Sex With Emily - Best of: Gender-Chill with Jacob Tobia

Episode Date: June 20, 2020

In honor of Pride month, we are throwing it back to last year’s Pride podcast about gender. Dr. Emily is joined by writer, producer and author Jacob Tobia to talk about their book Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story.They clarify the differences between gender, sex, and orientation and what it means to be gender neutral. Plus, the journey we go through to find our identity – because it’s not always easy. Tobia talks about the inspiration to live as our truest selves and feel sexy & confident – no matter what turns you on!For more information about Jacob Tobia, visit: https://jacobtobia.com/For even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by writer, producer, and author Jacob Tobiah to talk about their book, Sissy, a coming-of-gender story. Topics include gender, sex, and orientation. If you're confused or want clarification, we bring it down for you on what it means to be gender neutral. What does it mean to be gender, chill? I love this. If you don't have to be so uptight about it, let's just try it all understand each other. We also talk about the journey we go through to find our identities because hey, it's not always easy. And inspiration to live our lives and feel sexy and confident no matter what turns you

on. All this and more, thanks for listening. Into his eyes, then the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mark our sacred institutions, bitrubize, they call them and abide on days. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between for more information. Check out sexwithemlead.com. You're going to love our site if you haven't been there yet.

You can just Google things. All the questions you send me, you email me. There's a lot of answers on our site with incredible blogs to help you have a better life. Find me in all social media. It's at sex with Emily across the board. Are you not following us? I don't understand.

Could you send questions everywhere, everywhere. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. All right, guys, I hope you enjoy this interview with Jacob Tobiah. Jacob Tobiah. Welcome back to the show. I'm so glad to be back. I'm so you have had quite a journey since we've seen you last. It's been a minute, yeah. I know, I keep looking up and you're like everywhere and you just sort of book because we are going to talk about Jacob's book, Sissy, a coming-of-gender story. And I just want to congratulate you on all of your success. We were just talking about seeing you in Trevor Noah, which was amazing

and all the places you've been telling your story. Just to bring people up to speed. Like I know your whole story, you first thought that you were gay. And there were no other terms. There were no other terms until very, very recently. And so now how would you identify? How do you identify now? Well, so the way I talk about identity is that a lot of times people are like, oh, identity is this one word that you have to pick. You know, like it's like the one word you have to pick and then stick to it. And I think that's a really boring way to lead our lives and also pretty limiting.

So I prefer to think about identity as like a layer cake and you can never get too tall. You know what I mean? Your cake just becomes more opulent the more layers you add to it. And like, you know, you have to add some support rods or whatever and like have better support structures. If you want to add more layers, I guess I've been watching too much nailed it on Netflix. So now I'm thinking all about like, no, put the rods in the cake. Like when I make a layer cake with an analogy, I hear Nicole Byer yelling at me. But anyway, no, it's like, you know, so for me, the way I think about it is that I've just been building layers on my identities.

So in high school, you know, when I, when I, you know, even earlier, like even earlier than high school, when I started going through puberty, my gender was always different, but then, you know, I feel like it got shut down pretty early, right? Like, gender not conforming children often

are kind of taught what's what by the time you're like five, you know? And you were five, you were like, yeah. By the time I was four or five, I knew that for whatever reason, the way I wanted to express myself was not okay, right, that I needed to figure out what it meant to be a boy in this world, that I had to learn to sort of perform that in color inside those lines, if I wanted to have any friends or any like, you know, and survive at school and

like have any affirmation from really anybody. And so, you know, my, my gender became an afterthought. And then puberty hit and my sexuality was just not an afterthought at all. And so for a long time, gay was the word that I used to describe myself because it was kind of the most pressing need. It was the most urgent one because I'm in the middle of puberty. Yeah, and I was just like, oh my god, my sexual difference. It's definitely something I'm feeling.

In my gender difference, I've kind of repressed so deeply that I don't even realize it. And then through exploring my identity in the gay community, I realized like, oh, there's this thing called trans. Oh, there's this thing, there's gender nonconforming people. Oh, there are gender queer and nonbinary people. Oh my God, there's all of these words. And this whole playing field is so much wider

than I thought it was. And so now, I understand myself, not as like a man or as a woman, I just wanna live my life in a way that is sort of between and outside of those labels. That makes sense. You know, and I still have a male body, right? Like I'm not denying the fact, like my physiology,

that's my body, but I don't think that our bodies should ever be our male body, right? Like I'm not denying the fact that my physiology, that's my body, but I don't think that our bodies should ever be our destinies, right? Like I don't think that you should look at any one person's body and say, because of your body, I am entitled to coerce you to be a certain way, right? Like, like- It's such a crazy new way of thinking though

that people just, because even just talking about, like sexuality, because you're talking, not just about gender, but and your sexual orientation. Yeah. And even that's confusing to people. It's like all of it. And I love what you're saying, because why do we have to put people in this? Like, two does seem very limiting. I understand that. Everyone's been limited by this way of thinking, right? I mean, if you think about the last century of feminist struggle, it's been about creating space for women to inhabit a broader range of gender expression. Like, one moment that people forget was like a historical moment is that there was actually

a first time in history when a woman wore pants in a major motion picture. Like that was a historical achievement. Right. It was Catherine Hepburn, I cannot remember the year, but like she was the first woman to wear pants in a major motion picture and People sort of take for granted all of the work that's been done around Expanding the possibilities of women's gender expression over the last century But it's like no no no that wasn't an accident That was based on like on like blood sweat and tears of activists who gave up tons and sacrificed a lot and and were the subject of

Scorn and derision and hateful remarks and glares and all of that kind of stuff. And now, I think what I'm trying to do, and what I think we as a culture are trying to do, is to think about, okay, now we need to, we need to look at the other side of the coin on this binary way of thinking about things, and think about like, what does it mean to give people,

male assigned people and people who are raised as boys greater access to expression? What does it mean to give people just the ability to kind of play around more and not have such huge consequences for doing something as trivial as wearing lipstick? Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about your style then,

because you look fabulous. How do you, and have you always, how what is your style? How would you even describe it? Like, you owe to your stylist, you've always loved dressing up. Like, have you always favored women's clothing? Well, I feel like I've always,

it's funny, because I wouldn't say that I favor women's clothing. So much as I say that I favor expressive clothing. Right, because you are not, yes, see? And in our culture, expressive clothing most often happens to be made for women. Although every now and then I find a men's piece that I'm like, ooh, you know, every now and then I like being a little more understated or whatever. Right.

And there are moments where like where men's fashion works for me. But most of the time I end up wearing, um, wearing sort of a blend of the two. Right? Like for example, I like men's pants because they're, they structured a little bit bit better for me. Like, I feel like I like, I don't mind wearing men's pants, like wearing men's jeans right now. And I'm definitely wearing men's cowboy boots, but I feel like cowboy boots are kind of the great gender-neutral shoe. They are, you know, like everyone looks fucking good in a pair of cowboy boots. Yes, absolutely. Like everyone looks fucking sexy, you know, I'm like, anytime someone's wearing cowboy boots,

I'm just like, I'm going to score two in pants, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then I'm wearing this little, like, actually, I got this really recently, it's a, it's a, how to describe it's a blazer, and then it's embroidered with these little rainbow elephants that are kind of marching around the perimeter of it. It's like vintage or is it, it looks like stuff? In giant grass that's glitter embroidered.

