Sex With Emily - Being Monogamish with Tao Ruspoli

Episode Date: October 14, 2017

The concepts of marriage and monogamy have been around for ages, but does that mean they’re right for us all? On today’s show, Emily is joined by Tao Ruspoli, writer and director of his new film Monogamish, to talk about how relationships have evolved and expanded. Emily and Tao discuss his inspirations for making his movie, his own journey surrounding monogamy, and how we can talk to our partners about the relationships we want. The two also give their advice on how to move forward after breakups, how to let go of an infidelity, and worries over leaving the swinger lifestyle. This show is full of insight, great discussion, and raises the question– is monogamy for everyone? Tune in! Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: UVee, Adam & Eve, Magic Wand Rechargeable, Womanizer Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by Tao Roosbley, writer and director of Managamish, a feature film that explores what Managamy means or doesn't mean in today's world. We talk about the psychology of love and marriage and why there's more awareness today on the ever-changing landscapes of intimate relationships. It's really time to talk to our partners about what kind of relationships we actually want, versus the kind we're expected to have. We talk about feeling comfortable having these actual conversations and being more free

about our desires and choices. I so enjoyed learning about Taos Journey and having them weigh in on a few of your questions as well. This was an insightful discussion. I know you'll enjoy the episode. Thanks for listening. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Betrubized they call them in a fight on day.

Hey, Avaline, you got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair stand. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common knowledge? What do you mean like laundry? It shrinks. Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? You're listening to Sex with Emily.

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Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and Twitter. It's all at Sex with Emily. So this month, it's October and I know that we're all excited for Halloween and everyone tends to kind of revolve a lot around Halloween and dressing up and being sexy and all that. Well, here we want to give you some sexy trick or treats, but first we have to hear from you. Okay, here's our contest this month. We're going to give you, of course, some amazing, amazing products, toys, things that you're going to love. But I want to hear from you. I want to know your best sexy tricks.

So is there one sex tip that works to you every time or one move or maybe it's your favorite tip that you've learned, trick? Or is there a sexy treat, like a kutramon? It's like, what do you have? Do you have a great loop or toy or a product that you like that changed your life? We want to know if you email me feedback at sexwithalme.com and put Halloween in the title by November 1st, you could win.

That's what you got to do. I love you all. So thank you very much for entering. And now to the show, I'm very excited for my guest. I have Tao Roosbley is here and he is a talented filmmaker and he has created fiction and documentaries and most recently he has a film that's coming out This right now today in New York October 13th. Yeah, it's called monogamous and we're gonna get all into that But first I'm excited to talk to him about his personal journey making the film monogamous. And so welcome to studio. Thank you very much.

I'm so glad you're here. And so you made this film recovering from a heartbreak, a divorce. And you wanted to explore the notion and the relationship between desire and marriage and set out to kind of talk to your family and scholars and people you know about relationships. It started.

I was in the worst part of my breakup after being married almost more than eight years. I had a neighbor named Roberta and she was a 75 year old woman who had a little like blue hair and she had a 40 year old boyfriend and just loved to talk wildly about sex and relationships and she was just an incredible character.

And I was having trouble sleeping at night and like four in the morning I'd wake up and I'd see her window was the light was on. So I'd call her up and say, what are you doing over there? She's like, yeah, come over and have breakfast. And we'd start chatting. And I made a short film about her. I called it the love project.

And it was a 10 minute film. And she's, I mean, she's 75 years old. She's talking about her pussy. She's talking about it. I mean, she's just like completely. I love turning a 10 minute film and she's I mean she's she's 75 years old she's talking about her pussy she's talking about I mean she's just like completely yeah she's incredible and and and she's so frank and insightful and hilarious and and I showed the film you know it did really well on YouTube and then I showed it to Oliver Stone who's like been a mentor to me and he's like this is fantastic so I realized maybe I should turn this into a larger project. It started and it was all the way through a form of therapy in a way, like trying to figure out like what happened. Why is there this disconnect between the ideal of

monogamy and the ideal of marriage and the reality, which is that so many marriages end in divorce and relationships are constantly changing and ending. And there seem to be a disconnect between the ideal and the reality, as there always is in all ideals. But at first part of me was worried about the idea of a film about relationships seemed a little soft or mushy in a way. Like, you know, I went to Berkeley, I studied philosophy.

