Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - Sex Rated with Ruby Rare

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

Ruby Rare is a sex educator, writer, author and now tv presenter having recently made her TV debut as Rylan Clark’s “sexy sidekick” on E4’s brand new show, Sex Rated.  Here she joins Emma-Louise to discuss the sex advice she’s been offering up on screen, how porn formed the foundation-stone of her sex education and why she’s moving away from a focus on orgasms to a focus on sensuality during sex instead. If you want to join the Sex Talks crew, sign up to Emma-Louise’s substack ‘Swipe Right’ here. And if you'd like to join an upcoming live podcast recording grab your ticket here.

Hello and welcome to the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks exists to engender more honest, open and vulnerable discussions around typically taboo topics. Topics like sex and relationships, gender inequality, and the role technology is playing in changing the way we date, love and fuck. Our relationship to sex tells us so much about who we are and how we show up in the world, which is why I think it's a topic we ought to be talking about with a little more nuanced and a lot more curiosity. So each week I'll be joined by a new guest, whose expertise on the topic I'd really like to mine, and do, well, just that. From writers, authors and therapists to actors, musicians and founders, we'll hear from a glorious array of humans

about all the stuff we're typically not meant to talk about. If you want to join the conversation outside of the podcast, sign up to my substack, be the link in the show notes, or come to a Sex Talks Live at the London Edition Hotel. Okay, enjoy the show. Welcome to the Sex Talks podcast. Today I'm so excited to be joined by the wonderful Ruby Rare. They are a writer, an author, sex educator, and now a TV presenter on E4's brand new show Sex Rated alongside The Fabulous Ryland.

I had the absolute pleasure seeing the first episode last week as a preview and I was just Ruby, I've just been saying to you, I was totally blown away by you think you're brilliant. How does it feel seeing yourself on screen? Weird. I don't think I'm going to get used to it. I did. I have got used to hearing myself on audio. And so I wonder if at some point it might feel just normal seeing my face on telly.

But it definitely doesn't now. I don't know, all of this. It's so weird, isn't it? I feel really, I feel proud and I feel really excited. But I'm also just trying to roll with it and like wait to see what happens. Because it's funny when any kind of. longer term project you've worked really hard on something and it's really intense and I've like I've had this with writing before and when I made my like the documentary series the podcast that again

like really intense like time working with a really great team and then you kind of sit on it for a bit and then it comes out and there's been there's basically been like nine months of having made this show and all of us being like I think we did a really good job I think that was I love making it and I think it's going to be fun to watch but now it's finally the time of other people to like see what they think and there's it's exciting but quite vulnerable totally I mean yeah it's like birthing a child it's now out into the world off doing it's literally nine months wow oh my goodness like pretty much bang on yeah and for anyone who has well the show is going to be out by time anyone is listening

to this which is very exciting but can you just give us a little quick overview of what the show is about and your role in it yeah so sex rated is hosted by the wonderful riland who is is just obviously incredible. And I am his sexy sidekick, giving knowledge and information all about sex. And the format of the show is individuals coming on who want to learn more about themselves and their sex lives. And the way that they do that is through reflecting and getting feedback,

which is often very honest, their exes. And when you first hear that, like, I think the first time I heard the premise, I was like, oh, wow, okay, this is spicy. And it can be a bit spicy, but actually what really surprised and delighted me in the process was seeing how beautiful a lot of the relationships between these individuals and their exes are. There's a lot of care and respect built in, which traditionally, especially on telly, we don't tend to see that very often. It's like your ex is like your enemy, like the antagonist. And that's not what we're showing on this show. and it's creating a space that does really encourage open, honest conversation about our sex lives.

So, yeah, it was a real pleasure to work on. And all of the people who came on, I think everybody just really got it. No one, no, like, we're not there to try and catch people out. And it's about learning and growing and that it's kind of trying, trying to understand that how lovely it is to receive really positive feedback, but also how important it is to receive like subconstructive criticism as well. Totally. And I actually, I was really struck by that. I think there was, to your point, there was such a level of care and kindness and silliness,

well, silliness, your brand turned through. Pops, it's got to be a bit silly, hasn't it? Between the exes and I thought, God, I wonder if my, my ex-sexual partners would be as generous. But I'm interested to know what, obviously there were times at which someone would rate their own, rate themselves in terms of how old they were at a certain kind of sexual act, for example, giving a blow job, whatever, and then their partner would rate them higher, or their partner would rate them kind of the same, and they were kind of pretty much at the same bench. And then there were times when they would rate themselves perhaps as a nine or a ten, and their partner would say

one, which did your heart would kind of sink. Over the course of of the show, did there tend to be any kind of common reasons for such disparities that came up again and again? I mean, I feel like we could, I feel like lots of the sex nerds listening to this could all say it together. There's a really obvious one there, which is just miscommunication or like, or not enough communication that tended to be a running theme. Actually, if you're, if you don't have some kind of check in and communicate what you're, what you're after, what kind of things you like or you like your partner to do, it's really hard. We can't mind read. We can't like, we can't just telepathically know what someone else is going to like. of our bodies and the way our desire works is different from person to often.

