Sex With Emily - Am I Dating A Narcissist? w/ Dr Ramani

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

Today, I am joined by Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a licensed clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychology who’s on a mission to demystify and dismantle the toxic influence of narcissism on all of our lives.We talk about all things narcissism, including the telltale signs of a narcissistic personality, what to do if you suspect your partner may be one, and how to break the cycle if you keep finding yourself attracting individuals with this personality. Plus, she details manipulation tactics used by narcissists (including the infamous Jeffrey Epstein) and explains popular buzzwords like ‘love-bombing’ and ‘trauma bonding.’For more information about Dr. Ramani, visit: doctor-ramani.comFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

[♪ INTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Narcissistic people often fantastic salespeople, because they have a tremendous ability to study another person, get the intel, and use it for their own narcissistic needs. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that block our sacred institutions. Betrubize they call them in a fight on day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. liberate the conversation around sex. Today we're talking all about narcissism, with one of the top experts on these disturbing personality types, Dr. Romani Dervosula. Dr. Romani is a licensed clinical psychologist who's on a mission to demystify and dismantle the toxic influence of narcissism on all of our lives. Her book, Should I Stay Or Should I Go, we talk about everything related to narcissism, like the telltale signs of this kind of personality, what to do if you think your partner is one. You find out who they're typically attracted to as well.

And she goes into detail about manipulation tactics and explains those buzzwords like love bombing and gaslighting. I really think you're going to enjoy this show. She is the renowned expert and I found all of this fascinating. And a lot of you have called in and emailing about your toxic relationship patterns. I think this is going to be super eye opening. Alright, intentions of family. For each episode, join me in setting an intention. When you're listening, what do you want to get out of listening to this episode? It could be, damn, I want to figure out if my partner is a narcissist. My intention is to show you what it truly is, and how to make sure you don't get taken advantage of in the future. Ooh, we have a new survey.

It is our Better Sex Survey and 12 Days of Sex Miss. Sponsored by Pure Loop. Love their loop. We want to hear about what you've got going on right now. What are your sex goals for the new year? And there's also going to be prizes for 12 days from Pure Wevibe, Womenizer, Yarlab, and more. So all you have to do is take the survey to enter.

It only takes a few minutes, and I actually got an email today from someone who said that she was really inspired by it. She said it really got me to think differently about my sex life. So I think you're going to like it. I want to hear from you. Go to sexwithfamily.com slash survey and do it. It's fun. I promise.

Also, if you have any questions you want to ask me, you can call me directly. It is Monday through Friday, five to seven p.m. Pacific. I can help you figure out those next steps to your sex or relationship goals. And the number, you're gonna keep this, is 888-947-8277.

That's 888-947-8277. All right enjoy the show. Dr. Romney, welcome to the show. Thank you Emily. So nice to be here and get this chance to reach your audience with some of this information. When I first heard about you through my friend Jen Cohen and she said to me this was a May I was fascinated her interview and then I just went down the rabbit hole of all your videos on YouTube. So, let's just before we just start throwing around the term narcissism, let's first define narcissism. Yeah, so narcissism, it's like you and I have spoken about, it's a very misunderstood

term. It's characterized by a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, a constant need for validation and admiration. They're often very controlling in relationships. They're very sensitive to criticism. They take advantage of other people. They can be quite manipulative. They're very prone to rage. And they don't do well with frustration, stress, or disappointment.

At those times, they do tend to really blow up. Those are kind of the top notes, they're very prone to envy, they covet what other people have. Actually, in some cases they often feel quite victimized. Life didn't give them everything that they think that they deserve. Okay, so that's a great, that's a great overall picture of it. And then in listening to this, I think, well, I get stressed, I get upset sometimes, how do you know when it's a problem? when someone's actually, because then as we could use the term too much, so how do you... Sure.

I think that one of the things that confuses a lot of people is like, does this person have a diagnosis? You shouldn't call someone narcissistic, that's a diagnosis, it's actually not. There is something called narcissistic personality disorder, which is actually not that common. We see it maybe three to five percent of the population, but this pattern of narcissism is quite a bit more common. I mean, we don't have any good, we don't have great statistics on it.

