a question that so many people have been trying to grapple with. Why did this happen? How did this happen? It makes no sense. Like, there was no paper trail. There was no electronic trail. There was no

Starting point is 00:35:50 sort of like indication that this would happen aside from the premeditation you could argue of purchasing the firearm and then getting the home insurance policy. But nobody understood what the root cause and motive was here. So let's get into a little bit of that. Let's get into a little bit of the speculation with that. There has been a lot of talk about this case out there. You name it. Social media, Reddit, mass media, wherever you look on the internet, whether it's articles, mainstream media, Reddit, there are theories and there is chatter everywhere. And the chatter mainly circles around what motive Chris may have had in all of this. Now remember, Chris was fired. from his job at the American Heart Association, and that was right before all of this happened.

Starting point is 00:36:38 And there was a lot of speculation as to why he got fired. More than that, though, there was speculation that maybe that was the catalyst in all of this, that maybe losing his job was what catapulted him into killing his entire family. There was also a lot of talk about his and Mandy's marriage, and if there were any sort of issues there that could have led Chris to, quote, snap. And look, I kind of take a little bit of personal issue with this. And not because I think people are looking for a motive. I think that that's natural and I think it's natural to ask questions and be curious. But I am so sick to death of people asking the question when there is a murder or when there is a familicide saying, well, what made him snap? Was there something going on in the home that made him snap?

Starting point is 00:37:24 Is there something she did that made him snap? And I bring that up too because recently I was working on a documentary for with Elizabeth Chambers who does a lot of work within advocacy for domestic violence survivors and toxic relationships. She actually has a show called toxic. I've had her here on the podcast before. And we talked a lot about that in just an off-the-cuff conversation. Like, why do, why are people so quick to say something forced them and trigger them to snap? And that that then takes the blame and the choice away from them making this choice, this active choice and it puts the blame on it an alternative factor or an alternative person. You think of even the show snapped itself, right? It's like, no, he made a choice to do this. He coherently decided to do

Starting point is 00:38:12 this by saying and asking the question, well, what made him snap? You're now diluting that choice from him and saying something, it was like a causation on him. And I think that that then waters down what he did and just how vile he is. That's my personal opinion. So I understand the question and I understand that it's a common question and it's a common term that people use in all sorts of murder cases. Like, what made them snap? What happened? But I don't know, it's a little triggering for me and I take issue with it. And maybe that's just me being overly sensitive. But sorry to go off on that tangent. But like, that's just where I'm out with it. Now, I want to go through all of this speculation, okay? But keep in mind, everything that I'm about to

Starting point is 00:38:53 tell you is alleged. It has not proven to be true. It is just speculation. So as always, do your own research, form your own opinions, come to your own conclusions. So let's get into the marriage of it all. And also a past affair. Back in 2024, so two years before these murders happened, Mandy had actually written on a subreddit called As One After Infidelity. And her entry on this subreddit was about Chris allegedly cheating on her with a younger intern years earlier. So just for time line,

Starting point is 00:39:28 mind's sake, the cheating, or I'm sorry, the entry was back in 2024, so two years before the murders, but in the entry, it said that the cheating happened years before that. When exactly? We don't know, but years before 2024. So she wrote a reply on a thread where someone was apparently asking for advice. And she said, quote, my husband literally cheated on me with a younger version of me, except way wilder than I ever was. When my husband and I met, I was, I was, I was. When my husband and I met, was the intern at the company that we both worked for. He was divorced and older than me. Fast forward, 10 years and five kids, he was now cheating with the intern again, the same age I was when I was the intern. So obviously, not the best track record, right? Cheating, though, doesn't mean you're