I made my previous film, I was about Heidegger, the German philosopher, kind of heady stuff. So the idea of like doing something about relationships, I didn't know if it was like intellectually rigorous or stimulating enough and boy was I wrong. Like I realized so quickly that you can attack this issue from so many angles and each one,

you could write a PhD thesis about whether it's historically, anthropologically, legally, economically, politically, religiously, and each of these huge kind of categories of the way we organize our societies inform this thing that we call marriage as institution, which as one of the lawyers said that I interviewed said You know, it's the most important contract you'll sign in your life and most people read it less carefully than they read their cell phone contract No, absolutely. Yeah, I'm still getting to my cell phone contract But I understand what you're saying that it is so this is why I love that you really tackled this first of all as a Documentary filmmaker in the past I don't even you're right with all those things You could have gone in so many different directions

with this because the institution of marriage, you know, is very confusing and flawed. I think that we all see marriage as the only option. That's truly what society holds up really, is that you get married till death, it was part, and then, you know, but then looking back at the history of it, I was gonna say that I actually started my show 12 years ago because similarly, I wasn't going through

a heartache, but I never had desired marriage. I never thought that it seemed like I'm like, why is everyone jumping into this institution that is so flawed, half of the marriage is end of divorce or whatever they say it is, people kind of dispute me on that, but no one seems that happy. And I did know people in alternative relationships

and I just wanted to know more and then also a couple with the fact that I wanted to learn how to best sex, because everyone's always saying they're amazing sex and I thought that seems like a worthwhile endeavor to learn that. So that's where I started to on that journey to kind of get some answers and then I, you know, then I kept going to get a degree and all that but with you moving into this, I can't imagine that you, when you were shooting, so I took you five years you said to make it?

Yeah, so, so I, when I decided to turn this into a longer film, I had been reading Dan Savage since I was a freshman in college and was always a huge fan. I just would, as soon as the weekly paper would come out up in Berkeley, like the big guardian. Yeah, exactly. I read it too. Are the weekly, I used to read every week.

It was the East Bay, the express was so. I was a huge fan and I would always like, as soon as the issue came out, I couldn't wait to. And it was much more marginal at the time, like it was called Hey Faggot. Yeah, Hey Faggot, yeah. And he was like very, you know, sassy and irreverent and I just ate it up always.

And so I kind of very naively and openly wrote him a letter saying, hey, I've been reading you since college. And I've just gone through this experience. And I'm thinking, make it movie. And I want to call it monogamous. And you should be in it. And I got an email like six months later from his agent saying, sorry, Dennis, too busy.

And I was only a little discouraged, but I just kept at it. And I started diving deeply into this subject and meeting all these like luminaries who have some such interesting things to say about it, but you know from Christopher Ryan who wrote Sex at Dawn to Esther Perrell and just so the movie started to get its own momentum as these things do. You said it earlier that it's a bit like giving birth and it is in the sense that also it has life of its own. And soon enough, it started to make

a more sense for Dan to be in it, not just for me, but for him also. Yeah, man, Agamish, he coined the term and for so many other things. I love that you actually wrote letters to him in the middle of your marriage that you never sent. That was part of your, then you said it's only like that. Exactly, exactly.

I'd been writing these letters. I mean, I had kind of adapted these thoughts that I'd been having throughout my relationship to into questions for him, as if I'd been writing to him for the last, like, 15 years. And so he finally agreed to come to my house in LA and we had this like amazingly thoughtful, in-depth discussion for two hours and it became the backbone of the film.

You use that kind of as the narrative. Yeah, I thought, yeah, you did a really great job with that. So I'm curious when you started out with the movie because you said it was cathartic, I'm sure. Pistol is. You said you did you go to therapy or did you just choose to make the film? I did a little bit of therapy but I think the film was the most worthwhile therapy. I'm sure. So what did you think you were going to learn versus what you actually learned? I did a little bit of therapy, but I think the film was the most worthwhile therapy. I'm sure. So what did you think you were going to learn versus what you actually learned? Well, I didn't know anything about like alternative literature. Oh, you did it. Okay, so that's what I mean.

I mean, a little bit from reading, like, you know, you're in there. And the interesting thing is how much the society has changed even in the five years since I started working on the film. So in 2011, when I started making it, the only people I could find who were like advocates of, you know, alternatives to monogamy were like pierced tattooed, BDSM, you know, very like fringe cultures. And as it was subtle, but persistent change that happened throughout the five years of working on it, where more and more, quote, unquote, normal people were embracing the fact that there are a million ways to organize a relationship, especially when you take away some or examine a little

bit more closely a lot of the unspoken assumptions that feed into like the traditional family model, which are steeped in religion and patriarchy. So let's talk about those unspoken agreements that are involved in traditional marriage. I know there's a lot there to impact. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people think of marriage as a romantic institution, and really it's an institution that was born, I think, to bring together families, which is not a bad thing, but it was a very strategic institution up for forming alliances.

This is from the lower to the upper classes. But what was interesting for me is that I have an old family in Italy that goes back a thousand years. So I was able to take the historical and turn it into the personal and go back to visit my family in Italy and look at how marriage had affected my own background and marriages were made to consolidate power and very much women were used as pawns in a game to bring together money and power. And the church was intimately involved too. My father was a prince and got his

title from the Pope back in the 1700s. And then my father rebelled very strongly against his background. He was born in 1924. His mother died when he was nine years old. His father was very militaristic fighting with, you know, under Mussolini in World War II, and he was disgusted by all of that, and started to rebel early on in the 1930s already, and 40s, and lived a famously kind of promiscuous, wild life. To you knew this growing up?

