Sex, Love, and What Else Matters - Undercover Underage with Roo Powell

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Episode 32. Roo Powell joins Kristen this week to discuss her non-profit organization SOSA (Safe From Online Sex Abuse) as well as her docuseries, Undercover Underage - now airing Season 2 on both Discovery ID AND HBO Max! In Undercover Underage, Roo's team place decoys online to engage with child predators and protect the most vulnerable. As Kristen's favorite show, Kristen refers to it as a modern-day version of "To Catch A Predator meets Catfish". Irrespective of cameras, SOSA is doing work around the clock to keep minors safe on the internet from what Roo refers to as "ACMs" (Adults Contacting Minors). Kristen and Roo talk about the differences between their childhood and how accessible the internet is in the present day for both children and predators. The stories Roo has to share in her experience both on and off the show will blow your minds: from her intricate work with law enforcement, to the emotional toll it takes to run a sprint and takedown, to the real behind-the-scenes work and the WILD things her team has seen (which no one ever should). Please follow @sosatogether on all social media platforms and visit sosatogether.org to DONATE and to find out more information! Thank you to our sponsor, OneSkin! Get 15% off with the code DOUTE at oneskin.co. We only have one body, one skin, and only YOU can choose to make it better. Age healthy with OneSkin. Thank you to our sponsor, GreenChef! Go to greenchef.com/doute60 and use code DOUTE60 to get 60% off plus free shipping.  Follow us: @kristendoute @luke__broderick Email us: [e-mail]   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well my men could be a friend, welcome back to another episode of Sucks Love and What Else Matters. I have a guest that I'm dying over right now because I've been trying to be her friend ever since season one of undercover underage came out. She is the founder of Sosa, Safe, Wait, Sorry. What is Sosa stand for, Ruth? This is RuPaul. Hi, Safe from online sex abuse. Safe from online sex. Yeah, I put that in there. That's right. Safe from online sex abuse. So this is rule of howl everybody. So if you have not seen undercover underage, it is on Discovery ID, then you're living under a rock. It is

strangely my favorite show Which is awesome, but it's very disturbing, but it's very eye-opening and I remember When I started like sliding into your DMs and trying to be your buddy online because I was so obsessed with the premise of this show The way I explained it to people is kind of like to catch a predator meets like catfish. I don't know if that's the way you would describe it necessarily, but I remember when you and I were like messaging on Instagram and then started texting

and I told you like I watched every episode of season one like five times. Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, I guess to catch a predator plus catfish would make sense. It's a very much like a modern day version of it, right? Because to catch a predator was very like, okay, why don't you come inside?

Why don't you have a seat? And it was definitely an entertaining show. So so we do this work irrespective of cameras. So whether or not we're being filmed, this is stuff that we're doing. And so essentially what we're doing. And so essentially, what we're doing is we put fake teenagers online decoys in order to identify perpetrators of child sex abuse and exploitation. And we work with law enforcement while we're doing that. So we'll

usually go to a city or a county and partner with law enforcement there in order to start this operation. Okay, so I have a lot of questions about that. So first and foremost, when did you found so, so like when did so, so start for you? It's just an amazing thing that you're doing and I think everyone really needs to pay attention to this. I tell all of my friends who are young moms now and I don't think people even understand like we didn't have this stuff growing up. I mean I would have 13 I remember like a wall chat rooms and I can't think people even understand, like we didn't have this stuff growing up. I mean, when I was 13, I remember like, A-Wall chat rooms, and I can remember some, like, pretty gnarly things that were even being said on there,

but it was just not, we weren't savvy back then. Yeah, and the keyword was, wanna cyber. Yeah, right. Yeah, there was in, like, all of these horrific things, so people like actually meeting up and it just blows my mind. So just tell us first a little bit about SoSci

before we get into like the TV show. Sure, so SoSci's been around since 2020, but I've been doing this work since prior to 2020. At the time I was working for a tech company that's in the safety space, the online safety space, and I was running the creative team. And I would see these instances of online sex abuse. And again, so hard to explain because parents, like you and I didn't, we weren't raised with a smartphone in our hands. Snapchat has only been around for about a decade or so. So this is relatively new

territory. And I wanted to share what can happen to a kid online, but I also didn't want to use a real case and exploit a real child. You know, that's, there's a real victim there. So my team and I put together a fake profile and it was me, Daged digitally, you know, I had graphic designers on the team. And we put this fake person online in order to demonstrate the ubiquity of online predation. And within the first hour, we had six messages from adults. And this was without even posting, it was like one photo or just a one post and read it.

It was all very, very benign. And now you see on the show, we have these, we have tons of preparation that go into these profiles and this was just like one picture and like one, one liner. And I was kind of taken aback by the response. And at that time, we would give that information to law enforcement as well. I ended up writing a piece about it that kind of took off went viral because it's like, oh gosh, look what's happening online. And that kind of led to a production company

reaching out saying, hey, can we follow you around? And at that time, I was still actively a part of a couple cases. And I realized that this is something that really isn't understood. It is really hard to explain. It's like a different language. Like it's a different planet.

I felt like this is something that we really needed to raise awareness about. So that is how SoSa started. That's genius. Like it's amazing. And everybody, I'm gonna post a lot about this on my Instagram. I do already about SoSa and, you know, any small donations,

you know, it's like you give a dollar if every single person gave a dollar how much that would help you with these sprints because I think people don't understand like how costly that they can be regardless of all, you know, the help that you have. But I have a question again just before so this was basically that was like the birth of what came to be undercover under age. Are you doing this one like little profile, right? Well, I had done a couple more since then. Like, you know, we flushed them out,

we experimented, like I, you know, put a 12 year old and the 11 year old, we did it, we did a few different ages. I was shocked on season two, this season that's airing right now that you guys have a it's right I think Isabella's her name she's 20 years old playing as a 12 year old because on season one they were mostly like 15 14 years old yeah that blew my mind that an adult

