Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - Celibacy, boundaries, self-trust and... learning how to flirt with comedian and author Sofie Hagen

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Sofie Hagen is a multi award winning, queer, non-binary comedian, author and podcaster. Their debut book was called Happy Fat: Taking Up Space in a World That Wants to Shrink You and they have just published their second book ‘Will I Ever have Sex Again.’ In it, they examine our broader sexual landscape in an attempt to understand why they haven’t had sex in some 3000 days and counting. Sofie joins Emma to discuss everything they’ve learned from over nine years of (involuntary) celibacy, what it’s taught them about their own body, boundaries, and queerness, and why they’re not all that bothered if they go another nine-years without sex. Plus, find out what Sofie learned about 1800 other people’s sex lives, not to mention the lessons imparted by a renowned flirtologist. 

Before we start, we wanted to let you know that in this episode, sexual abuse is discussed. So please take a break if you need to, and we've added details on the show notes for organisations who can offer support. Hello and welcome to the Sex Talks podcast, with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks exist to engender more honest, open and vulnerable discussions around typically taboo topics, like sex and relationships, gender, inequality. and the role technology is playing and changing the way we date, love and fuck. Our relationship to sex tells us so much about who we are and how we show up in the world, which is why I think it's a topic we ought to talk about with a little more nuance and a lot more curiosity. So each week, I'm joined by a new guest whose expertise in the topic I'd really like to mind,

and do well just that. From writers, authors and therapists to actors, musicians and founders, we'll hear from a glorious array of humans about the stuff that gets the heart of what it means to be human. If you want to join the conversation outside of the podcast, sign up to my newsletter via the link in the show notes, or come along to a live recording of the podcast

at the London Edition Hotel. Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm talking about this. Like, I've never even thought about this before until you asked the question. In this episode of the podcast, I sat down with multi-award-winning, queer, non-binary comedian, author and podcaster Sophie Hagen. Their debut book was called

Happy Fat, taking up space in a world that wants to shrink you. And they've just published their second book, Will I Ever Have Sex Again? In it, Sophie sets out to understand why they haven't had sex in 3,000 days in counting, what their personal experiences might reveal about our broader sex culture. As ever, with subject matter as broader sex, we covered a lot of round over the course of the evening. But there were a few themes that cropped up during our discussion that really stuck with me. Chief amongst them was a topic of, well, good sex, what that really means and looks like. As Sophie pointed out, in order to have truly pleasurable, enjoyable sex, we need to feel fully present in our bodies, which means we need to feel safe. We need to know that we can say

stop if we wanted to stop. We need to feel assured that the person we are with will be responsive to our needs when we communicate them, and in turn we need to know what our needs are in order to be able to communicate them in the first place. And fundamentally, we need to know our bodies well enough to know our own boundaries, and then have the confidence to speak up if we feel they're being crossed. As Sophie and I discussed, that could be really hard. I found Sophie's perspective on this topic refreshing, perhaps because, as they say at the start, they came away from writing their book with more questions and answers, which perhaps sounds unsatisfying, but the questions they compel us to ask ourselves about our relationship to our bodies and intimacy, they're important

questions, they're provocative ones. So I hope this conversation helps you to reflect positively on your own relationship to sex and intimacy. Enjoy the show. Sophie, let's get started, talking about your book. It's a really interesting time to publish a book called Will I Ever Have Sex Again and discuss the themes that you discuss in the book because, I mean, as I was doing some background research ahead of this discussion,

I was looking through all the kind of reports and research around this topic. I love getting into my data. And there's three kind of points that really suck out to me. One, a recent peer research paper, found that at least 25% of adults will now not get married or enter a long-term relationship, which is going to lead to a big shift in societally how we're organised.

Second thing that struck me was the Natsal survey, which is the world's biggest sex relationships survey in the world, is noting a decade on decade decline in the amount of sex we are all having. And then number three, the rise in discussions around celibacy, which has over 78 million posts on TikTok. And there was recent research that found one in six women and one in ten men have recently chosen to take a break from sex and dating. So I thought that was kind of interesting kind of backdrop,

kind of contextual backdrop to the discussions that you then lay out in your book as you seek to really explore and unpack our modern day sexual landscape. But why did you personally, particularly write this book? I wish I was one of the people who were like, yeah, I chose to not have sex. for nine years because feminism nah just tell us that

and we'd be like yeah let's rewrite the book it was more or less involuntary celibacy the reasons why I haven't had sex in almost nine years now are many there's 85,000 words written about it so it's complicated

but it's a mix of many different things but I think the reason it happened when it happened was I had a long situation ship end and it kind of just struck me that I'd spend five years waiting for something physical to happen between us and it didn't and then that kind of forced me to examine like what what is my relationship with sex like how did I come to this point and I as soon as I started wanting to date again and I went on on dating sites and on apps and stuff every time intimacy came my way

every time someone was interested, I just felt this like panic, this like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can't, like throw the phone away. And I was like, oh, okay, there's an issue here. Like, there's something has happened in the last nine years that means that I can't even get close to it even when I think I want it.

And that's what I wanted to figure out. And in writing the book, do you feel you have a definitive answer on where that feeling was coming from? I think so. I think I pretty much have an answer. The annoying thing about the book is that I wanted, I really, I like answers, I love, I love facts and like, oh, I love definitive knowledge.

So I wanted to write a book that was full of answers on like, how to do it. Not like, you know what I mean. I mean, I think a little of us could do that too. I overall know. I've seen the videos, okay? But how to get over the hurdle. And I was, I interview in every chapter I interview, like an expert in the topic that I write about. And I was, it was basically the whole book is me going, so what's the answer?

And they all go, well, I'm like, ah. And they all go like, well, what if you asked yourself the question instead? And I was like, no, no, no. Tell me the answer. And they'd be like, well, actually, what you should do is ask yourself more questions. So it's now a book full of questions, and I'm sorry about that. so you went in with a few questions you came out with 10,000 more great it's off the way it goes

but I was interested I think prior to writing the book you sent out a survey to your newsletter I think social media following asking people specifically if they hadn't had sex why that was yeah so it was I had just gotten the book deal and I was really struggling to write the book because at that point I really thought I was alone with this

I thought it was like a bit of a freak instance of someone who hadn't had sex in that loan, but wanted to. And I was reading Rough by Rachel Thompson, who's incredible, and she has all these anonymous stories from people in the book to back up, like to mix around with her science and facts. Love a fact. And I thought, oh, I want some anonymous stories. I wonder if I could get some people to share their stories. Like there must be someone out there who has the same experience as me. So I made this Google form and I sent it out thinking I was going to get

maybe 30, 40 replies and within 48 hours I had to shut down the Google form because it was every minute at that point and I had 1,800 of people's stories in my inbox and I wanted to be able to read all of them so I like shut it down and ended it and even then people found my email address or like emailed my agent and they were like

my agent was like I can't with all these stories and I was like no so just forward them He was like, I don't know what's happening. I was like, shh. He was very traumatized by that. So then I realized, oh, I'm not alone in this. This is like so many people are going through this.