Starting point is 00:40:16 going to be a murderer, not but like I all say, just get a divorce. But he was divorced and older when they met, because remember, too, he was, she was 39 years old and he was 46. He was, years old. So not a full 10 years older, but eight years older than her. So she's saying, okay, yeah, well, when I was the young intern, right, when he was fresh off a divorce, we hooked up. Now he's cheating on me with another intern who was the same age when he and I got together. You know, kind of like, not Peter Pan syndrome, but always going to the younger girls, right? It's like a cliche, tale is oldest time. So then in another reply, she said that if it wasn't for the children that they shared, she wouldn't have worked toward patching things up with her husband,

Starting point is 00:41:00 saying, quote, we have six kids. They are why I worked for reconciliation. I would not have stayed if we didn't share them, or even if they were out of the house, I probably wouldn't have stayed. I kept telling myself, I love my kids more than I hate my husband right now. They have no idea that I faked it until we made it. And now, we're in a much better place four and a half years out, but it's still a fight to stay in a healthy place. And I can relate to this, okay? I think a lot of women can relate to this. And we hear about this so many times, right?

Starting point is 00:41:34 When you have children, especially young children, it's difficult to know what you will or will not tolerate, what your threshold for shit is. And I'm not saying that my husband has done anything. He hasn't. Jeremiah is an angel. Well, I mean, not an angel, but an angel when it comes to cheating, he still puts his mugs on the counter rim

Starting point is 00:41:51 and not in the sink where they belong. No, but we hear about this all the time in cases, not even in cases, but just in everyday life. Like they either, there's either infidelity, they are no longer in love with one another, they fight all the time, they hate each other, but for whatever reason, they stay together for the kids, either until the kids graduate and are out of the house or just indefinitely. So in this entry, I think that really is what she's illustrating. I have young children. I have young children. I I wanted to fake it until we made it. And we did come out the other end.

Starting point is 00:42:24 And we came out on the other side of this. And they have no idea that this happened. And it's common. People want to protect the nuclear family. And so like I said, their threshold for cheating, anger, resentment, that changes. It fluctuates. It's fluid because they don't want to disrupt the family. However, people also noticed that in one of her very first posts, she said that Chris had

Starting point is 00:42:50 some, quote, major red flags that she ignored. And she said that he was raised in a, quote, toxic family dynamic that encouraged lying. Now, as for the exact post, she said, he has always had major red flags that I ignored due to my own trauma and anxious attachment. He was raised in a toxic family dynamic that encouraged lying about everything. For an example, don't tell your dad I bought that for you, or don't tell your mom that you were here for this long, or she might get mad, which I was always vocal about how dumb it was. Once we had kids, I refused that behavior in front of them because I didn't want them to learn it as well. I have always caught him in the dumbest lies. And prior to D-Day, I actually never even approached them with him because I always figured that they

Starting point is 00:43:36 were stupid, minor, and not worth it. Now, I think the D-Day that she's referring to is the affair. But that kind of goes hand in hand. Like, okay, he's lying about little things. Like, don't tell your mom how much sugar you had. Don't tell her this. Don't tell them. that, who's to say that that's going to go from smaller scale lies to lying about a full-blown affair, but obviously in this case, wasn't too far from one another. So then she went on to talk about how they started marriage counseling and how Chris got very emotional and angry over simple things that they would talk about in these sessions, saying, quote, I was able to very clearly express my needs, not angrily, but clearly and firmly. I finished my statement with, you know,

Starting point is 00:44:18 turning to the counselor. Her reply was, I hear you. But do you hear her, Chris? He seemed fine in the moment, but the rest of the day, it's always emotionally draining after stuff like this, which feels pretty normal. I woke up in the middle of the night and I realized he wasn't asleep. He was having trouble sleeping and he was so angry and mad at himself because the counselor asked him if he heard me. It seems like such a big reaction to a pretty normal question from a marriage counselor. He is so sensitive to correction that I'm feeling so discouraged that we will ever be able to make progress. And this is something I also take issue with. Men or women who gaslight and play victim after their bad behavior. Now, I don't know about you if you've ever been in a relationship like that.

