Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - “Don’t settle for half-love” with Caggie Dunlop

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

In this episode, Emma sits down with Caggie Dunlop, host of the Saturn Returns podcast and author of Saturn Returns: Your Cosmic Coming Of Age, to chat bad dates, good dates, and shaking off all the societal pressures surrounding finding the ‘perfect’ person, the ‘perfect’ job, the ‘perfect’ life…  Together they tackle your agony aunt questions regarding: How to avoid losing yourself in loveHow you know when it’s time to leave a relationship versus staying to try and make things workHow to find your purpose in work and avoid feeling ‘left behind’ If you want to send your own agony aunt question to the podcast, head on over the sextalks.co.uk. This episode was sponsored by dating app, Feeld. If you want to spice up your summer, all while supporting this podcast, then please do download Feeld using the exclusive download code: feeld.co/sextalks.

Hello and welcome to the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks is dedicated to engendering more open and honest conversations around typically taboo topics, specifically sex, relationships and the future of intimacy. In this Agonyan style podcast, I'm putting your sex, dating and general life woes to a guest agony on each week. From how to avoid losing yourself in love, to top tips for exploring kink for the first time, to finding love when you're feeling hopeless,

to overcoming sexual shame. Whatever you're struggling with, we got you. Submit your Aging Out Questions on the Sex Talks website. That's at sextalks.com. Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. I'm so excited to be joined on the Sex Talks podcast today by Kaggie Dunlop, who is the host of the Saturn Returns podcast, an author of Saturn Returns,

your cosmic coming of aid welcome to the podcast caggy oh thank you for having me i did i did warn you before my lovely neighbor has decided to become a dj so if you can hear some um deep house in the background it's kind of like one short track on loop you know that's him so we love it we god loves a try he's definitely trying um so kaggy you are my um guest agony up today so we're going to be working through some agony aunt questions that have been sent in from the sex talks community but before we do i just want to kind of get a bit more of a background on you and who you are for anyone who hasn't listened to the brilliant podcast so the podcast on the book obviously called satin returns your satin return had quite a big impact on your life for your career for anyone who has listened to you for anyone who

is as yet uninitiated with their Saturn return. Can you explain for us what it is? Sure. So your Saturn return is something that happens in your late 20s, around 29 and a half years, because Saturn as a planet returns to the same place in the sky it was when you were born. And with this, it brings this initiation into adulthood and cosmic coming of age, where we are faced with a lot of tough life lessons. Often if we haven't been living authentically, that can be brought to our attention and a lot of things can kind of fall apart during this time.

So it's a very tumultuous transition, but it's really one that seeks your truth, your authenticity, and when you come out the other side, you tend to feel a lot more grounded in who you are and to know who you are. and I just became very fascinated by the whole concept of it really because when I went through mine, everything did feel like it was turning upside down

and yeah, I just wanted to then start putting stuff out there to the world to help people know about this experience and to help them navigate the lessons that they are going to go through. Right. Let's get to some Agneon. Let's apply some of that wisdom learned through deep diving into astrology of the past couple of years and agony aren't some of the questions that I've been sent in I think are particularly resonant for the stuff that you're super interested in and I know that you're going to be fantastic answering these so Agni aren't question number one

this person's written in life I feel this girl I've been in and out of relationships since I was a teenager I'm now my late 20s my friends are adamant that I'm just a relationship type of girl And while I love relationships and definitely have a tendency to get into them quite quickly, I always seem to lose myself in whatever relationship I'm in. I almost morph into that person. I like what they like. I watch what they watch. I'm currently single for the first time and I want the next time to be different.

How do I prevent myself from losing myself in love? Does it say how old she is? No, it doesn't. I bet. She's like, late. 20s, 29, I reckon. But anyway, we'll never know. Because it just, it just sounds like that's such a, I resonate so deeply with that question or statement because my whole 20s, and I write about this in the book, were shape-shifting. They were morphing myself into whatever

place I found myself in whether that was a friendship group, but often it fell into the context of a romantic partnership where I would like what they like to eat what they eat, drink what they drunk, like all of the things. And in that process, you know, when we behave that way, which by the way I think is very normal, but it's perhaps to varying degrees, we then end up following someone else's paths. And when we go down someone else's path, it can be wonderful because it's sort of escaping from the responsibility of our own lives and our own happiness in a way. And we become a mess with the other person. But eventually there comes a point where you suddenly wake up and you're like, I don't like eating this food. I don't like going to

this place that I've said I like going to. I don't like behaving in this way. And we recognize that actually we've abandoned ourselves somewhere along the way. But the road back looks pretty unappealing. And so often we stay and we wrestle with reason to kind of convince ourselves that this is the right partner or the right person. But the truth is we probably should never have been with them to begin with. But women particularly are very programmed to adapt sort of the survival mechanism in a way of being the, is the word subordinate? And I'm not saying that women are, but I'm saying that we've been conditioned to feel like we are, because of the structure of the society that we have existed in,

whilst that's massively changing, you know, women's to survive, like women needed to be picked at one point, you know, for safety to have a roof over your head. And whilst we live in a very different world, like we're still, we still hold a lot of that feeling. And I always think of it when, and it's something I'm trying to dismantle it at the moment. So I may say this, and I might change my mind in a couple of months. But the way that women are so disproportionately congratulated to men on being and getting married, you know, it's like even if you're super successful, independent, there's still this thing, this underlying thing of like waiting to be picked and chosen.

