Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - "Stay away from words of affirmation" with Oloni

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

In this episode, Emma sits down with the Internet's reigning sex and relationships agony aunt, Oloni. She's a writer, a podcaster, the originator of the 'Girls lets have some fun' Twitter thread and, most recently, the author of 'The Big O'. Here they chat through how to overcome sexual shame; learning to embrace your sexuality in whatever way works for you; the importance of sexual pleasure and a whole tonne more. As ever, Oloni and Emma tackle several of your brilliant agony aunt questions. If you want to send your own agony aunt question to the podcast, head on over the sextalks.co.uk. This episode was sponsored by dating app, Feeld. If you want to spice up your summer, all while supporting this podcast, then please do download Feeld using the exclusive download code: feeld.co/sextalks.

Hello and welcome to the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks is dedicated to engendering more open and honest conversations around typically taboo topics, specifically sex, relationships and the future of intimacy. In this Agony-A-Anne-style podcast, I'm putting your sex, dating and general life woes to a guest agony on each week, from how to avoid losing yourself in love, to top tips for exploring kink for the first time, love when you're feeling hopeless, to overcoming sexual shame. Whatever you're struggling with, we got you. Submit your Agnewon Questions on the Sex Talks website. That's at sextalks.com. Okay, I hope you enjoy the show. I am so excited to have Alani on the podcast.

You have been so high in my Sex Talks list of people. I've been desperate to interview for so long. Obviously, you are. For anyone that doesn't know Alonnie, I can't imagine there's anyone listening to this who doesn't, but she's a writer, a podcaster, a sex educator and now a published author of the wonderful book, The Big O, which is an empowering guide to loving, dating and fucking. Which is excellent. Just to start us off, like, why did you write this book and this book particularly? I wanted women to honestly have a more honest and honest and upfront conversation around sex. I think, you know, historically, for a very long time,

we have been written out of sex. And what I mean about that is that there's very little info about female pleasure, our sexuality. And that's just historically and also probably scientifically as well. Well, not probably, definitely scientifically. But then there was culture. And I think the culture around sex, especially as a Black British, first-generational.

is one that is a very unique experience in terms of how we grow up. You know, my parents moved here as both Nigerian, you know, Christians who really just came from a different walk of life. And, you know, they gave birth to kids who had a very, very different outlook on how we see just relationships or friendship or community and sexuality. And I think what I noticed was that a lot of the women who are around me who look like me had no issues talking about relationships. I think especially if you ask any first, you know, first gen, you know, African who was born in this country, we pretty much had similar upbringings in terms of we were taught to, we were basically, our life was more or less an audition to be someone else's wife. And it wasn't as though, you know, it was, it was go to school.

get married and but no talking about boys in between like you can't talk about relationships so you can't have a boyfriend you're supposed to just be done with university and have a husband and bear his kids but we weren't having the conversations about relationships, sexuality, consent,

autonomy, you know, the clitoris. These were conversations we were shy to have so I to just wrap it up and just say the reason why I wrote this book is because I wanted women who looked like me or who didn't look like me but had similar childhood as me to feel empowered through their sexuality

because I grew up with other women as well who had no problem talking about sex but when I talked to my other black friends with my other Nigerian friends it was very hush-hush or sturm or you know don't have too much sex or else you'll be slut shamed and being slut shamed or something that was very heavy within my community, within my culture

and I just wanted women to break free from all these standards that had been placed on us since birth and, you know, realize that we are more than someone else's wife. We are more than, you know, we're not even someone else's sex doll and what it means to just truly have agency of your body and educate yourself properly, understanding the difference between a vulva and a vagina, truly wanting to just, you know, even if they're not having sex. The book is not necessarily for people who want to have sex. You could wait till marriage if you want, but I want you to see. still understand what pleasure is supposed to look and feel like.

And that is pretty much the reason why I wrote the book. Have your parents read it? No. I mean, my mum loves it. Like, she carries it, like, on her head. But, like, she asked me a couple months ago, you know, what does the O stand for? And I was just like, oh, no, we're not there yet. I don't think, I mean, obviously, I'm grown.

So if a conversation around sex happens to happen, you know, like it might happen, but I try to still steer clear away from it because it's, I mean, you know, no matter whether you're a sex educator or not, I just think it can be a bit uncomfortable for many of us to talk to our parents about sex. And I think I'm still that uncomfortable 13 year old who wants to know where babies came from at 13th, like maybe nine years old, like, and asking my mum, of course, like, you know, where do babies come from? And she's just like, God, she wouldn't even tell me. So it gives you an insight into the kind of relationship I have with my mum. It's so funny you say that I'm sitting here, grinning is it, because I think my poor parents, since I set up sex talks, I am the most open person with everything, and I'll call my dad and be like, so I've just met this guy, and I will give him all the details, and he's like, I don't want to hear any of this.

I didn't want to be in them. So why have you called me that you're going to give me a heart attack? But it's interesting, because I think similarly to me, my opinion, growing up my parents, it wasn't something we spoke about. It wasn't something that was part of a conversation, My mum's also very Christian and said to me, you mustn't have sex until you're 18 slash married.