And another really interesting one, which happened a few times in the show, was actually the disparity in ratings showed the development of the individual of going, well, actually, at that time, I would have rated myself lower because I wasn't confident, you know, initiating sex or like, you know, do something like dirty talk, which, and then suddenly years later they found a bit more of their groove and that was something that they were really enjoying so it was really interesting when the difference in ratings could actually show how far someone had come are going oh yeah that that totally makes sense at the time I was like I wasn't a good example like we think about the body and stuff at the time I really hated

my body and I wasn't feeling very good in it whereas now I'm in a slightly more like positive mindset. So that was quite cute. That's a little sort of squidgy answer though. I'd love to know if any of them ended up hooking up with their exes after the show or after such a comprehensive degree. I can neither confirm nor deny.

Oh, okay. I'm going to take that as an absolute confirmation. That you did. Ruby, you've been a sex educator for over eight years now, I think I'm right in saying, which is what makes you so perfect this role. You just are a kind of font of knowledge in this space. And then you've

describe the foundation of your work as really being about encouraging people to question the prescriptive messages we've inherited about what sex should be like that is one of my favorite things we do at sex talks always tackling the shoulds around sex which can be so narrow and frustrating when it comes to our sex slide what the prescriptive messaging around sex did you encounter and promptly seek to challenge the context of the show oh that's such a good question I mean, all of the prescriptive stuff just lingers around us all the time. And it's something, I think when you start thinking about sex and relationships with that in mind, it's like how long is a piece of string?

You just keep pulling and pulling and pulling. And there's always something else where, you know, I've been thinking about some researching on it for years. And there's still things that come up where I'm like, whoa, why do we presume? like what am I what am I thinking now I'm doing lots of research right now in like sexual script theory of like why

why we presume certain aspects of like even like you know the order that sex should happen in there's always something else there's always another angle and so I think a lot of the show is meeting people where they're at

but kind of trying to gently encourage them to look at those shoulds also knowing that we can't just shape them all off overnight and it would be really I think it would be counterproductive to barge in and be like hang on everyone this is how you're meant to do it don't do it blah blah blah like I never want to be someone who's like bossing anyone around and telling them what they shouldn't shouldn't be doing I guess I've seen my role as someone who's able to like gently open the door and be like there are these ways of thinking about something as well like do you want to step in

and learn a bit more. And if you don't, that's okay. Like, there's no pressure. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But I guess inviting people on the show. There was lots of stuff around, like, expectations around pleasure of, like, that orgasm was something that needed to happen in order for you to have a good time. One thing that really pleasantly surprised me, actually, was that the vast majority of the men who sleep with women on the show.

really prioritise their partner's pleasure and I was not like that was an error of my part that I wasn't expecting that I think it's a real testament to the people that they got on the show that these are people like it was for the fast vast majority of them it was like an obvious thing being like well yeah obviously I would want I want my partner to have a good time and I'm going to focus on her pleasure

and that was refreshing I loved I loved seeing that so it's also work it's like amplifying some of those like undoing of the shoulds that were all already there as well. I wasn't the only person on the show doing that. And I like that. Yeah, no, completely. And I think what you said there is so true in terms of, it's all very well and good at us, I kind of identifying the shoulds. And that is the kind of, I think, the first important task to be done. I think when you can recognize how the sexual scripts that we have as a society, really grown up with and then how they've affected you at a personal level, it is the first them being able to kind of disentangle the way you sharpen sex from this quite prescriptive idea. However, actually undoing that learned behavior, especially in a very vulnerable context like sex, is hard. I run a platform called sex talk. I talk about this all the time. And still, I find myself in the context of bedroom being like, oh my gosh, Emma, say something, say something to the left,

the left. And I just find it so, I still really struggle with communication. And that is, you know, part of you do, I'm single. So often it'll be like new partners. You haven't necessarily built up that familiarity. But I think it is, it's like, you know, you have to also. I guess we have to all recognize these scripts are so imbued in us as individuals often to do with our sexuality, our relationship, sex, our gender, and then constantly reiterated and reinforced through so much messaging in society. There are so many of the films we watch before we watch, etc. So, I mean, that's all to say.

It therefore is really refreshing to watch a show like this on TV, on mainstream television, May 4, and I actually get that kind of, wow, okay, no, I'm not the only person thinking about this. not a person who's going through these sorts of things and who's struggling with these anxieties. So I think that can also be the thing is like, it's seeing it as a work in progress as well. It's not going like, oh, I've recognised

this, therefore why am I not there yet? Because I don't know if that goal is ever attainable. I don't know if we ever get to a place where we're like, oh, all the shame gone. All of those shoulds no longer in my brain. Like, it's, that change is a really gradual thing that takes time

and a lot of care around yourself. but I think that my really important piece of advice is to not rush any of this stuff. And I guess what's nice with the show, and I hope with more and more of the conversations we all have about sex, is like trying to show that like influx in between bit where we're figuring things out and not trying to like present ourselves as polished, finished products. Because I think that's just really knackering for all of us. I don't want to be that. Totally.

