Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - *LIVE* How to fix a 'broken' v@gina with Fran Bushe and Ruby Rare

Episode Date: February 6, 2022

S3x Talks is the new series exploring issues around s3x, desire and the female pleasure taboo and for the first session of the year, I thought I'd bring a little bit of comedy to our sex chats. Following the publication of her new book, My Broken Vagina, author and comedian Fran Bushe joins me on the Sex Talks stage to discuss all she learned at Sex Camp - the two-week “conscious sexuality festival” that offers workshops designed to reconnect attendees with their sexual “juices". *This episode is a live recording of a previous Sex Talks event.* After struggling to climax for years, Fran set out to discover how to have better orgasms. The result is a raucously funny, informative and at times heart-rending book into which we are going to deep-dive over the course of the evening. I'll also be joined by sex educator, artist, and body-positive champion, Ruby Rare, who's on a mission to engage people of all ages in positive conversations about their pleasure. The author of 'Sex Ed: A Guide for Adults', there really is no one better to guide us through an evening discussing sexual self-exploration.  Enjoy the show! Emma-Louise x

Hello and welcome to the live podcast recording of sex talks. New event series held at the London edition, focused on engendering more frank, open and vulnerable discussions around sex. I'm your host, Emma Louise Boynton, co-founder of the Female Focus Production Agency Her Hustle. And throughout this series, I'll be exploring a range of topics surrounding sex, desire and the female pleasure taboo. I wanted to start this series because while sex is everywhere, sex cells remember, What we're most often confronted with is a heavily sanitise, and often idealised version of sex. Depictions which only really serve to reinforce reductive stereotypes around the kind of sex we should be having, how we ought to feel about sex, what a sexy body is meant to look like.

So while sex may be everywhere, it's still a topic shrouded in social taboo and the source of so much shame for so many. After doing sex therapy myself for a year, I realised how the issues that show up in the context of sex, like, not being able to orgasm, for example, are often reflective of so many broader personal as well as social and political issues. It fast became an area I really wanted to explore, and thus, sex talks was born. If you want to join me at the next live sex talks event, headen over to the event bright link in the show notes, or else to my Instagram page where I post all the juicy event details. Okay, I hope you enjoy today's show. I'm going to introduce my wonderful speakers who I have been so looking forward to interviewing. I, before

any event I like just immerse myself in the world of whoever I'm interviewing and it has been such a pleasure getting to immerse myself in both of your worlds in your books and the podcast you've done so you've been accompanying on all my runs I'm really into your sex lives masturbation habits porn scrolling I'm here for it so it's been a joy so by way of introduction Ruby who I have to say we actually went to primary school together and it's the first time we've seen each other in adulthood which is a really strange 20 that oh god god i thought have i been alive long enough for 20 years to pass i'm like surely not she says almost 30 um but i was saying ruby used to have the most amazing fancy dress costumes at school my sister and i just out my mom would come with little

like cat nose because my mom would forget that it was fancy dress and she'd be like just be cats we're black we were like fine fine and ruby would come in these amazing costumes which her mom would make, which just stand out. They're like front of mind. They were so ornate and fabulous, so that she looks so wonderful a time now is no surprise to me. But by way of introduction, Ruby Ware, I'm actually going to read you out the bio you sent me, which I don't usually do, but I so loved your bio that it genuinely made me smile when I read it. So I have to let you guys all hear it. So Ruby Ware is a pink-haired sex educator, author, and public speaker on a mission to get people talking more confidently and inclusively about sex.

Her work is influenced by, oh, it dims quite quickly, by her experiences as a queer, non-monogamous, dual heritage person. She's a proud ambassador for Brooke, the UK's leading sexual health charity for young people, co-founder of Life Drawing Collective Body Love Sketch Club, which we will discuss later, and I'm so obsessed with, and I'm definitely coming to the next one, and is listed as one of 24 figures making a positive change to social media in cosmopolitan's 2021 positivity index. In 2020, her debut book, Sex Ed, a Guide for Adults, was published by Bloomsbury, and her new podcast series In Touch has just launched. It is so good.

I have become a bit of a fan girl, so I will be, yeah, giving that a shout out later. In her spare time, this is a bit that really made me smile. Ruby eats an obscene amount of vegan jelly, watches the PowerPuff Girls, and collects vintage penwares, which I didn't know what they were until Penirs are like 1950s, 60s like super synthetic, flammable like necloshae and like long house rowie things so I've got about 35 of them

and I've been collecting since I was 16 I love that highly flammable that's like my dressing gown which I'm sure I'm going to go up on flames one day and Fran I've just finished your book and it's been a total joy Fran is an award-winning playwright performer and comedian

her plays have been performed at Soho Theatre at the Roundhouse and she's been resident artist at Pleasant Theatre, Arts Depot and Theatre Deli. During its sellout run, Fran's multi-award-winning play Ad Libido received four stars in The Guardian

as well as being listed as one of their top shows to see at Edinburgh Fringe. She is a writer for Comedy Central Sketch Comedy Show Laughing at Sad and has she recently published her memoir, My Broken Vigina,

One Woman's Quest to Fix Her Sex Life and Yours. The book has been made into a comedy pilot by Channel 4. So the book is brilliant to start us off and it's really going to be

kind of the anchor for this discussion because her your sexual experience I think highlights what we're getting so wrong when it comes to sex education and the journey that you've personally been on I think is one that will be

familiar in parts to people maybe not the sex camp but hey we could all walk away converts which I read in book I was like hey I'm here for I'm signing up and then we'll obviously be able to bring in Ruby's fantastic adult sex knowledge to help steer us in a better direction when it comes to how we think and talk about sex.

By way of introduction to myself, I'm excited to introduce myself, I often forget to do that. My name is Emma Louise Boynton, and I am a journalist, a producer, a presenter, like, ultimate multi-hyphenate to the point where I kind of freeze up when people ask me what I do, so I'm like, a lot of stuff, not really sure how it was up into a box. but I if a year ago you'd said you'll be hosting events about sex and talking about fingering and fucking I would have said like what are you joking but I ended up going in sexual journey at the start of last year having not been able to orgasm and partner sex for I think like six or seven years and was talking to a friend about it and was like yeah I just you know I just I'm broken like I don't my body doesn't work but I don't really care I'm just not like a sexual person. like it doesn't really matter to me. And she was like, hold up. You can definitely fix this. You can see a sex therapist. It was news to me. So I started sex therapy. And it was the most transformative experience, I think, opened up such a wealth of self-exploration that so went beyond

just sex. I had a terrible eating disorder when I was younger, totally changed my relationship to my body and doing sex therapy was like the first step towards like rebuilding a better and healthy relationship to my body and have been able to orgasm in sex so it does actually also work at a kind of physiological perspective see a friend clapping that like oh yeah go you honey you can orgasm I'm like yeah I can um so so I found a lot of what you described in the book really resonated very personally so so I want to begin with talking about broken vaginas and this idea of feeling broken, which as I said, it was exactly how I, the first session I had, my sex

therapist, I said, look, I'm broken, like you're not going to fix me, I just, I don't work, and sexual partners had also said that to me, had basically been like, this is on you, like usually, I make girls come like that, I'm like, also honey, you really don't, you weren't

that good, but can you start by talking us through kind of your earlier experiences of sex, and what initially made you feel as though you were broken. Sure. So I think I started off by having very romantic, fixed ideas

of what sex would and should be like. I think I thought everything would click right into place, kind of like two bits of Lego going together. I then think it would be like three swift pumps. We'd look into each other's eyes. Fireworks would be going in the background. little cupids would descend and then we'd just spoon till dawn and so I had that I think that was the ideal I really thought it would just be pretty easy apart from one hurdle