And then when you are, it's like, oh my God, you're going to be okay, you know, you're going to be okay. This is wonderful. Whereas for men, it's kind of like, well done. you finally settle down or whatever it's very very different energy and I think that that contributes to you know the way that women do what this person is just describing but the beautiful thing about when you recognize that is it does give you an opportunity to actually get to know yourself and that usually comes through the demise of a relationship where we actually have to realize and recognize like we don't want to continue that pattern and it can be a scary

thing when you realize that you haven't actually given yourself that time. But it's an amazing one. And I definitely went through that. Like, the end of my Saturn return fell on, ended when a relationship ended. Like, almost the relationship was my Saturn return. It was very interesting because I only realized that when I was writing the book. But when I came out the other side of that, I was like, never doing that again. Doing that again. And you, you mentioned before the broader societal context in which that sort of interdependent relationship can be formed where historically women have needed to be with a partner economically. I mean marriage was fundamentally an economic institution, the safeguard women as you say. But outside of the

broader social context in which that can happen, what for you personally do you think drove you to be like that in relationships. What were you kind of looking for gravitating towards when you were in these relationships, you then kind of began to kind of lose a bit of yourself in? I think it was a behaviour pattern that probably begun when I was around 14, 15, where I just felt very, I felt very different when I was young. I was always a deep thinker. I was always very introspective. I'd have these sort of periods of melancholy that didn't see, I didn't think other people were experiencing them. And so I just was like, okay, I'm going to discard these aspects of myself and I want to fit in. Like there was such, and I think that as human beings

were very wired and driven to feel like we're part of a community or, or group or tribe. And in the process of trying to become part of something, we abandon aspects of ourselves. And that is like, you know, I think such a big aspect of just journeying through life is reclaiming those discarded parts. But when I was young, like around that age, I just wanted to be liked by people. I wanted to fit in and I would morph myself to do so, you know, and I was very, I was very outgoing, seemingly anyway. I was always at parties, which is so different from who I am now. now it's hard to get me out of the house past 6pm, whereas before it was hard to get me home before 6am, like it just, you know, like, it's just been, and I guess that is just part

of being older, but, you know, that then... I have a joy of growing up. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, but I think also there's an escapism and there's a safety in subcontracting your authority onto someone else, whether you apply that to a relationship, a career or a friendship because it's like, well, if it's their path, it's their, everything's their responsibility. And this is very subtle. It's not, you're not really thinking about it on a conscious level, but it's like you just get swept up in it and you escape the responsibility of having to

actually make decisions for yourself. Yeah. But I think I very much used to look to romantic relationships to, again, to a guest to show me how I could live my life. And I think I was very much a while in my twenties, dating in order to fill a void. I felt like being with someone who was really adventurous and active and lived this life that I really wanted, that would kind of, that would allow, that would give me access to this world. I didn't feel able to access alone. Often when we gravitate towards someone, it's, it's either because we see a likeness that there's similarity that perhaps we share values or even on a, you know, more biological level that there's like genetic matches and I always think that that's an amazing thing that you you don't

you don't think that one but it's like you know when someone just smells right all those kind of things which is just so fascinating but then there's the other side where which is usually when people are holding someone on such a pedestal that they don't really know so it can and we've all been there so like anyone that's listening this is no shame because we've all done it but when you basically have like one or two dates for someone and it doesn't go to plan or it fizzles out and then you're agonising over everything that you could have done differently, you fucked it up in some way,

you shouldn't have said that thing, you shouldn't have worn that outfit, you shouldn't have laughed at that thing that wasn't funny. And you just get into such a spin because you've projected like you say this idea of who you could be through them. But actually if you step back from that, you don't really know that person.

So it's not love. It's not love. But what it usually is, is they possess something that you really want for yourself, but you see them as the only way of possessing it. And if you're brutally honest with yourself, they're usually quite superficial things.

And that's totally fine. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, if you find them incredibly attractive, it's like, okay, well, you want to, people to find you attractive or feel that way about yourself or maybe they they live a very glamorous life and travel a lot like you want to live a glamorous life and travel a lot my bar was so low I have only just learned to drive so prior to this point of getting my license I was like

if someone had a drive legit the way to make me fall in love with you was to drive me somewhere I'd be like honestly someone would get me in their car and they do reverse parking I was honestly flawed. But again, it was, and it, it went deep in that, but it was, for me, the driving was this, again, it was this symbol of independence. Freedom, yeah. It was a freedom that I felt

I could only access through that person, through somebody else. And so it became this really, I mean, it was like, honestly, the, I literally had it on my hinge profile for a while. It's like, what are you looking for? Someone who can drive. But it was really notable.

I got my driver's license after, actually, I won't go into it now. A terrible date gone so wrong that left me a lot. alone in this, well, not alone, but with this all the person in a bungalow in the middle of nowhere and outside of Lisbon. And I remember thinking... Oh my God, I saw you just before that. I was going to ask you about how it went, but maybe... It was an absolute desire. By the way, just to add to the context, I last or whatever,

she was literally sailing off into the sunset for this Roma. And I knew you were like, got to do it for the plot. Like, this is going to... You were so buzzing about it. What happened? Or do we not have fun? I was... You know what? what, I'll do it in, I'll do it in a minute. It's such, it is actually, it's tragic. Time for a quick ad break, Kerti of our podcast Lord sponsor, Dating App Field. Field holds a very special place in my heart

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whether you're into ethical non-monogamy or not, Field is the app for you. We talk a lot about dating by design rather than default at sex talks. That is, dating the way you want to and not the way society tells you to. And Field really is the perfect app for helping you do just that. So wait not a second longer before downloading the Fields app now and get to a whole month of their majestic membership, think elite membership, for free by using the unique sex talks download code, field.com forward slash sex talks. I've also put the code in at the show notes. Okay, back to the show. Thank you, Field. So I was super excited. I was going to, Liz. I do always think just kind of do it for the plot and also just throw yourself in and see what happens. But I went away for a trip

with a semi-stranger who I'd met in passing at a bar in Lisbon a few months earlier and we've been talking loads ever since my love language is sharing podcasts and articles and being a complete nerd and he was so game for that anyway went to Lisbon, stayed with him the first few nights he'd booked this like three-day road trip he was like, stay with me, let's, why don't we go away for the weekend?

I was like, great, this sounds fantastic. So he books the whole weekend away. Talk about people putting one another on a pedestal. I think he put me in a pedestal, I didn't put him, But anyway, so we go away. We sat together the first night, and it was fine, but it was quite like, he then, he just kind of kept standing quite far away from me in all situations,

which physical distance, you know, big red flag. I'm like, what is going on? Wait, he was what? Physically distant? Just catch and, like, quite literally, I'd sit down and he kind of, like, sit two seats away from me. Oh, like, we were staying at this, urban bit. He just, like, would always be, like, physically far away.

this physical body language was not very positive anyway so we go first of all we go to um uh cithra we have a beautiful night there we have this kind of weird dinner take some mushrooms everyone's talking about psychedelics now I feel like that's legit to say

it was still quite weird he was being quite distant next day we had lunch with his friends again he was just there was something cold which given that we were on this weekend away I was like I don't know how to navigate this because I don't really know him that well I don't know how to talk about it anyway

we then do our two and a half hour drive to this place outside of Lisbon in a small little bungler in the middle of nowhere that he's booked. He continues to be quite distant. I make us this dinner. We have kind of very PG night of like chatting, watching music videos, but again, keeps his distance. There is just this coldness.