And so I got this in the Goodwill in Carrie North Carolina because I was home visiting my family like a week ago. The best Goodwill girl I saw. Yeah, yes. But also this one, Goodwill isn't even that good. Like, you know, on the scale of Goodwill,

this one's pretty mediocre, but it's one that's closest to my house. And my friend was helping her mom clean out her house. So like, we went there to like drop off stuff and I was like, let's just take a quick browse. And I saw just like the little tendril of grass and one elephant on the sleeve poking out of the rack and I was like let's just take a quick browse and I saw just like the little Tindall of grass and one elephant on the sleeve poking out of the rack and I was like that's what I'm buying That's it done and done with the with the pin the one you put that on

Yeah, so that's so my stylist is my is good will Okay, and And that's also because I feel like spiritually I just love wearing vent like secondhand stuff Especially stuff like at Goodwill or stuff that like really like you know, at like proper thrift stores, because it feels like it's really been kind of abandoned spiritually.

You know, like I don't know how someone let themselves part with like this pink little elephant. Could it have been? Yeah, I know, I know, it's the, I'm like her name's Patricia, she has feeling. Right, exactly. You know, like how, like how are you just gonna let this jacket go?

Like it's lined in purple. I know, how? Like it's so good. That's fucking it fits it's amazing. Yeah and so I feel like I'm rehoming you know clothes. It's working it's totally working. So okay so this is your style when you go out there in the world like how do you feel like you are so brave Jacob like I just look at all the things you're doing and they're reading your book like all your stories are just it was so it's so real and you're so vulnerable and I love like all your messaging that okay here's why your kids are some articles you've written kids your kids are going to stare at me here's what it means or everyone does they just don't get it it's confusing is it trans who do you sleep with what you all about and I just want to congratulate you

and all that braveness that you that you just keep how do you keep going with all this so what do you think that comes from well mean, a lot of it is the fact that I'm really stubborn. Okay. That's been really helpful in my life. Some of it is the fact that I'm a Leo because I'm just really showy by nature. You know, I'm just showy little lion prancing around.

And, you know, and the bigger thing is that I learned bravery through community. I didn't learn to be, that's the thing I hate most about when we tout kind of like queer trans achievements. So often we tout them as if people who are like the first gay whatever, the first trans whatever, accomplish that because of their singular bravery. And bravery never happens in a vacuum.

So true. You only learn to be brave because someone else helped you figure out what being brave meant. And I don't like it as a culture, we often erase the fact that bravery is a collective process, not an individual one. It's not like we're all like some cowboy in a western movie going out into the middle of the town challenging someone to shoot off. Even that dude had people supporting him.

And people teaching him to be brave and to be able to teach him what it meant. And so I feel like where I've got my bravery from was over a really long, like a decade-long process of being surrounded by other queer and trans people who were braver than I was. And eventually, you just kind of have this osmosis. You just kind of start to take on a little bit of their bravery and you start

to reinforce each other's bravery. And all of a sudden, you go from feeling like you're super alone and have no idea how to do this to feeling like, if something happens, I have an entire community of people that have my back. You really do. Let's talk about this because you had to come out for gender and sexual orientation. So do you feel like you're going to have to stop and you have to explain? And what's happening with right now with all the attention's getting? Because I'm telling you,

like I was in New York, for example, I had meetings with some executives that all had kids like in their 20s right now, like yeah, I love having meetings with exactly. Do you do that? Like I, they were just happened to be those, except those people and they were like, well, you know what you should do, Emily? Like everything's about sex now. Like I made kids in college were like 20, 18, 20, and they're like, you know, everything's about like this, you know, gender, binary, now, and sexual orientation. And they're all like, they all don't know what they are. And they all think that they're bisexual, but maybe they're gay. And it's just, you should just talk about that. Everyone is bisexual. Yeah, exactly. Like you're bisexual as well. Just what do that

happen? Right. Mr. Executive. Oh my God. Like every exact you're meeting with this, like, what I'm saying, like, time my 20 year old is bisexual. And like, he really doesn't know what to do about it. And you're like, okay every exact you're meeting with is like what I'm saying like time my 20 year old is bisexual And like he really doesn't know what to do about it And you're like okay, so you're bisexual you don't know what to do about it. That's what I'm getting from the conversation Like there's two people it was two and a row It was a woman whose kids were also in their 20s and she's like it's like this is what you need to tackle So so what do you see happening right now like where do you like where you're at and then like what what do we hope?

To see from everything that you're doing like what do you like where you're at and then like what do we hope to see from everything that you're doing? Like what do you think is happening? Do you think that this is kind of you're paving the way? I know a lot of people pay with the way for you, but like what is happening with sex? Like what do you think that we have to understand now a sexual orientation? My big goal right now is I want to create a world where like buying pansexual folks have all the freedom that they deserve and need to express everything that they desire, right? And I say I could pretend that I do that I believe that, like, from a place of like, magnanimity or generosity, but it's from a place of profound and deep

selfishness. Because if this bitch is ever going to get laid, like, bi- and pansexual people need to be liberated, like, way more. You know, and pansexual people need to be liberated like way more. You know, like, I need people to be able to acknowledge that they're attracted to people along the trans spectrum, especially like men or masculine of center folks. If you look at the world of porn, right, it's very clear that like trans people are deeply attractive to so many people out there.

But then if you look at our culture, like where are the like, you know, cis men dating trans women on television. But they're not, but they're doing it, right? What do you find? I mean, it's happening all the time, but that hasn't been that person yet. There hasn't been the cis gender man

who's out there saying, yeah, this is what I'm attracted to. Right, and this is what turns me on. Yeah, and like I need people to be able to name that like when I walk by in high heels and a cute little skirt and my toned as fuck legs that are hairy as hell, there's a lot of people who are like, I need them to acknowledge that. I don't get why people are so ashamed to acknowledge their desire for a gender nonconforming people. We're sexy, we're fun, we're cute.

Yeah, so fun, you're so fun. Like, I want to be best friend. I felt this last time like, we should hang out. Right, which is fun. We really should. I know we should. Like, I feel that too. We're practically neighbors.

We just realize I feel like- I'm not doing anything this summer. Really? Nothing? I mean, I- I have like, it's like one of those things where I'm like pitching. I'm like pitching this big project at the end of June. And then after that, I might be doing a lot of work,

but I also might be doing literally nothing. Are you dating? What are you doing? Like, what's your life like now since the book came out? Well, I mean, I might be doing a lot of work, but I also might be doing literally nothing. Are you dating? What are you doing? What's your life like now since the book came out? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm dating a ton, but I am very much on the market and trying to be, I'm trying to find ways to like, I'm working on my own desire too,

because I feel like I, you know, I'm really dissatisfied with how I was raised, like in terms of the cultural cues I was given around what is attractive and what is desirable. And I hate, like, I was raised, like in terms of the cultural cues I was given around what is attractive and what is desirable. And I hate like, I hate like the way that my erotic conditioning was like controlled by all of these like shitty Disney executives like out in LA, you know what I mean? No, it's true, like the story about the prints

and the prints and coming to see it. It was this, it's right. Right, and like, and like, I'm just sort of like, what, who decided that, oh, what we're gonna do is we're gonna make every middle school in the country fetishize Zach Efron. Right. Who made that decision? I don't even find him cute.