I also knew because I'd been told very clearly that the first time would definitely be painful that there would just be an explosion of blood from my vagina and but once that was done with we'd get to some sweet sweet love making And so I had both of those ideas in my mind. First time, apocalypse. Second time, lovely, really nice time. But what no one told me was that sex could continue to be painful beyond that first time. And I really, really experienced that.

I found penetrative sex impossible. it was excruciatingly painful. And for a really long time, it just wasn't possible at all. And the more times I tried, the more times it was painful, the more times my brain went, I'm not sure I'm enjoying this. So the less likely it was that I would be in the mood for having sex, the less likely it was that my body would be telling me this is a pleasurable experience. and so from a i mean this is me at 16 years old at the first time i was trying to have penetrative sex

i'm 35 now and i've made a lot of progress but it's definitely not been a linear journey and i think sex is never linear right it isn't something that can be fixed um but those really early experiences made me feel so broken and so alone because No one was telling the truth about the sex they were having. No one was saying, actually, I find it painful as well, or I don't feel like I'm lubricated enough. Or actually, I don't want to have sex at all. Or maybe I want to have too much sex, and the person I'm with doesn't.

None of those conversations were being had. And so I felt physically broken, but also I felt very alone. with it as well. And that description of loneliness really jumped out to me in the book because I think, I've said this before, but I find the total juxtaposition between being so physically close

to someone during sex and so many worlds apart when it's not feeling good. Just the craziest experience. I always describe it as this kind of gulf of silence that lies between you. When in your head you're like, ow, I want to cry.

I just get me out of the situation, but there you are like, them in you or like around you and it's just it's such a lonely such a particularly lonely and it's and it's horrible and as you say I think as you describe that no one talked about it honestly I remember at school it was like the social currency from age 12 I went to all girls school and yeah and everyone would come back off the weekend with their new sex stories and I was just so not ready to have sex that age but would just kind of sit there quietly and I remember once it kind of there being a rumor about like why I hadn't had sex

yet. And I was like 13 or 14. And you just, that shame that so quickly becomes inculcated around sex. And Ruby, I know you've worked a lot of young people throughout your career. I imagine that you're listening to this, having heard these stories perhaps told quite frequently. Yes, these stories are not rare, sadly. I think that, like, everybody in this room can relate to what both of you have shared in some degree or other. And it's the vulnerability. that is one of the, like, I think for me, two of the big pillars that are missed out not only in sex education in a kind of institutionalised way, but also just in the way that we talk about this kind of stuff, is pleasure and vulnerability, because those two things are like, kind of the most important things that happen when I'm having sex now. And yet, all of my education, all of the messages around sex, like, never really had any time for them. They were very, like, scary. So, yeah, I, I've not taught in classrooms now for about three years, but I spent years going into schools

and teaching this kind of stuff. And I think underneath every question, there's always an underlying thing there, which is like, am I normal? Is it normal if I feel like this? Is it normal if I want to do this? I don't want to do this? And actually the weirdest thing

and the reason why I kind of transitioned into sex education for adults quite easily was that that's underlying all of our questions. as adults as well. And if anything, like, more, I think now, I'm feeling it so much because we're, I want to feel like strong and like I don't need to compare myself to other people. But secretly, I think all of us have in the back of my mind, like, shit, am I doing this in like, in like a weird way, but in a good way? Or like, am I, am I kind of treading my own path, but is that cool? Or am I doing something like totally abnormal? And yeah, all,

we're all having these frantic narratives in our mind and we it's so easy to forget that all of us are having those narratives and it's not just us 100% am i normal the number of times that has gone through my head and god you're in the most like intimate situation you're thinking that and franny you did a great phrase for that um or for kind of that situation as spectatoring can you just explain that for me yeah so um it's a little bit like you're watching yourself have sex and uh In your mind, your body is taking part in sex, but your mind is watching you. It's wondering, am I having a good time? What's happening there?

Are my pubs okay? Do I taste all right? What have I got for dinner? Your brain is completely somewhere else. And it's so, I mean, it happens in other situations outside of sex all the time. our brains flip to any kind of distraction that it can. But when you're having sex, that watching yourself just means you are completely or can be completely disconnected from what is actually going on.

And it also makes you feel doubly disconnected because you're just being so hyper aware of your body and how you look, taste, feel and not really allowing yourself the opportunity to feel pleasure. As soon as I'm in my head, I'm like, we're done here. You might as well just leave or like not because you're going to enjoy it and I'm not. Which actually on that point, you write in the book that as a result of this experiencing a lot of pain during sex, you ended up doing what I think so many of us do, and I certainly did for a very long time, and just focus on the other person's pleasure.

and you write about ending up kind of giving blowjob. So you have extracts from your younger diaries. And you talk about the first time you give a blowjob. And you're like, you know, you kind of play with it, almost like in your, in your diary back and forth between. Like, it was really good. I really liked it. But actually, I don't think I really did enjoy it that much. But he did enjoy it.

He enjoyed it a lot. So actually it was good. It was definitely good. I mean, I've been there like 10,000 times before. But you end up going into these routine, falling into these routines, don't you, as you described? where you're just there, you only focus on the other person's pleasure. And that was kind of a pattern that developed for you. Is that right?

Yeah, as long as they were having a good time, I was having a good time. And for a really long time, that felt like enough until it really wasn't suddenly enough. Yeah. The first diary entry of giving blow jobs, I'm just like, oh, it's so rewarding to give the person you love a good time. It is so rewarding. But on second thoughts, it is now all we do, and I'm beginning to get a sore neck. So, yeah, I ended up giving a lot of blow jobs as a get-around, as a way to avoid the things I was afraid of, felt like I couldn't do, felt like I was too broken for. And that also extended into pretending to pretending to enjoy sex.

