Sex, Love, and What Else Matters - Flashback to Meeting Kristen’s Therapist

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Episode 159. Kristen’s therapist, Heather Frankovich, joins the podcast! Heather has been a Licensed Psychotherapist for over 20 years. As the Founder of Sourcing Joy, she’s a Performance Coach, inspirational speaker, and published author of Entrepreneur Disorder. On this week’s episode, Heather discusses what defines a successful relationship and what NEVER to do. Kristen and Heather open up about what Kristen has learned over her many years of therapy and coaching. They break down the differences between Joy vs. Happiness. Luke pops his therapy cherry and gets some honest answers about his ghosts from girlfriends’ pasts.  Sponsor: Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter promo code Doute Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. What's up y'all? Welcome back to Sex, Love, and What Else Matters. I hope everyone is having the most magical day. This is Kristen and with me as always is Luke. Hi Luke. Hi Kristen. Today's a very special podcast, and I am just excited out of my mind to have Heather Frankovich on.

Heather was Kristen's therapist for how many years? Oh my god, you guys, Heather is like my magical fairy godmother. She was my therapist for about a billion years. She was there through the crazy Kristen days and helped transform me into the one Amazing woman that I am now. I'm also so excited. I'm so excited for you to meet her finally All the stories everything you told me. I just can't imagine what she's heard If the fly on the wall could talk

It's also going to be my first time ever speaking with a therapist. Oh my gosh. This is going to be so great. I'm so excited for you. You know, yeah, let's do it. All right. I want to welcome Heather Frankovich to the podcast. Heather, this is so exciting. Luke and I have been freaking out about having you on as an expert in your field. So I said this a little bit earlier, but Heather was my therapist for many years. And I'm now a client of one of her companies and she is my personal performance coach within

my entrepreneurial endeavors. So Heather, welcome. Thank you. Very happy to be here, you guys. This is great. I'm so stoked. Yeah. So I just kind of want you to give you the floor to talk a little bit about, obviously you are a licensed therapist, but also, you know, talk a little bit about that and a little bit about your company, Sourcing Joy. You wrote a book that I'm obsessed with. So just kind of tell everyone a little bit about you. Thanks. Okay. Well, yes,

I have been in personal private practice for over 20 years here in Los Angeles. It has been my heart and soul for decades. But through that process, a niche emerged. I found myself always helping leaders, entrepreneurs, creatives, solopreneurs, and really became attached to the idea of working specifically with amazing people that are already doing amazing things. And so I have taken all my psychology practice and created a newer company.

It's about five years old now. It's called Sourcing Joy. And there's a specific reason why we call it Sourcing Joy. Yeah, you guys, let me just tell you, I learned the difference between happiness and joy. And I don't think that's something that a lot of people realize that they're different. I still don't have my head totally wrapped around it.

Well, she can explain it to me, but we have the expert here. Yeah, this is this is my take on it. And I think I think I have experience over and over again that can validate it. You know, a lot of us are trying to sell happiness and and there's books about happiness and smiley faces and be happy and X, Y, Z. And I just think it's a bunch of crap, honestly.

I think happiness is happiness is fleeting. And happiness is an external experience that happens outside of ourselves, it happens in relationship with another, and it's really not in our control. It comes and goes. And when we can tap into it, it's great. A hug from a friend, a really great moment,

an afternoon, a good connecting cry, these are all happy moments. But because they happen outside of us, they're elusive and we end up on the chase. And what happens, I believe, is that when we're looking for things outside of ourselves, we're always on the chase and we're not taking a look at ourselves. And joy is, I think, where it's really at. I definitely say that there's a spiritual component to joy in whether you believe in God or not. My only ask is that you buy into that there's

a force greater than you operating on your behalf at all times, whether you choose to engage with it or not. And joy resides within each of us. And it is inextractable. And it's always been there. I get a lot of clients come into me with heaps and piles of hurts and traumas and things that have happened to them and they've experienced.

And they don't believe for a second that there's a flicker of joy in there. But my whole point is we can peel back those layers. We can repurpose those pains for amazing things, and you can tap into your joy. And how would you guys feel if you realized, and I know you do, Kristen, like, at the core, you have access to joy at all times, any times,

even in the worst of times. if you realized, and I know you do, Kristen, like at the core, you have access to joy at all times, any times, even in the worst of times. I mean, it's, it's the most compelling thing. It keeps your hopes high. It helps with optimism. It helps you wake up in the morning. It helps you go to sleep at night, look at yourself in the mirror, like engage with people because it's, you know, and even, yeah, like you said, even in those times of, of hurt and trauma, we like to say, like when we were doing therapy, it's like, you have these tools in this toolkit now and to be able to tap into that tool and know that it's there and you have access to it rather than, oh, it's gone.

It's gone forever. Oh God, I'm not happy anymore. I'm not joyful anymore. It's gone. It's not true. What do you think, Luke? That, I mean, it makes me think I've spent these long stretches where I've been single and spent most of my time alone.

And so I've had to find those inner things that I can make myself happy on my own. And I think when there are times where you're feeling down, gratitude is one of the biggest things. It's the first thing I thought of when you said how joy is an internal thing and happiness is external. I'm not feeling the full overwhelming happiness from the gratitude, but it does get my day started.

I like can wrap my head around all the things that I appreciate all the things. You know, I'm grateful for the blessings I've had in my life. That's a good point. That's actually a really good example of the difference between joy and happiness. You're really describing, my go-to about joy

is a soul satisfying sense of wellbeing. If you sit with those words, you say those words, you're not bouncing off the wall. You're not high-fiving anybody. You are anchored and calm. And that's where joy lives. It's not very buoyant and bouncy and sparkly. It is exactly what you're saying.

And gratitude is the number one pathway to joy. So you are spot on about that. I call it my zen. I have to find my zen. Yeah, my Zen is essentially- You and I, Luke, have been on the phone before when you're off in Colorado or Indiana or whatever, right? And I'm having a day and I'm like, oh, this fucking apartment.

I missed my house. This fucking apartment. And then I have to stop myself and I'm like, how lucky am I? How fortunate am I that I can afford this apartment? That I have two bedrooms? That I'm in the neighborhood that I like, that my friend lives, you know, Katie lives in the same complex. Like, why am I sitting here bitching and moaning because I don't have my house

in my backyard? Like, no, be grateful, you know, and gracious. So, yeah, I totally think that's a really good POV. There's a story I give about the difference between joy and happiness. It's in my book. and I'm a water girl. So I'm so many I relate so much to water. But you picture your favorite lake or the beach. I'm a Lake Tahoe girl. So like I'm a Pisces, of course.

