Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - *LIVE* What can we all learn from polyamory?

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

*This episode is a live recording of a previous Sex Talks event.* The 5th installment of Sex Talks focused on challenging the cultural script around sex and relationships (you’ve got to find ���the one’; you need an ‘other half’ to be fulfilled; sex is all about that P in V… you get the picture) and exploring the myriad factors that shape sexuality, including shitty sex ed and reductive gender norms. We delved into how we can then challenge these ideas, with a particular focus on polyamory and what we might all be able to learn from those who take an ethically non-monogamous approach to relationships. My dreamy panel included the brilliant, Bronwyn Griffiths @minkaguides (aka 'Fanny Minka' of @sink_the_pink) - a queer polyamorous writer and performer. Bronwyn's blog, Minka Guides, is all about celebrating life beyond the norm, which is exactly what we did during this Sex Talks. I was also joined be the equally fabulous @almazohene - sex educator and activist, award-winning writer and soon-to-be author who is currently doing some fascinating research on all that’s shaped people’s approach to sex. And last but not least, Nadine Noor Ahmad, aka international DJ (who typically goes by the name Nadine Artois) and co-founder of Pxssy Palace, the club night and collective that prioritizes womxn and queer/intersex/trans people of color.

Hello and welcome to the live podcast recording of sex talks. New event series held at the London edition, focused on engendering more frank, open and vulnerable discussions around sex. I'm your host, Emma Louise Boynton, co-founder of the Female Focus Production Agency Her Hustle. And throughout this series, I'll be exploring a range of topics surrounding sex, desire and the female pleasure taboo. I wanted to start this series because while sex is everywhere, sex cells remember, What we're most often confronted with is a heavily sanitise, and often idealised version of sex. Depictions which only really serve to reinforce reductive stereotypes around the kind of sex we should be having, how we ought to feel about sex, what a sexy body is meant to look like.

So while sex may be everywhere, it's still a topic shrouded in social taboo and the source of so much shame for so many. After doing sex therapy myself for a year, I realised how the issues that show up in the context of sex, like me, not being able to orgasm, for example, are often reflective of so many broader personal as well as social and political issues. It fast became an area I really wanted to explore, and thus, sex talks was born. If you want to join me at the next live sex talks event, headen over to the event bright link in the show notes, or else to my Instagram page where I post all the juicy event details. Okay, I hope you enjoyed today's show. Ronwin Griffiths, I've said your name Griffiths, tripped over it a couple times during our Instagram live, so I was like,

Say it right this time. So, is a queer, polyamorous writer and performer in her 40s. Some might know her as Fanny Minka from Sink the Pink. Looking utterly fabulous. Her blog Minka guides, which she started in 2015, was initially a place where Bronwyn could document all the places she visited,

with a big emphasis on inclusivity. During pandemic, it blossomed as Bronwyn began writing about dating, relationships, queerness, aging, health and more. It's become a place. dedicated to celebrating life beyond the norm, and it is a thoroughly good read. Oh, that's very sweet. I mean it genuinely. I've got the tabs on my laptop are horrendous. They give people serious anxiety, and right now I have minker guides on loads of them. But it really is

brilliant. Anyone who hasn't been the blog definitely have a look there afterwards. She's also the co-founder of E&MFAM London, a community building event for non-monogamous folks. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Hello everyone. A nice move every speaker. I love it. Such a supportive crowd. It's so fath, isn't it? I'm also joined by the brilliant award-winning, multi-disciplinary, writer and creative working across sexuality education, journalism and branding, Alma Zahen. Did I say your last name correctly because I didn't ask you for? Ohini. Ohini, I didn't. I'm really sorry. I should have asked you beforehand. It's all right. Ahini. Thank you for correcting me.

A lover and writer of erotic fiction. Amher's founded Kaylee Daniels' Dated in 2018, a web platform combining sexy, saucy stories with informative sexual health features. And they really are sexy. I was listening to a podcast earlier, Come Curious, in which you read some of your erotic fiction. I was in the gym.

It's really raunchy, and I do it that way deliberately. The mango sorbet. I was like, doing my squats. Like, oh, my God, she went now. She's right, I've kind of lost my thread in this. Oh, she's also part of the decolonising contraception collective, a community interest group working within sexual and reproductive health, while also helping to run sex education workshops in school.

Emma is also writing about sex and sexuality at the moment for a new book, which will definitely be delving into in great lengths today. It's utterly fascinating your research. It's really fun, but it's giving you. me a nervous breakdown. I can totally emphasise writing one article and I'm like a nervous wreck by the end of it. So the writing

a book, I'm kind of, I really admire you for that. But the research is fascinating. Yes, the research is really fascinating. Honestly, wait until you hear the sex and sexuality survey, which we'll go into later, it's great. And last but not least, the brilliant Nadine Oh, yes, my call. Come on, Billy. Where's you

whewing at? Sorry, too excited. Last but not least, the brilliant Nadine Noor Ahmed, who some of you might recognise as an international DJ Nadine Artois. A Pakistani, queer, trans, working class, multidisciplinary, creative, curator and cultural consultant based in London. That I got all those seas is, I'm quite pleased. In 2015, they founded Pussy Palace, a night centering and prioritising. in queer women and non-binary and trans, black and people of colour, addressing the frustrating lack of spaces and care within nightlife.

I know a lot of you are very familiar with Pussy Palace, so I'm sure I'm very excited to hear what they have to say. It fast grew into one of the biggest nightclubs in the UK and curated events to the likes of Glastonbury, boiler room, love box, the VNA and many more. After taking what I believe is a short hiatus during the pandemic, Pussy Palace has reopened its doors and actually just hosted what looked like a pretty magical night

appropriately themed fairy core. I was stalking the Insta earlier. I wish I'd been there. It looked fabulous. Woo! I love this. Let's keep up the wooing all night long. So to kick us off,

I like to have kind of one question that everyone on my panel can answer just to kind of get us into the zone for thinking about the evening's discussion. So I'd really love to know from all of you. What for you is the most unhelpful takeaway or component from the presiding cultural script around sex and relationships? Bronwyn, do you want to start stuff? Sure. Hi.

For me, I mean, this is an ongoing thing, but yeah, definitely like the way that people just assume that a non-monogamous relationship is not serious and is just, casual and it doesn't have the depth or the value or the meaning that a monogamous relationship has. And so that's something I kind of come up against quite a lot. Emma, what about you? So I think it's really useful to think about sex and non-monogamy in terms of the economic situation and capitalism and that the nuclear family and the modern family is about. consolidating wealth and power

and about priming us to be workers in the workforce so it's useful to have that in your mind when you think about why marriages are presided over other kind of relationships that's fascinating nice so great Dean what about you? I mean you really just took the words out my mouth but yeah just kind of how capitalism kind of finds our ways

into our bedrooms, you know, with hyper individualism and then, like, not thinking collectively, which, like, polyamory forced you to do, you know, like you care for your partner's partner and your partner's partner like, and we're thinking collectively about how we all care about each other, so that's it, and then definitely in nuclear family, and just this, like, sexual deviance, like,

that comes with thinking of, like, polyamorous relationships, and, yeah, that's it. Totally, and I think, I was reflecting on this early, And I thought, what do I think is one of the most damaging things? And for me, it is that this narrative that I think all of us, or many of us, I don't want to speak for everyone, grew up with, that as a woman and man will one day come and save you and you're kind of waiting for that fairy tale ending.

And regardless of your sexuality, what you want, anything, regardless of anything, kind of flattening you, a man will one day come and save you. And I think in my late 20s now, I'm like looking around, being like, I've always had this narrative like eating at the back of my head. And I look around and I have the most incredible, friends and female friends. I'm like, they're my soulmates. And I wish I could have realized a bit earlier that, yeah, they were standing right in front of me. So that would

be mine. Amazing. So to get us started, well, we've actually got started now, we're actually in the zone, but to step one step further into this sexual zone, I want to begin with Amy Gaheins. I'm so bad with pronounced names, but Amy Gaheim, I think it's right, concept of the relationship escalator, as I think it really perfectly captures how limited is the cultural script around the types of relationships typically deemed valid and worth striving for in our society. Now, Bronwyn, you mentioned this concept when we did a little Insta Live the other day. I've become a SSILEV now. Would you might explain to everyone what this relationship escalator is? Sure. So it is one of those things where

We don't really talk about it that much because it's so embedded in our society that we just assume that a relationship is going to be a certain way. It's going to look a certain way. And the reason that it's called an escalator rather than a set of stairs, for example, is that you, when you embark on a relationship, you get on this escalator and it takes you in one direction and you just go through these kind of stages without even thinking about it because we've been told that's what a relationship looks like. So we start with, you know, you start dating someone and then you should be exclusive with them and then maybe you'll move in with them and then you'll probably get married, have a baby, buy a house. So these are all of the stages that we just assume, you know, that someone else will want to go on those stages as well if they want to have a relationship. And then the problem becomes if you don't necessarily want one or all of those things that you are then having to be a little. like, hey, but you just assume that that's where I want to be going along that escalator. And I'm over here being like, oh, I really don't want to get on that escalator at all,

you know, so that is where that concept comes from. And I think, kind of adding to that, it also puts this pressure, these milestones that we're supposed to be measuring the success of our life against. So when you're not meeting them, you feel like you're somehow failing. And I turn 30 in a few months. And I'm really like, I'm doing a bit of a review of one's life as you do. Like, where are you at? And I haven't ticked tons of the milestones that when I was growing up, I was like,

oh, by 26, I'll be engaged, by 27 of this, then I'll have a house. I'm like, serious, I've better got any savings. Like, don't single, everything. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I think this, I have really had to, like, dig into that kind of inherent feeling of failure that's by missing those milestones, I've fucked up in some way. And so I think the heaviness, they're just way so heavy on so many of us. Didn't you just say?