So I learnt all the right noises. I could make all the ooze and the airs and like run my hands through my hair in all the sexiest ways. And I had like a really like ugly coming face, you know, like to show that it was really like intensely real. Like I really, I didn't want it to seem like I was just kind of absorbing what I'd seen in porn.

This was like, it's guttural. Like it's real, really intense. Yeah. But I think that was a way to bridge that gap for me. I was really afraid of the silence if I didn't make those noises. And I was even more afraid to communicate the things that might make that silence and space a little smaller. In fact, at that point, I don't think I'd made those connections yet. I would just make a lot of noise so that they would feel good about themselves.

so that they would feel like they were incredible, sensational lovers and that almost like their ego was something I had to look after. And a lot of these people were people I really truly deeply loved. And so it was very important to me that they had a good time. But I became completely passive. And it's something that, as I said, it really resonates. I think as soon as you vocalize, and I know you did vocalize with certain partners,

that you did sometimes struggle with pain during sex, you struggled to orgasm. I wrote a column for a while about not being able to orgasm getting sex therapy. And a lot of the people I slept with thereafter were like, right, I'm going to crack the code. I'm the one. And I've heard you describe it in interviews previously where they think they have a magic dick,

and they're going to be the ones that, like, to use your own expression, they're the key that just enter the lock and the rest of history. unsurprisingly, these magic dicks don't work, obviously. And that's not to blame the individuals so much as it's, you know, that's a complicated thing that needs to be, you know, that you do address and, you know, as we'll discuss shortly, through a variety of different ways. But it is astonishing that are men who do take it upon themselves

to be the ones that cure you of your sexual woes. I just also want to point out that it's so frustrating the lack of, I think, information that we have around these sorts of issues. In your book, you mentioned that 75% of women experience sexual discomfort at some point in their lives. I'm sure many people in this very room have experienced sexual discomfort.

And yet, there have been 5,000 publications on female sexual difficulties compared to 14,000 on male sexual difficulties. So I think we have a real kind of gendered divide there. Now, I know you approached numerous medical professionals as you sought to improve your experience of the pain. What was a general response to you when you went to the doctors about that?

I would say overall entirely negative. Yeah, it took a lot of courage to go to the doctors in the first place. At that point, it even took a lot of courage to say the word vagina and not worry that I was going to get the syllables in the wrong order when I got in there. and even once I was through the door I had a backup list of things that I could say in case I lost the courage to say

actually I'm finding sex painful I'm not finding it pleasurable at all By the way it's actually my knee Yeah I've got a terrible barouca I've got a bruise Just something ready something that felt Which yeah I don't know On prescription immediately

But I was told a lot of things over a really long period of time. I was told that I just had a very underused vagina and I should get out and use it more. Yeah. They also said it was very springy. I don't know what that means. I was told to put savelin on it.

Do not put savlon on your vaginas. I was told it would get better once I had babies without any inquiry as to whether or not I wanted to have babies. I was told to have a glass of wine and that would loosen me up a bit. I think that's a really common one. I was told it was all in my head. I was told to relax. There's nothing more relaxing than being told to relax.

Just every single thing made me feel like I had wasted precious doctor time. like it was a luxury problem because it wasn't like my legs were broken there was nothing to heal there wasn't a bone to fix it was me in this one very specific area of my life feeling like something wasn't working

something wasn't adding up but I just felt like it was a real luxury problem and not important at all and I mean that reinforces first of all I imagine the idea that you're broken that it's on your you, that this is something that you need to fix in yourself. And second of all, that

sex isn't something that is a core component to our lives, that it is this side thought. I think this is a topic that comes up again and again in sex talks, this idea that we often tend to relegate sex and sexual pleasure to this kind of afterthought. Like, you know, this thing

you don't, you know, it's in the background. And I think we wouldn't do that with healthy eating, with exercise, with anything else. And yet sex has become, as I say, relegated. and Ruby I know this is something that you have now dedicated your career to trying to rectify and just before we get on to how sex camp ended up being quite a wonderful intervention for you Fran Ruby I wonder if you could just tell us some of the most common myths and misconceptions that you've seen kind of come up in sex education so when you're speaking to both children

and adults I think even in France description there we're already hearing so many mis-exceptions being peddled by doctors, so by professionals who we tend to trust with these things. That's a big question. So I think the kind of broadest way of describing this is that if everyone could just throw in the bin the notion that there is like a should when it comes to sex and our bodies and relationships, that would be fucking great. If we could just like eradicate the kind of expectation

that we should all be living up to something because what that does, and we do that individually, we do that with our peers as well as like in professional environments and in medical environments and educational ones, we all have these narratives of how things are meant to be

and we are constantly judging ourselves against that. And it is fucking exhausting and it's not fun and it's, it can, cause really deeply serious problems in all of our lives and a great amount of unhappiness. So that, I think, is the biggest misconception. And we see that with, like, legislation and sex education. And we see that in the way that we, like, date and speak and connect to one another. We all have these images of how things are meant to go. And if instead we're able to focus on what's happening right now and how that's feeling for us, like, if that's painful

or if it's nice, because that should be a good indicator, if you should stop or not. not and yet like we all have experiences I think of just keeping on going because we feel like we ought to so that's all social pressure like all of our sexual lives are governed by social pressure and I feel like I've been working in sexual health and sex education for seven years now and it's got to the point where I just feel really frustrated by that and like within myself as well not like it's a it's a very collective shared frustration but all of us exist within like this whole riddle complicated mix of sexual shame and it's passed on from the generations before us

and we like to think that like it's 2022 and things are so progressive and things are changing loads and they really are but and yet like we we're like two, three generations from like the 20th century like the Victorian era which was by the way really filthy and I can happily chat more about that if you want me to. But like we have this idea that like Victorians were super, super prudes and they were, but there was also this like very bawdy underworld going on. But I can't figure out the ancestry in my mind, but like we'd all have what like great, great, great grandparents in the

Victorian era. Like all of that messaging is passed on and it doesn't just go away because we have like technology and, you know, gay marriage now. We're still living with all of that. So it takes a long time and I think lots of us there's a big misconception that like we all figure something out and then it's normalised and then we're just going to like

girl boss it and keep on going and actually like this stuff is nuanced and it takes time and I'm frustrated by that because I'm really impatient but like we all need to recognise that more I think it goes back to what you were saying before about this idea of like

am I normal we have these very reductive restrictive ideas of what good sex looks like and feels like and how we should be during sex which, as you say, gets reinforced through a myriad of ways societally. And I think that, like, a really key thing to come back to

is no matter how many times you've had sex, no matter how many people you have you've had sex with, every time you have sex a new sexual partner, it's a different person and it's a different body. So whatever the previous person liked, whatever felt good than the previous time you had sex, it might not be the same for this, with this new person.

