Sex, Love, and What Else Matters - Foreplay with Dr. Laurie Watson and George Faller

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Episode 43. This week, Kristen and Luke are joined by Sex Therapist Dr. Laurie Watson and Couples’ Therapist George Faller, who are also hosts of Foreplay Radio - Couples and Sex Therapy! Kristen and Luke get vulnerable while Laurie and George give tips for knocking down roadblocks both emotionally and sexually. They also break down the “pursuer” vs. the “withdrawer” (& what gender has to do with it!), and they give Kristen, Luke and the listeners insight to resolving the emotional vs. sexual tangle almost all couples experience. Sponsors: Right now LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any purchase, That’s 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/DOUTE.  Visit BetterHelp dot com slash DOUTE today to get 10% off your first month. Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/KRISTEN. If you use my personal code DOUTE15, you can get your bottle now for 15% off and start getting that life changing, ready to wake up and kick ass sleep that you deserve. Go to butlerhemp.co to grab yours now. Follow us: @kristendoute @luke__broderick Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi you guys, I'm Kat and I hope you come hang out with me on KatSatlerNow. On my weekly podcast, I continue to ask the questions. I've been interviewing people for more than 25 years now, but that doesn't mean I found all the answers. Make sure to listen to KatSatlerNow, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello beautiful people, welcome back to another episode of Sex Love and What All Smatters for Cuff Loop. Hey, Kristen. We are very, very stoked today to just drill our two guests with questions.

We have hosts of four play radio couples and sex therapy. And we have it's Dr. Laurie Watson. She's a certified sex therapist and George Fawler, who is a couples therapist. Did I screw any of that up with your titles? And then Laurie, do you want us to call you Dr. Lori? Now you just call me Lori. That'd be great. I always ask them, like if you work that hard to get that title, I don't want to disrespect.

You know what I mean? She makes me call a doctor though. What's up? Yeah. First and foremost, where are you guys from? George, you have a nice little, Boston. I'm from New York. Oh, New York, nice little accent have a nice little, it Boston. I'm from New York. Oh, New York, nice little accent.

Laurie, where are you from? I'm from North Carolina. Oh my God, you guys are the cutest little things. You know, Laurie's actually my mom's name. So can I just call you mom? I'll do it. Yes, so let's talk about status. Call me mommy.

Oh, no. No therapist wants to talk about moms today. If it's not one thing, it's your mother. Yeah, right. Okay, so we, Luke and I just have like a million questions obviously on our podcast. We talk about relationships. We talk about all the ins and outs of sex, about love. My personal, like why I started our podcast was just the whole

psychology between like the difference between men and women and why they do what they do, why they feel what they feel, and when we were kind of going over questions that we wanted to talk to you guys about and Lori the email that you had shared with us about like emotionally and sexually and the difference between you know men and women. My first question for you, just to knock the science part out of the way that I'm curious about, is far as sex drive is concerned? Is that a thing at all of science, like biology, like the nature of men versus women? Oh, yeah.

So, kind of our hunger for sex comes from our physiological hunger, comes from testosterone, and men have gobs more than women. So, like, way more, sometimes 10 to 100 times more than women. So, in terms of being a man, you kind of feel that push towards sex in your body, whereas women, maybe we feel it when we're younger, but mostly we feel it because we're fantasizing about sex and thinking about sex and imagining the next moment. So it's really, I think in women, the sex drive comes from the mind and our fantasies and our imagination, but in men, most often sex drive comes in their body. So it is really different.

Yes, we're like different species. I mean, I connect with that so hard What do you want to jump in? Yeah, get this physical this very strong physical urge, you know That's and then how much of it do you think is like a nature versus nurture type of a thing? I don't know if it's like experiences you've had or the way you were raised or I don't know of anything like that, what are your thoughts on that?

That's the psychogenic piece, right? So if you've had bad experiences around sex, that starts to train your body to override even some of the biology. So it will work with a lot of couples who the man who would normally pursue sex has had a lot of, who the man who would normally pursue sex has had a lot of, maybe they have ED or something doesn't work, or they came up a strict upbringing

and all of a sudden they start to repress that part of themselves. And maybe the woman is really developed initiating and fantasizing. And so they can reverse roles. Right. So, we're always trying to look at both of those factors. What's the physiological part and what's the psychogenic? Okay. That makes sense. I just, I really connected so much to the fact that like, well, as you said, obviously like men are very like, it's like the body-driven women are like in the mind. So for me,

I'll just speak, well, Luke and I are going to speak from like our very own like personal experience in our relationship. So I'm 40, Luke is 32, first and foremost. And for me. Exactly. Exactly. And for me. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. me, this is something a trap that I know specifically Luke and I can fall into are like outside stressors. When I have outside stressors, work, stuff, my dogs, projects to complete, I cannot even fathom the thought of having sex. I'm just like, I'm focused, focused, I'm not

excited about it, has nothing to do with him, has nothing to do with me not wanting to like actually have sex with him. It's just, my brain doesn't let me go there, where Luke, when he's super stressed out, that's all he wants to do. Not like all the time, but like, you know what I mean. But no, it's like, this would help me like focus. It'll help you de-stress. It'll help you de-stress. It'll help you de-stress.

It's a release versus like this, you know, I don't feel disconnected with you. Like, we have to do this for ourselves emotionally, but I'm like, it would be a nice release to get my head straight again. Right, exactly. Yeah, and I think for you, Kristen, I mean, obviously, when you're distracted, that part of you that might be thinking about sex is not online, and that's not necessarily a de-stresser

for you, but Luke, it makes a lot of sense to me that for you, because of testosterone, and also testosterone gives you kind of a focus. So that would help you get back online to have that release and do that. What happens if one of you rejects each other? What do you do? So we haven't really run into the rejection as an issue.