Absolutely. And he grew up in Italy too. Yeah, but when I was born, my dad was 50, my mom was 18. I love that you do weave your personal story. So that's just such an amazing part of the film too. We'll see it. I was like, what?

Wait, they kept going like 18 and 50, and then there was like kids, and then there were kids, and your grandfather and a kid, this, I mean, it was, yes. My grandfather was a, on my mother's side, was a spaghetti western star, was in like over 200 films, went to Italy, he was an American actor, and then he was friends with western star, was in like over 200 films, went to Italy, he was an American actor, and then he was friends with my father, and with Roman Polanski, which is where my parents met like at his house. And, um, it makes sense. Yeah, there were different times. Right. But, obviously,

yeah, I grew up in a very non-traditional family. But what's interesting as a documentary filmmaker is that the more specific you get and more seemingly idiosyncratic things can seem, I think the more universal the insights are. If you try and speak in generalities, it becomes cliche, it becomes platitudes. And I found that just looking at my specific situation with my specific marriage and my specific weird family history, both on the traditional long term

of the thousand years of history and my parents and their wild ways, I was able to uncover some deeper truths about the culture at large. And about the Italian Italian culture about your I think Western culture and and and and what we're going through that what's what's most important maybe is that to understand is everyone assumes that the way things are when they're around is natural and the way it's always been and the way it should be and the way it always

will be and really you just have to take a little step back to see that these issues are changing constantly. I mean look at the difference between the 1950s and the 1960s and the 1980s and today. And so we mustn't take for granted that the way we structure our relationships and our sexuality and our institutions of marriage is the only way to do it.

Right. And I think that that's what is changing. I would agree that in the last five years, even, you know, I've known a lot of people in alternative relationships that, and people I fight with people are like, I, you know, my friends are like, come on, they've ponytails or tattoos.

And I'm like, no, there's actually probably your neighbors are in alternative relationship and you don't know. And I think that people are getting more, are more open about it now. And we are starting to see a little bit more role models perhaps in those places, but not, not enough.

And so people are still getting married, thinking like, till death is part, I'm still gonna to be with one person. And they don't even know that there's other options and that there's things that would I always talk about on the show. And where I think will really spark a lot of conversations and a lot of homes after they see this or a lot of minds is that, wow, well, maybe I have other options. And maybe before I decide to get married till death is part that I'm never going to be with someone else, I'll just talk to my partner about this and say, how do you picture marriage?

You know, I always thought it might be challenging to be with one person or how do we do things come up? Sexually or maybe we don't want to live together, do we want kids and people don't even talk off they want kids before marriage. Like let alone like what's the construct of the marriage? So I think that you really showed, and I love that you have that couple,

that's like this couple that looks like they could you know be your neighbors or your friends and they're like oh but we're you're happy we met 10 years ago 8 years ago and now we've opened up our relationship or they opened it up a few years ago 8 years in this nice couple with kids and you're just not expecting that so it's like oh and so that's what I'm hoping to by having this conversation with you and your movie and my show too that people there are ways that you can not that it's going to be. And not saying that an alternative relationship is the answer very quickly either. No, if there was one way.

And it's all challenging. Like, relationships are hard. Like, they're just, I have challenges by my family and my friends. And instead, we worked through it with communication, but just know that there's other options. If there was one way to do this, that was the right way, we, someone would have figured it out a lot before us and everyone would be doing that. So this clearly not one answer. My humble hope with the movie is to say, like, let's have a conversation without shame

and that's, and what struck me and what I learned most is, A, it's always changing in the culture. It's always changing in individual relationships. You know, like none of the people who I talked to are in the same place now that they were when I talk to them. It was like really a moving target to try and even tell one story because the evolution is so constant in people's relationships. So from what you've learned though, let's say people moving into a relationship right now. How do you think this conversation goes if they're listening to this and they're thinking I might not want

that traditional, like how would you forget that the people are so afraid that they're thinking, I might not want that traditional, like how would you, you know, the people are so afraid that they're gonna be, what if I parted, then it doesn't want to be with me because he thinks I want to sleep with them. That's what I want to say before, is that? I read your mind. People, the biggest surprise for me was how much variety there was in what people were okay with and not okay with.

And I was amazed when I talked to, you know, there's, I did hundreds of interviews of people who didn't even end up in the movie, obviously, because you can only do so much in 90 minutes. But I remember this woman, it seemed very conservative, you know, middle class woman. And she said, I would much rather my husband have a loving sexual relationship with somebody else

than catch him like masturbating to his computer screen. Yeah. And I was like, really? She's like, yeah, because that's degrading to him and it's objectifying the women on the screen. And so then there's somebody else who says, my husband has had lovers and I'm super grateful to them because they provided something that I wasn't able to provide

and I'm happy that that happened, but I don't want other people knowing about it. Exactly. When people are very private too about this, because they don't want shame, knowing about it. Exactly. People are very private too about this because they don't want shame. They don't want people judging. People are as open to be like, oh, and here's my wife, they're company dinner. We're an alternative relationship last week and we had a threesome. People don't like that.