It kind of moved between the two. It was kind of two-comes shifting goalposts. So it really wasn't a topic of conversation. But definitely, they've never been to a sex talks event. I don't think they would ever come to one. They hate that I call them to tell this stuff. But from my end, there is now an open channel of communication, even if they resent it and hate it from their end.

What do you think it is about you personally that has made you an agon-style figure, for so many people when it comes to sex and relationships. Because I think even though, you know, this is still a taboo topic. And although sex is everywhere, it's across marketing, advertising, I think we often get a very kind of reductive, quite kind of narrow view of what sex is and kind of definitely not kind of any sort of focus on pleasure. But I feel like there are more people talking about it now.

And I think these conversations are going to open up. But you have really particularly resonated. You have really landed with people, not least your fantastic Twitter thread, in which you've sparked the most entertaining, fascinating, often insightful conversations on Twitter when you say, ladies, shall we have some fun? But what is it about you particularly, do you think, that has made you really connect

with so many people when it comes to this topic? I honestly think it's probably been years of experience. Before I started talking about sex heavily, I was always someone who spoke openly about relationships, dating, and I would write blogs. Like, I was writing blogs about, you know, dating men. when I was, yeah, I was, yeah, probably around 18. And I think it brought kind of, you know, it's great to have followers,

but as well as having followers, you need to sort of like have your community when it comes to social media. And I feel like I kind of created a community quite early on because these young women saw me talking about dating and relationships and they felt it was relatable. Like the things that I was talking, whilst my friends were talking about fashion and makeup and hair, etc. I was talking about, you know, things you need to stop doing

because, you know, to tell if a guy is clearly taking the piss. Do you know what I mean? Just those talks of like content. And I honestly think it was relatability. I think it's relatability. I think it's a fact that I grew a community. And just maybe because a lot of people who look like me weren't really doing it at the time,

there weren't that many Black British women who were talking about relationships and dating when I was. So I think that because of that and creating a website where I would, was consistently answering dilemmas. So even on my website, I don't do it as much now. But on my website, I sort of have this like curious cat where women could anonymously send me their dilemmas, of course.

And this was something that I used to do very heavily in my like early to mid-20s where I'd create like question of the days on social media. So we could all get involved. And I'd give my input as well. So on my website, you just have literally like thousands and thousands of dilemmas. So I think it's honestly because I've just maintained a reputation of, you know, having this high integrity, especially when it comes to the threads that you mentioned. I've never ever shared anyone's identity. So women more or less were like they can trust me.

And it's why I always say no matter where I am, if someone recognizes me in the toilet, they instantly want to tell me everything from their dating conundrums to, you know, the last person they had sex with. which I think is sweet. So, you know, sometimes it can get a bit much. Be like, oh, I just want to wash my hands. And this girl's telling me about her yeast infection. Yeah. So I honestly feel like that's been it. It's just been the years of me doing what I've been doing so heavily.

And I'm grateful as well because it's nice to have a bunch of women who really do take on board your advice. and enjoy your content because I'm not, I don't want people to think that my advice is the only way, but I want you to enjoy the content. I want it to be a part of your girl's group chat. I want you to feel comfortable when you're talking about sex or talking about what it is you want in a relationship. I think a lot of millennial women, not all of us,

but a lot of millennial women have been solved this dream that if we've become this sort of pick-me, we will be everything a man desires. And a lot of us are only realizing, which is, it's not too late, but it's a bit sad that that's not really how life works. You know, you get the best out of life by being yourself, not by being what a man wants you to be. And is that what, when you say a pick-me, what does a pick-me refa-you-you-to-you-you-work-like, in your books? You grew up with quite love girls who became, and I had this like pick-me identity.

Yes, and I was one of them because I think it was, honestly, the internalised patriarchal, you know, idea that I had or this internalised, misogyny that I had as well in terms of thinking that, you know, a woman should be this or a woman should be that or, you know, men are supposed to be the leaders in relationship of God buff or that men are, you know, if you behave a certain way, a man will want you or moulding yourself to be what a guy really wants. And I did that so many times. Like, I pretended I cooked for a guy. I've had friends who have cooked for a guy because, again, we were taught growing up as an audition to be in a man's life that if you can cook and clean, you know, a man will really want you. And it's just like, sounds like he wants

a maid. And I'm not really, you know, if I'm working, he's working, you know, we can both be leaders in this. And that was an outlook of mine that changed within time. But growing up, oh no, I too believe that my body count, sadly to say, I hate the term, I hate talking about the number of sexual partners. But in this context, I used to think that had I slept with more than amount of number of guys that a man would not take me seriously or he would not see me as a potential wife. And these are things that I have honestly, I don't obviously subscribe to anymore because, I mean, one, engaged. And this is, I don't know if it's just something that we learn to like move on from because we're just older or we quickly understand that

these things just truly don't matter. But you couldn't really tell. me that when I was 19 or 20 years old, I was panicking. My friends were panicking. If I told my friend that I'd had sex with a new guy, she'd be like, is this the third guy? You need to take it easy. Like, you know, these are the comments, yeah? These are the comments. It's so funny because I remember reading on Facebook as well, like when I told her, I wanted to sleep with the guy. It was a really odd conversation in 2009. And I remember her just telling me as well, like, oh my gosh, like, you don't want people to think that you're this or that. I look back and it just makes me laugh because I was just like, damn, you should have had more sex.

