Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - Andrew Tate, Baby Reindeer and the myths surrounding male sexuality with Ben Hurst and David Chambers

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

On this week’s episode we’re talking about men. Specifically, masculinity, male sexuality and the myths surrounding it. To that end, Emma was joined by Men’s Dating, Relationship & Intimacy Coach, David Chambers, and the Director of Facilitation at Beyond Equality, an organisation that is rethinking masculinity and engaging men and boys in the gender equality conversation, Ben Hurst. From the impact of Andrew Tate and why his messaging has become so insidious, to the ways in which hit tv show, Baby Reindeer, highlighted how men often feel unable to talk about sexual abuse and harassment and the reasons behind that, to Ben and David’s own relationship to sex growing up and the impact growing up in the church had on their respective feelings of sexual shame, we covered a lot in this discussion. We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did. The next live recording of the Sex Talks podcast is on June 19th and will see us turn our attention to men once again as we discuss what a positive notion of masculinity looks like today and how shedding reductive gender stereotypes can help us all have a better relationship to sex, intimacy and relationships. You can purchase tickets to the event here. And subscribe to the Sex Talks Substack here.

Hello and welcome to the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks exists to engender more honest, open and vulnerable discussions around typically taboo topics, like sex and relationships, gender inequality, and the role technology is playing and changing the way we date, love and fuck. Our relationship to sex tells us so much about who we are and how we show up in the world, which is why I think it's a topic we ought to talk about with a little more nuance and a lot more curiosity. So each week I'm joined by a new guest whose expertise on the topic I'd really like to mind

and do well just that. From writers, authors and therapists to act as musicians and founders, we'll hear from a glorious array of humans about the stuff that gets the heart of what it means to be human. If you want to join the conversation outside of the podcast, sign up to my newsletter via a link in the show notes or come along to a live recording of the podcast at the London Edition Hotel.

Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. I think that boys today are struggling with knowing how to connect with each other and how to connect with other people. And I think those are the kinds of questions that we hear all the time. On this week's episode, we're talking about men, specifically male sexuality and the myths surrounding it. I wanted to have this discussion because while I try to make the conversations we have at sex talks, as inclusive as possible. I'm also aware that we tend to focus pretty heavily on women's

experience of sex and pleasure and intimacy. And as valuable as I obviously believe these discussions to be, I also realise that nothing changes if men aren't part of these conversations too. If we're going to change what I think is our pretty broken sex culture, one entrenched in shame and shrouded in taboo, and if we're going to finally close that orgasm gap, we need men. We need all genders to be a part of this dialogue. I also admittedly wanted to challenge my own, lazy, not particularly well-thought-out assumptions around male sexuality, like the idea that men don't experience anxiety around sex like women do, or that men don't carry sexual shame, particularly around self-pleasure and their bodies like we do. As this conversation showed me, they certainly do.

And I was reminded that we all lose out in some way, thanks to reductive gender norms and a taboo-laden sex culture. So for this very fascinating conversation on sex and masculinity, I was lucky enough to sit down with two pretty exceptional men, David Chambers, who is a men's dating, relationship and intimacy coach, and Ben Hurst, director of facilitation at Beyond Equality, an organization that is rethinking masculinity and engaging men and boys in the gender equality conversation. I left this podcast recording with my mind buzzing with ideas. But there was one thing in particular that really stuck out for me. Talking about men's issues, about men's mental health and well-being,

about men's place in the world, none of these things take away from discussions surrounding women's equality. Nor does talking about the challenges men face today negate focus on the very pressing challenges that women face today too. Right. I hope you enjoy this show as much as I did. Oh, and this episode was recorded live at Soho House. Welcome to Sex Talks. I am joined by men's dating relationship and intimacy, intimacy, into me see, coach, you like that, David Chambers.

And I'm also joined by Ben Hurst, who's the director, recently promoted. Yes, we love that, a facilitation at Beyond Equality, which, for anyone who doesn't know, Beyond a equality's work, they are brilliant. It's a charity dedicated to helping men rethink what being a man means for them and others, and to engage all men in preventing gender-based violence while creating communities that are safe for everyone. Doing the Lord's work over there, Ben. So, I would love to get started, really by hearing a bit more from both of you about the nature of the work that you do. So, David, I'm going to turn to you first. I have actually very, very much. I have actually very seldom. Through sex talks, I've interviewed many sex therapists, sex coaches, etc. And probably

my own internal bias is part of this, but they're all women. And there are very few men working in the space. So tell me a little bit about what you do, who you're speaking to and why you got into it. This is a hard question. We were talking about this yesterday. I really help men have a deeper experience of themselves and the relationships that they have. That's how I see. Also, help men get past some of the blocks and some of the patterns that block them from having the relationships they want, the dating lives they want, or the intimacy and sex they would really desire to have. Because often there's things we want, that we want great sex. Everyone wants great sex, right? But when we don't have the great sex, we don't really know what to do.

We don't know what to do to change it. One of the most common questions ask people when they come to work with me is, hey, so this thing isn't working. What have you tried? Nothing. Okay. that's why I'm here now you're like okay cool but how long is it going on for anything from six months to 15 years you know spoutes people have issues and they've lasted a long time so

I do a lot of helping them with intimacy in particular it is a lot of looking at their patterns and the scripts that run inside the relationships a lot of the men I work around intimacy in relationships so it's like what's the patterns that's happening in your intimacy

and when the things kind of go sideways what's the moment things go sideways What's the feeling? What's the sensation? What's said? What's not said? What do you hide? And then what do you do when it goes sideways? Like, what do you start doing? Do you shut down? Do you withdraw? Do you attack? Do you get critical? And then what does your partner do in those moments? And then we start to like unpick those different places and start to see why, what happened when you were, but younger, when you started having sex in the moment when you think there's some criticism or you perceive criticism because criticism can be very perceived just by a look. You know, you can look at me a certain way and I can think, oh no, she's criticising the way that I'm having sex with her shit. She doesn't want to have sex with me anymore and then suddenly I'm no longer in that moment

and I'm off in my worries and my stresses and we lose connection and then you realize and then I realize that you realized and then, you know, things kind of go downhill from there for a lot of us. And David, why you? Because you were in tech before and you were, I believe,

one of London's top software testers which I then went down. Where did you think that out? Well, then I started Googling what is a software tester? And then how many women are software testing? Yeah, so few. I went down a whole just Googling software testing. But what made you then shift from software testing into different kind of software testing?