And that helped me to then write the book because I was like, oh, it's not just my own little memoir. It's interesting because I think the topic of sex, even though sex is everywhere, it's in marketing, it's kind of online. I mean, we're constantly confronted with, I think, a, you know, sanitize or quite a reductive notion of sex. So it constantly being bartered by messaging around sex, but it still remains a very taboo topic.

Particularly in the UK, there was a study recently that found that 50% of people in the UK still regard it as a deeply taboo topic that they don't want to touch. And I think the problem with any taboo topics is that the, there is shame associated with that topic because we don't talk about it. And so what happens, I think, and I really resonate with that, is if we personally, an individual level have an issue with our relationship to two said to boot topic, a case X or intimacy or anything kind of in that in that kind of more intimate field. We assume we must be totally alone in feeling that because we don't have recourse to those

public, open, nuanced, vulnerable conversations around it. So we're left to feel like we're individually broken and thus that we need to figure out whatever is wrong with us, that there are no kind of broader answers. and no one else who can relate to what we're going through. So I'm interested to know. I'm unsurprised, I guess, then to hear of how many people were so eager to respond to you. And I think that is really best test me to the fact

that people want to have these conversations and also want to be heard in their experience. What did those responses tell you about our current sexual landscape? What I really loved about it was how many people wrote, like within their story they wrote oh my god I can't believe I'm talking about this like I've never even thought about this before until you asked the question

it was almost like a lot of people the way they talked about it it was as if they'd just woken up because that question had been posed to them and they're like oh yeah why is this and I found that really interesting that sometimes you just need the question to kind of wake people up

every more or less I'm going to make maybe 99% of them had all experienced some kind of sexual assault. Anywhere between, you know, someone showed me their dig in the park. Can I swear on this? I'm assuming I can swear. Sex talks, I mean. Is dick a swear?

That's another conversation. Dick. Like, you know, like a flasher in the park to, you know, real horrible things. And everyone had an experience to share about that. And also, most people mentioned Los Angeles. self-esteem and body image issues and either hating their own body not trusting that their partner liked their body or they weren't having sex because they were with a partner who didn't like their body even though they liked their body like they there was so and it wasn't everyone saying like

that is the main thing that you know a lot of people had a lot of different things not very few people were like I have one thing and this is what's wrong and this is my issue everyone had like an array of different things that have come up, gender-wise, body-image-wise, like sexual assault, romance, gender, everything. But those were the ones that really stuck out. It's so wild how many people are just wanting a really happy, fun sex life, but they're being held back by all of these past ghosts and this stupid thing we've been fed by the media about how we're meant to look.

And so when I mentioned to the beginning, there's that Natsal survey which, and actually kind of just multiple piece of research now, show that we are consistently having less sex. Decad on decade, we're seeing a decline in how much sex we're all having. Did the answers to that survey and, I mean, in your answer there, you paint a picture of a myriad of different factors contributing to people's, people having issues around sex. Do you think there's something specific about this period and time that is precipitating issues that people were vocalizing in this survey that are making them feel less able to have sex? And what does that kind of, what does that look like? Well, there were quite a few people who wrote to me about Roe v. Wade

and how they would just say I don't feel safe anymore. Like, if I have sex and something goes wrong and I'm pregnant, we're talking whatever, death row or what, like, this is like serious stuff. And I think there is something in the culture at the moment where I feel like we've started talking and we've started comparing notes. And suddenly we're talking about something like weaponized incompetence and we're talking about queerness in a way that's more accessible to everyone. And we're talking more about gender. And it's basically a lot of people are having to start. questioning a lot of things about our past experiences. We're talking about consent with the Me Too movement.

A lot of us had a moment of going, oh, hang on. Oh, that counts. Ah, shit. Like maybe things weren't as fun as I thought they were in the moment, and maybe this affected me more than it had. And I think we generally, especially women, people who've been raised as women, and queer people, I guess, as well trans people,

we feel angrier, perhaps. Maybe we're being more allowed. Maybe we feel like there's more people being angry about things. Maybe then we allow ourselves it a bit more. And it's kind of, I feel like some people struggle sleeping with the enemy. Now that we've identified the enemy as the enemy. I definitely see a lot of my straight friends who are like, well, I've, now I've tried going gay. I can't do that, so I'd rather just be alone.

And this, when we read about. this decline in sex it's always pictured and written about in the context of being a very negative thing like this is something as a society we're losing we're losing hold as something that is really important to us and don't get me wrong obviously I think sex is a really important part of our lives but also how we understand sex actually needs to evolve it's not just when we have a very heteronormative I think view of sex in our society it's

penis and vagina and that is it and that we think we need to move on from that. I think definitely a conversation is helping with that. But from what you've just said, it sounds as though there's also perhaps people are feeling more empowered and emboldened to say no to sex they don't want, which is, to all extent, and purposes a very good thing. And you mentioned there the Me Too movement, the effect of that, I mean, I remember, I'm sure lots of people here do in that time, I can obviously see one person nodding. When suddenly you turn to your friends and you had the language with which to articulate previous experiences that hadn't made sense but had felt wrong and suddenly we were given this set of like this vocabulary

with which to articulate that bad feeling and that feels like a good thing and something that we should be kind of celebrating did you come away from those responses actually feeling kind of galvanized in a way oh I felt I think I felt every single possible emotion um I've the main thing was that I felt less alone, and I felt angry at just the fact that everyone had had these struggles, and we haven't talked about it. And a lot of people had never said it out loud and had dealt with it alone, and also didn't have the answers. And I also just felt a bit like, I feel like one of the sort of gentler, nicer issues around it is that so many of us are kind of just tumbling about

not really knowing how. You know, like when you get to the other side of it, like I write in the book about sexuality because I'm bisexual, but I've only ever slept with cis men. And now I feel like I've cut that out of my life for reasons. And now I'm like a baby. Like, I don't know.

And I speak to other bisexuals who are in the same boat and they're like, I don't know. So like we just walk around like having crushes on each other but no one knows, like, how to do anything. I don't know, this is weird, and then we just, nothing happens. A lot of it is also, and I know for a lot of my, one of, in the past nine years, I went on one date with a guy, and it didn't, like, nothing happened, and it was just a bit like, oh, well.