I mean number one any adult any man of a man of these ages should not be even looking at anyone 14 or 15, but 12 just feels like elementary school most. I mean, it's not, but it just, there's such a huge difference. Well, that's the question that I had was like, how low does this bar go? Well, as we know on season two, that what we recently discovered, like I can barely talk about it. Yeah, the bar isn't that. A toddler. I mean, Jesus Christ. Yeah. So I have a question just about what,

at least what we're seeing on TV and just what you do is so said, but like, so last season you were on the East Coast. You guys were like in Connecticut, I believe. Yep. And this season you're in Oklahoma. Right. Doing these sprints in this, you have this house,

you have all these like room set up for the different decoys. How do you guys choose which city? And because if I'm not mistaken, there is not a federal age limit. Correct. Isn't it state by state? It is. So all of these laws vary by state. So certain states have, you know, grooming statutes where it is illegal to even speak to

a minor in a sexual way. Certain states, you know, the age of consent is 18, some at 17, some at 16, but actually for the most part, and people are often surprised to hear this, most states, the age of consent is 16. And that's why there are times where we'll have a perpetrator reach out and they hear that our decoys 15. And the next question is, how long until you turn 16?

Like, how long? Because they know those laws. So we choose basically, it's based on law enforcement. So if law enforcement says, hey, we'd really like for you to come out here and help us, then we really need the law enforcement by and. So if an IKAC, which is internet crimes against children, an IKAC team wants us to come help, we're happy to come. Oh, okay.

So if you have a friend, if you have a friend who is a, you know, ICAC detective, have them give us a call, and we'll see you guys. Yeah, everyone here that, everyone here that. Okay, is that something that you guys have thought of or is anyone ever brought up like getting it into motion for it to become like a federal law that you know the minor has

that it is like 18 or you know or all the laws are the same or is that just like so difficult and really is up to state by state. I think generally speaking like as we've seen in this country, things so very state by state and so it's hard to have something federally passed. I do think that the age of consent should be 18. If 18 is the arbitrary age that we say that someone is an adult, like you're 18, you can vote, you can smoke, you can fight for this country, then it should also be the age that, you know, you are able to make these decisions about sexual relationships and what can honestly potentially be really damaging. I still think like the developmental difference

between 16 and 18 is still big. I think about myself as a 16 year old and then as an 18 year old, there's some maturing that happens in that time. You know, with SoSA, I do speak with legislators about some thoughts I have like, hey, what if this state had a grooming statute? Hey, what if we raise the consent to the age of consent to 18? And that's something that, you know, we do a little, a little bit of and it would be great for, I mean, I think that would be great for the age of consent to be 18 across the board. I do think that would be great.

So everyone talk to your law makers. There's no way that anyone in this country unless you are an ACM adult contacting a minor. That's a social term correct. Right. That you guys use. So unless you are one of those people, I cannot imagine any reason that everyone should not

be speaking to their lawmakers about this. Yeah, I don't know what the downside. I mean, a lot of times there are laws and people, there are pros and cons and you know, you see people that can argue both sides. I don't really see a downside of the age of consent being 18. I could not agree more. And something that you talk about a lot,

I've noticed, especially on social media, because people do get really fired up as I am when I'm watching this show and, you know, looking at your social media. But something that you've made abundantly clear to people that I think is really important is you're doing this work with law enforcement and you have a team, you guys know what what you're doing and this is not something that people should be trying to do out on their own. Yeah, I mean, I think I can understand the impulse to want to just have online and I find a bad guy.

And there are lots of these groups and organizations that will communicate online and then show up with a camera and kind of across the person and say you're here meeting a 14-year-old and I again I understand the impulse to do that and I could see how it might be a deterrent for perpetrators but those cases are largely not prosecutable and also it can be really really dangerous so often you, when I speak with law enforcement, they do say we would really prefer if people not do that because there are so many things that go into it, including like knowing the requirements for prosecution

and what are the rules of engagement because they vary by state. Right, and I think that's really the most important because what you're trying to do is get these adults held accountable and justice to be served. And so if somebody were to go out of their way because they're fired up about this and then all of a sudden in the case becomes not prosecutable, then it's just like, oh man. And I don't think I don't think that, you know, posting a YouTube video about some guy

that you meet in the Walmart parking lot is necessarily the most effective way to make sure that somebody is brought to justice. I get the impulse behind it. I certainly do. It's also just incredibly dangerous. You know, it's just a dangerous thing to do. And, you know, frankly, a lot of people will do this and they'll send it to law enforcement.

And as one law enforcement officer I spoke with, he runs an eye-cack, and my lot to curse here. Yeah, hell yeah. Okay, fuck you. Fuck you. He was like, all they're doing is putting like stacks of shit on our desk, and it's just tying up like, what am I supposed to do with this? I have all of these cases, and then I've got people that are just saying, hey, go get this

guy, and I can't do anything with that, you know? So it's really, if you want to support, there are lots of other things you can do to support that don't include doing something that is actually causes more harm than good. Very excellent point. So I'm pleased to pay attention to that. And then I just have one more question about this, because it's something that goes through my head

and something that friends that have watched your show and have watched it with me, have wondered, what about Citizens' Rest? Is that a thing or like bounty hunting or like is that a thing when it comes to these cases? I always just assume that Citizens are us were like urban legends but maybe that's not the case. I don't know. I like to think that I'm a private investigator even though though I'm not, so. It's just we only work with law enforcement, and that's it. Just smart. And you see in season two that they're very passionate about making sure that these people are brought to justice. And I think there are some very satisfying

endings to some of these cases. Oh my gosh. Yes, on season two, I was like, oh my god, that he's arrested. And he's like, we're four episodes in. And there have already been arrests made, which is just incredible. It's like such a weight off of, you know, my shoulders, all the viewers of this show, like their shoulders, obviously you and your team as well. And what I think is so awesome about your show is like, not only are you teaching people like me, people are aged that weren't internet savvy, how easy this is for these adults

to get away with. But also, I hope that this starts scaring the shit out of these ACMs into going, OPE, eyes open. Like, yeah, I will say one of the biggest criticisms I get is you are just teaching predators, all of your tips and tricks, which one, it's not the case. There's plenty of the secret sauce that I won't share on air. And I've never even thought that. I just thought you hopefully are like, this is like a scare tactic. Right. Like, let's say, let's say, you know, we go out and we make five, you know, with law enforcement, five arrests are made today. There's still 500,000 perpetrators in the US.