No, people are also like on the surface very liberal. And yet they can't tell people in their own family who are also very liberal, let there in an open marriage. And that they're allowed to do these things because they worried that of the shame or their judgment that they will come with that. So these issues, it's so much where the personal meets the political and the wider issues. And this was also struggle in making the movie because I thought the movie was done and I showed it to my mom who's supposed you know, supposed to be your biggest fan

and she's like, it's a disaster. And I'm like, why? And she's like, it's too cold. It was like, I made a really academic film. And she's like, you can't make an academic film about the matters of the heart, which are like, the things that you want. The interesting mom.

Right, good for you, mom. So did you have to tear it apart? Yeah, and I started with saying, okay, let me interview you, mom. And so now she's in the movie. I know, I love it. That's great, though. I love it.

Because I feel like it was personal that you really opened up. Yeah, it was a very delicate balance to try and find between like being vulnerable and being real and authentic and really like looking deep inside myself and in a way that wasn't, obviously, don't want to become narcissistic or overshare

or become... That's also a fine line too. Exactly. Especially being someone who's heavy if philosopher, say you're a philosophy major, whatever you've studied has been very like, and you've even doubted that this could be some kind of intellectual construct, but the whole thing about being in your body and being vulnerable was that new for you to really start experiencing these emotions. Or have you always been kind of privately emotionally in touch with yourself?

No, I mean, the challenge was to find the balance between the emotional and the intellectual in this, like the head and the heart. And I think that after five years of working on it, massaging it and talking to people and editing and re-editing and showing it to people. And finally, we've come up with a result that people are really responding to. And what's interesting is as much as watching the movie is the conversation that it inspires afterwards. Both like in the Q&As that we're going to be having after every screening. I love you. You're going to be at the Q&As.

Yeah, as well as a lot of the people in the movie. We're going to be doing panel discussions after every film. And if we will be going to other places around the country and we have a website, which is minaga-mish-movie.com and people can see where the screenings are gonna be and who's gonna be at the discussions. I love it.

So check that out minagmish-movie.com. This is also gonna be on our website as well, but in New York and the Bay Area, we know. But then you had some of my favorites in the film, like Esther Proud, when she wrote waiting in captivity, how many years ago, like 10 or 12 years ago, and that came out, it really was groundbreaking. She talks a lot about that we all want we want the passion and the the aliveness and

the spontaneity and all that newness and a partner, but then we also want like security dependability and all those things sort of cancel each other out when it comes to like keeping the erotic Connection alive and how do we reconcile that and she's actually as a new book coming out as well And I understand all of her work But the thing with it you read it like yeah, but now what like I understand this is a problem that we want one person to be all These things to us like our passionate lover and our best friend and like that's not really possible You know, how does that really happen? And she says in the film that it's not a problem to solve, it's a paradox that we manage.

And I thought that was a really strong point. That could be a tagline of the film. I think so too. And that's a thing like, you're not preaching. You're saying that go out and everyone should have it, but just have an open relationship or an anonymous relationship,

but know that there's options and know that there's discussions you wanna have with yourself and maybe a partner and eventually a partner about what really works for you. We do have options these days and there are people out there, like now I'm openly open, you know, after like being, you know, monogamously married for nearly 10 years and then in another long monogamous relationship after that.

And what's been most heartening is that if you're truly honest about what you want, then you will find that's a big world. So are you in an open relationship now? I'm in several. Yeah. Right.

So to be a primary partner? I don't. No. Because I came out of long. You're just taking your dating, then. Except the difference is if you have this kind of philosophy of polyamory and openness, instead of the dating being like, oh, this isn't serious, I'm just like auditioning people, and then if it doesn't work out,

you know, move on to the next person because you're not the one. I find that it's possible to have multiple loving relationships that are that build on in time. The other thing that struck me a lot is the friendships that can come out of sharing a lover with somebody. So I've had deeper male friendships now through sharing a- Like having a threesome experience or having just for the same person. Yeah, or both dating the same person

and being very open about it. And the first time I experienced that, it was amazing. I was with somebody who was married and her husband called me and said, hey, let's have lunch. And I was like, okay, and that's, and then we became like best friends. That's right, no, it's true.

It's so fun. And two people who love the same person, if you take away that element of competition or of ownership, suddenly it opens up the space that for them to find that you have something a lot in common. And it's also happened with women that I've been with who like, if I'm being super open about dating more than one person and then hanging out with them together

and then finding that they can be great friends because they have something in common now. So there is a different, like, it's a different model. Like, non-menogamy, it's not, I don't think it's for everybody because if it makes you want to vomit the idea of like your partner or somebody that you're sleeping with sleeping with somebody else, and you just like have to say, okay, I'm gonna stomach this because because they want it. That's not gonna work. But what a net with this it made you vomit when you were married. No, I've always been, I've always been kind of naturally transgressive and not naturally jealous. Right. Okay. So I've, I think I've always like been the type of person who this could work for, but only now through making the movie and through meeting all these amazing people both.