You were like, yes. Just hard to relate, you know. Just wanted a bit of affirmation on that. I just wanted another yes. Yeah, great. That's it. And so there are many ways that we can challenge this normative structure around relationships. Many different ways to love and to receive love and to foster meaningful relationships.

One such alternative that has of late been growing a popularity is polyamory. Shock horror. If anyone looked at the fly, you would know. There was actually a really interesting field did some research recently that showed there's been a huge surge of interest in couples opening up their relationships and exploring non-monogamy. So much so the keyword searches for ethical non-monogamy and polyamory have seen an almost 400% increase among women. while with men, they have increased by 500%. There's obviously kind of growing interest in these alternative ways of being a relationship.

So, and also just to clarify whether, the Google search definition, when we're thinking about polyamory, is engaging in multiple romantic and typically sexual relationships with the consent of all the people involved. Now, obviously, there are a multiplicity of ways of being polyamorous,

of which we'll delve into a couple today. And to do that, I wanted to begin with the personal journeys of Bronwynne and Dean, you both identify as being polyamorous. And we had a quick chat for the event about your experience of becoming polyamorous. And I wanted if you'd be happy to kind of start us off by sharing that personal journey as a way of helping us think to understand how many kind of different approaches there are to polyamorous. So, Dean, maybe you could sell us off. Yeah, so I was a serial cheater and I never felt guilty about it. And mic drop.

She out. You know, I felt, of course, like, upset and guilt that I'd harmed my, upset my partner and that I'd betrayed their trust and all that. But I never felt guilty about what I was doing. And I was just like, why does this keep happening to me? Like, why did I want to end up in these situations? And then, yeah, I did a lot of, like, introspective work. And a friend, I'd heard, like, you know, I've been queer for

ever and like you know in queer circles there's lots of open relationships polyarmie and stuff like that but I guess like it did at the time feel very like white to me like and I had a lot of shame attached to sex at that time so I had to do a lot of introspective work and then slowly with a lot of practice a lot of trial and error I was like okay cool I'll have a I had a partner at the time and we decided together like oh let's open it up and that openness turned into polyamory and turned into breaking a lot of boundaries to figure out what my boundaries were like um and and then now um and then i went through a period of celibacy which i'm just coming out of like so exciting times but and now i'm like now doing like solo polyamory which is um really just me dating myself and not really interested in

ever having a primary partner um and uh yeah that it's no matter who comes into my life whether there um and any level of importance to me will I've always be dating myself first and only. And can you just define we talked about this briefly before the difference between being solo polyamorous and being single?

What did we say again? Oh my God, I can't remember because I said it off the cuff. I was like that's a really interesting question. The difference between solo, I guess single you know, if you talked about a limbo. Yeah, like solo polyamory feels like intentional like this is what I want to do. This is how I live my life. Single feels like your way.

waiting for something. You're in the waiting room to find a partner to end up going on that escalator, right? That's what it feels like, you know, it's like it's not single. And really there has to be, when you talk about being single, there's always like a backup to it. For not everyone, you know, people are single and happy, but they kind of have to feel like you need to say single and happy, you know, because it's like, hey, I'm happy here, which is completely like fine. But for me, like, yeah, I just felt like waiting for something. Whereas like, I'm saying that I'm dating. I don't really say solo polyarmory but it is what it is but I say like I'm dating myself and anyone that comes in my life like it's me first. That's it. And I really love the way

you define that. Love the limbo. Because I think I definitely feel as I've been doing my review of the last decade of this sense of being dating in a way that I'm kind of like waiting to do all the good things when I'm in a partnership with somebody. So I'm like, okay, I can do those fun things. I can have that romantic holiday. I can do those things when I'm in a relationship. And I have to stand back and be like, hang on a second, what the hell are you waiting for? And like, and it's small things. I took myself my first solo, like romantic holiday with me to Rome. It was the best holiday I've ever been on. I was romanced to death. I went to all the nice restaurants, learnt how to make pasta, was just in this heaven. And I think it was leaning

into that being that you can do this on your own. But I think it is, as you just point out that, that intentionality and I think it's a really kind of powerful yeah it's kind of frame what to be in I just got really fed up of only tidying up my house when I was someone was coming over to shag me you know like like I was like why am I not tidying my house for me why do I live in rubbish when no one's going to be up I do the same it's like the incentive I do need the incentive to tidy this actually but for anyone coming over and Brumman what about you because you did try monogamy or not try sorry that's not wasn't, but you gave it a really great shot. And you're married twice. I think you were going to

buy a house with one of your partners. So can you talk us through your journey from, you know, quite committed long-term relations to being polyamorous now? So, so yeah, so I'll take you back to how I originally heard about non-monogamy. So I am queer and I was at a queer students conference back in the early Nordies. And there was a session at this conference on open relationships and I was just like oh that sounds interesting might go along and it was me and a whole bunch of gay men doing don't ask don't tell relationships and I was just like okay cool like tell me more about how this all works but I was just kind of sitting there the whole time through this session and I still remember it really clearly now just being like yeah like you know

I was in my very early 20s I hadn't really had relationships yet but I was like this is kind of sounding like, you know, what I think sounds right. Yeah, cool. So I basically took it from there with every relationship I started. I'd be like in the first month or so and I'd be like, hey, so you're great. This is great. How do you feel about an open relationship? And the other person, because it was the first month and you're still trying to be really cool at that point, was like, yeah, sure, we can totally do that. And then by month three, they'd be like, I'm in love with you and I want to be exclusive. And I was just left kind of each time just being like, okay, cool.

Well, I don't really have anything that I can point at and say, this is what an open relationship looks like. This is what I want. This is an example of it. This is how it's structured. Anything like that had no idea. I just had this kind of term and vague idea that it involved having relationships with one person, but maybe sleeping with other people.

And that was it. And so I'd always be like, okay, well, I suppose we're just monogical. then because that's just how relationships happen, right? And so I did this again and again and again over the course of about 20 years. And as you said, I lived with three partners over those 20 years. I got married twice. I nearly bought a house with one of them. So I really got on that escalator and kept like trying to get up there. But the whole time I was spending it being like, I'm doing this because this is what I've been told relationships are and what they're meant to look like. But I always had this feeling inside of me being like, yeah, but I feel like there's, it's not exactly the right

fit for me, but I just assumed that I just wasn't meant to fit in with how that was meant to look, you know, until I ended up in a 10-year relationship, which was my second marriage, just to clarify, and the whole time I was just kind of like slowly beginning to understand more and more about maybe prioritizing my own needs and what I wanted and then started to hear more and more rumblings, like, about like, oh, non-monogamy, polyamory. And I kept being like, oh, maybe that is what I want. And I had my very lovely partner, they were very open to, like, talking about it, like, but they were very monogamous. And I was the whole time, again, still being like, I don't have something concrete that I can point to. And so we kept talking about

it and then after about eight years together we eventually opened up our relationship and that lasted about two years and then I came out of that at the end of that relationship just being like right I know now but I am polyamorous and there's no more negotiating around that and I'm no more trying to like squeeze myself into other boxes that don't fit me this is what I'm meant to be doing so that was about three years ago so yeah that's my journey amazing and I mean I was just struck as you said that when you first started dating people after about kind of three months they were like hang I just want to be with you

I just get like dumped so I'm like you're doing something right I'm sorry there was a lot of crappy stories in there as well that's an overview I'm like no one's begging me everyone's like listen I'm like oh god you know what to commit an issues whatever

I'm actually going to jump ahead a little bit we can just go past my crappy dating because as you mentioned that I was just struck when you You said at the beginning, the communication element is such an important component. And this is why I've kind of, as I've been doing research, looking into polyamory and listing stuff that you've said in podcasts and you've written, communication, communication, communication comes up again and again. And I think we could all benefit from communicating a bit better.

And you're nodding, and that's great, because I'm about to turn to you. Because you just wrote a brilliant piece in Badoo, I believe it was. about dating, really, and communication. And it was about kind of the culture of dating. You said, dating culture can make single people feel bad for having high hopes about finding a partner who could be great. Toxic dating culture can make you edit yourself, taking away your quicker ask, your quirkier, not quicker.

Quicker, it would be fun. Quirkier aspects and replacing them with a more palatable version to get the relationship to the next stage. I think this is what I haven't mastered. So you also touch on attachment styles and how they impact the way we date. Now, and actually was going to go to this bit later on, but I want to bring it up now

because I think, as you both articulated, it seems to me that when you make decisions become polyamorous, communication becomes the most important thing because it really is about setting down, okay, this is the decision I've made, and so are you okay with this and kind of going through that process? Where a lot of times I think when you're dating

without that intentionality, there's a lot of baiting assumptions like this, Like trying to be the cool girl and failing. Talk to me about this. So I'm actually polyamorous as well and kind of got into the lifestyle maybe about seven years ago and had a really good run between 2017 and 2019 of having a few partners and they had partners and it was really nice. But then it all ended a bit badly and I ended up.

now I'm not going to go into that that's coming in the book there was something that happened that will come into the book we can read this for the juicy stories but I don't do dating apps because I find it really soul destroying in that

everything tell me about it because as people we all harbour so many multiplicities and I feel that having a picture and a few biographical information bits doesn't really do justice to like everything that I am and people see me on the app

and either like me and then when they meet me I kind of don't really know what to make of me so I don't do that anymore so what I do instead is I write pieces for Badoo the dating app and also field

about how we can all learn how to be more intentional about dating and our communicational style how do we get more about our dating style whether you're polyamorous or not how the hell do you communicate well because I bang on about the importance of communication

literally whole time my sex therapist is like communication communication before sex during sex after sex while you're dating etc etc then I get to it and I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and just shut down. So please share some hot tips on communication. So really interestingly, I haven't dated anyone for like nearly two years because the people that I come across aren't used to my communicational style.