It's not going to be us just kind of pointing them out one by one. If we raise awareness, then we're empowering communities to combat this together. And that includes having, you know, concerned adults and parents and teachers and, you know, cool aunts, understand what's happening online. I'm so excited to tell you guys about one skin. If you've ever thought to yourself what if we can reverse the root causes of aging then listen closely. Our new sponsor one skin puts science and research first, founded by a team of four female PhD level longevity scientists with over 15 years of experience. One skin set out to not just decrease the visible signs of skin aging, but to treat the root

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We only have one body, one skin, and only you can choose to make it better. H healthy with one skin. I think also what people don't understand maybe that aren't as involved or that haven't watched your show yet, you guys and I am begging you, this show will have you hooked, like it's insane. It blows my mind how many different ways that these adults can go about things like, and how that they're all wrong,

like but some men are masturbating, they're showing off their genitals, some are literally persuading these who they think are children to actually physically meet up with them. Sometimes that same day or the next day. But then there's also just even the conversation and talking about body parts and things that like a 12-year-old should never, 13, 14-year-olds should never have to be discussing. I think not everyone understands that. You know what I mean? Like, it's not just this or that happens. Like, there's just so many different levels of the grooming of process, I guess. Right. And what you see has been edited for television, you know, for a TV 14 rating.

There's so much that we can't share that is just so vile and so horrendous because we do want people to be able to watch it. It's not nearly digestible if you see all the vomit inducing things that we have to see and the things that they're saying to kids. But yeah, I mean, there, some of the tactics are really sneaky. So I did a talk once among adults and I used someone in the crowd as to demonstrate how perpetrators work. And I used someone in the crowd to demonstrate how perpetrators work. And I said, hey, can you just hold on to this pen for me

for a second? I'm like, yeah, sure. I'm like, oh, hey, can you fix my button on my sleeve for me? OK, sure. Then a few minutes later, I had another question. Hey, can you just hold on to this highlighter for me? And what I was doing was he just kept saying, yes, yes, yes, because all the things I asked for were really benign. Of course, I'll hold this pen for me. And what I was doing was he just kept saying yes, yes, yes, yes, because all of the things I asked for were really benign. Like, of course, I'll hold this pen for you. Sure,

I'll button your cuff button for you. And it's very similar to what happens online when a child is being groomed. It's like, oh, make sure you send me a good morning text when you wake up. All right, nothing seems fishy there. Good morning. Hey, um, oh, you're having breakfast. Take a picture of what you're eating. Okay, here's a bowl of my oatmeal. Uh, that's also seems benign. And then it's like, okay, now how about what you're wearing for the day? Okay, here's my outfit. Super cute. Like, that's a normal thing. That's normal. And so they get these kids so used to saying yes, so used to acquiescing to the requests that when they push the envelope further, it's like, well, you know, we're friends,

it doesn't seem like a big deal. None of this other stuff has been a big deal. And it puts kids in a really awful, a really awful situation. And these guys are master manipulators, you know? They absolutely are. Like it is, it's legit mind blowing. I can't even fathom some of the stuff that I've seen.

And although like you said, we're not even fathom some of the stuff that I've seen. And although like you said, we're not even seeing like the worst of the worst. It's like you can read it on your face on Shelby, one of your producers on the show like her face, your whole team, these now that it's not you being the decoy and you have these decoys like having Isabel who plays Abby on your show,

like literally in tears. Because she's like, he, like it hit her, like you could just see it. It hit her like a ton of bricks, like this man thinks he's actually speaking to a 12 year old and it's just fucking mind blowing. Right, I mean, it's interesting because there was one day on set and I have three kids, two our teens,

one's a twin, and they came and visited me, and you know, they were there season one, too, so they know of Shelby and Matt and Jordan. And they came and they just visited. And I think they were like in the in that research and support room. And they were like doing a painting while we were filming us filming. And it really kind of hit home for everyone. Like holy shit. Like these are the ages that we're portraying right now. Because we're all adults. I mean, even Isabelle is young, she's 21. She's still, she's an adult.

And she, you know, she has experiences from being online when she was younger, like all of us do. And yeah, it is hard. I do feel this level of responsibility of kind of protecting the team as much as I can, especially because Isabelle and Alicia are so much younger than I am. So there are times where like in that in one video call,

if somebody is masturbating or showing up their genitals or doing something really gross, they leave the room or we turn off video and I face the phone towards me and I just tell Isabel what to say so they can still hear her. But yeah, the more that we can shelter, it's like we don't want to poison the well. So we try to shield as much of the team as possible because it does start to get seedy stuff and when you're bombarded with it, it's all the worse. Yeah, the fact that you can handle that is like your super mom, super woman,

like I don't, girl, I don't even know. So something I noticed on season two, someone I'm from your research team became a decoy, right? Yes, so Becca, she actually works, she works for Sosa, so she's up here in our new Haven office, and she works with Sosa, she was willing to be a decoy, and we weren't sure if we were going to do more than two because sometimes two is like all we can handle, it kind of depends on the influx. When you guys have like a million iPhones going on at one time, like yelling at each other through this house.

Yeah, I'm secretly hoping, I'm secretly hoping that Ryan Reynolds will like sponsor our next decoy sprint with Mint Mobile or something because it is, it's so many phones and so many phone bills. You know what? Shout out, let's manifest that. Ryan Reynolds, you have four, I think four daughters,

or no, she's pregnant to three young daughters and another on the way right now. So Ryan Reynolds get on board manifesting. Yeah, we need that on that head of plan. Absolutely. And so yeah, we're juggling a lot of phones and a lot of messages are coming in and we were like, well Becca, let's get you on there. And we had rooms prepped just in case because there have been in the past where if somebody gets burned, then we have to kind of shut all that down and we have a new persona for them. And maybe they slept on a wig

and they were in a different bedroom. So we already had another bedroom prepped and ready to go. And then we decided we were going to launch her. And I spoke with the sheriff's office about it. And she was ready. We already had the fake braces made for her. And she did great. She's not an actor by trade was, she was ready. We already have the fake braces made for her. And

she did great, you know, she's not an actor by trade, but she did great. Oh, she did a phenomenal, like it took me a second. I'm like, oh my god, that's wait. She's from research. Right. And if you send a donation, it's Becca writing you a thank you note. So she yeah. So everyone, please donate, please donate. And she did And she did a great job. She's 23 and she shares in one of the episodes what it was like for her being a 14-year-old online and making friends with older people and realizing that they did not have good intentions in mind.

