Sex Talks With Emma-Louise Boynton - The art of Great Chat with Josh Smith, author, presenter and journalist

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

On this week’s live recording of the podcast, Emma-Louise was joined by journalist, presenter, podcaster and author, Josh Smith to discuss his brand new book: Great Chat. The importance of communication is something we talk about ALL the time at Sex Talks, not least because - as we know - it's the key to great sex and deeper intimacy.  So when Josh published a book all about the art of great conversation we knew we had to sit down with him and extract all his tips and insights.  As a celebrity interviewer, Josh has talked with people of every background, mood and personality, (think Oprah, Victoria Beckham and Pamela Anderson) and they really open up to him. He's the master of creating a space that invites and nurtures vulnerability, which is critical to hosting a great interview but also cultivating a deep relationship with somebody. In this episode Josh shares everything he’s learned about Great Chat in his many years working as a journalist; his two cents on how to translate this to the context of dating; and the best piece of advice he's ever received (from none other than actress Hayley Atwell). We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did. You can buy Josh's book here and find out when the next live recording of the podcast is here.

Hello and welcome to the live version of the Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. Sex Talks exists to engender more open, honest and vulnerable discussions around typically taboo topics, like sex and relationships, gender inequality, and the role technology is playing in changing the way we date, love and fuck. Our relationship for sex tells us so much about who we are. and how we show up in the world, which is why I think it's a topic we ought to be talking about with a little more nuance and a lot more curiosity. So each week I'm joined by new guest whose expertise on the topic I'd really like to mine and do well just that.

From writers, authors and therapists to actors, musicians and founders, we'll hear from a glorious array of humans about the stuff that gets the heart of what it means to be human. If you want to attend a live recording of the podcast, click on the Eventbrite link in the show note. On this week's live recording of the Sex Talks podcast, I'm joined by journalist, presenter and author Josh Smith, who joined me to discuss his brand new book, Great Chat. Now, the importance of communication is something we talk about all the time at Sex Talks, not least because, as you all know, it's the key to great sex and deep intimacy. So when Josh published a book all about the art of great conversation, I knew I had to sit down with him and extract all of his tips and insights. As a celebrity interviewer, and yes, he's interviewed some huge names, including Oprah Winfrey, Victoria Beckham, Pamela Anderson, the list goes on and we do talk about this in the episode. Josh just talked about people of every background, mood and personality, and they really open up to him.

He creates a space that invites and nurtures vulnerability, which is critical to hosting a great interview and is a real skill. It's also what makes him such a wonderful friend. He makes you feel seen, heard, and importantly, totally supported. That is an art in and of itself. Right, I'm going to let us dive straight into this episode. I hope you enjoy it as much so I did. I'm joined today by journalist, podcaster, and author, Josh Smith. For those you haven't listened to yet, he's got an amazing podcast called The Rain Podcast, which I've been deep in the weeds of preparing for this interview, and I just absolutely love. So thank you for that.

And now you are the great chats expert. How does it feel being a published author? It's the weirdest experience ever. Like, I remember just after Pride, me and my boyfriend was so hung over, like, on, like, an extreme level. And he'd lost his glasses at Girls Aloud the week before. And he was like, please come with me to Battersea Power Station to get these new glasses. And I was like, I really do not want to do this. And then we were walking along, and I looked like death.

And we walked past a bookstore. And my book was in the window. And I was like, this is the best moment. I was, like, screaming. And it was just so exciting because. you know, my book editor Madia is here, represent Madia. And it's such an weird, introspective process, because you just do it on your own and with your book editor. And then to then go out into the world and then see it in a shop window and then seeing it in people's hands. And

I've got amazing messages since. Some people I have no connection with whatsoever who have randomly picked up the book. And one I had the other day, which I was so amazed by, is someone told me that they read the book and they went for a job interview and it gave them the confidence to get the job interview, get asked for a pay rise and they got it thanks to the book. And I was like, that is so amazing. So what Josh is saying is that he wants a cut of what anyone goes away from today and gets a pay rise. You need to DM Josh and then you need to give him some cash because that is 10% of that is his. And then Josh, you're obviously doing lots of interviews around the book, like this morning, and I know you've done lots of others.

What does it like to be in the interviewee seat when you're usually the host? I now realize how much I put people on the spot. Like, Lucy's here and I haven't even heard before and I was thinking like, oh my God, like you ask these questions. I ask quite big questions as well. I don't really go in light most of the time, but I feel like when they're coming on the podcast, they know what they're getting themselves into. But I'm like, oh, wow, I had to think of a really articulate answer.

to this. So it's been quite exposing in a way, but it's also giving me a greater understanding of the person sat on the other side of the questions, which is no bad thing. But it's just been an amazing experience to talk about something I'm really passionate about. I honestly want everyone to get out there and master the art communication, because it's one of the greatest gifts we have. So that's what I'm set on doing. And so getting to do that through interviews is just an incredible gift. I just feel so grateful at the moment. Oh, I love that. I have to say reading the book, I felt it made me feel really like pumped up to go and make the most of the conversations I have because I, my nature of my work, I get to interview lots of incredible people like

yourself and constantly out and about, lots of events and having lots of little bitty conversations, lots of small talk, which we'll get on to later. But I think reading your book, I realize each of those moments really is such an amazing opportunity to foster quite a deep connection with someone new. And sometimes, especially when London can feel quite busy and hectic and our lives can feel quite frenetic, it's easy to kind of take those moments for granted and be like, you know what? I want to go my phone. I want to go and like swipe on hinge. I mean, I do. It's a full-time job. That is a full-time job, Bay. It is a full-time job. Why are you here? In fact, I know, I've taken a little bit of time out of my busy Hinge day. Thank you, Ben.