If you ask me to spitball a number, I'd say probably closer to 15 to 20% of people, and that might even be an underestimate. But you ask one is it too much. You know, it's one of those things when other people are really being affected negatively by it. I agree with you. There are times I was on hold today for 30 minutes and someone I was incensed. The woman who answered the phone was clearly not, you know, felt bad that she put

me on hold and then she put me on hold for another 15 minutes of clean at the mess. And I'm seething at this point, but I thought I was able to say this woman is not responsible for this. This poor woman is far down the chain. She's just doing her job. It's late in the time zone, she's in. You know, instead of, I'm not going to get angry at her, I'm going to, you know, say, okay, this is maybe I should consider

whether I'm going to keep doing business with this company, but I'm not going to take it out on her. A person with a narcissistic personality style would never make that discernment. They would have gone to town on that woman, how dare you, how dare you waste my important time. A person who's really narcissistic just can't turn it off. They lash out, they rage.

These are the people who will just make messes and later on apologize. And since everybody is used to giving them second chances, they just keep getting away with it over and over. And that's the pattern. Gonna make a mess, I'm gonna yell at people, I'm gonna hurt people's feelings. And then I'm gonna say sorry, and it's the pattern. I'm going to make a mess. I'm going to yell at people. I'm going to hurt people's feelings. And then I'm going to say, sorry, and it's okay.

And then I'm going to do it again. Because there's really no consciousness around it then. It's a pattern and people have been enabling them, maybe perhaps for their entire lives. Is that what we're saying? Absolutely. You raise that fancy, fancy clinical terms. We say that they have low self reflective capacity, which is a really fancy way of saying they are absolutely unaware of who they are, what they say, how other people around them feel, and the deeper, darker part of it is they really don't

care. You know, they can care when they need to care. And this is what really bothers people. People say, golly, I was in a relationship with the narcissist and for the first month, he or she was the most attentive human being I've ever dated in my life. Like they remembered every detail about me, my birthday was pitch perfect. Like everything was like it was perfect. So obviously they have the capacity for this. If they had no capacity for empathy, they'd never get it right. They're often narcissistic people, often fantastic sales people, because they have a tremendous ability to study another person,

get the intel and use it for their own narcissistic needs. Does that make sense? If I'm having empathy for you, Dr. Emily, it's because you're a lovely person. I've heard great things about you, you're another human being. I care about you. You know, whether or not we were doing this show, you know, it's not like, well, I'm going to be nice to Emily, excuse me, but my show. And then I'm going to cut Emily loose. You know, it's not that that my point is, is that people often say, how can you say narcissists doesn't have empathy? They had a lot of empathy

in the beginning. And then it went away. What they have is this really incredible ability to turn that empathy on and off to suit their own personal needs. So I know you've seen so many people over the years in your office and you've written about it and you've researched extensively, but what if you have to say, is there a common story that you hear to explain if someone's going, well, I don't know if I'm in it if it's narcissistic, you know, I can't tell. Is there something you could kind of pay a picture you could pay for us? The client comes in and sits down and here's the story dating a narcissist.

You really look and you start counting up how many justifications they make for this person's behavior. The justification is the signature of the narcissistic relationship. Listen, none of us are perfect. You know, any of us who are in relationships know that we sometimes do say, you know what, my partner is not the best in the evening because he or she wakes up early in the morning, whatever. But this is regular justification is, you know, number one, it's making excuses for big-ticket stuff because you want it to work out because you're used to making those kinds of excuses from early in life.

A lot of people who might have had a narcissistic parent, for example, they're much more likely to choose a narcissistic partner. It's almost like it's familiar. But I think that another thing that people will often point out in terms of some of those early red flags,

they would notice a real sensitivity to criticism. They'd say, gosh, this person could really dish it out. But if anyone even made a tiny little joke at them They would blow up and it would feel so disproportionate and in those early days, especially updating They might say something like I just assumed it because he was drunk or I just assumed that this is something and maybe she was bullied about in the past It didn't stop to think like wow that is a diss proportionate really poorly regulated reaction. And that hypersensitivity to criticism combined with that need that you feel like you're always

making justifications for their behavior. Oh, they're late. They have a busy job. Oh, they got angry. They've been drinking too much. Oh, you know, they didn't ask me how I was feeling even though I lost my job last week, but you know, they're distracted. And maybe they feel guilty like always,