No, because I'm like, I think he's cute, but I'm like, I would like to think that more than just that is cute. And I have this whole, I feel like I have this, there's, you know, there's, like, the ability, you can expand what your brain thinks about, but then getting into your subconscious of your desires takes more measure to work. It does.

It's like erotic, that's the kind of somatic therapy I've done this somatic, and it's talk about everyone has an erotic blueprint. We all have an erotic map, and there's a primary erotic thought that kind of turns us on. We don't have to go finding it, but what is that, and then you kind of expand that, start to think about your fantasies, and you start to think about, I kind of do that work too, what of turns us on. We don't have to go finding it, but what is that? And then you kind of expand that. I'm sure to think about your fantasies and you start to think about, I kind of do that work too, what really turns me on. And is it just a three,

because most people are like limited with like three sums. Right. Or three sums. What's the other way? What is that? What are other things that DCs will turn on by? It's shit, it's the top fantasy. It's like three sums, group sex.

Okay, that's kind of the same. They dominate some shit. Yeah, like SNM. SN like three sums, groups, sex. Okay, that's kind of the same. They dominate, it's a mission. Yeah, like SNM. SNM? Yeah, like a two. Yeah. But how do you figure out what really was really the second choice?

Right, and I think what I'm focused on right now, like my dream partner. Tell me, I want to know. And I found a few people who are kind of like this, but like my dream partner is also fam. Like, I want to date a fam, you know what what I mean? Like I want to be with like another, like I, and you know, I'm open to other possibilities, right? Like I'd be down to date, like I'd be down to date, like trans dudes, I'd be down to date, like maybe a bunch, like a hot, bunch lady I could get

I could get down with. I would need her to approach me, you know what I mean? Because I'm like, sort of, I'm not, I'm not 100% sure what I do with that. And I feel like it's a weird joke. How have you been with? I haven't yet, but it's on my goal list. Never been with. It's on my, I want to figure it out. Right, a Volvo interface. No, but I feel like there's a way that I could get into that.

But I would need someone with just a blistering amount of confidence and a deep confidence of how much they wanted me, and also an acknowledgement that part of that sometimes radical sex can look like helping people learn what they're into. Right. It's true. It is true.

You need someone who maybe wants to be a teacher, maybe they're learning. Yes. I need someone who like erotically wants to be a teacher. Right. Like who's like, I'm going to teach you and I'm going to get turned on by the fact that like you might fail. Yeah. And then I get to give you an F and then we'll try again. Exactly.

There are people like that. Yeah. I love it. You're kind of on your erotic journey because in a way, a lot of this has been heady for you, I would think. Totally. And it's kind of not about sex. Right. I would think that you're not sexual,

but I would feel like this is just, because I get that too. I've been so caught up my business lately that I'm like sort of on this like taking a break lately from dating, I kind of call it like a mandatoryum. More to buy. Right, so I'm like literally having a show, not having sex, but like six months, five months. If I haven't even, haven't said that out loud yet. But it's true, I'm call it like a mandatoryum. More to buy. Right, so I'm literally having a show, not having sex, but like six months, five months.

So if I haven't even, I haven't even said that out loud yet. But it's true, I'm doing it. Oh yeah, I'm on even longer than that. So that's a good word. It's okay, there you go. You're a good company. Yeah, but it's like, but I get it. So then getting into your body,

it feels good because I feel like, yeah, it's something to look at. And also, where you have to present, people probably don't know what, because okay, so saying trans, because transgender, how do you explain like you're not having any surgery, you're not changing, you love your male body?

In terms of like trans folks, I think that there's, that one of the big problems we have in our culture is that everything about sexuality is coated with gender. Right. Almost everything in terms of how we understand what it means to fuck people, what it means to be intimate, what it means to have relationships. is coded with gender. Almost everything in terms of how we understand what it means to fuck people,

what it means to be intimate, what it means to have relationships. The way we're taught about those things from the earliest age, the way we're conditioned, is that you have to fit into one of these two categories in order to make sense. And I'm kind of like,

what would it mean for us to, like, what would it mean for all of us to find different ways of making sense to one another? Right. Like, how would that look? Like, tell me your future, your dream future. I mean, like, my dream future, I think, is that, like, I think I want to be like married to a drag queen.

Okay. You know, like, I want to find like, my, like, femme top, dom, like, you know, husband, like, and or partner. Yeah. Just picturing this view. Let me get that. Yeah, I think, yeah, for now at least, we now at least. Okay, I take it so young too. At the current moment.

You're such at your late 20s, right? 20s. Yeah, I'm like, I'm still a little baby and I'm trying to figure this out. You're so much like, yeah, you really, I mean, I'm just so impressed with all the way. I don't wanna clite you over, but you've done so much work on yourself.

Well, it's funny too, because it's like, I feel like I've done so much work on my gender where it's like about me and the work I can do myself, but the erotic work like an sexual liberation, you have to work with other, I mean, and the work I can do myself, but the erotic work and sexual liberation, you have to work with other, I feel like I've liberated myself sexually pretty well on my own. And also with some of your help, Emily,

because of the last time I came in for the podcast, the amount of toys I left with, holy shit. Oh my God, did you get, what did I give you? Because we've got more. Oh, I had never had a flashlight before, and I was like, wow, this is like beautiful and it's like one of those crystal ones. Like the clear ones is really cute.

Okay. I feel, I got, what did I get? There's like some really cute butt plugs, some really cute. Yeah. Like a really nice, like a really nice primo dildo. There's a lot of really good shit. Okay, good. Like gallons of lube, not gallons, but like a bunch of.

No, no, I'm sure it could have been a gallon. Like not a gallon, but like a bunch. No, right. Like multiple containers. I just feel like it was, it was really great for my, it been a gallon. Not a gallon, but like a bunch. Like multiple containers. I just feel like it was really great for my, it was a really great sort of like, you know, sometimes you're writing the book and you can just take a masturbation break with that kind of thing.

You just need ways to like, you know, reduce the tension. Yeah, totally. That's what it is. Oh, I love it. But yeah, you know, I feel like the thing that's more difficult is that doing kind of sexual liberation work, sometimes it, oftentimes it requires somebody else to explore with.

You can't just explore with yourself. And I mean, you can, but like there's parts you can't just explore with yourself. And so it's finding, figuring out how to find people and what kind of exploration I want and how to communicate that to other people. Like that's a whole other journey that I'm just beginning.

Exactly. And then I think that part of that journey is being honest and saying like, I'm exploring, are you ready to play? And I think that part of that journey is being honest and saying, like, I'm exploring. Are you ready to play? And I think people are more open to that now. Definitely are more open to exploring and playing with you. Okay.