We go to bed, he like puts a laptop in between us so we can watch a movie. Second night in the row. I was like, okay, I'm getting the picture. Laptop in between us. Anyway, on the Sunday, he's like, we should take acid and go for a walk. And I was like... You're like, yeah, sure, why not? I was like, I've never taken acid, but

honestly, anything to escape this fucking awkwardness. So we take acid, we go through this week, he gave me an entire type of acid. I've never taken acid before. So I was high as a kite. I was, and it was, I can see why people do this for like, you know, some mind awakening thing. I can definitely, mind was awoken,

um, awakened. But then, then we were being quite tapped on because it was such an intense trip. I was like holding on to him and kind of, we were both kind of holding on to one another because it was so intense. We're kind of, you know, beautiful, beautiful nature surrounding us. Anyway, we're tripping. out for like hours and hours. I've most kind of discombobulated, disconnected from myself I've been. I was like, do I have a job? Do I have a name? Anyway, go back to the bungalow. We start

kissing. I love snogging as everyone will know who comes sex talks. And then he just pulls away from me. And I was like, oh, but energy shift was so palpable. And he's like, I've got to tell you something. And I was like, you don't. We're on acid. You do not have to tell me anything. We can save this for the morning. He's like, no, I've got to be honest. I've got to tell you how I feel. And he goes, I think you're amazing. You're so smart, but just, I don't find you at all physically attracted. I just, I'm not physically attracted to you at all. And I was like, okay, okay, and I'm there tripping in a full taxi wearing my sunglasses inside

because the trip is so intense. And he was like, I just feel so bad for you because I brought you on this trip away. And, you know, you obviously want to have sex with me, but I don't want to have sex with you at all. And I have to contextualize this. Like, I'm not, I wasn't like, one of him. I was like, we're on this weekend away that he's book. Like, what else are we going to do? And I was like, okay.

And he's like, I'm sorry, I just, I just physically, I just don't find, I just don't think you're attractive. You're just, I'm like, I get it. I'm hearing you loud and clear. So anyway, it had to go to bed. Oh, no. And what people, no, people probably do tell you this. I just hadn't asked anyone, but didn't know I was going to go on an Astor trip.

I didn't realize how long Asset trip. trips are so I had to go to this bed alone and trip out for another six hours just remembering this this moment anyway so the moral of that story is I remember the next day we had a two and a half hour drive back to Lisbon because obviously I don't drive and I thought at that moment I was like I cannot let this happen again I am never going to find myself in the middle of the countryside unable to make my own escape and three months later four months later I've got my driver's license and I really did me the silver lining I came back to London and I started less than that's a fucking great story it's got like TV show all over it

I can see that scene play out beautifully but look what an amazing thing came of it because you recognised you were like I want to have that freedom to be able to get in the car and get the fuck out of that hot exactly I was telling some friends other day they were like that is the best learning to drive story I've had and I think actually it is so so so and also nothing ventured nothing gayed i'm so glad that you went because these stories like you know you'll be we'll be telling these stories when we're like grannies do you know oh my gosh totally you need some really good worst dates and that is definitely up there with i'd say one of the worst it's not even that like it's fine and i said to the next day it's like you can totally withdraw your consent

we can not have sex again we can have sex once and then we don't have sex again like you can just that's totally okay i just like just to to to not tell me that you were feeling like a bit different not to not say as we were driving off like you know what I'm feeling a bit I'm remember just like make it up just tell me you would love the right scarf in which you definitely yeah I thought that's what was happening yeah but I'm just just say that but I was like to it's just so irresponsible to go on an acid trip with that hanging with you well he probably was like you know because it's I understand in a way why he didn't because it is one of those things it's a massive risk on both parties part when you

go away together and you plan something like i had a kind of similar ish story i mean we're detouring slightly but let's that's lots of lessons lessons to be learned in these stories i think i'll try and give the short version but a few summers ago i was it was like post-pandemic and me and my friend were living by the motto nothing ventured nothing gained so like we were just saying yes to every invitation and stuff and i went to a party in italy met this very charming Italian man who was sort of smitten by me, I was quite into him, and then I came back to London, he was like, I don't want it to be a week before we see each other again, because we kind of spent this whole night at this party together. And I was like, okay, and he's like,

I'm booking you a flight to Italy, one-way flight, which was the first sort of mini alarm bell. But of course, I like you was like, this is the beginning of a brilliant love affair, packed a massive suitcase, was like, goodbye, I'm going to Italy for the summer. And I am. got to the airport and he picked me up and I was like yeah I'm still kind of into this like sure went to his house in the middle of nowhere um like family house and then I started to be like not sure I'm feeling this and he had booked for us to go and spend three nights in this hotel on an island of Italy so then I'm at this house and I'm like starting to freak out and be like and everywhere I was trying to get away from him

and he would follow me into every room and I was like oh my God I don't know what to do and then basically we were driving to the island and I was like if I go to the island I don't know like I'm stuck on the night I can't get off it and again I had no way of like getting anywhere he was driving and I was quite dependent on him and then suddenly like thunderstorms

started happening. I just felt like that was God speaking to me. And we had to pull over and we were in Portafino and I was like, can we just stop for a drink for a second? And we stopped and I was like, I'd started messaging my mum. I can't believe I'm showing the story. I think I've shared it once before. I was like, mum, I need you to book your flight. And she was like, you're not 14 anymore what's wrong with you and um and anyway said to him i was like i'm really sorry but i'm not feeling this and i i'm not i don't want to come to the island and he like kind of lost it and was like screaming at the italian gods for sending me um and i was like oh my god it was like he had like a mini breakdown and just like he just shifted as a person but to be fair i understood like he was