always making these kinds of excuses. And I also have to say a lot of people in relationship with narcissists who don't see those early red flags are doing a lot of what I call storytelling. They want this to work out. The reason a lot of people marry a narcissist is bad luck in timing. They meet them at an age when they're like, I want to get married, and I don't want to spend another six, 12 months finding someone else. There's enough good things about this person. Okay, let's make it work. And it'll be the single worst decision of their life, because if you think dating a narcissist is bad, try divorcing one. It is literally one of the most nightmarish things a person would go through, especially if there's children involved. And so

this idea of a biological clock at 35 has resulted in many in narcissistic marriage. Wow. We always talk about sex and relationships that people covet the honeymoon phase, that early part of a relationship, when everything was amazing and they were having sex all the time. And I always say, that was a very small portion of the relationship that we're talking the first three months, but a lot of people live there. They live in that place and sometimes, you know, I hear from a lot of it like they were

so nice or a lot of times it's about the sex, but what you're hearing is there's this bright light they turn on you. It's this intense focus to bring you under their layer in a way. It's a manipulation is what we're saying early on. It is. It's a manipulation. It's a manipulation is what we're saying early on. It is a manipulation. It's also a dream, right? You know, if you really want to go primal with this, what is every child crave to be seen,

to be loved unconditionally, to be really just sort of, you know, the center of a parents universe. A lot of kids don't get that. And so the idea of sometimes in adult relationships as a person falls in love, especially if they didn't get that, there's a craving for that. It's almost like this is where I'm going to work through the father for whom I was never enough, or the mother for whom I was never enough. Now I'm going to be enough. And in the midst of

this whole love bombing, idealization, seduction kind of a phase, that's where we start entering something. And I'm going to use a technical term and explain it called cognitive dissonance. Now, cognitive dissonance is this idea that we have a really hard time holding two things that don't agree in our mind at the same time. So the old story on that is sour grapes, right?

The fox saw the grapes. The grapes are really juicy and yummy. The fox couldn't reach them. So to help the fox deal with the bad feeling of like, there's yummy grapes. And I can't jump that high. The fox says, all those grapes are probably sour anyhow. Well, a different kind of thing happens

in the cognitive dissonance around a narcissistic relationship. In this idealized, seductive love bombing time, people wanna keep this and want this to last. Love bombing lasts anywhere from four to 12 weeks on average. So, in the short, it'd be about a month, on the long, it'd be about three months, much longer than that sometimes some people have told me six months, that's a bit of an outlier.

And what they want is, they want that to last, but the next step in a narcissistic relationship after idealization and seduction is devaluation. The narcissist does this interesting game. For them, they're really, really interested in the chase and the hunt. And so, and a lot of people almost resist it. And when the person finally thinks like,

nah, this really, I finally did get my fairy tale. I deserved this. They really do then. They kind of push all their chips to the middle of the table and they get all in. And then when the narcissist knows they have you, that's when the devaluation phase starts. It's almost instantaneous.

Like people will say, gosh, just when I moved in, this thing started going south. Right after I left my job and moved to the other coast, this thing stopped working out. I'm like, yeah, because the love bombing was done. They've got you. Once they got you, they have contempt for you. It's like you could set your watch by it. Now, let's explain love bombing. If you will, let's break that down what that exactly is. So love bombing doesn't always look the same. So when the classical kind of grandiose model, love bombing is really sort of the cinematic kind of seductive experience.

The person's really handsome, charming, charismatic. You do really cool stuff, but everything's too fast. It's very, very intense. And people will describe this as like, this person understands me, like I've never been understood before. I think I found my soulmate. I, this is a once-in-a-lifetime love story. And again, intense and fast, people will start traveling together very quickly. Hey, I'm going to the Bahamas next weekend. Meanwhile, it's like your third date. Probably not a good idea to fly to the Bahamas on your third date, unless you're already living the Bahamas. Okay. So it all happens fast. Your meeting friends, your meeting family, there might be expensive gifts. There might

be a quick move like, Hey, my lease is up. We've been spending 24 seven together. You move in really quickly after like six weeks. And it seems like it's all just about a convenience, but we're together all the time. You do you neglect other stuff in your life. You might find yourself taking time off from work or it happens at a time when you do have more time and you're with this person all the time. There's a lot of intensiveness in terms of good morning, babe, come on in princess, thinking about your babe, what you do in babe, good night, and it's interesting because this is something very stalking about that. People are like, oh, I love the good morning. Yeah, he just needs to know where you

are all the time. And show me where you are is they want to make sure they know you're whereabouts and all of this. I mean, sorry for being the anti-cupid, but a lot of the stuff that's gotten romanticized is actually kind of stalky. And it is, it's the beginning of a controlling dynamic. And so, not all love bombing is grandiose in presence and a hundred roses showing up at your office kind of thing. Some love bombing is really what I call like sort of a, it's a rescuing love bombing.