So if I meet someone at a party, I will tell them, oh, let's swap numbers, you're hot, or whatever you say. And then, I mean, I'm not like, oh. I love the directness. You are hot. Give me your number. Well, I mean, you know, whatever the way does. We need to do a pandemic. We're not going to tame it waste.

I'm so far exactly. And then maybe I'll text them to be like, oh yes, like maybe we should go out. And then maybe I don't hear from them for a week. Then I'll text back being like, oh, I was expecting to hear from you. And I'll explain in the text that, oh, well, we met. You agreed to give me your number. We shared a kiss. And then, so then, so then I just say very kindly, like, I was kind of expecting a response.

I mean, not like, oh, I was expecting a response. But I think people aren't used to being communicated with directly, and people find it intimidating. So I'm doing a lot of writing to show people that it's not, it doesn't have to be really scary, or it doesn't, you don't have to. feel like you're laying your whole soul bear just by not game playing but I've not been successful yet so I can see someone laughing and clapping with so much joy in the back that's how I feel it's just me on my own doing my own thing but you know what I'll say from the other side not communicating at all terribly it's not working for me either so I think you know the not communicating is terrible too.

But I do think that's a really interesting point to raise. I think that fear of directness and I'm kind of wonder where that's come from. They're kind of addressing things as they are. It's almost like this game playing has become so entrenched in how we feel we need to communicate and be with one another in dating.

Is it just like an automatic response to like the escalator? So like for example it's like, okay this is how we is supposed to play out as a wee bit of small talk. What do you do? What I do? We're going to meet and all this. That's why like the only dating app that I use is Fyield because I've tried, well, one of them I don't like it

for the exact same reasons. And also I find myself judging people that I wouldn't judge in real life. Like how did you, like, what are you wearing? Why did you take that photo? Like, I'm like, if I wouldn't fancy you in real life, I don't know how to do it 2D, do you know what I mean? But, um, but like, um, but with field, it's like,

oh, like, this is what I want. People are really direct. Like, and I kind of feel like, even if I wasn't decided for whatever reason that I didn't want to be Polly anymore, I would probably still date Polly people because of that communication, right? And the directness of, hey, I'm into this, I'm not into this, I need this, and I feel like that's kind of easier there, whereas like other dating apps or just meeting people in real life, they're expecting this small talk and like that directness they're not comfortable

with because I can't be bothered anymore, like, you know, so it's direct or nothing if you can't handle it and I think it's also, you touch that, it's kind of the burden of optionality as well with dating app sometimes, is that you almost, I found myself using dating apps the first time in lockdown. And just, I needed some criteria to swipe because I was just like, there's just endless. So I was like, don't like the color of your hat, those shorts are suspect, hate that can't believe you spelled that word wrong, things that I just honestly do not care about in real life. But you have to have some filtering system. And even then you end up with like, you know, 150 people. You're like, I can't. This is totally unmanageable. Now, Brun, you.

You wrote a brilliant piece in your blog recently. Actually, might not have been that recently. I've lost track. I've got so many tabs over there. I haven't been writing anything recently. Okay, fine. You wrote a vlog entry on Mink Guides. Oh, I mean, that it's not monogamy you have an issue with, but mononormitivity.

You wrote, I think a lot of the time people object to non-monogamy because they fear it's a threat to monogamy, when it's really a threat to mononormativity. I love this. Can you explain the differences between these two terms? Yeah. So I'm going to assume everyone in here, no. knows what monogamy is. Everyone, yes? A safe assumption to make a little bit, I think.

Just in case, quick recap, it's when you're exclusive with one other person, two people in a relationship, that's it. And then mononormativity takes that particular relationship style and makes it the norm. It structures our entire society around it. So everything from religion to politics to God, like, you know, having a plus one or, you know, Like, our entire society is structured around monogamy. And so what that means is if you start to have a relationship that doesn't fit into that, then you are seen as abnormal.

And you're seen as a bit of a weirdo or a bit of a pervert or, you know, just kind of like doing things in the wrong way or just not existing in society as it's meant to happen. And so, yeah. So mononormativity is kind of very similar in ways that. a lot of other normative practices such as heteronormitivity. So it's the same thing. It's just like, oh, you know, being straight is presented as the only option. And then maybe later you might find out that, oh, there are other options.

But you are struggling against a system that tells you that, you know, it's not the norm, you know, that you should be straight. And if you're not, you're a bit of a pervert or a bit of a weirdo or just outside of, you know, the norman society. So it creates these structures that you're constantly having to fight against in every way. So if you are queer and you are non-monogamous, you're already up against so much already as well as, you know, so many other normative practices in our society. So, yeah.

And I think it's such an important point to raise because I think it is that, you know, the purpose of the discussion isn't to say monogamy is terrible and bad. And that if you're sitting in this room and you are monogamous, that that's, you know, a bad way of being a relationship at all. It's more just saying that there are problems with the kind of broad. a structural context in which monogamy has been situated as the only type of relationship that is good and viable and that we should pursue. So I think it's a really good kind of, you know, definition to look into. Now, I know you also mentioned, sorry, I told you, I'd

quote you at you all throughout the eye, aside two tend to do this, but that when you first were exploring polyamory, you didn't really have that many people around you initially who were polyamorous, who could offer you kind of advice on how to go about it. and you were actually given quite what retrospectively you see is quite poor advice. And I wondered whether you could go back to that point and knowing what you know now and the experiences you've had and what you've learned to rewrite some of those piece of advice and also maybe tell us what those were as a kind of way of elucidating some of the misconceptions.

Unfortunately, some of that advice were related to a very specific situation, which I'll just recap quickly, where I started dating someone who lived with their partner and they had both started being non-monogamous very recently. And then they were, my metamore, which a metamore is your partner's partner, if you don't know what that is. My metamore got very freaked out about the fact that I had formed a love bond with their our share partner, and they asked for me to be shut out of the relationship for an, you know, a certain amount of time.

It's supposed to be a month, ended up being a couple of months. But so I went into emotional freefall, as you can imagine. And I didn't have anyone around me that really understood how non-monogamy worked. And so a lot of my very lovely friends who were monogamous were trying to be supportive, but were also just like, well, you know, they do live together. And so that's okay that they are focusing on their relationship for a while. you should step aside and just let them work on their relationship. And that was really incredibly hard for me because I felt that my needs were just kind of

written off and I was just this other, the other woman, as our society likes to, you know, put non-monogamous relationships like that. So, yeah, it was really, really hard. So kind of thinking back to that advice now, like, you know, I would have loved to have someone around me who was like, hey, your needs matter. you have like your relationship matters it would have been so lovely to have someone there who understood that you know relationships can be the way that i understand them to be now so yeah and something you said to me early so that actually one of the misconceptions that you encounter is that being polyamorous means that you're not romantic and that you're not like loving because you kind of you know can't encounter that quite a bit and actually it's the antithesis to that and actually it's it's it's it's it's we were joking about this earlier about the fact that actually a lot of polyamorous people are very big on romance and love. We love love. That's why we're trying to get lots of it in our

lives. So, yeah, so there's this idea that, you know, that we don't take our relationship seriously if you're non-monogamous. Oh, you know, you don't, you're not really invested. You're not taking it very seriously. How can love really blossom within those kind of connections where, yeah, as someone who's currently going through a really intense bout of not a new relationship energy right now. I'm just like feeling very full of love and confusion and excitement and all of that. So, yeah. That's the best abundance of feelings, though, especially as we go into summer. I'm like, I'm a bit jealous.

But don't worry, I got dumped, so we're all good. And Nadine, I was listening to a podcast earlier. And you mentioned before, I think, this kind of sexual journey that you've been on. So you've been celibate for a little bit of time, and now you're coming out of that. and noad we spoke before you've kind of been on this journey really exploring that and in this podcast you mentioned how pussy palace became kind of queerer as it went on and that really intertwined with your own kind of sexual development in that time can you talk to us a little bit about that yeah so if you if anyone knows pussy palace like from the beginning we used to be a house party

and then you know we took it after a year we took it out of the house and you know it was a really mixed party at the beginning because I wasn't strong like the trajectory of Pussy Palace like getting stronger as like a party, a brand or whatever is also runs parallel to how my confidence in my own identity

like it was just an off shot of who I am I was like oh like I don't really have partying in the house because I hate like going out and it's safer here oh but if I'm going to take it out the house well I want to be around more queer people of colour yeah but I don't really know how to do that and then like you know

but like, okay, I think I'm actually trans, like, so let me figure that out and like being around people to do that. So, yeah, like, it is just, it mirrors my identity. Not anymore, like, because now I'm not, like, it's not my child anymore. I'm treating it like a business and it's a separate thing to me. Pandemic, like, did a lot of training on all of that

and how to, like, not have it be my child anymore, my petulant Scorpio child. but now yeah so and through that and as well like just being around other people seeing how they live their life seeing how they work through their sexuality

or sexual trauma because of course like a lot of people come to pussy fast because we experience sexual trauma elsewhere and they want to come somewhere where they feel like where it's more intentional where they're going to feel like seen so you know lots of conversations about like sexual

trauma would like come up just in conversations in the club. So, and then that helped me feel stronger in who I was, in my identity, and then also just mirroring it with other people around you. And then, yeah, just, that's it. What was the other question that you asked me? Was it just that one, like, the mirroring?