So tell me what it was like to be able to, because since I saw it, I guess you were working on the book and what was it like to write your whole story? I can only imagine really cathartic and that how much you learned just the process of writing it. Yeah. I mean, I say this and I don't say it lightly, that writing this book was actually the most healing thing I think I've ever done.

Because I mean, if you think about it, it's in some ways it's the best therapy, right? Because how often so much of therapeutic practice in my life has been taking a story that you've told yourself about something that happened in your life, and then finding story that you've told yourself about something that happened in your life, and then finding a way to retell it with yourself as the protagonist. Yes. You know?

And like how to tell it in a way that is more empathetic towards you and what you are going through and where you're not blaming yourself so much for everything that's going on and where you're giving yourself freedom to like be imperfect in certain moments and be confused in other moments. And I feel like doing that for 300, 400 pages, it changes you and it changes your heart in ways that are permanent and are beautiful. Yeah. And it was also a way to kind of take, it was a way to synthesize everything

Because I knew what was true about my gender, but then taking sort of the the arc of it and putting it all together And fearing out how the different parts of my life and different moments of my life all strung to like you know went together It was it was like the most interesting beautiful jigsaw puzzle And then you know, I put it together and finally, I was like, oh, I can see what this image has been the whole time. Yeah, I told you, have you been in therapy too in this process? Oh, totally.

So did it. And before this process. And the trauma, right. So I was gonna see if you need to be in therapy. Like, just go get therapy. Like, stop listening and go get therapy. I agree. I see it every day.

And then come listen again when you're pat, like, exactly, on your ride to and from. Right. I say all the time. Yeah. And then come listen again when you're pat like, after everything, on your ride to and from. Right. I say all the time. Yeah. And then I get some incorrect, when there's someone missing in, and then I found me like,

not everybody, what you could say is most people can benefit from therapy. I was like, no, literally, I think everyone needs that. No, literally every person, like, who can't? Yeah, because like the idea of like, no, I'm like, because I feel like if you're saying, I don't need therapy, what you're saying is my emotional architecture is perfect.

And I'm like, okay, you need to get off that high horse because like the moment, especially if you're saying, I don't need therapy, what you're saying is my emotional architecture is perfect. And I'm like, okay, you need to get off that high horse because the moment, especially if you think that you don't need therapy, you're deeply in need of therapy. Right, exactly, thank you. If people are like, well, I could probably benefit from therapy, but I'm really busy, and I'm not quite sure if my need is acute enough at this present moment, though I bet I could stand

to really gain something from like a once a month kind of situation. Then I'd be like, okay, maybe you can get out of being in therapy for a few months and I won't yell at you. You know? As long as you're considering it, it takes a while, but I think you just gotta get in there. For me starting therapy in my mid-20s,

every single week for like, I don't know forever, 20 something here still, but I went off it. I went off therapy for six years, I'm back and it's like doing the work, trauma work, because I was thinking going back to your childhood stuff, like when you were saying that everyone has stories. We all have stories that we tell ourselves, but then once we tease it apart,

you realize that there was probably, you were blaming yourself, victim, you know, and then you realize that it was the society. Like it wasn't just you, or your family, and things that were happening, so I think that could just be very powerful. Well, the other thing that was really incredible about it is that in the process of writing about it,

and writing about it so publicly, it forces you to find empathy for even the people who hurt you. And it forces you to understand where they were coming from too and to extend the benefit of the doubt to everybody. I mean, not that, I think there are certain kinds of trauma and certain kinds of abuse where you don't owe it to yourself to do that, or at least doing that is something you should wait on exploring, you know, but in my situation, it had been a few years between anything that happened in the book and where I was in the present. And taking the time to really sympathize

where I was in the present. And taking the time to really sympathize with people who were not good to me and understand where they were coming from in that was, was like, I mean, I feel like it shifted my entire consciousness. And the thing that was really incredible is that it's actually changed my relationship, my present day relationships with a lot of people. Yeah, I'm sure it has, right?

Because the way you're changing your behavior down, because you would have to understand and you're not coming in with such animosity, intention with them. But even like, even like the act of reading the book and then watching how it was received in public and then hearing feedback from other people has like legitimately changed my relationship with my dad.

Like in such a beautiful way. That is amazing. So tell me more about that. Like I was home last week actually, and he, A, he's like playing with pronouns in a very incorrect way, but he's like playing with them for the first time. So Tommy, let's talk about the pronouns are stressful. I'm like, oh my god, am I gonna say he and they,

like let's talk about that too. Yeah, he's just sort of like, he was just sort of like, sleepily, like we were like watching some like design show on Netflix and he was just like, so yeah, if I say, you like, sleepily, we were watching some design show on Netflix. And he was just like, so yeah, if I say, they go to the grocery store, I was like, no, you just conjugate it normally, they go to the grocery store. And I just used a little sample sentence and then that was our little moment, but it was the first time he brought it up of his own volition.

So what are these pronoun things? How do they work? That is so, what a moment. That is a really powerful moment. And it's not because like, it's not because the grammar is hard. There's a way to tie it in your lipstick in the bathroom. But then like now, it's like, how do I do the day?

Well, and the bigger thing that he told me is he was, he was, like, a few of his colleagues have read the book now. And, and he was telling me that they sort of, he was like, yeah, some of them have been telling me, like, oh, I'm kind of a hero of this thing. So like, my dad actually now has a heroic narrative of pride around, yeah, around coming to terms with like having a gender nonconforming child and learning to love and celebrate that child. And like, he's able to feel a sense of heroism in his own journey. And I don't think we would have gotten there if I didn't write this.

Wow, that is, that is, that makes so much sense and that's really beautiful because it's probably various confusing for him and then for his friends to say, we all want to be recognized. Your parents, I have to spend time with them. Right. And for his friends to say, like, dude, you did a session incredible job. He's called for you. Right. Like, you're so incredible in the way that you've come to understand and embrace your kid is so cool. You know, like, he's getting that from the guy. I did not. Okay, I guess I am. guess I'm gonna get these gender pronouns right there. Right, I got it, I got it. Right.

And he's finally giving himself the pat on the back if he's deserved a long time. Yeah, because of the bottom line of therapy too, yes, you're gonna understand that people have hurt you, your parents, your relatives, but they did the best they could with the tools that they were given. And so, you know, we probably felt some of that

that there was some animosity, but now it's, you're like I said, you're still in your 20s, you have a whole future life with him now that could be really beautiful. And it already is really beautiful. We have such a good relationship and it's gotten way stronger through the process of writing this book and bringing it to everybody. All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break and we come back more Jacob Tobiah. Okay, let's talk about the gender. Like, why people, it still is can be confusing because you came out the gender and sexual

orientation is two things you've had to do. So let's talk about the pronouns. So you don't go by he. Yeah, I go by they. And you know, it's like, there's sort of, you know, there's like a really complicated linguistic way to talk about it, and that way it makes me bored and makes me want to listen. Okay, good.