So you are the water. I am the water side. You picture I picture Lake Tahoe and I see happiness as the kids frolicking on the shoreline and the sunlight catching the waters and it sparkles and the boat zooming by and it's this happy buzz and you hear giggles or the sun setting and creating beautiful colors on the water. But inevitably, the boat has to go back to the dock and the children have to towel off and step inside and maybe get a popsicle or a hot chocolate. And everybody walks away.

And what we forget the whole time is what's still there. The water, it's never left. And the depth of that presence is because Goosebumps. Yeah, you just Goosebumps. When I finally grasped the fact that not only does my happiness not rely on my joy or happiness, not rely on someone else. It's once I tapped into that and I was owning that, I started realizing that I was dating people where they made it like my problem to make them happy.

And it was something when Heather and I would talk, it was like, she's like, you can't like, why would this person give you that much power? Number one, people don't even realize it that way, that like, when you're essentially saying, I can't be happy without you, I can't be fulfilled or joyful without this person. Like that's not what a partner is supposed to be. They're supposed to enhance your life.

Right. So I'll say, Kristen, in our conversations and interactions, there have been times where you get worked up because you don't think I'm happy. And it's like you're putting it on yourself. And I know I'm not putting it on you. You just like, why are you not happy? And I'm like, what's wrong? What's wrong? You're like, I'm happy. And it's like, you're putting it on yourself and I know I'm not putting it on you. You just like, why are you not happy? And I'm like, what's wrong?

What's wrong? You're like, I'm just chilling. I'm chilling. I said that there's a lot of times where I'm neutral. I'm totally cool. Like sitting here without any kind of emotion swing in either direction, just I'm chilling. I think that's because I'm so dynamic

that I don't really have a neutral. It's such a strange sighting. Yeah, I don't really, it's hard for me to have a neutral. It's such a strange sighting. Yeah, I don't. It's it's hard for me to have a neutral just because I'm so dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen, it brings up the question of whatever mood he's in that you're personalizing. Is it something that you need to know about and that you need to fix? It's it's that. Yeah, it's the fixer in me. It's the empath in me. Like when I did the the Enneagram, I'm, like, such a helper.

I think that was my number one. We'll talk to you guys about Enneagrams another time, but, yeah, it's a really interesting test that you can take. But Luke and I have been talking a lot lately about sort of defining a successful relationship. And yesterday, when Luke and I were talking off the podcast, we were like, is it achieving or is it defining?

And I think it's defining because when you say achieving, I feel like you said it as a destination in your mind. And to me, it is if you get too focused on a destination, you start ignoring all the things around you and you start living in the future and creates anxiety. That's my interpretation. But I'm coming from this. I've never. Heather, I'm super excited to talk to you because I have never talked to a therapist. I've never been to a therapy session. Let me know where I'm off base on some things.

Well, I think your I think your finger is on the pulse. You know, when you're trying to reach a goal in a relationship, you're trying to force something. And it does take you out of the present moment. And I think and I think you're more in touch with presence practice than you realize, which is a very important practice. I practice it all the day. I screw it up all the time.

But that really is the best place to hang out. But in defining a successful relationship, Kristen, I've always said, you're the architect of your relationship. You're the designer. And if you want to talk about a successful relationship, there's nothing really sexy about it, guys. It's not high heels and great vacations.

It's foundational components and how you value your foundational pieces. The true, the rebar and the cement that build the foundation. Things like trust, honesty, supportiveness, listening, caring, helping, whatever it is that you find are your cornerstones for a foundation.

Those are the foundation for the successful relationship because then life's going to happen. And your past is going to show up and your future anxieties are going to show up. And you're two unique worlds trying to live in the same space, so you're going to clash. So how do you navigate successfully relationship? That's really the question. It's about navigating.

Yeah. And something that I always remember like throughout all the relationships I've had is that you told me when you counsel or meet with couples, married couples or couples in general is that they're like four sort of major rules in order to keep the bones strong. And if you would like tell everyone about these four rules, cause they are so important. Well, there's lots of research that suggests this, this is not my rule, but planning your life together and living fully together,

meaning there's such a significant psychological value to it, like emotional health in a relationship by waking up together, by going to bed together, just something as simple as that creates a connection that's so important. But the one that I think is the most important because it is just so, what's the word, not natural. Because we all want to, like we said, achieve and win in life, whether it's career, whatever.

In a relationship, the best way you're gonna win, the way you'll be most successful, is to throw out the scorecard. Because when you're having a conflict, in any part of life, you're immediately grabbing an imaginary note card in a pen. I'm old, okay, maybe you grab your notes in your tablet. And you're starting to write down in your mind the rebuttals. Everything you want to say, oh, okay, that's not true.

Okay, I'm going to definitely tell her she's wrong about that. And, oh, my God, he doesn't even listen to me. I can't wait to remind him about this. Or remind yourself about it. I've definitely done that in past relationships where I'm like, oh, I'm not going to let him forget this later. And then when I'm, you know, I need to go back in my notes. I just type in his name and I'm like, here's all the stuff that he did last time

that I'm going to be like, well, well, well, well, guess what you did. Exactly. And so when you're keeping score, nobody wins. So I try and say this as simply as possible. One of the most successful ways that a relationship can thrive is by not keeping score. So when you catch yourself not being present, not listening to the other person's experience, because I'll tell you, no matter how bananas you think they are, that is their experience and that deserves validation. You validating it doesn't make it true for you, but you're allowing them to feel heard

and seen, even if it seems completely nutso to you. Because I tell Lucas actually a lot that I'm like, we'll be like on the phone talking about something that he thinks his feelings are stupid about like, well, that I don't know why I'm going on about this. And I'm like, your feelings are always justified. However you're feeling is how you're feeling, and that's OK. I understand you want to talk through it,

so you get on the other side of it. But sometimes I feel like, and I do it too, I've apologized for my feelings. I think just because I'm a sorry, yes person. Sorry, sorry, sorry. But I feel like that is really important, that your feelings are always justified. I guess my take on it, hesitation or anxiety I get sometimes is that I've worked

through so much on my own and thought through feelings and times when I'm feeling super weird or more emotional than I feel like I should like I'm out of my Zen. It is scarier for me to try to talk to someone about that stuff because I start thinking, am I going to say something, especially if I'm pursuing a relationship with someone that I'm going to bring something up that's going to potentially be shown as a red flag, something that might scare them off. And this anxiety starts to come in and it's like, can I talk about this or should I just not and just let it go, ride it out? Like that's kind of one of the big, I guess the big thing for me, if there's something

I, you know, if I'm in my head, like you said, I feel stupid about my feelings, right? It's because of that, I feel like I just need to work through this. I just need to work through this. So you've got a kind of a go it alone mindset, which could actually end up being a liability. But you also bring up a good point about timing. So and I think it's something we've talked about around anger. You're not gonna solve major relationship problems when you're in a state of anger about a particular situation. And all my clients have been like, wait, Heather, you actually want me to bring up

how crappy our sex life is when we're having an amazing night? I'm like, yes. It's crazy, but it's true. Because you don't wanna bring out a crappy sex life when you're having crappy sex, because it's way too hot. It's a hot button.