Yeah, no, it's just exactly that. That was a perfect answer, but kind of how that, how the, kind of, because I heard you say before that the kind of queerness of, it put a seat past became more and more queer, and that really was a reflection of you really kind of embracing your sexuality and learning more about your sexuality. Because like

I said earlier, I've been queer forever, but I had so much shame attached to it, like, so much shame attached to sex, polyamory, queerness, like, from, like, growing up Muslim in Glasgow and, yeah, like, so it really helped me. Oh, Andrea, so do you mind just doing the, sorry to interrupt you, Dean, but we can't have MacBook, Emma, there we go. Sorry about that. But yeah, people come to me all the time and say that Pussy Palace has been like a really healing space for them, but it's, you know, it's been my therapy, like also as well, which is kind selfish reasons why I started it really so yeah but that's why we all do

these projects of sex talks catent points continue but also just a point on celibacy it's something that if anyone's really you're struggling with attachment issues or anything like that that's why I did it and it is the best thing ever like I learned so much in that period of celibacy have a better sexual

relationship with myself I have stronger orgasms on my own I don't need the other stimulation of that you get from like someone else to like get that now like it is and this problems that I had with attachment because I would be like if you're not obsessed with me then what's the point you know but

that was me wanting to attach for just even if I didn't even like the person I would cry because someone didn't text me back and I'm like I don't even like this person what am I doing you know so and like celibacy and not forcing myself to be in to default to just go on a date like it's been

amazing so I really high it's hard but I highly recommend it. Can I ask and absolutely don't worry if this is too personal but what the kind of final tipping point was for you that made you decide to go celebrate it was in therapy I was sexual trauma

was coming up in a lot I was a sex worker escort for 10 years and I only knew how to have relationships that I didn't know how to separate even though I'd stopped doing I stopped escorting at like November 2018 but like

I didn't really know how to have like sex like without getting paid for it so um and like and that like bled into all of my relationships and also like I wanted to be loved so much because in my job like I wasn't like loved you know it was sex like without without that so I just would attach myself really strongly to people and then like sexual traumas would come out like panic attacks after having orgasms and stuff like this so I was like you know from the advice for my therapist I think about going there it was celibate and I was like absolutely not you know so how can I do that

like what how's going to cuddle me who's going to do all this but I'm like well actually I can get that from my friends I can do that with myself like there's other ways to do that and yeah it was like being almost it was almost I said I'd give myself a year but if I healed my attachment issues before then like it's so crazy to say that I've healed them you know but it is actually that like I don't have the same issues

and now I started to like talk to people and stuff like that and I'm not caring if they're going to reply back to me like straight away like I'm a better communicator I'm a better a friend to myself and to others, like, it really is amazing. That deserves a whoop. Honestly, like, intentional celibacy is the one. It is. It's great.

I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. That was so powerful. And I want to turn now, I'm jumping ahead again, but I just, I can't not, to the sexuality survey, um, that you've been doing. Because as you said, um, then a dean about the kind of the shame and guilt that was so attached to kind of your relationship with sex. and the Aquinas, that was something that came up in your survey, which I thought was a really

fascinating point to jump on. So just for a bit of context, you've been compiling a sex and sexuality survey, which I believe has 29 questions. 26. I'm under 29. And maybe this part's A and B for something. There is A and B. But I checked last night, I was going through it, being like, oh my God, these are such good questions. And it really delves into kind of the evolution of respondents' relationship to sex and sexuality. And we'll begin with the kind of question that kind of caught my eye initially, and then we'll go into the shame and guilt component of it, which really ties in the Dean with what

you were saying there, which was fascinating. Now, the question that obviously I attached on to initially was, do you enjoy sex? And then you go on to ask, if not, why not? And I thought we had to go into that, because as this evening is all about kind of exploring and unpicking the cultural, sexual scripts that we grow up with. I really want to know what people's hang-ups, as you've encountered, are when it comes to sex, what their blockers are. Because I think those are so indicative of these reductive scripts that we're discussing. So what was the general response to this question?

And for those who said no, kind of what were these perceived blockers to enjoying sex? Yeah, so I'm running this survey for the purposes of my book to find out what people are actually thinking about sex and sexuality. And I've just made up the questions myself. So it's, most of them are open-ended questions, but the one about enjoying sex is yes, no, or maybe. And I, because I love sex. Like, it definitely used, it's not a hobby anymore. I'm celibate now as well.

But so I thought most people would be like putting yes, yes, yes, yes. but lots of people have put maybe and quite a lot of people have put no and lots of the reasons there are lots of body issues that have come up like people not being able to be embodied and like in their body

and worried about what their partners thinking about their body and also how they are acting in the moment so I haven't actually got a question about porn on the survey, but lots of the people taking the survey are millennials and were the first generation to grow up with internet porn. So lots of us are seen a lot of porn. And porn that you see on tube sites is really different from how sex is a lot of the time. So people are

quite self-conscious of how they are when they're actually in the moment of having sex. And then also people, the lots of people have religious shame about sex, which is, yeah, a big thing. And I kind of grew up people that extended family used to try and shame me and be like, oh, Christian people don't really have sex before marriage, but I was able to like shake that off really early and never let that affect me. So I kind of got away with that. What else have people been saying? lots of people are saying no they don't enjoy sex because of previous sexual trauma obviously which is a real issue so that's not good and it's so just all these things i think so often come back to the fact that we still do have this taboo around sex but even though we're confronted with sex all the time and it's so prolific within advertising on tv etc there's still this taboo in terms of how we actually talk about it and the vulnerability

and the honesty with which I think we're able to really delve into our individual sexual woes and issues. And particularly, say, like, not with a religious kind of, the baggage that a lot of us kind of carry into this kind of very intimate space and which invariably affects how we're then able to kind of be in that moment, I think is just so kind of universal and yet so often we can feel so alone in that. And just when you were describing before that idea of people feeling getting really hung up, on what the other person's thinking. There was a survey, I think, done in 2018 that was looking at the difference between the kind of things that inhibit men versus women when they're having sex.

And I think it was like 70% or more of women said it was their body image issues that really came up and stopped them being able to be in the moment. Which Fran Bush, who was in the previous sex talks with the wonderful Ruby Reyes here, saying she had a word spectatorship. So it's where you almost kind of come out of your body and you're looking as though you're kind of like a helicopter above it.

the number of times I felt that, I'm just shocked at my own spectatorship. But you then go on to ask, and I mentioned this before, and it kind of ties in with what you were saying there about the religious guilt, kind of the feelings of shame around our bodies, but the guilt and shame that crop up so frequently. And I think that female sexuality in particular, I think can be a really hard thing to navigate. We think about shame and guilt. I know growing up, I really felt aware of being perceived either as a slut if I had sex with lots of boys or as a prude, which I ended up being called, because I was so scared of sex. And it's that kind of

classic Madonna versus whore trope, which Freud coined many years ago. And I think I personally still feel now that I'm kind of trying to figure out how to explore and inhabit my sexuality and to kind of be a sexual person. And I was saying before we started, I felt like I kind of cracked it in sex therapy and I came out being like oh my god I'm cute I'm done I'm ready and I've literally just gone right back into all the old habits and things that really kind of stopped me feeling sexual before so back to sex therapy I go um but I'd be really interested to know kind of from from the from the answers that you got kind of what the things that were cropping up most frequently were when it comes to that kind of feeling of guilt specifically

So I don't have the materials in front of me. They're all on a Google doc. Was there any kind of themes that really kind of sprung to mind? Yes. You've mentioned the religious kind of that. Yeah. So kind of like that most of the people filling in the survey identify as female.

And the women filling it in have kind of said that they are not sure how much pleasure they're allowed to experience. So it's because society doesn't really allow us to access pleasure without forfeiting something else. So people really have really struggle to kind of break that barrier. That actually this is something that we can all enjoy. Like you don't have to earn it. Yeah, you don't have to earn it. So that was one thing that was cropping up quite a lot.

And that's so interesting. I recently introduced Dr. Karen Gurney, who's a fantastic sex therapy. who really talked about that and how we kind of have this, particularly amongst women who come to her therapy room, have this real, can be like how baddest bitches, CEOs in the real world. When it comes to being in the bedroom, feel really unable to express what might actually give them pleasure and to kind of verbalise that and to own that. And, you know, in the course of discussion, she was like, you know, maybe sometimes you go into sex

and you just say, actually, you know, at this time, can we just do stuff to me? And I was like, in my head, I thought about it. I was like, I cannot ever imagine being in a sexual situation and being like, actually, can we just focus on me? It seems like totally anathema to me. And yet, speaking, running sex, sort of focusing on a female pleasure to boo. It just felt so alien. I'd be really interesting, actually, from kind of the whole panel, the extent to which shame and guilt have featured in your relationship, sex, sexuality. So, Nadine, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but is there any other way in which these kind of feelings have been very present in how you've experienced sex?

Well, yeah, there was just so much, like, I guess it took me ages to, I didn't come out as, like, coming out some myth. Like, we can, that's a different panel, right? But, but I didn't feel confident enough myself to say, hey, I'm queer, even though I had partners, queer partners before, I didn't feel confident in myself. It took me up until I was 27, like a year into, like two years into doing Pussy Palace before I was like, okay, hey, actually, I am, you know? and that was because of guilt and that was because of shame because of like religious trauma because of society

and just feeling like and also because honestly because of like sex work as well like I had to play straight like all the time to pay my rent so and and then yeah the shame was like really actually to do a lot with kink which actually kink is incredibly like

healing for sexual trauma as well which I found out later so is like I was interested in things that I had incredible shame over I was like that is disgusting like how and also they were the things that I also experienced in sexual trauma so how can I be turned on by the thing that caused me so much pain so then it was a whole like journey with that and then I would partner with people who were like toxic and do those things just naturally anyway like and that's what I thought I was attracted to when I realized actually I can be, date, actually, healthy people,

and then I can have, and work on my shame and get these things out of kink and kink only where, like, it's talked about, it's consensual and things like that. So it took me a long, long time because of shame and guilt to actually accept who I was as a person, and that has been monumental to my life.

