Sex With Emily - Best of: Sex Drive, Love & Attachment w/ Dr. Helen Fisher

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

On today’s Best of episode, I am joined by renowned biological anthropologist and author of Anatomy of Love, Dr. Helen Fisher. We discuss whether love at first sight is possible, how our personality traits shape our attraction to others and the way our biology influences who we love.We dive into the parts of your brain responsible for your sex drive, romantic love, and deep attachment. Dr. Fisher also shares findings from studies she has done with Match to answer the question: why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? We also explore the best age to marry, why orgasms create connection, the importance of space in a relationship and why casual sex is not really so casual (hint: catching feelings is real). You can take Dr. Fisher’s personality test to learn about how your personality impacts who you love and how you bond.Take Dr. Fisher’s Personality Test here: https://theanatomyoflove.com/relationship-quizzes/helen-fishers-personality-test/For even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do. Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry as women, but men just fall faster because they're so visual. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that block our sacred institutions. Betrubize they call them in a fight on days. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize

your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. On today's best of episode, I'm joined by renowned biological anthropologists and author of Anatomy of Love and so many other great books, Dr. Helen Fisher. We discuss so many things in this episode that your brain just might explode. All the questions you might be having about relationships like is love at first sight possible. How our personality traits shape our attraction to others? And we're going to give you a personality test you can take, so you can figure out which

personalities you match with. We also talk about the way our biology influences who we fall in love with, the stages of rejection, the right time to define a relationship, we talk about the brain systems that are actually responsible for different kinds of love. Dr. Fisher also shares studies of why you fall in love with one person rather than another. Do you ever think about that? Like, why am I attracted to these kind of people? We also have to have the best times to marry, why orgasms create connection,

how you can put some space in your togetherness. We've often spending a little bit too much time together, right? All good relationships need space. Also, why casual sex isn't really casual. All right, intentions with Emily. For each episode, join me in setting an intention. What do you want to get out of this episode? I set one in every episode, and my intention, simply was to get Dr. Helen Fisher here to

break down love, attachment, and sex. I can't wait to hear from you what you think of this episode. And remember, if you want to ask me questions, call my brand new hotline 559 Talk Sex or 559-825-5739. Just leave me your questions or message me at sexwithfamily.com slash ask Emily. Always include your name, your gender identity, location, and age, and how you listen to the show. Alright everybody, enjoy this special episode. Dr. Helen Fisher, PhD, is one of America's most prominent anthropologists and senior research

fellow at the Kinsey Institute. She's conducted extensive research written six books on the evolution and future of human sex, love, marriage, gender differences in the brain, and how your personality styles shapes who you are. She's currently using her knowledge of brain chemistry to discuss the neuroscience of team building, business leadership, and innovation. I've been inspired by Helen Fisher for so many years. to discuss the neuroscience of team building, business leadership, and innovation. I've been inspired by Helen Fisher for so many years. I remember when I was starting out doing my show a long time ago. I was listening to an interview with her on the radio and I was just

stopped my car in the middle of the road and started taking notes. Well, I'm so excited she's joining us today. Welcome to the show, Dr. Helen Fisher. Can you just talk about to break down to my listeners? Like the three basics of love. I know you've talked about this for years, and then we're going to build upon this, but the lust, romantic attraction attachment. Yeah, I was walking actually in a park in New York City several years ago, and suddenly it created me.

I wonder if we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive. Second is feelings of intense romantic love, and the third is feelings of deep attachment. And that all kinds of love, I mean, you know, is some combination of those three. Now, I'm not, you would not going to be in love with your mother, you can just feel deeply attached to your mother, you're not going to have sex with your mother, et cetera, et cetera.

So there's going to be all different kinds of combinations that we make. But I think that these three basic brain systems evolved and they evolved for different reasons. I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a whole range of partners. You're going to have sex with somebody you're not in love with. I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just one at the time and start the mating process. And I think this feelings of deep attachment evolved to enable you to stick with this person at least long enough to raise the child together as a team.

