Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - Sex Talks Live ft. comedians Dane Baptiste, Jordan Gray and Katie Green

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

This episode was sponsored by dating app, Feeld. Download Feeld using the exclusive download code: feeld.co/sextalks. The economy may be f*cked, the cost-of-living-crisis all too real, the current state of politics cause for despair... but that doesn't mean we can't laugh through our tears and find humour in the madness of it all. And what better way to do just that than with a frank discussion on sex, love, and the trials and tribulations of modern dating with a panel of speakers who are literally paid to make us laugh....? For the final Sex Talks Live of the summer, we enlisted the help of a panel of comedians, right before they head off to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, to answer all of your most pressing sex, love and general life woes. Joining Emma on this live recording of the Sex Talks podcast we have comedian Dane Baptiste; actor, screenwriter and comedian, Jordan Gray and comedian and podcast host, Katie Green. If you want to send your own agony aunt question to the podcast, head on over the sextalks.co.uk and if you'd like to join an upcoming live podcast recording grab your ticket here. This episode was sponsored by dating app, Feeld. If you want to spice up your summer, all while supporting this podcast, then please do download Feeld using the exclusive download code: feeld.co/sextalks.

Hello and welcome to a live recording of the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks is dedicated to engendering more open and honest conversations around typically taboo topics, specifically sex, relationships and the future of intimacy. Today's episode has been recorded at the London Edition Hotel. If you'd like to attend a live event in the future, please do head on over to the Eventbrite link in the show notes, as we have lots of exciting events coming up. Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. very special show as we're joined by three comedians who are very generously offering their services as our guest agoniance here to solve solve all of our sex, love, dating and general

life woes. Are you up for it? I'm at the wrong podcast. God damn it. Before we get stuck in a little bit of Adam. God, it is really hot. That is what a, that's what a, that's what a Hot Flash feels like, oh my God, and I'm menstruating well. So before we get stuck in, a huge thank you to the London edition, this wonderful place that we're sat in and to Don Julio for sponsoring the Sex Talks. Oh, if you want to clap, yeah, the Sex Talks Live series. And genuinely making this happen, I never imagined that we'd still be sitting here like a year and a half on from Sex Talks launching here.

So seriously, thank you so much. And we do love our Don Julio drinks. So thank you for those. I also want to say a very big thank you to our podcast launch sponsor and partner for today's event, which is the dating app field. With over 20 sexuality and gender identity options to choose from, field is a genuinely inclusive, inclusive dating app created to help you date on your own terms. And we love dating on our own terms. We love dating at all. Someone date me.

Whether you're looking for a friend, a friend with benefits, I don't need any more of those, but thanks, a casual to intense summer romance, or whether you want to explore solo or with a partner. Field is a dating app for you. Now, so download the app, and actually then you can bring your field date to the next sex talks in September,

which is a kind of double whammy of fun. Right, so now we are all sweating profusely, and I have sweat between my knees. I think we will go into the conversation. So let me just introduce my wonderful guest for the evening. So what I will do is I will give you your kind of formal title introduction and ask you to tell me a little bit about what you're currently working on. So, Dane, I'm going to turn to you first.

Hi, everybody. Hi. Hi, Emma. Hi. So Dane Baptiste, the London-born stand-up. Stand-up-made is what I wrote in my notes. Stand-up Maine. Yes, your stand-up made.

Stand-up, that's good. London-board stand-up. comma, that's why grammar is so important. Made comedy history, is what we're going for, in 2014 as the first black British act to be nominated for a comedy award at the Edinburgh Finch Festival for his debut stand-up show Citizen Dame.

He has since... Oh yeah, huge clap. No, no, only if you want to. That was almost 10 years ago. There's no need to be patronising, and I'm just happy to be here. He has since gone on to rack up TV credits like they're going out of fashion,

hosts his own podcast. Dane Baptiste Questions Everything, which I've loved to deep diving into in preparation for this, as well as BBC 3's Beamus and YouTube series, The 80s Ed of Blackness. There's also a bunch of other things, but honestly these lists for all of you were getting a bit long, so I had to chop them, so sorry. Dane, you're returning to Edinburgh to the Fringe Festival

after a five-year hiatus with your new show in Bap Squire. That is something to say. Can you give us a brief rundown of what the new show entails? Just getting old and shit. It's been five years. It's just basically a show about what I've been up to in the face of a global pandemic and ongoing government corruption

and just learning to manage all that stuff. Just like, you know, becoming a mature person, not trying to fight people and have road rage. Big, big parts of growth there as a person. But just, yeah, regular stuff, I guess. But funnier than this explanation. Funny than the explanation and normal stuff. You know what? I have just passed my driving test.

So I now need, yeah, I know. seriously. Thanks. I know everyone has wooed for that before. Don't, don't rush out there. Well, I was saying, I need to handle road rage now because now I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, I'm a new driver. And meanwhile, I'm going at like 50 and like an 80 speed or whatever it is. Okay, great.

There is no such thing as 80 speed. I get that. As I said it, I thought, wow, that's really... Did you pass both tests, theory and driving? Wait, what? There's two... No. No, I thought it was just at the computer. Tap, tap, tap. I passed the tap, tap, tap. Yes, I was very good at that.

Next, we have... Actually, you know what, I'm going to go to Katie first because you are... Katie Green, first introduced stand-up when she was taking an acting class, and classmate told her, you're not that good at acting. That must have stung. But you should try stand-up. Little did she know, the back-handed compliment would start her comedy career. She went on to feature in HBO's Women in Comedy Festival,

laugh best, and many more. Again, I had to shorten these lists because they are long. Katie was a funny women finalist in... 2020 and you can catch her before she heads up. No, that was from last. I'm not going to read that bit. End bit. I'm not, we're not catching you before you heard the pleasance, right? Not right, right. Yeah, okay. Just, you know, edit in situ. Always good. Okay, you've recently launched your new podcast, Green Card, which is hilarious. For anyone who hasn't yet had a chance to listen, can you give us a sense of what the podcast is about and the themes that you cover in your comedy? So, basically,

I've just gotten my, my visa to live here. And it was, thank you. Thank you. It's better than driving license I'd say. Thank you and it was very stressful and I think I I thought that because I was working on it for so long I thought it would be something that would solve all my problems but it as soon as I got it I was like oh wait I'm still single that's weird so basically I started it because I felt really lonely because of the whole process so it's really just me talking to my friends and being less alone. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I also thought driving, the driving test would change my life and here I am.

It's all the same. And I can't afford a car, so nothing really does change. Excellent. I urge you all to go and listen to the podcast. And Jordan, you're also heading up, oh no, I miss that bit, sorry. Actor, comedian and screenwriter. In 2022, Jordan's solo show is it a bird sold out at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And she went on to be nominated for the Dave Comedy Award, formerly the Perrier.

before winning next up's biggest award in comedy and the British Comedy Guides Comedians, Comedian. Did I get that right? You did, but it sounds more impressive than it is. The biggest award in comedy, they called it that because it's literally a six-foot inflatable trophy that you blow up. That's such a good idea.