So we're not gonna do that. And love that you make this all fun and never boring in this show. I don't have time, I don't have time for like, here's the thing, I have so much anxiety in my life. Like the last thing I need is more anxiety in my life. Right, but this is anxiety, to be like, I am not a he or she.

Right, but the number one rule for other people in my life is like, actually, like the number one rule to be like, I am not a he or she. Right, but the number one rule for other people in my life is like, actually, like, the number one rule is just like, don't be too anxious about the pronouns. Like just don't be too anxious. It's okay if you mess up, it's okay if you're, it's okay if you get it right sometimes and then three weeks later you fuck it up again and then two weeks later you get it right and then, you know, five months later you fuck up again. Like whatever, as long as you're trying, it's totally fine.

But the main thing is just, don't be anxious about it. There's nothing to be anxious about. We're all trying, we are trying to honor people with imperfect tools. Language is an imperfect tool, and what we're trying to do and what Trans and Genre are not conforming folks want is we want a slightly more accurate way to represent ourselves and be understood in the world.

And the truth is, when people are like, oh, Jacob, he goes to blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yes, it's only a word, totally, but it carries with it all of these expectations that have made my life really difficult and have limited my ability to feel happy in this world. And when people say Jacob, Jacob got their jacket at the Goodwill

and they had a really interesting conversation with the lady at the register about it. Like even just that small thing, having the ambiguity there, it's like going from being wrongfully categorized to just not being categorized, right? It's like someone telling, I feel like I sent my whole life being like,

hey, I think I'm yellow and everyone's like, no, you're blue. And you're like, I think I'm yellow. And then people are just like, no, he, I feel like I sent my whole life being like, hey, I think I'm yellow and everyone's like, no, you're blue. And you're like, I think I'm yellow. And then they're like, and then people are just like, no, he, you're blue. And then you're like, but I'm not, that's not right. And it just feels like getting closer to accuracy and finding a way to really respect folks.

Because the other thing too is like, here's the other thing I have a lot of trouble with. Let me just go in, I don't want to go in. I don't want to go in. I don't want to go in. No, you're never rude, go, go in. No, you never ruled. Go. Or people whose gender experience has been normal.

But I remember in fucking elementary school, how many people, how many just straight dudes would have a nickname that they insisted on being called by the teacher? You know what I mean? There would be Edward Bartholomew. And he'd be like, I go by Eddie. And then the teacher would be like, Edward,

and then he'd be like, no, Eddie. and then he'd be like, no, Eddie. And then teacher would be like, sorry, Eddie. And then they would move on with the class. And it would be like, and then Eddie would be called Eddie for the rest of the time. And then when trans people try to give ourselves a different name, everyone freaks the fuck out. And I'm like, maybe we should just call it a nickname

and then everyone would be like, oh, okay. Like Jacob, and I'm like, oh, my nickname, Sarah. And then the teacher was like, oh, okay, Sarah. Jacob, and I'd be like, oh, my nickname, Sarah. And then teachers would be like, oh, okay, Sarah, you know, and then like, you'd be fine. Exactly, we make it so stressful. Right, because people act like, oh my God, these needy trans people asking to be called by the name that they prefer.

And I'm like, you wanna know, like, if you think that a trans person is needy for that, like try talking to a kid whose name is Tyler who likes being called Ty. Right, exactly. You know what I mean? Like, he's gonna fucking freak out in fifth grade and he's gonna have a whole fit about it. And you're gonna get a call from his mom being like he is called Ty.

Ty is the name he uses. He is very upset right now. Can you please call him Ty? And the teacher will have to get in line. No, I love it. This is just a fucking good way to explain it. Because what? It's just simple, easy shit.

It's not that complicated. It's not that heavy people. No, it's not. It can be heavy if you want to make it. Because even talking to me, I don't want to say heavy people. I mean, they come here and they're like, Oh, God, are we going to get like, he's gender to they are gender to their gender to their gender to tell yeah, and like, it's okay. Right. It's kind of fun because for me, because it's like, Queer is the reason. It like, Queer's the whole thing because it's like, Oh, God, like, which is so imperfect. How do we possibly

capture the dynamic, like, the dynamism of gender in like these stupid little words? So you feel that there are other people that you meet, they're like, oh, I don't do that. Like they're also gender non-conforming, but they've decided not to use they. Yeah, there are some people I know who are gender non-conforming who are like, no, I still use he. And that's fine too. Well, that's what we, how do we know? We just ask, how do you identify?

They're just, yeah, I'm going to do it. How do you identify what you're pronoun? Hey, you just got to be like, what's your pronoun? What do you use? What's your pronoun? That could be a fun game too. Yeah, I don't know. I just thought it was like some kind of,

I don't know, what's your pronoun? Yeah, like anytime I meet somebody and I'm not sure, I'll just be like, oh, hey, like, hey, I'm a Lee. She's a dick. And then I'll be like, oh yeah, Emily was saying that she, oh wait, Emily, what pronoun do you use? Wait, is that what you do? Which one do you use?

Oh, she. Okay, cool. No, Emily was saying that she has like a bunch of lube in the closet that I can look at later. I'm so excited to like check it out. Exactly. And she's check with everyone. And almost, you do that with the eyes.

But you see how easy that was. It was so easy. Everyone's acting like we're asked. It's like, everyone asks like, I'm so excited to like check it out. Exactly, and check with everyone. And almost, you do that with your eyes. But you see how easy that was? It was so easy. It was so fucking easy. Everyone's acting like we're asked, it's like everyone acts like I'm asking them to like, you know, like fill the perfect jenga tower and like whatever. And I'm like, it is not that fucking complicated. Do not like, do not be so dramatic about it.

Like, I will ask you things that are really dramatic and are really demanding. That is not one of them, okay? Right, exactly. You're right, I love the way it makes so much more sense that way. Right. So what else do you have been like, what I think about the kids in school,

like younger kids now, because it's so much more, what are the percentage of kids you think who think they are, who are trans or are born in the wrong body? Well, so. Or however they identify. Yeah, I mean, the thing is,

I think there are more people who are a lot, like everyone is a long gender spectrum, right? And that's something I'm excited about in terms of like the sort of Next steps of this movement and sort of where it's going is that it's about everyone kind of learning to hold that Trans like I'd being that identifying is trans is it's it's both an identity But it can also be a type of experience, right? The being gender nonconforming is like, you can say, I am gender nonconforming.

I identify as gender nonconforming. But also everyone in, as an adjective, can experience gender nonconforming moments. Right? Everyone has had it times when they felt gender nonconforming, even if they don't identify that way full time. Right. And so it's like, I feel like I live,

like we're not the energy though. Like I feel like energy is so much more important than, like I think I most, I'm a lot of times leaving my masculine, energy and not my feminine as much as I think. That's why I think you're so hot. Right. Right. Like I think, but then, right. Right. Uh-huh.