upset but then he obviously had to drive me to the airport and he was like speeding in the car he was like then trying to convince me not to go and I was like no no I really want to go we got to the airport and he was like you're going to regret this for the rest of the life I'm like no I won't I'll be so grateful and then I got on the plane I was like oh my god thank God but I did actually it gained the whole thing gave me quite a lot of anxiety I was like maybe I should slow down And they're like these like, crick, maybe I'm getting too old for this. You know what I'll say, though? Actually, first of all, I think there's lessons we learn that everyone,

you need to have a driver's license and everyone's car. Wherever you are in the world, you need to be able to escape whoever you're with. We should call this episode Driving License. It's like that song by Olivia Rodriguez. It's like, you know, she got a driving license after that heartbreak. That's what it's about. get your independence, ladies. It's basically being able to escape a person you don't,

we're having terrible time with. And you actually, and actually being able to get yourself out of a situation. And there is something that I do think is really, I found it very galvanising to be able to keep myself safe in these sorts of situations now. Because I think in my early 20s, I really didn't know how to, you know,

that situation, and I said this time with the guy in Lisbon, I was like, had this happened in my mid-20s, I honestly would have fallen to pieces. this, it was sort of absolutely crushed me. Like I just, and I woke up the next day and I had all these thoughts on my head being like, oh, I'm too fat, I'm too ugly, I'm unattractive. Like, it brought up so much stuff also that I'd gone through in sex therapy. I was like, oh my God, I'm not sexual enough.

Like, it was just, it was so horrible. I had this real moment of like, I've had this kind of lurching feeling and turning like, oh, I can't believe that I'm back here, that I'm not good enough, that I'm, like, I'm disgusting that someone literally finds me physically repellent that, you know, that we're in this bung. And then I was like, no. we cannot do this again. This is a cycle that has to

and has been broken. And I was like, I'm fucking great. I am actually the best person doing a holiday with. I'm so fun. I'm up for everything, including a fucking ass trip. But also like that come,

I think those things come up. And this is, like we've again all been there when we're faced with that rejection that's so agonizingly painful because it triggers that part of us that's rejected ourselves. and it's like that person echoes and mirrors all of those unkind things we've said about ourselves

but that's the medicine like when we can actually be faced with that and be like no actually I am great it's like you know the conversation I had in the following day I was like I'm good I'm fine I actually saw him a week later at dinner because I was like I want to close this chapter well and so we went for dinner on my last night at Lisbon

and I was like blowing fresh of the beach I put so much brothel on. He was like, God, he's such a pan. I was like, I know. And I'd seen to, I'd gone to a sexual, I'd gone to a sexual healer who'd give me this amazing orgasm. Like that's a bit story for the day. Um, I'd had the best week and he was like, I'm so confused. And he said, he's like, I'm so confused. Like, you seem so happy and like confident. And I was like, why would I not be? He's like, I just, I thought I'd ruined your trip. And in that, I was like, the arrogance, first sport. But second one, I was like, I was so proud that I was able to kind of pick myself back up and walk on and not be crushed by something that definitely would have taken a steamroller to my confidence like five years previously. So I think we do have these experience. And like you being able to get on that plane, there is something that the independence just being able to book your flight as your mum said and get yourself home. It's so important. And I think it's such a like learning curve that unfortunate that these situations have to be so painful in the moment. But also to, you know, it's, I've had

experiences of rejection where and it's been like one of my bigger like so many people and men and women like we place our sense of self on that other person validating and seeing us and it's a futile pursuit because actually like we're all so unique we're going to work with certain people and we're not going to with others like I spoke earlier about you know the fact that certain people will smell amazing to someone and it also like you know someone will could kiss you and you'd be like he was the worst kiss and he could kiss me and I'd be like he was the best kisser. So

the nuances of why certain people work together is so specific and unique and it's nothing to do with better or worse so don't waste your time on chasing someone that's just not the right fit for you.

And just before we move on to the next Agniant question I did want to bring up one lesson that I really took away from listening to a podcast I think is relevant to this person's current woe. And that was the Mark Groves episode. It was from the Mark Groves episode, which I absolutely loved on Saturn Returns podcast,

in which he discusses how romantic relationships are like magnifying glasses. So they hold up a magnifying glass to patterns that all exist in our life. So, for example, when it comes to our boundaries, if we are, if we struggle to assert firm boundaries in the context of being, in a romantic relationship, we are more than likely struggling to have proper boundaries in all other aspects of our life. And so actually, when we can see the issues that we are confronting in romantic relationships in this kind of hyper-concentrated way and we can deal with them, then actually it improves our relationships across the board. And can you reflect a little bit

on what you took away from that conversation and how maybe you've learned to address any issues with boundaries that you've had in relationships before? Yeah, because I think also there's this romanticised idea that the perfect person will come along and they won't push any of our buttons and they'll just miraculously know what we're thinking and what we need and it will just be easy and breezy and that's just not true. The right person for us will be our teacher and will be theirs and within that their wounds will set off your wounds. Like that's just going to happen and then we get to a point often I was listening to a podcast about this and it was saying that like after a year and a half two years you suddenly get things like

someone else wouldn't make me feel this or someone else wouldn't bring up this stuff and historically that's been my pattern where you know just before a year like nine months I'd be I'd be out you know because I'd be like oh well there'll be something else that's more perfect that like doesn't bring up anything and actually I've realized that you know you can have multiple relationships with one person and you go through all these ebbs and flows and it's a really beautiful thing when like and mark because i asked mark when he came on the podcast the first time like when do you know whether to stay or go and he was like when they you know both people are willing saying like yeah i'm i'm still showing up for this and it doesn't matter what goes down doesn't matter like what someone's done

it does not matter what other people have to say if both people still want to come into the room and be like, yeah, I'm here. I'm showing up. This is hard as fuck, but I want to do it because I want this relationship. Anything is possible to work through, but it just takes that willingness from both people. And you also have to be prepared to look and confront your own stuff. And the tricky thing is like the interdependence versus like taking ownership and responsibility for your own shit. And the reality is we're not going to get that perfect. So when we do get triggered by our partner, which we will, we tend to like project the pain that's already there and make them responsible for it in the moment. And like, that's why sometimes you've got to have the tools

that for time out or to diffuse things before they escalate. Because when you're activated, it's very hard in the moment because it becomes a rightness versus wrongness kind of thing and no one gets anywhere because you're not listening or understanding the other person's experience. You're just hearing that their story invalidates yours so you're trying to squash it. Whereas actually if you can check out and see that person compassionately and yourself, because I always like to think, like, there aren't two people in a relationship, there's four, there's you and your partner, and there's your inner child, and their inner child. And they're going to grab the wheel quite a lot.