And then I ended up chatting to him a couple of years later, and he said, oh, since the Me Too stuff, I never make the first move. Like, I'm so afraid of coming across as creepy. So I am never making the first move. And I was like, well, I would also never have made the first move. So, like, what, we could have, that could have, we could both have been in love with each other. And we would just been like, bye, because we both thought the other, like, come on. Like, some, a lot of it is just, I think, re-learning was what I liked about, what I found comforting around sex.

I used to love sex. Like, when I was a teenage and I discovered it, I found a job in a sex shop. like it was oh I just it was I loved it so much I wanted to do I wanted to try everything I wanted to work I wanted to be a sex worker at one point like I was so into it as like I love this so much and I think one of the things I liked was that there was a script right there was the penis and Magina script you could watch the porn and it would tell you how to do it in what order and like how which sounds to make how to look all of the things and I really liked that there was that like oh I'm entering into sex now I'm going to a I'm going to a I'm going to to do this now like a B and then at some point he comes and then it's over and I was like dang I've succeeded I've done the sex and and I still miss I miss having the feeling of I know what I'm doing but what I'm learning now about consent about ongoing consent about communication around bodies and like how nothing is like no one can tell you what to do do before you're doing it and then you have to ask the other person what like it's such a different

thing that I'm like oh god oh I wish there was a guidebook which is what I thought I hoped I could write but everyone was like no there's no answers was a good yes we got some more questions for you it's interesting as you say that I remember I interviewed Ruby rare as brilliant sex educator a while ago and she gave me a piece of sex advice I've never forgotten it feels very relevant to what you just said she said particularly reflecting on her own experience as a queer person and how she exactly really echoing what you said when she first had sex with the woman she was like there was no rule book I didn't really know what to do and she was like but actually in that unknowing there was this kind of playfulness and experimentation and exploration and it meant they both had to communicate and I think she said at the time we all should approach every new person we sleep with as though we are having sex for the first time and as a they and so So we are approaching these sexual encounters with curiosity and exploration and communication first and foremost as opposed to abiding by this prescribed rule book that I think so many

of us definitely feel familiar with, which hasn't worked because we have a massive orgasm gap. It's never been fun, has it? It's never been fun, exactly, but we like rules because rules make us feel safe, but rules don't always work and aren't necessarily there for the best reason. Well, that takes me to the main issue, right, which is if you have to be. in this explorative, exciting moment. If you have to connect and communicate and listen, you have to be present and in the moment

and you have to exist in your body. And you have to be able to answer, what do I like, what do I want? You have to be able to live. And what I realized is that I don't know if I have had sex where I was fully present in the moment in my body. And that's, I, my interpretation is,

at some point in the last nine years I overstepped my own boundaries just one time too many and my body went nope we're done now because we can't trust you with the we can't trust you to listen to your body when we're saying no and that is essential for your own safety

and I think that's why now if someone is like hi I like you I'm like go away because my whole body goes no danger because it does feel like it's dangerous to not listen to your boundaries and to not choose to be with people who will listen to your boundaries and that's sort of the path where I'm at now

I'm like, well, I could go out and have sex like I've had the occasional offer but can I go out and have sex and be fully present in the moment? Oh, that's scary because I've never done that before. And the theme of safety is one that is present, kind of into open throughout your book.

And it really struck me because I think you're completely right in order to be able to have enjoyable sex and to really be able to fully consent, you do have to feel safe and at ease and present in your body. And yet, if we're following the rule book that you've also alluded to, we're not listening to our body. We're just abiding by this, as you say, this script that has been pre-prescribed, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what we want and hey we might don't even know what we want because we haven't been taught how to explore our body and explore sex in a way and explore what gives us

pleasure and also what doesn't what does safety then in sex mean and look like to you i mean you've mentioned there being able to feel connected to your body but how would you imagine being in a situation now that would make you feel entirely safe given all the learnings you've had and writing this book and all the questions. So I made up my own academic theory. Love a made-up academic theory. I had to put academic in quotes because I told a few academics and they were like, it doesn't make sense. But throughout interviewing all these experts, I reached my own definition. Oh, also, and there was one academic who said, oh, who was a theorist in your book that came up with a thing? And I was like, me? Never even went to uni. And I came up with that. It's called the

four stages of no thank you very much me i made it and uh did you i actually thought of it myself so because i figured out like this is what i would need to be able to do in order to have sex that i would consider it safe like emotionally safe so it starts with my body it starts with inside i need to be able to feel when my body says no i need to be able to acknowledge it and feel oh my body doesn't want to do this right now. And by body, I also mean brain, heart, nervous system, feelings. Like, it's a no. Then I have to be able to trust that I can express that. I have to be able to trust that I can say, oh, actually, no, or wait, or I'm not comfortable or hey, whatever. In a however way I want to say no, how you're able to trust that I can express that. And by trust, you mean

trust that the other person has create the space. No, trust that I can say it. Okay. Because that's up to me. I have to be the one to say no if I mean no. Then I have to trust. that's the third stage is I have to trust that the person I'm with or people they're not on board with that I heard some very very enthusiastic murmurings they were like yeah let's let's calm down that's sex talks that the person I'm with I have to be able to trust that they can interpret my nose because sometimes nose don't sound like no it's you like backing off a bit or You're like, don't seem comfortable, you don't seem happy, you're shutting down, whatever it is. I have to trust that they will pick up on that and go, oh, I'm going to stop now because I read and know.

And then I have to trust that if they do pick up on my no, that they will respect it. The four stages of no. And so far, I don't trust the people I get with because my taste in people has not been good. I have not really found people who I trust would, you know, accept that. Or even people who, it's not even that they wouldn't necessarily accept my no, but they don't pick up on it. They're like, where are they? And also, I am bad, I'm still bad at setting boundaries.

And I, and that can come out in, if I can't tell a friend, oh, I actually don't want to go see that movie. How am I going to be naked in front of someone and say, oh, I don't want to do this, right? Like, I still can't, I'm not good at setting boundaries and... I'm horrible at setting boundaries, horrible. So bad. I say mean things in my head because I'm annoyed at the situation,

but I can't then say just no. I'm like, fuck, say what? In my head. And I'm like, yeah, sure. And I get so upset about it internally, but there's just something that's like, I don't want to be difficult. And I think what we're doing when we're doing that

is we're sending a signal information to our bodies, that is, you can't trust me. Like, I'm going to put you in situations you don't want to be in, and I'm going to ask you to shut up because we don't want to make other people uncomfortable. And there's a point where your body will go, okay, so, and now you're going to go and have sex? Like, how do you trust in that intimate situation?