Because I interview like regular couples as well as like, you know, that Diana Adams, she's a lawyer who only like helps people in non-traditional relationships and protect their legal interests, whether they're in, you know, polyamorous or LGBTQ or anything like that. So meeting all these intelligent, interesting people who are navigating these water successfully inspired me to kind of try it this way. Kind of try it. So when you start meeting women right now and you're dating, so right away you'll say like, hey, so I'm not, I'm an open-minded ship, I'm just,

I'm not looking for commitment right now, but. No, I am looking for commitment though. A commitment of a, right. That's the difference. I'm not, I'm not looking for a monogamy right now. Right, yes. Some dating people. So, right, and they're pretty cool with that and if they're not, they're not.

And people are, it's amazing how many people, like are, are totally intrigued and say, oh, that sounds really cool. Like, I've been curious about that or I've been. Yeah, I think people are more curious and open to it. I think at least people are more open to it now. Some people are still appalled, of course. Of course, and they're always equal. It's great.

Get that out of the way right away. Exactly, no. So we're not even saying, we're just saying that, I guess I'm trying on this show and I've had, you know, a lot of guests over the years just to kind of shed light on that. There's just other options. So for you, you've never dealt with jealousy.

You said, never been an issue for you. You've had it. I would say that. I've been jealous. You've been jealous. But is that your main, like, doesn't, you can kind of kind of... I think the way you respond to jealousy is important.

Right. And like, you know, if a kid is jealous of their brother, you don't blame the brother, right? You say to the kid, like, you've got to deal with this and make them understand why they don't need to kind of nurture that feeling, right? Like, but for some reason, or somebody is jealous that a coworker got a promotion, that's something that the person who's jealous should deal with, right?

Not some person got the promotion. Right, because we're looking at someone else as a mere user, it's on to our own insecurities and... So I think that when people in open relationships experience jealousy, which happens, they should, you know, own the feeling and then decide what to do with it. And often it's just a passing feeling. It is passing and you can transcend it. That's a thing that I know people in open relationships, they practice rigorous honesty.

And I think that that's, it's not that it doesn't until happen after years, but you just kind of can move through it. Well, a lot of people are in monogamous relationships experience jealousy or they're still, they're suffering through certain things, but they never talk about it. So, I mean, I know that they don't talk about. I'm just saying there's challenges on both side but people get jealous anywhere. You can get jealous because your partner didn't come home late and, you know, in a monogamous relationship but just learning how to know that like, jealousy is just like fear or anxiety or, you know, sadness. It's all something that you can

actually, you don't have to like run from. Insecurity. I think of insecurity. know, sadness, it's also something that you can actually, you don't have to, like, run from. Insecurity. I think of insecurity. Well, yeah, well, that's, like, the root of so many things. So now, in open relationships, do you feel that the women you're with experience jealousy, and how do you handle that? Again, I think our imagination is our, it's going to be our worst enemy, and often, like, I find people are more jealous of the unknown. And the moment people meet each other and realize everyone's human and has great qualities

and also flaws, that's the most exciting thing for me as far as the difference between just being a guy who's dating, who's like, again, pretending each girl might be the next wife versus saying, we're trying a different way, which is openness and honesty, and therefore, and community in a way. You can hear community, it is. It's community.

And then the other thing is I found that people, I've been with, if it's not working out, you can easily transition into friendship. If you do it right, if you do it right, and you've been honest all along, I have had lovers who have become then found a happy monogamous relationship with somebody else and now we're all friends and they'll come visit me together. It's amazing.

And that is like, I think something that there are some, I don't want to prescribe in the movie, but I do want to, like, there's some things I learned that are for sure. Yeah, what do you want? Like, let's talk about some of the main things that you learn in the takeaways. I think, I think honesty is the number one. And that doesn't mean like telling everybody everything. Like people can sometimes. You decide.

Yeah, people can decide and they can ask, I wanna know this, I don't wanna know that. But without saying like one way is better than another, there are some ways that are better than others. Like I think if you live in a culture where women are stoned to death for looking at a man or if people aren't allowed to have sex or think about sex before they get married, to me that's just backwards. And so then you have a spectrum between that and just total loving

relationships with multiple people. And then there's a thousand places in between that are a gray area and people have to find what works for them. Again, I don't think you can shove these things down people's throats. And I don't think open relationships are for everybody. No, absolutely not. Right. And they can even be, I mean, agnus, but it could even give them an inspiration to kind of just talk about some of these things about being honest about things or maybe there's ways to, I don't know, experiment in their relationship but still keep it. Absolutely. I mean, everything like what happens. Well, there's so many things within a relationship, even if it is ostensibly monogamous, whether it's, you know, going to a party and sitting separately and having, you know, flirtatious interactions with people, but you know there's a line that you're not going to cross, and yet

you still get to bring home some of that energy. Exactly. The new relationship energy, right? Exactly. That's what I think a lot of people energy. Exactly. The new relationship energy, right? Exactly. I think a lot of people crave. Wait, we're going to take a quick break. Okay. Tao, Ruiz Blee, amazing talking to you. We're going to continue this conversation

and you're going to help me answer some emails. I'd love to. On the listeners. And thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for supporting my sponsors to help keep this show free. And I love you all. We'll be right back.