Yeah, very different. Human software. So I guess the story is a bit longer. Many years ago, I struggled in my own dating life. You know, I struggled my own day in life. I wasn't meeting sort of women. really want to. So I started reading online and books and all sorts of things and through a very strange turn of events over about two or three months. I found myself coaching men in bars and clubs

in London when I was about 24 years old, working for, as you do. And it was something I just did on the side. I was still working in tech at the time. And I loved it. What I really loved was it was the first time my life. Like I didn't grow up with any kind of father figures. You know, my dad to send me around in my life and I had a stepdad who was extremely useless. So it was a first first time I came together in a group of men where we were really committed to being better and supporting each other and being better and giving each other feedback. So I did this work and I loved it. It was a lot of fun and I got to really understand how humans interact when they're sober, when they're drunk, when they love each other, when they like each other, when they want

to hook up with each other. You know, I could walk in a room and I could look at a group of free people and go, okay, that girl on the left, she's single, those other two in relationships, that guy over there likes that girl. She actually likes him, but he hasn't noticed because I just saw pictures. And then I left that well because I just experienced some clients who I felt didn't love women. My whole thing is I got three sisters. I, you know, raised by my mother. I have a deep love

for women and those who want to love women. And I met a lot of men who didn't. Unfortunately, you know, if not through their own wounding and their experiences of women in their younger years or teenage years. So I left that and I continued in my software testing world. But I kept going to like self-development.

I've always been very interested in self-development. How can I better myself? How can I better myself in the many aspects of my thinking and do that because that's the work I can do. And then I guess there was a point I went traveling for two years. I've traveled around the world for two years. I came back and I was like, okay, I don't like my job because it pays me really well, but I don't enjoy it. I'm really good at it, but I don't enjoy it. And I went to work for a little startup and that was probably the best job. And out of that, a friend of mine, a good friend of mine come to me and said, hey, David, should we start a podcast? I was like, what?

What about? He's like, let's bring all the dating knowledge we have with the self-development knowledge we have because there's a gap. Men are being told what to say and what to do, but they're not being taught their authenticity is what's really going to drive them towards the relationships they want. So I said, yeah, man, let's do it. And that was five years ago. I've recorded probably almost 300 episodes of that podcast since then. And I've evolved just out of daying into relationships and intimacy, study tantra. So yeah, I just have a thirst for learning around human connection and how we connect in the tiniest moments, you know, it's the it's the looks that started

and we often we struggle to understand why that's important you know well I think you can tell so much I think our relationship to sex what happens behind closed doors is so revealing not just your naked body but it's so revealing of our like true insecurities

and I would you know in that most vulnerable moment with someone else it's often the point at which we feel less least equipped to articulate what we need and what we want so you can be a badass boss speech in the rest of your life and then it comes to sex and suddenly you're like oh god like what do i do i do i say i'm going to put a pin and well i actually have many pins on my head now

i kind of had this kind of ongoing board in my head but loads of things you just said there we will return to throughout this conversation but ben i want to turn to you um so i'm interested to know a little bit more about the work that you're doing at beyond equality the nature of the conversations that you're facilitating and the kind of boys that you're talking to who are they What questions do they have? Wow, it's loud. Yeah, so for those of you don't know, hello everyone, by the way.

For those of you don't know, Beyond Equality is a gender equity organisation. So we work across schools, universities, corporate spaces, pro sports teams. Essentially, like, anywhere that men go and they can't get away, like we work there. So, like, we trap them in rooms. And it's interesting to hear you speak, right?

Because we're like the opposite sides of, like, the same critical questioning coin. I feel. And so our organisation, the way I view it is like we're the first touch point that most guys have in conversations around gender and in conversations around masculinity. And obviously people have had conversations about masculinity before. But I mean like real serious like deep diving, thinking about stuff that you maybe have not thought about before kind of conversations. And so in schools, we have conversations with boys from year eight upwards. So about 13 upwards. I feel like that's 13. 12. 13 and really it's like a deconstruction and a reconstruction of masculinities and so I think like for me a big part of the issue with the whole conversation around masculinity is that's just so prescriptive there's like one way of being a man and if you're not that then you're not part of the club and it becomes really difficult for you but even if you are that like it's still quite difficult and so we try to open up spaces where we give guys opportunities to kind of ask those questions about masculinity what is it that you like about this what is it that you don't like about this What serves you, what doesn't serve you, what helps you, what helps your community and what hinders your community around you. And generally when you ask those kinds of questions, obviously not like that, like they're really fun and there's loads of activities and running around and throwing stuff at each other and all that kind of stuff. But when you ask those kinds of questions, most guys will arrive at like relatively healthy conclusions by themselves or in their peer groups. So we try to create those spaces across a range of different like forums for guys to really do that exploration for themselves and with.

each other and I was quite conscious as I prepared this interview I didn't want us to do a deep dive into Andrew Tate at any point because I think he's got given got he's given so much airtime I'm actually like to stop filing the flames however we're just going to do a little quick just I'm curious as you say that and you're talking to these young boys and you just said that actually quite a positive conversation emerges when you begin when you know after whatever games they're playing then they're like okay cool We can talk about this. But I'm interested to know how pervasive is the messaging and the ideology, the hate speech that Andrew Tate has put out into the world amongst the boys that you're working with?

Yeah, it's a good question. It is pervasive. Pervasive is the right word, right? It's like insidious and it gets everywhere. But I think the reason that it is that way is because it resonates with what we already have. Do you know what I mean? like it's not like Andrew Tate's the bad guy I mean Andrew Tate is a bad guy

but Andrew Tate's the bad guy who says the bad things and everybody's just following the Pied Piper it's like the reason that he gets away with saying those things and the reason why people listen is because he's actually speaking to something that we've been told the whole of our lives do you know what I mean like when you think about those scripts of what it is to be a man and what masculinity means

those messages are messages that boys grow up believe in you're meant to be strong you're meant to be tough you're meant to be the hero you're meant to save the day you're meant to get the woman and then it becomes quite corrupted and turns into something that's like really, really harmful and damaging but I don't think anybody really

and it's not just in boys like it's in grown men we find this as well that like loads of people never stop to question where those ideas come from or whether they like those ideas for themselves and for other people and so I guess it gets in in loads of different ways

and it's no different from when we were kids I mean like I remember being 14 and watching South Park and finding it absolutely hilarious. I mean, South Park is still funny, but like, um, you know what I mean, like, it's fucked. Um, so it's like, I remember watching like all of those kinds of things and like stealing my...