If it wasn't for shame and guilt, like, I wouldn't have gone through all of that drama and pain and, you know, for almost my whole life until I was 27 when I started to go, okay, actually, here we go, it's healing time. And you just mentioned, there that kink can be a really healing mechanism and that and that's because you can explore these

things outside of the context of relationship can you just tell me a little bit more about so like for example um the things that i was attracted to in a partner or in a sexual a sexual partner um were things that um it's just that they were like naturally toxic people narcissistic people people that would love bomb me that would um like you know break my boundaries all the time when it comes to like consent and stuff like that but i thought that that was hot right because it can be hot, right? But you have to, but like, and then it wasn't until I was like, okay, let me explore kink and then find out ways that people can experiment with it,

impact play, BDSM, like CNC and stuff like this, to actually go, oh, I'm in control. I have actually empowered because I'm choosing to do these things because I find it pleasurable and it exists only there to pleasure me, not because I don't have to attach myself to someone who's toxic to get those things. you know, so that was kind of... No, that's so interesting here. And Bronwyn, what about you?

Has kind of shame or guilt featured in your relationship to sex and to sexuality at all? Yeah, so I'm, like, I've had, like, a very common, like, issue surrounding shame and sex, which has been that I've never been able to orgasm through penetrative sex, and I had this idea for a really, really long time that I was somehow failing at sex. And it's really incredible to me looking back now, how long I just kind of was just like, I'm just really bad at sex, I can't do sex, I'm just really crap at it, and would constantly set this like expectation up for myself that maybe one day I will be able to achieve this like nivana of sex, you know, by just like naturally

coming for, through penetrative sex. And it was quite strange because I was obviously having sex with people with penises, PIV sex, but I was also having sex with people in other ways as well and like I would use toys with up in like non-PIV sex and whether they were things that stimulated me or just general toys anyway but for some reason I just was had this kind of feeling and I think it might have been attached to perhaps trying to use toys that stimulated me during piv sex and having someone be like oh that it's really annoying that buzzing or something like that and I got really like very uptight about it and then just kind of stopped bringing that up as an option. And so for a really long time, I just kind of just was, you know, not centering my pleasure

when it came to P of V sex and right up until probably in the last couple of years. But one of the interesting things is I went on a date recently where we'd discussed that we were going to be having sex. And I got there on the date and I realized I hadn't brought my sex toy with me. And I was like, hi, so once we've finished having these drinks, we're going to get an Uber back to mine so I can get my sex toy and then we can go onto yours, which is where we'd decided we were having sex. And I was like, I've really come through all of this kind of stuff. That's amazing. I'm really glad that I'm centering it so much now. So that level of communication, I am in awe. I absolutely love that. Um, now as you said, um, you managed to kind

of escape the, um, kind of religious kind of baggage or expectation around the guilt and shame. And this podcast, I was listening that you were on to earlier, come as a Come Curious Podcast. So good. Listen to this episode. I'll send it out an email afterwards. But you were discussing the first time you had P&V sex, trying to move away from this virginity thing.

And you said that you came the first time because you'd had this really great, you'd been, you'd had a really great relationship to self-pleasure, it'd been something that'd been kind of a part of what you'd been doing for years. Where did that seemingly very healthy relationship to sex, self-pleasure? What was that rooted in? So, hmm. So I, when I was in primary school, oh, so let me backtrack, so it just so happened that the peers that I had in primary school, we were all quite politically aware and quite precocious.

And we used to talk about stuff like in year three, year four, we just used to talk about stuff who we fancied, like we used to talk about sex because I'd been given a where do babies come from book to read by my mum who was a doctor when I was seven. And so I took it into school, we all read it together. So we just had a culture within my primary school of sharing. And interestingly, it was a Church of England primary school. But I don't know, we just all were just obsessed with like talking about sex and like who we were going to snog. So it was never, so having nice, fuzzy feelings in my body when I fancied someone was just something that I just used to tell my friends about. So it was always externally validated. And then I used to masturbate as a teenager.

I don't think I told anyone. But I mean, I knew what I was doing and it was fine. It was great. So then when I had a boyfriend, it was, yeah, it was great. I just so envy for this. I mentioned this in the first sex talks. The first time I remember my parents did no sex education. At school, there was very little sex education.

But I remember, and Billy will remember this anecdote, I put together this little folder of pictures of Draco Malfoy because I decided I really fancied him. He was like my, I can see your face shot, I know. I don't know that my standards have got that much better, so let's just... Well, I'm saying that because me too. Well, great. I'd put together this little folder, maybe you had one too.

I have pictures of Draco and show it to my mom being like, I'm in love. I just, I know what love is. And I was about 10 years old. And I remember she was putting me to bed And I was like And look at this one And look at him and the cloak Oh the cloak

And she just turned off the light And said Don't have sex until you're 18 And left And I was like And I went to an all girls school And it just There was not discussion

Of sex self pleasure And I remember once And I think this It came up and you'll say something You know Was in the bath And had the shower head And was like

Oh my God It feels so good And was like This is bad This is dirty It's disgusting. No one must ever know you did this. And I think looking back on it, that it was so ingrained.

And I don't, not one kind of specific person said to me, but it was so ingrained in my psyche that my pleasure and my relationship body was not a positive thing and was not something to be explored. And it wasn't until I went to university. Oh, the screen's gone again. And yeah. As much as we love to see, yeah.

Oh, and the laptop's about to die. we've had tech issues that's it I'm not a tech person and it wasn't until I went to university that I said you know I'd never had a thank you I'd never had a vibrator and someone was like wait what but you're like 20 and I was like I didn't I genuinely didn't know they existed and I look back and I'm like oh my gosh all those years of pleasure that you could have experienced that you could have explored your body and I think it's kind of like robbed just because we don't I think sex education is so poor. So I really do, the fact that you did manage to cultivate this really

great relationship to self-pleasure, it also feels quite unique. Because I certainly don't know that many, certainly amongst my friends, who had a similar experience and who had that, especially kind of a first time having penchant of sex and actually enjoying it, as opposed to being horrified by it, which I certainly was. But I am my only reference point for having sex with Marissa and OC, and so I had no idea what I was doing. It was terrible. there was actually I wanted to quote this because there was one respondent whose response really stuck out to me on the survey that I just wanted to relate I think it just fit in so perfect with tonight's discussion

they wrote I believe that we all have a tremendous capacity for pleasure but sadly the weight of conservative social norms and existing sexual scripts have done a good job of preventing us from fully enjoying this innate part of ourselves I think I'm really lucky in that I was able to shake off that baggage at the beginning of my sexual career I've had many truly transcendental physical experiences and hope that others have too. Was that you? Yeah, that's like, because I haven't made the responses public

apart from a few that were anonymous, but that was my answer. Oh, that was yours! Yeah, so. Oh my God, I was, I genuinely didn't realize because I just took them from you online. It's perfect. That's it. It sounds like, oh, great. No, no, nice to know it was you. Now, I wanted to turn, hang on, I've got it.

Oh, to just before we go, so I've got loads of Q&A questions. So before, when everyone signed up, I asked everyone to kind of, submit a question. So if your friend bought you a ticket, you might not have put forward a question, but I'll hand out some pen and paper. But I have a bunch of brilliant questions for everyone who did put them forward. But before we get to that, I did just want to go to one more point on polyamory. And I think throughout this discussion, I think we've looked at some of the misconceptions that crop up in the face of polyamory. And yeah, some of the general kind of misunderstandings. But I think one thing that does come up a lot, it seems,

and what I've kind of been read and listening to is this notion of commitment and people questioning whether someone who is polyamorous really understands and is able to be committed. And I think perhaps because of the prevailing idea that commitment equates to a monogamous lifelong relationship with marriage, kids, a shared pension, et cetera, it's kind of hard for people to envisage

that commitment can exist in different ways outside of this structure. I think it's definitely a struggle as something that I struggle with. Bronwyn, you published a piece on your blog asking people from across your community what commitment means to them

which listed some great responses. Before we kind of look into those responses, I'd be really curious to know what commitment means to every person on the panel. So, Bromwood, do you want to start this off as it was your survey? Sure. So this was really interesting for me because I was, as I said, I get faced with this a lot where people think that my relationships

don't involve commitment at all. And I've just been really surprised by the fact that how those relationships feel don't feel that different in terms of investment to being married and, you know, cohabiting and all of that. So yeah, for me, it just really means like putting in that energy, that investment into someone really showing up for them, like being there for them in just in a way that's not about like, I expect you to do this because you live with me and you're married to me and that's like how our life is going to be. It's like, I am here for you, I'm showing up for you. I want to be there for you. And that for me is very much about the basis of commitment for me. And Gene, what about you? It's a really good question.

It's something that I've not thought about, especially in this new like phase of my life that I'm just like coming into in the way that I'm viewing like sex and relationships now. But I guess like a commitment, it's kind of case by case, you know, because it's like a conversation that you're having with that person, whether that be a friend, a partner, your work colleague, what the commitment to whatever it is that you're trying to achieve together and that can look different from person to person. And I'll ask about you.