and I love you all, we'll be right back. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OK, I'm back with Tao Ru's Bully. I'm just love talking about this film. Minagamish, it's such a great term. Thank you Dan Savage. Thank you for making this film. So I have a question about sex,

because you don't talk about sex a lot in the movie, but I think there is a sort of underlying theme to all of this, that it's just a lot of us want to have different sexual experiences and sexing kind of get stale in relationships. And so what maybe was left on the cutting floor, some curious like, or what are some of the takeaways up people that you talk to or even that you've experienced in your own relationships about sex, about being maybe more expansive or about how it changes when people open it up, is it what they think? Well, I mean, there's no question that the people who are on the forefront of new relationship models

are mostly people for whom sex is important. And what happens often I found in women especially, there's been such a history of shaming women for their sexuality. It happened for hundreds of years or thousands of years, women were seen as being overly sexual and therefore irrational and evil. Mysterio, right. Right. And then they tried a different tactic.

It kind of suddenly changed the opposite. Actually women aren't supposed to be interested in sex. And if they are, they're something wrong with them, you know. But in any case, it's about shaming surrounding women's sexuality. And what Christopher Ryan talks about in sex at dawn is that this came about primarily through economic and power dynamics where men... Marriage, marriage did, yeah. No, this attitude about women's sexuality.

Because what happened is if you look at tribes and cultures that don't have private property, women are as promiscuous and as into sex as men are. Now, we know that women actually tire of monogamy more quickly than men do. It's true. Women want variety and love sex as much as men do. So what happened is that as soon as private property came about, men wanted to make sure that their property was going to pass on to their own children and therefore they had to

control the woman's sexuality, the wife's sexuality. And you found there's a great historian and lawyer in the film called Eric Berkowitz, who wrote a history of sex and the law, called sex and punishment. And he talks about how, you know, like upper class women in Italy and the 1500s, often were envious of prostitutes because they got to like experience their sexuality and be free also therefore in other ways they could like talk to men, you know, about other

subjects more openly because they were able to like open up this side of themselves like so many women's entire identity was controlled and dominated by this need to keep them in the home and not sleeping with anybody else, right? So I think that the interesting thing that's happening now is that as women attain greater and greater equality, and obviously we have a long way to go still, but as you see women able to make their own living and not have to find a man to, you know, be the only sustenance and the only way they can have a child and the only way they can have a roof over their heads, then you find women being able to express their sexual natures.

And what's happening often in marriage is that women think rather than admit they want variety, which the culture doesn't let them do, they shut down and say they're not interested in sex at all anymore. And then so many women I talked to, for example, who went into, you know, got into an open relationship after being in a closed one, said, I thought that my sexuality was dead. And I was, I would never be interested in sex, but it wasn't true.

I just wasn't interested in sex with my partner. Right. I had something different. And then as soon as they're able to have sex with somebody else, then it opens up that it's part of themselves again. And they realize how important it was, well, how much there was this thing missing in them. And then hopefully they can bring that energy home back to their relationship. Exactly.

No, that's fascinating. And I think a lot of people do that. They have gone in open relationships or they've had affairs, even which I don't recommend. But sometimes that can sort of like, you're like, oh, I am alive. I'm not like dead and don't, you know, a lot of women are sort of disconement to you, but they're disconnected from their bodies so much so that they are like, I do longer needs to, I've already had enough sex,

and then yes, they have this awakening where that's actually not true. I'm not a woman who's been married for 30 years, and she says, my husband loves me sleeping with other men because it keeps my libido alive. It's, I mean, right. I mean, yeah, again, we're not saying this is the only recipe, but it's something to,

it is something to look at and to kind of bring that, and can you, if that's not interesting to you, is there a way that you can kind of bring that novelty into your relationship and to kind of work on it and focus on it because sex is important? So that's the thing I've, you know, fighting against with people is that they're like, oh, it's really, why is it important? We're best friends, we're, you know, but we're everything, but we don't have sex, but like we need that sex, we crave that sex. And I think that for women, especially, they forget.

Like, they're like, well, I haven't had it for a while. I'm kind of shit down and I don't feel it. My body's not speaking me that way, but I think, you know, it's never gone forever. No. It's different ways, different paths. So how about you, your sex life changed since you've been in this open place.

Oh, I mean, it's... More expressed, there has always been great, but now you just can be more. No, it's a new exploration, and it allows for new experiences, and it happens to be exactly what I need right now in my life. Openness means openness to anything. I'm open to the idea of monogamy and marriage, and I think that it can be great. It could still happen for you on the road on this road. You might want it again, who knows?

But you don't have to decide. I would never want to say like I'm just only going to be open forever from now on because that would be a form of closeness in a way. Exactly, I agree with you. Yeah, I love it. I love your film. Congratulations. Thank you.

MinogamishTheMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. And then we also have a Facebook page which is minamishTheMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. MinogamishMovie.com. And then we also have a Facebook page which is MinogamishMovie and you can also find me, TaoRuspoliRUSPOLI on Instagram, Twitter, all of the things.

Okay, we'll put all that out there too. We're gonna answer some eels, but first I have questions for you, five questions. You gotta answer them, rapid fire. Rapid fire, okay. Ready. What's your biggest turn on eels, but first I have questions for you. Five questions. You got to answer them. Rapid fire. Rapid fire. Okay. Ready. What's your biggest turn on? Oh my God. I have too many. Intelligence with mixed with adventurousness. Okay. That's good. Biggest turn off. Confirmism. Sexiest part of a partner's body or anyone's body. I'd have to say the face.

Yeah. What's the one thing that you wish that you could tell? What's the one thing that you will eyes eyes? What's the one thing you wish you could tell your current oral future partner's about your body needs? What do they need to know? So rapid fires that's complex and deep questions. Say it one more time.

Okay, so what's like the one thing that you wish you could tell when you've a new partner or a partner, you're like, God, I wish they knew this about my part. I'm sure now you're very open and tell them everything. But what's like, you got to know this first. I think it can be anything. I think men are more like women than we realize and women are more like men than we realize. So women are unlike what the culture says that like, you know that women only want security and men are giving me all that. No, women want wild, untamed sexuality and newness.

And men also require time and intimacy to get to know somebody before getting naked together. And when you do get naked, time to actually connect with somebody. I think that that's- It's mostly breathing, looking to the- Yeah, and going slow and taking one's time. I love it, taking your time.

That's a good one, huge fan of that. Okay, let's move into some emails. Okay. Help the people. If you have a question you want me to answer on the show, I love that. It's really easy. You can just text your question to 797979 and you text Ask Emily one word. It's really easy or you go just text your question to 7979.7979 and you text Ask Emily one word. It's really easy or you go to sexwithemley.com and you find on my website via the Ask Emily tab

you can ask your question and as always include your gender or age where you live and how you listen to the show. Hi Emily, I love being with my boyfriend. Things are starting to get serious and we can't keep our hands off each other. The sex is mind blowing and we often go multiple rounds. He just recently opened up that he and his ex were swingers. I'm not bothered by what he was or wasn't, nor my turn off. He says he's ready to fall in love with B. Monogamous and that the swinger thing ruined his last relationship and made things messy. Will his last behavior be hard to break? Do you think I'll end up cheating if he commits to this relationship with me? I love listening to you at work if only my co-workers knew I was cracking up.

Thank you, Emily. Misty 31, Modesto, California. Wow. Kind of leopard changes spots. I want to say first, I can't tell you, I don't know your partner and it sounds like you're just getting to know your partner. And the thing is, you know, maybe he did move through non-minagamy, and now he is really ready, but I would pay attention and also find out like what appealed to him about being in a non-minagamous relationship,

because maybe those things still do appeal to him, but just because it got messy, you said here, he ended it because it got messy. Does he still crave those things? Maybe you're interested in those things, so I don't know if he's gonna end up cheating on you, but I'd say right now you need to have these real talks about it without judgment, being open

and hearing what that was like from why he craved that. Yeah, and also I think we have to remember there's a double standard. The one of the problems with open relationships these days when it's still kind of a minority, you know, slightly fringe thing is that people use any failure in that to then judge the entire institution. So as soon as an open relationship ends, everybody says, you see open relationships don't work. Oh, look, this was messy. Then they don't say that about

monogamous relationships. So that's just totally unfair. Like nobody says at the end of a monogamous relationship, see monogamous doesn't work or see close relationships don't work. So I would be wary of this kind of dismissive attitude of saying like, oh, it was messy therefore, I mean, monogamous relationships are messy too. Right. They're all messy. So I think everybody should try what they're, you know, push their limits a little bit. Obviously, you don't want to shove something down somebody's throat, but who knows?

Maybe they can find some common ground that there can be some play with other people here and there. And she might discover something that's super exciting to her. Exactly. And another thing that we discover a lot, and I've a lot of the experts I talked to in the film pointed out is that once you unleash a woman's sexuality,

it actually can become quite scary to a man. Yes. Because there's a reason that they felt the need to suppress it for so many centuries because a woman is able to go on and on and on. For example, and a man once he's done is done often, right? And as you've practiced tantrasome and so often men have to be careful what they wish for because they bring their partners to this X Club and then suddenly, like, the woman's realizing that she's having the best time and he's like, oh my god.

It's so true. No. What if I unleashed? So, I think, obviously, I advocate for greater and greater conversations and I hope that they can have that conversation and that both she and he can have an open mind about. I think it's a great time for you guys to have the really important conversations, like all couples should in the relationship. Better start now.