And that's like the beautiful thing because in a relationship we can heal those parts. But it's like incredibly painful because you're trusting that person to hold that part of you. I think, like, I think it was my therapist this week actually said, she was like, you know, when, she said it's so beautifully, but she was like, when someone is witnessing your pain and they're listening and they're understanding it, you are giving them the opportunity to like hold your broken heart, your broken bleeding heart and care for it, even when you're being like nasty sometimes. And like, I just thought that that was so true because we all come with our own. baggage and experiences and trauma and heartbreak and all these patterns that were just are just there because we needed them to be there at some point to survive but they get to a place where they're not serving us and then the relationship is like the container that allows us to deepen our connection with self and I and Mark again always speaks about how the depth we can go to it with one person is a direct correlation to the depth we can

experience within ourselves and when someone taps out like that might again it's not on you necessarily it's just that they can't go there yet in themselves and they're not ready for that um we're going to move on to adding up question number two and actually there's going to be quite a nice lot of overlap with some of the things we've already brought up so we can always through this one so this person is written in to say i've been in my relationship for two and a half years my boyfriend is amazing he's kind he knows my needs he's entangled in my life my parents and friends love him on paper it's the perfect relationship but why do i feel like i want more that something isn't quite right i'm scared of breaking up with him as i feel like no one will

understand my decision and i'm terrified of never finding anyone as good as him and ending up dying alone surrounded by cats will this feeling go away or should i leave him so a couple of things come to mind with that one one it kind of goes back to that stuff we were saying of you know, when the person represents the things we want in ourselves. Like, I think it's always important to be aware of, do you want someone shinier because you think that's going to make you feel better? So that's one thing. Does that make sense?

It's like, you know, sometimes like, this person isn't good enough or, like, I want someone that's more glamorous or whatever. It's like that's coming from, again, like an external validation rather than actually, like, is this person aligned with who I am and my intrinsic values? I think especially if you've been in a long-time relationship for quite a while, I think it is easy to romanticise all the kind of people outside of your relationships. I remember when I was in a long-time relationship and had, like, a mental checklist of people I really wanted to sleep with if we ever broke up. And we did break up one day, and I did sleep with all the people on my list.

And no one compared. There you go. And it's that romanticisation. And I think sometimes it can be a way of deferring responsibility for taking the action in the relationship you're in that will potentially make it better. I remember with Mike's partner, I definitely put so much on him to fix things.

I was like, I'm not happy. I want more. We don't do enough, like, we don't do enough adventures together. We don't have enough fun together. And I expected him to solve that, yeah. To solve it. And that was a me problem. He was so game to do the stuff.

I wanted to do, but I didn't really know what that was. And I actually ended up apologising Tim, before my 30th birthday, we had like a long sit down and talk through it. And I said, I'm so sorry, I wanted you to solve all my existential problems. I wanted you to provide the answers to the problems I feel like I couldn't solve alone. And you, I didn't even know how to articulate those problems. And in the end, I need to be alone to do it. But I realized, like, I had to take responsibility for things that I was finding frustration,

frustrating in my life. I had to take the action. No one else can do it for you. And also whether it's, you know, putting the effort in and showing up more in the relationship or a similar thing when you're feeling a bit, you know, having those sort of existential crisis thoughts about your identity or your purpose. And it's very easy to then look outside and go, well, that person, that person looks like it will take away these feelings. And it's very easy to project that and romanticise on people we don't know. Whereas the reality of a relationship,

like aspects of it are tough and when you get to know people you get to know all their kind of quirks and insecurities and vice versa so I think that's one point then the other is like the fear of not finding someone I think is a really corrosive but very common thing especially for women because we're told that our shelf life is like social and that we're going to be discarded by society sort of post 30 basically for our single status. And I hate that. I hate that. No, I honestly, I think it's so awful because I hear the most wonderful women refer to themselves in this way or like feel this anxiety about it.

I'm like, you're fucking amazing. You've got everything going for you. And a real man will not be phased by it. And I also hear men saying like, they don't mean anything by it because it's just so commonly thrown around. But they'll be like, oh, you know, I know a lot of amazing.

women in their 30s but the pool is so small and they're like almost 40 I'm like but why is the pool big for you and it's more for us like and I think actually that that timeline is the problem because it I mean we and we obviously you know the biological clock is kind of a real thing and gets totally over-eged but I think by creating no pun intended or under-egged but by by creating the sense that we are like running up against the clock to find our person to have our family like question like do we even want the family but it kind of creates this pressure cooker environment that I think fosters a scarcity mindset that like I'm at a deficit I'm 30 now I'm single like oh I will have those moments of thinking shit I really do need to find someone now like time is running out and in feeling like in having the scarcity mindset and the context of dating. I think it can be quite damaging because it means you make bad decisions. You make bad decisions. You basically say you kind of write off the things that are important to you for this. You prioritise having a relationship over finding someone you actually want to be with and want to grow with.