So these things do different jobs. We feel attachment to all kinds of people. What's interesting is when I looked into the brain, romantic love can be triggered instantly. It's like a brain system, like the fear system. You can be scared instantly and you can boom, you can fall in love instantly. Like the like a brain system, like the fear system. You can be scared instantly, and you can boom, you can fall in love instantly. Like the love of first sight. Right.

Isn't it more lust at first sight? I think it's often love at first sight. You know, I do all these studies with match. Yes, I know. Let's talk about all your studies. And one of the questions was, do you believe in love at first sight? Not sex at first sight, or lust at first sight, but love at first sight?

And over 50% of both men and women said yes. when I asked the question as it ever happened to you I think it's something like forty percent of men it said yes and a little I think twenty nine percent of women or thirty percent of women it said yes but you have to be ready for it I mean you know as you grow up you you you we evolve what I call a love map. An unconscious list of what you're looking for in a partner. And then suddenly the time is right. You're ready to fall in love and you see somebody who fits within that love map, even somewhat and they smile at you and they laugh with you or they crack a joke and instantly you can trigger that brain circuitry for romantic love and fall madly in love, not just lust, but in love. And you know these three brain

systems, a lot of people get them mixed up. They feel that lust comes first and then romantic love and then feelings of attachment. But these are brain systems. They can operate in any combination. I mean you have some wonderful friend at school or at work and it's just a nice attachment and you feel deeply attached and then suddenly you're free, they're free and boom you can feel a romantic love. Then you can feel the sex drive or you can fall in love first and then suddenly everything. Once you fall in love with somebody, everything becomes sexual about them. What if you get stuck though one of these phases? What if you're only like in the last phase? A guy with the people who can't move on or can't attach?

Right. I think that different times of life, we're looking for different kinds of things. I mean, I know a guy right now who just really wants to sleep around. That's what he wants to do. He really does. He does not want any kind of attachment. He had a long attachment to somebody and he's done with that for the moment. Well, he'll probably get back to it, we'll say. And then there's some people, I call them romance junkies. And they need that thrill, that dopamine high, the elation, the gettingness, the foria, the romance. And so as that begins to settle down a bit

into a deep attachment, then they'll feel claustrophobic and want to move on. And then there's people I call them attachment junkies. They can't leave a bad partnership, because they're stuck. They have that sense of attachment, even if it's quite abusive. So actually, I think that all three of these brain systems can be perfectly wonderful, and all of them can be perfectly horrible.

I mean, I think you can have a real sex addiction, a real romance addiction, or a real attachment addiction, but when they're working well, and when you've found all three in the same person, that's a beautiful addiction. It is, right. Exactly. How is this a change? Because this was a huge research that you did. It's made a huge impact. And what do you say has been one of the biggest impacts it had on the way people think about love and attachment, or at least what could people learn from this now?

Like, how could they learn about themselves and the way they date and the way they love? I think my recent research is probably the most important for that. It's on personality. It's nice to know about these three branches. It's nice to know what's happening to you. Right. And it's nice to think a little bit clearly about it

and stay away from things that don't work. I mean, I said to a man last night, I was at this gola and he said, well, so and so and he broke up and I said, well, stay broken up. She's not the right person for you. I've known their saga for several months and there's just too much drama. And they're both wonderful people, but they're not right for each other right now. And maybe they never will be.

So your person, I love your part. We took the personality quiz for a minute. Oh, you did. I bet you're just like me. I don't know what I'm. Mr. Gin. Yeah, Explorer. Negotiator. Yeah, Explorer, negotiator. Yeah, Explorer, negotiator. Yes.

And I knew without even just reading the dopamine. I'm like, yes, I am dopamine. Yeah. I wanted to clarify this part. We're going to get into the personality test that Helen Fisher created. But I wanted to explain it to you here so it all makes sense.