Because I wanted to sit down with you, then I will go. We can swipe on stage. I'm up for that. Do you mind? Because every moment I'm not swiping as I'm moment away. It's a wasted time. I know. I'm not meeting my future. Really, really rich husband. No, I am the rich husband. Don't worry. Well. Very share of you. I will be. I will be. Manifest it. Okay, so Josh, let's get started with the process of writing this book.

Now, you start the book by describing how great chat or kind of good conversational abilities weren't necessarily always. is so easy for you. You had a speech impediment when you were younger and you had to work with speech therapists to move through that. And then when you were a teenager, you said that lots of people around their voices began to break and yours didn't seem to break in the same way. And that made you feel self-conscious about your intonation, which again, you felt that you kind of, you had this embarrassment around using your voice. So tell us how you got from feeling quite nervous around using your voice and not feeling perhaps like super confident in being a conversationless to writing a book called Great Chats. I mean, that is a journey. When I, in the first page in the book,

I talk about a conversation I had at my friend Charlie's wedding. And I, whenever I go to a wedding, I'm like the ultimate wedding guest. I should have like a gold platinum card for how great am at going to weddings. And I go to so many of them, going to one straight after this. I'm not even joking. And I am. And I love going up to meet like the auntie. Love it. The auntie's always got so much great gossip. I love meeting every single person at weddings. And I was talking to her sister. And she knew me through working with Charlie at Glamma. And so she was asking me about my career. And I was like, oh, tell me about what you do. And she was like, oh, you all have no idea what this is. But I'm a speech therapist. I was like, babe, I know exactly what speech therapist is because I went to go see one. And it was so interesting that conversation because that conversation showed me so much about how powerful great chat can be. Because I hadn't thought about. I was writing the book at that time and I hadn't thought about the fact that I went through this period of my life where I was too scared to use my own voice when I was really young and at time where you're being pushed out to go socialize with kids but you don't want to because

they're taking the mic out of you because you can't say certain words properly. A dinner lady wants laughed in my face because I tried to order fish fingers and I was like for feeling over and over and over again. And those kind of little things are very traumatic to a young. young person, they really stick with you. And it was almost like I've just hidden this aspect of my life. And actually, I was like, oh my God, go younger me. The fact that now I'm in a situation in my life where I make money through having conversations, like, how lucky am I to be able to do that? And that younger me got through that to get to that point. And if I hadn't had that conversation with Charlie's sister, the whole beginning of the book would be different because it made me go away

and think about how much I've grown as a person and how difficult that time was. And then also then thinking back to them when I was a teenager. I mean, I've got a psych cold at the moment. My voice is a bit deeper than usual, bit sexier today. You're welcome. But most of the time it's a bit more high pitch. And when I was going through that, I lost faith in my voice all over again. Because when you're bullied for how you sound or how you're talking, it robs you of your

voice. And it made me regress inside myself. I was a very socially anxious teenager for a period of time. And so now to have got through that, I know when someone says to me, I'm socially anxious, will this book count me? I'm like, honey, I've been there. Babes, I've been there. I will hold your hand.

I'm your wing person. I'll take you through this. I'll take you on that journey with me because I've been there and I've done it. So I think that's why the beginning in the book is very powerful because it's a very reflection of the journey that I've been on. And Josh, can I just ask, despite feeling this lack of confidence at various points in your adolescence around using your voice, did you always want to be a journalist? No. It's something that's found me by complete accident. Honestly, like, when I set up, when I left university, I went to be a fashion editor. So I started at the bottom. I was a fashion assistant at Gratia. I had no, I didn't even want to. to be a journalist. I didn't want to write. I wanted to be a stylist. And then as what I realized

was, is what I was so good at is having conversations with people, be that the person in the post room or be that the fashion director. And I just loved being in a office environment connecting with people. And then randomly, when I was at Gracia, I got approached about doing this show on four music called Rock the Look with Rimmol London, where each week we had a different celebrity guests come on, like Rita Aura, Tiny Temper, this is very obvious time, you can tell already. And I would be showing people at home how to get their looks for less on the high street. I mean, Lily Allen via Primark was not a good look. You can look at it on YouTube, it's horrific.

Everyone goes straight away. But after that, at Grazie, they were so encouraging to me. They were like, have you ever thought about doing a vlog? And that's like, babe, what's a vlog? I don't know what a vlog is. Like, so I started doing this thing called Joshington hosts, because that's what they used to call me, Joshington Post. That's what they used to call me in the office, Vicki Harper, who completely changed my career. Like, I say this to her all the time. And then when I was doing these random videos, which were like,

oh, if you want to get laid at the Christmas party and wear this River Island cutout dress, I'm not joking. That was some of the advice that was on these videos. The advice I need for my hinge person is. God, Josh. Well, we're going to change all the, we'll get you in that cut out dress, we'll change all the pictures and you'll be going on a date straight after this. and then randomly someone who was working with RuPaul at the time came to go out and see him like oh we want him to come on Josh's vlog

because they're launching RuPaul's Drag Race in UK on this random channel and that was my first ever celebrity interview and then as soon as I did that I was like this is what I was always meant to do and I was like and it just all clicked why? Why did you have that feeling of this is exactly where I'm meant to be

in that moment. Because I realized how energy giving great conversations can be. And sitting across one of the greatest living humans, RuPaul, I was like, wow. And also one thing I really believe is that every single person in life is a teacher or a lesson to you. You've just got to keep those ears open, have those conversations, and you will find that lesson or you'll find that teacher and that person. And every single person I've interviewed since that day has taught me something about myself or about life, be that for good reasons or bad reasons. It might be that I've sat across them and been like, I never want to act like you. Or it might be like, they told me a piece of advice that's completely changed my life. Like, we were talking about a piece of advice

that I got told not that long ago. Well, actually, that was actually quite long ago. It's about five years ago now. Wow. Age is really creeping up, those. And it was from the actress Haley Atwell, and she's one of the most incredible people I've met. Because people always say to me, like, oh who's the best person you've ever interviewed and they want like the most juiciest the most famous one so i'm like Oprah and then they're like great and i learned a lot from interviewing Oprah but it's not always the most famous people you learn the most amazing things from and she said to me after that interview she sent me a direct message on instagram and she said keep taking you wherever you go and in every single room you walk into dictate the tone that

you want that piece of advice completely changed my life because i realized that the way that was going to be successful in life, it's through being authentically myself. And just thinking back to the teenage me when I was getting bullied my voice and everything out, I was told that me wasn't right. And being authentically me was not going to get me far in life. So to have gone from that journey to then learn how to embrace that, I'm like, I'm just going to be myself and then everything else will hopefully fall into place. But at least I know when I put my head on the pillow at night, I've always been truly myself. So that's an amazing life lesson that I've learned through having these incredible conversations. And Josh, you just mentioned there quite a few big names. We've had