Yes. See? I'm leading with that. So maybe I don't even, yeah, who knows, maybe I'm with the wrong people who I'm so open right now, but I'm trying to be more of my feminine because I like to be more submissive too. So, you know, but in my life, I feel like. I mean, it's energy. Right, I feel like I'm like, I feel like I'm, you know,

in my, like I feel like I'm pretty power-budget, like in a lot of scenarios. Yeah. And, you know, there are other ones where you don't have to do that. Exactly. But yeah, I guess it's just about everyone being able to say, when are the times where my gender has felt like a box in which I did not fit?

Because everyone has had those moments. Oh, yeah, for sure being a, I mean, yes. They're like, when have you felt that way? I felt so limited. And now that's like the homey-two thing, like I feel like I didn't even know that when people would mostly work with men in this industry like in entertainment. I used to work in politics. It was all men

in charge and it was always about I had to be like, yeah, go to dinner with you to talk about this business deal that if you're going to think that I'd want to fuck you, I never will, but we'll have dinner just so we can have this and you'll see that I'm smart and you want to work with me. Like all the shit I've had to do because someone wants to have sex with me and that was a thing. But now I feel like that's gonna be changing now too for this generation and your generation that I don't think it's gonna happen as much

where it was the only way you would do business. Like I got, I got, most of my experiences working with men were, many of them were inappropriate. Like in the sense of I never, I feel like there was always an expectation that I was a woman or that I was really pretty, but I wasn't smart, because I was a woman. I mean, I had to go through so much of this. I mean, I do that pretty people can't be smart.

Yeah, or especially like high-fem, pretty people aren't smart. Yeah, and I used to have to prove it. I used to say that. That's fucking garbage. Yeah, all that stuff. Like I'm just, yeah, being a woman was, then a woman who talks about sex, for example.

That's like, yeah. Like all that she must be a slut, she's a prostitute, she's something, she's- I feel the same way, like as like a femme who talks about fashion a lot, everyone assumes that that means, like they like look at me on Instagram and then they're surprised that I'm really smart.

And I'm just like, oh baby, like you really should look at a bright pink lip and know that there's more behind it. Right, exactly. You should have the wisdom, and this day and age to know that like that level of audacity generally comes with some real good brains going on.

Exactly. You wouldn't be that odd. It's the brave reads. The brave reads are smart. They're thinking, oh, they just think they're going to talk to you about your jacket. And also, I feel like high-fem aesthetic is about a mastery of a specific art form. It's about learning how to do everything so impeccably, and that knowledge, you have to be brilliant to pull that off.

Yeah, you're right, good point. So it has to be all of these limitations. It's a big men's to your bedbed, men's to your bedbed, really? Basically. Because who have you been to your mentors? I mean, it was in my early career, it was all like, it was all like,

just like powerful women who were my bosses or supervisors. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like I sort of learned early on that like, that was the people I worked best with. Yeah, well men don't have to work for too, I think they can be. They can be.

Many, many can be. I feel like these days I found a lot of men that I enjoy working with them. Right. And it's like yay. Yeah. And it's also, I mean, that's the thing that's nice about being this gender different is that it's kind of,

I feel like it's sort of a, like it sort of filters people out in the best way. You know, like everyone's like, oh, LA so shallow. And I'm like, I've never experienced LA as shallow because shitty people know not to fuck with me. Exactly. This is what, exactly. I always say that I'm like, they're like, oh no, we can't pull anything on that bitch. And I'm like, absolutely not, you can't, don't try.

Well, right. I will literally end you in the New York Times. Like, can't pull anything on that bitch. And I'm like, absolutely not, you can't, don't try. Well, right. I will literally end you in the New York Times. Like, don't fuck with me. Right, exactly. Right. Where there are shadow people everywhere, people who have these, I found that either, people have shadow here, people might be,

they just wouldn't be my people. I'm like, I don't spend time with people who suck or who are just about that. There's good people everywhere you will find them. But Alice probably good place for you right now. Do you like LA? I love it. The sunshine really works well for me.

Yes. I feel like I'm like a little plant and I just need to photosynthesize every day. Exactly. And it's really good for my mental health too. Like the sort of feeling of space and like having access to cute plants. Because in LA, like even in like the most congested

neighborhoods in LA, there's still cute plants on like, and you know, and everyone's yard pretty much. Yes. You know, like even in like, and you know, and everyone's yard pretty much. Yes. You know, like even in like, and like not even necessarily just in like rich neighborhoods, like in most LA neighborhoods, there's still like some kind of cute little succulents out around. Yeah, right.

It's true. Whereas like in New York, that's not true. No, it's not true. And everyone's concerned, I was just there, there was a concern about the weather and I'm so sorry, it's raining and I realize that moving to LA, you literally, that's like one piece of the pie we don't have to worry about here. It's so nice. I know. Until we have to worry about it. Not raining, but like, I don't even care about the rainA. you literally that's like one piece of the power we don't have to worry about here. It's so nice. Until we have to worry about it.

It's not raining, but like. I don't even care about the rain here, because you know what's gonna be Sunday again, it makes me happy. Let's talk about parents. Like what like, because you talk about hitting puberty, how that affected you growing up, I think a lot of parents are going through this right now.

I mean, they're kind of not, can feet whether their kids are coming out as gay or bisexual or whatever it is. So can you talk about your experience? You've read a lot about in the book or what we should do, what advice for parents now? Yeah, the thing I say most to parents, because what I feel like what happens

when parents have a gender nonconforming kid or just a kid who's different in any way, they're like, oh gosh, what do I do with this? You know, like what do I do to help my child? And the irony is that the answer is really simple, but the consequences of the answer are deep. Right. Right, the answer is just, you let your child lead.

Right. Right, like your kids know their gender. You know what I mean? Like, kids have a very innate, like, sort of sense of who they are in the moment. And it may change over time, but like, they know what they wanna explore, they know what they wanna play with,

they know what like fabrics call to them and what clothing calls to them, and they know how they wanna express themselves, or at least what they're interested in trying out. And so the best thing that parents can do to raise gender affirmed like healthy children who don't have a lot of gender shame, who feel good and

are kind towards people across the gender spectrum, is just to like let them lead, you know, and be like, you can wear what you would like. You can wear a dress for Halloween, whatever your early experience is right. Right. But the consequences though are parents and shaming and teachers and religious institutions. Of course. And that's what I mean is like letting your child lead. It's a really simple answer. But then living with it is really hard.

But what I would say is that parents have a lot of anxiety around like, if I affirm my kid, this is great kid. I hope they can hear it in the recording. It's like we're recording in Seattle. I love it exactly. Oh my God, I love it. I hope there's like thunder and lightning. But it's like, you know, there's, I mean, I went through this a lot with my mom and I think

my mom really struggled with this when I was younger. Is she was like, well, I want to affirm my kid because there's nothing wrong with my child, you know, wanting to wear cute little dresses. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But then when I affirm my kid, I set them up for bullying and harassment and all this other stuff. And bullying's huge. Yeah. And I guess what I would say is like,

the world is gonna have its way with gender nonconforming people, at least until we build a more empathetic world. The world is gonna have its way with gender nonconforming kids no matter what. And the only thing worse than, you know, facing bullying outside of your home is also facing bullying inside of your home.