And so I think that all of us, regardless of what age we are when we were born, we have a story of like something just not feeling right, something feeling really off and gross and then feeling ashamed about it. And I'm really hoping, I'm hopeful that undercover underage releases a lot of young people from victim blaming, any victim blaming that they've felt over the years. And I think that's one of my, those are some of my favorite messages that say, you know, your show made me realize that my abuse was not my fault.

And, you know, I couldn't ask for much more than that. That's so important, especially at that age. So like what we were kind of talking about earlier because you and I are right close to the same age here. You're still younger than me, but. I think we're exactly the same age. I'm 40. I'm 40. Oh, you are? Okay, I'm 30 or 39, so I think we're exactly at the same age. I'm 40. I'm 40.

Oh, you are? Okay, I'm 39, so I'm going to be gay for us. So I like what I was saying in the beginning, like I remember just like an AOL chat room, right? And now, even as a grown adult, I'm pretty much only aware of like the main social media that is available to us, the snap, which I don't use because I'm too old. I think the Instagram, the Facebook, the Twitter. But when I'm watching Undercover Out Under Age,

there's all these different social media outlets or chat rooms or forums that I'm not even aware of. And I wonder, like, how do you guys figure out all these different things? Do you think parents are aware that their children have access to much more than just the things I know of? Yeah, I don't think that they necessarily do. There are so many and the only reason why we know about them is because we are very much online. But, you know, I think people really kind of go,

oh, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok. Like, those are the main ones that I'm concerned about. But there's Discord and Kick and Twitch and Omega and meet me and scout and ad chat and I could go on and on and on. There are so many ways to communicate. But it's not just these like meeting apps or social apps that parents need to be concerned about. I was helping train a trust and safety team for a company that develops apps. And they said, hey, we've really had a difficult time with one of our apps because there are just a lot of perpetrators on there that are praying on children. And I'm like, all right, what kind of app is it? Tell me about it. It's a coloring book app. A coloring book app. So, and so we always think like,

I don't know how many times one of us has, you know, needed to entertain a kid. And so you download a coloring book app and you can't a kid an iPad and just say, all right, go do a thing for a bit. But really it's any app where there's any potential communication. So I remember at one point,

one ACM had said, hey, I'm worried about texting you. I don't want to get caught. Can you and I both download the same makeup app and we can just chat on that? So I mean, there it's, you know, it's having on words with friends. It happened on the Fitbit app.

It's not uncommon. So I just never want, because parents will say, what are the worst ones? I just never or what are the safe ones. I never want to give a parent like a false sense of security. Like, oh, this is really super safe because if you can communicate on it, like, Kristen, you and I could open up a Google Doc

and you could be writing in blue and I could be writing in green and I could be a predator praying on you. You know, it's just, there are so many, unfortunately, so many avenues with which to harm a child. So really, I mean, I'm not a mom, so I never try to speak as a parent, but it's, I think, it's really about like communicating with your child and having that open line of communication.

So no joke. I was at my girlfriend's camera in yesterday. She's a mom of two. And her daughter was on, is it called Robo blocks? Roblox. Roblox. Sorry. She was on both of her kids, but her one, her older daughter was on Roblox. And I was telling my friend Cam about this interview and telling her all about undercover underage. We watched the trailer for season two. I'm like, girl, you have to jump on board and she was mind blown, right? As we were doing that, we come into the house and her daughter comes up and says, Mom, I'm on Roblox with a couple of her friends and I didn't realize you could chat on there, right? And all of a sudden, someone pops in

that's like not in their friend group which I didn't know could happen and just wrote, trust me. Oh, God. And that's all it said. And she immediately was like, Hey, Mom, this person just jumped into the blah blah blah and it was like, thank God she said something.

Thank God she was smart enough to know this is weird. I don't even know who this person is. And I didn't, so I was her asking her. I was like, well, I isn't it like a private chat room. It's just you and your girlfriends, like, how is there someone on there? And she was like, well, no, anybody can jump in and like say something at the top.

And it just like a holy shit. Well, I think it's great that she has that kind of relationship with her mom. That speaks to the relationships that they have, that she was willing to go, hey, something's not right here. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. Something's not right.

This doesn't feel right. I mean, I was definitely a curious teenager. If somebody hopped into a group and said, trust me, I'm like, oh, about what? Like, say more. Like, I'm here for the plot, let's go. And I think I could see how I would have certainly gotten into trouble.

And it's not about even about being smart or savvy. Kids are just, these guys are so experienced at manipulating kids. And I think about there are times where I was messaging one of these perpetrators and he's like, I'm like, hey, I have to go to bed because it's late, it's past this decoys bedtime and we need to do, we're done for the night.

He's like, just stay up, I wanna, just send me one picture. I'm like, I can't, I'm in bed. My mom's gonna find out. I was like, no, just say you're gonna go to the bathroom and then like, go to the bathroom, take a quick picture and then send it to me. And it's like, they've got everything in their back pocket. Like, okay, just go to the bathroom. Oh, you picture, and then send it to me. And it's like they've got everything in their back pocket.

Like, okay, just go to the bathroom. Oh, you're at school and you can't take a sexy photo, just go to the bathroom, go to the locker room, tell your teacher your second, you need to go to the bathroom because you're gonna vomit and then send me, you know, a photo. Yeah, I mean, it's hard, it's hard. It's almost that.