Oprah, RuPaul, Haley, Atford. A real name drop moment, but you have permission to do the name dropping because you have interviewed such a litany of high profile guests on your brilliant podcast. I think something that's really notable with your podcast is how kind of comfortable you seem to make people feel. You really get people to open up to you in a way that sometimes we don't necessarily see those kind of high profile people do in other interviews. And something you mentioned in the book is that often actually these kind of celebrities can be the hardest people to interview because they are interviewed all the time. And you mentioned the kind of the press junkets, you know, press junket that will be around like a new movie that's coming out. And some

these people are being interviewed for days on end, just like just interview after interview after interview. By, you know, they must be so bored. Yeah. How do you cut through? when so many journalists are asking so many, often quite banal questions of these celebs, how do you cut through in those scenarios and get something a bit deeper from people you interview, which Josh is really my way of asking, what is your thinking behind asking Haley Bieber whether she knows what spotted dick is, or asking Pamela Anderson how to flirt? Okay, so that was, those two questions are very early on in my career.

I probably wouldn't ask that now. I think you should. Yeah, I think I should ask everyone if they know what spotted dick is, because it's a crucial question. You should add that to your hinge profile, babe. Is it an SDI or isn't a pudding? Who knows? And you should know. Exactly.

Healthy sex is good. So I think that this is just advice in general, I think, any conversation you're having with any single person, be that with a best friend who's opening up to you about a problem that they're going through, or you're at a job interview, or you are meeting a random stranger. with the first time and you think you fancy them and you want to get on with them or get it on with them is to treat every single person like an individual. And there's so many times in conversations where you meet people, right, like when you're at a networking event where someone's going to ask what you do before they even ask how you are. So you're already not treating me like an individual in that situation. So rule number one, always go into every single conversation that ask how someone is and be genuinely interested in that.

That is so important because that makes you seem like, oh, I'm actually treating you like a fellow human being, which is what every single conversation should be like. And I really believe in the power of creating safe spaces for people. So one thing that I've learned through trial and error is that the best way if you're going to get someone to open up is to ask open-ended questions. So instead of going in straight away, like a kind of like Jerry and Paxman, kind of Pierce Morgan kind of way where you're like going for the jugglers straight away. The way you're going to get more out of someone and the way they're going to feel more comfortable and the way they're going to open up to you in ways that they haven't opened up to other people is if you create the space for them to address the topics that they want to address and you can meet them where they are. Always meet people where they are. Don't like force your own agenda on people. Like that's rule number one of conversation, right? If you're going to go into a conversation with your friend and you're going to be like, you did this to mean da da da da da da da da da da da da da. You're not going to get anything out of that. And it's the same with an interview. If you're going to go and be like, tell me about your divorce, you don't

going to get anywhere, honey? Because that is so personal and it's not your right to ask those kind of questions. So that's the kind of strategy that I take with me. But I hate the kind of even saying it's a strategy because I just like to think of myself as being a human, having a human conversation with someone. Can I just ask with that, Josh? How have you found that from a journalistic perspective? Because I think often, you know, editors will have an agenda that they want their journalist to go out and to pursue, especially in the context of a high-profile celebrity interview. How have you balanced being able to remain open and not, as you've just said, they're going at the jugular and kind of force quite big questions on people,

versus also having a kind of, some kind of agenda of terms of what you want the interview to where you wanted to go and what kind of questions you want answered? I think it's a tricky balance, but I'm not, I kind of also hate the word journalist because it has such a bad connotation, especially if you're a subter interview, it's kind of gives the idea that you're like, you're out to get someone. And I'm just not. And I really mean that, like, I always want to be someone who goes home and knows that I'm a good person. I don't want to catch someone out. We've had people say things in the podcast and we've taken it out if they wanted if they want to have it taken out because they've gone back and they've like, oh, I don't actually

want to share that. I'm like, it's completely your story. It's their story. You're the facilitator for their story. That's how I think about it. And I think that I get more out of people through that way, so I don't feel the pressure to. I mean, I've been told things before when I've gone into interviews, like, make sure you ask about her boyfriend. I'm like, I'm not asking her about that boyfriend. Like, A, I'm a feminist. B, she is successful in her own right. I'm not going to ask about her boyfriend unless she wants to open up about it herself. So I think that that is the key to it, is actually just trying to be a good person. And then the results will follow. So I was actually going to say, I think that often actually in focusing so much on a kind of agenda-driven

interview, you actually lose out on so much kind of granular, the breadth of the interview, I think, can be quite reduced by that kind of Paxman style. There's a good point about that, because I had Jessica Gunning from Baby Rinder on the podcast when she was at like the height of that explosion. And she came on the podcast and I kind of had an agenda about what I wanted to talk to her about and like I had an idea because I always have a kind of idea but like let's try and talk about this important issue and I said to her a very open-ended question which was do you feel more yourself than you've ever felt before in your whole life because you know you're really successful now you're achieving all these things I did not expect

the next answer and she said that I came out recently well about 18 months ago and then we had this really amazing conversation about coming out later in life and how impactful that was for her And she's one of the greatest people I've ever met. Oh, my God. What an amazing performer. What an amazing human. And to share that story with me, I felt so grateful. Because also, I've been there. I've been through that. And when she said, oh, I came out recent. I came out two years ago. I was like, welcome. Like, icebreaker. Like, yay. But I never went into that interview thinking that I was going to get that in avert, comma, scoop. So you never know where a conversation is going to go. And you also, you always. seem to let conversations go as well. Like, if you have an agenda, you're never going to achieve everything you're going to want to achieve in a conversation. You're never going to. Like, so many times I had Sadiq Khan on recently and I had this whole agenda I once talked to him about violence against women. And we just ran out of time. I just had to let it go, you know? And can I just ask with that, you interview such a broad spate of people for the podcast. So just recently you've had Sadiq Khan,