And I was actually, I met up with my sex therapist actually the other day, who's usually based out in Australia but she came to the UK she was visiting last week and we met up for the first time actually since I did sex therapy with her and she obviously had such a huge impact in my life but she was saying how when she dates she's single she's married as well

she there's so much pressure for her to be this absolutely kind of sexually liberated knowledgeable kind of perfect person when it comes to sex and the expectations are so high because as soon as she mentioned to someone

what she does. They're like, oh, you, you must be the queen of communication. You know exactly what you want. You're probably some kind of wanton sex goddess. And she was like, I have all the same anxieties and worries, body hangups. Yes, I maybe have more of a kind of, more of the language to be able to articulate what I'm feeling and any kind of anxiety I have. But it doesn't mean I've like automatically been able to like cure myself of all this stuff. I still, you know, I still have hangups as well. And I think hearing that from her, it was such a start reminder. and I'm sure you've experienced as well. I think you can sometimes be put on a bit of a pedestal

by virtue of being a bit more open in discussing these issues. It actually doesn't make you immune to the cultural influences you've grown up with. Yeah, I think what's refreshing is that anyone who knows me in my personal life knows I'm a little fool. I'm weird and I'm just like scabbing around on the beach quite a lot of the time. And that's, I appreciate that very much because I think that's really, you know, I it would be it's horrible to put pressure on yourself in that way and I definitely I relate I can I can feel like that and I it means that I really appreciate the people in my life who don't see me

like that and who remind me to not see myself like that totally yeah on the show you're you give some very practical advice in terms for example how to give a great blow drop yeah a little blowjob 101 very silly loved it perfect perfect demonstration And I wonder, I guess that was kind of in response to questions. I don't want to say issues. It was more kind of curiosities and questions that came up amongst participants. And I just wondered kind of more broadly, in the show and outside the show, whether there are any specific questions that you tend to get asked most frequently

when it comes to have, I guess, like, sex tips and advice from people that you meet, that you've kind of held a session for, like, a sex education context. Yeah. That's a really good question. I definitely get asked lots of questions around. initiating and that kind of initial shift where you go from something flirty to sexy. So like, you know, whether that's either asking someone out on a date or the moment where like the number of times I get asked, especially from like maybe a lot of the time queer women

who are quite new to queer dating. I felt like, how do I shift from like us flirting and having a good time to our kissing? Because why does that feel so complicated? Why does that feel really difficult? And it's super nerve-wracking those moments as well. but I always try to just make people embrace the nerves rather than feel shame and try and press them down. So I definitely get that.

And then I love questions about pegging and kind of anal play for people who are quite new to it and curious. And then questions about orgasms and again all the shoulds of like, is it normal if I don't, if I find it really difficult to come? is it normal if I can only come when I have a sex talk like when there's a sex toy involved should I try should I be not doing that you know all of that the kind of like practical pleasure stuff is very common yeah and then and then also like kind of bodies changing as well I've

had some really interesting chat with people over year like whether that's post operations or just other like postpartum and then also aging as well of going okay I'm perimenopausal now how the fuck do I navigate the way that my practical body is shifting because I didn't I only learned about this fairly recently that like during the menopause like the clitoris atrophies and like get slightly

smaller and that's like why are we not talking about that that's really important that doesn't mean there's no pleasure that doesn't like that we meet like it blows my mind that we are not having these as conversations because hopefully the goal is that all of us are going to age and if we're lucky

enough. We will go through that and be navigating our bodies at that time as well as now. We're taught so little about our bodies and I've got quite few friends now having babies and they'll say to me like the first time I'm finding out about the a lot of the like practical body changes

a lot of like the specific details around pregnancy is whilst pregnant and they're like it's a bit late now. There's not much I can do now I'm actually pregnant. And the revision to go back to the point you just made in terms of the press around Auguste you mentioned at the start of the conversation you just repeat it there have taken the pressure off of the need to orgasm during sex.

And I guess because the conversation around the orgasm gap has been brought more into the fore recently, which I think is important and the disparities between the rate at which men versus women orgasm in partnered heteronormative sex is a topic I think is important to discuss. But I guess with that conversation, there is a lot of pressure and owners placed on orgasms, kind of being the metric for success in sex. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And you recently broke, but I think it's really,

Refinery 29 about how group sex has really shifted your focus when it comes to pleasure and sensuality in sex. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about that. Should we not be focusing so much in orgasms? The short answer is yes. And obviously it's more complicated than that. But I think we would all have more fun and playful and pleasurable sex. orgasms were not seen as as much of a priority. And obviously, orgasms are really fun. Orgasms can be a lovely part of sex. I am not here to imagine if a sex educator being like,

no more orgasms, that's the thing. I mean, unless that's what you're into and like there's a whole chastity thing, in which case that's hot and you keep doing your thing. But we're really, really focused, as you said, on orgasms as a way of measuring success. And I think that's quite a, I think because historically we really emphasize male orgasm as a signal for sex to have ended and also as like an important point in sex of being like, well, yeah, we centred male pleasure for so long. And so a way almost to level the playing field with that is to focus more on women's and other people's.