Is it? I actually don't, is it? Yeah. Yeah. I haven't watched it. Yeah. I mean, I don't watch it anymore, but it's pretty yeah. Oh. And like, not just South Park, sorry, not to demonise South Park, but like, I remember like stealing my cousins, my older cousins copy of like American Pie and just watching shit that I wasn't supposed to be watching and learning stuff that I wasn't supposed to be learning. And in turn a in it and believing that that was what life was going to be like. Even like the office, the office isn't that bad, but like I just remember really at like 14, 15,

watching all of these things and thinking, oh, that's what my life is going to be like. And so I think when you grow up in this kind of environment with like all of these messages that get fed to us, it is quite weird to then just assume that people are going to one day just develop a critical consciousness and be like, no, Andrew Tate's wrong. We don't believe or agree with any of the things he's saying. and I think boys are told that the reason that that stuff gets to be said is because that's what other people want from them

and so they're seeking some kind of validation usually from women but also from other men to kind of validate their existence in that way and so they're just clean I think boys are young and they're looking for answers you know what I mean and we don't do a great job of giving them no and we'll return to this a little bit later in the conversation but I just wanted to reflect back on that

I interviewed Laura Bates the woman who set up the everyday sexist campaign is totally brilliant actually the last sex talks here at short house and she said kind of mirroring what you've you've just said there ben that none of the messages that we're hearing from you know extremists like agitate anew like misogyny's been around for a while but what is new is the algorithm pumping out their videos to a the like perfect demographic of young men in the most you know extreme kind of way so that his videos have been viewed more than 11 billion times that's more people than that are on the planet and that's the algorithm and the social media

platforms that are largely unaccountable for their huge amounts of power that they wield in terms of getting that messaging out. So I guess that's a shift that we've seen from when we were growing up to what kind of young people are exposed to now. But we'll return to that not to Andrew Tate, as I said, don't want to give the guy too much airtime. We're done with Andrew Tate. I am curious to go a little bit more personal with both of you. So we've heard a little bit about what you do. But I'd be curious to know about your own relationship to sex and sexuality growing up. I mentioned the panel I saw you both speak on before and I was really struck at the kind of vulnerability that both of you demonstrated when speaking about your own

relationship to sex. And it really struck me that I very, very, very seldom hear men talk openly about sex, dating, and relationships. And I think that's a shame. It's this, you know, these topics are so important. It's like the undercurrent of all of our lives. So, David, I'll turn to you first. What was your relationship like to sex and to self-pleasure and your sexuality growing up? Were you always this open? and your ability to talk about intimacy? No. I grew up in a religious household. My mum still goes to church every week.

It was a Pentecostal church when I was young. It was very fire and brimstone. For those of you that know that, you do something wrong. Hellfire! Passed at the front. That was every Sunday for me. Every Sunday. You know, people praying for me and then telling me they've seen signs on God

that I'm going to do this and I've done this thing wrong and that I should repent for a thing that I haven't done yet. I luckily in the whole process was like this is bullocks these people are just trying to control everybody and this is bollocks and I'm getting out as fast as I can

but there was no sex disgust in my house my mum had never talked about sex we've all had that experience sex scene comes on the TV everyone turns to each other and starts talking the TV magically changed his channel and then we return to watching you know I don't know man what it could be I was going to say antique road show but

there's very rarely sexy I remember seeing Crossroads I remember that Britney Spears film. My dad, bless him, took me and my sister to see the preview and didn't realize, I guess, the premise of it. It's all about her having penitre of sex the first time. And for half of the film, my dad was literally like, and me and my sister, we were about 10 and 8. And like, always we kind of knew what sex were, but it was the pain I felt he was in. It was just so excruciating. Anyway, we digress. So you would have the channel be changed. You didn't talk about sex. at home? No, no, I didn't talk about sex at home. Yeah, I guess I would say as a late bloomer

as well, you know, I didn't really have much interest in girls until I got into my late teens. But I kind of was a bit fascinated by sex because it was this thing that no one talked about. And because no one talked about it, I was like, okay, where can I get information? And at that point it was TV, you know, you could watch a show. I remember there being a show, and I think it was called Sex Tips for Girls or something. You used to have couples and used to talk about sexism. used to come on Channel 4 at like 11.30 at night, and I would watch that and listen and learn. And then I guess when I started to get sexually active at school

and then at university, my first girlfriend, I think this is really real benefit, is that we were really just like open to talking about things. So we tried things and be like, how was that for you? Did you enjoy that? That felt strange. I didn't know. I didn't enjoy that.

And I remember, oh, God, can I tell this story? Yeah, I tell this story. were at my family home and my mum was out and my sisters were out it was, you know, it was at middle of day, school day and we were getting sexually active in my bedroom and we say there was a slight rip and tear on my side and it was one of the most excruciately, like the pain is

incredible and for days after that you know, man I didn't want to touch me because I'd get an erection and then I'd be in more pain but we talked about it. you know it wasn't like oh my god this thing happened let's not talk about it she was like are you okay I was like yeah it's bleeding there's blood on the floor you know and then each day

she's like how are you feeling I was like oh it's a little bit of pain here and there and I was like don't feel bad it's not your fault it's just an accident these things happened so I guess this good communication aided me quite well reasonably good communication I was great took me into my early 20s when I was quite experimental with the women I'd meet and I would be really curious about their experience of sex

and what they liked and I'd ask them about other men And they slept with like, how was it? What was good? What did you enjoy? David, where did this come from? If you grew up in the church and you didn't talk about sex at home, I quite a similar background, and I did not know how to communicate. I thought I was going to marry Draco Malfoy from Harry Potter, and I never said anything. How did you become such a great communicator? I guess I was curious. Yes, silently, you know, quietly. It's a different question. The masturbation is like, for all boys, is this shame-ridden thing, right? Because you hear about wanking and it's usually. usually because in my school, I went to a boy's school for a while, and it was like, that boy's a wanker, and wanking is bad. And then I remember saying to him, I was like, Andrew, like, what is wanking? He was like, oh, it's really, you know, you play with your dick.