Mayor of London, as you just said. And then I think last week it was Rosie Huntington Whiteley. Yeah. So two totally different. Very different people. Very, very different people, both in the look at for very different reasons. When you're sitting down to prepare for these interviews, how are you approaching that preparation research process? Do you have quite a different approach from person to person? What does that look like? I kind of have the same approach for everyone in that I will look at probably the biggest interview they've ever done. It's probably got the most headlines. So I can understand what their biggest statements have been about themselves or their projects or whatever that might be. I will then look at the most recent

interviews they've done. So if they're on like a chat show circuit, I'll look at like what they said on Jimmy Fallon, what they said on Seth Myers. So I know that I'm going to get something different from them. So I'm not going to ask the same questions. And then I go quite into their back catalogue, like probably most of the times when you're interviewing, I'm mostly interview actresses. So when they come on, they are promoting a project. So I'll watch the show. Okay, that's a key detail or the movie and I'll watch surprised at how many people don't I mean yeah there are a lot of people who don't do that and then I'll watch a couple of like big things that they've been in um yeah so that's kind of the research process and then I

will think about as a listener because I know what my listeners kind of want now I'm like what would they want to get out this conversation or what's going to resonate with them so I'll ask some questions that I know what my listeners would kind of want to know or what I would want to know from them and then I just let it go and it's so funny because my producer Amy always laughs because I create like the longest scripts if you saw the scripts I wrote

the amount of questions I put in are like extreme but I just like knowing that I have them in the back of my head and I will never go through the same the same oh my God I can't even think of the word order of questions

there we go wow big word really great chat guys order a question I will never go through the same order of questions. So I'll just see where the conversation flows. And trust myself as well that I know that it's going to go where it needs to go. And I guess with that, what is so important is active listening, which is a kind of frame that I think gets bandaged around a lot without me sometimes really knowing what that means. But what you've just described there, being able to have the freedom to let an interview or let a conversation kind of follow tangents and go down rabbit holes that actually

drop some really meaningful, interesting material is, you know, so reliant on being able to actively listen to the person you're speaking to. What are your top tips for active listening? And perhaps you can kind of describe what active listening really means for us. Okay. So there's a whole chapter in the book about becoming an active listener. And I think it's the best skill to learn. It will get you the furthest in life and it will get you the most out of yourself and the person you want to talk to. Active listening is about being completely engaged with the person who's sat across from you. So it's getting that phone off that, table. If that phone's on that table, you're not really listening because you're saying,

yeah, you're no swiping, definitely not during a conversation unless we're doing it together and it's part of the conversation. So I call this process neglecting. It's when you neglect a conversation for your mobile phone. And so many people, I can already see mobile phones on the table all here. So if you are sat with that, say like if I was sat across from you, I'm thinking, well, that phone is probably the most important thing to you, not what I'm saying. If I'm in a conversation with you, because you could easily just put that up and flip it round. So get, the phone out the way that's not active listening if your phone is even anywhere near you while you having conversation it's about being completely locked into the person around you so you're almost

practicing something that i like to call mindful listening where you're just shutting off everything out so clearing out your brain like before i go into a conversation with someone i like take myself off for a moment especially if i'm doing an interview and i will try and clear my brain of everything else that's going on you don't need to be thinking about your to do list you don't need to be thinking about what you're going to be doing next you need to be locked in and when you start practicing that all the anxieties and all the fears you might be bringing into a conversation or not even relate to that conversation start to dissipate it's a scientific fact you start to relax and it's so great how listening how impactful listening is for our mental health and well-being especially for

the other person as well because there's no greater way of showing you care for someone than actively listening to them and giving them that your undivided attention and then that also means when they're speaking, not interrupting. It means not offering unsolicited device. You know, there's so many times when our friends are like tying us a deep, dark problem. You're like, oh, have you thought about it? And they haven't actually finished yet, babe. So, you know, take a step back. And also asking beforehand, do you want advice or you just want me to listen? That's a good one. That's a good question to ask. I asked all my friends that. That's a friend of mine just mentioned me over the day about another friend who's having a bit of a hard time. She's like, I keep giving her

advice, and this friend gives a lot of advice, very good advice, but a lot of advice. So I keep giving her advice and she keeps bloody ignoring me, so I just give up. And she was like, maybe she actually doesn't want advice. Maybe she just does want someone to listen and actually doesn't want you to come straight in with the solutions, but actually just needs a bit of space and a bit of time and a bit of kind of care to kind of work through what they're going through. Some people really need that. And also, it's about keeping eye contact the whole time you're talking to someone. Like, we're so afraid of keeping eye contact with people. And that's such a crucial. thing about active listening because if you're keeping eye in contact with someone there's no

quicker way to show that you care about someone and giving them eye contact it shows you're locked in it shows that you care it's such an important thing to do even if it's a bit awkward at first but i've got practice i always look at one eye not both eyes now i'm trying to just look at one eye it's so much it's easier because if you're doing two it's like well that's overwhelming too many eyes easy try this after seriously it's actually quite a quite a mindful it works which i'd look into yeah and just Can I ask, from interviewing just so many high-profile people from Oprah to Victoria Beckham, who you've interviewed four times, I believe. I mean, spice up your life.