It's cool. It's a nice prop to bring along to shows and I let it slowly inflate in the background everywhere. But also, the biggest award, we could play on that. The sex talks, the biggest award going in media could be huge. I just have to make it. Love that.

Where are we? Jordan was the first transgender person to take a solo stand-up to the London Palladian and has her own podcast transplaining which can be found on most podcast platforms. Jordan, you are now heading back to the Fringe Festival next month

to do I think you're there for two days so if anyone's going, we can catch you there. For anyone who hasn't had the chance to see your show, can you give us a little bit of insight into what we could expect. I most certainly can. Thank you for having me on your lovely podcast. It's a show called Is It a Bird? Because it's a little bit about superheroes.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? But also, I am transgender and I'm from Essex. So it's like, is it a bird? I don't know. And you don't need to know anything about anything coming in. I mostly talk about Batman and boobs and dogs. Batman, boobs and dog. That's why we were both nominated for the award. And just in case anyone missed your Friday night live appearance in the fabulous pink suit,

can you tell us how it began and can you tell us how it ended? That is a very easy question to answer. It began in a pink suit and it ended without a pink suit. Ended. Because I took it off because I got nude because I thought it'd be nice for people to see a transgender body not laying on a medical slab but jumping about like a toddler at Christmas. And it's really fun. It was really fun.

Thanks. And it was bloody joyful. It was really fun and very stupid. And I actually heard... It was not stupid. And could I say, it wasn't even that shocking because I was in Liverpool when I saw that live and then I went for a spliff and I saw a massive rat

by my hotel. And that was much more shocking. That was just an excellent performance, Jordan. That's all I'm saying. I did lose out to a rat at the Edinburgh Fringe this year. There's always rats. Everywhere. Initially planning on setting yourself on fire.

Is that right? And then Channel 4 annoyingly got in the way. Logistics. Yeah, I wanted to make a magician's cotton suit that you could set on fire and it would disappear and I'd be nude underneath. And I thought I'd draw on this incredible schematic to send to Channel 4

that perfectly explained how it works and then they showed me the picture I sent them and it was just a stick man on fire with a little arrow that said now, do it now, like the timing. So they were right not to let me set myself on fire. But I'm going to do it in the future. Spoiler.

Bloody health and safety. You're really getting in the way. things but you would have had to shave off your eyebrows which would have you had to shave off I'd have to shave off my eyebrows and draw them put a bold cap on and then a fire safety hair that looks like my own hair it would have been a lot of effort for nothing well the pink suit looked great so I think actually having that ping off so let's get started on you solving all of our problems I feel like given that we are here to talk about sex love and relationship woes it feels only appropriate that we get your relationship status

sees before we start. It's a bit like if we were going to a speed dating night and we're all putting our traffic light colours on, kind of to indicate the level of desperation with which we are looking for a hookup and yes, I am bright green. Jordan, can you start us off? I know after a long courtship online, you're now married to your wonderful wife Is it healy? It's heli like helicopter.

Heli like helicopter. Heli like helicopter, lovely, helicopter. Helly, a few years ago, and you now describe her as the one consistent joy in my life, the woman who moved across the country to marry me, only for me to take off around the country on tour, the hero who covered my half of the rent for years, while I peddled my knob gags to the public for bucket change.

What woman. How did you meet and did you know when you first met in real life that you would end up getting married? That's a great question. No, I didn't think it was going to get married. I knew that it was the most beautiful. person I've ever seen in my life, but that doesn't equate to us getting... Oh, shut up.

But that doesn't mean I get to marry that person. I was performing at a festival in Manchester called Sparkle Festival. It makes it seem like all of my life is about being transgender. This happens to be the national transgender festival. She'd never seen a transgender person before in her life, and she came in to find some alcohol, and I was on stage. And then she saw me play, and she Facebook stalked me and showed up at the festival the next year to introduce herself.

And then she proposed to me in some mud at the same festival a year later. We did meet in between that time. Yeah. That would have been a shot. And then she moved down the country, city by city, because she didn't want to scare me by moving to my town first. So she went, it was like, Manchester, my geography's now going to be proved to be terrible. Manchester, Bolton, somewhere else, Luton, Essex, where I live.

And she, like, lost all of her stuff in the meantime. Because everywhere she went, it was like, nuclear. She went Luton for her start. She lost most of her stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're going to. She's amazing. That is such a big, romantic. wonderful gesture. But it's creepy if you follow it. I followed people on the train and that

seemed as creepy. But that's not creepy. That's romantic. Everything sounds more romantic if you get married at the end of the story. I think that's it. When they never notice you and you were just walking behind them, it is weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Slip a ring on their finger when you're walking behind them and then it's not creepy anymore. Exactly. You're like, you're mine. They're like, don't touch me. Your eyes went wide. I've only known you very briefly, but your eyes went wider than any human I've ever seen when you did that. I have big expressive eyes, okay, okay? Right, what a wonderful love story.

And Dane, you've never actually done the dating thing, as you say, but you have managed to end up in a relationship. How did that happen with no dating? And why do you not like you not like dating? Well, I should explain the dating thing. It's not like I've never done dating. It's just that I grew up in South East London where we don't necessarily refer to the courtship processes dating.

Like, you'd go on what's called a link, which I guess is almost like, it's not exactly like a fuck buddy, but I guess the principle is that I'm not going to go and speculatively hang out with somebody hoping that they'll like me. I establish that there is chemistry

and this person does view me as a sexual being before I leave my house. There's been instances where I have dated and kind of work out, but I think sometimes there's like a window of chemistry and if you kind of miss it, then sometimes people feel like it may have passed. So there's almost like a moment

and if you don't capitalize on it, it doesn't happen. So historically for myself, it's more been meeting somebody that I already established some form of chemistry or sexual connection with them and then pursuing that to its end. Yeah. Whereas going on dates is just, it's not me. Like, I'm not going to meet somebody after work. You don't want to see me after work. I'm in a terrible mood. So, yeah. And then, so I'm in a relationship. I met my partner on social media where I guess I've met most people. in the last couple of years. I suppose, because I guess I've had the benefit of being quite visible anyway, so people kind of have some context of who I am,

and social media's probably lent to people being able to approach me without, you know, worrying about being kidnapped, because you have to when you're a woman, I guess. But yeah, my partner's cool. We've been together about two years, and two years and some change, and she didn't even know I was a comedian,

which is... Being with you. That's a shocking environment. Feels that way sometimes. I'll make a joke because she'd be like, you're kind of funny. I'd be like, I know, it's my job. She's like, really? But yeah, she heard about me through a podcast. And she listened to a podcast and she said that, you know,

it was nice to find someone. So nice to feel less alone in the world. And that's the point of our connection. So are you telling me, slalding to someone's DMs after hearing one podcast works? Yeah. Okay. I mean, it works with me.

Moten. It works with me, but I've always been somebody where, like, I feel massively flattered and complimented if someone makes the effort to express that to you in the first place. So I'll indulge most people. But I've also had to learn over time that sometimes that can lead people as well. I say I've had to learn. I've been told off for doing that shit. So, yeah.