Starting point is 00:45:06 I certainly have been. Not my current relationship, but past relationships, where I caught them cheating and then somehow they reverse Uno card back onto me as though I'm the problem and that I'm over reacting and that I am the cause of it or that like I just don't understand so much so to where would I really think about it right now guys I was in a such a fucked up relationship once that I caught him actively cheating then I you know full bore go psychopath and like I starts yelling at him and pissed off and threatening to break up with him which threatening how pathetic I should have broken up with him but then he pulled the uno reverse card on me and started making me feel like it was my fault and that I had been neglecting him to where I started apologizing.

Starting point is 00:45:52 I started saying, I'm sorry, you're right. It wasn't your fault. Like, we'll get through this. But then sometimes, and again, tell me if you've ever been in a dynamic like this, they take it even further to where they start giving you the silent treatment, where you're trying to get back in their good graces, where you are walking on egg shells when it's their bad behavior to begin with. And like, I look back at that time in my life, kind of shaking myself and kicking myself, being like, what the hell were you thinking, Annie? Like the writing was on the wall. But when you love someone, I think that that sometimes happens.

Starting point is 00:46:24 You have this, whether they're a true narcissist or not, but you have this dirtbag who's trying to gaslight you and make you feel like you're in the wrong for their choices. And it seems like that's what happened here with Chris, that after these sessions, he would give her the cold shoulder. He'd be angry. He would, you know, be upset that he would and have this big reaction because she, the counselor dare questioned him if he even, if he understood something.

Starting point is 00:46:51 Like, I just, it bothers me so much because I am so familiar with that behavior. You all know I love a good way to unwind at the end of a long day. I'm trying to decompress. I'm trying to like get in my Zen state of mind. But I don't always want alcohol or bloating or waking up the next morning feeling like I'm regretting it. Well, that's where Willie's THC-infused social tonic. really comes in. It's Willie Nelson's own premium social tonic, and if there's anyone that I trust to know about good cannabis, hello, it is Willie Nelson. It gives you that relaxing, uplifting, euphoric buzz that you can actually feel in about 15 minutes, but without the hangover. Each bottle

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Starting point is 00:48:11 Or use the store locator to find Willis on shelves near you, like your local total wine, specs, ABC, or local liquor store. She also later wrote that her husband understood that she would never accept infidelity again, writing, he knows that I now know that I deserve better than what he gave me in the past. Now, the affair actually took place four and a half years prior to these posts in 2019 and 2020. They didn't start counseling, though, until these posts were made, which was in 2024. And although Mandy appeared to share a lot of this online, her family says that she was very very private about it when it came to sharing personal matters within her family or with friends.

Starting point is 00:49:00 So if all of this was true and if they were struggling this badly or had struggled in the past this badly, nobody in her life knew about it because she never told them. And I also think that that's pretty common because first, you don't want judgment if you choose to stay. If I were to tell my mom tomorrow, you know, he's been cheating on me, but I'm going to stay with him for the kids, all these thoughts, you don't want that judgment, whether it's vocal or not, of somebody judging your choice to stay. You also don't want the awkwardness at family get-togethers in the future, where they're giving him the cold shoulder, or they're, you know, giving little jabs here and there and saying things. So sometimes it is easier to bottle it up inside. Is that the healthiest thing?

Starting point is 00:49:44 Absolutely not. But at least in Mandy's situation, it appeared that she did have an outlet. She went to the threads of Reddit to at least get some of this off her chest, which I would imagine would be a little bit cathartic in a way. But also, the way that Mandy was, you know, allegedly talking here, she sounds like she wasn't 100% confident that they could fix their marriage. And again, that the only reason she stayed in the first place was for her kids. So after reading all of these posts, people started wondering if there was still some kind of anger or resentment about the situation. or worse, if Chris was maybe still hiding something, and if he felt like the only way out of the situation this time was to kill his entire family.