And what happens in, and this happens with a different kind of narcissism with a person, it's called covert narcissism. Covert narcissists aren't so big and charismatic and charming. They tend to be a bit more victimized, resentful, sullen, and they feel angry at the world and they never got their shot and why didn't they, you know, why didn't the world see how great they are?

And when people meet them, people who are naturally rescuers will often feel like, well, gosh, this poor person seems so talented and they never got their chance in the early phases of the relationship. The covert narcissist, like I said, may not be the hundred dozen roses or the, you know, the sums that cruise, but maybe more of the, they tell you everything about themselves. They tell you about how terrible their childhood was. They tell you these really kind of sad, victimized stories. And they say, you know, I just wish somebody would have believed in me.

You know, you seem like an amazing person. You seem like you get me and you're like, you want to be that amazing person who gets them. And so before you know it, you're alone in the money, you're given them your car, you're making calls to get them connections. And that love bombing feels different, but it's still very love bombing

because you're getting sucked into this idea that you're gonna be the one that kisses the frog and turns them into a prince. We're gonna be the one that changes them. I'm talking to Dr. Romney. When we come back, we talk about why narcissists are really insecure, and Dr. Romney breaks down Jeffrey Epstein's manipulation tactics.

Dr. Romney, thank you for being here. This is such a great conversation and super helpful for everyone to spot it because there isn't aha moment when you're such a few if you're somebody who is a fixer, and you think, you know, we talk ourselves into it saying, well, they're not that bad. They only forgot my birthday one, so they only didn't ask me how to do it,

just twice. And so, is there a sort of personality type of people that you find drawn to narcissistic partners? It's a pretty wide range. I think there are certain personality styles where people with certain histories that are a little bit more vulnerable. I think people like you call them rescuers or fixers. Highly empathic people are often, you know,

get corralled into relationships with narcissists. When people meet someone at a transitional time of their life. So you meet, it's often easy to get stuck into a narcissistic relationship when you're new in a city, at a new college, in a new job when you're traveling. So these sort of transitional times when you're kind of disabled, so it could even be if you've just experienced a big loss, someone in your family has died or you've gone through a divorce. So you're not quite a fully on your feet.

That's another time that people are very vulnerable to narcissists. People with histories of trauma, their decision making and relationships is often impacted in the long term, and they will often find themselves in relationships characterized by almost further ongoing invalidation. And believe it or not, like people obviously who had narcissistic parents, not surprisingly, are more likely to choose narcissistic partners. But there's one group that might be, you might be surprised at people who grew up in really, really, really happy families are actually tremendous narcissistic bait. And I'll tell you why they're so used to love solving everything. And

people are good. And you know, their families will even say, Oh, come on, give them a shot because we're a family that draws together. and he's just part of our family. So we're going to love him back. And you'll see these people who really believe that love and family is also good. And they sometimes take it real hard because they refuse to believe these ideas like people really don't change so they can get stuck for a long time. So you can see it's a pretty wide range of people who are quite vulnerable to this. We are, but I love that you're saying is that

so often we do think with hard enough work and consciousness and maybe a little therapy, people can change if they want to change. What about the narcissist? The narcissistic personality style is really, really, really resistant to change. These kinds of high conflict antagonistic, difficult personalities are super rigid.

You think of something rigid, it's like something heavy, you can't move it, you can't bend it, and this is no different. And so because of that, they're just not amenable to change. And remember, most narcissists think there's nothing to change. They are more likely to blame other people. This is other people's fault. This is the world's fault. You know, this isn't about me. I didn't do anything

wrong. And because they're so quick to deflect blame on other people and they're not able to internalize their accountability, their responsibility, they just don't take it. And so there's no motivation for them to change. And if there's no motivation to change, a person's never going to change. So the likelihood of successful therapy with a narcissist is tough because the majority of them don't think that what they're doing is a problem. Now, if you put someone in front of me who's like, listen, I see all these patterns of myself. I'm not empathic enough.