orgasms and in some ways that's a good way of doing it you know if we're like more orgasms for everyone in theory that's a great thing everybody's happy everyone's coming woo but actually what would it look like if we approached it a different way of actually just decentralising the focus on orgasm for everyone and I don't have a fully formed dancer with that yet but I'm curious about it it's something I'm thinking about a lot right now um interesting actually as you're saying that I'm almost how charting how like feminism and feminist theory has evolved. First, it's kind of wanting equality means, I guess,

was articulated as almost women having what men had and us having equal jobs, power says it's like in the kind of public sphere. And over time, there's been a deconstruction of that. Like, well, we don't just want to replicate a lot of the tropes of what has been historically seen as quite like

toxic masculinity. We don't just need to be replicating the cis white male to achieve equality. Actually, we can find there's so much more kind of nuance in that conversation. So it's almost like we're seeing evolution of feminist theory mirrored, I guess, in conversations around sexual equality, perhaps unsurprisingly.

Totally. And like when I, when I have sex, I want to not feel pressure for myself or anyone else to have an orgasm. And I also want to go into sex knowing that my pleasure is going to be prioritised and focused on and indulged by the people that I'm sleeping with. So it's, and like both of those have to happen. If I'm just saying, oh, it doesn't matter if I come or not, that's fine. And then that's diminishing pleasure. And like not, and just not wanting to make a fuss or not wanting to stress myself or out

or like put pressure, big air quotes on someone else to like, you know, be a part of my pleasure. Not here for that. But I also don't want, my, I've kind of lost my train of thought with that. Okay, I think it's about redefining what pleasure needs. And a lot of that is, I think it's useful tying that to the idea of sensuality as well, that it's not, you know, you're not going in, I don't want sex to just be about having an orgasm. Quite boring. Like, you know, orgasms can be lovely.

But actually, for me, it's like, what do I, what do I want from sex? I want to feel connection and excitement and I want to play around. Like this whole, I've been talking about it with Mates recently. Like the idea of sex is like a space to rithe around. Like I want to be, I want to feel like kind of a bit feral and animalistic and just be like writhing with myself or with like other partners. And if an orgasm is part of that, then lovely. But why should that measure if I've had a successful sexual experience or not?

there's way more. We really limit ourselves when we're just thinking about orgasms. I completely agree with that. And I think that focus on sensuality in itself is quite liberating. I think because I struggled to orgasm and partner sex for so long

and it was wrapped up with my sexual dysfunction, a lot of issues I had around sex, which I've talked about ad nauseum on sex talks. But I think because of that and because of doing sex therapy and I was able to orgasm and partner sex again, I think it became this great focus in my sexual life of like orgasm meant

being free of the issues that used to surround sex for me, and thus good sex was defined by orgasm. And to your point, actually, I think it is so much more around sensuality. And in a way, putting a focus on orgasm brings a very goal-orientated mentality into the bedroom, which we live in such a goal-orientated, success-obsessed world. And I am as guilty as an ex-person buying every self-help book. I've just started a book called Relentless, how to, like, triple X your power. I mean, really, I'm not the worst for this.

But I realized in the content, I was bringing that mentality then to set being this right, right, must come, must make other person come. And it becomes very, like, heavy and kind of quite a burdensome thing, I think, to bring into something that should be, like, really kind of curious and sensual and connecting. But on that point of sensuality, and obviously, Ruby, I'm asking totally for a friend here, okay? How do you create? How do you create sensuality with a semi-stranger? Because I think I associate sensuality as something that I've been able to explore really beautifully with longer-term partners where I feel really comfortable. Like my exploiting, we could just lie naked and really explore one another's bodies in this really intimate, open way. That has never translated to new partners or one-like stand. But I don't want my one. one night sense, you know, I'm single, they're a reality of how I'm hooking up with people.

How do I bring, how does my friend, how does my friend bring more sensuality into those more kind of casual sexual situations, can you? It's a really, really interesting question. I think you can. I think it's about mindset going into it and you, and I guess it's kind of for that to happen, you need a partner who's like-minded and up for that as well because it's quite difficult for you to bring all of that when someone else has a different perception

of what they're wanting from that casual encounter. So I guess having a bit more of the mentality of being like, this is fun and casual and I'm really excited to do this, but like let's really get to know each other's bodies. Like this is hot and let's really be into each other. I think we I think lots of people end up having crap casual sex because there's less care and respect in it for themselves and for other people

and actually I have had some gorgeous experiences in the part I've had some really crap casual sex experiences but I've had some really nice ones when we're like we're not going to see each other again but like let's have fun like let's have the aim of this be like this really fun connected moment and that can still be filthy you know it's interesting when you say sensual and connected often we our minds go to like rose petals scattered and like soft sweet caresses and like