I mean, the dreams of a six-year-old, Spice Girls fan. Quite literally. What have you learned about the art of great communication through these sort of people, through the operas of the world? The crucial thing I always think about great chat is the key to it is being interested and being interesting. the two most important things ever. Like, you need to be interesting. You need to be interested in others. And I always remember when I interviewed Oprah because I went into that situation. I was so nervous, as you can imagine. I was like, oh my God, she's the ultimate interview. Like, how am I

going to do this? And I realized that what would Oprah do in that situation? I talk about this in the book. And Oprah would always be herself. That you always know what you're going to get from an Oprah interview, right? Every single person knows what Oprah interview is going to be like. So I was like, I'm just going to be me. Like, and so I went in, I was my camp sound. And I was my camp sound. calling Oprah Babes going into all these like fully chats that we were having and she ended up extending an interview time she's having such a great time and I was like wow and even though the thing about that interview it wasn't necessarily I got the best things ever out of her but the thing that I learned about that is the way that I'm going to be successful a bit like what I was

saying earlier is by being myself and meeting they can meet me where they are I can meet them where they are but the way that we're going to get this and it's going to be amazing it's to be different is by being me and not trying to be like everyone else. So like being like Oprah, Oprah never tries to be anyone else ever. And she's like a portable safe space. That is why she's so successful. A portable safe space is a fantastic description. Everyone should be a portable safe space. Go out today and be a portable safe space. That is our challenge for you today. And Josh, you've now had experience of being both the interviewer and the interviewer on this book tour. And also interview lots of people, as I said, what do you think is the key to being a good interviewee?

Okay, so a lot of people ask me this because job interviews are key to life. Exactly. And I always think that the way you're going to nail a job interview or any kind of interview is to ask questions of the person that is interviewing you, right? So, for instance, you know that dreaded part of a job interview and I go, have you got any questions? And you're like, like, I actually have four many questions apart from, are you going to give me the job? what's the pay, what's the pay, please, how long is it going to be until you tell me when I'm going to get the job? Have I got the job? Like, those are the questions you really want

to ask. Do you hate me? Do you like my dress? Do you like, do your research on people, right? So if you know, like, LinkedIn is a great tool for this. Like, if you're going to be interviewed by, I don't know, the head of Facebook, go into the head of Facebook's LinkedIn and look at their career history. And at the end, when they say, you've got any questions, ask about them. They want to feel valued. They were everyone wants to feel important in life. So if you then said, oh yeah, so you've been at Facebook for like 10 years, what's the greatest change you've seen at Facebook in the last 10 years? What's the moment you're most proud of achieving in that career in that last 10 years? And they're going like, wow, okay, this person's turning up. They've got energy. They're interested in me. And that's so

important. Because in any kind of interviews, it's a two-way street. It's not just a one-way street. So I think that's really important to remember that. And if you do those, kind of tiny things, you're going to be so memorable. And it's also like in dates, right? So, if you're going on a hinge date straight after this, go back into the hinge profile. To the evening, Josh. Not to the evening. But if you're going into, go back into the hinge profile and be like, okay, so they say they like mountain biking or something. Why ask them about my mountain biking? Like, oh, I saw it. Paragliding. Is it a paraglider? Stunning. What skill. I know. So ask about that, babe. There you go. Absolutely. Will. I'm going to blush.

Cut that out of anything we do. I'm totally thinking about the paraglider now. Josh, you completely shared me. And then what about the context of, for example, doing a podcast interview? I think more people now, you know, we've got loads of fantastic podcasts, more kind of career-focused podcasts. And, you know, some people here might be invited onto someone's podcast to talk about what they've done in their career, something, you know, memorable that's happened to them. How do you shape a conversation as an interviewee in order to be able to really tell the story you want to do. tell rather than being totally maybe led by the interviewer. Well, that's like really great media training, isn't it? I've seen this happen so many times. Like, I've interviewed people and they

will, they don't want to ask the question. They will just go, like, what do you think about that? And you're like, fuck, I actually haven't thought about how I think about that. So, always be prepared for the question to come back to you. It's actually a really good thing as an interviewee. Because then they'd be like, okay, cool. Then we can get into this chat. So that's a great tip. It's always be prepared to answer the question that you're going to ask. That's a really good one. And I think as well, it's just about, I mean, there's a whole chapter in this book about sharing, about the power of sharing, how powerful that can be. But if you're sharing to the wrong person at the wrong time, it's not going to be impactful to you. You know, we talk all the time in our

society now about how great is to talk. Yes, it's great to talk, but it's even more powerful to share with the right people for you in a safe space. So if you feel like, you're being asked questions and they are not where they're not, it's not things you want to share. You can just politely say, I'm not feeling comfortable enough to share that right now, but I can tell you this part of my experience or pick the bits that you want to talk about. Like, it's your life. It's your story. You have so much power in your story. So share it in the right ways and the right ways that feel comfortable to you. And I think that's a really important piece of advice because in today's social media adult society, there's a lot of pressure to package up

our traumas and overshare, I think, in many ways for the sake of good content. And in some ways, I think the ability to be able to open up and be more vulnerable online is amazing for some people. And I think you can definitely learn so much from other people's stories. But I do think sometimes, I've definitely felt this at points running sex talks, you can feel kind of pressure to open up about things that perhaps you're not quite ready to talk about. Yeah. When do you think, how do you know, how can you get at an internal sense check as to what you should and can share and what actually is probably best to be held back for the moment? The only person who knows that is you. And in the chapter in the book all about sharing,