And imagine the ability to have a more productive conversation when you're in a good place and able to receive and share. Especially if you go about it the right way. It's communication. I mean, oh my God, communication, communication. Always communicating in a kind, gentle, loving, productive way, I think is like for me, what I'm learning, obviously, the reason we're asking you is because neither of us are...

We're not married, so we don't technically have a successful relationship at this point. Well, yeah, you made a destination there, though. Being married and getting divorced is not a successful relationship. Okay, fine. You know what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I do. And I also think, uh, this ties right back in. When you said timing, I did bring up to Kristen.

We kind of got in a fight because I believe I brought up a subject. There was all kinds of external things going on this day that we both tensions were kind of high, but not at each other. They just kind of rose to being at each other because of bringing up a difficult conversation. It was like midnight after a long day like that. And Kristen, do you remember me saying the next day that we should practice trying to bring this up in

the morning or a time when it's like when the previous day or all these stressors have been totally erased before anything else has come up to. Yeah. Well, that brings up another one of the tools that I teach, which is tabling. So this is my favorite one. Yeah. So tabling the conversation. They do this in what law they do in Congress or table that if things get too hot or you're coming in hot with other stuff on your mind or you don't feel that you're being productive in conversation and you have a foundation of trust and security, which you've worked hard to build. Let's just say you're super amped up and she comes at you about, I don't know,

a financial problem and you you're very self aware like, I'm not in a good space. I feel anxiety. I'm probably not at my best right now. You say, really great topic. We definitely need to talk about it, but I need to table it. And when you say table it, when you're the person that chooses to table it, the responsibility then lies on you, within 24 to 48 hours, whatever you decide,

to find a moment to re-engage. Kristin, I tabled that financial conversation last night. I'd like to talk with you about it now. Can you sit down? I mean, it's worked for me ever since I had that little tool in my toolkit, like it massive tool actually, like it's worked for me so well because it, and even if it's like in a dumb heated moment where it's like, we're going to agree to disagree right now. Like, and I feel like a lot of people don't like hearing that. Like, listen,

just agree to disagree because it still feels like I'm right. You're wrong. And it's unfinished. It's now it's unfinished business. But when it's like, listen, we're tabling the conversation. I do 24 hours because I think I'd go bat shit crazy if I had to wait two days to either talk about it or have the person come back to me. Cause I'm like, no, but 24 hours and now it is on me to come back to me. Because I'm like, now! But 24 hours, and now it is on me to come back to you and say, okay, thank you for letting me sort of let this go

in that moment, but now you had an important conversation that you wanted to talk to me about. I wasn't ready. Now I'm ready to hear you. And I'm going to shut up and listen. And we're going to talk it through, because now we're both calm. Right, and then the secret sauce is, and this is successful relationship,

unresolved issue that Kristin tables about financials. Can you still connect with him and laugh and giggle and have fun with the dogs and laugh when you drop the spaghetti and watch a fun show and stay connected knowing this is tabled? The whole relationship does not have to go on pause. In fact, you should seek comfort that the big issue is on the table over there. And can you still connect and join despite,

because a relationship is filled with despite, unfinished business. How do you treat each other in between while you don't have the resolve? That's the magic sauce. Yeah, not forgetting, again, your foundation, the bones of your relationship, why you're in love or why you're together or whatever it is. That makes me think of grudge holding.

So when you hold a grudge, you're hurting yourself is what it is. You're never affecting another person by holding a grudge. And some people get caught up in that. But my question, I guess, is with tabling, let's say emotions have already run high, right? Both people are starting to pop off and someone realizes it and maybe in less calm ways, says, just table it, just table it, put it aside. We're not talking about this anymore.

I'm curious on tools for de-escalation, like how you de-escalate when things are already fired up. I mean, your blood's pumping, you know, like fight or flight is happening and it's going to be a fight de-escalating. I don't think saying we're tabling it really can deescalate. It's like trying to just put it on ice and be like, forget about it. Let's get back to normal. I think it'd be very difficult to do what you just said to be able to treat each other like you normally do with the big thing aside if you started to pop off already. Okay. And so let me add to your question because I feel like something I was going to bring

up that that is a part of this is that I know a lot of people, a lot of my friends and family, even a lot of people believe that a healthy relationship equals no fighting. It's such a misunderstanding because it's about fighting fair. I know that. And like knowing that you're not disposable or the other person's not disposable. And I think I would love to, yeah, like in answering Luke's question also, but I think people don't understand that there's like styles of fighting, learning how to fight fair and not just if you get in an argument, it means you're not in love. It's not true. No, no, that is not a, that is not the only equation. And then how to, I guess, if I think if you learn to fight fair, it's easier to deescalate. But if you don't, you know, what are your thoughts on those?

Hey, everyone, it's easier to deescalate. But if you don't, you know, what are your thoughts on those? Hey everyone, it's Kristin Doty. I noticed my hair was thinning a bit more than usual, and honestly it shook my confidence. But I've been using NutriFold for a few months now, and let me tell you, I have seen a difference. Seriously. Less shedding, stronger strands, and my hair just feels healthier. I love NutriFold because it helps support my hair growth from the inside out. NutriFold is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's trusted by over 1 million people. And listen, we're all different right? Nutrifol gets that. They have formulas that target your hair's root causes like stress, hormones, and nutrition and adapt to whatever stage

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and free shipping when you go to Nutri-Full.com and enter the promo code DOTY. That's Nutri-Full.com promo code DOTY. Your hair will thank you. Well, to answer your question first, it's a really good question because if things get really heated, I think it goes back to knowing your buttons and knowing what self-care tools work for you. Do you need to just go take the dogs for a walk and do some deep breathing exercises? Do you need to pull out a journal? Do you need to go work out? Do you need to crack some jokes? Who are you and how do you take care of yourself when you're in distress? And when you're in that kind of distress, you're probably not

in the present moment. There's things flying forward from the past that are coloring your mood. There's anxieties about the future that show up. And so, again, it goes back to centering your own self and truly knowing you, which is, I think, one of the number one foundational components of a healthy relationship, is knowing who you are at the core, the big, the bad, and the ugly,

and being able to take responsibility for that and nurture that and heal those pieces. So, very, very good question. And it isn't anybody else's job to fix, and there's nothing wrong with getting triggered. You just be like, alright, I'm super triggered. I need to take care of myself. It's the best gift you can give yourself and the relationship.