I want to actually take us on to our first Agniont question because you've already given some great insights into, I guess the kind of slut-shaming narrative that still remains so prevalent today, which is based on your own experiences and that actually relates so perfectly to this first question. Right, so Agni-Aunt question number one. Slut-shaming is such a huge thing in our society.

Ah, how tough of them. But I feel shame around feeling less sexual than people around me. How can I get rid of this shame and tap into my libido? I think this is such an interesting question because I think it gets the heart of what we were kind of beginning to talk about there with regards to the slut shame and the shame piece. Is that shame, I think, is such a potent feeling

that so many of us have around sex. And it's whether you are having sex, whether you're not having sex, shame is just so present, I think, the lot of our relationships to sex. So I feel like with this person, I kind of see their problem is twofold. First, I try to, you know, need to overcome shame around their relationship to sex. I mean, what they do or don't do the bedroom is no one's business and they shouldn't feel any shame around that anyway.

But second, it's also about, I guess, us advising them on how they can explore sex and their sexuality. Because, you know, obviously, and you touch on this in the book, you don't need to want sex all the time. You don't need to be super sexual. You can be asexual. But I think it's just important that you feel able to find that out because you've been able to explore yourself. rather than feeling like the shame is holding you back from exploring what you like and might like. So what advice do you have for this person?

A lot of people don't realize or don't understand the spectrum when it comes to sexuality. They think that maybe because their friends are at it like rabbits, that they too should be at it like rabbits. And that's not necessarily true. You know, there's also this idea

that even in cis hetero relationships that the libido of a man would always be higher than a woman. And even though there might be some aspects of truth, depending on your lifestyle what you're going through whether you're on medication there might be a reason for you having a low libido but if it's about you personally and your sexuality i think it's all about making yourself feel sexy or making yourself feel confident because sex is not always something that needs to be about you know it doesn't need to be about partnered sex it doesn't need to be about threesomes or four sums it can be just something you experience and explore on your own which i think a lot of people don't really really understand or know how to do. And there's so many ways you can explore your sexuality on your own from reading books, like the big O, or just reading maybe like, I don't know, a really good fiction book that

talks about sexuality, downloading an app that has amazing, you know, sexual content from audio erotica to, you know, feminist porn or maybe going on your first trip to a sex store to buy a sex toy and truly understanding and seeing what frequency your sexuality in terms of your sexual urge is at. And don't be too hard on yourself. I feel like we live in a today, we do live in a very sex crazed society. Even though we don't want to admit it, like sex is, I say it in the book, like it's everywhere. Sex is everywhere. So it's natural as to why it will be on your mind. And you're probably thinking, well, why am I not as sexually excited as this person And is there something wrong with me?

And it's just like, no, you have no idea what someone's background is when it comes to sex. You don't know, you know, you don't know what their libido is at. You don't know when the last time they had sex was. You really have no true understanding. So I think there's so many ways and so many avenues you can take when it comes to exploring sex on your own. And also just taking it easy on yourself, because if you find that your libido is not at the highest or you might just be asexual, there's nothing wrong with that at all. and I think that's even another thing as well like a lot of people don't realize that asexual

doesn't mean that you have absolutely no desire for sex it just means that it's quite minimal and for some people it might just not be there but don't be too hard on yourself I would say and just learn to explore sex with yourself and you did Yasmin Benoit

didn't you for you? She's a really amazing campaigner who is asexual herself and she talks a lot about really kind of demystifying a guess a lot of these stigma that still exists around asexuality. What should she tell you the book? So in the book, she explains that she doesn't have, like, that same sexual urge

that a lot of, I guess I would say your average person has. I think there was one example that she gave where people sometimes, you know, say to her, yeah, she says in the book that, you know, some people say to her, like, oh, you just haven't met the right person or, do you know what I mean? Kind of like they're trying to challenge her sexuality or how she presents. herself. And it's similar to those who identify as being a lesbian, especially for cis retro women. A lot of people, I feel, do not really take the identities of women or those who identify as women seriously when it comes to their sexuality. If a woman says that she's a lesbian,

you'll get a dick who says, oh, you haven't really met the right guy. And it's why you're not respecting my sexuality? Like, sex is not about you. For me, anyway. And that's another thing in the book. You know, I tried to allow women to understand that sex is not all about PIV or men. It shouldn't be centred around them. It should be centered around yourself. So to go back to Yasmin, no, she was very, very open. And she spoke a lot about the myths that does surround her sexuality. And the annoying comments, I would say, that she gets when it comes to people trying to challenge who she is and her experiences with sex.

And I think to me, this all kind of exists on one continuum. the slut shaming, the, yeah, the idea that you mentioned before, this idea that a woman's body count, how many people you've slept with matters, and it's worth talking about, and then judgment around, like, not having a sex, who somehow, like, prudish. It's all on that same continuum,

essentially of, like, judgment around women and women's bodies. And you talk about this in the book in terms of the Madonna versus Hall complex, which I think is such a kind of useful dichotomy through which to see this complex, and it was popularized by Freud, way back in the early 20th century, and yet still remains, I think, really pertinent now

in terms of how we see our relationship to sex. Can you just explain what that Madonna Vass Hall complex is? If anyone doesn't know. Oh, right, what didn't he do? I know. So obviously, I think they call him the godfather of psychosexual, whatever, and he is someone who had many theories, some which were just incredibly wrong,

especially when it came to the female sexuality and how we orgasm and what it means for us to orgasm. But he also came up with the Madonna Hall complex. And it's a theory that is that still kind of does still ring true today where the Madonna is presented as someone who is likened to, I don't know, like Virgin Mary and the whore is, well, pretty much at it. Yeah, the whore. It's basically, you know, looking at women and putting them in two of those boxes.