So her personality quiz is essentially talks about the way you express four broad styles of thinking and behaving. And each one of these behaviors is associated with our four basic brain systems, dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen system. So she took those systems and there are four personality types, the explorer, the builder, the director, and the negotiator. And we're a

combination of all of these four traits, but we express some more than others. So when you take this quiz, you might score equally on two or sometimes three, but we tend to, you know, favor one or two. But to break it down for you, so explorers have more of the traits linked with the dopamine system. They're curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, daring, risk-taking. Builders express more of the traits linked with serotonin system. They're more traditional, conventional, cautious, but not scared. They observe social norms, they followed the rules, they

respected authority, they like making plans and schedules. Then we have the directors and directors have more traits linked with testosterone. These people tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, skeptical, tough-minded, emotionally contained. Then we have the negotiators. They have more of the traits in the estrogen system, holistic, contextual, long-term and imaginative thinkers, the good at reading postures, gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice. So you can take the quiz yourself.

I just wanted to explain it to you a little bit here before we get in deeper into the test and the personality types. Match.com came to me and said, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, I don't know. I mean, nobody knows. I mean, we do tend to fall in love with people from the same socioeconomic background, same general level of intelligence, same general level of good looks, an educational level,

same religious and social and economic goals, reproductive goals, but you've been walking into a room and everybody's from your background and same level of intelligence and good looks and education, and you don't fall in love with all of them. All the time. So, but I began to think to myself, okay, maybe basic chemistry draws you naturally towards one person rather than another. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't have chemistry. We don't know what that means because- So what does that mean? What. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry, or we don't have chemistry. We always worry about what that means,

because what does that mean? What does it mean, Alan Fisher? So, it's really so cute. You want it? Well, so anyway, what I did is I went through the last 40 years of biological literature, looking for any trade at all linked with any biological system. And there's a lot of systems in the brain,

but most of them keep the eyes blank, you know, the heart beating, they're not linked with personality traits But these four are the dopamine serotonin testosterone and estrogen systems So I listed the traits of each one of these basic brain systems and Made a questionnaire for match To see to what degree you express the traits in the dopamine serotonin testosterone and estrogen system over 14 million people have now taken that questionnaire in 40 countries and a million is quite people love

questionnaires they really do they love questioners and because this one is the only actually the only one on earth that is built on basic brain circuitry. No, no, I know that's bragging, but the problem is, no, no, you won't. Bragging, I don't think she has some bragging now. Jesus. Thank you, thank you.

So anyway, so here are the four traits that are linked with each of these systems. And then I was able to watch on match in all these countries, who's naturally naturally drawn to whom and that's where I Had suddenly slipped into mother nature's kitchen and begun to figure out why him why her why you fall in love with one person rather than another but anyway I know I am my her which is also if you guys are interested in this at all you want more in your book Why him why her yeah, and the question is in that so in much more detail. And how to get along with these people. But anyway, people who are very expressive of the dopamine

system I call explorers, Emily, your one, our one, risk-taking, novelty-seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible, and idea generation. These are the people who come up with out of the box ideas. And they're drawn to people like themselves Explorers want explorers. They want somebody who's gonna leap off the couch and I don't know go swimming in Central park Or racing over to Lincoln Center at the you know 10 minutes before something's gonna start and just go in and plop down whatever

They want to you know take their backpack and go off to Laos and look in the woods or whatever Anyway, the bottom line is the high serotonin. I call these people builders. They like the familiar, their traditional conventional. They follow the rules, their respect authority. They think concretely instead of theoretically, they like schedules and plans. They tend to be quite social and they tend to be religious. Religiosity is actually in the serotonin system.

Yeah. And these people are drawn to people like themselves. Traditional goes with, goes for, no, that makes sense. And a good example is Mike Pence or Mitt Romney. I mean, they've married people who are very traditional like themselves. They follow the rules.