That's a really good point, is like not to say, I have to figure out how to never be triggered again, or I have to figure out how to never get upset or angry or feel feelings essentially, but to say, these are my triggers triggers therefore I'm super aware of that communicate that and I think in a couple though you should yeah communicate it so that your partner is aware of those triggers and they can do what they can to try not to push those triggers you need to be aware when you're popping off and why you're popping off but if your partner has the same goals in mind for a successful relationship, both sides should be learning. Do you agree with

that? I agree 100%. And this is where trust and honesty are big foundations because when you get into a longer term intimate relationship and you start sharing kind of the underbelly of who you are, because we all show up as our perfect PR self, super glamorous, we're all together, we got it, we're funny. And then the other parts of us that are just as important show up. to pee ourselves, you know, super glamorous, we're all together, we got it, you know, we're funny, we're this, and you know, yes, and then, and then the other parts of us that are just as important show up.

And when you're trusting in your partner to say, hey, like, this is a real big issue, it goes back to a story with my dad, I wanna share it with you. You're putting a lot of trust in that person. And it's a very unhealthy move for that person to then, you know, quote unquote, use it against you, or retaliate with it, or not, not back up. That's, that's a trust unhealthy move for that person to then, you know, quote unquote, use it against you or retaliate with it or not back up.

That's a trust and honesty piece. And you're negotiating the level of trust and honesty and sharing as the relationship continues to move forward. Okay. Yeah, I totally get that. You go, oh, okay. I've got your eyes just lit up. Yeah, somewhere I really wanna go with this.

But before we get away from fighting fair, that you brought up, let's get on that. Well, I believe this 100%. Now, fighting viciously or abusively or dangerously or cruelly does not count. That is not the realm we're talking about. But again, going back to your two complete individuals with so many facets and so many depths and corners

and sweet spots that you're inevitably going to have arguments and Caring about somebody is inevitably gonna lead to arguments and upset my son plays d1 baseball now He's down in college and junior senior year. He's like god. The coaches are always yelling at me They're fucking yelling me all the time. They don't yell at that guy They don't yell at that guy and I literally found an article about it. It's like if the coaches stop yelling at you I yelled at that guy and I literally found an article about it. It's like, if the coaches stop yelling at you, they probably given up on you. I'm like, right, because they care. They want more. They want better. They're invested. And it's the same for a relationship. We know you can do this.

We believe in you. So pick your butt up and get going. So, so, you know, in a general sense, fighting, if it's fair, is, is care and compassion. Right? I mean, I'm leaving the whole abusive category off the table. Cause yeah, that doesn't count. Nate, which kind of, which we'll get into the four rules that we talked about in the beginning is like one of them is no name calling. Oh boy. Yeah, no name calling because how does that fucking help anything?

So I am going to devise, see looking at me, Luke, I'm going to divulge into something, a mistake that I made a big no, no, but I didn't. I'll say first and foremost, I'm not making excuses, but I did not in the moment. I did mean it as sort of an insult. And then later on, I kind of was like, it's kind of funny, right? So Luke and I a bit ago, like a few weeks back or something, we were out, we were out and about, we were in a public place and stepped outside to have a conversation because we, how do you want to word that?

Uh, just say we weren't seeing eye to eye. We weren't seeing eye to eye on something. So we stepped outside to have a conversation and I called him a whiny little bitch. Yep. Yep. Yep. And I didn't say it like, you know, fuck you, you're a whiny little bitch. But I was like, God, you're being a whiny little bitch right now or something like that. And it didn't go over well, clearly.

I mean, he didn't pop off at me, but we had eventually a conversation about it where he was like, I really didn't like that. And so I said, like, I'm pretty sarcastic. And I don't know, I dated someone we used to call each other idiots because it was like our cute funny thing. So I was like, well, what if you're like being annoying? And I just say, well, you're being a little bitch right now. And he immediately was like, no, I don't like that. He's like, essentially, he said that it made him feel that I was calling him like a pussy. I was taking away his masculinity and clearly not respecting him,

and it was hurtful. Yeah, the effect I said it would have on me is, if you're doing that and the feeling I get is like an emasculating feeling, it makes me less... It's gonna make me want to share maybe more sensitive things less with you, because it's like, am I being a little bitch? Am I being, you know... Am I being too soft? Right. Is that the filter that you see? Right. Right. And so-

When he's being so vulnerable with me and what I love about our friendship and our relationship is how vulnerable we both are with each other. And so I didn't even grasp that me saying those words was sending him into a completely different headspace. So I'm like, I will never say it again. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, you know, and I'm never going to say, fuck you. Like we say frog, we're trying to come up with like words when we're really mad. But then so no name calling is a big thing. But then I guess it's, if you have any tools to like, how do you communicate frustration or annoyance without being hurtful or disrespectful? I think it's just something people really need to grasp because it's very easy to pop off

at someone that you care about, but in the moment. For me, I'm like, when he said that, I just went, he goes, well, would you like it if I called you that? And I'm like, fuck no, like that would kill me. It would like rip apart my insides, so duh. Right, well, I mean, I think you handled it beautifully and you were feeling defensive, but you took a risk and were a little bit more vulnerable and said, this

is how it makes me feel and it's unacceptable. And the ripple effect, you very well articulated what the ripple effect would be, which is this will hamper our relationship, but my ability to feel safe and close with you. So, I mean, Kristen, it's up to you, continue. But the boundaries are really clear with him. It's like, it's not gonna fly. And so- I feel like in past relationships or even friendships I've had, if the same situation were to occur,

I said the exact same thing to someone, most people would then just be like, oh, so I'm a whiny bitch? Oh, and you're this or whatever, it could escalate. But because he worded it to me that way, I immediately felt his hurt. And what he did was he spoke from his experience,

like just his truth, which is such a common thing to say. But he really just spoke from what his truth was. And it didn't matter how you saw it. You're very clear about how you felt. And what the boundaries were. And what else you could do better. And it's up to you to listen to that and respect that boundary. I respect your boundary, Luke. I will never call you a little bitch ever again.