And even if it's like, even if it's just sort of trying to subtly steer your kid in a different direction, like kids pick up on that. And what it tells them is like there isn't even a safe space here for you to be who you are. And I think that kids also are really are actually better at understanding complexity than we give them credit for.

And that's the joke about so many things, right? Like the idea that you can't talk to children about sex, right? And it's like, no, you can say really simple things to kids. Like, yeah, sometimes touching can feel good. But if touching feels bad, you should say, like you should say no and tell somebody. Exactly. Like instead of just saying, no, never touch anyone ever.

Right? Like. Just what we're doing, we got kids. We're asking maybe younger, younger ages now and you got to talk and you got to answer it. You can't say go away to your older. Right. You can just be like sometimes people kiss. You know? And like if you're thinking about kissing anybody, let's talk.

Right. You know? Like, oh, like, you know, and but it's like the thing of like if you say that all touch is bad, then people can't, can't, if you don't acknowledge that there's such a thing as good touch, then you all touch is bad, then people can't, if you don't acknowledge that there's such a thing as good touch, then people don't feel safe to name when they're being abused.

Exactly. You set people up. And I think the same, it's like, people think it's so complicated to explain that to kids and it's not. It's really not. It's really easy actually, because kids learn what you can learn what you teach them.

Kids learn so fucking much every single day. And kids. They're so smart. They're so smart. And kids come to you and people ask you questions. Like, what are the questions that you like, what are the questions that you're tired of getting asked? I don't know if there are many questions I'm tired of getting asked.

Oh, I think the one that I get tired of is like, oh, so when did you come out? Because people want like one story. And I'm like, bitch, literally read the book. Right, exactly. Like, there is not one story. Coming out is never one story and I'm like, bitch, literally read the book. Like, A, like there is not one story. Right, coming out is never one story. And like what you want is a fucking monologue.

And I'm not gonna give you a one person show for free. If you want that, you have to pay a lot of money. Exactly, you know, there's a development process. You need to get me a state. We have to rent a theater, right? Like there's a whole apparatus here. Right, you should do a theater. I want to, I want to do a stage show.

It's like on my name. You've got a book tour. I mean, you've been a bunch of different cities. It was in March, right? April was in March. I want to. I want to do a stage show. It's like on my own. You've been a bunch of different cities, but it was in March, right? April was okay. Yeah, it was March. I went to like 11 cities. It was in the evening. It was bonkers, yeah.

Okay, so what I'd like that you talk about coming out of your shell. Yeah. Coming out of the closet. Yeah, because that's the thing. That's why I have so much trouble is there, but the idea of the closet metaphor, there's this idea that like you come out once and then you're done. And literally no queer person has ever had that experience in the entire world. No trans person.

I'm done and finished. It's like no girl, you have to come out over and over and over again. And the reality is that you carry your shell on your back like a snail. And anytime you feel threatened, you reserve the right to go back into it. And that's the other thing I don't like about this idea of the closet is that we don't have, and anytime you feel threatened, you reserve the right to go back into it. And that's the other thing I don't like about this idea of the closet is that we don't have, like there's not an origin story

around how queer trans people got in that closet. You know, people are just like, oh, you were in the closet as if it's natural, as if you were born there. And I'm like, no, you're literally chased in there by like an ax murderer of heterosexism. Exactly. You know what I mean?

Like by like a heterosexist, like cisgender culture that like, you must not wear dresses if you're a boy and you must like girls, and if you don't, you're wrong and bad, and you're chased in there by an ax murderer when you're three years old, and then you like have to live in that closet with Jack Nicholson outside the door. Exactly. Like, you know, and like, you don't come out and then just be like, and I'm here and then it's a glitter can explode. Like, you come out and then you have to fucking fight Jack Nicholson or like run away from him, or like kill him or whatever in order to like, actually like live in the damn house.

You know what I mean? I'm just like, I need a more exciting metaphor and one that is, that actually centers like the humanity and experience of pre-entrance people. And for me, it's like rather than trying to reclaim this idea of the closet because I just feel like it's too far gone. Because I'm like, I love closets also.

I don't ever want to come out of my closet. If I could live in my closet, I would. Like, can my whole house be my closet? That's where I want my kids. Like, what are living rooms? Can I just have couches that are between racks of clothes? Like, I would be in heaven. That's the right stuff.

So, why do closets have such a bad wrap? You know, like, they're beautiful spaces. Right, exactly. Anyway, but I feel like for me, this metaphor of snails in their shells is so much better because what it says is like, if a snail recoils into a shell, no one says, oh, you aren't courageous. People are just like, oh, you got threatened by something. You got spooked.

Right. So it's okay that you're in your shell. You got spooked. Whenever you feel safe, come up, come back out. You know, and you don't. That's still loving. Right. It's a loving metaphor.

And it allows the humanity of queer and trans people to shine. And it allows us to not be blamed when we protect ourselves. You hide yourself when you're threatened. And that's a very natural human response. And you're not being dishonest. You're not being deceitful. You're only protecting yourselfest, you're not being deceitful, you're only protecting yourself as best you know how.

And maybe you got spooked by something you didn't need to get spooked by, but also like, we're just soft little snails. It makes sense that sometimes we're spooked like every human is a soft little snail. We're very soft creatures emotionally. I just, I just want to hug everyone in their shells. Like I just did so much compassion. And also like snails are really cute. They are cute. Okay. God, you have to go, okay.

And gay. I know. That's a really gay. I love snails. They leave glitter everywhere. They do. They're slimy glitter trails all over your damn garden. Oh, that queen was here.

Why are they glitter? They big glitter. Well, they're not, like, they're like shiny little, like you know, snail trails, like they leave little, like a little flyy, you shiny. Well, now, I remember them, I had them in a cage, sorry, I was a kid,

well, you know, I'm missing, like a thing. Well, I think some snails are probably okay being, as long as you're feeding them. I feel bad that I put them in a cage. I don't know, I feel like a- Anyway, I understand I like the whole thing. So what would you tell people who are listening to this,

or are there kids or relatives or anything that are trying to figure out their sexual identity along with their gender identity? Mm. I mean, what resources, what could they do? What do they say? We talked a little about what they could say, but like, they said a whole new world.

Right. Which I love. Well, and again, the advice is really simple. Following up with it can be really difficult. But I just, we can never underestimate the value and the power of the question. What do you need? What can I do for you?

Is there anything I can do for you? Because if someone comes out to you, sometimes they don't need you to do anything. Sometimes they're like, no, I'm still, this is still a meat thing, and I'm figuring it out, and I'm like, want to take it slow. But I'll let you know when I need supporter help. You know, but I'm figuring it out and I'm like, I want to take it slow, but I'll let you know when I need support or help. But I think it's just sort of being like, hey, I'm here if you need anything.

And you can name a list specificity if you have what those things might be, right? Like, if you want to talk about how you're feeling, if you want to go shopping together or explore something or put on something that you're not comfortable with, if you need help going out and public dressed in a different way for the first time, or you want someone to be your cheerleader while you do that, I'm here for you.

