Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - Sex Education with Laurie Nunn and Emma's sex therapist, Aleks (part 2)

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

The fourth and final season of Sex Education is out now, and while we’re already mourning the fact that Otis and Eric won’t be returning to our tv screens (at least not together), the show’s finale gave us all the feels.  In the most recent live recording of the Sex Talks podcast, Emma was joined by Sex Education’s creator, Laurie Nunn, to discuss the making of our fave tv show (listen to part 1 for this interview). In part 2 of this recording, Emma and Laurie are joined by Emma’s sex therapist, Aleks, to chat through some key themes explored in the show (the finger-up-the-butt-scene, for starters) and for an extra juicy audience q&a. This episode was sponsored by The Knude Society, aka the female-led sexual pleasure company on a mission to help you enjoy your body, in whatever way feels right for you.  The Knude society has designed two vibrators, as well as a water-based lube, that can help you do exactly that.  Get 15% off when you shop with the Knude society using the code SEXTALKS15. 

Okay, so how the next bit is going to go? This is nice. This is the kind of fluid, flexi, Q&A. We just ask and talk and whatever section. So what we'll do is we're going to have a couple quick questions which I'm going to put to my sex therapist who brought back my orgasm. So we're going to put a couple questions about the kind of themes

that brought up in the show and I want us to kind of talk and Laurie will come in a little bit on two. And then I will run around and collect your questions because I was just thinking, as we continue talking, You might have more questions coming to your mind. So then after about 10, 50 minutes, I'll collect all your fabulous questions. And then we will do the anonymous Q&A to finish us off with a bang. Okay.

Alex. Hello. So do you want to introduce yourself actually before, officially? Sure. Hello. My name is Alex. My pronouns are she, her. And I'm a sex relationships and body image therapist based in Sydney.

but I do online like telehealth which is how we ended up doing therapy sessions I have a dog named Roger and I believe that is all that you really need to know about me and she brought up my orgasm that's all you need to know so Laurie and I were just chatting earlier about different themes in the show and one that came up but I think is obviously such a prominent theme

especially in the final series is regarding queerness and religion so obviously we see with Ericter's character He's really grappling with his queerness and the joy he's feeling it with his new group of friends alongside feeling like that's a part of himself he can't bring into the church, which isn't welcome in the church. But the church, meanwhile, is such a huge part of who he is, his family, his sense of community, and you really see him going back and forth in this. We spoke about this a little bit earlier and we had a quick catch-up call. And you mentioned that this is something that you see quite a lot in the therapy room.

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I definitely think the storyline of Eric is something that I see a lot in sex therapy sessions with clients, but especially the young queer people that I work with, where there are these conflicting intersections of identity, one being their sexuality or gender identity, and the other being their faith or spirituality. It also happens with a lot of straight people too, the influence of religion on sexuality, but it is incredibly common, unfortunately, with a lot of queer people in their upbringings as well.

I mean, I was a staunch Christian growing up, and I was like, no sex before marriage, and no drinking and no drugs and no fun, and then I lost faith. And I found all of those things. Very young, actually. I was only 12. How then does that antagonism between,

faith and sexual identity and sexuality manifest in the context of the bedroom? I think the, unfortunately, the way it manifests is shame, which is really so sad because spirituality can be a part of a sexual experience as well, which I know sounds kind of strange, but like... God is always watching, woo-hoo! Definitely not like that. I meant more like, I don't know, like sometimes, like I would consider other spiritual things like going to a museum and appreciating like art and beauty and mindfulness or like meditating and kind of finding a stillness within yourself. And I think sex is a space where you sometimes experience that spiritual doesn't make sense.

And so I think it's really sad that for some people, religion creates an association of shame and sexuality. And so really what we're working with is a lot of the underlying shame that seeps into the sexual experience. And how do you begin helping someone overcome that shame? I think, and I think this is what Eric does really well, is that what we, we talk about in sex therapy is recognizing that you're never truly alone in your experience. Like, there's always someone out there who is experiencing something similar, you know. And so a lot of insects therapy, we look at like, well, how do you stay connected to your spirituality?