It was with promising later and not following through. It's like, he's already out. It's like later, I promise. And then later comes and it's like, I still can't, I can't, I can't. And then it drags on. It isn't a shutdown because I've even told you. I'll take no better than a promise that doesn't follow through. Like just say no.

So it's off my mind. Yeah, that's something we've, as soon as I finish this and then you finish that and I'm like, okay, let's go. And you're like, really right now later. And I'm like, okay, okay. It's something we've talked to my therapist about just like kind of, not for fun. But like, kind of we were just like, oh, can we pick your brain about this a little bit? And she was like, well, yeah, I mean, if you're constantly over promising under delivering, it feels like the same way it feels to feels to be lied to. And I'm like, but I'm not lying.

I had the intention there, but she's like, it's still on that level. So that is something an issue that we run into at times. We help couples try to differentiate between identifying their guest pedals and their brakes. So what you're describing is a break. It's if you're distracted and you just can't get into the mood. You still are attracted. Your guest pedals find your desire is there. It's just you got to find ways of freeing up those brakes. But a lot of women think because of the brakes, they have a desire problem that they don't want sex and over time they start to blame

themselves and put more pressure. So I think it is really helpful to be able to talk about both of us. Okay, so I don't have a desire problem, as what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Because obviously, even in those moments, there are times where it's like, we do something for your partner. And I'm like, okay, yes, let's do a quick year,

let's whatever. And it's always a great idea when it's done. I know that. I'm like, yep, that was a good idea. Good job. But yeah, it is something that I definitely struggle with. I have friends that struggle with it the same. Yeah, I wanted to bring up this other friend of mine.

And I was thinking about it today when I was thinking about all of my stressors. So I have a girlfriend who is Mary. She's a couple years younger than me. She was on her podcast one time and said that her husband now is the first man she's ever had an orgasm with, which totally blew my mind. And they have a toddler and they're very, very busy and they have a show and a podcast and listen to that and all these things, but they have sex like bunnies. And I'm like, how does that not affect her the way that it affects me?

And the age difference is very similar. And I'm like, she has way more stressors than I do. She has a toddler for fuck's sake, you know? So I'm just curious what your thoughts were. Not like, I know we're not all the same, but of course I'm gonna compare. So she just had her first orgasm. Yeah, like in the last couple few years, like, to the person she's married to.

I mean, I think that a lot of women and a lot of men, if they're not having orgasms, they believe that it comes from sexual intercourse, right? That that's the way. That's what the movie show, that's what porn shows. But only about 15% of all women have orgasms through sexual intercourse. They need literal stimulation. And so maybe I think what happens, that would have made your friend about 38 or 37, 38. And that's about the age that most women feel comfortable starting to ask for what they

want. It's like, you know what, you need to touch there a little bit. And so maybe that's why she got comfortable enough with her husband and she was able to tell him, hey, this is what I really want and good for her. Yeah, no, I'm very happy for her for sure. But it's very, I think it's easy to compare ourselves to like people are age in our front. The frequency is what you're comparing yourself to.

That's the reason why we, I decided to join this podcast. When I found that statistic, that only 15% of women orgasm thrown into course I was like how is that possible how am I like Joe Biden should come on the into the merrigan announced this because every man thinks they're failing if they're who's not having the orgasm every woman thinks there's something wrong with them and it's just like this that basic stats out there that can help a lot take some pressure off all of us. That took really good point. I don't think, I mean, I'm, Luke and I are kind of aware of this obviously because we've been asking questions,

we have this platform to do so, but prior to that, like, I wasn't totally aware of that. He's Kristen's gifted. I'm very gifted in that. Nice to be in that 15 percent, right? Yeah, 15 percent. Yeah, it% right? Yeah, 15%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she gets more than I do. So I don't know.

I just any advice I think you guys would have on what we were talking about the emotional and the sexual, like, emotionally and sexually. And then what you said when we were talking, or emailing prior, was like when those two get tangled, is when it really becomes the issue, right? And then kind of teaching couples or people how to untangle. So what are some tips, suggestions, you know, anything you can both give us would be greatly

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Relationships get into a particular pattern and we all struggle with this pattern. And that's one person, you know, kind of pushes for more talking and sharing and time together. And the other one maybe feels a little more need for autonomy. They back up a little bit than the person who pushes. Eventually gets a little louder, a little more critical. You know, you're not spending time with me. What's wrong? The other person is like, wow, you're trying to control me, you're trying to, you know, and feels like they need to back up further, which triggers the person who is pushing and says, okay, now there's something really wrong, so they get more angry, and then the other person eventually shuts down. That's kind of the end state, and that's emotionally, and same sort of thing happens sexually, but often

in heterosexual couples, it's kind of gender-reverse. So the woman is usually the one who wants more closeness emotionally and wants to connect that way. But the man is like, hey, look at my body. I feel love and connection in my body. It's not that I just want sex. It's like I want you.

And so he pushes for sex and that kind of connection. And she's like, wait, I need to have connection before I can, you know, feel sexual. And so they get all twisted up in that. He gets angry like, you know, you're with holding, you don't get me, you know, what's wrong with you? Why don't you like sex? And she's like, well, I do like sex, but I just don't want sex now. And the more he asks, the more she wants to shut down. And then these two systems kind of get into a knot. So one is pushing one way and the other is pushing the other way. And they're not, they're one of them are getting what they need. Yeah. So is there ever the possibility of figuring out how to, I guess, chill and talk and

figure it out before the two get so tangled up that you have to untangle that knot, or is it learning how to untangle it, or both? Yeah, that's the ability to repair. That's the only thing that separates master couples from disaster couples. It's that ability to notice the cycle taken shape and you could have a conversation

and that bridges the distance and comes back together. So usually the person who's critical can recognize, hey, I'm being critical again, I'm sorry. I so want you to listen. Like I may be able to come across to intense or the person who walks away is like, listen, I'm sorry, I walked away. I just like, I didn't want to make things worse. I felt myself got to get all worked up. So I tried to calm down, but I know that doesn't work so well for you. So couples, the good news, it's the same moves over and over again. Right? So when you learn to recognize and you can, it becomes easy and easy to repair. It might not stop some of the fights, but it makes it a lot easier afterwards.