They're very structured. They're concrete thinkers. They're principled. Well, it's taking your questions. Like, do you do you follow the rules like do you like never? No, I mean I follow the rules if it makes sense to me, but that's about it Good on the road. I follow the rules of the road Mostly I love And but anyway, so that type goes for that type. Highest testosterone goes for high estrogen and vice versa.

People who are very high testosterone tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough-minded, skeptical. Good at what we call rule-based systems, everything from engineering to computers to math to mechanics. Steve Jobs was a good example. I'm sure Bill Gates is. Hillary Clinton, I heard you say, Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is. I think she's high testosterone. She was actually interested in going into the Marines. I mean, she's tough-minded that girl. Right. And she married a high estrogen. That's what's amazing.

What did you say that that Bill Clinton was probably a high estrogen? Well, these people are verbally skilled. People skills. He's goes, she can't stop negotiators. And directors, directors of the Heitzes Tastro and the negotiators of the high estrogen. And negotiators, yeah, they think broadly, contextually. And of course, that's you. Because the person constantly interviewing people, constantly thinking outside the box,

constantly looking for other ways of seeing a particular issue. It's going to be high estrogen presence. Verbally skilled, people skills can deal with ambiguity. Yes. I thrive. Very good nurturing, trusting, diplomatic, generally, and mentally flexible. So they go for their opposite. It's a work explorers, right?

You said we go, would we only date other explorers though? Because to me, who's gonna pay the, you know, who's gonna make sure we get play sometime, you know? That's why I think maybe I've been more attractive to testosterone as a director. Well, the bottom line is we are, we are, yeah, we are all four. I mean, the problem with all these other personality questionnaires is that they put you in one bucket or another. These are brain systems, we are all four. I mean, the problem with all these other personality questionnaires is that they put you in one bucket or another.

These are brain systems, they're not buckets. So for example, my boyfriend and I are both high dopamine. That works fine. He, I am high estrogen and he is high testosterone. Oh, it's hard. So that works fine too. He is higher serotonin. And in this case, I mean, he's not that high

or I wouldn't, I'd have a hard time at it. Right, right, right. But he's higher than I am. And so he plans everything, and it's sort of beautiful because I, I mean, yesterday we were driving through Pennsylvania, and man, he knew where we were going, he knew how long we're going to take to get there. He got our hotel room. We got to the hotel too late, and we were looking for it to go to that restaurant.

He immediately got on his phone and found another really nice place to go. All of that, if it had been you and I, we would have gotten out the door and started walking. Exactly, exactly. This is my husband. We had a good time too. It would have been fun when we found someone

that would invite us over dinner, maybe. Exactly, whatever. But this is the thing with my ex, I was saying this, that he's great guy, but I'm like, no one planned anything Like I'm not a planner and that I felt kind of like it was always it was a thing So I was like how do I figure this out now? I had a time I'd never been in that situation before because he kept saying why aren't you planning stuff?

I'm like oh wow I haven't been in this situation because I must have always been attracted to the person who plans right so anyway But so using this quiz he must have always been with somebody who plans. I guess so because the things that I'm gonna couch. Oh, wow. Not a lot. I mean, he wanted to play video games. There was a many things that didn't work. But in the end, I try love him. James was like, really with the boyfriend, but it's just interesting to learn. Yeah, but what's really what's really interesting is and now, for example, he and I were going to the movies. This was months ago. And I said to him, I said, sweetheart sweetheart do you have any water in your backpack and he said yeah I do and I said oh great we can drink it in the movie house he said no we can't you can't bring food or

drink it to a movie house you got to buy it at the concession stand. Oh Sarah tonan right Sarah tonan the at a moment of Sarah tonan. But you like no it's put in the backpack. I said wow but what's beautiful is you know I mean I're like, no, it's part of the backpack. I said, wow. But what's beautiful is, I mean, I, modern psychology is very good. It's all very good. But the bottom line is, we are blaming everything these days on our mother and our childhood. Some of who we are is just biological.