if that's your thing great but it can be really smutty and filthy as well and I'm kind of here for that I think some practical tips with sensuality are about kissing and breath and like mouths in general but if we're thinking about our senses as like the whole body genitals are a great way to experience your senses there's a lot of great stuff that goes on but obviously the whole rest of the body there's loads of great places and body mapping can be a really good exercise that you could suggest in a casual setting if you've got the time if you want to be leisurely about it but I think actually share like breath being something that you're sharing and being really intimate with that once all the kind of social rules unravel

when you start really heavily making out with someone like you're literally in each other's the vibe has shifted and I think that a base layer of sensuality in a really lovely way and then also I was chatting to a mate about this the other day about how hot they find and again I was like a friend also I fully agree with this as well but my mate saying that has just started hooking up with someone and both of them keep like putting their fingers in each other's mouth and she's like I'm just obsessed with this like it's really hot It's like we're making out but with each other's fingers and it's really playful and it's very, you know, like it can be quite suggestive in terms of oral sex and all of the other lovely things they might want to explore. But there's something really sensual about that as a moment of having like someone's thumb or like somebody's, you know, like four finger and middle finger like in your mouth and doing that in a way that's just really like playful and intuitive.

so that just this week was something that I've been thinking about quite a lot because you wouldn't think of that necessarily as like a typical part of the sexual script but I think that adds a lot of sensuality in this really fascinating way yeah I think also anything that adds in a like slightly different layer there's some I don't know like a kind of almost a different layer of dialogue between you two like oh this is something we're doing this is between us so we could just not but actually we had this thing where we put fingers in there's just something. me about that kind of like shared

like secret language. Yeah, it's a cheekiness. Quite connecting, yeah, which I think is, I think is really important and that I think it's anything that to your earlier point breaks that, I guess monotony of just following the play by play of like snog finger, fuck, I mean

and then they're like dreaded and let's hope no listening to have this recently, I did so I'm taking on the team. That all words someone has sex you and they just roll off you and just roll off the bed and you get up and like cool and go into the bathroom like do you want to wash off and you're like how have we suddenly made this so like sanitised and like like so lacking intimacy so I think

me it's also like the care that you have around the actual sex is like so critical to being able to maintain that face of intimacy and also maybe to invite if you if again you've got the time and you can be leisurely to have some kind of lovely sexual play and then have a bit of a natural break where you are chatting again it not having to be a thing of being like this slow, steady crescendo up of being like the sex is happening, it's happening, it's happening and it's done

and stop. Being able to like stop and start and kind of have just adding a bit more fluidity to your approach to sex which I know is quite a broad piece of advice but I guess I like broad advice because I don't want to give advice

that's really prescriptive. I just want to invite people to think about what might work for themselves because it's going to be different from you and for me and I love that and of course again and speaking in the kind of the broader terms but communication is obviously something we've discussed it briefly here it comes up at every single sex so it's the importance of communication to good sex really saying what you want what you don't like I still really struggle with it despite proselytising the benefits of good communication during sex do you have any tips and I know I'm not alone in this because a lot of people at sex

to tell me that they also struggle with it do you have any tips for people who have perhaps a lot of anxiety around sex previously and who want to get better at communicating what they like and get a little bit more comfortable in that space for talking to a new sexual partner, some of them not that familiar with. Yes, I do. The best thing you can do for yourself is start that conversation before you're actually having sex or in a sexual environment and doing it as casually as, you know, these conversations I totally get, they can be really daunting we can put loads of pressure on ourselves so I don't want this to come across being like glib in any way of being like just say this I know it's I know it's really

complicated but if you're walking home with someone after a date and you know that you're going to hook up or if you are going to hang out with someone and you've established that it's going to be a sexy thing not being afraid to ask like before we kind of dive into this what are you into like what how do you like having sex what a great question what a like did you see question where you're going to get lots of information

and not necessarily information of like oh to the left a bit and harder but just you're going to get an overall vibe of what someone's expecting and hoping for in sex and then you get to share that and then you're collaborating then you're figuring out what that sex between the two of you or more is going to look like

I think we have loads to learn from different from the BDSM community but also like in terms of queer sex and trans sex there's like often a need for this in a different way than in cis sex a bit like if i'm hooking up with someone who is non-binary or trans there's more of there's like often there's a conversation that's required within that of saying how how do you like your body to be touched like are there part of your body that you're not comfortable with me touching in a certain way like how do you feel about penetration of any kind you know all of those

thing just if we if we try to lose the expectations of what our body's meant to do in sex that levels like i think that can just be really useful we're starting with no expectations just because you know you might have a vulva and your partner you're you're absolutely what has penis let's not let's not make presumptions about what that means the sex will be like and and then once you've spoken about it a little bit before you started having sex I hope that that then gives you a bit of groundwork a bit of a foundation to then

chat about it during and after and for it and like to try and just override that voice that we so often can always have of being like I should say this now but why we're not saying it at Frozen and I'm not going to and instead just going oh can we just pause for a sec when you're doing this like that's that's really great but can I show you how I

how I like this or can you can you like slow this down a little bit and actually when your fingers are inside me you don't need to go as deep but you can go a bit firmer you know something like that it's great that's the information I want when I'm having sex because I want to know how to please them entirely and I think that often in the times where I'm so keen I want my sexual partners to tell me like I'm like what feels good do you like that and I really want them to be communicative because I want it to be a good experience I'm like I want to give you pleasure and in turn I then think reflect the fact that I often find it hard to communicate

and I'm actually doing myself a disservice, but also it's kind of unfair to them. I'm not really giving them the opportunity to make me feel really good and I'm kind of denying them that in the way that I get quite frustrated if people don't tell me what is feeling nice and what they enjoy the moment.