Yeah, I think for me it's intentional communication and honesty. Yeah. There was one response I particularly liked on the survey that I think it's from something called Ada. Wait, how have you seen the survey? Oh no, this is from Ronwin's blog. There's been a leak.

You were like, tell me. How have you got this information? The survey, I just read the responses that you published. Very above board. Whatever you'd put online, I read. That was it, nothing more. This was from Bronwyn's blog where she'd asked her community. And Ada responded,

commitment to me could look like actions of love rather than a signature on paper. For instance, if I'm committed to you, I wouldn't marry you. But I would travel across the world to be there for you when you need it. Oh, my God, I love that. I think that's so beautiful. Esther Perel talks a lot about love is a verb. It's like it's a choice. It's an action.

It's not just like he fall in love and that's it. It's like, okay, cool, check out. It's actually the showing up and it's action. I'd love to know what people in the audience, how you will view commitment. Is there anyone who'd happily put up their hand and tell me what commitment means to them? Come on.

I'll pick on you otherwise. Yes. The thing is something about being like a long-term thing. Like you're still going to be there. You're not going to go. It's not ephemeral. It's like I, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to say I'll be here.

And that's not like, it's not like, I'm looking for sure of whatever. So it's kind of like, it's almost in between like deep, deep friendship. family, like, the sense that it's rooted, you know? So it's like kind of on longevity and rootedness. Amazing. Anybody else?

Yes? I'd like, I'd like be away from commitment because I think like in terms of relation to escalate to partnerships deems as a failure if it doesn't, you don't commit it forever. So we can live by it for a reason, a season or a lifetime. A reason, a season or a lifetime. I love that. That's really beautiful.

That is really beautiful. Anybody else? Commitment? I feel like that for a commitment and when you have like other partners or anything a commitment to each other's growth and like that kind of level of like giving people the freedom to see themselves and supporting them and doing that to me that's like commitment. Absolutely. Important me and my fuck ups are like incredibly important to commitment. Yeah, I agree with that. And too often we like see relationships as like, oh, I meet someone. They're like a product. I take down off the shelf and I'm like, I expect you to stay like that product forever because that's why I just. chose you and then we just create this completely limiting idea of surrounding our partner

with a fence being like you can't change don't change and yeah like being there and being open to that person growing into whoever they are going to become no matter whether that even actually might work with you or not and that's a really scary thing but like being wanting that person to be completely growing into themselves is really important which kind of speaks back to the piece you mentioned earlier that you wrote around the kind of the when we go into dating with the pretence of needing to be like the cool girl when you do that actually you kind of set yourself up to trip up if you actually go into something more long term because it's at that point you're not like this finished product that's going to be super cool and tied and done together

the whole time actually you do need to evolve and grow someone anybody else want to share their view yes person at the back it's just something I was working through my head so So for me, it's about just showing up when you need to. That goes, that's kind of when it matters. I love that, because I think that's true across friendships and relationships. Like, I think I'm not the person that's going to be, like, super on it with WhatsApp. I hate it. And sometimes I do just go into my head for weeks and end, I'll disappear.

But if you need me, any time, any day, and we're close friends, I will be there. And I think that can really ring true with relationships as well. It's not necessarily always about the like, the cards and the dress and the door. It's actually like, are you there when I need you the most? That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Anybody else on commitment? Oh, now everyone's got their hands up.

Everyone's got all confident because everyone else has been speaking. I love it. Okay. I think I've been going through a journey of understanding what love is. And for me, love is commitment because I used to be so like, I love for me, a person, it's the feeling. But love for me is commitment. What commitment is to me is patience and perseverance.

echo whatever, and saying, like, I need to see them as their toughest and not want to walk away. They can see me as my toughest and not be able to walk away and just try. And if you try it and you get to a point where it is affecting your mental health, and you know maybe it's not time to commit anymore. I think that's great. And I think also, again, speaks back to what we're discussing earlier with dating apps, kind of sometimes creating this kind of optionality, this, like, abundance of optionality.

We can actually maybe shirk that, like, you know, sticking it out sometimes because, think there's just so many other people. But actually, it can be great if you do. And was there somebody else there? Yes, Raga. I think commitment is about making, you know, someone feels safe. And you know that you have to create that safe space for yourself and your partner. And reality of life is that it is not easy. Things change. You may go through ups and downs. Every day is not in technically. It's Sunday. You know, you may have illnesses. Things may change. you know, people get big and you have their body shaving, there's fear. So I think commitment is about holding a person's hand through the journey

and no matter what happens, you are there for that person. And that's, to me, it's commitment with a wring or without a way. I love that. Will you about put your hand up? Go on, Billy? Well, I don't know. It's a really interesting question. I don't think I've pondered it enough.

But what is really apparent is that commitment means something different to every person. And actually what you've been saying this whole evening is you have to show up and ask that person what they want, what they need, what these definitions are for them in order to be successful. And I think those are the conversations that we just don't have enough of. As you said before, we come in with our own expectations, our own rocks like a baggard and thinking, like, this is our view of the world. And everyone's going to have the same one because of the norms that we have. But we all so unique, we all bring our own life experiences. So actually asking what's going to mean. I really resonate with that

when I wrote this question I sat back and thought I actually have no idea what commitment means to me so sorry for asking all of you to have these pre-formulated answers right I'm going to go through as I said I've collected anonymously your questions in advance of this

so thank you everyone who sent theirs through do you want a like five minute break now yes okay that was a very okay wow I run back to your seat we've got more questions to get through Right, so hopefully everyone's had a chance to shake their legs. Oh my God, who am I?

Get some movement in. Right, so I've had some questions handed in, which we will go through. But there are a couple that people, there were so many good questions, by the way. Thank you so much to everyone who wrote their question in advance of this evening. I think this is kind of what I'm gauging from having quick chat with everyone. there is just so much in this. It's such a rich topic area. So I think it's like once you lift the lid,

once you begin questioning this cultural, sexual script, you're like, there's a whole lot to get. I mean, you're like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So really thank you, everyone, for contribute the question. So what we'll do is we'll go through a couple of these as a kind of like quickfire round. Some of them might be a bit longer.

And then I'm going to ask my wonderful panel, please just jump in and answer kind of what you feel most comfortable with. And if there is silence, I will point. I won't. I will. Right. Okay. So the first question is I'm in an open relationship, but I'm not sure if I'm polyamorous.

How do I start a good conversation with my partner about it? You see exactly that. Kind of sounds like a conversation they need to have with themselves first. You know, like that, I mean, if they can obviously go on this journey talking about it through it with their partner, but like if they're not sure if they want to be polyamorous, then maybe start like thinking about that more on their own terms about what they're looking for first before thinking about what that means in terms of the relationship. Yeah. What does polyamora look like to them? I'd say great first step as being. I think tonight's conversation has probably got your brain wearing. So I think this is a great first step. for this person, whoever you may be. And I think that just to reflect on that momentarily,

I think that is that conversation with yourself. I think that like self-reflecting, and I think that we could actually, or no should, sorry, God, but many of us could actually benefit from taking a step back and being quite reflective of how we are dating and approaching relationships and sex and romance and everything. And I think, you know, we've all reflected at some points on like various attachment issues

and realizing how you can project that. things into relationships and how and how you relate to people and I think actually it's really good almost to do like an audit of how you are is how you're behaving with people is that healthy does it make you feel good that sort of thing so regardless of whether whatever you're going through I think we can actually all really benefit from doing that maybe that could be sex talks homework everyone has to go and audit how they approach sex and relationships at the moment and then let me know how it goes but just sorry to follow up on that because I realize the person asked how do they start that conversation actually. So I was going to say that that's actually a really big conversation to

have. So like don't have it when you're in the supermarket queue. Like, you know, make some like special time. And like if you've been reading resources, make those resources available to your partner because you might have been thinking about all of this stuff and they might be maybe even slightly blindsided by the conversation. So like make sure that like it's not something that you are like are rushing to have this conversation but like carve out some time for it and yeah if you've got some books share the books podcasts stuff like that you know yeah i also think sometimes there's this pressure that we need to do all this things face to face um um i'm neurodivergent and sometimes you know when i people's reactions can also cause me to um change what i think you know so sometimes

you know maybe especially if it's something like a bigger question and there's like a links to research just like, hey, I've been feeling this. I don't feel ready to say it face to face yet, but I've got all these issues. You want to, like, go and think about it, and then we'll come and meet together and have, like, and face conversation about it once you've, you know, processed and thought about it, you know?

So that's kind of how I do things. I think that's such a good piece of advice. I'm a letter writer, which is so intense, but that's so much as my personality. She knows. And when I say letter, I do not mean some short little note. I mean, like, a 1,500 word of letter. but I find that in the moment of any sort of like

whether it be a breakup, an issue, relationship or anything, I suddenly, I get, the same as you, I get really like, I don't, I can't quite process, like, my thoughts just get so jumbled and I can't really say what I think. I really end up kind of placating what the other person is how they're feeling and trying to just, how can I make you feel better? And then I go away from it, I'm like, hmm, and then 1,500 words later, I'm like,

ah, that is what I was feeling and you are going to know about it. So I think, yeah, I would, from my perspective, letter writing is a great way. And I think this comes up quite a bit in sex talks actually of if you have any issues with sex with your partner, it's often rather than it kind of bring it up in the moment of having sex, when often you can both be feeling quite vulnerable. Actually, it's kind of conversation that are better to have outside of that context. So I think that's also worth kind of mentioning here. So, right. Oh, hang on, there's so many. How can you manage power dynamics in polyamory?