I was like, oh, you do that. He was like, yeah, it's great. I thought, really? Okay. And I remember one day being like, okay, no one's home, I'm going to try it. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. But equally, I'm suddenly like, this is amazing, but I also feel lots of shame because this is bad and everyone's going to tease me at school if they know. So we tie these two things together

And I've worked with a few Catholic men in particular They have a really special type of sexual shame That's like so deeply rooted in their existence It's very painful for them Where like literally they'll masturbate And these guys either have to shower afterwards Or do something that cleanses them of this shame Or that it's just so shame ridden

They feel sad, they feel depressed afterwards For me it was just this kind of gentle shame And then I kind of realised that it was ridiculous in my 20s but there was no sex education there was no conversations in my house like I've got three sisters I've got an older sister like we never talked about sex

I guess I was just I guess I wanted to be good that was my thing I was like I want to be good and how I'm going to be good at sex yeah so how I'm going to be good at sex is by talking to the women I have sex about sex and I didn't feel

there was anything particularly shameful about that inherently for whatever reason and it meant that you know, I had some wonderful conversations and experiences with some of the women I slept with early because we would literally lie in bed and I'd be like, how does that feel? That feel good. I have to just note that it's refreshing to hear you say, refreshing a little bit depressing, but to hear you say that wanking was, you know, in some so much shame, because I think there's such a big conversation now around female pleasure

and I think there's been such a growth in the sexual wellness industry that has really put female pleasure front and centre as it should be and I think there's been such a taboo around female like self-pleasure for so long I know growing up at school no one talked about self-pleasure but I felt it was kind of kosher and normal for the boys to wank and that was kind of socially acceptable but for girls that wasn't something we did and actually I think then naively I don't think I recognise that there was still that shame associated with boys wanking

and obviously when you think about the ridder's shame that comes into that as well there's such a kind of that melting pot of bodily disconnection that happens for all of us I guess from a young age and then what about you you also grew up in a religious household I did yeah again same side of a or different side of the same coin

but maybe same side of the same coin I grew up in church I've got mum dad three older sisters at home which is not really relevant to this part of the story actually I don't know why I just told you that also can I just say my partner's daughter is here so this is a little bit awkward

but also it's chill because we talk about this stuff at home all the times it's fine but I guess in regards to like learning about sex and sexuality I grew up in a church environment and it was the same kind of vibe do you know what I mean like it was just

a taboo wasn't something that we were supposed to talk about definitely not something we were supposed to be doing which is like weird because I went to like the best church youth group ever in the history of of all of the church youth groups that have ever existed. It was, honestly, it was, like, so good.

And they used to have, like, relationships nights every month, and we'd talk about, like, wait until marriage and, like, what sex is supposed to be, like, in marriage, and not having sex until you're married, and, like, not masturbating, and all of those kinds of things, and fighting temptation. So it wasn't that we weren't having any conversations about it. It was just, like, the sex education we were getting

was probably better than the stuff we were getting in school, but just wasn't very good. And I think, for me, I, later on, went to seminaries. I went to a Bible college and studied to be a pastor. I did a degree in theology. And I got kicked out when I... Do you lose your virginity? When I gave my virginity away?

Is virginity even a real thing? But when I had... We don't really say lose virginity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so I say penitious sex. That's why I didn't say it. But I got kicked out when I had penetrative sex for the first time. Which was like a weird experience. Because it was like all of the stuff that I'd learned

growing up about what happens when you have sex. It's bad. And you're not supposed to do it outside of marriage like actually came through and it was like I was excommunicated I wasn't part of the community anymore all of my friends wouldn't talk to me my mom wouldn't chat to me for like a month which was super awkward my mom knew which was horrible and and that was also like a weird experience because that was my first time having penetrated sex but I was maybe 21 years old and so I felt like I was kind of late to the game and I think that I dealt with a lot of same way a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, even before sex, like to do with masturbation and all of that

kind of stuff, like, there was just a real feeling of like every time, we used to call it bashing, which is a weird way of describing it. But yeah, but every time you would bash in inverted commas, it was like a wave of like guilt and shame that would come over you afterwards and you kind of just get out of the situation and like pretend it didn't happen. And I had like some friends that I would talk to about at church and some friends who I talked to her about at school. but it was just a super awkward experience and throughout that time I'd had like

unofficial girlfriends and like been seeing people and dated people and stuff and we'd always like gone to the edge and not gone too far and that was like a weird experience as well because it wasn't something we were supposed to talk about so we didn't talk about it and I think the time that I realised that it like had to change was probably I got a job working for a sex education charity

a Christian sex education charity which is like a misnomer actually but they were like teaching so we'll go around schools in South London and the messaging was like sex is best within committed faithful relationships whatever those look like for you so it wasn't specifically about marriage

but it was about like still abstaining waiting and then all of the actual good sex ed stuff so stuff around STI's pregnancy emotional connection all of that kind of stuff and I think when I was training for that job I realized that like nobody had ever had those conversations

with me do you know what I mean like I was I was literally like by was that oh everyone's chatting shit like literally nobody knows what they're talking about and everybody's just making this up with other people around them and so for me I think that was kind of a weird form of liberation because it was still quite repressive in lots of ways like I still

had a weird relationship to sex and sexuality at that point because I was still in faith but a real realization that like that sexuality is yours and you own it do you know what I mean and you get to do what you want to do with it as long as other people consent of course

but that exploration is that something to enjoy and something to be valued and so I think from that point onwards relationships became like very different and I think at the start it was still really awkward and still really weird but acknowledging yeah yeah yeah yeah oh my gosh unshackling from the shame and that guilt because I think as you both just reflected on there when you learn to associate sexual pleasure with shame yeah and so that sensation literally is the trigger then for kind of being awash with guilt and with shame it's a hard thing to unlearn that's a hard thing to get rid of i remember the first time i masturbating the shower i and i was religious and very very god fearing and i was 12 and i just from thinking oh my god he's seen he's seen he's watching me and i went to bed feeling terrible god had watched me

masturbate the shower head and i was shook with the shower head it's the shower head And I never did. I didn't do again. Like I was so racked in that shame around and I mean, you know, for some voyeurism is kind of hot. I don't think I would turn me on now. But back then like, you know, God voyeurism ain't the one. God voyeurism is not hot. That is not a turn out. Actually, that's true. Not even now with that term me on. I'm interested to know. So you both, as I say, reflected on the ways in which kind of shame and guilt play a big part in your respective kind of relationship to sex. Something has been on my mind recently, I watched baby reindeer, a lot of. alongside everyone else in the country slash world. Has everyone else here seen it? Yes, okay. Everyone, yes? Just so, okay, I have my explanation for those who haven't. If you need it, I think I know back.

Okay, so for those who haven't seen it, the show follows a struggling comic as he is relentlessly harassed and stalked by women for more than four years and comes to terms of being sexually abused in a nutshell. It's a problematic show for many reasons, as people now know, Piers Morgan, is a central role in that.