It's not only a new person. Like, every time we have sex, even if it's like with ourselves, but also when it's with the same partner. Like, it's you on a different day in a different moment. Like, the sex that I have with a partner, I was about to say today, I've not had sex today. God damn it. I know.

Condom on the chair. Quick. Grands one when you leave. But, like, the sex that I might have today versus tomorrow is going to feel completely different. And the sex that I have today versus five years ago and five years in the future is going to look really different. like think about the sex you were having five years ago compared to now it's we we have this idea that like sex our sexual selves don't change that much throughout our lives when like all aspects of our lives are like changing all the time and i've heard you say before in an interview that we all have a lot to learn from queer sex as well to that can you tell us a little bit about that i mean what can't you learn from queer sex um i god that's such a juicy question um my the sex i have

and the way that I think about relationships and my body and giving and receiving pleasure has been completely transformed by queer sex. I came out in my early 20s and it was really, there was no coincidence that that was the moment in which I started to have pleasurable sex for the first time. And that doesn't mean it was only pleasurable sex with women,

although it was. But actually, like, just feeling more connected to myself because whoever I have sex with, it's queer sex, I'm queer. And I think, you know, anything that just shakes up our notion of this like normal should thing gets us thinking more creatively and more individually. So suddenly being presented with a different body part and then not being like a kind of fleshy, a wretch thing that I'm meant to stick in me, just allowed me to be so much more creative with the way that

I have sex and that influences my whole life. And then from that, what was I going to say then? I got, I was really, it really made me laugh thinking like the way that I just described a penis then. But it's not just the body parts as well. It's like, I think there's queer sex and then there's also queering sex. And regardless of your sexuality, everyone can queer sex when you are thinking outside of this like prescribed penetrative, like super heteronormative way of connecting with each other because I just don't think that serves anyone. Like, penetration's fine, but it's very low down on my list of, like, exciting sexual things to do. And I think we could all learn a lot if we just, like, said goodbye to penetration for a little bit

and saw what else came to the surface. What perfect segue to sex camp, which actively didn't want people to be having penetrative sex. So, Fran, you described before that you went to a number of medical professionals. none of whom were particularly helpful. I know you tried a range of different methods to try and address the fact that you were continually experiencing pain during sex, including a yoni egg that you had to end up birthing. Yeah, I went on the internet, didn't I?

I did a late-night Google. We've all been there. And I discovered yonni eggs, which are generally, I think sort of an egg often made of crystal I'm sure they can be made of other things and the idea is to insert

them into your vagina some people to sort of improve the muscles in their vagina but a lot of people because they think the crystals will internally heal and impart wisdom on their genitals

but I I mean, I was really desperate. I think this is the thing that I had really, I felt like I was scraping the bottom of the barrel of things that were available to me that could help. But I put the yoni egg inside me. You thread a tiny bit of floss specifically through one end so you can pull it out like a tampon.

But the floss came loose on mine, and the Yoni-Egg stayed inside me and traveled up. Now, it can't go anywhere. Think of how much wisdom was being parted about your body. My cervix, so wise. So wise. And I googled it again. I went back to Google.

It shouldn't be like this. There should be other places you can go to for this kind of thing. But, yeah, there was panicked forums. It wasn't just me that this had happened to. There were so many people. There are probably a lot of people right now with a yoni egg stuck inside them. And it said that it would find its own way out

in 10 to 12 days. 10 to 12 days? Yeah, I didn't have time. I didn't have time for that. That's also like laying an egg. I know. Which is, yeah. It's sort of what I had to do, though.

I had to basically, because I was like, I can't have this inside me for 10 to 12 days. It could just plunk out at any time and I'm not prepared. queuing with you wearing a dress and Sainsbury's and suddenly just an egg comes out. Shatters across the floor. You're like, hey guys, I'm wise. Just get a little broom.

Get the shard. Don't mind me, don't mind me. So you end up having to birth. I birthed it, yes. Okay. And I've since done quite a bit of research. And for some people, they really swear by them. But a lot of people actually say the material is porous.

And so putting any kind of porous material in your vagina is not good in terms of bacteria. So it can be quite dangerous. So I would not recommend using Yoni eggs without doing some thorough research. But yes, this is, that was where my head space was because I had turned 30 and I had this idea that your 30s are meant to be your sexual awakening, discovery and like very different to your 20s

and I was worried I was running out of time to have an incredible sexual experience. Another way society fucks us up. You're always running out of time, particularly if you're a woman. It's like, clock is ticking, you're running out of your best days. It's like, oh my gosh,

we are touchwood hopefully can live until we're like 90. And by the way, just before we go into sex camp, the highest rate of SDDs I read the other day are in those above 65 ruby i feel like you'll maybe it's it's the second highest okay i recently went it's like young people and then sexy old people and then really sexy old people so if you think you're just not going to have sex and you get older think again and i recently went to i also know we went somewhere in east devon which has the highest sddd rate amongst the above 65s of anywhere

Of above 80s of anywhere in the country. So you have, Fran, I'm telling you, from East Devon, the word on the street is, SDIs be rampant because people are. Also, let's be the generation of like sexy oxygenarians who are having safe sex and not spreading SDGs. Not exactly, I'm not saying the SDGs, just say, people be active. So their egg had not worked. The medical professionals had no real answer. for you. Let's go to sex camp. How did you find sex camp and what is sex camp for those of us who

are unacquainted with the joys to be found there? Yes. So I felt like I'd run out of options and I turned to the internet once more. This was a, so I affectionately call it sex camp, but it was the full title of it was a sex to spirit festival of a conscious sexuality and it was in the middle of the countryside and I yeah I just I had reached the end of my tether in terms of what I felt like I had control over and so I decided to really throw myself out of my comfort zone and packed a bag I packed a bag for four days with the idea that actually I could get there

and if it wasn't for me I could turn right back around I ended up staying for two weeks and it was that good yeah I had a great time I mean describe your feeling on that first day when you arrived and I know you got picked up on the way, which felt so wonderfully serendipitous.

A woman was driving to, let's call it sex camp, I like that, it's a great town, driving to sex camp and stopped by and said, hey, you're going, do you want to hop in the car? Great. So you hopped in the car and she was a veteran of sex camp, I believe. So describe for us that feeling when you arrived and you had your initiation ceremony? Sure. Yeah, I mean, I was, I had a first day of school feelings for sure. And I think I thought everyone there would be just shagging continuously.