If you need help, like buying your first tuba lipstick because you're a little scared to go in the makeup aisle because you don't know how to deal with people looking at you, I'm here for you then. If you just wanna have a 12 hour conversation about all your feelings, I'm here for you. If you need someone to talk to mom and dad for you, like I'm here for you. If you need someone to talk to mom and dad for you, like I'm here for you. If you need someone to like go into

your school, like into the office at your school and yell at your principal and tell them to shut the fuck up and step the fuck back or you're going to call the ACLU, I will do that, right? Like I will do anything you need in terms of support because I'm not like the hardest thing when you're trying to figure out who you are is the uncertainty makes it difficult to stand up for yourself. You know, when you're still not quite certain about who you are in this world, it's really hard to stand up for what you need.

And sometimes having someone else who can like stand up for you and use the fact that they're not, they're not the trans person going through it necessarily, but they're an ally who like has all the power that kind of being an ally comes with, that can mean the world. That's true.

And kids see that in so many different areas of their life. And adults, you know, even adults figuring shit out, just being like, need me to talk to your boss, need me to like, you know, need me to, you know, to like suggest something. And you can do this for coworkers, you can do this for friends, but it's just like ask people what they need.

Right, ask them before you start to give advice to. Right. That's a universal. Yeah, because I mean, someone was talking to me the other day. I have a problem with that. That's about like, over advised for they don't ask me for advice and I'm start giving advice.

Well, it's because you're like a power thing. I know. You know, it comes with the territory. I do that too and I have to like watch myself or like, nope, do not be a person of the, start their advice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like people like, you know, go on their journey in their own time. But that was like, one of my friends was talking to perfect. Start the app, yeah. Like people, like, you know, go on their journey

in their own time. But that was, like, one of my friends was talking to me. He was like, yeah, my sister is like, bye. And she's having a lot of trouble. And, you know, she's not out to, like, our dad, but she's out to everyone else in the family. And she doesn't quite know how to feel good with herself. And I just can tell that she's still

has a lot of shame about this. What do I do? And I was like, well, solving her shame is a, like shame is a multi-year problem. It's not something that you as her brother can totally solve. And taking it upon yourself to solve it can actually feel like a violation of her boundaries. Which is so true and so complex to understand

were more fixers. Right, so it's like, sometimes the best thing you can do is be like, if you need anything, I'm here. I'm glad that you're more fixers. Right, so it's like, sometimes the best thing you can do is be like, if you need anything, I'm here, I'm glad that you're on this journey. And I'm gonna not try and get in the way of what you need to do, but just let me know if you need help and let's check in every now and then. Right, and then check in more than once too,

because we all think they say things, but you can keep checking with someone. Right, yeah. My friend just had a death in her friend. Like a lot of my friends, it's the same thing. Your friends need you, but they might not be ready yet. So just be in the process. Yeah being that one's going through something. No, it's like, you gotta just be like,

hey, I know you need some space to work this out, but like, are there any practical easy things I can do? Right? Like, do you need help with grocery shopping? Are you having, like, is your mental health okay? Like, are you showering and eating regularly? Like, the basics. Like, are you covered on the basics?

Do you need help strategizing those? Because sometimes when you're going through something, those things become difficult. Exactly. You know, like, do you need help strategizing those? Because sometimes when you're going through something, those things become difficult. Exactly. Do you need more culture resources? Can I buy you some cute shit and send it your way? Can I buy you a cute book?

Is there anything you've been thinking about reading? There's a million questions you can ask that are non-invasive, where you're not saying, I'm going to solve your problem for you. But you're saying, hey, let me be a resource in helping in whatever way feels good. Right, those are all great. Those are all very great specific ways you can help people.

Can I help pay for a therapy session? Exactly. Would it help, like, is the financial burden of finding therapy? Are you just scared to pay that, like, 60 or 100 or whatever dollars you have to pay? Like, if me paying that would help you get started, I'm down to pay it. Can I help find a therapist? Do you need help finding people? I can find to get some referrals from friends, like whatever.

You know, there's like a million, like, tactical things you can do. Right, because that's where we often get stuck. Right. Which, right. Speaking to someone who gets stuck with details, I get it. Yes. It's so easy to help others sometimes and not do those things for ourselves. Exactly.

But like, being a strategy partner on the details can be really, really helpful. Yeah, exactly. Wow, love the way you put it. I love the way you put everything. Everyone has to get your book. Um, and I have five questions I have to ask. I ask every guest. This is Cissy, a coming of gender story, Jacob Tobiah.

Thank you. I already have like three literally. I'm ordering on Amazon three copies for parents, friends of mine that they need this for the day. And I was telling you I was just a Michigan and I'm like, this is exactly what I wanted. It's such a great roadmap. If anyone who wants to understand what's really happening, I think this is the future,

and it's really gonna help so many people. So thank you for writing this book and for being here. Well, thank you for reading it and for having me. Yes, of course, I love it. I was so happy I got your text, and then I saw you and you're amazing in your glitter. Okay, five questions, right? Yes.

Something you would tell your younger self about relationships. I would say that learning to just send that text and not overthink it is the best gift you'll ever give yourself. I like it. Biggest turn on. When someone touches your knee for the first time when you're on a date, and it's going well, and they just put their hand on your knee, and you're when you're like on a date and like it's going well and they just sort of like put their hand on your knee and like and you're just like and like

electricity goes through your entire body. Oh my god, that's like the g-rated one I guess. I don't know what the R one is because that's like how do you choose? Biggest turn off. Um, biggest turn off is when someone, uh, when people won't own up to their trauma, yeah, when people won't come to the table and be like, yeah, I'm fucked up too. Same. Now we're going to this five quick questions,

but yes, people like everything's perfect, everything's perfect, nothing's perfect. We all should. Yeah, don't pretend you have your shit together. No one does, like stop that. Exactly. Let's fuck. I'll fuck it out of you.

I'm gonna fuck the trauma right out of you. What's the most important personality trait in another person? Uh, it's a simple one, but it's a good and empathy. Something you wear that makes you feel confident every time. Uh, my grandma's earrings. Is that what you're wearing? No, these are like from in a state sale, so they are someone's grandma's earrings. Oh, is that what you're wearing? No, these are like from in a state sale, so they are someone's grandmother's earrings

that they're not my grandmother's. Okay, got it. You go to state sales and LA all the time. I haven't been to a lunch, but we should. We should, I love it. You have to find the ones where there's like a bag of clip on earrings in a plastic ziplog, like a sandwich bag, and it's just like $10.

Take them off. Then you go great, and then you take them all, and there will be at least five gems in there. Yes, and all the scarves and the bags and the purses. I would do it with you since we're neighbors. Okay, thank you so much for being here. We can find you at time and the best place to find you. Just on Instagram, at JacobTobiah, Twitter,

at JacobTobiah, and JacobTobiah.com. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this show and I love hearing from you on everything. Let me know what you think, which shows you loving. Also, thanks for sharing this with your friends. And if it's helped you, it'll help others. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer, Jamie, and Michael.

Was it good for you? Email me. Feedback at sexwithemily.com. you