How do you trust that, you know, then you just have to assume that the other person keeps asking, which in an ideal world, they would. Sometimes they don't. And also, at some point, I can't even feel. Like, there are some situations. If I'm with someone I fancy, I have no connection. Like, they'll be like, what do you want for dinner?

I'm like, whatever you want. Like, codependency just like, it just pops up. And then I don't know what I want or what I don't want. So until I can be with someone I fancy or I'm attracted to and I can feel, oh, oh, I actually don't want to do this. And now I can actually tell you. And that can start with just meeting them and going, oh, do you want to go have a drink? I need to be able to that situation to go, no, I want to have a piece.

pizza or whatever. That's more likely. Otherwise, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to get myself in the situation. And that's actually something my sex therapist talked to me a lot about this, building that trusting relationship with yourself first and foremost. And often when we think about dating advice and sex advice, it's often in the context of how to approach someone else, how to interact with someone else, the right thing to say, the right thing that the green flags, the red flags. And actually, before all of that is useful or relevant, it's actually what relationship like with yourself are you able to take care of yourself are you able to as you say on your boundaries do you know what feels good do you know what feels bad do you know what you like

because i think often it's very easy when we don't we don't have that trustful knowing relationship with ourselves we're also delegating a lot of responsibility to someone else to show us or tell us what we like what we want what doesn't feel good what does feel good and that's far too much responsibility to be putting in some random as strangers hands if you're having a one-night stand I noticed, Sophie, when we spoke, just on this kind of topic of safety, when we spoke before this interview, you mentioned to me that one of the reasons you felt you hadn't yet been able to explore sex with women is that you felt that if you are having sex with a woman, you would feel compelled to be present. A woman you felt would make you feel present in your body in a way that felt scarily confronting, whereas men, you said, have encouraged. you to kind of escape, to kind of go into your head or whatever happens when you kind of disconnects, actually. Can you tell us a little bit about what you meant by that?

Yeah, it's a bit generalizing. I'm sure there are women who don't give a fuck if you're awake. But I remember, I was thinking about this recently. I don't know if it was the same here in this country, but when I was a teenager, whenever we talked about sex, the main thing we talked about was how to not be awkward. And it was always like, how can we do sex without ever talking because talking is bad. Talking isn't sexy. So it was like we would have this conversation around like we should always have a condom on us

so we don't have to ask, do you have a condom? Because then we're ruining it. We're ruining it if we had to ask. And like learning how to give the perfect blowjob because you don't want to, you never want to say is this okay because that's not sexy. Like it was all surrounding sex should be completely quiet apart from like some porn moans every once in a while.

And it's the, and I think, So the men I ended up sleeping with were raised in the same culture. You know, talking wasn't a thing. And I think often we just went into the, and also we would get drunk. A lot of it was like drunken. So like we were already a bit gone. You know, like it was just all these like one night stands where a lot of them I was like, oh, I was pretending to be another person and they didn't notice or didn't care, all preferred it.

And it was just, but when I imagined being with a woman, which I do I can't imagine being like oh I'm just going to put like I can like it doesn't ring true they'd be like excuse me where'd you go like hello I don't know why she would always be snapping her fingers

but I feel like she would be like that's my type in a woman hey hey hey has that this exploring this idea of safety and what makes you feel safe and in turn what makes you feel unsafe has that changed your perception of consent and made you think perhaps more critically about current cultural conversations around consent?

I feel like we've all learned a lot in the past, whatever is that, it's now five years or so since the Me Too stuff. I think the one thing I learned that I really appreciated in my research was the stoplight. thing, which is, in my head, I've always thought of consent as being very yes or no. Like, those were the only options.

And then I'd read Justin Hancock and Meg John Barker's book where they talked about the traffic light, where you could say, oh, not now, or wait, or I'm not sure. And I was like, mind blown. It hadn't even occurred to me that I could say, can we wait five minutes? in my head it was like I either do it or I go no never again goodbye forever like there's two options and it just I think the wild thing is I'm 35 and I just learned that what is happening how can I not have known that and I think we're just learning so much about consent being this not fluid but an ongoing thing and also a fun thing again is a thing of being a teenager I remember how much

we were talking about like well you don't want to you don't want to ruin the mood by asking still in Denmark there's still a lot of misogynist chat in the press around like oh so now you have to have a contract so you're going to bring a contract to each like they it's just they can't imagine a world where you would go hey are you into this or you're still into this oh how do you like this do you like this? Do you want me to do something like? And actually being kind of hot. It's so hard. Yeah. Because it's that calling to attention being like do you like this is feel good and you're like hell fucking yeah. finger me more, like fab.

And I'm assuming, like, I don't think any of the people that I've slept with would ever be like, oh, I don't want the chick to be present in the moment and I don't give her shit if she wanted to or not. Like, they were all like quite nice people, not all of them, a lot of them are quite nice people. And they would probably be livid if they read the book,

but they're not that nice, so they probably haven't. But I think they'd be really sad. If you're listening to buy a book, contribute to book sales, because that always is good. I said I know you did go and see a sex worker who you didn't know was a sex worker, I think, initially, and did have quite an interesting experience, not having sex with said worker, but actually exploring your boundaries and it ended up being quite an interesting experience. Can you tell us about that experience? Because I found it fascinating and kind of wanted to follow suit. I really thought he was a sex therapist because that's what I googled and then his website.

I came up. And then I didn't really bother reading what he did. I was just like he was probably about talking. It wasn't. What was the giveaway when you arrived? The late sex. Later. The sex dungeon.

The sex dungeon that he took me into and I was like, even then I was so naive. I was like, oh, he probably, it's probably really expensive to rent an office in London. Like he's probably just got a really good deal. Oh, there's really good deals on sex dungeons, classically. I've actually thought of it myself instead of a co-working space, but now sex dungeon. I mean, it was very comfortable latex chairs and everything. It was very nice. Yeah, it took a while and then he was, he kept asking if I wanted a message and I kept being like,

aw, like that's nice. Like, my therapist has never offered me a message. Like that's so, I was like, no, no, don't worry about it. I started talking about my trauma for like so long. And he kept being like, do you like a message? And I was like, he won't let go of that massage thing. And then eventually I was like, hmm. And like I just thought back and I was like, oh, oh yeah.

Like the email he sent me did say I had to shower before the appointment. And also it said there will be no penetration. And again, I was just like, oh, maybe this poor guy has like had some really boundary crossing clients. And he's now had to put it in the email, this poor, poor man. I'd imagine all your meeting emails are like, can't wait to see you 2 p.m. coffee, so-and-so, no penetration will take place just in case you're confused. If every other time you have coffee someone expects penetration,

you'd end up saying it, wouldn't you? You might, in fact, I might put a little asker in my emails just to be on the safe side. But you did end up having quite a fruitful experience. How come? So I ended up asking him, if, if, what I said, what's the difference between your job and being a sex worker? And he said, nothing, I'm a sex worker. I was like, okay.