I think I, I mean, I was there worrying about like, can I sit on this cushion or is it going to be damp? Where can I, you know, like, when are we going to get naked? Can I go and like do some coiffuring of my pubs? Are there too many? Are there not enough now? And so I'm very worried. I'm a fairly anxious human being

and I think actually that plats right into a lot of my challenges I've had with sex I think anxiety is a huge thing for me in terms of my body and feeling comfortable in my body and comfortable with another person so I was incredibly incredibly nervous with no real idea what to expect at all and one of the first things that came as a huge surprise to me was that there was no penetrative sex pretty much allowed at sex camp I mean I don't know how you would stop people really but the idea was about slowing down and connecting and touch and just taking penetration right off the table completely.

There was a caravan called the Cock Inn that if you really couldn't exist for a week or two weeks without penetration, you could go there but they made it as unpleasant as possible. Is it like the van of

shame? So if you were seen going to the corner, everyone was like and they were like doing consent workshops. It was like tiny, very thin mattresses on the floor and like a sheer bit of material like you could see through

so you could just be like I see you you're penetrating right now so they didn't make it somewhere that you would want to be and yeah I I guess I hadn't expected that I hadn't gone with big thoughts that I would be

doing a lot of penetration myself to be honest I thought I would just be learning and watching I bought a notebook I thought I'd be in the corner making notes what I would do, I would sit in the corner and I would just scroll those. So how would you describe your sex? Yeah, I really thought I was almost there in a slightly journalistic part of my brain.

And I think I didn't really settle into sex camp until I really embraced the fact that actually sex is so much more. than penetration and it's, but then also so much more than the other activities that often get umbrellaed under the warm-up for sex, you know, the things we do in the run-up for penetration. Even that term, I'm actually forgetting, what is it, what do we go? I was like, pre-play, pre-sex, pre-gaming, none of them.

But even that idea that it's like a kind of side dish, like it's not the main thing. Can you just describe for us then the first, time you or the first workshop that you did there which really kind of helped led you over the line in terms of feeling more comfortable and kind of changing your mindset in terms of how you were approaching sex camp and what was going on there I guess where you stepped away from a kind of journalistic headspace and was like oh actually yes so there are two that feel um sort of as important as each other. And one was a consent workshop. And now I had some consent education

at school, which I think means I'm probably quite lucky. I think it is something that is often left off. But my consent education was mostly like, look after your drink when you're out. Be careful what you wear. Don't get raped and don't get pregnant. Enjoy. Make sure you cover your drink. That was my consent education. And like some elements of that. like an awareness of your own sexual safety, of course, are really important. But this consent workshop went so far beyond that because it was about thinking about what I wanted. And I cried because I had actually never really thought about what I wanted at all.

I didn't know how to articulate it. I was scared of me saying something. and the other person going, oh, no, that's awful. I was scared of being judged for what I liked. But I also just, I hadn't put in any of the time or, I mean, I want to use the word work, but work makes it sound like it isn't fun. I just hadn't had the thought processes or the exploration to do that. And I was partnered with someone and they asked me for something.

and I also didn't know how to say no I didn't know how to say I don't want to do that and it was the first time that I realized just exactly how passive I had become that I had disappeared from my own sexual experience completely but I felt like it was a huge I mean it was quite obsessing at the time

but it was a huge game gift because suddenly I realized I had agency within my own sexual experience. And I didn't have to have the kind of sex the other person wanted to have just because that was the kind of sex they wanted to have. So the consent workshop was huge. And the second thing that came alongside that, I think even in the same day, after hours at sex camp, there was a sauna. And I love a sauna, but I love a sauna wrapped in a towel, you know, making sure that I am completely covered. This was a naked sauna. I'm sure if you didn't want to be naked, you could go in with a towel, but the feel of it very much was about being naked.

And do you not burn your buttocks? that's part of the fun no I think I think maybe sat on a little towel I think there was like you could bring a towel to sit on suddenly got worried

no health and safety I just want to know do I bring something for my under me you know I cannot remember if I burnt my bottom but

um but it was one of the first times where I had been naked in a space with other people and it not be sexual, where I could not be thinking, oh, are they going to fancy me? Do I look okay? How do my boobs look? Just all of those things. Am I sweating too much? And it's like all of the thoughts

going through the spectatoring of just sitting in a sauna having a lovely hot time. I'd never really had that. And I'd also, I guess I hadn't seen such a range of bodies as well, out of a sexual context. And it was so quick that I stopped thinking about the fact that I was naked. And I think that was really the beginning of feeling comfortable in my body. I absolutely love that. And I actually, the passage in which you discuss that growing comfortable of being naked is one of my favourite parts of the book and there's just one line which made me laugh

you write, what were any of us wearing clothes at all ever for? Clothes were a cloth prison for our beautiful bodies and I'm just imagining that realisation sat in sort of like, the hell? And that brings us on

in a wonderful way to the subject of nakedness which is what I wanted us to go on to this evening because that's actually the topic Ruby of your first episode on your podcast, which I highly recommend to everybody. It really is so brilliantly done and you're fantastic. You discuss nakedness, which is something that is really kind of part of your identity. You're very, you know, you talk about being very comfortable,

being naked and as much as Instagram will allow, you are a wonderful advocate. Yeah, boo Instagram, I know, like kind of free the nipple, but, you know, the first episode, you discuss kind of what led you to feeling very comfortable being naked. So there wasn't a sauna experience like Fran, but actually it was your dad who was really instrumental and helping you feel comfortable. Can you tell us a little bit about him? He does appear on the podcast, by the way,

and it's a wonderful, wonderful addition to that episode. My dad's in the podcast. There's my mum. So is my sister. There's some really nice, like, yeah, it's been really lovely doing. So I've spent a year making this podcast series. I spoke to, like, well over 50 people for eight.

episodes and just spent a year having really amazing like super vulnerable chats with people who I love. So that in itself has been such a joy. And then it's really nice to share it with other people now and be like, oh gosh, you've like, you're listening to this thing that's been in my head for ages. So nudity felt like the only place that we could really start the series with because all of the other episodes are about sex and relationships, basically. but our bodies, like it just always comes back to the body. And I'm in a place now where my body is my friend and actually like nudity itself is my friend.