Yeah, it's just manipulation. And they're aggressive. And honestly, it's scary. Sometimes you, especially as a kid, sometimes you comply just out of fear. Yeah, as a child like let me I can explain it like even as an adult or even as a young adult. Did someone ever kiss you and you didn't necessarily want to be kissed? But you're standing there kind of frozen and you're like, I don't really know how to handle this. I'm just gonna I don't know what to do here. I don't want to be a sudden one. I don't want this, but I don't really know how to handle this. I'm just gonna, I don't know what to do here. I don't want to upset anyone.

I don't want this, but I don't know what to do. And so you're just kind of like, you kind of go into like, scared recoon mode, you know? Yeah. And I feel like that's what a lot of kids go through. You know, it's hard to know what to say or what to do or to think that somebody like, well, I don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

I don't want to make someone mad at me. I don't know what to do. Yeah, I don't want them to be mad at me. I'm embarrassed. I'm awkward, but mostly that I don't want them to be mad at me. I don't know what to do. Yeah, I don't want them to be mad at me. I'm embarrassed. I'm awkward, but mostly that I don't want them to be mad at me or think something of me, especially as teenagers, because they're in this growing phase of like Going through a million different identity changes. I mean, I remember being 12 13 14 and I was like, well now I'm the girl with the blue lipstick And now I'm cheerleading and now I'm like the choir door and now I have these different friends and like you're just constantly figuring out your identity at that point and going through puberty and it's my personality would change

with every movie I watched. I'm like okay I want to be like her totally. I'm gonna flip through a delias catalog and find the exact same outfit. Yes, we were like a little bit weird the same. I have so many questions I'm trying trying to like, I'm so fired up right now. Like, you know, as soon as I watched Undercover and Age, I was like, I need to be on your research team. Please let me be on your research team. We're gonna get you there. We're gonna get you there.

We're gonna send you a laptop and a headset. I'm all over it. So I just wanna talk about like specifically for those of my awesome listeners who are fans of Undercoverage and those of you who are not, who will become super fans about some of the specific ACMs that you guys have on season two. So you always give them a pseudonym, obviously, change their

voice, blur out the face, because as you state in the very beginning of every episode, law enforcement has to serve the justice. And you know, they're innocent until proven guilty, even though we know they're guilty as hell and all of that. But it blew my mind about someone that you guys call the park ranger. He was a child welfare specialist. Yeah, he worked for like DCF, like Department of Children and Family Services. We know when you call, which is like the GPS, like the health and services. Child protective services.

So basically the people that you call when a kid's in danger, and they're like, they need to be removed from this home, he was that person, he's that person. And yeah. I mean, that is like the most wild thing, I think that I've seen, I don't know if it's the, no, maybe not the most wild the season,

but one of the most wild the season, where it's like this person literally has these children in the palm of his hand. You know, he would place foster kids in homes. That was one of his jobs. And then when he wasn't doing that, he was volunteering at his church and he was the youth camp counselor at a sleep away camp.

You know, like being the camp counselor for kids that are the same age as a decoy he was after. That is fucking wild. So we have the park ranger, the soldier. Who was the one that was going after Abby, the 12-year-old decoy, and was that the one trying to get like a bunch of her friends? Like it essentially sounded like child trafficking is what sounded like to me. The patriot? Yes, the patriot. I mean it sounded like sex trafficking. The Patriot? Yes, the Patriot. I mean, it sounded like sex trafficking. He was, or having, were like an orgy party for little girls.

Is he gonna drug them? Like, my brain was going into so many. I mean, at one point, we were like, is he kidnapping? What is this? Like the goal is to, I mean, each number, each age that we threw out, he wanted younger, you know, 12, 11, 8, 2.

And then when I got to the two year old and feel free to cut this because this is so disturbing. But, you know, when he asked, like, well, 2. And then when I got to the two-year-old and feel free to cut this because this is so disturbing. But you know, when he asked like, well, does she wear diapers? I think people need to know this. Yeah. It is, it's fucked up, you guys. Like just alerting you now. Like it's tougher for everyone to hear, but like it's something that you go through every day dealing with these people. And I think it's really important for people to understand. I think people assume that certain kids are exempt. A certain age group is exempt from this. I thought so. Yeah, and this guy was really interested in a toddler in a two-year-old

and would ask questions like, does she wear a diaper? Does she run around outside naked in a sprinkler? Do you think she would sit on my lap? Do you think she would let me change her diaper? I remember somebody said, someone on the team said, why the obsession with diapers? Like, well, because it's giving him access, right? It's like a very, it's a very reasonable thing to do, changing a kid's diaper. But in this scenario, he's getting access. So, you know, he's getting access and he's able to explain it away. I was just changing her diaper. I was just giving her a bath. I think that is so frightening, so frightening for parents to hear. And it's like, it's almost so terrible that we don't even want to process it. That's a possibility. But unfortunately, even with C-Sam, child sex abuse material, legally known as child porn, you do see that. You do see toddlers, you know, and that is, it's brutal to think about. And he asked, you're at Deque Abbey

to send a photo of what is that like, her the neighbor, she said she had like a two-year-old neighbor child and he was like, oh, send me a photo. So then immediately you have Matt, who's on your team, who's just brilliant at Photoshop and graphic design, all of that, but he was able to create like a baby essentially, it was like an AI. Yeah, we use an AI.

We use an AI toddler and then he edited it and we sent it and Yeah, I mean that was our that was the first time we ever had to you know come up with a fictitious two-year-old which is really sad to think about but I think that probably a lot of our friends are our influencers and our online and like it is so it is so sad to think about. But I think that probably a lot of our friends are influencers and are online. And it is so sweet to see our friends' kids, photos of them. But I do, genuinely, or I do caution parents

that sometimes these people, when we are going through a perpetrator's Instagram to see what they follow and who they follow and what they're looking for. Sometimes it's the hashtag, Splish Splash, or potty training, or tubby time. Oh, shit. Because they're looking for those kinds of photos. Because that's like the mom fluencers out there are using hashtags like that because

that's their part of, I guess they're like their job online. Like it didn't even cross my mind. Yeah, well, you think it's innocent, it's open-eyed. Like it's a little kid, you know, having their first bath or their potty training or they're standing in a diaper and they look really cute and a diaper and mom shoes, right? And to know that that is something that is material for these perpetrators, you can't, I mean, I'm shaking my head because I can't find the word for it, but it's kind of mind-blowing.