Oh, okay. Let me have a thing. And I wasn't in a place where that's what I wanted. I have no judgment on people who do. I have friends who've had amazing experiences with sex workers. I was just absolutely panicked at the very idea of doing that, as I would with any sex at the time. Um, but I, so I ended up, and this is kind of like a baby version of learning about boundaries. Um, at one point, because he was sitting quite close, which in retrospect, of course he was.

But in the moment, I was like, this is a bit much. Unprofessional therapist. Um, so I asked him, it would seem. Yeah, I asked him, I was like, could you sit on the other side of the late sex massage table? And he was like, sure. And he did. And there was something that. felt quite freeing both about having asked the question because it didn't it I felt like this is not normally something I would dare to do like I've I had a therapist for three years where I never and all I thought about in the therapy sessions was I need to know what the time is but I was too scared of asking her to turn the watch around so I was like it's a big thing for me to ask so like I

asked him to move and I was like it was quite exhilarating so then and then he was like oh do you want the door open or closed and it was closed I said open and he like went over and opened it and I was like okay here we go actually I'd like it closed and he went over and closed it and then I got like what feral with power so like I waited till he sat down and I was actually I'd like it open and like I was I was it was exhilarating I was like I'm like stating what I wants and he's doing it oh it felt amazing um And I, because also, it was a three-hour session I'd said yes to, and I didn't know how to just leave. I didn't know how to go.

I made a mistake. I'm sorry, goodbye. So I was like, well, I got to make the time go somehow. And now open the door and now close the door. I also asked him a lot of questions about being a sex worker. I was just like interviewing him because I was like, I'm still an hour and a half. I guess if you could take me back to when you were five, I think that would be a good place to start. But that's just interesting in terms of how those small requests can view, and I think

lots of people resonate with that, can feel such a big ask because you're not used to saying what you want and saying what you want. And then having someone be like, yeah, sure, like no problem. Yeah, that's wild. Completely fine. And then also, when this session was finally over, three very, very hard hours of just me talking at his face. The door opening, closing, opening.

closing um we said goodbye he like shook my hand he was leading me back upstairs and the second he was like the second it was over i was like oh oh how fucked up is that as soon as he's not available he was suddenly a bit exciting i was like right i need to book enough therapy session to unpack this i was like this is the issue isn't i so talking about chasing unavailable people yeah because it is a theme. Yeah. It is a theme that comes up in your book and one I found painfully resonant, it must be said, but situationships played a big part of your relationship to sex, to safety, to your

sense of self. And there's something that you explore, I think really poignantly and sometimes painfully in the book. But as I said, in a way that felt very resonant, there's just one quote I thought I'd read out that I think kind of sums up. up, a bit of what I'm saying there. You write, that is when it hit me that I spent the past five years focusing on a man who made a lot of promises and told a whole lot of lives, lives, told a whole lot of lies, and never once even kissed me. And I told myself,

it was enough. Going back over the book, in that process of editing, and maybe even the posts of writing that how did it feel reading over those experiences of these situationships that you had deemed enough but that were where you were so horribly mistreated what was that experience like do you know that parable about the boiled frog that if you put a if you put a frog I expect you to say that yes I do know the parable of a boiled frog if you put a frog into cold water if you put a frog into boiling water it jumps out smart frog if you put a frog into cold water and then very slowly heats it up it'll stay and be boiled now that has been debunked but let's use it just for fun um it felt like that it felt like realizing that

something had happened so slowly and so invisibly for so many years and then when you write it out you can see it which is humbling and you're kind of like i was very nervous i was like oh people are going to read this and they're going to think i'm an idiot they're going to be like oh it was so obvious And I, maybe to some people it would have been. I would like to think of it the same thing happened now. I'd be able to spot it a mile away because now I've gone through it. But it was really like seeing it chip away. Like it was a five-year-long thing.

And I remember from the very beginning, I had such a trust that if I set a boundary, he would listen. So I didn't because I knew he would listen. And then about six months in, he crossed. a major boundary that's such a nice way of saying it turns out he had a girlfriend listen that was a boundary for me i don't know what you want to say for me that's not okay seems like a solid boundary well rather he had a girlfriend they were monogamous he told me they were polyamorous um so and then i was like well now it's time to set the boundary and say stop it's over now and then the second i started setting the boundary even like before i'd said it he broke into tears and oh he was actually

suicidal and oh my god everything's so bad and I was immediately like oh well then of course I'm not gonna like shout at him now for doing that like he's a sad man like I should take care of him and then I'll just set the boundary later five years later I was still in it because every time I tried to set a boundary oh he was actually struggling quite a lot and oh and when you look back at it like even from the very first he was an older, like a famous comedian and I was newer at the time. And like the very first communication we had was him saying like in the middle of the night DMing me being like, oh my God, I know we don't know each other, but like I'm in like a real horrible situation.

I can't explain what it is, but I think I'm having a panic attack where you talk me through it. And I was like, yes, I shall come to your rescue. and I felt so seen and important and, like, needed. And then when I told my therapist a couple of years later, she was like, how old is he? So he was a 40-year-old man who needed a 27-year-old new comedian. Does he not have a family, a wife, a brother, a mother? Like, does he not, do you not think he has the resources?

And that was the first time it occurred to me. Oh, he didn't need me. I couldn't provide him with something no one else could. That was his way of getting under my skin and like getting to me. So I think writing about that was a lot of that work of just realizing that this all started before I even knew.

Before I could even pinpoint it, he had already started getting to me. So by the time it occurred to me that this was a bad situation, it was too late because the frog was boiling. And I think you said there before that you imagine people might have read that and felt quite frustrated and like, oh, for God's sake.