Where is there a safe space to explore that? Yeah, and I think it's a, and also, like, in what other ways or mediums can you connect to faith and spirituality in a safe way? And Laurie, you mentioned earlier that that particular storyline was one that because of how passionately people in the writer's room felt about it, it was one that there was kind of a push and pill in terms of how that story arc should be developed. What did people want to see captured in that storyline? Were there other kind of ideas of how Eric should explore this facet of herself

and be received by the church that were also kind of competing in that moment? I think some people felt strongly that Eric should really just say, fuck you to the church and really close the door on it. And I think for some people, I think that is completely the right choice and like the healthiest choice. But one of the things that came up in that room, but also to be honest, like since Series 1, so in all the different rooms that we've done,

And we've had various writers who queer but also used to be religious or still had like religious ties. And I think the biggest thing that came up was just this really extreme feeling of grief that they've had to cut out this huge part of themselves. And I think also for a lot of people, it's culture as well. And like the church is actually family and heritage and history and culture. and you can't just, it's very difficult for some people to just like hack that away. And so I felt like it was maybe a braver story to tell to really make Eric sort of say to his church,

like, I don't want to have to cut you out. And like why should I have to change? Like I think you need to change. And obviously like our show is quite aspirational and it's not really set in a real world and it's, you know, so we can kind of indulge, like, the fantasy of that because I don't think that is the case for a lot of people, but I really felt like, I just felt like Eric needed to speak his truth,

but also say, like, I don't want to turn my back on this either. Well, I think he just showcased how, as you said there, how important both facets of his identity are and how it wasn't just that easy, you know, maybe it's easy to say from the side, like come on just say fuck them but actually it was such a huge part of his life and his mom was so you know who he cares about so much was obviously so it was so important to her and so I think that antagonism was really highlighted and like how profoundly difficult that must be there always and I think especially for people that LGBTQ a plus community I imagine that constant perception that you need to constantly be compromising and like hiding bits of yourself and constantly adapting to fit into a very heteronormative society and all the kind of small little tears that must make to you over time. So I think that was

done kind of really beautifully. Alex, we spoke before as well about the way in which the show explores self-pleasure and ranking. Lots and lots of good old wanking. And particularly in Amy's character, I think the

arc of her relationship to self-pleasure is a really fun one. I think when you first see her in season four, she's just furiously. blanking and then makes a note of it in her diary and what did you make I mean watching that I obviously

look you were the person that taught me of the power and importance of self-pleasure in the context of sex therapy room you're the one who said to me you know this is something that is about how you connect your body you're the one who told me that I had to make time to seduce myself and it wasn't something that you can

choose to do inside is like not important It was a really fundamental part of my overall health and well-being. So what did you make of the way in which self-pleasure was explored throughout the show? I absolutely loved it. I thought it was such a good, even throughout the whole series, the relationship to self-pleasure, it was kind of different for different characters. I thought Amy was really great, especially after a soul. It was like a reclaiming of sexuality and sexual pleasure,

which I think is really important for a lot of my clients as well. that's such an important, I guess, part of recovery. I just, I also, that scene of her just like testing all the toys out, I actually do tell people to set aside time and just masturbate without an agenda to orgasm because it's such a great way of getting to know your body and understanding, I think a lot of people put orgasm on a pedestal and try to like actively work toward like coming all the time. And it's like, relax, you're not like an orgasm machine, you know? So I absolutely loved how self-pleasure was just such a big theme

throughout sex education because, again, that's something that I think a lot of people don't get to explore for different reasons, so it's really nice to have it, like, normalized. And then it can be really fun, but also it can be done with other people. Like Otis and Maeve mutually masturbating during a long-distance relationship was a really good example of another benefit of self-pleasureing. is that you can kind of share it with other people and it be really nice.

I think that I often suggest mutual masturbation for clients who are just like, you know, I kind of just don't want to be touched by anyone else but I still want to be intimate. I'm like, what about this, you know? So yeah. I find mutual masturbation conceptually challenging

so many people that I, not so many, a lot of people that I sleep with, majority always want to like, wank together. they want me to use a vibrator in front of them and I'm like no I feel like so like that is my do you need a session doll I think I do I think we need to unpack that I do I feel really like embarrassed I'm like I'm literally like lying there completely naked their dicks out my boobs hanging here and I'm like no you can't possibly see me masturbate that is far too intimate for this situation so maybe I've got a lot to learn maybe we do need another session what is it important but I think

look I mean obviously each to their own but I think what you've touched on there is like the intimacy and vulnerability of feeling like literally like laid bare in front of someone it can be intimidating but it can also be really intimate and delicious and yummy I think it's so I did when I'm asked about to really concentrate and usually I have all these scenes in my head that I get revert back to and I imagine if I have someone there I'm like and not to be a bitch

but like the scenes in my head are going to be ten times better so I feel like they're going to kind of like grant my style there's nothing wrong with fantasy you know it's just maybe multitasking I don't know let's talk about finger up the butt

oh yes because Laurie this was great. Jackson having finger up the butt. We, any time I ask any sex therapist or sex educator at sex talks, what

taboo they want to bust around sex. They always say, we very often say, pegging, anal play, particularly for men. What do you make of the Jackson anal play scene? Well, I thought it was amazing.