And then there's also, or anything like that, the whole trying to get away with it by like, Oh, I didn't say you were a whiny bitch. I said you were acting like one. Oh God. That is that it's in the same bucket. It's, it's no point. Makes me want to throw myself into traffic when people are like, I didn't call you a bitch. I just said you were acting like a bitch. I'm like, just don't say a bitch. Well, and also understanding our history.

Like I'm just thinking as we're sitting here, like I've popped off at my kids a couple of times and it literally like, it was like a backhand on my head. I'm like, oh my God, that's what my dad used to say when he was mad. You know, like we have to understand some of these things come from our past and how we were treated or whatever. My dad's fucking rock star,

but when he was pissed, he was pissed. And I would hear his words come out of my mouth in the next generation. That's gonna happen. But it's just owning. It's not just owning, it's repairing. Repairing. Because I'm a therapist.

I don't pretend I'm a great parent. I'm a mess like everybody else. We're just human. What I do know is important is when you make a mistake, how do you repair? Because that's what matters, right? Not an empty apology, actually doing something about it. Exactly. Exactly. How did you repair, by the way?

Yeah. What, with calling him that? I mean, it actually was yesterday. We had this talk yesterday. No, I just said, wasn't it yesterday or in the last couple of days? Last couple of days, yeah. And that he explained all of that to me. And I'm like, I just like, please know, like, I hate saying sorry, sorry, sorry, because I know it starts feeling empty at some point, but I'm like, it will not happen again.

I think that's when we were like, okay, so what do we do instead in those moments? Or how do we word things instead? But just the no name calling. It was really Dick, honestly talking about doing this podcast with you and making, taking our notes and kind of creating this outline. And one of the things I had written down originally was like, what did I say, Luke?

It was something like, like essentially if someone pops off and you do like, I was like, well, yeah, you're just gonna say stuff like that though sometimes. And he was like, no, I thought you said no name calling. I thought that was the rule. I thought that was the rule. Yeah, and I was like, oh, fuck, you're right. Okay.

Okay, so you're bringing up. So I was just working through my kind of the excuses I was making to get around it. Like, well, just in case, no, it's like, no, we're literally having this calm, loving conversation. And no, you're right. No name calling. End of fucking story. Right. You bring up a great tool that I don't know if it's in my top four, but it's a great one. And we've talked about this over and over again. What is non-negotiable? Oh yeah.

Because we make, we allow a lot of things to beable. And it actually makes our life a lot more complicated. So you think about like a recovering alcoholic, right? Let's say they have 11 months sober, but Thanksgiving's coming up. They're flying back to the Midwest. They're going to see cousin Bobby and Jane. They're going to be down in the basement shoot pool and ping pong like they did when they were kids and the beers are going to crack open. And this this newly sober guy is like,

well, you know, it is Thanksgiving and it is Bobby and Jane. And it's like, it's tradition. And, you know, I don't know, maybe. I mean, I can't say I won't. I can't say I will. Think about all the mental clutter and baggage and stress you put on yourself. Where if he just said, this isn't non-negotiable, I will not be drinking and I will not engage

in the making deals, right? With the possibilities. You're deciding in your relationship what's non-negotiable. If name calling is non-negotiable, then so be it. There really is, there is no work around. That's a lot of energy. That's a lot of energy, right? Totally.

Not worth it. It also comes from defending your spot, like where you were, or defending yourself and potentially leading to another fight. If you're like, well, no, I didn't, like you said, if you're like, I didn't say you are a whiny bitch. I said you're being a whiny bitch. Totally.

Same kind of thing. Well, I didn't really mean it. Well, I kind of meant it at the time. Yeah. You know, that sort of thing is like kind of trying to justify. When I said in the very beginning, I was like, I did. I didn't mean it. And I was like, well, in the moment I was being I was being an asshole to you.

You know, I was. Yeah. But then I had to tell him I was like, I don't think you're a little bitch and I don't think you're a pussy and I don't think I don't want you to not be vulnerable with me and like I had no idea that Yeah, and I told you that word would would bring those things up. So it's like well I wasn't super in my head like super down like you beat me down But I felt like it's definitely something that needed to be communicated that Over time if it was something that was consistent

I'm definitely not gonna be able to open up as much with you because it's like the in the back of your feelings. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're doing. We're not talking into a vacuum, ladies and gentlemen. It's all out there, boys and girls. Yeah. So that's cool. Okay. So we did no scorekeeping, no name calling, don't go to bed angry, like don't not sleep in the same bed, essentially like together. What's the fourth one? The one I want to talk about that is it's, it's kind of love language in that realm of knowing who your partner is. We love love language. Everyone loves a lot. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

But I think we often make mistakes by trying to give our love language to another and it's not theirs, right? Because it makes us feel good. And I always tell the story of the Italian mama who loves to cook a super rich Sunday night dinner with the Alfredo sauce and clams and the greasy meatballs. She's cooking all day and it smells so good and she's singing and she's happy and she's doing everything with love. And then she serves it to her 300 pound husband who has diabetes, high cholesterol, heart disease and hypertension. And she's like, eat, eat, eat. I made it for you. I love you. She's serving up her version of love that does not serve him at all.

Right. She's essentially killing him with her. Right. Right. And that's a very dramatic example, but we tend to do for others what makes us feel good. Right. So there's the two sides of love languages is the love language you like to receive and the love language you like to give. The way you show your love. The way you show your love. Right. Right. Yeah. And they're not always the same. And I in my experience, what I'm learning to I think this is again,

going back to the very beginning about just really being in tune with yourself, having joy, you know, loving yourself, knowing yourself, is like my love languages have changed. I never thought physical touch was a love language that I wanted to receive because I wasn't really in relationships that that was it. And I don't mean PDA. And now I'm like, oh, wow, I really do like sort of that acknowledgement, that validation of just like the hand holding or just like the touch of the shoulder.

Like very simple things make me feel seen and secure and secure. Safe. Yeah, those things. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's very important to like ask your partner. What do you think about the people that don't necessarily know themselves that well? Like what are steps you can take to know yourself if you haven't been in a relationship that you feel like you're really able to discover which ones you really like? Because Kristen even told me just a couple months ago how she didn't realize that she how much she loves physical touch. Because I didn't even know I did. Right. I just think I never really had

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So do you think that was just your maybe lack of awareness because you're always focused on the other person versus? Yeah, I think so. Well, that's where psychotherapy kind of comes in in terms of like examining the self, right? You know, what's the saying? A life left unexamined is not quite a life worth living, and I don't mean that in any suicidal way, but knowing who you are and knowing who you're evolving as.