So you're saying basically with this emotional and physical thing, it's usually separate people, right? You ever have it where one partner in the couple is the one that desires sex and also doesn't feel like they are getting attention, like they're being pushed to the side and being like last priority type thing. That has both. You're saying from the same gender? Yeah, I say I'm both an emotional and sexual pursuer.

In my marriage, I'm both. I want more sex and I want more connection in terms of emotionally. And my husband is also sort of more withdrawn. He withdraws sexually and withdraws emotionally. It doesn't mean that he doesn't like sex, but God, but it becomes very intense for him and especially when he feels disconnected, you know, so yes, it isn't always Chris Cross. Sometimes it's the same. So are you more the same year about the emotional and sexual pursuer Luke? So yeah, that'd be me actually because I, so we do distance. We can tell you we're asking for a friend.

Yeah, we do distance at times. I live in Colorado, but I come here for this and for her. And, you know, sometimes when we're there, Kristen gets a little caught up in her social life and puts off things that are maybe important to me and we haven't caught up in days and I'm like, hey, can you make some time for me tonight and it doesn't happen sometimes. And so then I'm pushing for an emotional and then when we're here, I feel like I'm the sexual pursuer.

So I feel like I'm both of those. At times. At times, not always, yeah. like I'm on both of those at times. At times, not always. Yeah. But when we run into those snags without it, it's not bad. Like we haven't gotten to the point where it's in a nod or like we're on the brink of splitting or anything. Yeah, it's a thing to the day. I think, I mean, I'm George McHarris, if you agree with this, but just like communication, A number one, that's for us anyway. Like, I mean, we get, you know it's like, we'll get into arguments, sometimes it's on the phone, sometimes it's in person, and luckily,

we're both very cool with like, tabling conversations and not throwing tantrums about the other one wanting to do so, because we both know that that is the healthiest thing for us, is like, I'm not listening right now to you really, like I'm not hearing you, I'm not picking up what you're putting down, And I'm getting frustrated. So like neither of us are gonna get

what we want out of this conversation. And sometimes it's even just like for an hour, you know, just to table that conversation. But. Just a little time out. Yeah, just the communication. So that's why I think we're good thus far it. Not hitting that knot.

Yeah. And not so well with trying to get couples to be prepared for it, because when you try to come up with a solution when it's happening, it's too late. You already got to be thinking about this. And every couple wants to be a good communicator. But most of us don't grow up in families where we see how to do this.

What we're talking about is when there's a threat, we either have that attack fight response, we mobilize, or we try to call it that. And either have that attack fight response. We mobilize or we try to combat that. We all do some of both, but a lot of us tend to fall more in one category than the other. So you know, both of you can play it calm and you don't see the value in fighting and hurting each other. So you both kind of relax a little bit, right? But sometimes it gets harder over time is, you know, your resentment starts to build.

It gets harder and harder. Not poke at that person. And I'm like, why won't you read this book? And why won't you listen to this podcast? Like, it would really help. And then that will lend his criticism. And then the other person kind of gets mad back. And before you know it, they're lost on the surface of all the stuff, the words they're

fighting over. But underneath it's the same emotional state. You feel disconnected. You feel not heard, not listened to, you feel rejected or criticized. And that's what a lot of us don't get help talking about. And really that's the key. Can you talk what we call that low-road conversation?

Can you talk to each other about your struggles, your insecurities, your vulnerabilities? Couples that can do that really do have the strongest bonds. And a lot of couples don't know how to do that because we've never seen that role model to us. And that's how you become the master couple, not the disaster couple. I love that. Oh my god. But I think you're asking too, is are there things that we can know? Now that we know there is a cycle that might become in for us, are there things that we can know and become intentional about so that we don't get tied up in the knot?

And I would say absolutely yes. So, the pursuer person actually needs to learn to not become angry, but to be direct. This is what I need. And actually, pursuer is Luke, I'm with you, buddy, on this one. We need to learn to accept no and not personalize it.

Not feel like it's a rejection of us, but it might just be a rejection of the time. And I think with drawers need to, you know, learn to nurture and to come forward and to initiate. You know, maybe there are times that you don't feel, you know, desire and so you're sort of in that responsive place. I'm just responding to my partner's initiation. But at other times, maybe it hits you.

And then really coming forward and initiating is very deeply reassuring. And this is going to sound funny, but a withdraw needs to say no directly. And that's exactly what you guys said in the very beginning. Don't say later, say no, because then our brains will turn off. Okay, it's not. And then if you get horny later and you come back and you're like, Hey, you know, I have a little bit of energy. That's good news. And I become like the initiator. But if you say later and then then you're not into it, that's really bad news, because you did make that promise. And if you say later, and then you are into it, it's not that big a deal.

It's like, yeah, well, you already said that, but just say no, and then see how you feel later. Actually in a fight, been before, because Kristen's been like, I'm afraid to say no to you. I'm like, no, you're not. And you just try it. Say no, don't say later. I promise you I can handle it.