But what I found really interesting is the way of explored male sexual shame, particularly around abuse. And I was struck that male sexual abuse charities have in the aftermath of the screening of baby reindeer seen a really notable increase in calls. One charity in particular called We Are Survivors reported an 80% increase in first-time callers

asking about the support the charity offers. 80%. The CEO and founder of the charity, Duncan Greig, said he's never seen a response like it. Now, I'm interested with that. What do you think are the kind of cultural myths surrounding male sexuality that we should be thinking about in order to understand why men might not want to come forward when they've experienced sexual abuse or sexual harassment? I think the first one we get a lot with men is, oh, you wanted it. you're lucky he got lucky right that's a lot of what we say right to men oh men get lucky i love to know how much funding that charity gets because i know for something like that funding doesn't reach

to them they probably don't get that much funding right because it's a male centric um sexual abuse cherry people aren't interested they're like oh men do all this all the time that would literally be people why aren't why aren't people interested because i guess it's how we see men and we see them as sexual predators, right? That's basically the way we see men. With the assumption that all men are sexual predators and then after that he used to prove himself that he's not. And I understand completely why that's the case, right? Because of what men do constantly, daily, weekly, hourly by the minute. But that weighs really heavily on guys, especially because we always think of kind of sexual predators and we think of those guys and then we go, oh,

all men are like that. And I guess in my work I speak to a lot of men who are so far removed from that, that they're, like, sexually passive. I wonder if there's another word for, like, the opposite of passive, where they just, like, um... Shriveled. Where they recoil away from sex. Better, recoil. They recoil away from sex.

And, you know, it couldn't be true for them. I guess it's, we don't see them as victims. Like, police would laugh at you. Police would say, oh, it's not, you know, what are you saying? Like, friends may laugh at you. There's not an empathy or sympathy for them, right? when they experience it like I you know we think of um boys who especially like underage boys that have sex with teachers which is something that is pretty common right but we still at the

boys around them will be kind of like yeah brav nice one you done well there you know even was it the recent woman the teacher the newspapers what do they say teacher has sex with students yeah and I think I thought actually was what baby reindeer did so well is that both can be true at once. Yes, a lot of men, enough men, are sexual predators, and we know the statistics are terrible in terms of rape, sexual harassment. One in three women has been sexually harassed at some point in their life. We know how many rape cases don't even make it to court,

how women aren't believed, how women don't feel confident to come forward. That can all be true, and men can also be victims of sexual violence. Men can also feel unable to speak out about themselves. and I thought that's what, because the main character of Baby Rainier is kind of complicated and you kind of don't like him but then you kind of feel really sorry for him and I think that's where I think sometimes our public discourse and our conversations around

our feminist conversations even can fall short and there's a lack of nuance in being able to understand the both and it's reductive right? Completely Ben did you have something to ask that? Yeah no I loved Baby Rainier and I mean it's very very problematic but I think it deals with nuance in a really nice in quite a beautiful way

which is like an ugly kind of beauty you know what I mean like you're watching it and you're on like episode four and like fuck I don't want to watch this anymore but it's also very very necessary as we see from the statistics right there's a TED talk that I always talk about whenever I speak I always say watch if you haven't seen before watch Tony Porter's TED talk

a call to men in the talk he speaks about this idea of the collective socialisation of men which is like super super poignant and he calls it the man box and he says inside this box there's all of these ideas of what men are supposed to be to be real men in society and either you're in or you're out so it's got things in it like

being dominant, being in control being a decision maker being strong, being courageous, being bold not being like a woman, being attracted to women, not being like a gay man, not being gay, not asking for help,

so many like different stereotypes and characteristics and I think we see that really play out when it comes to like sex and sexuality and specifically in this example the thing that really stuck with me was like how long it took him to go to the police station and seek help? Do I mean? I think for men, like you were saying, that men are not seen as victims of sexual violence,

only often seen as perpetrators. And I think there's sometimes even a complicated reality that in lots of cases, men are both. Do you know what I mean? Like, sometimes they're victims and perpetrators of sexual violence. But I think there are so many barriers that men have in the ways that they're taught to be and in the ways that they're expected to be

by everybody else around them, that means that when they do need help or they do have questions. They're not supposed to seek that or ask those questions. And then there's a bunch of stereotypes that get applied to sex, right? So like when it comes to sexual relationships,

you're meant to be the dominant partner. You're meant to know everything. You're not meant to figure out how sex works with another person. You're meant to be good at it the first time immediately. You're meant to know how it works and do it to the other person. Sex isn't something you share in.

It's something that you do. It's the action that you take against another person. And so it becomes, I think, very, very complicated for guys when we're trying to like unpack all of that stuff. And like you said, it's unlearning, right? Because I think also women are affected by the same stereotypes, you know? Well, I was about to say, I think as you said that, Ben,

I just thought we're all so, we all lose out from these reductive gender stereotypes. And when I think about sex, I always make this very, very unfortunately unattractive analogy, but bear with me. But that we all wear these backpacks of anxiety when we go into sex. Sexy, huh? So there you are, naked with your backpack. on, filled with anxieties, thinking that the person you're sleeping with is anxiety-free. They're cool as a cucumber.

They know what they're doing. They know their experience. They're more experienced than you. And then we don't share the load that we're carrying. And yet we're both there carrying that weight, carrying that weight of expectation that is often so associated with our gender. And I think, or the performance of our gender as gender is a construct. But I think, as you were saying that, like thinking about the, that's very much the way I

felt I grew up thinking about sex, that sex was something that like the man, it wasn't a conversation between me and a partner. It was, I was there to please a man because my job was to make a man come because sex is all about making a man come, but also they're kind of in control and they're in charge. So if it hurts, it's kind of, you know, just suck it up. If it doesn't feel great like, oh, you know, it's something wrong with me. It's never, and I think to know, to reflect back now on my earlier sexual experiences and recognize that half the we're probably feeling exactly the same way and it could have been so much better for both of us

if we'd been like hey I have no idea what I'm doing and so I really do think we do we all really lose out when we're all kind of straight-jacketed by these expectations now I think with that in mind we're going through what feels like such a big kind of transition at the moment with regards to gender relations and gender roles more broadly and I think just in terms of the roles that we take on

I mean, there was a survey, a social attitude survey done by the Natsl, the National Centre for Social Research. It was done a few years ago, but it found that 72% of people disputed the conservative view that women should dedicate themselves to housework compared to 58% 10 years earlier. As recently as 1988, 48% felt a woman's place was in a home and only a third disagreed with the traditional model of family life. So if you think in the long arc of history, we've changed quite a lot quite quickly with regards to our expectations of men and women. Now, in the same breath as discussing this kind of shifting gender roles,

it's become increasingly common to bring up this so-called Christ of masculinity. And oh my God, I've been down a whole, listening to every podcast about Christ's masculinity I could find, reading every article. And they all are oriented around the same point. that as gender roles shift, men are collectively losing a sense of purpose and identity and feeling disjointed and kind of lacking in that sense of a social script to follow

because the traditional one no longer works. More women than ever, more women than men are going to university, are graduating with better grades. Gender pay gaps still a thing. There are still many inequalities, which we will go on to later because I do want to acknowledge them. But things are changing very rapidly and men are, you know, there seems to be this kind of collective sense that, well, what do we do? What's our purpose? What do you think are the most pressing issues facing young men today? But I'm actually going to go to you first, the boys that you work with. What are the most pressing issues facing young men today? An organisation called Equimundo released a study last year, I think the tail end of last year, that was like a report on men. I think it was in the US, but they also work in the UK. And their big finding was that the biggest issue that men and young men are facing today is loneliness. And actually, like, finding spaces to have community and finding connection.