And it's funny because I think, we're not funny but it's notable at times I definitely did feel that reading it and then I thought back to situations I've had where friends have said to me Emma it's so obvious what's going on here he has a wife or which I didn't actively know at the time or and many lies or like as my dad said with someone I saw

quite recently he's really not into you he doesn't like you and i was like dad he he he does and he was like then where the hell is he he's never here he's never with you and i was like you don't get it it's special and i think so to your point i think there's it's so easy to trick ourselves in the moment when we really like someone and we haven't worked out our boundaries and perhaps there's also that bit of like insecurity lack of confidence and self that plays a part of that because we think, God, well, maybe I'm not quite good enough yet, but I will be. And if I can prove to him that I am worth it, that I'm worth sticking around for, then I've proven to myself that I'm worth sticking around

for. And that is a really powerful, toxic feeling to have, and one I think so many people can relate with. Who here has had a crappy situation ship? Oh. I would know if I was like, no, actually it was actually mine was special he did end up being married living with his wife but it was special you wouldn't understand um if anyone listening late on the podcast i'd say most people 90% of people in the room raised their hand now so if you said there that you hope now having done this research having done a lot of the work that you've done i guess in writing this book that you wouldn't go into a situation like that now i mean would i really hope not do you know what I mean but I also said that before that relationship like I was so done and I was like I felt like I'd seen I knew I could see all the red flags and then for somehow because he came across as such a good guy like oh my God like not well it's not him like he's not one of them and like because the men I've had these situationships with have like like when I was like in my early 20s he was very clearly and obviously an asshole and like

I almost knew when I went, I get almost new. And then the next one was super sweet. And then was also an asshole, ah. And then I was like, no, I'm done with it. And then this one was like, but he was like so much nicer. So I'm like, I think I would like to think that I'm done. I would love to think I'm done. And I think one of the ways I'm going to try and be done is by at least eliminating half the gender.

Like maybe just like staying away from cis men at least for a bit. Which hopefully will, I don't know. I guess, the dream is that there are no toxic women and everything's fine. Oh, there are toxic women. I guess what I'm really asking with that is has your relationship to yourself changed over this period of celopacy and self-reflection and book writing? I'd like to think so. I feel like I shouldn't say this. I'm going to say it.

Basically, I've done the media training. I just don't follow the rules. like I know what to say I just don't say it so I know I shouldn't say this my favorite comment I get from people who've read the book are people who say I wish I hadn't read the book which a few people have said

quite a few people have said shouldn't tell you that but it's always people going once you ask yourself these questions there's no going back you can't unthink these things and there are people who've been like shit

I now question things about my gender, sexuality, relationship with sex, my relationship. And that is my favorite thing, because I don't think it's meant to necessarily. I'm a firm believer that knowledge and knowing and awareness is the best gift you can get, even when that is difficult, even when that feels really hard. So I think I do know myself so much. better, but what I know is really crap. Like what I know is that I really struggle to be

intimate with people because my body still stops because I don't know how to set boundaries where I had a much more fun life before I wrote the book because in my head I was like, I'm going to write the book and then I'm going to, at the end of the book I'll do an orgy. I'm going to go and fuck a bunch of people. It's going to be

super fun. And that was a more fun world to live in, one where all the sex I've ever had was fun and exciting and I was like free and sexy and oh my god I fucked this man in a hotel room and it was amazing I fucked a man in a bush oh my god but when you then learn about yourself you realize I don't think I wanted to when that happened I'm curious that's a shittier thing but at least it's true and I think you get further with that just as you were saying that I was reminded of

a study you know one of those studies that popped into your head fellow faux academic over here Sophie. But it was a study taking out in 2007, which set out to find the reasons for which people have sex. And it found that there are 237 reasons why people have sex. And they're quite funny, actually. They can range from, I was bored. I wanted to feel closer to God. I wanted to get a promotion. And then of course, we've all been there with God. And then of course, we've all been there with God. and then of course you know the more kind of usual ones that we'd expect like you know would desire for physical intimacy

wanting to get closer to someone etc but as you were saying all that I just wondered whether what your motivation for having sex personally was before you wrote this book and whether what might will one day motivate you to have sex again whether that will be different

it's a very good question I think oftentimes what and this is like the the harsh like real raw truth I thought I had to because I wasn't sure it would happen again like I was

I remember situations where I thought I don't want to do this but I don't think he would ever ask me again so I should grab onto this opportunity right now and it was like very much almost it was a conscious thought of like shit I should do this the cool thing

is to do this the right thing like it's exciting right it should be exciting Sex in the city, they have sex, you should have sex. Like, it was just this fear that it would go away. And also because it was a rarity. Like, I'm not someone who's hit on constantly. So I didn't feel like I could just, if I say no to him, like he'll move away and there'll be another one. Like, it didn't happen that often.

And I was just scared of losing it. Like, what if it never happens again? And I think I'm never going to go into sex with that attitude ever again. Also, now I've survived nine years. I could survive another nine years. I don't give a shit. Like, I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine.

I really like my sofa. I really like my dog. I'm fine. Didn't you get, they've been like two books in this process? Like, it's a pretty productive period. I'd be like,

winning. I've done so well, yeah. It's fine. Like, I don't need, I don't need that. I want my motivation, I, because I still do,

I want a sex life. If it's fun, and consensual and great. It doesn't have to be great. It can be bad and awkward and funny and weird. But as long as we're into it, I think it could be incredibly fun. Like I used to have this passion around it.

You know, I used to love working in the sex shop. And I work with all these people who were working in sex in different ways and all these like bondage people. And it was just, it was just, I love sex. I really, really do. But I'm not gonna do it if it's not, if I'm not gonna be fully there. it's not going to be fun.

So my motivation will be if I meet someone where I feel safe and where I feel turned on and where I feel like it's not an opportunity that might escape at some point, but that it's just, I don't want to feel like I can tell this person what all my boundaries are

and at no point are they going to go, oh, I don't know, like, I want to have a feeling that this is like safe. and that is when I want sex and if that doesn't happen I'm not having sex and again it's that word safe that comes up to say throughout the book I'm really glad you said that because actually

Dr Karen Gurney who's been interviewed on the sex talk stage many times she said in response to the constant reports around these drop in sex that we're all having I think she said that sex talks a little while ago that actually too often we focus on quantity

so the amount of sex we're having rather than quality So are we, and just the real question we should be asking ourselves if we're looking at the health of our sex life is am I enjoying the sex that I'm having, not am I having enough sex? Because there is no such thing as enough. And I think what you've just said there really speaks to that, that it's not worth forcing yourselves ever into sexual situations if you don't really want it and you don't feel comfortable and you don't feel safe. Because actually that then has a knock on effect on the sexual. interactions you have after that. I just want to ask you, so one more thing, before we take a quick break to turn to the fabulous audience questions, there was one thing that I loved, and I thought quite a fun thing to end on, which you addressed at the very end of the book, which is flirting when you are neurodiverse.