Because a lot of the times the things that we know, we can find the values and the and the things we want in our friends and people around us. But I think if we can, if we're just so focused on finding this romantic partner because we feel like we need to find them right now and otherwise and actually now is already too late. We make bad decisions as you say and so I think we have to remove that pressure and realize that life is long and that it's not something like love and romance isn't something to be rushed and to be kind of to run into it with this sense of like I have to do this now. A hundred percent and also you know you might tick that box and you know I think a lot of people do do this where they

rush they perhaps have been with someone a certain amount of time they're like oh well I'm at that age and I'm at that stage this is what I should do but then you know would you rather stop now and you know have the freedom to find something new

or would you rather wait and then potentially spend like seven six five however many years and then get a divorce and then have do you know what I mean like it doesn't mean that you're going to be messy and admin heavy avoid. Yeah, it's really not something. And I think people really overlook that, you know, because they just want to, they don't think forward enough. Or they think forward in a way

that's not considering the reality of that possibility. And it feels maybe the, they've prioritised being in a relationship over and above everything else. So the sacrifices in the moment feel worth it. Totally. But it's, but over a long period of time, the sacrifices become harder and harder to bear. And if you haven't, if you have molded yourself to a person and a relationship that doesn't, it isn't quite right. It's more just to be in the relationship. That comes out. It's very hard to sustain that. Because you're building something on pretty bad foundations. 100%. And I guess it fundamentally comes down to like, are you making this decision based on fear or trust and faith? Because when we're in that kind of fear based, oh God, I'm

terrified of being alone or dying with a flat full of cats or whatever it's like you're not making decisions from a place of trust and faith and I always think a good kind of indication is if you can really check into your body and get into that place of trust of being knowing that you're being supported and then ask yourself like is staying expanding me or is leaving expanding me and you're probably going to get a clear indication physically or it will come to you quite quickly. But I think that that's the best way because you don't know what's going to happen. So the linear mind will be like, oh, but if I stay, we'll get this house and then we'll take off this thing and we have this life. But also you don't know that that's true.

And you also don't know that if you leave, you're going to end up dying in a house full of cats. So it's like just like actually just trusting what your body is to. telling you. And I think that that's the best advice. And you have this great phrase in the book in which you say, don't settle for half love, which I really like, it really resonated with me. Can you explain what you meant by that? Well, it's kind of just what we were discussing. I think a lot of people convince themselves that what they're in is enough because they don't necessarily think they're worthy or they don't think that the full experience is out there. And so whilst it's important to acknowledge that yes relationships take compromise like there are certain

things that you shouldn't compromise on and if you really know what you value and what you want and you want someone that like just adores and worships you don't settle for someone that doesn't make you feel that way because someone will and again it's that thing of trusting that not to burst your bubble but I did see a very funny meme the other day but resonated or hit my hit my heart quite a quite painful way it said just because you haven't found your person doesn't mean you will and I was like oh god I don't know maybe I'm a hopeless romantic but I even like when I was single for ages like and I never like dated that much I was always like just actively rejected or

all of that noise that was coming at me of like, oh my God, I need to freeze my eggs. Oh my God, I'm never going to find out. Oh my God, there are no good men left. I was just like, no, no, no. Because it's just, I think you've just got to have a little bit of faith in this stuff. And also know that whatever is going to happen is part of your journey and your path and the lessons you're supposed to learn. And like, when I'm going through something that's filled with a lot of uncertainty,

I always talk, like, say, I'm like, just show me the truth. to show me the truth of this situation and if that's an uncomfortable truth that I don't want to see like so be it but I think for a while I would ignore the truth of things and that got me into a tricky situation where it suddenly revealed later down the line

you're like I fucking knew that but I just ignored it I knew you're a pathological lion was actually married and didn't live with your niece and yeah women women no women, no, so trust. And what I really struggle with, I think, in this period, and because

similarly to you, I think, I count myself as being quite good at shaking off those external pressures of having this kind of ticking time bomb, I need to find my partner, have kids or whatever, freeze my eggs. I'm like, you know, it's, this is a tale's oldest time, women have always been pushed to get married,

to set their family, and I reject that, I'm focusing my business. I have amazing friends. But I do find I do want a relationship. I don't really like dating at the moment that much. I think kind of the dispensibility of people that has been kind of created through dating apps and through this idea that there's always so many other people, so many other options has made dating just, it's quite a lot of effort, which I just don't have the energy for that because I want to be building my business, building my empire, and becoming a millionaire and then investing in female-led businesses. But I do find myself, I think probably because of previous rejections because of Lisbon story, because of this thing, I feel like I'm going

into dating quite defensively. And you said before, there are four people in a relationship. There's you, there's your partner, and then you're both your inner child. And I think before you're in a relationship, you have you, the person you're flirting with or whatever, and then what you're projecting, all your fears, your insecurities, your anxieties. And also what you're projecting into them, like, all this, like, fantasy of who they are. Like, you know, you're speaking to them online and you're imagining your wedding dress and like them as your future husband and you don't know what they're imagining but it's like just it's projecting all the time I'll be I'll be I'll often be like I just I think I'll love it to someone that's like my love

language I'm like I don't even know you I don't know if you'll love this book you might hate this book I don't know what you like but how what advice would you have for some for a guest like helping to shake those I guess it comes from insecurity it's like a defence mechanism. If you go in with your defences up, I kind of often feel like I'm so quick to feel rejected. I think that's, I'm so quick to feel like, oh, this person isn't able to do this evening. They're not free time. They must not like me and I'm not going to try anymore. And I'd rather just withdraw immediately now than risk the pain of continuing to put myself out there. Well, I think all of these things do often stem from childhood, but that's another tale for another

And that's another podcast. But when we, you know, I really believe it's so important to, I don't like when people say, oh, you have to love yourself before you can be in a relationship. Because I think that that stops people from actually putting themselves out there. Or in the same breath that there's, you know, ask the other person in a child, there's also within that the opportunity and importance of like reparenting. So I would say like firstly really getting to know yourself and romancing your life independently from a romantic relationship.

And like you said earlier, like sometimes it's our friendships that possess the qualities that we look for in a partner. And that was one of the most unexpected things that happened for me when I actually went through this big breakup and then sort of cultivated a community of women that gave me that same sense of love and support. And I didn't realize that that was even possible. But from that place, and I wasn't like seeking a romantic relationship because I didn't need to fill that void anymore.