I think exacerbated, obviously, by the pandemic and, like, the migration of everything online, so that all of our interactions with people are online. I think that boys today are struggling with knowing how to connect with each other and how to connect with other people. And I think those are the kinds of questions that we hear all the time, like. The narrative is always like, how do I chat to girls? How do I tell someone I like them? How do I get someone to date with me?

How do I get someone to date me? When you speak about that sense of purpose that people are lacking, I think boys are looking quite actively for a script, hence the pool towards like an Andrew Tate or a misogynist online influencer who's telling them what it means to be a man. He's giving them something to aspire to, saying, even if it's fucked up, you're not a man unless you have a Bugatti. And then they're like, oh, I'm going to get a Bugatti,

and then I'll be a man and I'll know. And I think in the UK in particular, like, we don't have any rights of passage, really, for our young people, which means that there's no point where we affirm someone's masculinity. There's no moment when we're like, son, you're a man now. And again, slightly reductive. I'm not sure if it always has to be that. But I do think there's something important about marking that transition from boyhood to manhood. Because manhood is like the first thing that gets taken away from men. Do you know what I mean? Every time someone does something wrong, he's not a real man. Real men don't do. that. Real men are not like that. And so it's constantly, as a man, you're constantly under threat of having your manhood revoked. And I think actually making moments where we say, now you've transitioned, and then

it's about being a good man or not being a good man. Do you know what does it look like to be a good man? How do you model that? How do you decide what that is for yourself? And I think actually that's the beauty of these conversations is that for our young people, they are, as much as like the social norms have changed and things have been

stripped back and taken away from them, they're at a point in history where they're allowed to decide these things for themselves and there are resources around them that will help them to make those decisions do you know i mean if you want to go to university people will help you go to university in this country anyway and so on and so forth so i think actually it's about inspiring that reimagination of what masculinity can be for boys i asked everyone on instagram what they thought when i said kind of what are you thinking about when you think about patriarchy when you think about kind of shifting gender norms and quite a few people

people came back to me and said, I seldom hear about masculinity being discussed outside of the context of toxic masculinity, and that worries me. David, is that something that's coming up with the men that are coming to you? Is that what you feel aware of? Do you think this term toxic masculinity is a helpful one? What does it kind of mean and I guess feel like to you? Yeah. Men don't want to talk about masculinity because there's a sense and feeling that it's going to get onto a conversation about toxic masculinity and then there's a kind of underlying feeling I think as men and I've talked to quite a few

with my clients about this is like when someone says toxic masculinity it's almost like you're like not me not me but you feel this sense of attack whether it's logical or illogical right there's a kind of sense internal feeling of like is someone coming for me is someone coming for me

and do I need to be aware is there something I did in the past I didn't know or did I do something just now and it creates a defensiveness you know rightly or wrongly it creates a defense in this. Like I've read, you know, Richard Reeves talks about it in his book about toxic medicine and about the research that shows that it's not actually useful terms, especially

for young boys. I don't think it opens conversation to men. I don't think it invites men into a conversation because it's usually you're bad. You lot, all you man them there, you're all bad. Done. Let's move on. And where do we go from now? And you need to change. But there's not

what it always, always lacks is, and what it creates is all those behaviors are bad. but then there's a massive void of what they should be doing or what is better and what is more helpful and more nourishing to themselves and the rest of the world. And that's what we have a lot of, a lot of void. There's a lot of void of men who are like, okay, I want to be better,

but I don't know how to, and I don't want to talk about what I've been doing because then maybe, you know, I can lose my job or my wife wants to leave me or something, or there's a problem that really comes up. So I'm full too ashamed because I don't know what I meant to be doing, doing and I don't know if I was doing bad things before or I think I probably did a few things

before I didn't know I'm feeling shame but I feel shame I don't know about where to go so the term how do I say for me I understand the term and the term points to some behaviours which is useful right because we need to be able to point but the it has it I feel like it's just like ballooning constantly and taking up like oh if someone's assertive that's toxic masculinity if a man you know, gives his opinion that's toxic masculinity. It's just taking up everything that a man could possibly do and it suddenly becomes toxic masculinity.

You know, I remember seeing, I think it was in The Guardian, again, don't quote me, it was like a study that said that it said something about women feeling if a man goes up to a bar and goes up to talk to them, like a large, it was like 30 or 40% of them felt that man talking to him in a bar was harassment.

Right? And then it went on a bit about kind of toxic masculinity. I remember thinking as someone who works in dating, you're like, Like, this is dangerous because people are dying for connection, like Ben said. And now we're pointing to the avenues for connection is associated with toxic masculinity and harmful behavior. And like, obviously, it's the way you do it, right? There's a whole way in which you do it. But a lot of men just read that and go, okay, I don't do that because I don't want to be one of those guys.

So, um... It's interesting to note, you mentioned that Richard Reeves, who wrote a brilliant book. What's it called again? Of boys and men. Of boys and men. And explores the kind of current crisis masculinity and a lot of depth and a lot of detail. I would highly recommend it to everyone here.

Very good book. But one of the things he says is to your point that we've done, but a lot of conversations happening now about articulating what toxic bad masculinity is but nothing that then is saying, okay, this is a model for how things could be better. And he says he admits, actually,

there's a piece, I was reading just today, and he had spoken to the journalist, and he'd said, admittedly, I didn't articulate what a positive notion of masculinity is in the book because I felt out of my depth doing that and it feels like a personal thing and I didn't know how to approach it and I think there's also that fear of then

outlining a notion of masculinity that then some people don't agree with and that being deemed as problematic. And it made me wonder, do we need to have a model of positive masculinity or is it better for us to be speaking about positive human traits? Do we risk gender essentialism when we do talk about positive versus negative masculinity?

I personally come from a school of, and this comes from some of my kind of my tantra learnings, it's like masculinity and femininity are not necessarily like men own masculinity and only men can express masculinity. I don't look it that way. There's like a, you know, from my learnings of going through tantra and so forth is that, you know, the masculine is like action doing and the feminine is receptive, receiving energy. and we're all in this space constantly. The gender part of masculinity and femininity is a social thing, which is slightly different.