And I just think there's a significant value in understanding your history and how it can have a real heavy hand in your present day life if you don't know what it is and how it has that ripple effect. You know, we mentioned trauma, I think, at the beginning. I think doing trauma work is such a powerful, powerful piece of work I do with clients, and it scares people because trauma is a scary word. But I can't really think of a time where someone that had the courage to do the trauma work

didn't emerge more healed, less held back, more free. And honestly, most people's pain and trauma ends up being like the true uplight of their gifts, what they're going to contribute next. There's usually a real strong link between the little traumas and the big traumas. And I define those separately. Like a big trauma is a six car pile up that you barely survived versus forgetting your lines in the third grade play and promising never to take a job that had public speaking for the rest of your life. That's a small trauma, but it does have a big ripple effect.

And understanding who you are, because I think our nature, without examining our life, is we just want to cut off all the bad parts, but I invite people to integrate them because the whole tapestry of who you are has shiny threads and darker threads, and some are a little threadbare, but it makes up the entirety of you.

And it's shadow side and light side work, but it makes up the entirety of you. And it's shadow side and light side work. It's knowing the darker parts of you so that they don't have so much power. You bring them into the light, it's like you're scared as a kid, right? The monster in the closet, it's huge. It's got teeth, it's frothing at the mouth.

And then your mom comes in and it's just a shoe. Right, you open the door with some courage. It takes some courage to open that door. And then you find out, it's just a shoe. And now I know how to manage the shoe. Right, I like that analogy a lot. I've got a specific to my life experience question about trauma.

So I kind of dove into a relationship years ago in my twenties, faster than I would being more mature and knowing myself better now. But anyway, it got off to a very rocky start because I feel like we dove into things a little too quick. We'll say this girl I was in this relationship with very early on, basically not in a safe heart to heart. Well, maybe she must've felt safe,

but she dumped a whole lot of childhood trauma on me. That was all, it felt like these are all the things I've been through and they're, and it's kind of your problem now is how I felt about it. And I feel like if you're in a relationship, you're committed to each other, you're a team, right? But how much of that is fair to ask of your partner? That's a really good question.

I think that there is a significant part of personal responsibility that has to come first. And you said you guys were young, and she probably had all this stuff rumbling, like fireballs, like, not even knowing what to do with it. Like, here, it hurts. You take it. I mean, I have compassion for her. But the work is, I mean, listen, the work is,

go sit down with a therapist and talk this stuff out because your partner should not be your therapist. And ill-equipped to handle whatever stuff she was sharing with you is probably way too much for the average bear. And you're tangled in an intimate relationship, so it's complicated. We can sit down with somebody that's completely unbiased, that is not in your world on a day-to-day basis. You're free to speak.

It's a total safe container. And you can work on these things. But again, it takes courage because it's easier to just keep dumping on the next person than dealing with it. It's a, it's a real powerful choice. I always tell my clients, the biggest thing you did was actually show up after you made the phone call appointment because a lot of people don't show up because it's easier to live with the pain they know and the unknown risk of healing or what might happen to your current relationship. So I'll tell my couples when they come in, guys,

this isn't a guarantee you're going to be closer together. There is a risk you need to understand. You actually may separate because of this. It's pushing yourself to grow and it's not always comfortable. Yep. Yes, it's terrifying. It is terrifying for a lot of people. I get it. That's why I say it up front. But do you want joy, you know?

Right, do you want joy? I mean, what I'm taking from this whole thing is, we say successful relationships, you know, defining relationships as in multiple people, right? And from what I'm gathering from Heather is, it's all that starts with yourself, though, because that's where you source your joy. And if you aren't what I would term, basically, like a whole person,

if you don't really know yourself, it's gonna make it really difficult to have a successful relationship. Would you agree with that? Yeah. I do agree with that? I do agree. And not as black and white as you're saying, but for simplicity sake, absolutely. We all have defects and deficits that we're not going to fill those gaps, but being consciously aware of them and being able to articulate when they show up or when they have a negative

play on a relationship is a responsible thing to do. Right. And having the tools that you help, you put in people's toolboxes so they can overcome these things and that they can effectively communicate instead of two weeks into a committed relationship saying oh by the way all this stuff happened to me when I was young all these things these happened last year I'm not over my grandfather passing away whatever it is something like that trauma and dumping it on someone like that you know is not a good way to do it if I I'm, yeah, I'm just, yeah, sorry. Reliving things. Yeah.

You're like, I'm in the trauma. It's a tr, well, listen, trauma is a big deal and it's not just for war veterans and you know, a lot of our core beliefs are based on traumatic events a lot. You know, most of our core beliefs are established before we're five years old, good, bad, and ugly. events a lot. You know, most of our core beliefs are established before we're five years old, good, bad and ugly. And so the reason that these negative beliefs around trauma are so huge, like a negative core belief, one of the common ones is I don't deserve love. That is gigantic. That was me, me, me, me for so many years. That's why I love therapy and working on myself.

Because I do. Right. But you can say it. You can stomp your foot when that shows up and go, I know I do. Yeah. And know it with certainty. I mean, here, yeah, like actually know it and not just say it. Right. So since we're talking tools, can I just give you another? Yes, because it is super easy for everyone listening to try at home. So we've talked about having conflicts, right? Right. Let's say you're having conflicts about the dog. Let's say you're having conflicts about your brother coming into town, whatever it is. Oftentimes when we argue or have a disagreement, we're looking at each other and we're personalizing

everything that gets transacted. And I do this with my husband often, probably not often enough, and he's actually a better leader at it than me. He remembers, because he likes this one. When there's a real big problem, we sit side by side, shoulder to shoulder, and we hold hands. And like I'm looking over at that little ottoman, we say, okay, here's the problem.

It's your brother coming into town. How are we going to handle it? And when you're shoulder to shoulder looking at the problem, you're tackling the problem together, and you're not making it personal stuff. Not staring at each other. Yeah, it's a physical shift between each person. Try and fight while you're holding hands. Try.

It's not going to work. It melts you. It's wonderful. Yeah, I just envisioned two boxers or UFC fighters squaring up. You know, when you're fighting, standing, looking at each other, you're squared up with each other. And so that does, I guess, probably activates that fight or flight more than if you're fighting, standing, looking at each other, you're squared up with each other. And so that does, I guess, probably activates that fight or flight more than if you're sitting not in that more

aggressive posture. Exactly. And you're focusing on the problem in front of you, not who caused it or why you're to blame or why you're bad or why you started it. You just, here's the problem. Let's solve the problem. Yeah.