One of my best mates and I, Rosie Pendle Baby, we ran a life drawing class together, which is all about like creative empowerment. And it is body positivity because it is like a sort of raw celebration of bodies in that kind of like childish, way so it's not body positivity in a kind of corporate dove commercial way like um and genuine like i i get pissed off in the winter because it is the cruelest month like season for nudists because and like i should so move to strananka and like just be naked all the time because i feel like your quote like

I feel the most me when I am nude. And I think actually the more clothes, not even the more clothes, when I have no clothes on, that's the moment when I feel the least self-conscious of my body, which I know feels so counterintuitive. But like, I think wearing,

like, wearing underwear and wearing bikinis can feel strange because you're like, why are there these tiny bits that are covered? Like, even you say just in front, I was wearing a towel to make sure I was all covered up but like you weren't all covered up it was just the bits that all of us feel like oh a bit nervous about they're the bits that are covered up but we're still seeing

other parts of ourselves and I think seeing and appreciating the body as like a whole thing has been really useful for me in terms of sex in terms of my relationship with myself in terms of so many things but yeah it all it was nice thinking about this actually weirdly the first time I ever did a podcast interview or like a public speaking gig was for a podcast that was talking about life modeling because I was a life model for years and I was so nervous and it was live radio and I think if I listen to it now it would be like

baby Ruby's warbly little nervous squeaky voice but the first question they asked me was like did you grow up in a naked family and I blanked and I said no and I left this studio after and my dad and then my sister and then my mum called me being like what are you on about we were a naked family

we're a naked family and I'd kind of not realize that I guess because it felt kind of normal to me but my dad's an artist and he paid like he took me to my first ever life during class when I was 15, 16

and it felt weird because I was 15 and awkward and nervous but like being in a surrounding being an environment where adults were just treating nudity with respect and like it was normal and like people were really grateful

for this model who was posing so that we could all draw them. That at itself was incredible. And I think I feel very lucky that I've had people in my life who have taught me to appreciate my body. And that doesn't always need to be fully nude. Like my dad, again, is another big way that we connect us through swimming. I've been cold water swimming before it was cool, guys. I was doing it as a kid.

But I've spent a lot of the time, a lot of my life, like plunging myself into like cold British sea and there is not another way to feel alive as that. Maybe having like a mind-blowing orgasm. Maybe there's a similar thing going on there. But I think it's so easy to get caught up with all the criticisms and like how horrible and like brutal being a teenager is and the fact that still is someone in my late 20s, I'm still kind of trying to make up for the fact that teenage Ruby had such a shit time. What this podcast has been really nice in doing is recognizing that amongst all of that pain and hardship, but I have had lots of really wonderful moments in people in my life who've helped me

appreciate myself and bodies in general. So yeah, I feel really, I feel deeply passionate about sharing that with other people. So that's why we do this life during class. So if you're curious about more of this, like come to a Body Love Sketch Club class, we do them virtually and we do them in person and they're really silly and really joyful and fun. I definitely will be signing up. No, seriously, because I, and just hearing you describe that, I find that so comforting and galvanising and the same with your experience, France. I think it was something that came up a lot for me in sex therapy as one of the main barriers to me enjoying sex was, as I said, I had this bad, even sort of when I was younger

and really until, like now until recently. And I have just directed so much hate towards my body. I have done everything within my power to try and destroy it and to just channeling, like, what a waste of energy. I also think patriarchal stitch up, because if you occupy women's minds with how their bodies look, then they're not thinking about other things. Sex talks now, so I'm breaking the patriarchal cycle.

But really have just channeled so much hatred. And speaking to my sex therapist, an issue about it, she was like, you need to be able to sit in your body and to feel and to see your body as a source of pleasure before you're going to be able to really experience full pleasure with somebody else and allow someone else to make you feel good. And genuinely I say this is probably the first year or maybe it was kind of last year whenever I started therapy

where and I'm still like every single day it's an act of like don't be so mean, mean girl to your body. But genuinely I'm looking at my body and being like, thank you. Thank you so much for being the body that carries me. I love running. I love exercising. And I'm so sorry for being your abuser for all these years, for being this horrible, horrible person to you. And I think that notion of spectatorship really comes into play. Because I've been so many times in sex, I've been like, shit, is that roll of fat? They've seen that. Do I look a bit gross? Am I like, I'm so flexible. I can get my legs

like almost behind my head. I mean, seriously, me in sex, I'm like, woo. And then I'm like, this is obviously an asset. I'm great. And I'm like, oh, shit, but does that make me look bad? all that sort of stuff. And actually, like, removing those thoughts from my mind has been, like, the most liberating, sexually exciting thing to discover. And I'm like, how is it that I got to 29? And it's only now that I'm getting to, like, love this body I exist in. But it is such a important component to not just like us up, yeah, but being able to enjoy your body, I think. So sign me up for the sex. I can definitely vouch for the classes. They are, I've done them live and online and I think

there's just such a good exercising compassion and when you look at other people's bodies like they are works of art and you're there with your charcoal or your pencil and you're really paying attention to someone's body and then having your body paid attention to in a your I think in the one I was in you could be as clothed or unclothed as you wanted

and so it's just how how being seen and having people pay your body attention and respect it just felt like a really wonderful gift so definitely go I think we're going to have a whole room full of people signing up to this life drawing class so Ruby better we'll put that in email afterwards and Fran having had this kind of revelation about your body and how you feel it and how you can enjoy being naked has that continued post sex camp? Has that been a real thing that's changed for you and you've like carried forward? I think so. I think one of the things that sort of happened is I accidentally became a sort of

sex educator. I'm a writer and a comedian that happened to talk about sex and I didn't really expect there to be so much, so many people interested in hearing about my vagina, but I was wrong, which is lovely but then I think one thing that happens and I have to be really compassionate with myself is that I talk a big talk and I say you should communicate

with your partners and you should really love your body and learn what you like and I say all of these big things and then you're back in a room with someone that you fancy and you want them to fancy you

And suddenly... Oh my God, the silence. You were like, oh, no. No, I've just put on Instagram that you should be doing this. Oh, oh. And you feel like a complete fraud. And I think that's what I mean. At the beginning when I said it isn't linear.

And that sex is always learning and curiosity and asking. Even when we think we know asking, ask again, keep asking, check, ask, with yourself, with other people. Because I want to say a big resounding yes. I want to say that I like, you know, I'm just always happily masturbating on the knoll of a hill. As the sun sets and I drink a margarita, that is what I want to tell you now. Sign me up. Yeah.

But it's not always the case. And I tried to celebrate the moments that are like that. and I tried to be compassionate in the moments when I'm like, oh, hello vagina, where are you? Get on board. Which are, they can be frequent. Like, they really can,

depending on what kind of day I've had. Hay fever medication. Like, all of these things, just every, yeah, exactly as Ruby said, every day, you are a new sexual partner. I think that's so wise. So I want to say, yeah, Yes, but it's up and down.

But I think it's also, you've described that every day and every new sexual experience with yourself or with somebody else is learning. But it's also unlearning. It's unlearning all the narratives that we grew up with which we've touched on today about the shoulds, the should sex. So you're having to unlearn and then relearn kind of a new way of being.

And similarly to you, I've written numerous articles past year on like the importance of communication. I bang on about the importance of communication all the time. And then I find myself having sex and I'm like, feels good, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%, 100% feels great. And I'm like, no, it doesn't. And actually I really need to say something. But it's so hard.