But I think we could just reduce everything down to human traits, but ultimately gender is important to people. Being a man is meaningful to men. So most men, being a man is meaningful. We've taught them their whole lives that it's meaningful. So if you want to go and tell all the men like now, suddenly being a man is meaningless and so forth, but we still have a whole world outside of here,

where being a man looks like this and being a woman looks like that and it's very much like ingrained in us from a young age like I'm having my partner's eight months pregnant and I, me and her often are like wow you see how like we were looking at baby clothes the other day

in John Lewis boys clothes two racks that look pitiful pitiful clothes yeah the little girl stuff racks on racks on racks of girls clothes and I was like wow before they're born we're teaching them how boys look doesn't really matter and their clothes are generally pretty bland and boring.

And the girl stuff is like copious. And I was like, wow, this is, to see this already occurring. So it's like it's so ingrained in us that we can't necessarily get away from kind of gender in our society and masculinity and femininity. I think the key for me is everyone has to take a bit of responsibility. Every individual person and an organization has to take responsibility. I include media and newspapers and stuff because, like, how often are men like myself and Ben and lots of the other wonderful men doing wonderful work in the world featured in a newspaper in comparison to Andrew Tate?

Like, how often, you know? I would say, though, the majority of people writing a men around, like, politics and a lot of... Men dominate podcasting, men do dominate across the board in the public sphere, so I don't think there's a lack of men having voice. lack of men, it's a lack of the organization caring because really media organizations are about getting clicks, right? About getting people's eyeballs on things. But if you have a bunch of guys

who are really great guys and talking about being a great man, you're not clicking on it. People, people click emotionally. Do you think so? Do you think that's true? If you go to the Guardian and look at every day there's like a most clicked bit at the bottom, it's the things that trigger people the most. Always. It's the emotional like click. Like, oh, Andrew, Chase's done something, he says something about women, people click on it. Like, if there's an article about great masculinity and great examples of it, it's like the good news, what's it?

The good news movement. The good news movement, like, compared to the sun or, like, some other newspaper. It's, we are very emotional beings and we don't always acknowledge that in the way that we move through the world. Can I, okay, if I jump in? Because I feel, I feel a bit like an MRA here, like, it's a bit icky to me.

Like, sorry, men's rights activist. Like, I feel like I'm like, like instantly in the conversation do you know what I mean involuntarily celebrity I don't feel a bit like a femme cell yeah yeah yeah

and I and I think actually like movements like that have their place I think they're incredibly problematic and cause lots of harm also but I think that again they speak to something which is this issue that men are looking for something

they're looking for something to identify with for me I think I'm not sure I like wholeheartedly agree with the point so when we were talking about toxic masculinity Toxic masculinity for us as an organisation is a term that we don't use that we don't walk into a room and talk about toxic masculinity

mainly because it just pisses people off and shuts the conversation down but I don't think that's because of the term I think it's because there are a lot of people talking about it without knowing what they're talking about and in my experience they always say like if you can't explain something to a child then you don't really understand it and I feel like toxic masculinity is that kind of thing

you know what I mean where we use the word when we don't like a man or like he did this thing on a day and that's toxic or you did this thing and that's toxic or whatever but actually like I was reading Bell Hooks the other day shout out to Shanahu cussed me for having that on the reading table

in the living room but there's a portion in the book where she's talking about labelling things and she goes into this like little bit where she's talking about imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy and the importance of like using those words to describe

the systems that are around us Because if you don't use the words to describe the problem, then you're not talking about anything. Like you can't identify what the thing is. And I think the value of the toxic masculinity conversation is that it gives us something to point to and say, oh, that's that thing. And that is important also, right? Because there are elements of masculinity that are toxic. There are elements of masculinity like traditional societal, constructed masculinity. So things like being strong, being brave, being a provider, being a protector.

All of those things can be really good if that's what you want for yourself. if that's what you want for your community. But also, all of those things can become corrupted and be really bad and turn into control or dominance or power over other people. And so I think labelling the thing, whilst I wouldn't do it in practice, because I think there's more creative ways to get to the conversation, like the conversation is so important. And so, like, when it comes to this conversation around toxic masculinity

and how that shows up for men, I think, like, sometimes these conversations can feel a little bit like, oh, like, woe is me, it's so sad for, the men. And the reality is, like, it is sad for men. Like, it's, like, outcomes for men are in the gutter, you know what I mean? It's shit. It's shit really today to be a man in terms of, like, history. But when you think about the reasons why... Do you think that's true? I think, I think it is shit, but the reasons why is because the construct is falling apart. So when you talk about, um, is it better to have no version, like, is it better to talk about positive personhood? In my opinion, yeah, like, you, if you feel like you're a man, then you're a man,

and if you were born a boy in inverted commas and then you grow up and you grow into a man but what does that mean because I think actually what we often do is attach even when you're talking about the masculine energy being doing and being active like we attach all of this

positive stuff to masculinity that doesn't necessarily really belong there do you know what I mean like we turn it into masculinity is something to aspire to and something that should be celebrated and something that's amazing but it's not it's just being a man it's just like being an adult man And so actually, like, maybe masculinity is just a thing

and then the way that we practice it, the way that we do it, is either positive or negative. I just keep having to come back to what we said earlier on the conversation about the both and, because I am listening to you, and on the one hand, I agree, and I've been immersed in my world of Christ's masculinity today and know the stats and suicide rates, monks, young men,

you know, as you say, the loneliness, issues of not being able to come forward around sexual shame and then I look at statistics like there's more men called like Michael and Chris as CEOs and there are women as CEOs and I think that you look at the kind of the infrastructure of societal power and it's still very much run by men

you look at the violence against women and girls and we know that it was declared in June last year a national crisis because it's so bad here in the UK because one woman is killed every three days at the hands of a man. And I don't think that means that we shouldn't then have a conversation to your point around how things can be better for men. But I have to catch myself when I hear those things. I catch myself feeling like, hang on a second, why aren't there more women to CEOs? And I think that's probably where the conversation often does break down, because both things can be true at once.

We can need to have more women represented positions of power in politics. You know, across the board, in music everywhere. We need more women in more positions of power. You know, we need women to feel safer. We need women to be safer. But we also need men to be safer. We also need men to be happy. We also need men.

And I think that the truth in this is that we all benefit. And we said that earlier on the conversation that we're all full victim to the kind of straight jacketing of gender. And I do think that's very true. But I can see why these conversations are really hard to have publicly because I can even feel in this context. I do, I like bristle at certain things. I'm like, oh, but what about the women? And actually, David, I just think back when I saw that conversation that you were part of

a couple months ago, and there was something you said that really stuck with me. You said that men haven't had their own kind of sexual revolution and don't have kind of their own form of feminism. And there is, you know, these sorts of movements come out of oppression, and women have had to bind together through feminism in all its iterations that exist now,

in order to win the right to vote, to win some power that we have been deprived of throughout history. But I do think there is something in men not having a positive movement that is about championing one another, supporting one another, and it's really about what it means to be, to kind of have a positive role model, which is the same thing as before us. What would a men's sexual revolution look like today?