Ooh, that's good. That is good. Do you want to get in a fight and then hold hands and then make up later with all that physical touch? Yeah, seriously. And speaking of that, another question that we had was, how important do you think sex intimacy is in a relationship? Obviously it's not everything, but I've been in plenty of relationships,

especially at the tail end where it's like, oh no, no, no, we haven't had sex in a month, or three months, or whatever it is. And I guess the frequency of that, whatever that looks like, intimacy or sex. Yeah, what do you consider healthy? I'm sure it's case by case, but a general parameters for

frequency of intimacy to stay connected with your partner. I won't give parameters because I think that's negotiated and this is one of the one of the biggest fighting points. Do you have sex once a week? And listen, everyone's built differently and different stressors, different sexual desires and drives, you know, often there's often the pursuer that resents being pursued and rejected. Then there's the one that does the rejecting that never has time to have her own or his own desire come up because the pursuer is always going. There's always rejection is the fucking worst when you're in a relationship. I had a relationship where it was like, I'm too tired. I'm stoned now.

I'm working. I'm this. I'm that. And eventually I went, I'm not going to fucking try anymore. Like now I'm so turned off and I don't even mean like, I'm not horny anymore. I'm not sexually turned. I'm like literally emotionally, mentally so turned off from trying and being rejected by the person that is supposed to.

We're supposed to be in love and we share life together. That I'm like, that's kind of that then, you know? Right. I mean, my baseline is intimacy is important. How you define it is different, too, because for some touching or just just oral sex or snuggling on the couch fulfills an intimacy need. But if the intimacy is exactly it doesn't have to be sex all the time. But then you just you're just roommates. I mean, really, sexual intimacy defines all other relationships.

So it is a very important piece. Yeah, glorified roommates. Guys read that chapter in my book? You can buy it on Amazon. He's making you crazy. But yeah, glorified roommates. No fun. Like I didn't sign up for a roommate. I signed up for a partner, for a teammate. I personally feel, I mean, Luke and I are both very sex driven, like intimate, like touchy type people in all of our relationships that we've ever talked about. And I know that some people just aren't and I think that's okay too, as long as yeah,

you kind of define that within your own relationship. But for me, it's just about connection. I need to feel connected in a different way to my partner than I do with my friends. Yeah. So no general parameters because like you said, everyone's different. They have different sex drives. So I guess how would you tackle if you're in a relationship where

you have two totally different, not completely on the other end of the spectrum, like an asexual person and a super hypersexual person, but on different ends of the spectrum, not all the way like say you get turned on a couple of times a month and your partner wants to have sex four or five times a week. Like navigating that seems incredibly difficult because with intimacy you got to be in the mood and if you can't get in the mood, I mean it just becomes, what does it become, a chore at that point? You know? Well I think language is important. I mean taking care of your partner when you're not necessarily in the mood is a really nice taking care of your partner. And're not necessarily in the mood is a really nice

taking care of your partner. And you might not have the need, but you can meet a need in different ways. I mean, it's not the same thing, but my brain immediately went to like, I really needed your help building this bookcase or whatever. I don't feel like helping with the bookcase, but you know that you can do it, you have the time, and you're helping your partner. It's kind of the same thing in, in a way, you know what I mean? But also, but also not saying to your partner like, well, I don't feel like it. So let's just like, fine, let's just do it anyway. Like just give in to the need once in a while.

Cause I've been very guilty of not wanting to have sex and then actually verbalizing because that's what I do and verbalizing like, fine, okay, let's just do it. Like, how does it make anyone feel happy? Like, great. Thanks, I'll pass. Yeah, but you are saying something about... It's all about you.

Well, it's about feeding the relationship. And I've had a couple of female clients that I'm thinking of, you know, and we've had a pretty intimate discussion about this where, you know, their sexual drive isn't there. And I'm thinking of, you know, and we've had a pretty intimate discussion about this where, you know, their sexual drive isn't there. And I know this is, you know, risky territory with, you know, women's sexuality and giving into sex. I'm not suggesting, you know, putting yourself in any jeopardy

or something that feels dangerous, but feeding a relationship, even if you don't get anything out of it in the moment, you're definitely getting something out of it after and the day, the hours after and the day after. Because you've, you've taken good care and that's, that fuels the good feelings and the good vibes in the relationship. Oh, that's totally true. Just communicate, right?

Communication, communication, communication, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. To kind of wrap this up to me, the biggest thing that I took from this was what I said earlier about focusing on the self because successful relationships, you know, like bringing all the analogies together when you square up to fight versus sitting beside each other. If you think about it as a teammate, but your teammate doesn't have to carry all the weight, you need to be responsible and know yourself well enough to communicate your problems and also be there and willing to learn and

help with your partners. Yeah, I mean, in learning. Oh, that's something I maybe we sort of touched on it, but I think learning from an argument you've Heather, you've always told me like there's literally no point in getting in even a disagreement, argument, fight, whatever you want to call it. If you're not learning something from it and applying it for an applying it Like, what was my trigger that made me pop off? Like, and I'm not blaming it on said trigger, but what was it that I did and how do I avoid that? And for my partner, did they have any responsibility

in the trigger at all? And let's communicate about that. So I think of both people learn, not just the person who started the fight. Right. Right? Absolutely. Because it's about growing. Right. Right. Absolutely. Because it's about growing. Yeah. And I was telling Luke about like the wet towel on the floor analogy.

It's my favorite one. Elaborate. OK. So I always say what towel on the floor, it could be anything. And I've been super guilty of this in the past. It could be the dishes in the sink. It could be didn't take the dog out, whatever it is, the stupid thing that turns into this massive fight. So I say like, ah, boyfriend, like you left the fucking, you know, you took a shower,

you left the wet towel on the floor. And if it's about the wet towel, then I'm gonna be like, dude, the wet towel on the floor, you know better, you left the toilet seat up. If it's really about that, no big deal. But if it makes you lose your shit, it's not about the wet towel on the floor. Never is.

You clearly have issues that you've been suppressing, that you've been like putting deep down into the fire pits of your stomach, not bringing up, you guys haven't resolved something. And therefore now you're, you literally are breaking up over the fucking towel on the floor. Right, it's a symbolic representation of something bigger and it's just safer to be mad at the towel

than say, I feel so untaken care of by you. Yeah. Right, like I feel you don't consider me. Yeah. Whatever it might be. So I think that that's like something that's really helped me in developing like healthier relationships.