Just don't keep kicking the can down the road, be like, at this point, at this point, no wait next time, at this point, and just be like, just say no. And I'll be like, cool, out of my mind, out of the next thing. That's fantastic advice. Yeah, because it is, when I say scared to say no,

and I don't mean like, oh, he's gonna lock me in the closet and put a sandwich under the door, and that's it. I don't mean that. I'm not scared of him, but I don't want to hurt his feelings and I don't want to reject him because I've been in a relationship where I was a major pursuer and I was rejected constantly to the point that I didn't want to try anymore. It was just like, womp, womp, you know,

everything had burned down by that point. So I do know what it feels like to like feel that sense of rejection, but Lori, I like that you said for the pursuer not to personalize it, that it's like not about you and not to think, oh, she doesn't, he or she, like, they don't love me, they don't care about me, they're not attracted to me or whatever it could be. I think it's also really important. It's so critical, you said, we're trying to depersonalize it. Both partners have to be friendly other persons move, right? Like the person who's angry actually has a beautiful intent. They're trying to

highlight the problem. They're trying to create change, right? They're trying to bridge the distance in a relationship. The person who's trying to disengage is just trying to create safety. They don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. I mean, both people are doing such love in acts. They just don't jive together, right? And when you start to help both partners see that, it takes a lot of this steam out of the, you know, the, the reactivity. Yeah, I love that. I've got another question though that kind of comes into play along with sex drive is how medications interact with that because we've touched on it, neither of us are doctors or therapists, but we had it brought up that both of us have had friends or family that have had been

on medication and so forth. Well, and I myself, as I said before we started recording, but I'm very open about everything. And I'm on an SSRI and I'm on Adderall. So I always wondered, the lexipro is something newer for me in the last couple of years. But I always did wonder if that had any effect. Sure. Or maybe it's just my age. I don't know.

No, I would not say it 40, it's your age at all, no way. Okay. But I think an SSRI really, really all of them, I know doctors will say, well, this one's a little bit better than that one in terms of not impacting you sexually. But in my experience, SSRIs are kind of really problematic for especially for libido. It just depresses your sense of desire

and also it makes orgasm harder. It makes it harder to get there for a lot of people. One thing that we give men, we give men, sometimes in SSRI when they have premature ejaculation because it slows down their ejaculation. You know, it slows down when they come, how fast they come. So it does actually do that. And I would say, I mean, there's tons of medications that are problematic sexually,

but the other big one is blood pressure meds because an erection is a hydraulic event. And if you lower blood pressure, you are lowering the hydraulics and all of them impact a man's erection It doesn't do as much for a woman. It's not as problematic that for a man It really is problematic. So he may need Viagra along with it So many of my past relationships are making so much sense right now just knowing those little things making so much sense right now, just knowing those little things. Exactly. So, I mean, it is helpful to know, though, like not to like weaponize, like, well, I'm on this and this and therefore you need to be more understanding, but just having the where

with all, like in your own mind to know that could be part of it, rather than me saying, like, what I'm 40 now, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, we'll ever get it back. I have this young strapping boyfriend, you know, it like, what am I gonna do? I just think it's really helpful to know all of these things about medication, the science, the biology of it all,

on top of like what we do have some control over, and the choices that we make in the way that we respond. And I think with an SSRI because orgasm is a little more difficult, I really recommend a vibrator, you know, because that intense stimulation. I have a whole drawer full. I didn't hear you, but you say, I said, I have a whole drawer full.

Oh, good. Well, you're a good girl. We call that research time when you get the toys out. It's research for the podcast. A lot of men face this similar challenge when they get older, because they're so dependent on testosterone. When testosterone starts to dip, they

don't really know what else to do. And that's what they develop a lot of struggles. But it really is an opportunity to kind of engage in other areas, like develop more of their fantasy, develop more of the, they get more in their body, being, you know, more focused on the emotional connection. That's the good news about sex. There's so many doorways in that could make it better. So if it's starting to get flat, you know, it's just not the hormones, there are other things we can do, we're not victims who are hormones that can kind of keep us engaged and keep spicing it up. Because there's so much great research on, you know, couples have been together a long

time that still can have amazing sex, you know, and that's what they're doing there today. You know, they're bringing in all these different elements to kind of spice up that engagement. And so what other, I guess, examples of like, doors, but I like that you said, like, for what you and Lori both said in the beginning Sorry, it was about women being the ones typically to be the Sexes in our brain right where the sex is in the man's body, but the women are the fantasizing ones blah blah blah I totally agree with that Is that something like a man would have to like work on?

Harder I guess is that I don't know if I'm wording the question correctly But something that would take them like a little bit more work to achieve. Yeah. We use the acronym best for best sex. Focus in on be your body, be your emotions, esch your spirit, and till you're thinking brain, right? So all four of those elements you could bring into sex and great love is bring all four of them in. Most of us crop only relying on one of them. So when one of them starts to peter out a little bit, it's time they really start to

kind of lean into these other areas. I do a lot of work with men and they're pretty disconnected from their bodies. They're pretty disconnected from their emotions. You know, sex is an act, it's a performance, it's a stress relief. It's all these great things. But as they learn, it can be even more than that. There's something about intimacy and vulnerability and kind of feeling your skin and your heels on the bed.

Like all these dates can be, you know, can really help you engage more. Yeah, so I guess what if you had like, I don't know, just two pieces of advice that you would give to a guy that is like the testosterone-driven man who's like, oh, that's sex is all about my penis and my body and blah, blah, blah. And if you were trying to open his mind up to connection.