And it still happens today with the language that some people use, like, oh, she's wifey material. You're basically saying that she's the Mary or, you know, you know, she's a whole, you know, she's someone who will be heavily slut-shamed. You see that person as a whore and you don't think that they are worthy of anything more or substantial when it comes to relationships. And it really does show itself in different ways. People think it only happens in the dating stage. Like when a guy has just asked you for your name, he's either putting you in the Madonna or the hall complex. But this happens even after marriage whereby some guys, I've had women who have told me like, you know, I've had a baby.

we're married. He doesn't really, you know, initiate sex with me. When I try to initiate sex with him, he gives me a very off feeling. And sometimes it feels like, oh, is he suddenly placing her in that Madonna box whereby he doesn't really see her as a sexual person because she's now a mother? And how many mothers have we all spoken to where they tell us that, you know, life becomes a bit different for them when it comes to having a baby or getting married? You know, it feels there's like this little shift and it's almost as though their partner has subconsciously

put them on that merry pedestal and if you think about the people you put on the merry pedestal it'd be, for some guys anyway, it might be their wives, their mothers you do not see your mother as a sexual being so it's hard for them to now want to be or have that saying sexual intimacy or chemistry that

they once had in the dating or talking phase but yeah that's just one or two examples but again it happens in so many areas and aspects of our lives. We see it in on TV. You know, you'll have the daring girl who is supposed to be seen as the girl who probably doesn't take any shit, but she is the whore. And then you have the girl that's sweet and lovable and she's seen as the Mary and the guy that the girl should clearly be with. So, you know, this is done to us throughout life where we're constantly being

told who we need to be or what we need to do in order to get this. amazing guy, which is amazing. It made you think back to when I was a teenager. I remember my friend really loved sex from a young age and was very sexual and obviously got branded a slut. Meanwhile, I was really, I was grappling with an eating disorder. I had a really bad relationship with my body, had a really bad relationship to sex as a result of that.

And so I felt like a lot of fear and anxiety around sex. I remember someone kissing this guy once and I think he was like fingering me. And I was about 15 and I was like, this feels in my head. I was horrible. It was like a horrible. And I just, like, rolled over and put my back to him. I was like, I can't go through with this. And he just whispered in my ear, you're so boring.

And after that, I got such a reputation as being, like, a massive prude and not to have sex. And I just thought, no matter what you do is you articulate this in the book, no matter what you do as women, you don't, you don't win, exactly. And you mentioned that you were slut shamed early on at university. Has that affected you now? I mean, I know you're now, you're engaged now or you're in a lot of long, long-term loving relationship.

but had that affected before you in this relationship when you were still dating? Did that permeate how you felt about yourself in romance? It did until a certain point. When I started really talking about sex heavily, I think at that point I said I don't really care anymore. I couldn't give a what anyone thought about my sexuality or my relationships with men

because I was just like, I'm not at university anymore. No one pays my bills. I know who I am. I know what type of person I am, and that's all that matters. And if people are going to have an issue with it, well, then those are the sort of people I don't particularly want around me. I want people who can be themselves. I want people who can talk about sex openly.

I want people who don't really tie sex to a woman's worth. And I think that's what the issue is. Like, growing up, I constantly feared that the more I had sex, the more I was basically cheapening myself, and that's what I was trying to really unlearn and battle. But then as I got older, I realised that everybody was fucking, like, everybody was having sex. You know, we just went talking about it heavily, and maybe that's because women weren't having a good time. Women didn't want to be seen as, of course, easy. And maybe they were having sex with people they shouldn't have been having sex with, but people are having sex. Like, they really are out here having

sex. So I think I just grew up and understood that I was being lied to the whole time when it came to women and having, but I just wanted us to have a more honest conversation, which is why I do what I do. I wanted us to have a more. If you want to continue lying about who you have sex with, at least let it be someone you're having amazing sex with. I've been getting its whole kind of orgasms if you're going to feel any sort of one of communication I'm trying, just kind of final question this and I want to move on to the next Agnion question. but do you think that there is ever a right time to sleep with someone new? This is a question that comes up quite a lot actually at sex talks.