Forced to learn. So from your position of critical distance as a non-data data in a traditional dating sense, What do you think the rest of us are getting wrong when it comes to dating in the kind of chaos of the digital world, I suppose? I think it's very similar to being off of line. I feel like sometimes we've under the misconception that there is a new pool of people that exist online and you can avoid the people that you've been dealing with in your normal day-to-day or environment and there is a whole new crop of potential suitors online. That is not how it works. like algorithms are also very fucking lazy and they will definitely try and suggest

matches to you based on region or kind of criteria especially if you set your radius to like you know quarter mile a few kilometres I think I think it's just tough though as we have discussed Emma I feel like the biggest problem with dating largely is that your success is based on you stating criteria that you want from people and no one necessarily leads with their honest self

when it comes to dating we're all trying to project a most idealised version of self and I think as wanky as it sounds it's more about what you have to offer rather than what you want I think following a lot of experiences was like breakups and some relationship-based trauma my personal viewpoint is that you definitely have to set a standard for yourself and definitely create a foundation of self-love because that helps you to set the standard and that's what should feed into your dating criteria more than any superficial criteria because then when you see a red flag

self-love will make you act on that red flag rather than you bypass it for the sake of coupling or togetherness so I think the aggressive clapping in the front would suggest that we agree I actually think that

you know you said that you project the better version online I think I come across as crazy when you first meet me because I'm so intense to texting no because I am a writer I love to talk and I find it very hard to hold back so I just kind of the word

vomit comes and I actually think I'm probably better maybe potentially in real life I'm projecting the worst version of myself I disagree I disagree and I don't think I am worse in real life I don't think you should contextualize it as that something like that as a flaw and this is the thing as well is that it's I didn't think it's a flaw

it's not at all but it's much more but it's much more of a reflection of the people that might be engaging with or matching with in the first place because I said before I do consider it a massive compliment when anyone kind of makes the effort

to kind of express a part of themselves to you in the first place that's always kind of been my thing where it's like you know some people like they might if you find someone who approaches you unattractive and you have the you comment on that that says more about you

than it does about that person because they've the one that's taken a step in the first place or made that leap of faith so I don't really think it's a bad thing I feel like I'm underappreciated. Massively. Yes.

You know, one of the reasons I did this podcast is because when me and Emma met, she told me a story about a carrot. Oh. A carrot. Remember that story? It's during the pandemic and we were doing some content for Soho. And we were talking about like Christmas and Thanksgiving. And then Emma said, one time I had a carrot and you can finish it if you want. And like there was no other way of pleasuring myself around.

So I used a carrot. So just for some content. that I love that you brought that up. As much as you need after that story, but go ahead. It was, I had read this feminist website, Betty Dodson, you know, the feminist in America who says that you should only masturbate with vegetables. Every feminist knows that. What's going on here?

Every feminist knows that. What is this, the hands I may tell you know what she's talking about. because something to do with nature being good and she did recommend a courgette which I could understand would have been softer and nicer but as I said Eddie you right pointed out I was at home for Christmas with my parents and I know you said Christmas did you get it off a snowman's face

was it Christmas or was it one that was left out for the reindeer left out the reindeer Which I thought actually I could put that to better use We know the reindeer's ain't coming But this is, I will be So You know what? It was, that was good

But for any listeners of the podcast Any listeners that are younger That still believe in Santa Claus, it's real Is it really real? Totally real. Oh yeah, yeah, that's... And actually, you know what? I got nothing that year, coal.

Because it's what happens If you take a reindeer's carrot, you get punched. So, Santa knows. If any listeners who are 12, 10, maybe you're listening to this, probably switch off now. But yeah, so thank you. I'm glad that I made an impression.

That is true. How can somebody not like that? Yes. That's a story. That's how I feel. You know what? Maybe I should lead without the dating apps. Hi, my name is Emma.

I am right for God. And let me tell you about that Christmas when I followed the feminist queen, Betty Dodson, to a carrot. Anyway, it wouldn't happen again only because I wouldn't recommend a carrot genuinely, it wasn't good, it was too hard and very cold but I do think...

You've got it off a snowman's face. Yes, exactly. I'd put it in the oven for a little bit. There is a world in which a room temperature courgette would have been delightful and if you are ever stuck without a toy I would suggest

whipping out a corgette. Moving swiftly on to Katie Rather than asking you what your preferred vegetable toy is, I will instead ask you about your toxic four-year situation ship, which feels like a nice way of continuing this. So you have recently come... Masturbating with vegetables. So you were in a toxic relationship.

Yeah, so you're alone too. So you get it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all be about in there. You and me, vegetables, got hurt, just, you know, you must, honey. So tell me, we must all applaud you for getting out of this. You know what? I'm not going to take it. Oh, she's back in. I'm not, isn't that I... Oh, no.

It's not let him back in because I feel like, I don't know when, when is it over, you know? When you say it's over, it's over. All right, well... It means not going back. Okay. Have you gone back? Can you still text them? No.

Okay. No, you have to block. Hold your applause. Okay. No applause for Katie. So then I guess I changed my question. Rather than asking what forced you out of the toxic tangleweed of your, of this particular a situation ship, I guess why are you still in it?

No, I think I'm trying. You know, I think it's very difficult to, you know, when you're like, wait, we can be friends. You can't. You know? No, you can't. Okay. But why?

I love Katie. He's like, you're all right, Emma, yeah, we can't be friends. Maybe in your experience. We all think we're different. I was in the same position and it was only the day that I blocked him on all channels and stopped talking to him and he never said anything even though he worked in the same office

and I see him every day that I was like yeah you were lying about everything weren't you? I blocked him once and then I felt bad I felt so bad I'm like this is so rude

to block you from my life you know which is testament why he don't fucking deserve you and he does that's okay that's how you're supposed to sound

at this point how long has it been now it's been four years now four years and Since you left the relationship. Oh, wait, no, wait. I thought you meant since I've been. Oh, how long, since we haven't.

So you probably, it's going to. We haven't spoken in three days, but then you text me. So that's 48 months, and they say it'll be a third of that time. But I don't know how to stop speaking. I don't, I don't know where. Trust me, you'll get a message. From him? Yeah.

I've been waiting. I know, but he'll tell you something. But there's been so many moments where I'm like, this should be it. Yeah. This should be it. Can you give us an example? Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

There's been so many. We went on holiday and he told me a few days before that I couldn't take any photos because he told me because he told people, he told people he was going on a meditation retreat. And that, and if I took photos, then because I was like, well, I'm going to take photos of myself. And he was like, why would, why? Why do you need the validation? And I was like, oh, but like, but like, what about me on the beach? Like, that was, I said that was a red flag.

I'd say the first red flag was, he had, he had more than one phone, okay? He had three phones. I'd say, I'd say that could have been. Now, now, he could be a drug dealer. And that, exactly. But the thing is, is that one time I heard him, he accidentally called me and I heard him on the phone with another girl. And when I, like, he went through the tunnel and then I phoned on that, like, I phoned

again because all the connection got lost. And I was like, who were you just speaking to? And he was like, oh, like, my colleague from work. And I was like, you don't have a job. Like, you don't have a job. Like, that is just so. Wait, kidding. Why doesn't he have a job?