I say about that there's no timeline for sharing. You might have a problem and you might need to vocalize it straight away. You might have to ruminate on it and work out how you feel about it before you start sharing it. But share it for the right reasons for you, not for the other person. I think that's the crucial thing when it comes to sharing or oversharing. I don't think there's any such thing as oversharing. I kind of can't stand that term in a way because if you're sharing something that's important to you, it's not oversharing. And the only way that we've ever got over any stigma in our society is through people sharing their stories, right? Like, we look at how mental health has changed and our perceptions of mental health in the last 10 years. That's only come through

amazing people opening up about it. Be that in the public eye, be that your best friend, be it Susan who lives next door, Susan a receptionist, whoever it might be. That's what's so impactful about sharing. So do it at your own time. Do it for you and don't do it for anyone else. You interviewed Emma Willis, who's the host of Love is Blind, woman. And she had some really good advice on boundaries. Yeah, so she's actually on the audiobook. So you can get the great chat audio book, wherever you get your audio books from now. Plug, plug, plug, plug, including Spotify premium. And so she came on the, she came on the audio book and we did like a great chat at the end of it. And her rule around boundaries focuses on the power of no. And that no is actually a

full sentence. And she felt like she went through so much of her career thinking that she shouldn't really be there. It was kind of an accident that she got this career. And so she felt like, oh, kind of an imposter really up until quite recently, which I was flabbergasted back. She's like my hero. Like I was like, oh my God, you're everything I want to be in a presenter and interviewer, everything full stop. So when she said that to me, I was really shocked. And she was like, so I never said no. I was always like, yes, yes, yes. And it wasn't until she was on the floor, not even know what day of the weak it was, that she was like, I need to learn boundaries. I need to learn the power of no. And that's a really impactful thing. And no is a full sentence. You don't always have to justify the reason why you

don't want to do something. You might just not be able to do it. You can't turn up as yourself. Like, there's a whole chapter in the book as well about looking after your social battery and nurturing and looking after your social boundaries. And they're so important. Like, you don't want to end up on the floor because you're people pleasing everyone else. So you really need to work on that and work out what your social battery looks like. What charges you? What doesn't charge you? What fuels you? What doesn't fuel you? What boundaries are really key to you, but which ones can you let go of sometimes? So, yeah. And Josh, you just said there, and that is fantastic advice. And I do, I completely agree with that in power of no. But you said there that you were surprised that Emma Willis specifically,

someone you really looked up to, had struggled with this inability to set her own boundaries at points. Are you often surprised by the reality of your guests, your interviews in person? I guess the reality versus their public persona. Well, everyone's just a human. I mean, this is what we've really forgotten in life. Like, we see people through screens all the time and they almost just don't feel real. But they have their own story. They have their own stresses. They have their own strains. They go through things you'll never understand. They might go through things you've been through too. And that's the thing, every single person is human. Like, the other day, I hosted the premiere of The Perfect Couple for Netflix, which was like the dream job. And I got to interview

Nicole Kittman on stage. It was like the greatest moment of all time. And she was great. She is so amazing. And she is just the most incredible person. Like, she's so caring. She's so kind. She's a wonderful human. And in those situations, you're just like, you're Nicole Kittman. Like, had a poster of you on my wall in Moulon Rouge when I was growing up in my tiny little village in the middle of nowhere. And now I'm on this situation where I'm literally interviewing you on stage. But the thing is, the thing is about that person, that post, and the person is sat in front of me is still the same person. It's a human at the end of the day. And I think that's what we forget. We think the celebrities are not humans, but they are. And that's why it's so impactful.

I think when you just ask them how they are, because they're like, oh, my God, no one's actually asked me this today. Because everyone in this junk, it's just trying to get something from me. Yeah And human to human contact You'd never be like Hi how's your divorce Is someone you don't know No exactly

Which is often what I'm going to go straight in it I'm conscious of times We're going to have to wrap up in a few minutes So I just want to get a couple Kind of What personal questions to wrap things up For today

And kind of get your reflections On some conversations that you've had So you said at the beginning of our conversation That was Haley Atwood Is the best Atwell sorry That was a conversation That was a conversation that changed your life

The advice that she gave you Is there what is the not to go super negative but is there a conversation that you remember as being kind of the worst conversation you've ever had or an example for you that's quite a bad chat um i've never really spoken about the ones that there's been like two that i did for the podcast that never saw the light of day because they were not what i think the podcast stands for which is creating empowerment and creating safe space as people and they were just not great people so i was like that's not coming out. So I won't mention those names. But one of the things, there's a conversation I had with

Caitlin Jenner when it was on stage in this similar situation. And I have very different political views to Caitlin. She's a Trump supporter. I'm definitely not. But she's also a member of the LGBTQI plus community and so am I. She has different views on the trans community to what I do. She doesn't believe that you should talk about pronouns at school. I do believe that kids should be able to talk about their pronouns. And she's from a complete different generation to me. And she's gone through a completely different experience. So even though she was saying views were very different to mine, I still had to respect her, had to hold space for her. And that's a really great life lesson because there's a whole chapter in the book about how to

deal with difficult conversations. And I actually talk about that because we've lost the ability to have difficult conversations with people. We can't stand to be around anyone who doesn't agree with us, right? Like, we go onto our phones and we see an algorithm every single day. So if you slightly start looking at right-wing content or left-wing content, you're only going to get pushed to the extremity of those two viewpoints. You're never going to see the middle ground anymore. So, this is why we have such a loud society now, because we're not having cross-way discussions. We're not having cross-opinion conversations. And so as soon as someone doesn't agree with us, we're like, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to be anywhere near you. Like, we're treating our whole lives

like social algorithms now as well. Our whole social lives are algorithms. And we've lost the ability to be able to hold space for people who disagree with us. And we've lost the ability to have conversations with people who disagree with us. And it's such an important thing, not only for our society, for me to learn something from Caitlin's viewpoint, but for her to learn something from my her viewpoint, maybe she might not take it on board. Maybe she'll carry on thinking the same thing. But at least you've given her something to think about, or she's given me something to

think about, or I understand something, her lived experience is so different to mine. So, of course, she's going to arrive at a different opinion to me. but it doesn't mean I can't respect her. In a context like that, when you're speaking to someone who has extremely different views to your own, what is your approach? What kind of questions do you ask? How do you deal with that sort of situation in an interview context?