Starting point is 00:50:27 Now, another theory that came up was that Mandy was still struggling with what happened in their marriage and that she was going to leave Chris and she was going to take the kids with her, which that too wouldn't be the first time that we've seen or heard something like that. So did she threaten to leave, even if there was no paper trail,

Starting point is 00:50:44 no meetings that she's had with attorneys, no confiding in a friend or a family member that she was planning to leave, but was she planning to leave? And is that why he did this in a, if I can't have you, no one can type of way, which we very often see in family annihilator type cases? I mean, even think of the Susan Powell case a little bit different, but not really. He did end up taking the life of his children and himself after he took Susan Powell's life, which I know they haven't found her body, but I believe that he fully, full stop was responsible for that. That could have very well been the case. We don't know yet. I would imagine more will be learned as this investigation continues, but it is a possibility. Now, another theory that is

Starting point is 00:51:26 out there is embezzlement. And this isn't being talked about as much, but when the story first broke and the detail that Chris had lost his job recently came out, some of the people who are local to the area said that the reason he had actually been fired from the American Heart Association was because he was embezzling money. Now, the talk about embezzlement, I want to be clear. It is completely alleged. And it's not known where this idea came from, who said it first, if there's any sort of rooted truth in it, how much money he was supposedly embezzling, or any other details. But it was brought up. And so I wanted to bring it up to you. Because it could be a possible motive, right? He's fired for embezzling. He knows that he's going to have to pay for some financial crimes,

Starting point is 00:52:11 that maybe the police are going to be investigating. Maybe there's such shame that is carried with that, that he decides to take his own life and that of his entire family, which at that point is like, just take your own life guy. But like, you know what I mean? Then there is the email of it all. And I talked about this at the top of this episode. Because in another Reddit thread,

Starting point is 00:52:32 an alleged family member of Chris's has spoken out. And they spoke out saying that there is still a lot that's going on that the public doesn't know about, including an alleged email that Chris sent just days before he did all of this. Now, this person claims that they are the brother of Chris's stepfather. And allegedly, this email, quote, explains his state of mind. And police do have that email in evidence now, so it is being looked into. The family member says, quote, Chris sent an email before he took his life.

Starting point is 00:53:05 A copy is in the hands of the Ottawa County detectives now. I did not personally read it, but it was wrong. read to me after being delivered to detectives. And it does help explain his state of mind. There is another thing that he mentioned in his email, which I believe exposes a flaw in our society as a whole. Chris mentioned that he felt that he was living behind a mask and that he lost his sense of self. It goes on to say, Chris's last words were in an email that he sent to John just prior to taking his own life, which apparently John is another family member. It says, and in his sick mind, it sounds like he really thought that he was doing the right thing.

Starting point is 00:53:43 He seemed to think that his children couldn't possibly be happy without the financial security that he had been providing. I've heard the embezzlement rumors, but there was nothing in his email that indicated that. It is consistent with the false life that he admitted to be living. So that's interesting, right? Because if this email is true, which and is fact-based, it is with the detectives right now, so I'm sure we will know in the short-term future. But that sentence, he seemed to think that his children couldn't possibly be happy without the financial security he had been providing.

Starting point is 00:54:17 Now, whether that or not proves embezzlement happened, who knows, but it does prove, or it at least insinuates that maybe this all did stem from him losing his job, even if he was just laid off because they were overstaffed or he was underqualified or, you know, an innocent enough reason. it's, could that have been enough to send him into a spiral to think that my kids will never be happy if I'm not financially supporting them the way that they're used to? And I'm doing the right thing by not having to have them suffer through a life like that. So I'm going to take all of us out. Maybe. I mean, it's not rational by any means, but it's possible. Now, this user also alleges

Starting point is 00:54:58 going into his double life or his life behind the mask that Chris barely graduated high school and that he dropped out of college. However, when you search his name on Ben Verified, the website, his education is listed as Mendoza College of Business at Notre Dame. So, I don't know, anybody can list anything, right? But is it verified? Who really knows? But in the post, it says, what I can say is that the reason that he lost his job may have been related to a history of making false claims on his job applications and resumes. He barely passed high school with D's. He dropped out of Grand Valley College, yet a search of his name on Ben Verified's list under the education section. It shows that he attended the Mendoza College of Business at Notre Dame