For the guys that you have essentially like have been, well, we'll say brought to justice. I mean, I don't know what justice really is because I feel like their time behind bars is like not enough for them to even rehabilitate if that's possible. But for the ones that you have, you know, brought to justice per law enforcement, where any of them or do you know where any of them already registered as sex offenders or were they never caught prior to this? Do you guys look at sex offender lists when you're like in the city that you know you're going to do or you mostly just work with law enforcement based on like what was it?

I can't you said it's yeah internet crimes against children. So they were not already on the sex offender registry. And I think that's I mean, people do say, oh, well, we ran a background check. Well, of course, the guy who works for CPS passed the background check. Right. A background check doesn't show what somebody hasn't been, you know, stuff that hasn't been caught. What is private browser looks like?

Yeah. Right. So there have been a couple times that we have caught somewhat, and you'll see this in later episodes, we've found people that are reoffending certainly. And that is really frustrating because it's like, I want to think that people can be rehabilitated certainly. And that is really frustrating because it's like, I want to think that people can be rehabilitated certainly. And I would love to know, I would love to think that undercover underage that someone was watching and going, Oh, man, I realize that I have this like desire to search photos of kids online

and I don't want to do that. I need to go get help. Or it inspires them to get help before they ever become offenders. I do hope that's the case. You will see later on in the season that there is a point where we kind of have our head in our hands and it's like, well, what's the point? Like, what's the point? If they're just going to do it again.

And, you know, of course, that's in the middle of us being really upset. And, you know, there's, we obviously see the the goodness. And I hope that, you know, a five-year sentence, five years in prison is enough for someone to go, damn, I made some really poor life choices. And I need to think about what got me here and what I need to do when I'm back in society because I want to be a productive member of society. You know, I hope that's the case. I am very hopeful that's the case. Obviously, like, recidivism rates are really hard to quantify because so much sex abuse goes unreported. Exactly. So a question, my boyfriend Luke, since he's not here, he had a couple of questions for you.

So in talking about like the penalties and the jail time, Luke wanted to know if you would like to see heavier penalties for these people and what would that look like if it were up to you. your penalties for these people and what would that look like if it were up to you? That is a really good question. So some of the cases that you've seen in season two have been adjudicated, like people are serving time now. I feel like I do not have enough information about rehabilitation and recidivism to accurately answer that or give a good opinion. I don't know if four years is enough. Is it enough in specific crimes? And it's in case by case.

Right. Or should there be a minimum for XYZ? I mean, there are times in some states that somebody just gets probation, right? And then they smoke weed and they get like 10 years in person. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, I can't also fix the justice system, right? Like the holes in the justice system. Single handedly, correct, you think.

Right, but I do hope that I think there are some, we've had some cases where I think our followers and our supporters have been really upset by the length of the sentence, right? Where, you know, it's six years, five years, four years. really upset by the length of this sentence, right? Where, you know, it's six years, five years, four years. And I can understand that frustration. And frankly, that's six years, five years, four years,

and a very conservative Southern state, you know? And so that might be all there is right now, that might be the only recourse. Of course, there's a sex offender, the sex offender registry, what are their lives like when they get out? I mean, with any felon, right? So yeah, unfortunately, there are things in life where I have to say, I don't have enough information to give a really good opinion about that.

Right, now I totally get that. You guys have probably seen me and Luke cook up a storm using green chip on Instagram recently since things have been crazy to say the least. And let me tell you, the meals have been crazy to say the least and let me tell you the meals have been such lifesavers. We have been loving their 10 minute lunches where ETweek's menu includes two convenient low prep and nutritious lunch recipes ready in just 10 minutes no cooking required especially when we're running around all day. Green Chef has options for every lifestyle, keto, protein pack, vegan, vegetarian, fast and fit, Mediterranean

and gluten free. I love their vegetarian options, whereas Luke is all about the fast and fit. They are also environmentally friendly, with reducing your food waste by up to 23% versus grocery shopping. I love making the black bean tacos and their sweet potato curry. Yum! Luke raved about the salmon Caesar salad and the tamari beef bowls. You all need to try it. Just go to greenchef.com slash Dodie 60. That's Dodie 60 and use code Dodie 60 to get 60% off plus free shipping.

Again, greenchef.com slash Dodie 60 and get 60% off plus free shipping. DM me, let me know how you like it. So also on this season, I don't know if I noticed it last season or if I've just noticed it in more for season two, that when you're going out with law enforcement during these, I don't know, what do you call it? Like when you're basically going after the guy, whatever you call it, like a takedown. Yeah. A takedown, yeah, that you're wearing a bulletproof vest. Mm-hmm. So one of which is terrifying to know that that's why you were saying it can be really dangerous.

In the beginning of this, like with just for everyone listening, for you to go out and try to like do this on your own, like Rue is out here doing this in a bulletproof vest with the team of law enforcement, multiple police cars, multiple police officers that are highly trained to handle these situations. And sometimes who God knows if it could be surprising even for them, you never know, right? But Luke wanted to know what is the scariest or if there's more than one or closest call when you went along for an arrest or take down what was something that like terrified you. I remember in season one, you guys, I forgot the officer's name but he always like played your Uber driver. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's, oh my god, he was awesome. But I remember one, I can't remember the guy but you guys have pulled into

some parking lot and there was like a white van and then it just kind of sat in front of you and he was like, we're gonna get down. I don't want him to see you and like you didn't know what was gonna happen in that moment. Yeah. But the headlights just shining at your car going, is the guy gonna get out? Does he have a weapon? Is he gonna take off? Yeah, that was the candy man. Yeah, and it was,

because he literally showed up to a candy store in a white van. Like we couldn't have written something more stereotypical. I would say, and you see it in the season finale, at one point, I, for my safety, I could not wearable a proof vest because we would be tipping an ACM off and he was going to be in really close proximity to me. And we believe that he had this,