I just feel like I know a lot of dudes and I can feel, all right, like hear them saying, like, what, I don't know, just being like, it's not manly to do that. It's like not bro, like, do saying like what like I don't know just being like it's not manly to do that or it's like not bro like do you know what I mean so like how do you break that wall down with a guy that is most of the people I was a firefighter in New York City for 21 years all I do is work with the military you know you could have great porno sex said like that's really cool that's part of being a man too. But this is

about expanding, even have more options. So four plays isn't just something for your partner. Four plays can be something pretty cool for you. You allow yourself to get a massage. Great lovers are relaxed, not so tense, not so pushing so much. I think when men start to play with that, they can push it certain times, I can relax it certain times. It just again, it increases those levels of engagement. Learning to ask can be vulnerable for different stimulation. You know, so many men, their body works, they don't really need so much, but as they age or, you know, have different issues, it's like they need to learn to be vulnerable about, and I need this. And I think maybe looking at each other

and talking to each other while you're having sex so that it becomes very personal. That's really a vulnerable thing. Because so many of us, we just close our eyes and pull inside to our bodies. And we don't necessarily engage with our partner. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. And that's why a lot of men, young men today are having a lot of

problems. They're so focused on their penis and performance and the stimulation that they're disconnected from their bodies, their heart. And then before you know, you're 21 years old and you can't maintain an erection. It's hard to be intimate. It's hard to be in a relationship. Their brains use the pornography. They don't really know what to do in real life with a person they love. So, all men listen up. This is coming from a really manly man who is telling you this, okay? I have my man come up and say it anyway. I grew up with a dad who said, if he saw me crying,

he'd give me something to cry about. So, you know, this is, you can, you can turn off your emotions and take care of business and be a badass and still know how to kind of turn them on when it's better for you and your partner. I think it's an unbolts scenario. I love that. That's really beautiful, George.

Thank you. In that same realm though, so I'll just speak personally. Sometimes when we're having sex, unless we're like, this is good, we're gonna have a night of it, which happens not super often, but it's wonderful. But I've noticed I'm not as of late,

really into four play and I'm just like, let's just do it, let's just do it. Oh, we'll try. I had that question too. She's like, get down to it and I'm like, I mean, can't we build it up a little bit? And like we just get down to business. I mean, I'm like, okay, fine, let's do it. But definitely, that was a question I have down as far as like skipping four play and that becoming a habit and like how

that's something that can become detrimental over time, turning it into this, you know, maybe prioritizing quickies and that's your sex life versus taking the time to be intimate, to increase the stimulation, to really get yourself fired up and to, you know, kind of fight the desire to jump to that point and just let it keep building, right? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think, you know, if you're one of that 15% get into the good stuff is great, right? You're gonna get the good stuff. So you're very confident in your body's ability

to climax and that's awesome. And maybe it's Thursday night. That's why most men push so fast for the intercourse because they want that same day. Right. It's awesome. But anyway. And Luke's over here going like, but I like for play.

Like let's, you know. I like the, the, all of it. I love the connection. I love just being naked together. Like, I like just, I mean, all the time, I'm like touchin' her when we're sittin' here. I just like, just go on that. Yeah, you're a physical touch, like,

love language. Yeah. I mean, I think that there is something that, you know, we learn in a relationship to give each other what we need. You know, Thursday night, a quickie is so great. Because you're connected, you're relieved. It's wonderful.

But maybe on Saturday morning is the time that you take an hour. And you do some of that affection and cuddling in more a four-play, so that your partner also feels that deep sense of, now I got all my touch needs, all my sex needs met. You know, but I get it. I think there's, you know, you guys are a little bit gendered reversed in terms of how you operate, and it's just now a matter of how do you find time

for both of them, and, you know, so that it doesn't become one pattern. I think that, George, you say this, and I like it when you say it, like, what is it the, there's nothing worse than doing the same thing relentlessly. Right. Relentlessly. The same thing that doesn't work relentlessly. Well, it works at one point. And that because it works, we want to keep doing it.

But when we just keep doing it over and over again, it loses. It's in that, right? But I think to be curious around what is it around about four play that isn't kind of getting you so far. Or is it because you got a lot on your plate and you want to get to everything else? I mean, it's trying to understand what's getting in the way, right? Because that's just a break.

Yeah, it's my brain. It's my brain that gets in my way always. I think for women a lot of times, they really don't prioritize pleasure. They don't give themselves that space to relax and have something luxurious. They're like, I earn my value with productivity. Just being loved and receiving touch and being petted and all of that,

they don't give space for that because that's not how they find their value. That's not how they were raised. Mm-hmm, that is a very good point that I learned and therapy about myself only over the last like couple of years was I associate happiness with success. And so therefore it's like I'm joyful if productivity if like that's finished and that's done and all of these ducks are in a row and it makes it at times a little more difficult to just sort of let go. You know what I mean?

And just to be. It's interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, and it wasn't always like that. I think it's also like a matter of the time and I don't think this is like a forever me that doesn't want for play.

Hell no. I'll drop everything and start figuring it out Luke. I'm just kidding. Well, here we got time after this. Also, I wanted to ask, so what are some of the other like, maybe some of the most common issues that couples have come, like specifically like couples have come to either of you with. Is it always sex? Well, we're both, I'm a sex therapist, but we're actually both couples therapists. So we do tons of couples therapy. But is it, I guess what I mean is it always like a lack thereof,

like one person's missing this, they want sex more in this person doesn't, or are there any other common themed issues? Well sexual discrepancies happens in 90% of couples, so that's just everyone on this planet, one person wants it more than the other, right? That's why you need to build a talk about it, but certainly it's not the only issue sex. I mean, it's basically communication. Whatever you're talking about, it could be the kids, it could be money, it could be fame, right? A lot of times how you talk about it, you're not on the same page. And then when you're not on the same page, that's a threat for the relationship. And then both people start to protect themselves from not being on the same page, and it starts to create more distance.