He wasn't stubborn about that water because of the way he grew up. It's who he is. It's who he was born. It's who he's going to be. And under those circumstances, you just have to do a work around. You don't have to go to a psychiatrist for 15 years to wonder why he can't bring water to a movie house. It's just who he is. And then I said, okay,

we buy the water. You know, the concession stand. So the bottom line is, I mean, psychology has added a great deal about who we are and how to get along and it's all good. I mean, John Gottman is a brilliant man about, don't show contempt, don't threaten divorce. Listen actively, all very good. But the bottom line is get to know who the person also is biologically. And you can make a good relationship. Now for example, my man has these crazy, wonderful ideas.

I love them, you know. Right. And somebody else would be very impatient with all this, but it works perfectly for me. And it's who he is. He's not going to change. Right. People don't change either.

No, they don't. They can, we can adapt. It depends on you. But, you know, I mean, could I ever make you uncurious? I don't think so. Could I ever make you, I mean, if you and I went to Laos together, I mean, we'd plan a little bit. We'd figure out what we're saying.

Right, right. But we wouldn't have a plan for what we're going to do every day for three weeks. We would not do that. We'd be anxious. I bet I've already seen a cancel day three. Exactly. Right. We'd bring a little guidebook and we'd get it in with breakfast. We'd figure out what we're doing. We're traveling. I feel like we need to do something together. We're going to take a quick break, but we come back. I asked Dr. Helen Fisher about attachment styles and what they mean for our relationships. Can we go into attachment styles a little little bit because isn't it important to kind of know why you attach or?

Sure, absolutely. And things about that. I've actually learned, I'm constantly like learning more about that too. So am I. I'm really learning about that personally. I need to buy it. Because I was. I haven't been to four years old and then how do you know if your mom wasn't looking

into your eyes like you're everything to her? What if she kept leaving the room and then you feel not loved? Or if you had abused or I think so. I mean all of that's very worthwhile. There's no question about it. What I'm trying to do is add the second half of the puzzle. A huge number of other people are adding that half of the puzzle. Your child, the traumas, who you are, how you expect the world to behave around you, what you're looking for in a partner, all of that is, I think, extremely valuable. But there's a second half of this puzzle, which is who you're built to be. And a good 40 to 60% of who you are does come out of your biology. Some people are going to, are, they're home bodies.

They're going to keep being home bodies. Unless they don't want to be a home body. And then they marry somebody who wants to go out all the time and there may be some friction in it But I mean, I think you just have to know not only who you are, but who your partner and friends are Now for example, I've got a friend a girlfriend who's very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen So I'm I just don't do conflict. I just I'm not in I just I just don't do conflict I just I can't go with it. I just don't do it. So one day recently, I met her for lunch. And I walked in and she said,

Helen, where'd you get that purse? And I said, well, I bought it in the street. And she said, it looks it. It looks cheap. I have friends like that. And I said, Marie. And she said, Helen, I'm just trying to be honest with you. I'm trying to be helpful.

But the high estrogen type takes it as an attack. Yes. And so when you understand that she's trying to be, I mean, I'm glad she said that. Right. But one of the problems with the very high testosterone is that I don't fight back. Right. And then one time I did fight back. And I said, you know, and after when I fight back,

it's perfectly fine with the high testosterone. They're used to that. But then I go home and I say, why did I say that? Oh, I feel like such a heel. Oh, I felt so aggressive. Well, you know, and so, I mean, it's hard to, not, it's hard to be somebody that you really are not. We can act out of character. It's hard to be somebody that you really are not. No, it's so. We can act out of character.

It's just tiring. And in my case, it can just be, you know, very socially anxious. I see socially anxious. Same. It's so funny. I'm totally conflict-avoidated. And I guess, and I love what you're saying, because I mean, a whole like 16 life was went off.