I don't know. A red flag? I don't know. He's just following his dreams, you know. And women are. his dreams. I'm also, I mean, to be fair, I love someone who is very organized and to be, to have the organizational skill set to buy three separate phones, to keep your mangled love life in order.

Yeah. I'd say it's to me quite an attractive quality. Just saying. Oh my fucking God. To me, that is akin to turning up to a festival with a pre-charged battery pack. Right. Like, wow. You have three charges on that.

He used to always say, well, you have my main number. And I would be like, oh, my. Wait, was that like, aw? You guys are like, wow. Like, isn't that so cute? That's like when you call, like, a mobile phone company, they go, your call is important to us. It's not important to them.

And you are placed 329 in the queue. I'm almost there. It's not that. I think, but I think, yeah, if I, I could offer some advice. And that's only because my most learned in terms of sex and relationships as a cisgender heterosexual man was from heartbreak. That's what made a man of me, I think.

And I've heard a lot of this Don Julio. Yeah, no, but I definitely understand what you're going through. And I'd say it's probably going to take a third of the time you spent with this person. And yeah, you'll get there at some point. But the process of getting that now because the thing is everyone has their own personal nuanced experience with love and then people say what appears to be

incentive of shit like you'll get over it and you go you don't even fucking know me why would you say some shit like that to me I thought you were friends so but you will in your own personal way and there'll be your own personal journey

but it begins by like I said you have to set a standard for yourself because you are not somebody and I know you weren't enough to say this Katie you're not somebody that deserve someone who don't want to take photos

on fucking holiday with you at the very at the very at the very least at the very least you deserve that and it's easier said than done but the first step begins with just at least the process of prioritising yourself yeah that's difficult though it's no it is it very it is and that's a part of the journey of learning about it but it's the same way like when you're in a shitty job like most of never say i quit you go for a very long process of trying to find another job you stick with it

for like another three months and you say i'll leave after christmas and i'll leave after valentine's day then i'll leave after easter and it continues to build but then once you learn the process of saying fuck this I quit you'll almost like forge a new centre in your brain of stuff you'll put up with and when you won't put up with so again it's i want you to know it's not a indication of weakness on your part it's more part of your strength of loving somebody even when they're not reciprocating but yeah you just need to begin that process which means even if it's like even if you still feel you need to hear from this person wait for them to fucking call you first time for a quick ad break courtesy of our podcast lord sponsor dating app field field holds

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And there are those moments. I do remember when I was in my bad situation ship. When he just got out his dick in public again and whank, not in a show, on a park bench, and it was a kids' part. I mean, there are, you know, there's like, you know, there's time, there's TV and then there is park kids, park bench. and I think and wanking on me was something that was not ideal when I hadn't said yes

and so he did that and then he was just like looking at me and I was lovingly like oh does this mean that he loves me now and he was like we're just going to continue like this until one of us finds a relationship aren't we and I was like oh you see me as the in between oh I get this and at that moment I was like

okay no we're done and then just had one more time that day so I was like we have because I was well I was like I can not let you go having term me on like this and not have sex something because that's not fair because then you have got your cake and eaten it and I'm starving and I feel like you fucking him was not really the punishment you think

it is. It was not. I'm going to give him some pussy one more time. That'll show him. I'll show him what he's missing. Can I just say giving men pussy is the worst lesson you can give them? So I want to move on now to how we sustain love. when eventually we find it if we do we might tap out of this now no we know what we have to have hope so first up Jordan wait no I've moved on to section three so when it comes to love and romance I think often in popular culture we end up becoming a bit fixated on the finding of love

and the pursuit of love and that's the kind of the goal as though it kind of ends with the finding it and that's like happily ever after and then you're all done but as we know the hard hard work starts really when you find love. Tell me what sustains your marriage with Heli? We've had probably like 10 or like 10 to 15 of those down to your core excavating all your trauma conversations, allowed it to heal over, scar over, giving it some time, broken it again. Definitely something to be said for it's like it's such a cliche but it's never about the dishes is like written on both of our foreheads like on the inside. It's never, so we've both got like a guy gar counter, you know like the radioactive

guy guy counter for us being overly emotional about something that is disproportionate to the thing that's happening. There's something on the carpet and one of us cries about it. It's probably not about the finger on the carpet. It's probably about something else. And we never waste that opportunity to go to our childhood trauma in that moment. It means that we spend a lot of time on childhood trauma but there's hardly any left now. So we're both like empty, clean, cleaned out fish bowls of people. So everything is pretty baseline. Everything's like, it's really exciting when good stuff happens. It never goes bad. But we worked really hard and we didn't shout at each other a lot. We're not those sorts of people, but we've done loads of crying, but on our own in

rooms. Exactly what we all need? And then what made you decide to explore threesome and kind of group sex and so bringing in other people to sexual dynamic. And how did you establish what you were both comfortable with and what your boundaries were there? I think we had a turbulent troubleshooting period where it didn't work because we went into not to mix metaphors but we went in too hard, too fast

with someone and it was ill conceived, ill thought out. There's something really nice about because what we do for a living like what you say most of the time people are approaching us and there would have been a time five or six years ago where that would have been a point of contention and jealousy from both of us like not being sure

me feeling guilty, her feeling jealous. She's got nothing to be jealous She's the most amazing person in the world. But now, it's really exciting when someone slides into my DMs because we share the DMs. She's got my password. So she can see if people are talking to me. It's a really nice, like, in.

And also people are really excited when we show up places to do our comedy, right? It's just like, I've got no game. I have no game because I've never had to have any game because people just see you do stuff on stage. And they either don't like it or they like it. And if they like it, into the DMs. So, yeah, we both get excited. I don't know that, but sure.

Guys, slide into my DMs. please. I'm joking, I'm joking. Okay, so this is the sweetest podcast in the world. Constantly under your breath. You're like, I was only joking. Just joking.

I'm just joking. Not really. Yeah, I feel very childish now. Okay, so essentially therapies all the moments, so therapies, even the kind of the carpet got ruined and share a password

to your social media account is what I hear there. Also, like, therapyising, she's a legitimate counsellor. I'm not one of those at all. I'm the other side of the spectrum. I just grew up. up as a teenage boy that thought there was really clever and then retreated into

like Richard Dawkins and whatever the equivalent is now who turned out to be a really nasty horrible man it's such a shame but it was a rock style when I was little don't therapy as if you're that person it's really hard to say like if we all think we're really nice clever intelligent people until we find out that we're not. Therapising for the sake of protecting your own ego terrible therapyising for the sake of cleaning yourself and other people out yourself first then aiding somebody else that's really helpful not just trying to fix someone like a robot Which we will get on to momentarily. Oh, my God, when we talk about sex robots.