I do, I don't think the rules apply to me. You know, I'm kind of a jerk and I've seen now that I've heard a lot of people. I'd like to commit to changing. Now you've given me something I could work with. Now it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to work because what it does mean is that for the rest of that narcissistic person's life, they have to be mindful in all of their interactions.

They don't get to go have their usual rageful temper tantrums. They actually have to take the time to pay attention to other people's feelings. And quite frankly, that's exhausting for a narcissist. And especially if it's your conditioning, your entire life, if you're 40 years old, you're like, okay, now I'm gonna start paying attention

and being in path, I think it's a whole new skill set. So let's back up for a second. I'm curious, how does someone become a narcissist? Like isn't it true that we're all born as babies? We all have the same opportunities to grow into a kind human being? Or is it nature, nurture? What do you think about it?

It's more nurture than nature, but it's definitely, there is a little bit of nature in there. We're not actually all born made to become this kind of... I know, I just like that. Yeah, it's a nice thought, but it's not true. And some people are born with more difficult temperaments. Some kids are born highly, highly, highly sensitive.

They're very difficult to sue. It's harder for them to form attachments. So some people actually believe that narcissism is a post-traumatic state. That's one explanation. It actually holds some water that a person who's narcissistic actually didn't have safe and consistent early attachments.

They have very anxious attachments. They have very avoidant and dismissive attachments. Their emotional worlds weren't often sufficiently fed. Sometimes their material worlds were, they get a bike every Christmas. They have the latest video games. They get to go to lots of theme parks. They may have grown up in a beautiful home,

but none of their emotional needs were ever met. Add that in with their highly difficult or highly sensitive temperaments that it can really make a sort of a volatile combination. And then these are kids who sometimes in some cases are really kind of, they start to realize that they're only validated when they perform. So if they look pretty or they're the perfect ballerino, they're the perfect soccer player, or they get the basketball trophy, or they win the spelling bee, then they're loved. But if those things aren't going on,

the parents aren't that interested. So it's almost like the kid feels like a performing pony rather than as a human being, and then as they go into adult life, they retain that performing pony feel to them rather than a fully empathic feeling person. Oh God, I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, because that is our society, right?

It's all about achievement or looking good or feeling good. So it makes sense why a lot of us get caught up in this perfectionist loop or we're all about achieving. Once I get the next thing, then the next thing, the next thing I'll be happy. So what we're talking about then is early caregivers who aren't allowing us to experience the range of our emotions and feelings.

It's like a parent to maybe who was a little bit, neglectful or if your parent wasn't there for you, let's say, but the only time you're getting attention is when you do something, right? So isn't a lot of it what we're talking about is like emotional regulation stuff, something? Yeah, the core element of narcissism is emotional dysregulation.

They don't know how to express feelings. There's some people that argue that people with narcissism just don't have a vocabulary to talk about feelings. But more than anything else, narcissism, the core core core of narcissism is insecurity. These are deeply insecure people. They constantly perceive the world as a place of threat. They always think that someone's trying to get something over on them.

If you always felt like the world was a place of threat, you'd have your fist up all the time too. Because of that chronic sense of insecurity, they tend to be insecure people are actually really, really problematic people, because they are, again, they're always defending themselves against this perceived threat that often isn't there and that's why people who are narcissistic can almost seem somewhat paranoid. But it is a that insecurity comes from a childhood where they were never felt safe emotion. That's what it is.

It's feeling safety. It is right. It all comes back to the parents. They didn't feel safe. They didn't know they had the things, but they didn't have the safety or the consistency of parental love. You know what, I thought about the documentary with Jeffrey Epstein,

because you see that, right? His first step was to, he would bring them to give them a massage. And then in the first five minutes, he would ask them questions about themselves. They would reveal a lot of personal information. Like, oh, I've had a rough childhood, my parents have no money, I've been working hard. And it's all to collect data. I mean, that's an extreme example, Jeffrey Epson, but in the sense, this is what the narcissist is doing every time they meet anybody. And

for them, it's defense mechanism to be feel safe, but they're still, maybe they don't even recognize they're doing it. But they're collecting data constantly. I think they're very aware of they're doing it. They're very even recognize they're doing it, but they're collecting data constantly. I think they're very aware of they're doing it. They're very aware of they're doing it. They'll often say, like, I can read anyone. Give me five minutes with anyone and I've got them figured out. So it's very intentional. So is there anything that we could do then?