Like, should you hold out when you're when you first start dating someone? And my attitude has always been, fuck it. Like, you should just have sex whenever you want with someone new. Like, it doesn't matter. We shouldn't be held to old, kind of traditional ideas, like of a woman not putting out, kind of maintaining this like Madonna, virtuousness until you trust someone you're on date number four. But then another part of me, I don't know.

maybe I'm kind of recoiling back to the position of I don't know I and maybe I've just had bad experiences but things never seem to go that well when I've sexed someone too quickly and I'm kind of and I think that probably is just because of the person it's not the right person but do you what is your view on this and that's honesty as well and that's growth you know I think that as is as good as it is that you know we're trying to be sex positive we need to be sexually realistic as well and being sexually realistic is me giving whoever advice when it comes to them, for example, going on a Tinder date and they're saying, you know, they want to go back to this guy's house and have sex. I'm allowed to tell you that that's a dumb idea. I'm allowed to do that. It doesn't make me sex negative. If you want to, if this is someone that you've already known and you've got a relationship with, go to their mother's house if you want, have sex on her bed if you like.

but my point is that we have to be really smart and wise about our decisions and I think you have to be that way in every aspect of your life not just sexually as well but you know yeah I do believe that if you want to have sex with a guy

in the first date that is fine but context matters is this someone you have never met before and it's the first date or is this someone you really established a relationship if you've never met him before if it's a first date it's a Tinder date first date you've never met then no. I think that's, I think that is very reckless. I would never, do you see the news about what

is happening to women these days? It's scary. Do you know what I mean? And I think being a woman in society is just, it's very hard. Talk less of being by yourself with a random person you've met on the internet. I think it was the first thing that we were taught about the internet. You don't You can't meet strangers. And if you do decide to do it, there's nothing necessarily wrong, giving the context as well. I feel like, just make sure you're alert. Give, you know, friends. Give your friends all the info that's needed. If you need to share your location, do that. Just be smart. But I'm, if you tell me like, oh, listen, I'm going on the second or third date with this guy, I think I'm about to have sex, listen, just make sure he's tested, have that

conversation, you know, that's the type of person I am. I do feel as I get older, I think I'm 30 and I have been single for like, I've dated people but haven't had like a long term relationship for the past couple years. And I think as I get older, I also just feel more self-protective in the way that I used to feel to have one eight sounds and not give a shit, well, kind of a lie, but whatever in my late 90s. Now I feel like I have, you know, especially in my own bed or some strange bed, I feel like a self-protective layer comes about i don't want a stranger in my bed if i don't know you the idea of waking up with your arm around me freaks me out in a way that different it makes me and i actually did i had a ball

exam with someone the other day and i found it so weird waking up in a bed with this complete stranger next to me his like i won't give any sort of good way details but it was just it made me feel really uncomfortable and i think i felt he was really nice there was nothing nothing problematic with him at all, but I think it was a reminder to me that I have, you know, I've built walls around me for a reason. I felt over exposed and I felt too vulnerable and actually left feeling really horrible and like really like just not great in myself. I think for me it was a lesson that I don't need to prove anything to anyone by by being like, you know, just because I run sex talks and like talk about sex or time. You need to be the most sexual person ever. Totally. And actually

being able to honour your own like safety and boundaries, I think remains so important. Time for a quick ad break, courtesy of our podcast launch sponsor, Dating App Field. Field holds a very special place in my heart because their CEO, Anna Krova, has appeared in the sex talk stage multiple times, giving us a lowdown on what the future of sex and dating really holds. Open relationships she keeps reminding us are the new normal. Field is shaping that future with a dating app that is genuinely inclusive. They have more than 20 sexuality and gender identity options to choose from, and which caters to whatever dating style you're into. Whether you're looking for a friend, are friends with benefits, some are romance, whether you want to explore solo or with a partner,

whether you're into ethical non-monogamy or not, Field is the app for you. We talk a lot about dating by design rather than default at sex talks, that is, dating the way you want to and not the way society tells you to. And Field really is the perfect app for helping you do just that. So, wait not a second longer before downloading the Fields app now and get to a whole month of their majestic membership, think elite membership, for free by using the unique sex talks download code, field.com forward slash sex talks. I've also put the code in the show notes. Okay, back to the show. Thank you, Fields. Right, we're going to go on to Agni Aunt question number two, which I love. So this person's written in and said, hi, I'm 25 and have never had a serious

partner and never been in love. Every time I begin seeing someone new, something seems to go wrong, or it fizzles out prematurely. I want to find love, but I'm feeling increasingly hopeless. What should I do? My heart goes out to this person. Oh, welcome. Yes, welcome to dating. Like, I think so many women who have experienced this. And it is a very common thing. I mean, it depends on where you live. Like, you know, is there a big community where you live? I don't know if you live in London. I don't know if you live in Wales. I don't know where you live. So I would say, all in all, you need to put yourself out there. You have to put yourself out there.

You need to be going to more social events. If it's, you know, if it's someone to date that you're after, you need to try going for a different type of guy. I would also suggest, like, creating a list. Like, maybe curate a list of what it is you're looking for in a person. Obviously, you have to start off with physically because it's the first thing you see. You know, what it is, where it is they,

you'd like them to be in life. and you need to download every dating app. You need to download every dating app. Make sure your profile is tip-top. Try and analyze what it is that you did with the other people you were dating. Because sometimes we don't realize that there's a pattern or there's a theme.