So I'm like, hey, I really want this to be good and I really want to be honest. Well, maybe that requires a bit of homework. Maybe that requires, like anyone who's experiencing this to actually write it down or say it out loud what they want from sex. and how they like to be touched

before they're in an environment where they're being asked that question because I know that it's quite intimidating when you're like oh fuck I kind of know but I can't how do I say it out loud how do I articulate myself maybe you need to do a bit of that

I'm saying this as homework for anyone listening and you know what I actually find quite helpful and this is going to sound really cringy but record yourself saying it I love like leaving yourself what that voice knows I mean I love a voice note anyway but I think what I have struggled with in the past is like hearing myself say things actually.

I've just found it really awkward. I felt really a lot of shame around sex. I felt really embarrassed. And I found it really helpful, almost recording myself saying things that I would like, just getting used to those words coming out of my mouth and not being cringe. And Ruby, this conversation has also made me think of a quote I read of you.

I think a piece that you interviewed recently, which really stuck with me. And I really loved. You said, do you really love the idea of treating silliness seriously? and treating serious stuff with a bit of silliness which I think really kind of encapsulates what you're saying there is that this stuff can treat seriously the silliness of sex like really take that seriously

and take off that edge and that pressure around that performativity as you say but Ruby I have to ask it's not always been like this no I think I have been given something in life which is not a guarantee and lots of people don't have which is that I've got two parent figures

who are really supportive and really and have been really kind and encouraging in my life. And actually I've got more than that because I have beyond my parents that a couple of other adults who have played really formative parts in my life. And

bodies, nakedness was quite a normal thing in our house but actually I was so fucking wrapped up in, I think I was so wrapped up in insecurity and self-loving and just trying to be a character from skin as teenager that I wasn't comfortable talking to my parents about sex even though I think my mum was quite open to having those chats

I just couldn't do it and I had fucking awful sex ed and my early sexual experiences were just were led by shame and fear more than anything else more than fun and curiosity so like part of it is me wanting to like uplift little weird awkward teenage ruby and show her how much fun you can have with all of this stuff. But also, beyond that, I really respect both my parents for being, like there haven't been any barriers, like, I've not no barriers, but they've been very up for me and my younger sibling

bringing lots of new weird shit into their lives of being like, cool, we're going to talk about this now, this thing's happening, And not necessarily about sex, but just it's kind of meant that there's, I come to lots of conversations now with curiosity being a more predominant factor than like shame or fear. And I'm a joyfully indulgent person. I love experiencing things. I love getting excited by shit and being curious and just wanting lots out of life and in my life. And so over time, that has meant, that has formed like the primary relationship I have

with sex and intimacy and relationships. And I also think this is such a rambly question and I answer. I'm sorry, but like, I think when you start to really recognize how actively damaging the way that we talk about sex and relationships is for everybody, I want to inject some joy and lightness and enthusiasm. into those conversations while also holding room for the really shit stuff

because it's not about sugar-coating this I have no interest in like positivity washing and being like this is all great, wonderful like there are some massive fucking big issues to tackle like when when sex and intimacy goes wrong it goes fucking wrong and you have to find ways to hold that

as well as hold the lightness so it's kind of trying to figure that out and like for me it's like leading with the joyful stuff more than the doom and gloom but I'm still holding the both most frantic response ever sorry I'm like this is what's in it

not at all I love going to deep dive into your brain but you said there that your sex education was shit your parents didn't necessarily it's not that they were having kind of overt conversation around sex but they were open and there was nakedness Ruby's parents do appear

on a fabulous podcast series in touch both of them They were fabulous. They're both so fab. They really are. I recommend everyone listen to the podcast. It really is fantastic. But I'm curious then where your kind of formative sex education really came from then.