That would be a good segue. Wait, but we have other things we have to cover before the sex box. So we have to put a pin in it, as Ezra Klein always says. Dane, oh, this is juicy. When we spoke, you mentioned to me how you see amongst your friends, a lot of people still struggling, I suppose, with the Madonna versus Hall complex in their, your male friends with regards to how they see people they sleep with,

the long-term partners. Can you explain for us what you meant by this, Madonna Vass Hall Complex, and how you've personally avoided falling into that sort of pattern or set up with your own relationship? So basically, it's because men are taught a lot of the time that sex is something they have to trick women out of. And so by that same token, they're not particularly vocal about what their needs are. And a lot of time, as I'm sure a lot of women too, can attest to, when men have particular kinks, it's like they try to trick you into it or try to use some form of intoxicant rather than having the honest conversation. And what I've been able to learn is I'm just prepared to have the honest conversation

and also that there is the physical display of love takes any on various different forms. There is nothing that I wouldn't want a long-term partner to do that I wouldn't want a fuck buddy to do. And just explain, so just for anyone who doesn't know the Madonna versus whole complex is, can you just explain it for us? So a lot of the time for some men, men have this idea that there are certain sex acts that a woman that they might be seeing casually can perform

that somebody that they would want to have children with or have a long-term relationship with or marry can't perform and obviously it's this idea where like you could be pressured as a woman to perform a particular sex act to someone you care about and you do it as an act of love and then he's like well I can't do that I can't be with a girl like that because she did this for me and I'm not somebody of that school

because it doesn't make any fucking sense but your friends still are your friends still are they're not my friends anymore to be honest of you because part of that's also learned that there doesn't have to be groupthink when it comes to my sexual proclivity and that's another thing that holds back men as a large part of the complex of toxic masculinity is that people act like someone else's paying rent in their fucking bedroom and they're not so whatever you do with someone that makes you feel comfortable is entirely your prerogative

and I think with the commodification of the sensationalism of like sex and romance there is this idea that we're supposed to have some kind of standard and certain things that are done maybe on a first or second date and that is not the case. Like someone who has a degradation kink is not somebody that I would view any differently to somebody who prefers to have sex missionary style, basically. And that's because I guess it's understanding that it's a means to an end

and really the physical expression of love or attraction really pales in comparison to what is much more of an emotional or spiritual connection. but it took me being fucking dumped to realize this so but yeah I think with a lot of men yeah just have this complex

where they feel it's like a lot of men will as I'm sure you may have your stories they'll not tell you what they want then you find out their browser history whereas I'm somebody that it's more about I'm just like look I'm pretty open as long as it's not water sports or hard sports

and we'll talk and we'll just work it out that's true by the way interesting my mind has gone to wakeboarding when you say water sports but i may don't think you mean that oh no it's it's much worse okay okay okay i'm like but i really want to kinkshame anybody wakeboard i want to water ski and surf but yeah different would do it's different yeah but if you if you like pee and peeved on that is entirely a prerogative too water sports that is what we mean peeing on yes yes yes that is also what i'm thinking to peeing katie so this

obviously this section we're looking at sustaining love but I guess I'm interested with you given that you were telling us about your situation ship what you're actually looking for in love so what are you looking for in a relationship so I guess what about your situation has kept you enthralled

for these years I think that's quite a difficult question because I feel like the longer that I've stayed with him the more I realize it's not a lot about him is it, it's more it's me. I feel like love is just quite scary. I think it's quite scary to be loved. I think that's something that I'm really scared about or scared of. So I think

that it's so much easier being with somebody who I can, I think cares about me in a certain way, but then doesn't actually show it because then it's like I'm proving myself right, that I'm not lovable or whatever. So I think it's, it's like, it's like, And it's a big, him is a problem, I guess. But the biggest issue is how I view myself. So I think it's hard. I think what I'm looking for in love, I think it has to be more about how I view myself

than what I'm looking for in a relationship. That's really interesting. And I think that is so, that really resonates because I think it's in a kind of perverse way, unconsciously, we do look to the outside world to confirm the beliefs we already have, that kind of confirmation bias. And I definitely think that is so true with relationships. You almost pursue that same pattern with people

because it allows us to maintain the belief that we have about ourselves. And whether that is, and even when we recognise that that belief is a bad one and it's one that we don't like and we don't want to maintain, it's much easier to stay within that cycle of repetition because we, familiarity is comfortable and we and I say that we

am like yeah me for sure but you keep following that pattern you're like yeah but this makes me I then get and it also allows you to kind of play out the story you have in your head whatever that may be of like but I'm this kind of person I do this kind of thing and this is the person I go for and this is how it goes

each time and then you're like wait I'm here again wait what? Okay so you're so it's a work and progress of discovering I guess what you need to find in yourself to be able to understand what you'd be able to then want in love yeah i think i think it needs to be i think i need to be more ready and more secure in in myself than because i feel like everything i go into is just i'm still like i'm so worried about what they think of me than what i think of them

and and i think that it's just i've never been in something where i'm like oh this feels secure this feels great it's always like oh no there's just so much like anxiety there's so much anxiousness and like I it's the more I mean I've recently started therapy so it's it's interesting going back and being like oh yeah well he's not different than the other guy and then the other guy so yeah I don't know who else resonates that as well has done that before no you're coming oh yeah no no that is and I think it's a really recognizable pattern I think again as I say we do it, we do it again, and we say, we call it out to our friends and still we're like, oh, and here I am again.

So, but recognising the pattern, that's the way of breaking it. So if everyone who is in a similar position, that is the first step, that moment you go, no. Right. No, I'm no, for me it was that text I sent me like, I'm not your waiting room, I'm the goddamn castle. I was like, ooh, okay. That was gross. Oh, wow, let me right then. Down.

Hey, I'm still trying to work out what my castle means. I was like, what the fuck are the castle? I don't know, but I was like, it seems. Because where Kate is from? Castle is a fast food restaurant. Yeah. I am white castle. I am the fast food restaurant that I've always wanted in my life.

It just felt like the superior thing to the waiting room, which I thought felt, like the most superior. The bet that you'll know you're over it is that in the terms of the stages of loss or grief, it's indifference. That's the difference. Not even when they're around, you get pissed off or not even when they're around you get angry. It's when you're like, they're around. Yeah. That's when you know you're over it.

It's so satisfying. You never think you're going to get then. Then one day you're like, I can't be bored to text that person. And you're like, yeah, motherfuckers, I am the castle. We're going to move on to a section I've titled, which I've stolen from you, Dane, question everything, which is the name of your podcast.

So I've stolen that from you. Thank you. and this is so when we do this and sex talks a lot is very much around focusing on moving away from playing out reductive gender stereotypes in the context of dating and relationships. So for example

men are always always want sex. It's a woman's duty to please a man and prioritise his pleasure, that's the thing. I think in every sex talks event we do, in the discussions that we have, we're always looking to challenge the kind of baked in assumptions that end up

guiding how we behave without us really realising. So they're acting at that unconscious level. We're big on challenging these sheds. So, Jordan, first of all, I want to turn to you. I think what you're doing with your show and the conversation that you have on your podcast are so important, I think, particularly now

in this political moment, because of how you prompt your audience to question and critique the experience of gender in a way that is so joyful and celebratory, you really bring fun to what I'm, are incredibly important conversations. Such a lovely way of describing that podcast. If anyone goes and listens to it now,

they'll know that that is a massive, wonderfully cerebral description of a show where, again, I mostly talk about that man. But yeah, we do occasionally. But your show is off, but the way that, and I haven't able to get to a show yet, but I was watching as much as I could online, and just there is this, you bring this joy to the stage.