I mean, can you imagine it? Wow. I guess it's slowly happening, right? But it's not a kind of really together movement. You know, we're seeing male sex toys appearing in ways that we never did before. For example, men are talking about sex more and more. But it is happening very slowly. And it's really needed, you know.

Men have a very narrow lane of how they should be. And, you know, feminism gay women, like, exploded their lane open into the many hundreds of lanes that they can take in their lives. but the lengths of men are still pretty narrow and we all think those we all have that in our minds about how men should be a lot of the time so I think it's one of these weird things

when I think about it's because you think okay well if men are to have a sexual revolution then men have to start the sexual revolution and then men are in power so those men could easily start that sexual revolution and then it's like do they care do they want to like are men oppressed enough that they would rise up enough

or is it that the men who are so oppressed are just so oppressed. They're kind of rising up against themselves. Yeah, and they're blaming. And also, it's this way in which we always get to, it's the others' fault. Like, this is one of the things I really hate about a lot of the kind of the masculinity influences,

the less positive ones, is this kind of like pointing at women and blaming women. And it's like, well, it's not really women's fault. I don't think it is. Yeah, and I have these conversations. Guys have had power for long time. It's like, how can you empower yourself? And I think that's it.

Like, you know, I've been on. and run men's retreats with people and the key thing is, and I see in these spaces, and I've been in sexuality workshops and so forth with men, and it's about empowering self, because when self is empowered to express

to communicate, then those in our vicinity become automatically more empowered, because we're communicating, we're speaking, and we've created a space for others to do so, so I actually don't know what I thought about it after that night, what would it look like for a male sexual revolution,

I think it would be like really coming and being almost proud of our desire proud of our sexuality and not automatically looking at ourselves as like we are

even predators to certainly be because there's so many men who shy away from sex and sexuality because they don't want to be like that and it's like can we find this this healthy lane of sexual expression and desire as a man that can be celebrated and feels good and is healthy in its communication

and its connection with others and I guess that is a lot of the kind of what I would say like the root of kind of men's work is like how can men be more connected you know connection is the key connection is the key for men because this is the thing we socialise out of

do you worry that for as long as we lack this I guess more nuanced conversation around positive masculinity and it's nuanced many kind of many shades that we've discussed this conversation, that we are going to accidentally end up rowing back on a lot of the progress that we've made

and end up reverting back to a lot of the kind of traditional gender roles that were so entrenched for a long time. And I say this, obviously the week following Harrison Bucher, you know, the Chiefs footballer in the US, who gave a remarkable speech at the commencement speech at Bernardine College. just a few of his comments Pride month is a deadly sin

his wife would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as a mother and ultimately I think there's you the women he said who have had the most diabolical lives told to you some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world this was a graduation speech

but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world what I actually found quite interesting about that just to quickly finish that. It was a woman who was graduating alongside Bukka, I hope he said it all right,

who took to Twitter to note, yeah, it was fucking terrible. Some of us did boo. Me and my roommate definitely did. There was a standing ovation, but, sorry, there was a standing ovation from everyone in the room except from me, my roommate and about 10 to 15 other women. So yes, there was a big backlash in social media,

but in that room people were clapping, and I think the fact that he said it publicly at a commencement should be, he isn't just thinking that alone. He's reflecting the views of him and his friends and people around. Do you worry that we are reversing back into this quite archaic way of thinking about gender? Listen, I don't know if we're reversing. I think that's just where we are.

Do you know what I mean? I feel like the big thing about these types of conversations is that sometimes we try and have them and we're addressing symptoms rather than addressing the issue. And the reality is that like in our society, men, women, trans people, non-binary people, people of whatever genders they are all live in patriarchy and so while we're living in patriarchy it's always going to be patriarchy

and I think like when you were talking about like the sexual revolution the argument that my guy was making is crazy because it's the kind of argument where you... Harrison, whatever's name is, it's the kind of argument you make that can never be disproven because fundamentally

the core of the argument is we don't listen or believe, we don't listen to or believe what women say. no matter how many women say no that's not my reality you don't believe them because you think that they don't know what they're talking about so it's self-perpetuating you can never win an argument like that and I think when you're talking

about the sexual revolution like in my eyes men's sexual revolution is porn men's sexual revolution that has happened is living in a world where you can solicit sex but you can't you can't sell it because if you sell it that's illegal do I mean like there's so many things in the construct that we live in

that mean that actually the only solution is, like, radical dismantling. And actually, like, to get to a version of masculinity or femininity that can be inherently, like, positive and healthy and good for everyone, like, we have to dismantle those systems. Otherwise, it's just going to keep perpetuating itself. And while we all culturally, like, grow up learning that men are this and women are that, and men are supposed to be this and women are supposed to be that, and there's nothing in between and nobody else exists,

and if you don't do these things, then you're not valid. like there is no way of arriving at an end goal but here's a really good version of it because it's always going to become corrupted and tainted I think until we address that power imbalance then we're a little bit fucked really and case in point we're listening to commencement speeches that just don't make any sense

so it's crazy in one line to wrap this up before we have a break what is one thing that we can do to get more men involved not just in the conversations but as actually active participants fighting for gender equality, which benefits all of us. One line. One line.

We can educate men, not in the way that we've been educated, but in a way that is explorative and reflective about power and privilege and patriarchy and their own positionalities and get them to actually think about who they are in the world. And fingers crossed, that will start to shift the dial a little bit. they'll start arriving at some better and healthier conclusions, I would say. Wonderful. David? Curiosity about judgment. Curiosity about judgment so that we can explore and talk about the things that we've done, which we think are good or bad, where the other person is curious and not necessarily judgmental and create more and more spaces.

When I say spaces, that can be a relationship, that can be a workplace, that can be a workshop where there's curiosity about judgment, and that allows people to open up more and more because their defences can slowly drop down. Beautiful final answers, both of you. Thank you. A huge round of applause for David and Ben. Thank you so much for listening to today's Sex Talks podcast, with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. If you'd like to attend a live recording of the podcast, check out the event bright link in the show notes, as we have lots of exciting live events coming up.

You can also keep up to date with everything coming up at Sex Talks, get my sporadic musings, via the Sex Talk substack. I've also popped that link into the show notes. And over on Instagram, where I'm at Emma Louise Boynton. And finally, if you enjoyed the show, please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to this on, as apparently it helps others to find us. Have a glorious day.