And it's the final chapter, and you interview a flirting expert. A flirtologist. A flirtologist. called Gene Smith is that right first of all we need a flirtologist to hear at sex talk at some point she's incredible and I

Robics I know you said in an interview did that you were quite apprehensive at first and quite skeptical of the idea of a flirtologist but she ended up offering you actually pretty fantastic advice tell us Sophie how do we flirt

she's great I was so like poor flirtologist fuck off like I was I was so ready to hate her. She's a great start for an interview for your book. She's so good. I really didn't think she could get to me. She did. She should so have her on. She's amazing. She gave me tasks. She gave me homework as well. She was like, you have to go into the world without wearing headphones. And I was like, I don't want to. She was like, well, then people won't speak to you. I was like,

exactly. That's the point. But she said, because I got very hung up on rejection. I was like, I don't want to flirt. I don't like flirting because I don't like being rejected. And I think that's a common experience around flirting like we get so scared of what they'll say and she said treat flirting it's a gift you're giving someone if you see someone and you think this person looks nice looks handsome is sexy is whatever it's just someone you want you want them to feel good about themselves you're not doing it to feel good about you this is all for them so you say to someone hi you look amazing. I'd love to have a drink with you. And if they say no, nothing, you haven't lost anything because you just wanted them to feel good. You wanted, you wanted to give them the gift

of your interest and like, hey, I want you to have a good day today. Or like, you can't lose anything when you haven't put yourself at risk. Like, you're not giving them like, oh, here's my self-esteem. What are you going to do? Please treasure it. Yeah, exactly. My first therapist, fun sentence. My first therapist said it about love. She said, oh, there's nothing wrong with like falling in love with people as long as they treat your heart well. Yeah, it was looking at flirting

in the way of, it's a gift you give someone because you want them to feel good. It has nothing to do with you. That's such a great piece of advice because so often, I am so great at running up people and being like, oh my gosh, you look incredible or I love your top or I love what you said or just something. I really love that. As soon as

someone I fancy comes into my vicinity, I'm like, oh yeah oh god there's a fly yeah wow and i just can't i like can't look at them and it's not like i don't if then they speak to me i'm like fine i'm confident and happy but there is like this reticence that immediately forms and i'm like well they know that i love them so if i go and speak to them they're going to think i'm a psycho because they know i'm in love with them having just seen them so the best thing i can do is actually walk away and go and stand 20 feet away and not look and then they'll know

that I am approachable to flower, which is totally insane and actually quite psychotic in itself. So I think this idea of reframing flirting rather than being something that you stand to lose a potential date love

interest in, actually being a way of just being like, hey, you're fucking cool. Yeah, and also, it doesn't have to be, oh this needs to lead to marriage. It could be, but it could. It could just be like, hey, you look great, like have a little wink, have a little, and then you move on.

Like, it doesn't have to be more than with, you know, like, when we experience that, I don't know about you, but I like ride on that way for days if someone's been like, oh my God, three days ago, someone like smiled at me in St. And now I'm at the top of the world, right? Like, it can just be like a nice, a nice connection between people, especially in the world where we're used to just sitting with our headphones on, which I'm a big fan of, by the way. but I'm a challenge everyone sitting in this room today

if you're single and you're like looking to go on a date go up to someone who you think is attractive and offer them that gift of a compliment without any expectation of return and then DM Sophie and I afterwards and tell us how you felt and if you suddenly end up going on as like shit hard date then you know great but if not hey we know someone else's day got made

um Sophie I have about 20 more questions that I want to ask you but I do want to make time for the audience Q&A. So we're going to take a pause there whilst everyone has a quick break, get a bit of fresh air, and then I'm going to hand round pens and papers for you to write your questions down. So I think we've decided that neither of us are very rapid-fire people. But we're going to try and do rapid-fire

because we've got some fabulous questions we need to get through. Okay, let's get started. How do we make talking about sex with our friends less taboo? what kind of sex ice breakers are there? Sophie, sex ice breakers. Oh, I was hoping you were going to start with this one because I don't think, I just talk to my friends about it.

It feels like a British question. Okay. So. Go back in time, move to Denmark. Learn how to talk about it in school. Well, I have to say, I never spoke to my friends about sex before doing sex therapy. And if I did, it was just seemingly everyone telling me

about how amazing the sex they were having was and me feeling like, oh my God, I literally am so broken. Like, I'm so alone and not enjoying sex. But since doing sex therapy and therefore, I guess talking about to friends about things that we talk about sex talk, so making it more of a kind of like topical issue.

So the research, the studies, you know, what Sophie said on the podcast the other day actually ends up being I've found, I guess, only now I'm verbalising it, do I realize it to be true? but a really good icebreaker because then we're speaking from a perspective of interesting conversation

or some other piece of research which then opens a oh actually interesting that they said that because I've actually felt that too we're going to wrap up in a sec we've got so many good questions I will finish these questions they will get something I always say that

but I mean it this time because now I'm doing solo pods but we need to mind Sophie for every little bit of info in their head I dated and was engaged to a gambling addict. It's ended now. Congratulations for leaving that relationship.

I am now in a healthy relationship, but I'm so afraid I might be the frog in boiling water. I'm afraid to open up again. What advice do you have for me? I think we're kind of back to the person who had the trauma, but was with a loving partner, right? It's about taking it slow and also about just being very aware, I would say. And I think also a part of what I think I wanted to say earlier

was there is always going to be some risk when you get involved with another person. Like you can never 1,000% trust, that's not, can you tell my dad left? You can never trust anyone. But like you're always, when you're in love, there's always a risk that they fall out of love, right? Like it's not necessarily the risk that they'll like lie and deceive, but, you know, romantic connections break sometimes and that can be painful. So sometimes pain will happen and what you can do is make sure you're in a place where you can then take care of yourself and give yourself comfort and know that if the bad

thing does happen, like oftentimes it's not a lot you can do. Like in my five year horrific situation ship thing, so many people told me like he sounds like an asshole, like, but you don't like if you're not ready to admit that to yourself, if you're not ready, you just will not take it in. and then the painful thing will happen, but then you have to learn that you get over it and you get through it because you know how to show yourself love and care.

And I think sometimes we just have to kind of accept that some things, sometimes things will be bad. And also, I think I talked about this in sex with Charmline Reed. It really comes back to the reservoir of self-worth and self-love that you have for yourself, and that requires that you're constantly building that because you're only going to put up the boundary,

walk away from the person who hurts you, you know, respect your needs and wants if you believe you're worth it. And it's really easy to say that it's so goddamn hard to actually do that. Hence my dad, he's not that into you. I'm like, well, maybe it could be. But it really comes back to like how much do you value yourself

and respect yourself and value your time? And I think that takes, I think it's like a lifetime of work, but work that we all have to do. And someone has just asked, I will go deeper into this question actually on the podcast. I feel like we're running out of time. There's two more things I want to put to Sophie. But someone has said, referred to himself being kind of a hopeless romantic

and asked how they don't end up constantly, you know, in search of their next relationship and kind of wanting always to find someone new. And I think actually that that space and time in which you're not in a relationship, I think it's such, like, crucial time to do this, like, self-work that we're discussing and to work out what it feels like and looks like to romance yourself and to take care of yourself and to put yourself first. Because I think we often pit, we often, especially as we get older and we're going to our 30s, there's a lot of pressure to partner up, at least, I mean, not least because to split the lease

and I get that entirely. But to, you know, there's this expectation, like, you know, when are you going to find somebody, when are you going to settle down? And I think it creates this idea that being single means being in a waiting room, that you're kind of in this perennial state of limbo. So you're always in the precipice of finding the thing, the person that is going to change your life. So you don't really commit that fully to your life as it is currently.