Like factual questions. Keep it to the facts. If you're talking to someone who you completely disagree with, so for instance, if, I mean, there's so many wild political viewpoints at the moment, but I'm going to try and think, I'll work for this example. But so, like, if someone's saying that, Kamala Harris isn't black. That's a, that's a thing that's happening at the moment. It all said. Potential president of the United States. Ask them, why do you think that?

What evidence do you have to back that up? And if they have no evidence to back it up, which they don't, then you're like, okay, well, maybe you should maybe do the research before you start having those kind of opinions or vocalizing those opinions again. I think it's so important to keep it fat-based when you're dealing with people who disagree with you. Because emotion can really get involved. And as soon as the emotions come into it, you're getting emotional, you're losing control of the conversation. It's important to get emotional in conversations, but you need to make sure you're keeping a handle on it in order to get to a point where you're even going to come to a point of understanding or you're going to go, I don't agree with you,

but we can move on. That's fine. And it's the power of the five why is, isn't it? Just ask why? Why? Why do you think that? Ask why again? It's like the refugee crisis. Like, any time I say to people like, oh, refugees should not be here. I'm like, why do you think that? and they can't answer it. So as soon as you start asking, why, why, why, why, why, why, then they also interrogate their opinions because so many of our opinions just learn. We learn them from our parents. We might inherit these opinions. We might see it from the algorithm that we're getting served. And you could see those things as facts sometimes if you're not got the asterisk where it says, this is a lie and this has been fact checked.

So actually interrogate, well, it also interrogates you to, it compels you to interrogate your own That's so important. Which is integral. Now, just to end, I want to end on, in the way that you end the book, actually, on Paul Meskell. What did, I mean, a happy ending, surely. What did Paul Meskell teach you about the value of Insta versus reality? So at the end of the book, my auntie died when I was writing this book, and she was the greatest communicator that I've ever met my whole life. She always held space of people.

she was always an active listener. She's one of the most incredible people that I have ever met and I will ever meet because she was always holding space for people and always asking questions. Everything, what this book is about is what my Auntie Mary stood for. And I remember going to see her in hospital just before she died. And I said to her, Auntie Mary, because it was her 90th birthday. What's the secret to living for so long? Immediately, her answer was being there for and looking out for each other.

And I thought, wow, that is so impactful. This book is all about, like, how great conversation can prove your mental health and your well-being, build the connections you want in your life, and get the things out of life that you want. And the way that she was able to live until 90 years old is through having amazing conversations with people. Like, we really neglect how impactful conversations are for our well-being and how important connections are for our well-being. You know, it's, if you're lonely, statistically the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day on your mortality, that's wild. Which is insane. And it's on par with talking and having conversation to people is as important for your mental health and well-being as sleeping, as eating. So we really need to prioritise that.

So when she said that, I was like, wow, that is so impactful. And I remember being at her funeral and being in the graveyard. And I remember this thing that Paul Muscal said to me in an interview where he said, your Instagram following is never going to be on your tombstone. And it's so true. The thing that is on your tombstone, I was looking at these tombstones that it was like, Sarah, it was a loving wife, mother, amazing friend, whatever it might be. The job title's not even on there. The thing that it's going to be your lasting legacy in life and the greatest impact you

will have is on your relationships. Be that someone you meet for 10 seconds, be that someone you meet for half an hour, be that ex-boyfriend, be that ex-girlfriend, be that best friend you've had for 45 years. Those relationships will be your legacy. So work on them, match them, and they will help you as well. I'm sorry. Josh, I read that line in the book as I was about to reach for my phone to do a quick doom scroll. I was like, no, put it down. Put down that phone. Paul Mescal is right.

That's not you in your tombstone. I think you reference it as quote in the book, but it's Maya Andrews said. People won't remember necessarily what you said, but they'll remember how you made them feel. 100%. Which I think is one of the best piece of advice from a kind of conversational context. Josh, thank you so much for speaking with me today and for this brilliant book. As Josh has mentioned, this book can help you earn more money. by getting a side of pay increase

can help you from a dating context and I think so much of you said there Josh is conversation relationships are what it means to be human I mean it's the reason I set up sex talks I think we need to have better relationships and they are kind of the lifeblood of what it means to be human

so I feel so grateful to you for having written this and give us a kind of handbook on something that we can often take for granted and not really interrogate the way we host conversations than where we approach conversations. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

And thanks for coming, everyone. Rise and shine. Rise and shine. Exactly. Morning. Just a quick note, we have copies of Josh's book here, which are really able to purchase. If anyone has a question,

I know it's early. It's not that early, guys. I mean, it's almost 10. But do we have any questions? I don't want to go off without giving anyone an opportunity if you've got a burning question. And we covered a lot.

So, okay, it's more. Oh, okay. I'm just following up on the difficult conversations, I shouldn't have a habit of sometimes having a dissenting view. And like you said, it is very difficult or people aren't used to having a conversation people disagree with. And so often they'll turn it to a personal attack instead of actually just keeping on the facts. So there's any advice how to engage in those difficult, especially if you're in the dissenting view and you feel like you're actually helping the group by showing a new light on something. And then you get that personal attack and usually just kind of want to, okay, well, if you don't want to talk to me, us back away then. But how do you reengage in a fact way? That's a really tricky one and there's

loads of vice bell in the book, wink wink. I'm joking. But I think what's really difficult that situation is if you are trying to have a balanced conversation with someone, like all conversations should be balanced. And if you've held enough space for them to vocalize their opinions, their thoughts, their bug bears about whatever topic it might be, and they haven't afforded you the same space, then walk away from the conversation. I think, or say to them, for instance, if they're shouting you down where you've said to them, oh, have you thought about this? And I'm like, wow, blah, blah. And if you've afforded them the space and the time to listen to them, just say to them, would you mind just listening to me? Take the venom out of the situation,