I wonder exactly what they meant by that. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Is it like beetle power and couple privilege and things like that or, I mean... Without wanting to try and get this person to out them, I mean... Or systemic power. So let's answer that question about

power dynamics in the context of maybe if you are yeah, couple. So you're a couple and you want to open up your relationship, right? And like, how do you do that in a way that's, like, is safe and beneficial for you, your partner and the people that you might be dating? And I guess, like, a really typical thing, like, would be to do, I guess when I first came into polyamory, it was like, oh, you know, there's this primary relationship. They are the, the, the, the, like, you know, just similar to what you were talking about earlier, and you can have things like, what happened to you, like, Vito power, where someone could be like, I, actually, yeah, you're already dating and I don't like this person anymore, and they're feeling comfortable, so you can cut off that relationship. So that's actually something that's still, like, pretty common, that couples think that they can, that they're able to do, but it's detrimental to the two people that were having that relationship. And, you know, so as a couple, you can

talk about how like um you um you know are not going to do that and also unpack like the privilege that you have as a couple like and we were talking earlier about um being seen as normative and like the plus one and stuff like that so how do you begin to unpack that as a couple so that it's like so that's when I first thought of power dynamics I was thinking that and I mean I understand like this is actually me like segueing into something else that I want to talk about but I love a good segue segue segue segue it's like I understand that why the term like ethical non-monogamy came up is because it's like, hey, non-monogamy sort of looks like this and that feels like quite unethical and for so many people and therefore like toxic.

So let's use the word E&M. But I need to like just say to everyone that like there's nothing like inherently like unethical about non-monogamy. And I think sometimes especially like in this lifestyle, we copy what other people have done because like oh they're written E&M so I'll write E&M. Like that's what I mean. I'm ethical. But like it feels like every person who's quite adamant in the ethical

non-monogamy and saying that E&M still are not practicing what I would consider ethical and it sometimes can be misleading and also like quite um um um uh what's the word I'm looking for we talked about it a little bit like pretentious yeah it feels it's like a prioritising the kind of putting an onus on like the monogamous relationship is like that's ethical that's how it's done it and everything else is deviation from yeah that's how you make sense so I'm not really into to that word you know and I think we tend to I do it too. I was using it for a bit as well because other people were doing it and it's like making sure you're carving out what that means to you. What is the paradigm like means to you?

But I guess then the other paradigm like which I think maybe you were going to get into it is like between each other maybe the other one. Yeah, I think it's always just about thinking about who is in your sphere and that you're interacting with and how see it from their perspective on how you're attempting to navigate something. So it's just like oh like you know as the example of we're in a couple and we want to do this. But then think about. the other people involved and like how their position might relate to yours and how are you treating them in an ethical way are you being a decent human being to them you know so um that's one way of trying to navigate that and like i guess like you know there's power dynamics happening all the time

you know and it's just like being aware of them can you talk about these paradynamics with the people that you're with is that to do with uh um bodies race gender like you know i for example like i wouldn't get into like a situation what I have done and it's not that I wouldn't ever but I'm very like careful when I get into a relationship

with a white person who has a partner that is also white because that's like me stepping into something that's like inherently oppressive so I need to be careful there and making sure that we're having these conversations about like the paradigmic between them and how that like relates to me

but you know with a good communication anything can be solved right and yeah communication communication communication I'll big takeaway from tonight just as you were speaking there Dean I thought

and I really thought this last night I was listening to a podcast that was done I think it was point of view by the BBC on Pollyamory and it's not it's quite like it's done quite like a stuffy way but yeah yeah if you listened to that one it was put the point it's the B

yeah yeah yeah I know unsurprising but there yeah wait was that on it no no you went on oh my god I was like I'd really try to remember that podcast No, sorry, just as you're speaking, I was really reminded this because I think the show kind of brought up a lot of the questions around polyamory

around like, but isn't there like the power dynamics and isn't there like jealousy and isn't it like an unstable environment in which to raise kids? And as those questions were coming out, I was like, but these are all things who experience all time in monogamous relationships. Like you just should deal with it the same way

that you deal with it, you just talk about it And any way, like jealousy, bitterness, even anger, these are all surface emotions. Underneath there's something else that you need to deal with, you know? Always. But I think that total misconception that somehow if you're in this, and again, it feeds back to these cultural, these prevailing cultural narratives we're talking about, that if you're in a monogamous relationship, like, it's all fine and dandy, it's great, there's no jealousy. I mean, it's just ridiculous.

It's kind of farcical. And power dynamics can be so prevalent in a kind of monogamous relationship. So I think anything that forces you to really interrogate all these things is super valuable. So someone else has asked, what, sorry, they just put transitioning in and out of monogamy. So I guess we're just speaking to, how do you navigate going in and out of monogamous relationships? And is that something that you feel like you can do? And that's what do you think? That's really interesting because at the moment I think I'm trying to transition.

If anyone will date me, I've tried to trust. Give me a like, let's date each other. tried to date into monogamy for a while and I think for me it's about intentionality so as long as the person

that you're speaking to is aware of maybe a bit of your history but then if you can be really honest and vulnerable with them and say okay I'm trying this now and also make it known to them

that what you're doing with them is not just an experiment but it's just a journey and you're going to deal with it with kindness and care, I think, yeah. I think kindness and care seems to be the prevailing. This is what we need to apply to all of these relationships. But I think, yeah, it comes back to, I think we've been saying a lot tonight.

It's communication. Communication, kindness and care could be our motto for this evening, which I like. How to feel emotionally safe within a polyamorous relationship? that's interesting so I think it kind of suggests that maybe a polyamist relationship wouldn't be emotionally safe but I guess it's about or my interpretation of that would be essentially and I think this is applicable to any relationship so I'd be interested to know actually everyone in the panel kind of how you approach this how do you draw your boundaries when it comes to relationships and I think that's something I've definitely worked on a lot in sex therapy of real and actually

through having my boundaries broken a lot recently I didn't really realize or know what my were, particularly when it came to sex, because I'd never really question them. I'd always really sought to, like, appease other people. And so I think, whether it's a polyamorous relationship or, you know, any relationship, understanding and knowing what your boundaries are, knowing what makes you feel emotionally safe and what makes you feel emotionally unsafe is so important. So I wonder what each of you kind of, how you approach that. This is getting into deep therapy territory now. We're all like, I think

the therapy room I think embodiment has quite a lot to do with it and like when you're with someone in a certain dynamic if you're feeling a bit off about it really just think okay I'm feeling off

why is that and then maybe well it's often likely that oh some kind of boundary is being crossed so I think it's about really being able to understand all the things, well, not everything that's happening in your body, but have more awareness of whether you're acting, reacting to them or responding, and just

being a bit more aware of you and your own projections and what you're feeling and that and the general dynamic. I think that is so important. And I think it comes back as like you have to trust your gut if every time you leave someone maybe you have sex to them and you feel shit it's a pretty good indication that a boundary's being crossed there she goes crossing that boundary again and again and again but I think actually being able to be really get in touch with how with how you feel is so important but I think that often particularly when if we've kind of grown up thinking that our pleasure isn't really important which I do think we talk a lot about female pleasure to be in sex

talks if you've grown up thinking that your pleasure isn't important I think it can actually be, you really have to go through a process of learning how to inhabit and embrace that pleasure and therefore, and that can be really helpful in learning those boundaries. Bromwell, I'm kind of leading on from that as someone who really struggles with an anxiety. I know when I'm not feeling safe because my body goes at me. And I've had various experiences where, you know, I've started relationships and I haven't felt like panicked or anxious. It's just felt lovely and fine. And then I've had, you know, relationship start and I felt like, oh my God, I'm absolutely terrified. What is going on? And my

body and my mind is screaming at me. And to be able to become, get to a point of feeling safe in that connection, it's had to do with a lot of communication. I've had to do a lot of talking, you know, so say late last year, I started a new relationship and the dynamic that I was entering into with that person really scared me and was triggering me because of past stuff of a similar example. And so I had to have a lot of very early conversations with that person being like, I know this is really new, but I'm really freaked out because of all of this stuff that had happened before. And that was actually amazing because they like really heard me and really understood that and were really reassuring. And so that's kind of how I tend to navigate

feeling safe within relationships. And Nadi, what about you? I guess the question was about how do I feel emotionally safe in a relationship? Yeah, so really thinking about kind of how you draw your boundaries when it comes to relationships. How do you draw your boundaries? Well, like I said earlier and I said this before and some people don't understand what I mean by this is like, oh sometimes you need to like break boundaries to make them. And I think that's like I'm taking that from when I first started to think about being Polyarmus and I had a partner at the time. And what we decided to do, we had no idea what our boundaries were. So we're like, hey, you go and do your thing.

I'll go mad to do it, we'll talk about it and when we start to feel uncomfortable, emotionally unsafe then we'll go, hey, actually, that's not what we're like and that's not how we were designing our new version of our relationship and to do that we had to go and figure out what hurt and what didn't because you weren't sure like and I guess with this person like if you, to say I guess emotionally safe

I guess you already know what it feels like to be emotionally unsafe so trying to figure out what like knowing what that is and the person that you're embarking on a relationship with or dating or whatever, being able to communicate what those things are, are like highlighting when those things could potentially come up. And also sometimes in relationships, like you might feel like unsafe and then you might be able to work through it. Sometimes it's just a normal part of being in friendship, relationship, romantic or otherwise,

that you're going to hurt each other, you're going to annoy each other, you're going to make each other feel safe, like you're going to cross boundaries and then you're going to work it out. That's such a good point. And I'm just thinking, as we, I know we keep banging about tonight about communication, but it's really interesting because going through all these questions, a lot of them, the answer kind of is really communication. It is a lot for you kind of asking, you know, how do I approach this

and how do I, you know, say that I want this? How do I do this in my partner? I'm like, it really is. But I, and this isn't to criticize anyone. It's just say it's so interesting to me because we're all, I think, finding it really difficult to communicate and to be honest with people that we are with sexually in a partnership with. And it is, you know, we reflected on this earlier.