You're like, quite literally, like jumping around, dancing around, playing the piano, singing. It's just such a kind of, in the best way, kind of sensory overload and watching it or just like happy child. And you describe yourself as a toddler having fun. When I get nude at the end of my hour long show, build up to it, but there's something to be said for when you get your favourite toy at Christmas when you were six

and you couldn't think of anything else to do than get naked and run around because you were so excited. It's that. There's no titillation to it. It's not a titillating experience. It's not burlesque. It's not gone in a second. You pull a string and it all comes off in one go. It's a childish thing.

And I think it's in reaction to the idea that transgender people were so sexualised because the brain goes, genitals, genitals, genitals, genitals, what's going on with the genitals? They're here. They don't mean nothing. It's more fun to run around and be an idiot than focus on what's going on. Totally. And I think, and we spoke about when we had a chat before, I think we all have so much to learn from the transgender experience. And so far as I think we should all be questioning, as I said, the myriad baked assumptions

that come hand in hand with how we've been taught to perform our gender. I know you say transgender people represent freedom that isn't afforded to other people. What do you think everyone can learn and learn to question about themselves from the kind of freedom of the transgender experience to describe it? Yeah, that's not an original sort of quote for me. It's, I forgot their bloody name. Alan Merrick, Alec Menin.

I'm so sorry, I can't remember their name. But this is this wonderful idea that I think the reason why people are a little bit charged about transgender people at the moment. It always happens in a time when there's a terrible economy and people's freedom's being taken away. Because we transgressed a barrier that's pretty set in stone for most people. And no one died or exploded. I changed gender, but I'm still alive and happy. And that it sort of shouldn't be allowed to exist. Because if I can do that, then how come other people's knees still hurt or they've not got any money?

And it's like, it's a freedom that. So when I say a freedom that we're afforded, it's, yeah, it's that ability. you have to go through a bit of a traumatic thing but we came out the other side happy so that sort of makes you assess a lot there's also the whole gendered thing is really sweet it's so easy to make me happy because all my partner

would have to do for example it's a very heteronormative idea that the man is the big spoon and the girls the little spoon but when you're just a tall woman of course she's we use she says she's my backpack instead of me being the little spoon so then I'm still gets to be and it's the silliest little gendered thing

but little stuff like that and it feeds back to what you were saying about castles and waiting rooms, right? Imagine that came back. It came back. We get so obsessed with our own mythology. And our brains are designed with storytelling creatures and the metaphors that we use to explain our lives and our relationships. A flower budding, for example.

We all sort of know what a flower does. It grows. It buds and it dies. It doesn't come back. It doesn't go backwards. That's what that does. So if you've contextualized your love and relationship in the metaphor of a flower, it's only going to go one way.

You've chosen a waiting room in a castle, which I think it's quite a steady investment in metaphorical sense. It's quite good. But changing that around, and when you change from one gender to another, you adopt a whole new set of metaphors that people like to use. So I've been allowed to live a life where I've experienced both gendered metaphors. I now feel like a lone wolf, but that's not language that's typically used for women up to a certain period of time.

The man is the lone wolf. And women 100,000 years ago were thought of as being social creatures that kept the tribe together. It's all very Jordan Peterson. It's all, just forget all that shit. There's bullocks. But it's nice that when you allow yourself to change the metaphor, that is essentially what we are. We're just stories that we tell ourselves with meat attached.

Oh, stories you tell ourselves with meat attached. Our body's not the stories. Unless that's a metaphor, you decide to choose. Exactly. You don't know what I'm having in my castle, so we don't know. It's a white castle. We know it's a beast. It's a beef burger. Exactly. Exactly. And it's huge.

and can I ask? We've talked about relationships and kind of sustaining growing love and I'm just curious to know with you, did transitioning influence your experience of your role within your relationship or your expectations

that you have in your relationship and then vice versa what you expect from your partner and their role in your relationship? Oh, that's so cool. Right, so my wife, I swear she'd never seen a transgender person before or if she did, she, no, chance so she did, statistically, just didn't know what it was.

And I don't still now think that that has changed, like, at all. She doesn't, she hasn't registered what that is. She's just that type of person. She grew up in a hamlet with, like, 12 people in the middle of the Czech Republic. She doesn't really, like, she's the smartest person, I know. I'm not selling her as, like, she's never seen a human before. Like, her favorite toy when she was a kid was a potato with a fork in it. It was literally, she had nothing.

She had absolutely nothing. But, like, oh, I know. yeah she's like everything's okay with her she doesn't have the language to describe being pansexual but she probably is you know what I mean

labels weren't a part of her life so it's really really nice that it's not every conversation we go into isn't about being gendered she naturally looks after people I was brought up to not be looked after obviously to be the provider

I am now the provider but I get just because of circumstance she could have been I just happen to have had this career but I'm the little one that she protects and I'm really happy with that that feeds back into itself really, really nicely. She looks after me, she loves looking after me,

and I love that in my sort of quite cold, calculated lizard brain, I can, I can provide. Do you know what I mean? That maybe isn't super healthy, but it's all I've got sometimes because I'm away so often. It's not as good as quality time together, but we understand that cycle with each other. It's nice.

I like my wife. Aww. So in a way, what I'm hearing that is, in the context of your relationship it just sounds like you've kind of peeled back any sort of specific expectations or kind of pre-allocated roles that one might anticipate going into relationship

and you both kind of come on each other as you are as humans in that moment. Is that right? Yes, there was no improvement on that sentence that's exactly this. We just come at each other like two people sometimes literally. It's really nice, it's a nice experience and I'm a foot taller than she is and I have no, I don't get any dysphoria opening pickle jars and stuff. It's nice sometimes you just do things, but that is a question sometimes.

And maybe in somebody else's hands, that might make me feel uncomfortable, but it's not a question in our house. That's obviously, you please understand that that's so reductive thing to say, if I wasn't transgender and I'm coming out from that perspective, obviously anyone can open a pickle jar. I'm really good at it, right? But that's because of the latent testosterone that's coursing through my body. In my cast, I am the best.

called chart open it. You have cracked that thing on the floor and I'll put open. We've brought some with us tonight. Here we go. What I opened, cracked open for us earlier. Snacks for the panel. And Dane, so you have an entire podcast based on questioning everything, hence why I stole

this from you. And you recently had sex expert and the internet's favorite Agnion, Aloni who's also come on the Sex Talks podcast, so everyone make sure you listen to that episode. And you discussed on the show male sexuality, and particularly the specific rigidity of heteronormitivity for straight men.