I guess I'm thinking of the more positive sex education that led to this mentality. If you can locate that in any specific event person thing. It came from porn, I think initially. It came from being 18 and 19 and starting to. to watch porn in a different way that was not just watching it because I was horny and I wanted to get off, but watching it and being curious about what it was teaching me and other people about sex. And that started off watching like mainstream hardcore porn and thinking about how that was

impacting my sex life and other people's. But beyond that, being really curious about how it's this like, it's this kind of like, world that influences all of us without us really acknowledging and talking about it so then it was finding porn performers and filmmakers who were making stuff that really spoke to me and was making me feel more and more fascinated so vex actually i think is like a massive person in that who you've done stuff with before like who created chambered heart i also think reading slutt ever carly i can't remember her saying skorinos like blog way way back in the day she was like the first person being like really fucking filthy and honest about sex and that really excited me of going oh wow yeah you're embracing like the messiness and the nuance of sex and allowing me to think about it a bit more yeah and then and then honestly it was like starting to have sex in a way that when my pleasure was centered which took that was that was a nice boyfriend way back in the day like I started having sex when I was 15 and it was over

the first time I had sex and I really felt like it was about my pleasure was when I was 19, 20. So that it kind of all, it was like I saw what bad sex was like. There were a couple of exceptions of some nice sex when I was a teenager. I always wonder if there's one person listening and I want to be like, not you. You were really sweet. Don't worry. Unless actually you are a problem and I hope you revised your sex. Yeah, none of the others, none of the other ones, but you were nice.

but then from 20 onwards it was kind of like I could see there was that kernel of like little magic of going oh wow I love this I think this is fascinating and why are there so many barriers to this being a good time lots of people so I was living at first for a bit and then when I started working professionally in the sexual health world then you know that just lifted the lid completely and it was like I had all this initial interest

but suddenly knowing how to confidently speak to a group of young people and a group of adult professionals as well about this, that that was just not, I'm one of many people who do that well but like that is an essential part of human society I think being able to provide spaces to have these conversations and I'm really proud to have been someone who does that and can do that and there are so many other people who are brilliant

especially in kind of like school and educational settings who can help people along on their own personal journeys by just trying to normalise this stuff and trying to inform people. It's a beautiful thing and we need to prioritise it more and more. It's so essential. And Ruby,

what do you think has been most transformative for you in terms of your sexual evolution? That's a right. Great question. Quite broad, but I think the idea of queering sex, I think like being a, you know, being a queer person doesn't just sit with me of like the gender of the person I fancy or I'm having sex with. It's more, you know, queer theory is about like queering the narratives that we are taught about our lives and the world around us.

And so looking at sex and pleasure and love and connection through a queer lens has been really formative because it keeps me on my toes and it keeps me questioning why I, have certain presumptions about things and what it would look like if I broke those presumptions down a little bit. And there's so much as a kind of a queer person who is

sort of in the bisexual section of the queer umbrella, that it, I think it takes a long time, it can take lots of buy and pan people a while to feel comfortable with their sexuality because there's still quite a lot of

lot of nuance in not being monosexual, which is like what, you know, monosexual is like gay or straight. Like, this is the one gender I'm into. Here we go. And leaning into that nuance and relishing in it rather than feeling like it was a

problem I had to solve was really formative for me. And that just keeps happening in all the other parts of my life. And that's my identity and sex and relationship is broad than that as well. It's kind of it's about life in general. question i guess always comes back to that thing of just questioning the bait in

assumptions that are so often tied to our gender tied to our can be tied to our class they're tied to things that feel like they're quite deterministic in terms of who and how we're going to be and how we'll live our life and when you begin questioning those across the board i think sex is such an important place to do it but as you say i think that has a ripple effect on the way in which you then question other aspects of your life and i think i heard you actually ages ago. I think before you'd ever come on sex talk, I'm pretty sure I listened to a podcast interview where you discussed the importance of every time, not just with every new partner, but every time you go into sexual experience taking it as new. And I'm sure I've

quoted you on that since. And I cannot remember which podcast it was. Maybe it was on Hannah Witten's one. And I thought that's always stuck with me because I think that we, it's so important. I think it kind reflects a little bit of what you're saying there, but of being able to take every sexual experiences as new and from a kind of point of curiosity rather than assuming we know someone else's body, we know how this is going to go, we know any, we have any kind of pre-assumed ideas of a sexual experience based on, even if we know the person really well, because people's sexual appetite changes, our experience change everything. So I think it was going into every situation with that kind of newness and that curiosity,

I think is generally a really great kind of rule by which to live. I think it can be very liberating across the board. And I'm just curious to know, and we're going to have to wrap up shortly, even though I feel like I could talk to you forever, Ruby. But your own sex education, as you articulate, came a lot from porn, obviously there was an influence of your parents. And I'm curious to know, when you were working at Brooke, when you were giving sex education in schools

and then delivering your sexy sermons now to adults and really to everyone now, especially through TV. But where are people's, where are people learning about sex, really? Because we know that sex education, every research study I read, every paper I look into, at least 70% of people, more than three courses of people, feel totally dissatisfied with their sex education as it's delivered in schools. They feel really let down by how undiverse

in terms of different sexuality, genders, sex education typically is. So I'm just curious. I think we often think that it is just poor and teaching young people about sex. But where else are people really getting them more formative sex education from now, do you think? I feel like we learn just as much, if not more. from sex about what it said than what is said

and like that applies to when we're growing up and the messages that we received from kind of family and our wider friends and our kind of community I think the fact that even though culturally we're obsessed with sex and relationships

there's still not much room for explicit but not sensationalised conversations about sex like on on telly and film that whole like cut to the morning after or like whatever you know it's it's those messages where we're not we're not actually invited to really get into it and that sense that I think that really sets a precedent for the fact that we're all doing this but with a kind of sense