I thought it, I mean, obviously it touched on exploring men's pleasure in different ways but also touched on consent which was super important what i loved about the scene was when jackson questions his sexual identity because of liking a certain sexual behavior when actually obviously we kind of know that lacking a certain sexual behavior doesn't determine your sexual identity it's just a preference so he based just for anyone who hasn't maybe seen it he finger up his butt he comes who loves it and it's like wow this is a whole whole new dimension of sexual pleasure and then fast forward one day a few days later and he's saying

does this mean i'm queer am i gay now yeah and i think what it also did was actually highlight how the patriarchy hurts everyone because it obviously sex education has looked a lot at female pleasure and liberation empowerment autonomy but then this was a really good example of actually how men's pleasure is also negatively affected by the patriarchy and certain restrictions around sexual expression that we condition men to, I guess, have and then question their sexuality because they wanted a finger up the bun, no doll.

Like, just enjoy, you know? Laurie, tell us about the conversation that took place in the writer's room as the finger up the butt scene was developed. So we've been trying to put that in since series one. It's one like every year basically we have like a list of sex story of the week

ideas and we like add to it all the time and if we're having like a really difficult story day we'll just be like oh let's just do a sex story of the week because it's fun you know and since series one finger up the bum has just been like right in the middle and we've just never found like the right character to explore it with or the right like time

and I think it originally it came from we had a writer in the room a gay male writer and he basically said that all of his straight friends would get drunk and then ask him like about figure up the bum and whether that made them gay and he was just like no and like why are you asking me that's like weird and also like very problematic

so yeah it really came out of that and we just found that very funny and yeah I just think it should be destigmatized and you know Jackson was the the perfect character to do it with I think actually he really was and yeah finger up the bum and loop

those are two great sex tits I'd say Laurie and then finally just one more final point and then I want to come and collect your questions so if you're still ruminating of anything you want to ask make sure you jot it down now is I'll come and collect questions in T minus two minutes but one last thing I wanted to touch on was

around communication and well communication and consent because I think Alex when we did sex therapy one thing you said to me in pretty much every single session was communication communication communication is key I'm still bad at communicating

but I've improved I've improved it was a low bar it's gone from silence to a yeah I like that that is nice but let's talk about how communication is explored in the show because I think even in that scene with Jackson, you mentioned before how

it also has a really important lesson around consent because even though Jackson loves finger up the butt, the person who's doing it with doesn't ask him beforehand if she can put his finger up the butt. And fast forward to the next scene and they're exploring again, he says, actually can we practice enthusiastic consent? And you then see a really hot sex scene play out in which they're both saying, can I do this? Can I do that? And it's hot. And it really struck me

because I think often it's sex talks in the anonymous Q&A question I will get asked or the panel will get asked how do you ask the consent how do you bring in consent into sex without it ruining the mood and I'm always really struck like that because consent is really hot

it's really sexy when someone asks and when someone says what they want isn't it absolutely I like to reframe this as like an erotic conversation opposed to it's not like all right this evening I would enjoy penetrating you and, you know what I mean? It's like, it doesn't have to be...

People dick and me suck my nipple and let's get on with it. Yeah, like it's not like you're laying out like a business plan for a sexual experience, you know? Like it's, I think a lot of people assume that they have to know exactly what they want. And actually I say, well, you know, and I think Mave and Otis do it in like the first or second episode where they're doing the long distance like phone sex and Mave will say like, what are you thinking about and he's like I'm thinking about you and then she'll be like okay like what are you thinking about like me and he's like oh I'm thinking about touching you touching me where on your lips your neck and then it becomes this like erotic conversation and that's a

really good example of the kind of consent that what it can sound like is like oh I would like to touch you here I'm noticing like I don't know like you look really beautiful I want I can see your nipples are really hard I want to lick them like whatever it is it's it doesn't have to be you know what I mean? It can be quite organic and more so just like a, in the moment, what am I liking about this situation?

And I think that's what allows it to become really erotic. And I also really like with them how they found their sexual language that worked for them. So you know when initially Mave sends like a sexy pick and you have these poignant scenes of Otis trying to take a sexy pick with his flaccid penis

and his shape on it just. And I think actually, you know, we talk about the body pressure that women are undone we definitely are I mean God knows I mean women have been kind of pressurized as to how we should look and what size we should be for time immemorial but I think in that scene you really

capture actually the pressure that's also really placed on men especially around sex around performativity and having you know and then his friends see the flaccid penis and everyone's like why weren't you hard which is a good point it's a good point of feedback but