Because what we're saying is sometimes it's familiar from childhood, right? So it's familiar, like if our primary caretaker, one of them, let's say, was a dark sister, this behavior is familiar. We're gonna confuse that for attraction. This should be my partner more because it's familiar, not because it's someone we should be with. So we often talk on the show about breaking patterns, right? We keep dating out.

If you lie, if you lock eyes with someone across the bar that you think they're the one, like walk the other way, right? Like try to change the behavior. And so how much success I know that the nurses might not change that much, but what about the people who keep getting in relationships with them?

Is there some good tips for those people? So I think that what happens is when people start using words like magical connection, I felt this electricity. We are so connected. I'm like nah. So I think that when it feels almost irrational, primal, magical, then it's going back to some of the stuff that you're talking about, Dr. Emily, that idea of that sort of those early primal activations of early unhealthy relationships, quite frankly. And I think that it's really about, it's interesting, I say to people,

one of the safer things somebody can do, if they have been through a childhood experience with a mother or father or both, where they were gaslighted and where they had a narcissistic parent, they would do well to enter into long-term relationships through the bridge of friendship. Because friendship doesn't have as much of the sparkly Zazazoo that gets people into trouble. And friendship is so much more of an intentional, deliberate kind of an experience that you do start, you're almost seeing some of the flaws from a rational perspective, rather than in this kind of almost like, you know,

delusional love mommy experience. That's one great way to do it. Because I think that what happens is that idea of cognitive dissonance, I was talking to you about two things, having two things that don't go together, like, wow, this person's treating me really badly, I'm crazy about this person.

So what do you do? You justify their bad treatment of you. That's what that person's been doing since childhood. My father is so mean and cool to me, but dad always gets us the best presence when he travels on business. So they have to come up with that other thing. Otherwise, they have to look into the abyss

and realize that dad's not a good guy. You know, like really mean guy. And that's really hard for a child to reconcile. So when the child has to keep making these justifications for a parent, it becomes almost automatic that they'll make them for people, including partners in adulthood. So I do think that one of the biggest issues

then becomes pacing, that you need enough time to get to know this person without it being, so the idea of the narcissist rushing the process is very much taking things to their advantage because when things are rushed, a person can't take the time to be much more deliberate because remember, narcissists believe it or not for all their bluff and bravado, they're terrified of abandonment. And so they don't want you leaving them, they want to be the one to leave because that's the power move. But if people find them out, they do live in constant fear that people will leave them. Yeah.

I mean, God, this is fascinating. So the narcissist is living in constant fear that someone's going to abandon them. And so then their partners, let's say, they're the people who are vulnerable or codependent. I mean, aren't they also, is it more like because the narcissist comes on so extreme? Like this is my way, it's right. So you think, and maybe you're a moron pathic. So you're able to see both sides. Is that what it is?

You're like, well, if they're so sure about it, then it must be right. You know what I'm saying? Is that more likely to doubt ourselves? 100% because remember, conviction is very seductive. It's gonna be this way. That's why you're right. Exactly.

Because the conviction is seductive. Yes, gonna be this way. That's why you're right. Exactly because the conviction is seductive. Yes, because it's parental. That's why parents say, we're getting in the car now when we're going to grandma's, right? That's conviction. You're two, you're three. I mean, I guess that's all the conviction.

You're like, okay, that's what they're saying. And a child goes along. There's a reassurance in childhood that that's why kids need bed times. That's why kids have meal times. Because that routine and that safety is very reassuring for child. Even when they fight against it, believe it or not, there's a primitive need for somebody to say, no, it's bedtime now. We're brushing our teeth now. We're eating now. And the child, they slowly internalize that structure,

which helps them feel safe in the world. So when someone rolls up and says we're doing it my way, believe it or not, although it sounds anti-autonomous and all the things we want to healthy adult to be, people get reassured by that. And since so many of us are sort of plagued by our own small insecurities, we're like, well, they seem really sure of themselves. I'm not that sure of myself. So they must be right. Exactly.

I've done that so many times with people. I've had to notice it now. I'm like, oh, well, they must because I'm so looking sure of myself, so they must be right. Exactly. I've done that so many times with people. I've had to notice it now. I'm like, oh, well, they must be because I'm so looking at all the sides. I don't know if I'm right, but they're certain. So let's watch for those signs. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to tell you how to break the cycle.