And when you kind of are coming from it from that place of it's a want, it's not a need, it's a very different energy. And you're not looking to that person to validate you or make you feel seen because you already feel seen and you already feel understood. and that's through community, through friendship, but also through yourself, like seeing yourself as worthy. And that's, it's really hard work. But, you know, like, reparenting is so important

because it's like if someone doesn't respond to your message or rejects you or ghosts to you and you get that feeling, it's important to remember, like, if you're getting some kind of hysterical reaction, which we've all had, but then you actually... objectively look at the situation and think, well, I only had one drink with that person. I don't actually

know them. They don't know me. Don't know anything about them. Yeah. Why am I like, why am I on the floor in a bull crying, like seeking their love? And then if I don't get it, I just am not a worthy human being. Because it's historical, you know, so it's triggered something that already

exists. So if there's some kind of reaction like that, it's already in there and it's an opportunity to be like, okay, there's work to do and to re-parent yourself and to learn to kind of self-sues and like hold yourself in those moments and have a curiosity rather than a judgment to not try and ignore or escape the pain and again think that if they see us then we won't feel it anymore which is just not true and again like not worth trying to pursue but then also when we do go into relationship,

rather than putting the other person on the pedestal, put yourself on a pedestal. Like, go into it being like, I bring a lot to the table. Like, if this person's messing around, whatever, like, I'm not interested. Have those really clear boundaries. And don't be afraid.

This is one of the biggest things I had. Do not be afraid to go slow. Because films, media, all of it tells us that romance is about, I love you on the first night, whisk you away on holidays to a cabin in Lisbon, to an island in Italy. That's what we get sold. But actually, like, that's love bombing and it's not healthy. And I think actually when we're dating someone, like, it takes a while to get to know them. And you should go into it thinking, are they worthy of me? Is this person where, are they showing up? Like, what are they

action saying, not just what their words are saying. Like, are they matching up? Is this person got the same values as me? Do they have, you know, are they living in alignment with their integrity? All of these things take time. And I think we very quickly, like, we can go on one date with someone where we're like, they have to like me. Like, this is it. But that's, that's not how it works. And so I think just don't be afraid to go slow. It's a bit like when you meet someone new in a new friend and there's no expectation with new adult friends

that you are going to have this sudden friendship romance and tomorrow you're going to meet up and then you're going to meet up again and go away this weekend. You expect that there is going to be a bit of a time lapse. You go for your lunch,

you have your drink and it builds over time and I think actually taking that same mentality and approaching new romantic interests with what does it take to build a friendship with this person? That's the foundation. are the foundations of the best romances. And I think also then it takes the pressure up you

of thinking that you somehow need to kind of perform this romantic role that you need to hand deliver yourself as this perfect partner. One, there is no such thing. But two, you're still getting to know each other. You don't actually have any real foundation upon which to build something on. So it's kind of setting those, that foundation, I guess, of a friendship first and then going from there. And really like building that trust between you and that person.

because I've got friends like who recently one of my friends were saying that she was started dating someone but he you know wasn't sure whether he wanted a relationship but wanted to just hang out and she just like tried to cut it off like right at the beginning and he was like whoa we're just getting to know each other like we don't know what's going to happen here but I think it can bring up a lot of fear for people because it's sitting in that discomfort of the not knowing that's it and a lack of control and a lack of of control exactly because when someone said yeah but if someone you know if someone said like oh I love you I want to marry you like whisks your way on holiday that makes you feel like you're

in control but it's it's you're not you're not exactly we're going to whip through this final question just because I think this is so perfect for your book and so we will I'm conscious of time but let's race through um adding on question number three I'm 28 and I feel lost in my life I can't seem to stick at anything nor anyone and while my friends are getting onto their third promotions at work some are settling down with their partners buying flats I feel like I'm floating when someone asks me what I want for my life

what I want to do and who I want to be I freeze up and feel totally overwhelmed I don't want to get left behind but I'm paralysed by the fear that I will make the wrong decision and pick the wrong life what should I do? Again

I feel that one like that is so how I felt when I was 30 actually so I was a bit older but I remember and I speak about this in the book I went to see it was I'd just gone through this breakup I thought that that was the relationship you know even though I knew it wasn't right I was like this is what we should do because this is the age and this is what people are doing and it felt like everyone was filing their lives into some kind of meaning whereas mine just wasn't solidifying but I was pursuing things but not really meeting so much resistance

and I felt so much shame in not knowing that I didn't like anyone asking me about my career and then of course like the one thing that I felt was solid which was my relationship disintegrated before my very eyes so I was like fuck what do I do and I went to see a healer

and I went primarily to talk about the relationship and like I wanted to know whether we were going to get back together and all this stuff and she just kind of dismissed that and she was like asking me about my career and at the time I was pursuing music and she was like, what do you do? And I was like, I'm a singer. And she was like, she was sort of reading the energy of my feet. And she was like, it's not resonating in

your body. And I was like, but it was also the directness in which she said it, which no one obviously had. And because it was like a healer, it wasn't, it wasn't offensive. She was just saying what she was picking up on. And I was like, I know, but like, I don't know what to do because I've been pursuing it for so long that I've told everyone that's what I'm doing and everything. She was like, well, just tell me the things that you like to do. Like, what do you enjoy? And so I was like, I like poetry. I like storytelling. I like connecting. And like holding space or like astrology and like spirituality. And she was just nodding. She was like, these are all true and these are all the things you should do. And I was like, but that's not

a career. And she was like, it will be. She was like, you're so tunnel vision on one thing, you're missing all the opportunities. She was like, when people ask you now, what you do, be like, I'm actually at the moment I don't know, I'm figuring it out, and I'm like embarking on this new chapter. And she was like, just shift your energy around it, that it's an exciting new period of discovery. She was like, because people actually don't, aren't judging you and they don't like, it's just us. You don't really care. They don't really care. They're all consumed with their own stuff. And I remember interesting story. Yeah. You just want to, you just want to know the kind of interesting facets of someone's life.