And for couples that can't repair, eventually the distance starts to get so great where you're putting all the work in for the relationship where you're not getting any of the fruits out of the work, right? And that's usually where other people come in and, you know, that whole train wreck of stuff starts to happen. And it's because that couple can't repair. They can't really just bridge that distance. It's so sad for us.

It's not about love. There are so many people that love each other, but the distance just gets too great. And then they just let each other go or other people come in just because they did not know how to have that conversation to repair. Yeah, so communication at the end of the day, like don't just stop talking about things because eventually it's gonna be too late, essentially, like, unfortunately, right?

We have such good reasons not to talk though. We don't wanna hurt the other person, we don't want it. It's not the right time, maybe next weekend, and before you know it's like... It's gonna blow up. I think many of us don't talk because we're just afraid, whatever we bring up, it's only, we're only gonna get anger. And so why would I want to talk about it when that means there's gonna be a big fight? Let's take a moment to check in with ourselves, you guys. How would you rate your relationship with yourself lately? I mean, whether you're feeling confident and want to explore your innermost desires further, or maybe you could use

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One more time, it's DipsySt stories.com slash Kristen. One more time, it's dipsystories.com slash Kristen. With so many new projects in the works and when I was filming the goat, I had been traveling non-stop lately and while I love being on the go, jet lag and time changes totally messed with my sleep cycle. A few months ago, I started using Butler Hemp Company's Sleep Blend CBD oil, which has helped me get some of the best sleep in years. Instead of using habit forming ingredients that make me feel groggy and out of it in the morning, it's made with hemp derived cannabinoids that help me fall asleep super quick, but more importantly, sleep through the night.

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So, another thing, sometimes I bring things up calmly again and again and she's like kind of acknowledges it mind somewhere else and then once it's been brushed off enough times, I don't like yelling freak out, but I put my foot down and I'm like, are we going to talk about this or not? This needs to happen, you know? And then it usually gets, like starts to get fired up. Unfortunately, the tabling is our best tool as far as once it starts the emotion, start taking over the logical brain

We say all right table this will come back to it and then we got 24 hours Yeah, take a little time out table it Until you can both sort of come back to it reasonably. That's that's a good strategy I mean if couples especially if they add into that we're gonna table it now and let's come back This evening, you know, so that there's a time that they know for certain they are coming back to it. It's easier to let it go when it gets too hot if there's going to be another time that they reconnect. I guess what I'm starting to find,

I don't know, I think about this stuff. I actually spend a lot of time alone. I'm a loner. I drove all the way here by myself. It's 15 hours. It's kind of a normal thing. I live by myself most of time alone. I'm a loner. I drove all the way here by myself. It's like 15 hours. It's kind of a normal thing. I live by myself most of my life. So I self-reflect a lot and think about stuff too much.

And I can turn this probably irrational, but I see results when I get to that point. You know, it's like that's when, because I bring it up calmly, bring it up calmly, bring it up calmly. And then once I say it in a way I get an emotional reaction change like initiates the change and I'm like okay it might be trained to push myself to that point. He's not wrong. Yes, that's why you got to learn and you got it's counterintuitive to talk about there's

always an out before we protect ourselves. So right before you get angry, there is an ouch that you often don't talk about. Your anger does work, it gets her to respond, but it gives her an ouch, right? It tells her she's doing something wrong. And she wants to get it right, so she forces herself to do it.

But when both people are hurting each other to get each other respond, it's not the best way. So it's kind of intuitive to listen to the ouch, right? That's saying, you know, you mean so much to me. And when it seems like it's not as best way. So it's kind of intuitive to listen to the out, right? That's saying, you know, you mean so much to me when it seems like it's not as important to you as me, that hurts, right? And I want to talk to you about that hurt because if you love me, you want to help me with that. Like it becomes a bridge that brings people together when they can talk, you know, about what's going on underneath. But a lot of us never grow up being shown how to do that.

So all we do is show the protection. I'm angry or I don't care and I'm walking away. And then we're left to our own assumptions to make sense. Like, if I want to connect and she's walk away, she must not care. I mean, that's the most common thing we see. The person who walks away doesn't care.

And the person whose angry is just this mean person who's just randomly critical all the time. Like there's no, not them better to do with their lives than just fire away, right? Because neither person is talking about what's going on underneath. But that's the good news. That's where the solution lies in kind of putting words to what's happening underneath. That is so unbelievably fucking helpful. Like you have no idea. Because I completely agree with everything Luke was saying. That is unfortunately true. That it's just like, babe, you understand.

I have all these things, right? All these things you understand, you understand, you understand. Until it's like he's had enough and I do respond to that. And I didn't necessarily realize that until right now. But I'm like, no, you're, you're very much, you're very right. But I think that's really powerful, and I'm thinking of other friends that are like in relationships that ignore that out,

and then everything you just said rings so true. Like I have one girlfriend, they've been dating for a couple of years, and he's not a big talker of feelings, it's to take in him a long time for whatever his reasons are, past relationships, family, whatever. But I know the other day they were on the phone

because he's out of town and she was just getting really frustrated with him and said, whatever, she's injured right now. So she was like, I just need a little bit of space right now. And he absolutely panicked as if that, I just need a little bit of space right now. And he absolutely panicked as if that meant that I need a little bit of space means our relationship is over. And she was so confused as to why he would assume

that little bit of space, like, you know, I basically I'd need to get off the phone right now and I'll call you later as well, all she was saying. And he took it to this like, oomth degree of, we're fucking over, but I know very well that they don't talk about the hurt. Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is the shift in space between the two of them. Usually she's the one who's coming after him.