So you kind of feel like you're in this kind of transient spates of nothingness until this person comes along. And that is what we've been told by fairy tale romances. But how insane that we don't like sit deeply and currently, into the life that we live because we think we're in the precipice of what the like complete unknown of this potential person and i think you know i've often i spoke about this podcast recently i've often lived in this kind of loving the you know the potential infinite possibility of the unknown and chase that doggedly and actually realize like you have to work out what the like what feels

good now and how you could create that for yourself without someone so that if and when someone comes along, you've got this fantastic life that they're an additive to, but it means if someone comes along and they take away in any way, shape or form from this really, you know, bountiful life you create for yourself, you know like, no, you will

push them away, you will put up your boundaries because you have something so good on your own that you don't need that person to fill in this perceived void. So box moments, Sophie, God. She'll go into it more debt, adept on the podcast. that was the surface level that was just

there's an hour left of that to come okay I'm going to put two really quick questions to you these are really big questions so yeah sorry Sophie do you think the Me Too movement has ruined the male first move I mean ruined is a big word isn't it maybe it has helped free some of us from it but no I think if anyone

I don't know I don't I don't think the me-to move and has ruined anything. I don't think it's done enough. Yeah, it's ruined enough. Quite frankly, I think it needs to do a whole lot more. I also think it's interesting because there's this idea that it kind of like, oh, it's so hard, like, no one can approach each other and, like, men can't talk to women. And I just think, I, where I think we're in a pendulum shift kind of moment, for those who

are listening in care, because I think there are also a spate of people who literally don't give a shit. But I think that, like, this idea, I think there is a pendulum. there is a bit of a questioning, perhaps an over-analysis, like you mentioned, that person said to you before. That's good. Like, we could do with a bit more over-analysis and a bit, like, better to question your motivations,

how you go up to someone, how you make someone feel, because I think those are questions we should be asking yourself, all of ourselves. Like, am I making someone feel uncomfortable, by the way I'm talking to them? Am I being a bit too over-familiar? Like, it's good because you're, it means that's, like, actually a really nice thing. You're being like, oh, I want to respect that person's boundaries.

So I think actually it's, I think, forcing more people to ask sort of questions we should all be asking in the context of intimacy and dating anyway. And also, I find it so strange that people are like, oh, but what if they don't want to want to talk to me? Oh, I guess I'll just go home then. What about asking? Hi, can I talk to you?

Hi, do you, like, we're on a date, whatever. Is it okay if I kiss you? Do you want to see me again? Am I being, is this too much? Instead, people go like, oh, but I could never. know. There's no possible way for me to find out if this person wants me to talk to them. How would I ever know? Oh, well, I guess I'll go home and like write bitch on Twitter. Like, we write, like, hi. We communicate. We can actually talk. A lot of these people, it's because they don't

know how to talk with women, like two women. It's all they talk at women. And now they're like, oh, I'm not allowed to do that anymore. Then what do I do? It's like, communicate. Like, the way you would do with a fucking man. But I also think it goes like always, I think communication, again, it sounds obvious and it's so hard. Like so many times I've been in, well, I have to admit, situationships,

where I have been analyzing everything that, every text that they send me, everything they say, every date that we go on, to all my friends, I have like a kind of focus group around this person who I'm, not right now,

but previously, I've had like kind of focus groups around the people I've been seeing everyone on their dog the barista in the coffee shop knows what's happening and they weigh in they haven't dated someone in 10 years but it doesn't matter their advice is golden I want everyone's opinion but the one person I very seldom ask the open questions to do

is that person who I'm in the situation ship with and that's an insecurity thing it's like oh what if I ask them like what about what might they say would it be great to know because I'm trying to figure it out from that person's dog who really doesn't know because they can't speak to me but I'm like, does he like me?

Does he want to go on the day? But once for yes, twice for no. Like, it's just important. So I think actually that's such an important, obvious and hard takeaway. It's just like ask people, ask questions. And I think I'd like to just draw back what you said about the flirting tip.

Like don't see it as you have something to lose if you ask. But actually, you just both have something to gain. You have clarity, boundaries respected. it and that's good that's enough yeah yeah and i mean i know there are a lot of people who struggle with social cues and stuff which is where asking is perfect right because then you get like you might not be able to read a face but you can hear words right did they twitch that eyebrow enough you think they'd like me or do i need to see a nose wiggle in order to really know that he is into

it um final question would you ever have a meaningless one-night stand right now. I think I would like to get to a point where I can, because I think it can be really fun. And I've had one night stands where there were definitely aspects of it that wasn't fun. But I also found it exciting. One of the things I had to come to terms with in the book when writing the book was that there were, and a sex, is that what you call it? One sex could both be a good and a bad thing. And some of them, whilst I might not have been fully present in my body. There was also a lot of excitement because I really liked the person. I was really turned on by them. It was really nice. And a lot of those times, that would never have worked

outside of the bedroom. And it was just a fun, weird little experience we had together that would have been incredible if I'd been present in my body during it. So yeah, I definitely would, just not right now. I think next time it has to be with someone I really fully trust and have known for a while. But the dream is to just do that like i don't necessarily want a relationship i'd love to just have that happen multiple safe compassionate intimate fun experiences sexual experiences but is that meaningless a good fuck body yeah body body feel that's that's too intense isn't it now yeah commitment phobia on the body for acquaintances. It's too much, mate. Could you step back?

Fuck acquaintances. We're going to have to wrap up there. Thank you so much for asking so many wonderful questions. And Sophie, thank you for being such a fond of knowledge and just so god down, everyone. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for listening to today's Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. If you'd like to attend a live recording of the podcast, check out the event bright link in the show notes,

we have lots of exciting live events coming up. You can also keep up to date with everything coming up at Sex Talks, plus get my sporadic musings via the Sex Talk substack. I've also popped that link into the show notes. And over on Instagram, where I'm at Emma Louise Boynton. And finally, if you enjoyed the show, please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to this on, as apparently it helps others to find us. Have a glorious day. Thank you.