I mean come on if you're going to send a dick pick make it hard But, sorry, what I mean that is that they initially, they struggle with, when he's trying to take these pictures and, you know, leaving Maeve hanging, they're trying to find their kind of sexual rhythm at a distance and it's just not comfortable. So when you hear them on the phone, when you see them on the phone together, it's like they found their comfort zone, they found their erotic language. And I like that they had to kind of struggle a bit to find it, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that's even a really telling sort of, like an insight into what it all. be like is that yeah sometimes it's a little awkward and clunky at first but you you'll get the hang

of it and I think you'll get over like the nerves around starting to speak more openly about what it is that you find erotic yes because I actually think one of the biggest struggles I've had around sex is hearing myself speak and as it's like a dissonance between feeling like when I are in the context of sex saying sexual things I feel I'm I kind of recoil at hearing my own voice be sexual because it's like I feel embarrassed for myself as being a sexual person and it's taken a lot of like say a lot of like practice I even started like recording myself saying some sexy things to try and get used to it and then listen to it back which is kind of weird but kind of okay I'd kind of recommend it but it's embarrassing if someone walks in you I am going to

collect in your questions now because I am dying to know what you want to know and put it to my wonderful panel so Alex I'm going to keep you up on stage as well and so you two stay well you can move around a little bit but I'm coming to collect your questions now so don't go anywhere time for a quick ad break to remind you of this week's podcast sponsor the need society aka the female led sexual pleasure company on a mission to help you enjoy your body in whatever way feels right for you self-pleasure is key to getting to know your body better and the needs society have designed two vibrators as well as a water-based lobe that can help you do exactly that the leaden vibrator which is the one I recently tried out bends in halves you can use it to

stimulate yourself both internally and externally. Excellent if you're looking to explore that G-spot. I love this vibrator and think you will too. Get 15% off when you shop with the Needs Society using the code Sex Talks 15. I include the link in the show notes for your ease. Okay, back to the show. We only have about 25 minutes left or 20 minutes left. So that sounds like a long amount of time actually. I don't want to put that out there because then you might feel like you're a bit tired, but you're not. Okay, so. My boyfriend and I have been in a relationship for a year, but I also feel attracted to a woman. This person put those in air quotes.

I like that. How do I handle the situation and explore my sexuality? Alex, I feel you can get on this one. This is really common, I think, when you're queer but in a straight passing relationship. So straight passing, meaning like, you are in a relationship that society or outsiders would deem as heterosexual, even though within your own individual. identity that's not how you don't identify as heterosexual does that make sense great so I think what this is about is having visibility within your relationship feeling like your queerness has space in a straight passing relationship but also if that is something that you're willing to explore

to actually talk to your partner about it I think pretending it's not there it will just get louder and louder so to discuss it and perhaps discuss ways within which you can safely explore that is what I would suggest does that a hundred percent yeah also maybe it could be a matter of bringing somebody else in to the relationship maybe

exploring things on field what do you think oh no wait there was one I wanted to do before this oh yeah um Laurie what do you think sex education in school

should look like like like sex education in Moredale High well the sex education that I had at school was literally like taught by some very strange geography teacher who always the geography teachers they really get a hard deal like who just didn't who was who clearly just found it so painfully awkward

and just didn't really have any knowledge to like impart and also it was like gender divided which I also think is I don't know kind of have sex together So like, why make it divided when we learn about it? Yeah, so yeah, I don't know. I think, like, I feel like people, it should be incorporated in a way where people who are properly educated

are going to impart that information. And then, yeah, I guess in terms of the sex education that I had at school, just, like, actually learning about, like, your actual body and like the kind of how it actually works. I don't know. I just sort of feel like it's all just very glossed over. But I don't know exactly what it's like in schools now,

but I've heard some places are doing it better than others. Definitely. I remember my sex education. I remember walking into science lesson and there was just a big screen with a baby's head coming out at a woman's vagina and we were all like, oh my God, I'm getting a C-section. But it's, yeah, it was horrifying.

This is an interesting question. The teens in sex ed have more sophisticated language to discuss their problems than most people I know in their 30s. It is true. How did you balance the show's idealistic mature conversations about conflict while all the while keeping it relatable? Yeah, I mean, and definitely as this show has progressed, like I think now it's almost like they're all like little sex therapists. But that sort of was intentional. the idea being that the more you have open conversations about sex and about yourself, like it will start to, you know, kind of bleed out into the wider community.

We work with a lot of really amazing sex educators and consultants, and I think it's really just the balancing act of trying to make sure that the dialogue still feels, you know, fun and, like, you know, in character, but also that we're getting across, like, information that's actually helpful and like the correct wording of things and stuff like that. So it's a real, yeah, it's a real collaboration between like the writers

and the sex educators that we work with. I love that. I've just seen a question which I've lost but I really wanted to ask it because I want to know the answer to this too. I'm going to remember it because... Do you need a hand, mate? Okay.

There is, this is, honestly, I could have written this. There is a popular myth of the longer the sex lasts the better. But I've experienced that sometimes when it lasts long, I enjoy it less. Is this common? Yes. Oh my God. Sometimes you're like that being like, make it end.