And it's like having to, you have to, as you say, continually kind of check yourself. And I think there's, it's like constant, like, forcing yourself to not feel abnormal. And to also be like, I am worth this. Because I think there's like a worthiness a bit that I, really have personally struggled with and also not being like embarrassed about saying like what you want and what you and wanting to explore a bit and I think rather than seeing sex as something that you're following some kind of manual seeing it as an opportunity to like have fun and I recently was sleeping with someone who would constantly refer to sex as like playing it's like but it's like

you always seem to be like laughing when you're when you have sex and it's like yeah because it's fun. Are you having sex with me? It's a big reveal So actually we said it was Primary school, however But I love that idea. I had like I had a year

And I don't know why it happened so much in this year where like several people sort of tried to shame me Like being like Why do you laugh when you're having sex? And I was like, because I'm having a nice time Is that not allowed? And I'm not like, ha ha ha

It's not like a Father Christmas thing But yeah I'm not It's not thigh, well some of it's thigh slappingly good but like just relishing in it because all of the things we're talking about today like there's a cheekiness to them and that's really fun like I want to be cheeky that sounds really lovely

and actually like just to go off of what you were saying when was it? It was at some point last year I was having a chat with three good mates who were also sex educators and all of one person like tentatively started saying this and then all of us the flood gates opened all of us were like oh my god I've not had sex for months

I have no desire to have sex and I'm fine with that but like should we all be doing our jobs anymore is there a point at which we like do you there's the pressure when you are someone who talks about sex and that could be in your career or that could be you being like the chatty lively person in your friendship group who's like always up for this

the moments when you're not feeling it there can be like an added layer of shame there of like oh no I want to be that person and I'm not being that person right now now and the last year or so I've I've really tried as much as possible to be fine the moments when I'm just like flopping around and being a bit crap because like that's also okay we don't need to be like a star humans all the time I am fine if I'm like a solid B most of the time in my life that is good and I need like I need to stop convincing myself that I have to be an A star person

in sex does that make sense it makes that perfect sense And just going off of that, you recently had a really interesting conversation with Dr. Kate Moyle, who is a sex therapist who clap for Kate Moyle. Yeah, she is fabulous. She really is absolutely wonderful. Kate needs to come on one of these. Oh, she is. She was supposed to be here today and she unfortunately couldn't come.

But no, she is absolutely wonderful. But in this conversation, you talk about how the kind of conversations around sex are evolving and changing. Much like kind of even like this conversation today really is indicative of fact that we, are progressing in how we talk about sex, the fact that we can address it being fun and silly and playful and not this thing where you have to be this A-star human, porn star extraordinaire. But one thing I found, like, jumped out in me in that conversation,

was who has been influential to you in terms of shaping how you think and approach sex. And I was particularly interested that is actually a podcast with two Christian mothers who have been quite influential. because I think you were saying that you often would think it's very important, which I agree with, to look at sources and look to voices who are unlike your own and who think about sex very differently.

Can you tell us a little bit about what you've learnt from the Christian mothers? This makes me so happy because I actually recorded that conversation ages ago and I could completely forgotten what I said, I couldn't tell you a thing I said in that interview, but I'm so glad you've reminded me of this because I have not listened to sex life.

of Christian wives for like a year and it is amazing. I highly recommend it. It's like four American very Christian women in their kind of 40s and 50s and they're having it's like the sort of cheeky version of like sex in the city but like the reboot when they're older but they're all really Christian and so they're sitting around being like sex toys can we use them as a marital aid what does the Bible say and they have they have like an hour long conversation about that And it is so fascinating. And, like, I was raised in a fairly secular environment. I can't, like, I don't know much about Bible stuff, or, like, from any faith, really.

It's really fascinating to see how these conversations work. And it's so easy to presume and be quite, almost quite dismissive of people who are not, I feel like lots of us over the last five years or so have kind of end, come into this category of sex positive. And, like, I think everyone in this room is, given that we're all at this talk. and that's amazing. Woo, clap for you for being here. Yay, well done for being here. But also, a word of like warning,

because I've done this loads, it's really easy for that to turn into a bit of smugness of like, well, I'm sex positive actually. So you over there with your stupid little ideologies, whatever, you don't know anything. And actually, like, sex wives of Christian lives, they do. And they're doing this in their own way.

And I love learning about how we all interact with this in such different ways. The podcast episode next week is about sex education, which is like obviously one of my like key OG passions. And on it, I chatted to one of my old colleague Zara, who is such a beautiful person because she really, really changed my mind about the way that sex ed and faith intersect while we were working together. Because I went into it. Do you remember years ago when there were like the protest in Birmingham around like a primary school? I am not getting many. One nod. Great. You'll, like, there were protests around, like, they're sort of being same-sex-ish education in primary schools. And initially, my thought was like, fuck this, young people deserve education. That's really important. The parents are outrageous. Like, faith shouldn't come into sex education or, like, education of any kind. And she just totally changed that perspective for me. And I'm so grateful for that. And moments like that make me feel really.

alive because it's good to have your values but you need to hold them loosely enough that they can be challenged. So I'm always, I've always got a little spidey sense open for like, oh, can someone like counter what I'm saying? Because I'd actually really like to have that chat rather than just being in a space where everyone's like, yes, yes, yes, well done. We all know this. That's excellent. I want some newness. Totally. I'm so anti-dogmatism. I think it just crushes any meaningful discussion and debate. And I think much like we must constantly be challenging our what we are narratives around sex in the bedroom also that's just important outside of it one final point before we wrap up which is regarding dating apps and they're mainly because they've been kind of

front of my mind of late um is that are you laughing because you just yeah i used every dating out during lockdown and honestly have managed to find the worst man in the world um i have had sex with all of London's fuck boys and soft boys so that you don't have to I put red dots on their faces so that you can stay away but I read a quite controversial piece actually and Ruby I'll probably send it to you after this I'd love to know your thoughts on it but as in and heard about the changing nature of the sexual landscape and how internet dating and sites like only fans have eradicated intimacy they have killed intimacy it said and the start of the article suggests that the growing conversation around and the

onus on kind of verbal consent comes at a price. As I said, the article's kind of main argument was that we're really losing intimacy, particularly in we're seeing this in younger generations. Can we find real intimacy online? Yes. Yes, we can. No one panic. We can do it. Yeah, I'm always really interested by opinion pieces like that because they come about every couple of years. There's something new, like everyone had a fucking crisis about Tinder being like well this is it like millennials are just never going to find love they're

never going to connect with anyone ever again and no one's having sex anymore it's done yeah and I think like dating apps and porn I kind of think of in a similar way like the way that we've we've like watched people having sex or like thought about other people having sex and we've connected with other people to have sex and like romance for as long as humans have been alive basically for like human civilization I guess what's changed is the technology and there are really valid concerns about how that technology can shape us, but it's really easy to fully sensationalize it. Years ago, it was a thing of, like, oh, my God, in like five generations,