And suddenly when she stops and she's not coming for him, he notices that, that distance. And he gets a little anxious like, oh, wait a second. Wait a second. There's, you know, the game has just changed, which is, I will say, why sometimes, unfortunately, in relationships, we start to play games. We start to do it consciously like, okay, you don't want to talk to me? Fuck you, you know, I'm going to just, I'm not going to talk to you. And then we're actively creating that space. But what we're not doing is what George talked about.

We're not being vulnerable with the pieces inside that are hurting, the pieces inside that get anxious, that get fearful. And it sounds like this was just a misunderstanding but what you noticed Kristen was that suddenly he does get anxious and he comes toward her. It is a bit of a dance. he does get anxious and he comes toward her. You know, it is a bit of a dance, you know, that- No, and you're absolutely right. She's always been the pursuer of the relationship of the say I love me, say I love you back, introduce me to, you know, your family and your friends

and all of these things over so many years. And then all of a sudden, she's just having, you know, a bad moment of one day and it just blew my mind. But I'm like, they never, within this conversation, she's telling me the story. And as you guys were just talking, or George, as you were talking about the hurt, the ouch, that just popped right into my mind.

And I was like, they absolutely skipped right past it. As we have at times, for sure. I don't even use the word vulnerability with most men, right? It's too stretchy it's it's too stretchy. I change it. It's just be just be authentic. Share like whatever signals coming up for you. I mean, find safe words. But what I didn't invite you to think about, Chris, they're like, who sees the out for you in those moments? Right. We can see Luke's out because he's been, you know, rejected. He wants to connect and you know, but that message that you get when you're just busy

thinking about life and all of a sudden you know he's not happy with you, he's kind of angry, like there's an out for you. That's like, oh, I'm letting him down, I'm failing, like that's, and yet oftentimes who sees that? Right, when you go right into motion and you respond to Luke and again, it's both of your jobs to protect each other,

to fight for these places in each other. Because when we're loved in these places, you'll never be safer on this planet than in those small parts. So beautiful. I like it. And something you said, Dr. Laurie, that I think a lot of people go through this mental battle

as far as when you feel like you're being treated a certain way, maybe neglected, or a certain way that whole thought process of, oh, do I do this back to them to show them what they're doing? And those thoughts have gone through my mind, but I always win the mental battle of, no, that's not me, I'm not doing that. Even the mental battle with yourself. With myself, of course. I mean, that's who it is.

But I feel like that's probably a super common thing. Most people have that feeling, like, okay, if they're going to do this to me, I'm going to do probably a super common thing. Most people have that feeling like, okay, if they're gonna do this to me, I'm gonna do it right back to them. How many times have I heard a sexual pursuer say, okay, I've asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked. I'm done asking.

I'm just never gonna ask. I'm gonna wait until they ask and wait till they come to me. I mean, we think that's gonna work, right? Because we're creating that space and they're gonna have longing. And then what happens? Yes, yes. What happens when they ask for it?

We say, okay, I'm not so interested because we're so angry that it took them so long to get back to us that it's like, fuck you again. It's like, just help them in your way. Yeah. I want you to feel what I feel. So we want to do the same thing back. We think it's going to be for motivation.

Yeah. I guess what guys, they don't learn a lesson. We think revenge is a good motivation for our partner. If only you knew what I felt and how bad it feels, you would be loving me so much more. Oh my God, that is so true. I guess what guys, it doesn't work. It doesn't work healthy. We promise you it doesn't work. This other way, this other way of talking with your partner about

how much it hurts to long for them sexually, to want them, to want them in your body, to want to be with them, and just how lonely it feels when they don't respond to you. I mean, those are hard things to say or what we fear inside, you know. I get fearful that I'm not attractive to you or I get fearful that you really don't want me. I'm not important to you or that sex is never going to be important to you. All those things, which like when you say them all at once, it might feel like a heavy load, but eventually we have to tell our partner those things so they can see what's going on on the inside of us. Right, and I think if people were to start having those conversations and being vulnerable or

whatever you want to call it, right, and saying like this hurts me rather than pointing the finger at like you did this or you're not doing that enough, which I think, obviously, we all know it's just human beings. It doesn't exactly like tickle your fancy to make you want to try harder when you just feel you're being blamed. It's something my therapist always says is like, stop giving, whenever you're like pointing fingers at someone is she's like, stop giving them so much power. You're not saying like, this is all you the way I feel this way.

No, it's like, this hurts me. And I need you to know so can we resolve this and can you meet me halfway here, compromise whatever you're going to call it? I would say I run across a lot of men who are like you, Kristen. They actually like sex, they want sex, but they get preoccupied with building their career and with all the things that they need to do. It's like that becomes a really central focus. And so when they hear this complaint, I'm just going to imagine kind of what goes on the ouch for you and for them is like, look at, I have so much pressure. You don't understand the kind of pressure I'm under.

Like you don't understand how hard and working you can't, you're not appreciating what I'm up against. All of that, OX, needs to be said and talked about as well. Yeah, we talk about it. Nice. Yeah. I like to talk to you. Yeah, I use the choice.

That's why we have this podcast, luckily. I have a question for both of you. How often do you run into couples that have issues with each other that don't stem from each other, that stem from a past relationship, right? Something that they're keeping with them and it gets in the way. Oh, boy. Who will look on George's face right now?