Because in a way, it's like, I friends like that too. And I kind of like it was like, no Emily, you're not where my friend came over. She must be high-test, so I said testosterone. She cleaned out my whole closet. She was helping me because I was too much stuff and cluttered. Jake, this is cheap. You can't wear it again. And I was like, great. Like I, it wasn't, it didn't make me upset. I'm trying to get it stuff. But she's so, and I appreciate her directness. And she literally was like, no, these are done. These are done. Get this rid of this. And we need people like that

in our lives. But I, it's just funny thinking about the people who are attracted to me, even as friends, but yeah, conflict. I've been like that forever. It would be hard to travel with somebody like that for me. Oh, yes. You know, but you're right. I know what you're saying. As long as you can appreciate her.

And she can appreciate you. She appreciates you. She does. She loves it. She loves it so. Yes. Because I've got friends who just, they just think I'm weak because I'm sweet and I'm pleasant and I'm accommodating and I'm trying to level the playing field and they take that as weakness.

Do they tell you but when you're... No, they treat me that way. Oh, you know. But then don't you feel like that you don't want to be around those front lines? Yeah, not long, because it's too tiring. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. The front lines who are just draining, the ones that are drained.

I think you learn this as you get older, you start to shed and you just feel that they spend a lot of time. Well, I can't even do it anymore if you're not. If it's conflict, every time you call me I'm anxious, I see the phone you're not, if it's conflict. Yeah. Every time you call me, I'm anxious. I see the phone clock's going to be stressful. No. Yeah.

Well, I mean, women hold on to their friends, particularly the high estrogen type. Right. They're going to hold on to their, you know, because they feel obliged. And I think women on you, yeah, I think women do an awful lot of things that they don't feel like doing. Right.

Well, it's true. But I guess as you learn that you don't have to do them anymore. But I guess if it's part of who you are, I don't know if you haven't learned. I know. I'll always be a good friend. I'm a pleaser too. I guess you're making me feel like it's okay. I'm a pleaser.

Yeah, me too. I'm a horrible pleaser. Horrible pleaser. Overpleaser. Yeah, I think you think you. Yeah, my friend finally said to me last week, she said, thank you. You just said thank you so much. I'm like, I'm so appreciative though. She goes, but after a while it's diminishing returns. Like you could

just say thank you once. Oh that's interesting. I was like, okay. Because if you said thank you all the time with me, I'd get it. Right. Oh my god, my god. I think I literally I'm so grateful that I'm gonna figure out. I mean, I mean it though. Yeah. I know. So who knows. I get it. I mean, it was you and me. It was so funny. I was doing this years ago. I was doing this Photography thing with the photography. It was a woman and it was me and we would get out of sync So I would be moving when she was clicking and I said, oh, I'm sorry. She said, oh, I'm sorry I said oh, I'm sorry

I'm sorry and finally the guy was her cruise and why are the two of you so so sorry? And I just said, we get it. We get it. Just don't bother us. Right. Let's speak each other's language. Right. OK, let's talk about millennials in the, I think it's a bad rap, right?

But it's such a bad rap. And it is so wrong. It's a deadass in the whole thing. It is so wrong. It is so wrong. I mean, first of all, this is, this dating app is just new technology. You have to learn how to use it.

The only real algorithm is your own brain. You're going to get out and meet the person. And these dating apps, they're not, you know, as I say, this is match and they know it. And everybody else does too. These are not dating sites. They're not dating apps. They're introducing apps.

They're introducing sites. And what they are is they just give you an awful lot of people and then you have to sift through it. The problem is the human brain is not built until we even cope with so many choices. The brain has a sweet spot of apparently between five and nine alternatives. And after that, you don't choose any. You just don't choose any. I hear about these people who you know had 30 dates and 30 days, no wonder. I mean, they're just in a complete other. They're not going to be anybody. And so I basically ended up saying, you know, I mean, there's, you just have to learn how to use this new system. And the one thing.