Yeah, so is this common? And how would you deal with that with the loss of pleasure slash sensation, but still be mindful of your partner's pleasure. asking for a friend so first of all who in the fuck taught you that sex had to go for a long time and where did you learn that like or anyone yes porn how realistic is porn they don't edit anything it's always like a long one shot yeah right yeah seems really realistic. Porn is a movie edited

about sex. It's not real. So if your expectations of sex is based on porn, it's like being like, wow, Mission Impossible where Tom Cruise jumps out of a helicopter. I can do that. It's like, no bitch, you can't, okay? Like,

it's the fucking movie, is relax, okay? So this expectation that sex should go for a really long time is a complete myth. lube is really important no matter how long you're having sex for if there's any kind of penetration use lube and however much you think you need double it okay yeah I think listen to your body if your body goes yeah I'm fucking checked out I'm overstimulated this hurts stop

don't make your body go through any more touch than it's willing to go through because you end up kind of dishonoring your body's needs and your body it kind of creates this distrust that you're not you're not really honoring and advocating for your body's needs. Does that make sense? But what about if you're waiting for them to come? Then you say, I need to take a break. What if you don't want to go back after the break? Then you say, I need to stop. You say, I need to stop. Or you say, can we like come back to this another time? Or you go, hey, do you want to finish yourself off? Or actually, like, this is just something I need to stop doing right now. What if they say they only come from penetration? Then you say, then go fucking find someone else

to do that with. You know what I mean? I always tell... Because honestly, honestly, if you're fucking someone who goes, I don't care that you're in pain and tired, I need to come, do you really want to be fucking this person? What if they have really good abs? Emma, you need another session.

I think we've all asked to change that. We've discussed this. You know the answer. You know the answer. Yeah, I know. Stop making excuses and listen to your body. I know, I know deep down the answer, but sometimes it's hard in the moment. Laurie, this next person has asked, do you tackle female pleasure in the show?

The answer obviously is yes. So I actually would kind of slightly reframe this and say, kind of what element or what kind of storyline in the show that explores female pleasure do you feel most proud of or do you kind of most enjoy making? Oh God, there's like quite a lot of it. A lot of female pleasure. Obviously, I think Amy, Amy's journey really from series one where she's very much not enjoying long, bad sex because she thinks she's in a porn film and then we sort of watch her over the four series

kind of really getting to know her own body and what turns her on. I really liked in series four that we actually introduced the sex toys, so her using the sex toys and then sending a sex toy to Mave just because I think it is just de-stigmatising. And I think it's another thing that I wish that I had been taught when I was younger, which is just girls' wank and it's normal and it's healthy and it's fine. And I think there's so much, particularly for women,

I think there's so much shame around it still. So yeah, that was something that I felt proud that we kind of de-stigmatized or tried to destigmatized. I was watching back over, I think you might have been season two, but where she's having sex the previous boyfriend and she keeps hitting him to make it stop and then be like, oh, I did that by my mistake. And then like hits him again.

He's like, oh, didn't mean to. Just so like resonate with that, making excuses to stop. This is a fun one. I actually am always very curious about this, but then I do know and then I get curious again because it's funny. What is squirt made of which hole does it come out of?

because so many men who sexed are obsessed with telling you they're going to make you squirt have you yet to meet a man who made me squirt it's a real thing isn't it squirting yeah yeah I only recently I only recently squirted for the first time and it I almost got like carpal tunnel from it

I swear to God I was like someone someone sent me like one of those big metal enjoy toys. Anyway, they're just like a, your faces are like, but essentially I was just like going to town on myself and it took so long but I eventually did it. And squirting is like as you have a gland just inside your, um, your vaginal canal. And so everyone thinks it's urine, but it's not urine. It's also quite a contentious subject. A lot of people argue that it is urine. But it's

essentially like a secretion. It's completely normal. Sometimes people will just have a little bit of liquid that comes out. So it comes technically from like your vaginal opening. It's not from your urethra. And sometimes people are absolute gushes. My best friend is a gusher. I've asked her to masturbate in front of me just so I can see it. But she is yet to consent and I totally respect that. But I will hold out for the day she decides to let me. watch because I'm so curious. So, yeah, a different, different volumes of liquid can come out of you.

Yeah. Hope that answers your question. Fellow, I was about say fellow squirter, sadly, not me. Laurie, this is an interesting one. The actual sex scenes in the show are very graphic, more so than any other teen show. How important do you

think it is for young people to watch this to see other genitals as well? Not just boobs with two exclamation points. Yeah, I think the sex scenes in the show, we basically, we have a rule when we're writing, which is we try not to have a sex scene that doesn't push the story forward in some way or tell us something new about the characters because I didn't really want to have sex scenes in the show that are just there to kind of be titillating or gratuitous.