that he could potentially be pretty violent. And I knew that law enforcement was around, but sometimes they're not right there. Sometimes they have to be hide, I mean, they have to be hiding. So there are 300 yards away. And my heart definitely pounds in those moments where it's like, oh, damn, like what's what's going to happen here. And I remember at that point, I had had a camera rigged to the front of the vehicle. So like right where the the glove boxes. Right. And this guy was going to be driving towards me. And because it was rigged, there were like bungee cords. I'm like, he's going to see this.. He's gonna see this. And this is this is too sketchy. And so, you know, I'm on I'm I can people can hear me and I can hear them and I'm like I'm I'm pulling this down. I think this is too dangerous. And so as he's like, okay, he's coming up the block. I'm I'm yanking it down. I'm like undoing these Bungie Courts because it's just too nerve-wracking. And there are times to where I'm going to do a meat. There was one other instance where I was going to do a meat and our timing was a little bit off. And I was supposed to go meet him face to face and the timing was a little bit off. So I stopped

because we were meeting in a parking lot. I stopped and I bent over to tie my shoe. And I was just buying time, tying my shoe, tying my shoe, and then suddenly, like, they were there, and the arrest was made. But yeah, those are some adrenaline spikes that take a while to recover from, for sure. Oh, I can't even imagine. I remember last season when you, I don't remember what the episode, but you went to go meet someone

at like a motel, like as a decoy. And I'm just sitting there going, oh, shit, oh, shit. She's literally inside by herself even though the police are outside and like ready and waiting. And yes, there's like a motel receptionist there. No, but it was the cedeest motel too. It was so cede that it's just a bulletproof glass between you and the receptionist or the you and the person behind. And I will say that like sometimes at that point, the producer that was in the car was like,

hurry up, get out of there, go, go, go. He was getting like pretty frantic. Of course, it ended up being fine, you know. But yeah, it's certainly nerve wracking. I would say it's certainly nerve wracking. Like you're obviously worried for your safety. And secondly, and I know probably this is the most importance to you is like, you don't want to lose this guy.

No, you can't blow it. We did all this work. This guy is obviously like a seasoned perpetrator. We can't blow it. We need to get this person. And I will say too that sometimes like, to have an effective take down, sometimes they need to see a body. They need to see the somebody that looks relatively like the person that they're talking to. And it happened not on television, but in a sprint we did recently, I was supposed to be meeting inside a Taco Bell. And I was like, okay, I'll be there with my pink handbag.

And he's walking in, and I'm like, oh, he's walking in the Taco Bell. He's walking in the Taco Bell. I'm standing there and waiting. I'm like, he's gonna spot me and say, oh, damn, that woman's definitely middle age, and like, run. And law enforcement like he came in.

And I was, you know, I was wearing a bulletproof vest and a hoodie and like the hood was off. And I had like, had like, had like, had like, I was listening to music. But yeah, like, I probably, I don't know, I haven't had a physical on a bit. And I think that I might need to go on like blood pressure my skin's in my way.

I was just saying it's a cure blood pressure. It's skyrocketing. Yeah, there's a lot of adrenaline spikes and crashes where you just see me like in the fetal position on the floor for a while. I think people think that when you're on television, like you must be one rolling in money and you're not profit must be rolling in money. And that is just not the case.

Like, we only have three full time employees and like at a non-profit salary, not like a normal human salary. You know, these are, so I think that speaks to how passionate that some of the people on the team are about the work that we do. Hell yeah. So just so everyone knows, yeah, please pay attention to that. Like we are not rolling in the dough, okay? And like this is her life's work,

Rue's life's work and you know, her partners and everyone on her team. And so Rue and I were talking right before the podcast. And as you guys all know, Katie and I have relaunch, which is a WeHoWine, yay! We have our potion number one in the Pinot Grigio out right now and we're getting ready to very soon launch potion number two. And this time around, Katie and I were very excited and passionate with the owners of knocking point about doing a portion of our proceeds for every bottle sold,

going to a different charity. And we were gonna do like a quarterly thing because I just think that there's so many charities out there that really need help and recognition. And the one we chose to start with was his first step of Wayne County, which is a domestic violence shelter for women and children from my hometown and something,

a charity that I've worked with for a bit. My sister works with every single year, so very close to near it and dear to my heart. But I would like to shift over, starting in the month of June and we'll just kind of keep it going as long as it takes. We don't have to do a quarterly thing, but I want to like prove my fan girlness for not only your show, but for like what you do and for Sosa. So starting June 1st, we are gonna switch it on over and those donations will now go directly to Sosa. Thank you so much.

You guys donate to Sosa, please. And if you wanna, you know, double down on it, and you, you know, just buy your riches, we have wine and that donation is gonna go to Sosa as well. So it's like two birds one stone, you know what I mean? Especially for your summer parties. Exactly. Your summer your summer patio parties. Yeah exactly. You're helping to save children and you're drinking wine responsibly with adults. But if you're not a wine drinker just donate to Sosa. That's totally fine too, you know. And so tell everyone the website and anything else that we miss just about SoSaid, not just the TV show.

Sure. Well, you know, SoSaid, we do, you know, a lot of the work that you see is on undercover underage. We do other work as well. So it's like three-armed prevention, intervention and support. Prevention, we speak at schools, we talk to legislators, we do training sessions. Intervention, that's when that's the stuff that you see in undercover underage and support. There are lots of other organizations that do support for survivors of sex abuse really, really well. So we don't want to throw too much weight into that because so many other places are doing a good job. But we do have a fund for therapy for people who have experienced sex abuse. And that's, you know, we fund, I think, standard care sessions, like 16 sessions.

So that's something that we feel really strongly about too. So it's a, so sittegather.org and you can donate there. We do have, I think we're up to like 220 monthly donors. So 220 people that donate every single month, the average donation is $25. The lowest donation is $3 a month. And we have tons of $3 a month donors, which is we're really grateful for.