Is there anything that you had to unlearn or challenge about your own idea or ideas of masculinity and the assumptions that accompany being the man in a heteronormative relationship within the context of your current relationship? I didn't personally, and the reason for that is because I was a virgin until I was 18. And so everything I'd heard regarding sex had all been anecdotal. and it wasn't until I had the experience myself that I realised that most of those anecdotes were lies so I guess for me I'm kind of a overthinker

and can be very neurotic about how I'm viewed but maybe that kind of positively manifesting that I do endeavour to be kind of a pleaser because I think like the shame of not closing that orgasm gap is much worse than trying to appear as having a high level of sexual proclivity amongst men so yeah it's never really been a problem I guess it's been, I had enough time and enough solace to be introspective with myself enough

in terms of what I wanted from sex. And I also had the privilege of my earliest sexual experiences were positive ones, both in terms of like discourse and in terms of like just the physical acting stuff as well. It's because like when I was growing up, like not being fucking killed was more important than like whether or not you lose your virginity. So I saw a gun before I ever saw a vagina. Wow. So when you have that kind of experience.

is kind of like removes the kind of hysteria from it and also I grew up in a household like my mom's got like six sisters and then all of my aunts have got like two daughters so it's very hard for you to not be able to learn in that environment so I think yeah a large part of it is being able to obviously historically always be able to humanize women first before viewing them as sexual beings who interviewed slumflower right on the podcast and you discussed a recent report that was looking into the the rate of loneliness amongst men and touching on a lot of the issues

that have become very topical at the moment when it comes to the so-called crisis of masculinity brought to the fore in quite a humorous way with the new Barbie film and Just Ken. Do you think that we are in a crisis of masculinity? Obviously, you know, so for a long time, men have been able to be a ruling minority on a global scale for a long time.

And there have been no progressive movements in terms of galvanising these men in order to see how we, where their place is going to be in the face of, you know, automation and the proliferation of artificial intelligence, because for so many years, masculinity has been linked to your occupation. And so as these things are beginning to erode and these other bases that men form for their ego or their self-image are beginning to erode, no one's thought of a backup in the first place. Even though we're all making the assessment that there's a crisis of masculinity and men

are feeling that they are a lot more obsolete in today's world, it's not a conversation they are having en masse with each other because a large part of toxic masculinity is that we don't express that we're afraid of shit, including the future, including the future. So we're not having that conversation collectively. Really, it's not a conversation about trying to mitigate men's feelings. A large part of being a man is that you take this shit on the chin and we talk about how fucked we are. And until men are prepared to do that, then there's not going to be any progress because you blaming women for all this stuff. Listen, you've had many years to make it work as men. Many, many, many. They let Ben Affleck be two superheroes. And he didn't deserve to be

one. And nobody complained then, but all of a sudden, when you're seeing women leading superhero films, everyone's going fucking crazy. Like George Clooney weren't a Batman with nipples. So, it only seems to be now that men are having these conversations about ourselves but I just feel like the larger conversation about what is really leaving men marginalised is not a conversation we are prepared to have because men are more than aware that they are able to leverage capitalism and patriarchy historically for power and they understand that if maybe we begin to get rid of these kind of economic systems that create this kind of inequality they won't be able to just naturally ascend into the power structures

they've historically been used to so unless men are a lot of men are prepared to be like some people are going to lose the shit that we take for granted we're not going any fucking way and it's that simple there are a lot of men who understand if women have a choice they're not getting fucking chosen

and so they will need to learn what we have to do about better in ourselves to make ourselves a better choice I'm Jordan even to say something this podcast is amazing this is incredible I am a bit like continue to continue to talk

okay so we are usual you have stunned me with your lovely, wonderful questions and actually many stories. So what we're going to do, panel, rapid fire answers. So I want, I mean, we never sit there, but we're going to try. I want one sentence. I want little tiny nuggets of wisdom and then we move on. So we are going to rapid fire through. So, question, is it acceptable for a man to call, wait, is it emotional when he says, I think you've been emotionally, is it acceptable for a man to call you irrational for expressing extreme emotion when he says,

I think you've been emotionally manipulating me. Oh. So in reaction to I think you're being, your emotion and manipulating me, for you to have an emotional reaction to that, is it okay for them to then call you irrational? Basically, is the question, is this a valid argument? I think you're being emotional,

I think that you're emotionally manipulating me. Is that something that requires a big emotional response? Or is that an okay thing to say to a person? Oh, yeah. if they're emotionally manipulating you definitely say that but we don't know if they are the thing is I suppose at the end of the day you cannot no actually you can control your emotions that's the whole thing we should try and do

I guess it's always about having it's the space between the action and the reaction and so if anyone I guess if you get any sort of feedback in the context of relationship like you're emotionally manipulative is mean or something I guess it's taking a step back from that and processing what that person has said and seeking to understand where they may be coming from and then returning to the situation

to give your response. So I don't think any like reactions like wrong or bad or good or whatever but I do think having a bit of distance from that moment can then often elicit the most thought through and therefore productive response that will then foster

I think a healthier more productive conversation that you can then have with that person. Rapid fire. Rapid fire. Was that rapid? That wasn't very rapid. I do not do rapid. Once a cheat, always a cheat. Is that true, or is there hope? There's hope, but they just need a reason to change.

And you might not necessarily be that reason or catalyst, but that is not a reflection of you. That's the person, because sometimes it takes for someone losing somebody for them to change. And unfortunately, you can't necessarily be a part of the journey that results from that. But myself personally, I had to look into myself as to why I exhibited some behaviour, and I took a little bit of therapy. but I was able to change. But just because someone doesn't change because of you

doesn't mean that you're not good enough, which I think is the real subtext of that question. Thanks. I am very good at switching off the sex mode. Oh, okay. I can go from moaning to perfectly normal conversation. If only my mum knew how many times I had a chat with her on the phone

while getting banged from behind. I love that, that I forgot to ask, but we also do confessions at sex talks, and these confessions are fire tonight. For Katie, how do you think we can best support people who find themselves in toxic situationships and avoid shaming and alienating them further? I think listening, I think giving them distractions,

I think also not like getting mad at them for talking to the person again. think trying to understand where they're coming from more but I think also like maybe creating more spaces in which they can get out or like make like be more like do more activities together or like notice the points in which they return and then you got you got the same compassion for someone going through heartbreak as somebody who's got substance abuse problems because they never stop wanting it they just having to learn to live every day without it so anyway anyone coping with loss, you don't get over that immediately. And sometimes you never get over it. It's just that you have to get used to being able to get through a day. That's why they say

with alcoholism or whether it's substance abuse, it's one day at a time. And you have to approach somebody dealing with heartbreak or someone who feels they're experiencing unrequited love with the same compassion, like a day at a time. I often don't necessarily feel excited by my partner. I've got used to our relationship as it is. And I'm unsure whether or not this needs to change and I need to make changes I'm biased but I think

change is a good thing always so we think this person needs to dump them oh no I didn't mean to elicit that that's what I interpreted from your rapid fire response it's too rapid wouldn't it it was too rapid

you lose a lot of nuance in the rapidity of a moment change is good but do it with love in your heart at a certain point being rapid affects the quality of the answer one thing I say is just saying I don't feel excited by my moment I think at certain points in a long-time relationship you don't necessarily feel excited by your partner but you can create the excitement for the things that you're doing

so rather like they're probably not good if you're waking up to them next to them every single morning they're shitting in front of you that maybe not in front of you but you know maybe in front of you totally fine that is a cool kink but you're probably not going to feel as excited like thrilled by them but you could still plan things together that make you feel super excited, whether that is water sports of the conventional variety or the less conventional variety, but things that get you doing things together that kind of bring that, like, spark back.