Woo. That's great. Yeah, I love that. Oh my gosh, this has been, this has been perfection. I'm so happy. Luke, how do you feel having your first conversation with a therapist? Yeah, actually this is your first conversation. It's official. Yeah, you can't say you've never talked to a therapist before. I can't say that anymore.

I feel very enlightened and validated with some things, feelings and thoughts that I've had because this is all based off of reading and self-reflecting and these sort of things, the things I've come up with and picking things out of conversations with other people. I have friends that have been to couples therapy, you know, that were on the verge of divorce and saved their marriage. And when I've heard these things, there are certain things that stick out in my mind. And so I'm happy to hear that I remembered them right, at least anyway. Yeah, yeah.

Fantastic. Yeah. And then I definitely want to bring Heather back on because this wasn't necessarily the right time to talk about the entrepreneur... I can't say that word to say it, entrepreneurial disorder, Heather's book. But because Luke and I are both entrepreneurs, we definitely want to have you back on in discussing,

because this podcast is about like love, sex, what else matters, you know, relationships, like that's what our focus is, because we find it so important. But as two entrepreneurs, we want to talk to you another time about how do we word this Luke, help me out here. To talk about the difficulties and specifically ways we should probably ask some questions, get some emails submitted. Yeah, that's a good idea. But specifically when you know, one partner is an entrepreneur and the other isn't, how do you support them

when they have all these crazy hours, especially starting something up? That you're going to say crazy ideas. That too though. That too. Ideas too. But just I think navigating that space and all the different dynamics as far as if you are the entrepreneur, how do you make sure you recognize your partner when they're trying to give you support?

How do you give them support? Just because having started a business and knowing how- Startups, yeah. Like you've done this a lot. Yeah, it just is all consuming. And I've not done it successfully with a relationship going on. And so I think it seems like a very difficult thing

to navigate and I would love to hear your take on it in the future. Nothing would make me more excited than to come back and chat with you guys about this. And I wrote the entrepreneur disorder for the very reasons that you're speaking about. Entrepreneurs have this idea of having it all and they end up with nothing

because there's this like bought in idea in the entrepreneurial world that you have to sacrifice everything to have it all. And that doesn't even line up for me. And so when I speak about the entrepreneur disorder, I'm speaking about all the components that get neglected, cast aside, forgotten, dropped, remain unsupported. That it's my belief, because I'm looking for major impact here. The healthier the entrepreneur is, the more joyful they are.

Imagine the ripple effect because they're already doing amazing things for and with amazing people. And if they've got all their other components healed and in connection and relationship, imagine how much greater they'll soar. So that makes me really happy. And then I can imagine, you know, all my entrepreneurs, I mean, they love the talk. I'm not talking business with them. I'm talking joy. J-O-Y. I'm talking about complete life. So it's a great segue and a great questions.

And I'd love to come back and chat with you guys. Yeah. So yeah, we definitely need to. We'll talk for hours and hours. Super excited about that one. Heather, will you tell us more just about your sourcing joy? Sourcing joy. Yeah. Right. So I have that. I have a traditional psychotherapy practice in Los Angeles,

but I'm also a personal performance coach and I work with entrepreneurs all around the world. I do one-on-one coaching and I'm also part of a group called Bliss Champions, which does a kind of higher end, higher impact entrepreneurial programming and retreats. And I travel for those as well and really have been building Sourcing Joy for the last five years because there's just, in my opinion, no more magical, amazing human being who if they can kind of get out of their own way and their habits will be find so much peace to go with their success. They will be alive to enjoy their success. They will stop seeking having it all and realizing they have it all right now.

And that is why I started this podcast, you guys, is why I pulled this trigger because I had been wanting to do a podcast for a year. And obviously we all know that I was canceled and it was like a lot of trauma for me. I thought people didn't want to hear from me anymore, but I knew that this was something I was really passionate about. And because of Heather and being my coach and sourcing joy I'm like why the fuck am I not just pulling the trigger why am I not just doing it it makes me so happy I'm like thriving now I have the equipment just record the damn podcast and I did and here we are so got it up and rolling Heather tell

listeners where they can find you they can find me at sourcing joy LLC calm they can email me at Heather at sourcingjoyllc.com. They can email me at Heather at sourcingjoyllc.com. And Instagram. And Instagram is Sourcing Joy Heather. It's pretty easy. Heather and Sourcing Joy. So everyone follow Heather, get her book, Entrepreneurial Disorder, Heather, Heather Frankovich. You can get it on Amazon. So stay tuned for our next episode with Heather,

but thank you so much for being here. Everyone's going to freak out and you guys email us, comment, So stay tuned for our next episode with Heather. But thank you so much for being here. Everyone's going to freak out and you guys email us, comment, send us any questions you have for her regarding the entrepreneurial disorder, look up her book and we can answer all your questions next time. Yeah. Thanks for coming Heather. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. Peace guys. Okay, wait, hold on a second. I'm actually not ready to be done with this episode. You aren't ready? No. Prouse. I have something else to say. You guys, I did Lala's podcast that is also coming out today. And I spilled a little bit of tea that Luke and I have not spilled yet on our podcast.

Mm-hmm. I think I know what you're talking about. I have a big mouth. Mm-hmm. I couldn't help myself. Okay. Do you want to say it? Do you want me to say it?

I wasn't on Lala's podcast, so you go ahead. So tune in next week to our podcast and definitely tune in today, Wednesday, to Lala's podcast because I know like, da, da, da, da, shocking. Luke and I might be like seeing each other like as more than friends and co-hosts. Yeah, we're dating.

I don't think it surprises, I don't think it surprises anyone. So I'm gonna say that because everyone's thinking it, everyone's feeling it and we haven't been upfront. Well, also to be honest, this has been a big process. We've been recording for months, and it's finally out. Things have progressed over that time. We weren't lying.

We weren't lying. No, definitely weren't. Now it's just, it's time to come out with it. It just wasn't. We weren't even there yet in the beginning when we were recording. And then, honestly, I like to keep some things to myself, and I wanted to like figure out what the fuck we were doing until we discussed it. So let's discuss it next week. Next week, tune in fully.

Let's go hard because we're going to be on a road trip together for a really long time. Super long 30 hour drive to Indiana from Los Angeles. So yeah, tune in. We're going to catch you up on everything. We're going to be real like call a spade a spade. And yes, Luke and I are dating. We're seeing each other. It's all happening.

That's the truth. OK. We love you guys. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Bye. Make sure to follow us on social media. You can follow me on all platforms at Kristen Doty

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