of quietness or a bit of shame or awkwardness kind of thing and we're and often we're all kind of bouncing off of each other and trying to have little subtle conversations where we're like is this normal is it okay if I'm doing this and then often if we're British you know people will go to the pub and get a bit pissed and then you'll end up having a conversation being like is it all right that I like this oh my god blah like this is all funny I'm talking about that from experience but I think lots of people might you know so it's it's kind of this little murmur in or loads of our lives and then we're I think lots of people are really hungry to find spaces to be able to talk about this and I want to just

acknowledge that and make those spaces where it's okay to talk about it where you don't have to have the crutch of having had a few drinks or being able to talk to someone who's a bit more anonymous because you don't want someone in your life to know this or judge you. But I'd like there'd just be more open spaces to play around with this, to ask questions and to not have to perform like we know exactly what we're doing. And obviously social media plays a huge part of that even though social media platforms are doing a great job at really censoring often very soft to sex positive accounts, educators, etc. But I've just been reading a little bit before this

about kind of just how many young people now getting the information from TikTok specifically and how sexual wellness, sexual health, is just blowing up on TikTok as we know. And in many ways, that is great that more young people have access these conversations. I think it helps remove the taboo, remove the stigma around sex.

But as we also know, there's a lot of misinformation that ends up getting peddled on these sites. How do you feel generally about the in growth of channels like TikTok being people's kind of primary form of sex education? It's tricky. It's tricky. I made a documentary Radio 4 about this last year or the year before last because I think there's like the potential for loads of positive stuff

to come out of online sex ed. But for every person who is like qualified to have to have, these conversations, there are going to be five or ten people who are just spewing fact. And some of them, some of those facts will be true and hopefully we'll come from good informed places. But others may well be quite warped and inaccurate or may come from a place of malice or, you know, willful misinformation. And it's really hard to tell the difference.

And I think young people have a much better sense of internet literacy than many people give young people credit for which I don't want it to be a thing of like being like oh these little like young people just don't understand but like you and I have some kind of nativeness to internet culture that anyone younger than us has even more

but I guess it's about encouraging those conversations around like critical thinking just as much as conversations around like sex ed it's about how we how we use these spaces I guess I don't know I mean I think if I could do some stuff to change the way it was I would but also at this point

it feels like a bit of a mighty beast and I don't know how much we can do about it really I know that's quite pessimistic but no I think it's true though and I also think it's such a like ever-changing beast I think it's like as constantly evolution mean like TikTok is new it's such a new social media platform and has had the growth has been like unprecedented although we hate that phrase now post-COVID but it's been you know it's growing faster we could have imagined and had such a huge impact. So I think it's really hard to also be able to preempt what, like, the long-term impact of these platforms will be

and how they'll grow. So I guess it is just always we'll kind of end up playing catch up. But I guess it's where, you know, people like you are so important having a voice that is trustworthy in a landscape in which there are lots of people who, as you say, aren't particularly necessarily going to be those credible sources on this sort of information.

We are going to wrap up for you because I know you have a very busy day. Unsurprising as you've got so much promoting around the show. But I want to say a huge thank you. I mean, as I said, I think that you are doing such brilliant work. And the show is a fantastic reflection on you and how you approach this topic. I love the joy you bring to this. Just to round us off, is there, what is one piece of, with agony, aunt, bisexual, big sister advice, maybe plop from one of your sexy sermons that you would like to leave our listeners with today? Oh, that's really, that's a really lovely question.

What do I want to say? Okay, really, really basic. And this is a lovely friend of mine, Mr Bingo, who's an artist, made, like Greystone Plaques that said this. Don't forget to have fun. Oh, I love that. Isn't that just a great thing of being like, yes, there's complicated shit out there, but what's the point if we're not able to find some joy?

Totally. I love that. My mum said that to me only yesterday, obviously not in relation to sex, although I do tell her way too much. But I was just like, well, I'm really anxious. And she was like, you know what? Just approach it with happiness. Just smile. It'll make you feel 10 times better.

And again, not. I don't want a positive wash it. I love that advice from your mum, but, like, it is, it's like trying to find the fun despite all the difficult stuff. Yeah, I guess. As I say to my sister all the time, it ain't that deep. Ain't that deep. Ruby, it's been an absolute joy.

I recommend that everyone listening to this, go and watch Sex Rated to see Ruby there. I'm sure we'll speak to you again soon on Sex Talks at some capacity, but thank you so much for your time and sending you loads of love. Good luck with everything. I love too, babe. Thank you so much for trying. Thank you so much for listening to today's Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. If you'd like to attend a live recording of the podcast, check out the eventbrate link in the show notes,

as we have lots of exciting live events coming up. In the meantime, don't forget to submit whatever AgDiant question you'd like us to tackle on a future podcast episode via the Sex Talks website. That's sextalks.co.uk. And finally, if you enjoyed the show, I hope you did. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform. your listening to this on, as apparently it helps others to find us. Have a wonderful day.