This is why I say it's, like, important about you making yourself whole because when you're always working on your own personal growth and evolution, that new person you are developing into is always able to return and go back to serving that relationship. Like when you feel like you're a whole new person, you're able to do things. to make you a better person or have a new experience, then you can always come back with that new experience and feed back into that relationship. So sometimes you've got to do shit without your partner

to make your partnership better. Love. Why can't I ever get to date too? I like shagging on the first date. So this is actually a great question because I think about this often. Yeah. Whether you, there's that whole thing,

I think there's so much pressure on women particularly to like hold something back. Like if you have sex with someone in the first date, you have some, you've given them everything you have, and therefore you've given too much, and there's no chance for a second date. And I, we have to, most like the thing is, if you don't see them again, it was never going to work out anyway. But Katie, would you have sex in the first date? Yes, but then I never release to a second, so I don't know. I think it's, this is, I struggle with a lot because you kind of, you want to have that, that like, I want what I want.

but then sometimes there is that feeling of like you've given something what you have away. So I think on one hand I'm like do whatever your body wants to do. But then on the other hand, it is nice to have a buildup and not in a not in a like I feel like it is and not in a way that's like don't have sex on the first day. But in a way that's like I found that if there's a little bit of a build up, it just makes it better. and I feel more comfortable as well I also think as I get older I find it harder and harder to wake up next to a stranger I'm like

yeah like this is my bed and it freaks me out so I think actually a little bit of familiarity just is nicer worse actually at visit their bed sex used to be really meditative for me my mind was totally

focused on it when it was happening unfortunately I've lost this perhaps due to external job-related stresses what tips do you have for getting my mind back into the bedroom. Quit that fucking shit job. Oh. Yeah. Maybe. It might be what it is. And the thing is like, I don't think, again, the lot of the externalities that we deal with, we don't necessarily feel like they feed into

our sexuality and can definitely affect you, like your confidence can affect you, other stresses can affect you and stuff as well. So yeah, it's much harder to kind of be involved in not just sex or anything that requires your physical and mental focus if you're not having a good time in other parts of your life. So tell that boss to go fuck themselves. And then go fuck yourself. Like you deserve. One thing I'd also say is actually Anne Summers' crew are in the room

and we just did a fab video which I worked with them on focusing on the power of self-pleasure. And this is not like a pay-full plug. I literally just genuinely mean this. But I do think I find, I've said this one sex talks before, but I do find masturbating is a really like meditative process and I think a really good way of getting back into your body. And sometimes I think if it's, you does this person,

doesn't say sex. I'm going to assume it's partner sex, it could be solo sex. But sometimes when you're with someone else, there is always an element of performativity. And there is, even if they are pleasing you and everything, you are still having to like show up for that other person. You're having to kind of put on a bit of a fun show.

Whereas I think, that's true. And then I think when it, but actually so maybe it could be a matter of putting a bit more time into self-pleasure where you can just be alone and focus on your own body without any external pressures without having to please anyone else without having to perform. So you can kind of tap back into your own kind of sexual self alone

and then build up that connection through your orgasm, through a connection with your body that then hopefully will translate to sex in a kind of partnered or group setting outside of that. Can I ask a question that's related to everyone? To take that to its extreme, the meditative self-pleasure, does anyone, and I'll put my hand up first,

so it's not weird, visualize stuff that they want in their life at the moment of orgasm? Like, because you're so connected to, not the universe, I'll get there and then I think of like I'm going to be in a Marvel film one day whatever it is, whatever it is

but like it's just such a pure, yeah I think if there is such a thing as a spiritual realm I don't think there is but if there is that's surely the point at which manifestation masturbation I just think I can't believe this is free I'm like this is wild that I get to feel this good

and pay no money for it I quite like this guy but he's a basic bitch I am not sure I am not sure I can get over this I think you've answered your own question there he's a basic bitch and you can't get over it and I don't think you should force yourself to get over it

so what is a basic bitch in this context yeah we don't know there is no explanation so subjective okay we're going to do final two how do you encourage a partner to up their sex drive can you I think you can but I guess it's again it's a part of being

have an honest conversation about your compatibility and confronting that, or if not, I think again, I can only speak from my perspective, and historically I have found with the libido of women, it's normally the body follows

the mind, so the more comfortable somebody feels, then the more inclined they'll be to explore their sexual proclivity and you'll get more revelations about kinks and stuff. I've been with women and they've been like, I've never slept naked with a person before. because that's how uncomfortable they feel.

That's how much of a barrier, boundary they still have to maintain, even though they're in a sexual relationship with somebody. I legit feel like that, and I have this fear that I'm just going to pee myself in the night. I don't ever pee myself. Like, I don't wet myself in the night, ever. But I have a fear if I'm sleeping with someone,

I'm just going to suddenly become a bedwet and it will be mortifying. And as a result, I have to sleep with knickers on, as if sleeping with niggers on will stop me wetting the bed. It's just, it won't. I have IBS. So my fear is wet, my fear is wet, I'm actually, I'm actually lying. I definitely think I was, I'm like, mine is, I'm like, I would love if I peed.

That'd be great. That'd be ideal. See, in both your cases, I don't think it is about the IBS or the pee. It's a hundred percent anxiety. It's about, yes, anxiety. So, yeah. So, yeah, the key is you have to find somebody that is prepared to help you soothe that anxiety or discuss it.

Final one. Oh, this is a letter. The love letter to Katie. To Katie, I have no question, but just want to say you are stunning. and so genuine. You don't have to have all of your shit together to find love. You can find someone who truly cares for you, who has their own shit, who can love you and support you with their shit. Lots of shit here. And you have IBS, unfortunate. Best of luck. P.S. The panel are awesome. They are. Turning over. Girl, we are in the back like, no! It's hard when your heart

is in it, but access to you in any sense is a privilege. Are you crying yet? You should be. Start with never texting first ever. Be the change, fuck up the cycle. Whoever wrote this? I'm like, build you up. You got this. The bester, Miss Manifesta. Oh, I love you. I love you so much. And I think we are going to leave it there because we have a few more questions and I can't read much of the writing. So thank you. all so much. This has been an absolutely wonderful panel. Thank you again to our sponsor for the evening field. If you haven't downloaded the app yet, why is all I have to ask. This is your signed from the universe to download the app and go on that date or bring them here. So thank you

so much to Field for supporting the live podcast and for supporting this event and obviously to the Edition Hotel and Don Julio. Really massive thanks to them for making this happen. And to my wonderful panel who were all totally brilliant a huge round of applause thank you so much for listening to this live recording of the sex talks podcast with me your host em louise boington this was recorded at the london edition hotel if you'd like to attend sex talks live head on over to the event break link in the show notes as we have lots of exciting live events coming up in the meantime don't forget to submit whatever agni aunt question you like us to tackle on a future episode via the Sex Talks website, that's

sextalks.co.uk. And finally, if you've enjoyed the show, I hope you have, please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to this on. So apparently it helps others to find us. Have a wonderful day.