You don't really care, but I always felt this need that I had to kind of justify, I guess like justify my worth. And I was very much same mentality as you. I felt like my, I defined myself through my, by my career, but I didn't really understand what my career was. I had this constant inner battle raging within me that was like, your worth is tied to what you do. You are ambitious you are smart you are hardworking but what do you want to do and the answer was I don't know and for so long it ate away me my poor parents were on the end of the phone the whole time just being like just stop worrying you're spending all this time worrying I wish going back I wish I could the thing I regret is not the things that I did or didn't do or whatever it was just that

living with that like thundercloud over my head feeling like everything was this big make or break moment and something an old colleague actually said to me a very dear old colleague and friend mentor said to me the day which really resonated she said you need to stop trying to control the outcome of what you're doing whether that be romantically when it comes to your career anything and just really focus on the input what are you putting into the project and do you enjoy it do you enjoy do you enjoy the experience and i think it's it goes back to that kind of clicheed saying of you know you've got to enjoy the ride it's not about the destination but i think that framing of it really hit me

because I think it allowed me to see that throughout the majority of my 20s I was trying to control the outcome if I take this job will I have the career I want if I move to America will I want to set up my family here will I meet my husband here will I do all these things I was always thinking about the outcome

of every decision which completely blinded me to whether I was actually happy in that moment doing it and I wasn't half the time and that's exactly you're liberated from that complete like that heaviness. A hundred percent and I think that sounds like what this girl is experiencing and again like I get it because I was then and just like you I was it was all

conditional on it being a certain outcome and therefore I would agonise over every single decision because I was like but is it getting me there whereas like now I place importance on like day to day living because the real also like 99% of your life is just the the mundane day to day, the kind of outcome destination point is just really one moment. Do you know what I mean? Like that job you get or whatever and like, yes, it might bring you certain things. But you see so many people that strive for that kind of success and they get to that place and they realize they don't feel any happier. And so they put the goalpost further down and keep chasing. And it's that sort of hedonic treadmill mentality. Whereas like,

after I had that session with that person, it felt like I just took off a backpack of opinions and I was like, okay, I'm just going to focus on the things that I love to do and see what happens. But, you know, life shifts and it twists and turns and everyone is on their own timeline. So it's important to remember that just because people are doing things, like, that's just your immediate circle. I always think I really try and encourage people to surround themselves with a mix of people, different ages, different stages, different life choices. Because it's only by comparison. If you've got 10 friends and they're all 30 married with kids, like, yeah, you're going to feel like the odd one out. But if you've got a mixture of different

people living different lives in wonderful, different ways, like just focus on the way you're living yours and you'll be okay. And actually, just to go full circle back to the beginning the conversation, I mentioned when I was discussing my approach to dating, which is very looking for someone else who could fill my void of, I guess, helped me explore the adventurous side of myself, you know, learn new activities and hobbies and be more come outdoorsy, which something I'd always wanted to be. I think the reason I hadn't really, I hadn't really given myself permission to explore those things because I was so obsessed with work. And I was like, until I have controlled my career, until I have created this worthwhile, successful career,

I cannot let go of anything else. I cannot explore other things of my personality. I cannot go on, I didn't ever want to go on a big traveling trip or do anything big because I felt like I would lose control over this intangible, ever-shap-shaping thing that was my career.

I was exactly the same. I was like, what the fuck? You didn't gain anything from sitting in your kitchen stressing how like. And being like, no, I bet I can't do that. I was always a kind of different. I thought that if I, I needed to defer my enjoyment of life until I was at the point in my career where I was successful enough to deserve it or something.

To deserve it. Exactly. To deserve it. And the thing is, you're never really going to get there because your career is always going to be evolving and changing and developing and actually doing the other things. I mean, now I probably spend too much time. I travel loads, but I think the things I allow myself to do now also really shape my thinking and my personality, which then invariably feeds into my work. And it's also, I want to now design my life in such a way that I'm able to travel, that I'm not tied to a desk every single day, that I have complete autonomy over my day-to-day, over my career, because there's so many things I want to do, there's so many lives I want to live. And I feel like I'm just kind of at the start of it.

So I think actually the key thing is to just really, I guess, like open your own. eyes a bit to think beyond just work in your career, to what kind of life do you want to live and to live a life by design rather than default, which I think sometimes we can forget. 100%. And also to kind of give a little bit extra to that question, it's a very simple piece of advice, but people often come to me with similar points of, you know, that paralysis analysis of not knowing what choice to make. But the only wrong step is not taking one. And I say that from a place of experience where I just froze because I just was like, I don't know which direction to go.

I don't know who to follow. I don't know who to listen to. Again, because I was like so set on a specific outcome, but I couldn't see the path to get there. And actually, that was the only thing that I regret doing because, you know, similar to what you just said, I also wasn't taking the opportunities to just live my life within that because I was so frozen. and ultimately like we don't know how things are going to unfold but there'll be a lesson within it

so just make a decision take a step and trust the process very simple advice but yeah but it's a goody love that um and just to wrap up then kaggy what has been for me such an enjoyable conversation and one i could continue for hours and hours what is one piece of advice you would like to kind of close this conversation on one thing that you know now, perhaps, that you wish you'd known, kind of at the start of your 20s, the start of your career, your love life? Well, I usually, I would have probably gone with, you know, the only wrong stuff is not taking one, but I've used that one. So let's think of something else. For my 20s, you know, I traveled around a lot. I lived many different lives. And I'm so glad I did. And I think,

all the opportunities because your 20s, you know, like I say in the book, they're a mock exam for life, like don't worry about getting it wrong. And I know a lot of people equally that didn't do that. And now they're in their 30s and they're like, I wish I just went and lived in that country or I went, wish I tried out that job. So even though you may think you should have it all figured out, like you really shouldn't. And your 20s are just an opportunity to get to know yourself, what you like, what you dislike, to kind of go back to one of the previous questions about, you know, partnership as well. Like we, we need the experiences to refine who's right for us. We need to be with someone that's not to be like, you know what, that really doesn't

work with me. I had no idea that that was such a deal breaker, but it is. We can't just get it right straight off the bat. So that's kind of, it's not a very succinct thing. But yeah, your 20s are for mock exam for life and oh i've kissed all the frogs i mean it's time for me to learn it's time for me to kiss no more frogs but you know what you do learn a lot on the frogs um we're going to wrap up there thank you so much it's been an absolute joy again to talk to you where can we find you so saturn returns is on all the streaming platforms uh that's the podcast and then The book is available from any retailer. I suggest probably getting it from Amazon.

Thank you for that little plug. And then we've just launched online courses, which is at saturn returns.co.uk. Amazing. Check out the courses. Kagi, it's for a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Before we end the show,

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