And instead of doing something about that pattern or thing, we continue. And I guess it's like that old saying, you know, like if you continue to do the same thing over and over again, it's just insanity. So you have to do something different in order to get new results. So whether that's going to games nights with different friends,

whether that's going to different social places. Stop going to the same pub, but you go to that pub every single week. We need to try somewhere else. Going to a day party, maybe going karaoke with your mate. Essentially, you have to, you know, navigate life as a single person, but truly put yourself out there. Hopefully you're not someone that's stuck indoors because, you know, the amazing guy you're looking for

is not going to find you at your flat unless he's delivering your food. So I honestly think that it is something that does happen, but you have to be patient with yourself. I know a girl who didn't date until she was, well, she dated, but she didn't meet her boyfriend until she was 25. And they're in like an amazing relationship. So please be hopeful.

And don't be too hard on yourself because dating in this day and age is so difficult. It's really hard. I feel like you're giving me tough love by virtue of giving this person great advice. Because I do think I definitely feel like it's quite easy to withdraw. because dating can be really painful. It really does bruise the ego. When you get rejected, you have to get used to getting rejected because it's actually ultimately oftentimes

when things don't work out with people new. It isn't about you. You meet, it's about timing. It's like, it hasn't supposed to come out in relationship. Are they ready for a relationship? There's so many things that come into play when it comes to meeting someone that you can have a meaningful connection with.

So I think you have to get really good with facing rejection. And no one likes rejection. Rejection is really hard. But I do find personally, I think what I struggle with, and I've talked about the sex talks before, but is learning to hold both the independent woman mindset of being a business owner, focused on my career, not waiting for a man to come in and kind of fulfill me in any way, but really kind of cultivating and building a life on my own terms that feels meaningful without anyone else. But doing that whilst also holding space for the vulnerability that requires a like, bringing someone in and allowing someone to come in, that's what I find difficult, because I feel like I'm either in one headspace or another.

How do you do that? Yeah. How do you do both? I wish I knew. I wish I knew. How do you do both? I think, do you know what? I think sometimes meeting the right person,

it might just make it click. I think meeting the right person will just make it click. And I think meeting the right person will also, I think like, especially as a creative, when you're a creative, I feel like you need someone. who can truly add towards that creativeness or adds towards your life

because it's not something, it's not like you've got a typical nine to five, do you know what I mean? You need someone who can truly help you out in that area. So for me, even though my partner could be a bit crap, he is truly someone that will help me when it comes to my podcast. And I think that's the way I allow my vulnerability to,

because I'm just like, okay, tell me, because I'm very sensitive when it comes to my work. So I think meeting the right person will just make everything click. No, that makes perfect sense. And I think there's a love coach, Vicky Pavert, who's brilliant, who I've interviewed before, and she said to me, see dating as exposure therapy. You just have to keep on going on dates, keep on going dates.

If you want to, if you want to find someone, if you want to be in a relationship, what you don't have to be, but this person actually does want to find love, she said you just got to get used to getting knocked down and getting back up again quickly. And I think where I've fallen down, and I can really empathize with this person,

is that I've allowed myself to stay knocked down for so long after like mini heartbreaks. And I've seen them, the mini heartbreaks I've often found to be more painful. I say this, like people think that they're not valid, but they really are. Like even situationships or whatever, like people think you can't mourn those sorts of relationships, but you absolutely can because if your emotions are valid, you know, why would you not be upset? Why would you not be hurt? Like we get hurt and upset or even heartbroken and other aspects of our life. It might be work.

it could be friendship, so why would it not meet me with this person that we were getting to know or we were, you know, we were seeing for some time and that we invested our time into, it wouldn't make sense to not be able to be upset or feel a bit heartbroken about it. Also, I think when it comes to like short relationships, you're often mourning the loss of the hope that you projected into that person for this life you believe they were going to give you that you were going to cultivate together. And often if it ends prematurely, if it feels like ends prematurely. It can often, you haven't really got to know them well enough to see all their flaws. So I think we can feel like you've met this like amazing, amazing person who takes

all your boxes and then it ends and you're like, but oh my gosh, you were the one. And it's just like you actually didn't get to see all the bad things yet. But Lonnie, you're big on manifesting. I know you used to kind of put together these vision boards are very much focused, I think, on your career and what you wanted, where you wanted to be. I believe you've fulfilled a lot of the things that are on your vision boards. I remember listening to you know in a previous podcast episode, discuss your kind of way of manifesting a lot of work achievements into your life. Did you do the same thing with your relationship? Did you manifest your current partner? I did. I feel like I did. I really did. I feel like I manifested. But when I was,

when I created my first vision board, I was like 19. So there was no, I never even thought of a husband or anything to say the least because I'm 19. I don't, it wasn't what I was thinking. I was more like, this is what I want for my career. These are the women that inspire me. this is the sort of, you know, this is the sort of relationships that I want when it comes to friends or when it comes to my network as I get older. And I really do feel like I manifested it, but, you know, people think that manifesting is just probably just cutting out, you know, creating like a, I don't know, like a montage on a big cardboard, but there's more that goes into it, which is obviously doing the work.

Like, you have to do the work. You need to find inspiration to help you do the work so you can be to where you are. and you've got to be fearless. And I think when I was in my 20s, I was very shameless and fearless. And I think that's what you have to be in life. If you want something that bad, you have to do everything you can

in order to really achieve it. Because we only get one life. So I think when it came to the career I wanted, I knew how different it would be. And you always wanted to work in the media, but I just never really knew what path I would take to get there. So I feel like manifesting is a lot of looking for inspiration to help get you to where you are. It also includes, you know, we were even talking about Beyonce earlier as well.