Starting point is 00:55:41 University. This user also says that Chris had a history of getting really great jobs, but only holding them for a short period of time. And he believes that Chris was using fake resumes to get all of those jobs. So they speculate that maybe the American Heart Association found out that he was lying about his credentials, which is what ultimately results. in him getting fired. And in this post, they say, based on information, AHA may have uncovered his fraud. His jig was up. Now look, I'm not saying it's okay to lie on your resumes or your work history or anything like that. But raise your hand if you've done it. I'm raising my hand right now. I think it's pretty common. And look, I never lied and said I'm a lawyer or a doctor or that I can

Starting point is 00:56:26 handle finances in some massive way. But I think people do. embellish or elaborate on their resume when they're trying to get a better job, not maybe outright lying and saying you held a position you never held or a degree that you never held, although I do unfortunately think that's kind of common too. But it's not the craziest thing I've ever heard. But it would explain why there's a lot of turnover with jobs he's held in the past. If he lies and says he's overqualified and then can't do the job and then they determine either, hey, you bullshit at us or you're just not qualified, so we're getting rid of you. And then he's constantly looking for new work. I would say this. Anytime I have embellished on a resume, I was damn confident that I'd be able

Starting point is 00:57:12 to do the job I was hired for. I would never say I could do something or had past history doing something that I couldn't figure out and do to the best of anybody's ability. So I don't know if he was like outright doing crazy outlandish lies, maybe. But who the hell knows? So I guess my question for you and for myself and as we continue diving into this is, was this a situation where Chris just couldn't handle being fired? He started spiraling. He started feeling like he wasn't good enough for his family and that he couldn't provide financially anymore. So he decided it would just be better to end it all? Or was it something that was going on in their marriage? that was never fully resolved, and it did cause him to feel like this was the only option.

Starting point is 00:58:02 I don't know. Remember, all of these motives and theories are alleged. They have not been confirmed by authorities. Police have not confirmed a motive at the time of this recording. And really, depending on what was left behind, aside from that email, we may never know the full motive. We might be able to piece it together if, say, there was a phone call with a divorce attorney, or if there was something else, but with everybody gone, it's going to be difficult to build an accurate timeline and accurate series of events of what really was the motivating factor here. And I also am still really stuck on the house insurance, right? Getting that three days prior.

Starting point is 00:58:41 Why would you do that and pay for a policy unless you had every idea of collecting on it? Unless, now that I'm saying it out loud, maybe he thought, that the beneficiaries would get the money, whether it's a brother, a dad, a grandfather, whatever it is, like that the house would go to them. But then again, also, not when there's clear signs of arson in the house. Then you don't get the policy. So I don't know. I'm confused on that. Curious to know your thoughts because, again, maybe I just have like brain rot right now because my mind has been all over the place with Clancy. But curious to know your thoughts. So I will keep you updated on this case. As we learn more, sound off in the comments on YouTube,

Starting point is 00:59:25 what you think the truth is and what was really going on here. Also, you can sound off in the comments on Spotify in the Q&A section. And for my Apple listeners, let me know in the review section on Apple. And while you're there, please give us a five-star review. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Serialously. I will be back with you not only Thursday with headline highlights, but also Tuesday on my second true crime podcast feed, 10 to Life, which if you're not following you yet, go follow. And I have a brand new case for you over there too, another deep dive. So between the two podcasts, every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, you're getting brand new episodes. So make sure that you're following both of those so that you

Starting point is 01:00:06 don't miss them. All right. Thank you so much. And until the next one, be nice. Don't kill people. Just get a divorce. All right. Bye.

SERIALously - 432: Family of 8 Found Dead Inside Michigan Home… Disturbing New Details Emerge | Karolkiewicz Family

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