And we work with intimacy coordinators on the show. And we have done since series ones, that's a really essential part of the process. And I think it's something that, like, I wouldn't have wanted to make the show if we didn't have that in place. Because, you know, particularly when we started, a lot of our cast were very new actors. Some of them had, like, never been on a film set before. So suddenly they're in this, you know, incredibly, like, vulnerable situation. So it's really important that they are completely protected on set. but yeah I do think the sex scenes are also really essential to the show and I think that

you know if we're sort of if the heart of the show is saying like we need to be more honest and like roar and have these uncomfortable conversations and not be afraid to be awkward then we sort of have to be brave enough to like show it and and have it there but it's always an ongoing collaboration with the actors and the intimacy coordinators and making sure it's all yeah consensual and safe. you were the first show to have an, to implement intimacy coordinator, which has now become the norm in sex scenes. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, I think we were the first, we definitely were the first in the UK. I don't know elsewhere. And I think it is becoming more normal. There's been, again, like backlash. Like, there's been a lot of actors recently have, like, come out and been like, oh, it completely takes away from the spontaneity of the moment or whatever. But I just think that's bullshit, to be honest.

I'm just like, you know, I think we, you know, for years there's been, you know, you wouldn't have a, you wouldn't do a big fight scene without a fight coordinator. So why would you have a sex scene without somebody there to, you know, like, design it? It's not actual sex. And I've heard like real horror stories. So I think the ones, weirdly the ones that I find the most chilling is like directors who themselves find it so awkward that they just say to the actors, oh, you guys go. often figure it out and then we'll film it and that's like that is the most unsafe like situation to put anyone in and it just shouldn't taking no responsibility at all as the person who is directing the show yeah it's just delegating all responsibility to everyone around them

asking for a friend lull how this isn't me this is this person but also me um how do i implement a boundary with someone, how do I implement a boundary with someone I'm dating when their communication style is giving major anxiety, is giving me major anxiety, it's been five dates. Alex, top tip. So, boundaries is one of my favorite topics, as you know. I think when you go to set a boundary, there are different kinds of boundaries that you can have. So it really depends, you know, is it an emotional, sexual, physical, intellectual time, or

material boundary. If it is an emotional boundary, I think it's really important to, like, you have a pretty straightforward way of just saying, like, when this, when X happens, I feel Y, so I need this. And when you set a boundary, it's really important that you maintain it. So if someone goes, oh, but this, and you go, okay, never mind, that's not you setting a boundary. That's you neglecting a boundary. So it's also really important to set a boundary and learn to maintain. it and have a consequence for it. So, hey, if you don't respect my time, I can't really hang out with you anymore.

You know, or if you can't hold space for me emotionally, I'm going to have to, like, not date you or whatever it is. Have a consequence to your boundaries to show people that they can't fuck around, you know? So true, so hard. This is tough love. For Laurie, when writing something as long-running as sex education, how do you continue to write the story

you want to tell and not what others, audience, studio, et cetera, say you should be telling? Yeah, it's, I mean, it's definitely a challenge. I think one of the things that, for me, was, like, quite overwhelming when, when series one came out was just the, because everything, obviously, we're all so online now, it's like, there's just a lot of opinions and just a lot of noise. So, like, when the series comes out, it's like everyone, like, everyone, like, has an opinion and then can actually contact you to like tell you their opinion, their feedback. And I'm like, I'm a pretty sensitive person. So I think I found that quite, it was just

like, oh, sensory overload. So I've really had to get to a point where I'm quite, like I don't have any social media and I'm just very like brutal about just trying to keep that out because I don't think it makes for good storytelling. I think it starts to become. a bit like choose your own adventure like you you know I think one one person one voice sort of has to steer the ship otherwise it will just start to feel like not authentic but it's definitely a challenge because you know like particular I don't know there's a whole thing with like rotus versus motus it's like rubian otis versus mavenotus and those people they're like they call them shippers and they're very loud and like yeah they they're they're

Very passionate. It's like Haley Bieber versus Selena Gomez, everyone's. Tensions running high. How much do you read the press around the show, have you, over the years? I definitely read, you know, like when the reviews come out and like the think pieces, I definitely do read it. I know some people say, oh, like, don't engage, but I think, I secretly think that everybody probably secret, like, does.