Every, every couple we see, you know, you're, you're moves in a present moment are all informed by things that have happened in the past. So we're all carrying the skeletons and a baggage of our past into our current relationship. You know, so it always influences and most people don't know how to talk about it. And again, it just leaves both people into blind. So seeing the opportunity to learn lessons, we're talking about the past, not to be people up. We're going to the past to understand how we can make the future better. What could we learn? What would be a different move if this would happen again? I think that's the opportunity of couples

that engage in a process of trying to get closer together. Yeah, I think consciousness about, especially our childhoods, and what happened in our childhoods leave kind of deep patterns inside of us. Maybe my father never said, you're a pretty little girl. And so I grew up sort of without that masculine assurance that I am deeply attractive.

And then when my partner rejects me, it's like, oh my God, you know, here it is again. And I may not even think about that consciously, but unconsciously, those tapes are playing and telling me that this is happening again. This is not safe or you know or maybe as a mom as a man my mother was invasive. And you know got into my business too much and always wanted to know what was happening. And then when my partner is like well how was your day? It's like what do you want to know?

Why are you always curious about everything that I'm doing? It's like you're screening me. It's like you're trying to, you know, get into that. I'm only laughing. Every time Luke just looks at me or not just me, I'm like, I know. I know.

So recently, she has an ex-boyfriend that she had to do Permission right you some certain sometimes you felt like you had to ask permission for things Right like to socialize or something like that right right and that like I feel like in a Dispuse that we have it kind of came back and I'm like what are you even talking about asking for permission? When am I not supportive of what you're doing? I'm just asking you to make a little time for me. And then I, and then I, and then I go to the little time. And then I go to the little time. And he was like, what are you talking about?

And I was like, I don't know. I just, it's how it feels right now. Yeah, fight or flight, it's like triggers that, right? It's muscle memory. It's exactly right. And you, you know, when your brain gets triggered, it doesn't recognize what's happening now. It just goes into that survival mode. Like, I've been hurt. I've seen this's exactly right. And when your brain gets triggered, it doesn't recognize what's happening now. It just goes into that survival mode.

I've been hurt. I've seen this play out before. My partner cheats on me all the time. I just see you do something. You turn your phone a certain way. My brain says, there it is again. It's like, it starts to replay exactly what happens. But the difference is if the new partner

can respond with a new move, not get defensive, be open, right? That starts to retrain the brain to let go of a lot of that mistrust or trauma or abuse. Yeah, I think that's a really great tool that I'm going to take for sure home with me as I'm home. But you know, and I want all of the listeners to also remember like in these situations, like we're talking about right now, George, you've said this like just twice in the last two minutes

about the new move or how to recognize it and now change the response. Because if you keep doing the same thing over and over as we know, blah, blah, blah, like you're not gonna get the answer. So just try something new. If that thing doesn't work, next time try something else. You're gonna find the thing that works for the two of you, right?

If just a few people listen to what you said, that that changed their lives, it is all about new moves. It really is. Most people coming in are trying to say something over and over again. And they're like, why is this not working well? Because you're doing the same thing. When we can get couples to people to try something differently, they always do better.

I love it. Oh, well, I don't know. You've tried to move. I didn't try to look. It's a poor sprain in the gutter. I mean, the pursuer. Oh, you guys, this has been so helpful, so entertaining. You're both so lovely and we would absolutely love to have.

Thank you. We would love that. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. The two of you together, just like, I don't know, the way Lori's like, George, what's the thing? You always say like, it's just you guys have such a vibe together. And yeah, so everyone please go listen to their podcast.

It's called For Play Radio with Cloud 10, which is our network as well. And yeah, we would definitely love to have you on again. Thank you so much for your time and helping all of our listeners out. You guys write these things down. Listen to it a couple of times. Go listen to their podcasts. Write them five stars. Yeah, thanks for coming on. Do you guys have anything? Do you have a saying closing? Do we want to ask them the question? I think we have to. Let's not sing it. Okay.

Okay, we have one last question that we ask our guests. And this is for both of you. I would do anything for love. But I won't do what? It's the meatloaf leader extract. I would do anything for love, but I won't do. What would you not do for love? I said heroin. Looped to say that.

My friend Janet, who is married, says she won't give a blowjob to completion She needs to come see me Yeah She calls it she calls it a BJ W you a warm up. That's all she'll do not the DC. Yeah Do you get something? I'm just going deep. I'm like, you know thinking about my faith Faith and my kids and compromising that stuff, I'm like, I mean, you probably wouldn't commit a murder, right? Definitely not a murder. I don't even know what mine is gonna be for today.

I would do anything for love, but I won't let a stranger watch my dogs. That is true. You will not do that. And I mean that, because Luke will say, just get someone from like Rover or one of those to like come over and walk them I'm like are you out of your mind? My dogs don't know them. They'll be upset. I would do anything for love. I

Know gosh I would do anything for love, but is there something weird? You wouldn't We're like an irrational fear something like you're not gonna dive with sharks I did this for a guy that I really liked and I would never do it again. I would never eat snails again. Oh yeah gross. Okay so Lori would do anything for love but she will not eat snails. She will not have them second not even for her husband. She is spent she has done no more snails. You're up George. He's gone deep His main I can see him I can see the wheel the wheels

The notice how she said my little brain There's always talking about little things I'm gonna take a Mulligan on that one and come back the next time I answer that question. It's going to be a really, really good one next time. You're going to have all the time. It will be deep. It will be deep. I want two for me next time.

I want like an irrational fear and then a deep one. All right. Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much again and everyone go listen to their podcast and rate them five stars. Leave comments below. And if you guys have listeners, if you have any other questions for them for the future,

please send us an email, sexlovepodcastatgmail.com. And we'll talk to you next week. Make sure to follow us on social media. You can follow me on all platforms at Kristen Dodie and follow Luke on Instagram at Luke Double underscore Broadway. Be sure to click the subscribe button so you can stay up to date with new episodes every single Wednesday. Thanks for listening. See you next week. you