And you know, you guys keep the lights on and we're very, very efficient. We took $5,000 and we had like five arrests in four days with that $5,000. We're squeezing those pennies. We're doing as much as we can. That's amazing, dude. And I'm curious, and this is probably,

I'm guessing on your website, but what struck a quarter of me was the prevention part. And like, if people, if there are like teachers, principals, you know, superintendents of school districts, what have you, if they are interested in and really want. So, so to come to their school to their organization, something of that nature like do they contact you on the website. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, because I think that should just be something.

I mean, it's so important. You guys like we don't know what these ACMs are capable of. Again, adult contacting a minor. We don't know what these ACMs are capable of, again, adult contacting a minor. We don't know what they're capable of. You can just see, you know, just a, I'm sure it's probably a small bit of it. Like, I'm, you know, just on the TV show because like you said, you're doing this all the time, not just on a TV show that airs like once a year, you know what I mean? And I don't think that I realize as an adult, how easy it is for them to contact these

minors and how innocent these children are. And like we've said a million times, these men are masters of manipulation. Yeah. And I remember one time I was talking to a parent who said, you know, my daughter, he told her to delete all the photos that, you know, she sent him and to delete the text messages and, you know, she really broke our trust. And I remember reframing it for her.

I'm like, what if instead of looking at it like your 10-year-old daughter broke your trust? What if you look at it as this really terrible criminal coerced your daughter? That's on him, not on her. So we also take a very anti-victim blaming stance. And all of our education is really empathy-led. I love talking to high schoolers, high school classes or teachers.

And at some point, we would like to have enough funding to develop a curriculum. So teachers can just have it. Yeah, I was just thinking like when I was in school, we had like dare against drugs. We had like mothers against a mad and sad students can try driving, mother's against drunk struck driving which is like super important. But why isn't there and there should be not saying why isn't there right?

I need the funding for it, but there really should be like an organization curriculum for all students all across the nation. So they can be more aware of this. And also like I just feel like teenagers like they this is going to sound maybe I'm not worried about but like almost like the cool in it like we stand up we are going to help also teach you know our friends not to do this and and to be really strong and I think in our day and age as adults as women like we're just now starting to take a stance in the last few years because of the social media culture that we're in of going, oh yeah, well, I was raped or I was groomed

or I was this, like as adults, we're just now speaking up. So imagine how difficult that could be for a child to speak up on something that, like we said earlier, they could be embarrassed about, they don't want someone mad at them, they don't want to feel awkward. So if there is like a curriculum about that and you get teenagers on board that are like we don't stand for this

I think could be really effective One thing I tell parents to do is that if they let their kids have TikTok make them follow SOSA Not because we need the numbers or the views But because we do share a lot of like try to be relevant information for young people So my kids that have TikTok they're required to follow SOSA So they learn something new when a video pops up. But I think it's important for parents to know and just communities to know in general

that this is not limited to teenage girls. Kids irrespective of gender get targeted. And the most common way I see it with boys is through extortion. And I get calls regularly about boys getting extorted where, you know, they're talking to this really cute girl online, they're going back this really cute girl online. They're going back and forth.

She sends some nudes. He does two. Turns out it's not a cute little girl. It's an extortion ring or some criminal who says your parents need to wire me $1,000 or I'm sending this picture to your coach, to the schools that you applied to, to every single one of your contacts on Instagram,

to every single one of your parents' contacts on Instagram. And that is ruinous for a kid. To the point where there's a story in recent months that a young boy died by suicide the same day he was extorted because you have these private moments exposed because you think you're talking to a peer. And obviously this is C-Sam too, right? Like these people are collecting child sex abuse material. So that's something for important for parents to know too. And I will sometimes

flippantly say to young people like, don't send nudes, don't do it. If you're gonna do it, don't put your face in it, but don't do it, you know. And- And hold onto my girlfriends. Yeah, don't do it and have like your school banner in the background. it, you know. And I told my girlfriends. Yeah, don't do it and have like your school banner in the background, like, you know, but please don't do it. Yeah. But if you're gonna, you know, it's it's kind of that conversation that I have with them because sometimes these people are like, Oh, great picture. Can you do one now full body in front of the mirror so I can see your face too? It's a flag. Huge, huge flag. Okay, so SoSide Together is the website.

It's SOSA again, you guys. And TikTok, it's SoSide Together, correct? Yeah, we're soSide Together everywhere. On all platforms. So everyone, please watch undercover underage is on ID, Discovery ID right now. Season two, we're on episode four. And how many episodes are this season? Eight. Okay, amazing. Oh, I was like, please don't be over, please don't be over. And then, yeah, I mean, go back, watch season two right now, watch season one, and it's on Mondays at 98 Central, yeah. 98 Central. Okay, amazing. And you guys, I'm telling you, this is literally my favorite show on the face of the planet. It just makes me want to like, you know, I'm a social as all my listeners, I am a social justice warrior. I needints and everything I'll see with with your building a curriculum, everything that's associated together stands for.

And everyone please, please, please donate, follow them on TikTok, Instagram, and also you can follow Rue on Instagram as well. Hey. And it's just a real RuPowl. Yeah, Rue underscore pow. But I think I'm like the only RuPowl floating around. I think so. I think I'm easy to find. Yeah, but again, my favorite show, thank you. You're the best. Thank you for doing God's work.

You are incredible and the fact that you're a mother to three and have all of this on your shoulders is just insane. Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for sharing this message. It means a lot. Your support means a lot. I really appreciate it. your shoulders is just insane. Well thank you for having me. Thank you for sharing this message. It means a lot. Your support means a lot. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Well we love you over here at sex love and what else matters and this is important stuff guys. So share this episode with all your friends and follow along with Sosa. And I love you, and I would love to have you one again. Maybe like her on the finale. That'd be so fun. Yes, please, that would be great.

Thank you so much. Okay, awesome. All right, guys, well, we will talk to you next week. Make sure to follow us on social media. You can follow me on all platforms at Kristen Dodie and follow Luke on Instagram at Luke Double underscore, Broadway. Be sure to click the subscribe button

so you can stay up to date with new episodes every single Wednesday. Thanks for listening. See you next week.