Another question. Hi, Emily, I've cheated on my boyfriend a handful of times, once intercourse, once oral, and a few makeup sessions. I really care for him and love him. We've been together seven years. He's just not very sexual and I am. My boyfriend brings up my cheating all the time. The last time I cheated was about two years ago,

but he chooses to still be with me. Last night, during some amazing sex, he started getting angry at me and stopped everything and fell asleep. Is this okay behavior? I know he's hurt, but I don't think it's healthy to bring it up all the time. Please help me with some advice,

Erica 24, Alberta, Canada. I mean, this is just a prime example of showing how women are as interested in variety and sex. As men are and they're just as apt to want to have other experiences. I just hope that there can be less and less shame around that. I think Esther Pearl has been talking about the positive side of when people cheat like what comes out, what are they able to bring back to the relationship. I think people should stop feeling so bad and be like have their partners hold

this against them for their entire relationship the fact that they, you know, there's a transgression now. I said their body with somebody else. Your body is your own, you know, when you get sick, you're the one who feels it, when you die, you're the one who's going to die. Like, I feel like if people have had other experiences with other people, yes, you should be honest. Yes, you should apologize if you've, and change your ways if you're lying, but you should also, it shouldn't be endless shame about the fact

that you felt like making out with somebody at one time. Right, well, the only problem, yes, and I agree with you, but the only problem here and the reason why it keeps coming up is because you guys have not done any repair around it. So when the trust is broken in a relationship, Erica, it typically it's not just going to heal on its own because you said, I'm sorry and you're like, why can't I get over? We're having great sex. And typically

this repair, I mean, listen, relationships are not about perfection. They're about repair. Like, how do you repair? How do you communicate? How do you move things forward and talk about what's going on? So of course, he's still angry at you because it was hurtful. So I feel like, you know, he probably doesn't trust you and all these things. So I, and I actually think the best way to do this is through therapy because you probably need to bring it. It's been a few years now and you've been together seven. Since the cheating happened it was two years ago. So I think that you're just not going to be able to do this on your own. So I would recommend if you want to stay with him and you love him, they should find

a counselor to go to that can't help you guys Communicate and a lot of times people recommend that you, you know, maybe who want to know more details about it That will help him. I mean, I don't know what he needs from you right now But there's gonna be some more conversations and to go back to esteroparels new book It's about not that infinitely is a great thing But there can be some benefits that come from it because if couples are able to kind of communicate around and find some kind of sweets, some kind of gems in there, that doesn't mean it has to tear the relationship apart. Hi Emily, I've listened to your podcast since January and it's been really helpful for me. I just got my first sexual relationship of eight months and my libido is shot.

Thinking of my previous girlfriend is the only way I can get turned on. I'm having difficulty moving forward because sex for her was casual and fun. I take it more seriously and wanted a lot. I now feel confused as far as what sex means to me. I was her first monogamous relationship. She had many partners before me and was typically open or poly. Do you have any relationship advice for a guy who just got out of his first sexual relationship and wants to move forward? Thank you Chris 28 California. So I get that you're connected to your first sexual experience. So I think that you just have to give yourself some time

to heal from it. That's what I'm talking about. Time heals all wounds. It really does. And so I think maybe you're being really hard on yourself. It's okay to still want to like, just to think about your accident, get turned on. People did all the time.

Absolutely. I think this guy just needs time, needs new experiences. Of course, one of the most interesting things I find about being with more than one partner or having a new relationship is the different parts of you that are exposed when you're with different people. Yeah. Two people. One person can feel like they're very dominant in one relationship and then suddenly they're very submissive in another. And then you know, you can be more loving and affectionate sometimes and more brutal in others, let's say.

And that's the beauty of the fact that we now live a life that has more distinct chapters, let's say. One of the other things in the film is we call a marriage failed when it's like ends after 10 years. And that's just a terrible way to see it like If you don't list forever it's a failure. Yeah, it's not just the way you think about a relationship Theoretically it has real world consequences, which is then how do you relate to the person after you've split up?

Can you still be friends? Can you still acknowledge that you've had this amazing time together? Can you still be friends with each other's families and friends and people that have to, otherwise you have to pick sides and think of it as this horrible ending? So I think that being able to acknowledge what you learned from this last relationship, incorporate that into who you are now going forward and then allow yourself to become a new person or the next chapter of you in your next relationship.

And realize that that's gonna happen. It's gonna happen multiple times. That's a great point to make that when you're going through a breakup and you're ending your relationship, that is the best work you can do some times is right after when you're alone for a while. No matter how long it takes you, Chris, put to spend that time figuring out like,

what worked for me, what didn't work for me, what was my part in the relationship, what am I looking more for now in my next relationship? And so just go easy on yourself, take your time, you know, to press yourself to grow out there and start dating right now, but you're right where you need to be Chris. Thank you for your email and listening to the show. Thank you everybody and thank you, Tile, for being here. Thank you so much. This was so fun. So check out his movie MinogamyjMovie.com. I think it's really going to inspire you.

It's very thought-provoking and very well done. Congratulations. Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you to my incredible team, Ken, Jamie, intern Shannon, producer, log, and Michael. Thanks everyone for listening. Was it good for you? Email me feedback at sexwithamely.com.

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