It's almost like this kind of fear of being honest and fear of being open. And I sometimes, I'm thinking kind of how do I feel, you know, in relationship sometimes? I think it's, I'm almost scared of what that honest, of what that person will say if they're being honest. I'm scared of what it'll say about me. And I think sometimes, I'd rather just like actually pretend things are fine and not really, you know, have that conversation because I'm so scared. that it will like, it'll shake something in me and make me kind of lose kind of some sense of self, which is an interesting thing in itself

because that's, again, that's work you have to do on your own. I mean, yeah, that's it is practice, it's work, but I think maybe what's kind of coming out of this is that we need communication workshops. Like, people need to practice it in a safe and caring environment to be able to enact that in their real life because it does take work and practice. And if you're scared to do that in real life

with these real life relationships, like, then yeah so it probably probably already exists I don't know of it but yeah well sex talks communication workshops will be coming your way I was also just going to say that sometimes we're not sometimes we're really so unused to hearing

certain truthful statements coming out of our mouths about relationships that we don't know how to even get the thought from the head out of the mouth So even like practicing in front of a mirror saying truthful things is just so useful because then you get used to what it actually sounds like coming out of your mouth. Yeah, that is such a... Actually, I was talking about this for the sex therapist.

Kate Moore, actually, I mentioned earlier. And the way she described sex therapy, which I really resonated with, was it's like kind of, you get to exercise, it's like kind of muscle memory. So when you get into the habit of talking about sex, every week you're going into the therapy room and you're saying, okay, I've got nothing to talk about this week except I feel shit about this, this happened, blah, blah,

and you're really learning to communicate and to talk about sex really openly. It acts like a muscle, you exercise that muscle and it becomes easier thereafter to be able to actually communicate in, well, you hope, still working on it, in that moment to then be able to communicate more honestly when you're actually having sex.

So I think actually practicing in the mirror, I kind of love that. Or writing it down, letters, letters, letters. Okay, we've got another question here. How do I communicate a desire to revert away from polyamory knowing that you, knowing you want that person monogamously whilst respecting them and what they want? Communication. It's communication. It happened to me, like, my partner a few years ago was having really bad mental health issues at the time and wanted to. close the relationship while

they dealt with that and that was completely okay with me so that's how they communicated is like I'm really struggling right now and I'm starting to feel and think things that I used to think for like jealousy anger and stuff like that so like while I go through therapy while you hold my hand through this and then yeah

it was like four or five months and then they came out the other side and then we opened up a relationship back up again so I think it's a lot of shame attached it when they came and spoke to me about it they were like I feel shame that I'm asking you to even you know be monogamous for this period of time like and I guess like I guess a lot in this culture is like you know polyamory good monogamy bad like and it's just like not the case just depends how you're

practicing it I think that wasn't the question it was like how do you talk about it right but that was just one example that I did but I think that's a and actually that segues so perfectly to this next question which I think ties in the nicely to that previous one to what extent do you think the journey from monogamy is an escalator in itself and the reason I think that's connected to what you just said is that I think I guess almost in the like feeling trapped not being able to have those conversations feeling shame

and guilt now attached to the monogamy it's almost become those same kind of power structures are being replicated those same kind of ideas around what's okay what's not okay are being replicated but just within a different framework so any answers on that

can it become an escalator to the same to what extent do you think the journey from monogamy is an escalator in itself. So there's certain steps and stages that we're expected to go on to get to polyamory. Polyamory. Maybe, I don't know. I'm just trying to think.

It's not the same. It's not the, not everyone has the same journey, you know, through to polyamory. So, but, you know, there is that classic, like, opening up a relationship and starting out just having sex with other people and having tons of rules and then realizing half those rules don't really work and that maybe you also have feelings for other people and then so maybe there is an escalator hey you know so yeah just about knowing there's tons of different escalators maybe that you can just get on and on that escalator doesn't have a power structure attached to it you know like

oh yeah that's a good point and actually segue nicely like these segues um this person's asked how do you define and navigate the life milestones um attached to mononormativity so as we think about this specific escalator with all the power structures attached to it, particularly as a solo polyamorous, where the traditional milestones are so, I can't read that, geared towards monogamy. I would love to answer that. Please do. Excellent.

I've been having conversations with my sister about this. And so I have this Kaylee Daniels dated project that is kind of on hiatus. now but I ran two events for that and it was kind of a celebration of like the project to me and my creativity and it meant getting friends in a room where you could have a drink and some food and just a nice time and I think it's really important to create your own tradition so when my book comes out I'm going to do a not I mean it depends how much money I have but I'm definitely going to do a launch and like put on like champagne for people that I'm going to have to pay for because it's really important for me to create my own traditions.

And like even things like Christmas, it's like, okay, so you can kind of break away from family or whatever in one year. Do Christmas like friends or like chosen family Christmas to just start creating your own milestone. It's not even like it's like celebrating them properly. Because I think actually Ruby mentioned this earlier to me. We were talking as you came in. about some sort of point at you as conveniently as you are whispering

actually. I just whispered the same thing. Oh really? Okay, fantastic. So Ruby will say so Ruby has a fantastic podcast in touch is that right, in touch which one episode is on non-monogamy and is absolutely brilliant.

Actually that's how I found the wonderful but it's really, really good podcast series. Everyone definitely go and listen to it. But Ruby was saying to me as we came in that the podcast launched, she had a big party for it was amazing. You described it as being almost like your kind of solo wedding,

kind of a bit celebrating you. And I thought, actually, yeah, that's exactly what these sorts of things should be. And I think it's just that we put such an onus. Like, if I have to see, no offense, we just got engaged, one more like, and I can't even do it. I'm like, how have you got it there? And it's like, oh, the way. Great.

And that's really fantastic. And that happiness is wonderful. But let's also have that same level of jubilation given to all the other achievements that we make. You get that new job you love, you start becoming a ceramicist and create a great pot. I'll be seeing me post that soon. It was terrible and I can't post it. But just actually creating these kind of these moments and these celebrations around things that aren't the wedding, the marriage, the 1.2 children or whatever it may be, I think is so important. Do you have any kind of hot tips? Honestly, the exact same. Just to create your own,

but also like small things do you know I mean I left the house today you know I put on clothes like celebrate those things as small things as well like it doesn't even have to be a milestone of like even you know because still getting a job and stuff like that

as traditional even like you know your ceramic pot that you don't think that looks good like our hobbies don't need you look good nothing you know I'm so proud of that pot don't you worry exactly you know I mean like it's actually a milk jug now so and if the world

if the world doesn't celebrate it like you know make yourself celebrate it and the people like around you that you love and about you because they will you know and go on solo romantic trips away I that would be my oh my god take me back to Rome with me celebrating me cooking for me I didn't cook um right actually we're now conscious oh time okay so we're gonna do one final question to actually know what we've got so many more fabulous questions here which I think I might actually get um answer a couple of these on Instagram so you can follow up after this event um but just to close what I think has been an utterly

fascinating conversation, which I think has, for me anyway, and I hope for you as well, actually opened up as many questions and curiosities as it has answered them. And that to me is always the most fruitful conversations I have. So I really, really appreciate everything that's been said tonight. But as we end up, close up the conversation, I wonder if we could just end on each of you telling us if there's kind of one myth or misconception around polyamory that you would like to take this opportunity to bust as we exit. What has been a fantastic conversation. Emma, go to you first. To my left. I don't think I wrote anything down for this one. Bronwyn, yeah, I'll give you time to think. I think it's, so most of the time when people

say to me, oh, I'd love to be polyamorous, but it's because it'd be, but I get jealous or something along those lines and yeah that happens and don't be scared of it like that's like it's not something to be absolutely terrified of I know this is a whole other conversation that jealousy is a big kind of conversation people want to have about polyamory but like just don't make that the reason why you don't do something in your life you know if there's something that you genuinely want to be doing don't make this fear that you will have feelings about something the reason that you don't do it because you can navigate that stuff all of us here have been navigating it so yeah I love that um I guess like if I think a bust a myth that I busted myself like

um and I think um was that thinking that uh polyamory was just like a white middle class thing which I mean like statistically it is you know but um if we look at it from like a decolonized like perspective like um there's lots of like black and brown communities like across the world who have been living different types of polyamorous lifestyles in lots of different ways that was completely normal before colonisation. So just really speaking to ancestrally

about desire and relationships and sex and not thinking it's this like poster child of like one white skinny non-disabled guy and two white skinny non-disabled women you know like it's definitely like more than that. So yeah.

That's brilliant. Woo, another room, love that. Namas for you. Oh, I don't have anything pithy to say. It doesn't need to be pithy. Yeah, just, I'm not pithy. Just if you want to try it, try it. That was pithy.

If you want to try it, just do it. Don't reference Nike quote at the end of that. That's not a good way to wrap things up. Thank you so much to my wonderful panel for being so generous in your answers. And just, as I said, I, feel there's so much more I want to go away and read and think and talk about. And I love that. My brain has been expanded and I'm so grateful to all of you. So thank you so much. And grateful to everyone here who has been so wonderful listening for the evening. And also for

answering such great questions. As I said, I've got a couple more and I will look to try and get them answered on Instagram to follow up this event. And just thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for listening today. And I hope to see you at the next Sex Talks of event at the London Edition. Keep an eye on my personal Instagram page, which is at M Louise Boynton for all updates.