But also I think with this show, because. it's the subject matter is quite topical and quite current I think it would be a disservice not to sort of engage in the conversation and sort of see how people are responding to it and some of the think pieces like even some of the critiques are sometimes really interesting where they'll be like oh like we wish that you told the story more in this way because of this this and this and I often find that quite like at first I'm like oh painful and then I'm like oh interesting yeah and have you found that actually kind of been helping shape writing in the future in a future series previously we i'm trying to think an example so i think in series two

we had an asexual character who was just like a story of the week and then we there was some think pieces around that that were you know basically like this is great representation but she's not like she's only in it for one episode and then she disappears and really at that point I think we were like oh we really want to have more ace representation in the show but it was about trying to find like the right time for that and the right character and we we eventually were able to do that in series four so we definitely do like you know take things on board just yeah not everything you took everything on board would become quite a kind of calamitous kind of endeavor final question because we are about to run time maybe we'll do two more there's so many great

Thank you all so much. Oh, it's a good one. How, or no, I like this one. Okay, both. In your professional experience, is sexual attraction slash sexual chemistry something that can be worked on between two people if it wasn't there initially? It's a pretty good one. It's a really good one. Yes, I think it can be worked on. I think it's really subjective, though. So I'm going to speak really generally. I think that attraction comes from making an effort in different ways, whether that is on like physical appearance or investing in yourself and your hobbies. I think there's also a sense of like we need space away. Like we lose attraction if we're too immersed or enmeshed with someone else almost like too familiar or too disconnected so it's and what i mean by effort is

kind of finding that middle ground whatever that looks like like i said it's so subjective because attraction again is like what you all find attractive will differ um i also think like a lot of time okay a couple things one i have never initially been such attracted to the people i've ended up dating I found them actually sexually repellent at first not because they have made unwanted moves on me and I've been like ugh because that would be bad and non-consensual but more that I just haven't seen them as a sexual being at all

and I've been like looked at them and maybe found out that they fancy me and I'm like ego boosted but no and then we've ended up getting to know each other better and suddenly this like surge of sexual attraction really does evolve for me personally and then over time eventually they break my heart and I'm like what the fuck I didn't even fancy

you and now look at me crumbling in front of you wishing you would just love me back but I do also think that the people that we can the people that we do initially find sexually attractive often that can come from lust and toxicity and I read something the other day I wrote about in my news letter which you should all sign up to which I'll talk about the end is about intensity over intimacy and a psychologist was talking to a woman the protagonist of the book and she had been an alcoholic. And so if anyone who's experienced any sort of addiction or I think eating disorder falls into the same camp, you could be really inclined towards intense situations, intense people like texting loads, beating up loads, it's really intense. And that can, I think you can

mistake that intensity for intimacy and sexual attraction. And actually it's just this kind of you're used to things being quite extreme. And actually it's a bit like what I said before that you said to me years ago, Laurie, about love feeling like it needs to be this battlefield, it's high emotions, high intensity. And actually I think when feelings develop over time, you're actually they're based on the person who you've got to know rather than the mirage of the person you think that they are. And I think that could be really powerful and I think really important to, I guess, to understand what you're initially attracted to in people so that you're not just maybe repeating previous patterns and being attracted to potentially quite toxic intense situation.

So I think 100% personally from anecdotal experience. Great. Cool. Whoever you like think you kind of maybe could possibly fancy as input. I treat after sex talk, suddenly you're going to be like, come hear you. They'll be like, what changed? Okay, great. Let's do one final question and then let's wrap up.

Oh, perfect question to end on. I love this. I wonder this all the time. How do you keep yourself open and vulnerable in the good way? Whilst also keeping yourself safe and at least semi-secure in dating and love. It is the perennial question. Laurie, do you have a top tip? I literally have no idea.

I wish I knew. I wish I knew to. Can you repeat the question again? Okay. How do you keep yourself open and vulnerable in the good way? I don't know what a bad way. I guess you could be abused. Whilst also, as in emotionally, not physically.

whilst also keeping yourself safe and at least semi-secure in dating and love? I think that when you're dating it's really important to recognise it's kind of just fucked up you know like it's a pretty wild wild west out there and so I think there's a sense of like learning to take everything with a grain of salt water off a duck's back you know like I think

recognising that not everything is personal that if someone's ghosted you it has more to do with them than it does to do with you. Even if you've dated someone for a few months and they've turned around and just been like, no, actually I don't really want anything here going, okay, that's fine. Because if I do want something more serious,

then I'm sure as hell not going to fucking chase you around if you're not emotionally available. So I think it's always worthwhile being vulnerable, but allowing yourself to experience rejection not to personalize those experiences, recognizing that you're worthy no matter what happens and that often when things yes woo we love like you are worthy and I think that sometimes when things don't work out I always consider it as like not like a failed relationship but just like a redirection toward where you probably need to be

so when people kind of treat you like shit it's like good you know because you're like okay I see who you are I'm gonna fucking bounce You know? I think also when you are single, I think you do just have to learn to heal faster. And I know that sounds kind of trite. That sounds like oversimplistic. I'm really trying to learn how to heal faster.