You know, you know, and that's literally it. Like for me, Beyonce growing up, well, she was definitely on my vision board, I'm sure. Like, for me growing up was looking for women who were the best at what it was that they did. So it wasn't even to do with sex or relationships. It was to do, it might have been different areas of media or different areas of fashion. Like, I wanted to be as iconic or to really, you know, just really have my mark made when whatever industry it was that I was going to pursue. And I think I've kind of done that, you know. I think I'm still, I've still got a lot that I want to do.

So much I want to do. But I'm very grateful that I've been able to stick. to what the plan was and see, yeah, see the groups of my labour. And you say that you manifested the partner you now have. What attributes that you were, that you articulated through your vision boarding that you wanted in someone? Oh, so I created a list, which was still a form of manifestation on my phone. I talk about this in the book as well.

So I created different tiers for what I wanted. It was physical. It was personality. it was how they would, you know, how they would treat my love languages or how important my love languages were to them and how they would make me feel, obviously. And there was just so many, there were different sectors, like, there were different parts that I had to it. And it was just like, okay, you have to pass like at least four out of five before you can move on to the next one, you know. I said I wanted a Nigerian, I wanted a Nigerian guy.

I didn't get a Nigerian guy. So I was just like, fine. You know, some boxes are bigger than others. You're like, you know, some things you'll compromise on. And other things, I was just like, I'm not willing to compromise on this. Absolutely not. So, you know, if I saw any, any, it wasn't even something that was even up for compromising. But if I just saw any little tidbit of like misogyny or anything that just made me feel, you know,

because during lockdown, for example, I remember I dated, I think the date, that's a lot. I was talking to this, because it's lockdown, so you can't really date. But I was talking to this guy that I'd met on a dating app. And we were getting on perfectly well. So I used this example as a benchmark because it basically more or less told me everything I needed to know, not everything I needed to know about him, but it told me enough that I was just like, I don't have pursued this with you anymore because you are weird. And this was because when we were playing this game together, I think he had won.

and I made a joke like, oh, you're getting too big for your heels. Obviously, we know the saying is you're getting too big for your boots. And he didn't like it. The way he came at it was just very, you know, when you can see that guy's, he feels like his masculinity is being played with because I said heels. And I was just like, wait, do you actually have a problem with that comment? Because if you do, we aren't going to get along because not only can you not handle my banter, you know, if my child comes home one day and, you know, he's a boy and he decides to wear a pair of heels,

Are you going to go off the rails? Do you get what I'm saying? The relationship I was in before was years of being on and off. And me realizing that, again, nothing positive was ever going to blossom from this, no matter how hard I tried. So it was just best to let it go. So I think what I did tell myself was that I had to really, really focus and pay attention to red flags and to never ever be quiet about things

that didn't make me feel good. and to also pick my battles as well. I think picking your battles when you're in a relationship is so important. But paying attention to red flags is also something that is something that I just wouldn't shy away from if I ever felt there was a red flag or something that just needed to be discussed. So I think the way you create your boundaries is honestly by communicating and treating yourself as well. I mean, it's not, I mean, you can treat yourself great, don't get twisted, and someone can still take the piss. but also just setting that example of how you want to be like treat yourself how you want to be treated

so therefore it can help when dealing with whoever you're dating but i think honestly we i think just as women we have been taught to kind of be a bit meek when it comes to relationships i've never been a meek woman i'm not meek in the bedroom i'm not meek in bed i'm not meek in relationships and I'm not, there's no area of my life. And I think even when it comes to your work life, you know, that's why we hear that men are better negotiators and et cetera, because they have that boundary and, you know, they have, I guess it's a bit of a privilege that they have,

but tap into that privilege, anyone who's with you is lucky to be with you. And you need to treat yourself as a reminder so they can remember as well. So it really, yeah, it's to do with self, a lot of internal work, maybe going to therapy as well. I think therapy is very healthy it's something that I do

I stop it sometimes but then I go back to it I think but I really love what you just said then of treat yourself as you want to be treated because it sets the benchmark for how people then treat you and I think that is it's easy it's easy to forget that sometimes

and to kind of have the mindset that worth putting up a shit because you would prefer to be in a relationship than not and I think absolutely like nothing is worth sacrificing your first of your self-worth Because over time, you can use that phrase, nothing good was going to blossom from that situation.

And I think that's true. If you build something on shaky foundations, you're not going to grow something worthwhile, which leads us perfectly into our final Agni-Aunt question because this person is having a very relevant dilemma to this. This person's written in saying, I've been with my boyfriend for two years now. And while nothing is specifically wrong,

I still feel like something isn't quite right there. He's nice, my friends like him. We have a good time together. but I just don't feel any major way about him anymore. But my single friends keep telling me how lucky I am to have a nice guy. Are my expectations just too high, or do I call it quits? Focus on me and let him live his life. Oh, that's, it's a tricky one because there's so many,

there's so many ways you could go with it. But I think that sometimes we're expected to continuously be in absolute, madly in love with our partners. And that's just not how life works. I mean, are you always madly in love with yourself? You know, it's so how can you, you're not, you know? So how is it really possible for you to constantly have this same a wavering feeling for another person?