be like, I'm really sorry, I've taken the time to listen to you. Please, could you listen to my opinion on this? Because it's really important to me. And even just statements like, this is really important to me, I'd really appreciate if you listen to this, are so impactful because they're suddenly going to default and they're going to be like, oh my God, okay, yeah, okay, I'll give you the space because they're going to feel like bad people and no one ever wants to feel like a bad person. So I think that's a really good piece of advice for those situations. And if you've gone through that whole process and they're still shutting you down, just be like, I'm really sorry, but you haven't afforded me the same respect that I afforded you. So I'm going to leave this conversation

now. Done. Like, you don't need to give them their energy if they're not going to give you their energy back, I think, personally. I don't know if that's helpful. Is that helpful? And that's really helpful. Also, I think that's just what you're doing there. So you're humanizing the conversation. It's always about humanizing it. It's humanizing because sometimes we just so get caught up. I know it's especially, particularly on DMs, when people attack you in your DMs. Oh, wow. They are vicious. They're so vicious. And often I think there's just there's a lack of humanity that's being acknowledged there. Yeah. And as soon as you then, and I have this, and people attack me on DMs. And then I in turn, I'm like, this person is X,

X, Y, and Z, and I get so kind of enraged by it because we're kind of, we're operating this kind of high octane level. And as soon as you, if it's a friend, because that has something sometimes, you meet in person, you chat and you're like, oh my gosh, we're not, we're not worlds apart on this. But actually, it's bringing that kind of humanity back into this and all kind of, hyper, kind of was extremist kind of way of thinking. It's so true. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about the social algorithm saying, like we're so used to being able to now be able to shout into a void and shout into a void, leave these comments and never see response. And social media

operate. It's making us angry it. There has been research. I can't just read something the other day that was saying how, I mean, we know that the more divisive the content, the better it performs. And if you think that, I mean, just how many times a day do you scroll kind of mindlessly without even thinking on

a social media platform? And we're just ingesting so much often quite hyperbolic, often quite kind of more extreme leaning content. And what is that doing? It's kind of fueling this internal kind of rage gauge in us. And I think that's invariably going to have an impact on our then in-person human connections. Did we have one more person here? Yes. Hi, thank you so much for everything

that you've been sharing today. I think from my perspective, we've talked about interviewing people and one-to-one, but what about on a group level? How do you manage like connection or one of the things that we've talked about today is about relationships and kind of the social health and how can we connect to each other and have great conversations as a group maybe as well when there's like maybe more conflicting challenges and opinions great question the key thing about a group anyone you surround yourself with in life is thinking about it like a diet so if you're surrounding yourself if you're eating junk food every day you're going to feel bad about yourself if you're surrounding yourself with bad people you're going to feel bad about yourself so it's focusing on

making sure you're constantly surrounding yourself with people who fuel you especially if it's like a group situation because I've had so many discussions with people off the back of this book about being in like toxic groups where they're not afforded the same space as what other people are within the group or they're not listened to in the same way. So that's the first step is making sure you're in the right group in the first place, I think. And then again, it goes kind of back to what I was saying about the difficult conversations is making sure you're taking up your space. Don't let someone overpower you in a group situation. Like you're there. You're one fifth of that group. Everyone is one-fifth of that group. You might not be able to turn up in the same way as everyone

out every single day. They might be turning up and they're louder and prouder than ever before for that day. And they might go back to me in one-fifth of the group straight way afterwards. But it's making sure you're always looking after your piece of that pie in that group, I think is such an important thing to do. So people are talking over you the whole time, which can really happen in a friendship group sometimes. It's like, hey, babe, I'm just talking over me and actually, like, you know, I just want to share this. It's like, again, take the heat out of that. If you're not, if you're not being afforded the same space as everyone else is because some people can get carried away sometimes, not realize they're talking over you. And it's just making sure it's a balanced

conversation. So the same way as a one-on-one person conversation is a two-way street. It's in a five-way street. It's a motorway. So everyone needs to take up their own lane and have their lane and have their space and their time. And if there's someone in the group who's really socially anxious, for instance, there's a lot of stuff about dealing with social anxiety. If you've got it or you meet someone who has social anxiety and how to encourage your to come out themselves in the book. But if someone is really socially anxious in a group or they're quieter than usual, it's making sure you check in with them or giving them the space to talk. So if you're talking about a big topic or you're just talking about local gossip, whatever it might be,

be like, oh my God, babe, what do you think about that? Like encouraging them to open up. Or if they're a bit quieter than usual, being like, take them to one side or be like, are you okay? Like, what's going on? Like, you know, just checking in a bit quiet than usual. Give them the space to open up too. It's all about creating a space for each other and making sure it's an equal space in that. stunning diet. And what did you say before? Be a portable safe space. Be a portable safe space. Be a portable safe space. That's, I will not forget that. Do you have many more questions or we will wrap up there? Thank you so much. Thank you for those two brilliant questions. I really, really appreciate that. And thank you all so much for spending your morning with us. This was such a

lovely start of the day. Josh, I always love chatting to you. You are a great conversationalist. Thank you so much. And go and buy Josh's book. Huge round of applause again. Thanks, guys. And we can find you on Instagram, Josh Smith, hosts us. Yes. And you can find me, Emma Louise Boynton, and I host tons of Sex Talks events. So you can find them all there. Have a wonderful day. Thank you so much for listening to today's Sex Talks podcast with me, your host, Emma Louise Boynton. If you'd like to attend a live recording of the podcast, check out the Eventbrate link in the show notes, as we have lots of exciting live events coming up.

In the meantime, don't forget to submit whatever Adyant questions. you'd like us to tackle on a future podcast episode via the Sextalks website. That's sextalks.co.uk. And finally, if you enjoyed the show, I hope you did. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to this on as apparently it helps others to find us.

Have a wonderful day. Thank you.