But I do think you need to get, as you say, it is really hard. And I think I've definitely struggled with feeling like every time I've made myself vulnerable to someone, I've opened myself up to someone new who I didn't use to fancy and then suddenly did. Then I and it ends and I really I stay down for a long time. I feel really

crushed and really hurt and really hung up on them. I do not bounce. I don't bounce. I bounce back again and again and again and again and again. And it's like this thing in my head I'm like I have to prove that I could I had almost like prove that I could have been that I could be the right person for them and I just end up in this kind of like

can't get them out of my head and I think what I'm learning and really trying to get better at is just getting better at moving on and as you say getting better at just picking myself back up and continuing moving and the more you date and the more you fall down and the more you get hurt

the more you realize that one there are a shit ton of people out there and two like as you say you are unbreakable you do survive even the worst heartbreak and the worst rejection and I've had some terrible rejections I mean awful and but you but you live and they're a great story afterwards

and it's my friend who's here in the audience Alia do it for the plot always do it for the plot and I keep thinking it's not a good plot if you keep bouncing back and it's not going anywhere it's a good plot if you bounce forward and go to someone else

it goes back to what you said about what you find attractive and chasing like toxic patterns because I think if you find yourself struggling with dating way like you're vulnerable but I keep getting really hurt or like I'm really traumatized by dating

it's like well how often have you neglected your own needs and kind of pursued someone that really wasn't actually respectful of you or respecting your boundaries or actually available to meet some of your needs. Like how much of the time, and I think this is really a question I'll ask myself when I'm dating, is like, is this person able to kind of meet me where I'm willing to be met? And if not, why am I sticking around? Because that's my choice.

And so I always have a choice here. do I want to bounce or do I want to bounce back and it can be really tempting to be like no I just have to get that validation or I need to like correct the story but it's often... Pure my daddy issues. Guess what? They won't be cured with that person. No. And I think it's at your own detriment

that that happens. So it's almost like learning to start to really staunchly advocate for yourself even if it's like the hardest thing in the world and I think that's how you continue to I guess feel confident within the dating experience. And on the vulnerability point, we'll finish on this. But I think on the vulnerability point, my sister always tells me, be vulnerable, be vulnerable, be vulnerable.

Open up, open up more. And sometimes she'll read my text to someone and be like, you're not being vulnerable. You need to be more vulnerable than I'm more vulnerable. And they dump me. And I'm like, fuck you, bitch. This is all your fault. Why did I do this?

I didn't even want to be vulnerable with this person. And I remember telling my friend Roxy about this. And I was like, I tried being vulnerable to this guy and still. And Roxy was like, no, no, no. don't be willy-nilly vulnerable that's not good the right person the person who's right for you at that time

will make you feel very safe in that vulnerability it won't feel like something you need to be very active about like be more vulnerable hello I'm being open and vulnerable she's like they will just make you feel comfortable and calm and safe enough to be at to let your guard

down a bit but she cautioned me and I have taken this to heart not to just kind of open myself up very vulnerably to every, you know, every guy date, you know, date and meet on the apps. And thank God for that because there's some fuckers out there. So I think that was a good piece of advice. Sorry to my sister, not to out you. Like, you usually give great advice, but on the vulnerability front, you fucked it. She is here, so. We're going to wrap up now. I want to say a huge thank you to Laurie Nunn, who has created one of the best shows around sex, sex education.

and to Alex for sharing your sex wisdom with us so generously on stage and for helping me so much my relationship to sex so thank you very much and thank you all so much for coming

It's my favorite time of the month, although I'm always on my period for sex talk. So this isn't like my favorite time of the month, but this is my favorite time of the month. So, you know, you win some, you lose some. But I just want to let you know that we'll have the last sex talks at the edition of the year will be in November. That will be on November the 8th, and that is with Paul Brunce in the world's number one matchmaker, who did a TV show with Oprah, who is going to be telling us how to find love. Yeah, quite useful. Maybe. I hope that's not just set up for me to find someone, is it?

In the interim, I have started a substack, which I would absolutely love you to join. That's where I will be forcing myself to write more often. And it'll be going out once a week and roundups on the weekend. So do have a subscribe. And then you can also keep up to date with future sex talks, discount codes, all the good stuff. I'll do lots of giveaways of sex toys because I get a whole lot of them to give away right now. So make sure you sign up. That will be on my Instagram account and come to another sex talks.

It's been recorded as a podcast. You can send it to all your friends. obviously share the wisdom that has been spouted over the course of the evening. But yeah, thank you once again and thank you for the addition for having us. Thank you so much for listening to this live recording of the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Em Louise Boynton. This was recorded at the London Edition Hotel. If you'd like to attend Sex Talks Live, head on over to the event break link in the show notes.

We have lots of exciting live events coming up. In the meantime, don't forget to see. submit whatever Agni Aunt question you'd like us to tackle on a future episode via the sex talks website. That's sextalks.co.uk. And finally, if you've enjoyed the show, I hope you have, please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform your list of us are. Apparently, it helps others to find us. Have a wonderful day. Thank you.