And, you know, love is, well, I would like to believe my type of love when it comes to another person that I'm in a relationship with is conditional, like there are conditions to it. So what are the conditions to your love and what's not really being fulfilled? maybe have a look at that. And sometimes relationships just run it course and you're just like this, I don't really want this anymore. And you're allowed to feel that way. Your friends might think you're lucky and that's great for them, but they're not the ones who are in it. You know, they will only ever know what you tell them and what they see with their own eyes. They will never

really know what you are feeling. And if what you are feeling is saying, I think I might be done with this relationship, that's fine. There's this idea that for relationships to end, have to hate each other. You have to be arguing continuously. That's not true. Sometimes people just wake up and say, I don't really want to do this anymore. And it can be a bit sad and frustrating for the other person who's in it. But that's the way life is sometimes. And it's okay. There isn't a rule to love. So why make one for yourself? When I was with my ex-boyfriend, we were in a relationship for like kind of six years or more.

I think I had this idea of all these other amazing relationships that I was missing out on. because I was with this person. I think actually what I was doing is I was projecting a lot of my own dissatisfaction with me and my life onto this person and our relationship. And I expected him to be a panacea to my woes, to be the person that kind of filled in the gaps for me.

And so I said to him, I was like, I'm unhappy in this relationship because we don't do the X, Y, and Z. I did nothing myself to try and fix those things. I expected him to fix them. So I think, to your point, it's actually really important. It's maybe like write a list of the things that you want.

how can you work together as a partnership to meet those things and realize it's your responsibility as much as it's your partners to make it a relationship that's worth being in and I think after that if it feels like it's done then you know as you say it quits absolutely and Alan Devotten says because we often think that like we measure the success relationship based on longevity so like longevity is a metric for success in terms of like lasting love it's not people can come into life

have an amazing impact and then they leave and that's wonderful and let them go. Absolutely. Any tips for this person getting over a potential heartbreak? One would definitely be therapy. I often tell women that there's nothing wrong talking to your friends, but sometimes we really do talk, you know, the years of our friends, and they're hearing the same thing over and over,

not knowing if you're going to go back. But I feel like we emotionally dump on our friends a bit too much, and they don't really have the right tools to truly help us because they're not a professional. Or you just might, well, you might have a friend, who might be a professional and it's really good at comforting but it's not their job to do so. I mean, of course talk to your friends but try and divide it with talking to a therapist, someone who has the qualifications to actually help you and, you know, tell you what it is

you need to do to, not even tell you what you need to do because that's not what therapists do, but they ask you the right questions to help get your feelings out there. and I would say keeping yourself busy whether that's finding a new hobby whether it's going to the gym we've been told that going to the gym is just of course not only great for your physical health

but your mental health as well you know doing the things that you were too busy to do because you were occupied with this person in your life I think you know breakups can be really good because they I mean amazing albums have been written because of heartbreak So truly use that to fuel your creativity if you do have a creative bone.

I think it's actually a really exciting point in your life to discover sometimes the first time what you're like alone. What your life look like? Yeah, alone as an independent individual. Like what are the hobbies and stuff that maybe you haven't cultivated that you didn't even know existed in you that you get to try out now as you get to almost like architect this new chapter in your life? So I think it can actually be really, really exciting turning away.

and to really get to know yourself a bit better and what you want from the next relationship. And I just want to ask, you touched on this briefly, I think, in the previous section, about love languages, which I think are kind of a thread, when we think about the self-knowledge that we need when going into relationships and looking for someone we want to be with.

I think understanding our love language is of such a key part of that. Do you know your love? What is your love language? I mean, as a writer, is it kind of words of affirmation? Is that something? No, absolutely not. No. because I feel like words of affirmations are just I mean do I like words of affirmation

absolutely I like a bit of everything but I think my true love language has to be acts of service I like gifts as well I feel like I always tell women to stay away from words of affirmation because although they are nice I feel like when you make that your number one you just get done over by so many people you get done over by friends you get done over by family and of course relationships because, you know, anyone can say anything. I think as I was discovering relationships as I got older and older, no one basically told me, but guys will say anything. Like, they will literally say anything.

So how can that be my love language? Like, I want to see you, if you really love me, I want to see you use your time to help me do something. I want you to help me. I want you to figure out things for me. I want you to do things for me without me even saying so. That to me is my true love language. Alani, it's been such a pleasure going to talk to you.

Thank you so much for coming the Sex Talks podcast. Thank you for having me. I've really had so much fun. Before we end the show, another quick reminder about today's podcast sponsor, Field. The dating app catering to whatever dating style you're into. If you want to spice up your summer, all while supporting this podcast, then please do download the field app using the exclusive download code field dot co forward slash sex talks which you can also find in the show notes thank you so much for

listening to today's sex talks podcast with me your host emma louise boynton if you'd like to attend a live recording of the podcast check out the event bright link in the show notes as we have lots of exciting live events coming up in the meantime don't forget to submit whatever agglown question you'd like us to tackle on a future podcast episode via the sex talks website that's sextalks.co.uk. And finally, if you enjoyed the show, I hope you did. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to this on, as apparently it helps others to find us.

Have a wonderful day. Thank you.