we won't have thumbs that are as opposable because we're all using our iPhones. And, like, evolution takes much longer than that. Like, we don't need to worry about that right now. So in the same way, I think that dating apps can make you significantly more jaded. you can spend more time. The more time you spend on dating apps, the more bullying it can feel. The more, like, gamifying dating and connections

feels a bit weird to me sometimes. The more time I'm spending on my phone in any way can just feel, like, can feel draining, and I don't get much of my energy from that. But if you use dating apps as a tool to connect with people in a different way, and that can be offline, but also it could be, like, online,

but in a kind of different way, there's loads of scope for intimacy. Like, I have partners who I don't see very often, but I am, like, the biggest fan of voice nights on WhatsApp ever. Because just hearing someone's voice versus, like, versus texting them is such a, it's such a big difference. And I kind of like voice notes more than a phone call nowadays because you kind of, it's like a little platform. You're not having to worry about what someone else is saying. You can also give a little flavor of your day. Like, I like sending a voice note.

And I do this if I'm, I mean, I don't want to come off too strong too quickly, but like I'm about to go on a date with someone soon and we've just like evolved to like the quick voice note. So instead of texting, we'll send like a sort of a little like tight two minute voice note. I'm not about to start sending like 10 minutes soliloquies to this person. But I think there's some real intimacy there. And it's about like recognizing the time you're going, you're spending online. But then once you're connecting with someone in a different way that's separate from the apps, kind of actually making an effort to connect

rather than continuing that vibe that a certain app has like dictated. I did fall down a voice note hole. I love to chat. And in the deep, dark depths of lockdown, five minute voice notes with a guy turned into 10 minutes, which turned into an hour.

And suddenly we were sending an hour-long voice note. I mean, here my way, me back. I mean, and I could have, I know, it was shocking. It didn't go well. It's very hard to translate that. It was too much investment in the beginning. That's kind of what I, that's the whole I fell down into. You think you learn after.

No, yeah, I did like three times. But it is amazing. I was basically doing a weekly podcast to my, and I said we were in kind of our Catholic confessional. But no, and I agree. And I think that there is always kind of history that does, as you say, erupt. And I think with any kind of technology,

it's how you use it as opposed to how, It's not in itself a force that is kind of happening upon us. It is how we use it. A.K. Emma, like, don't send someone an hour long voice note. And we never even went on a date, which is shocking. I know. I mean that. The thing is, yeah, there were other instances when a date did happen, and that was even worse.

So actually, you know, well, I was quite happy to stage my voice notes. And just final question. Before we wrap up then, Fran, going back to you and kind of wrapping up your story around sex camp and the evolution that it kind of led you to have around your relationship to sex and how experienced it. What have been kind of your, what were your kind of main takeaways? How did it ultimately change your approach to sex and how you navigate your body as a sexual body? I think firstly, I just really slowed the fuck down. I really thought and felt into Do I want to have sex right now?

So I feel like this is a bit mean dropping this thing in really quickly. But as we're wrapping up, one of the things that happened at sex camp was I had my vagina worshipped. It does feel like an unfair thing to drop in right at the end. I'm so glad you brought this up. We've got time. I mean, we all want to hear this, right? Yeah, okay, great.

Yeah. Go in. Give us the details. So at the end of a week, the first week of me being there, I realized that I wanted to stay longer, and that's when I decided to stay for a second week. And I mean, I went full-sex camp. I was wearing my bed sheets as a robe.

I had a spiritual haircut. Like, I really... What is a spiritual haircut? They all sang to me as they cut my hair. Yeah, it's sexy. But at the end of the week, it was something... It was called Yoni Worship.

And another thing is that I fell in love while I was there. I fell in love only for the time that I was there. Oxatocin is a very powerful reaction in the body. But I fell in love with this man. And he was my partner for the vagina worship ceremony, whereby someone gazed at my vulva and I mean it felt completely normal while I was there for this to be happening and as I tell it now I'm always like this is it is out there but something about it just being seen and not feeling ashamed I was you know when I was

probably up until my mid-20s the thought if someone was going down on me I would want the lights off probably or hope that it was dark enough under the duvet for them not to see. The thought of them being face to face with it I'd be worrying about whether there was like enough air for them down there

how long had they been down there I should probably orgasm soon because they've been down there for a really long time and I'm worried about their neck so like I had a lot of anxiety around people looking at my vulva and so something about it just being looked at within the context of sex camp was really powerful but at one point they did ask us to listen to our yonies and really what are they saying to you and I was like this is abs. This is bullshit. It's not going to say anything. My vagina doesn't talk. It's broken. And then it did say something. What did it say? Oh, my vagina said. It said nothing more unless it's special, which in the moment I was like, oh my God, my vagina's just sent feminism back 100.

years, but I, and I don't really believe, I want to say now, for everyone, I don't really believe that my vagina spoke to me, like in a literal way. Imagine a little whisper, through the lips. But I think actually, probably what it was is just actually tuning in to what my body wanted and needed, and I'd been throwing myself so. hard against this fixing sex, fix myself, fix my body, fix sex by having lots of sex. I had so much sex trying to fix sex. And it was actually only when I stopped having sex that I had the space to work out anything at all. And so I learned that special didn't have to mean love, special

didn't have to mean a serious committed relationship, which I think teenage me thought that's what special sex was. I think I learned that special just meant that I really wanted to have sex and I felt safe with that person and there was someone that I wanted to have sex with and that I could say no or stop or how about we try it like this at any time, any time at all and it wouldn't matter and I know that it's like so basic so so basic but I wasn't doing that so much so to expand on your question and tell you about my vagina worship I those were my new set of standards that I was only going to have sex when I really wanted to and only with people I really wanted to have sex with and they were going to be non-negotiables.

Oh, yeah, round of applause. Thank you. I really love that, and particularly that notion of feeling safe, and I think that for me has come up as a really important thing, which it sounds bonkers because it should be so obvious, but I realise looking back how many times I've had sex when I felt pressured, when I felt like the shoulds, all that sort of stuff, and it ultimately felt very unsafe in that person's company.

and now feeling safe and feeling at ease, like spiritually and bodily with that person is the new standard. So I totally agree on that. Thank you so much, both of you, for sharing so openly and honestly. I mean, I could honestly chat to you for the rest of the evening. I have a million and one more questions, but huge round of applause both of you. Thank you so much for listening to today's live podcast recording

of Sex Talks, hosted by me, Emma Louise Boynton. Don't forget to head to the ticket link in the show notes for details regarding the next live event at the London Edition. And please rate, review and subscribe to this show so you can help others to find sex talks and hopefully engender more open, honest and vulnerable conversations around sex. See you next time.