If you keep finding yourself attracted to narcissists and the deeper problems of trauma bonding. Don't go anywhere. Let's talk to Kim 58 in Illinois who is in a relationship with a narcissist for 25 years. Hi Kim, you're on with Emily and Dr. Romani. Thanks for calling. Hi, Emily and Dr. Yesani. Thanks for calling. Hi, Emily and Dr. Yes, actually, I divorced that man

and the next three men I got with, exactly the same. I don't get it. I don't know why. I've heard so many shows about this, so many books. I mean, what's hard is the one I'm with now, I really want to stay with like, like I, like I,

narcissists like if they, and the other half, I absolutely adore, of course. Like, you know, you say, and I'm stuck. I'm stuck. Oh, okay, well Kim, I mean, I love that you're so self-aware about this, but now you are married

to one another. There's been three more and you want to stay. So one of the things I'd want to know from Kim is, are these men at all reminiscent of either of her parents? Of my parents? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Unfortunately, grew up watching this, watching my mom get beat up by my father. And I was sexually abused as a child and then physically abused by my first husband. So, you know, one thing is, and, you know, I mean, obviously you're in a relationship right now, Kim. So some of the guidance I'm giving here may not necessarily be on point for you, but in general. One thing I always tell people is once you get out

of a relationship with the narcissist, I want a 12-month detox, 12-month single. And I'll tell you why, because it takes about that long to kind of do the work interiorly, where you're like, mm, I keep recreating the relationship I had with my mother or father or both. I keep almost recreating my family of origin to understand the nature of the

trauma bond, what makes it so magnetic. Because by having that washout period, you might actually have a little bit more perspective on the issue. Because given that the pattern keeps repeating so consistently, and I'm keep using this term trauma bond, you know, the trauma bond is this, and sort of this relational glue that happens in toxic relationships, where in essence, the relationship, the unhealthy relationship is a reminder of an earlier traumatic relationship. And so the bonding is, so you keep calling it familiar, Dr. Emily, but this is sort of much more so the familiarity is very much oriented around the trauma. And what happens is that then love becomes conflated with abuse, love becomes conflated with a feeling of worthlessness. And so when a person is not having that experience,

but again, a person actually feels valued in a relationship, they may actually leave the relationship saying that I wasn't feeling it, it kind of felt uncomfortable. They'll give us sort of a vague reason. But when they finally do meet a respectful kind, compassionate person, it's so foreign that it doesn't even feel like love. And that to me, the trauma bond to me is the great tragedy. And that's how they are at the beginning.

You know, they're exactly what I want. And then I find out that the relire, they have these addictions. They, you know, and I'm so glad that, Dr. you asked me that question. No one has ever asked me if I had this with my parents. And I know I had the most horrific childhood ever. And I'm so thankful that you asked me that

because like I know this, I'm smart as you know what. I know what is going on. And it's like I'm trying to get him to be this real person, this real honest person, but he can't, I've been with him for seven years, he can't, he just can't. And now I'm still stuck because he lives with me. I mean, Kim, I hope you can break out of this. Because Kim, at the end of the day,

the little girl you were growing up in that home, she deserved to be happy. And at some point as an adult woman, that's an adult woman, you can finally give that sense of happiness to that little girl and break out of these toxic patterns. Now, the wheel is in your hands, but this really does have those childhood origins.

If you don't need to keep recreating what you have with your parents. Yeah. Thank you. I am happier by myself, but it's like I want a companion to do things with. Right. And it's very, very hard for me to go on.

And I truly have never lived. Hmm. It's time. It's time, Kim. And also therapy would be great if you haven't. Yes. And I was assuming that that hasn't been asked you before.

A lot of the stuff when Dr. Romney was saying, you take a year and work on yourself. And that could be one of those satisfying relationships you've had. Thank you, Kim. Thank you for calling. Thank for calling. Thank you so much Dr. Romney. This was wonderful Dr. Romney at Instagram, Dr.Dash Romney.com. We'll give more information there. Check out your YouTube channel. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you. It was a real pleasure.

That's it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Family. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast. And share this with a friend or partner. Believe me, if you got something out of it, they will too. We release shows on Tuesdays and Fridays, and look out for a bonus episode every now and then. Find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter.

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