Number one, after you've met nine people, stop and get to know at least one of those people more because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them, and the more you think that they are like you. So stop after that. And for men and for women? Oh, yes, definitely for men and for women. A men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do.

Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry in men as women, but men just fall faster because they're so visual. Yeah. So, um, so there's two things. A, stop after you've met nine people and get to know one of them better. And second, think of reasons to say yes. The brain is built to say no, we've got this huge brain region in the behind your forehead in a brain region linked with what we call negativity bias.

The brain is built to think of the negative. For example, let's say we all go to a party and everybody says, oh Emily, you look so great and this and that. And then somebody says, Emily, have you lost too much weight? What are you gonna remember? Just that. Yeah, like why should I go on my weight?

Yeah, I'm just getting it right. So, you know, that's just because for survival, I will tell you the truth, right? Absolutely. I mean, for millions of years, it was adaptive to remember who did not like you. Right, right. And it was good to know who you do, who does like you,

but if you forget who doesn't like you, you could be dead. So we remember the negative. And so when you go out with somebody, in the first day, think of reasons to say yes. Overlook the fact that he's got brown shoes instead of black shoes, that he's wearing a t-shirt instead of a tie, whatever.

I mean, if it's really obvious, then you gotta get out of it. No, we were absolutely right. We're so picky. People say they're so picky. They're so picky. There's a picky then you're talking to me. And women are picky other than men are.

For good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. I mean, we're gonna bear that baby. And that's gonna be dangerous. Baby comes out in black shoes. I mean, we're going to bear that baby, and that's going to be dangerous. Baby comes out in black shoes. But what about this whole thing about men decide who they're going to sleep with, and 42 minutes or less, they're on a date or five seconds. No, women can decide within three minutes. Absolutely.

But what if we decided that, but you're saying even then go out with them for a second time, even if we're not sure, or we don't think we would. So if it's a maybe go out again, absolutely. Okay, that's wonderful. And one thing that's interesting about, in one study I did with match, 36% of singles had sex with somebody before the first date.

And older people get all pushed out of shape about that. And they think, oh wow, because in my day, because I'm older, we had the first date long before you kiss somebody. These days, they start out with just friends, they're just friends. And then they move into friends with benefits, you learn a lot between the sheets, you get to know somebody, then after a period of time you go and tell friends and family, and then you have the official first date. And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, they're not. They're being more careful with the first date. And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, they're

not. They're being more careful with the first date. And these days, a first date is expensive. I mean, in my day, they picked me up after dinner and we played miniature golf or in a parking or whatever. But these days, it can cost you $200. And if you're in L.A. or in New York. So, you really want to know who you're spending your money and your time on. What we're really seeing is the extension of what I call the pre-commitment stage. This long period of getting to know somebody before you tie the knot. And I think that makes great sense. In fact, I did a study of 1,100 married people and I said to them, one of the questions was, would you reminnery the person you're currently married to, and 81% said yes. And I think that the, well, I've got three pieces

of very solid data that the later you marry, the more likely you are to stay married. So what millennials are doing is they're getting their career in order, they're saving their money, they're sleeping around. Yeah. People sleep around. And I think they get rid of themselves.

They're learning a whole lot about themselves. But they're also learning in this pre-commitment stage how to get rid of the ones they don't want. They're learning more about their own sexuality, about who they want, what kind of sense of humor, where they want to go, all kinds of things they're learning about before they wed. And I honestly think that this long period of pre-commitment

and the opportunity to meet people on the internet, so you don't have to make, you know, foolish choices when you're 19, you can make a good choice when you're 29. Yeah, I think that's the thing. And they have a whole lot of years to get to know yourself and other people. And then, so I was, I mean, you know, people do tend to divorce. I mean, I'm an anthropologist in hunting, and gathering societies.

They did tend to have two or three husbands during the course of their lives. So there's nothing new about divorce. Right. But I do think that the later we marry, well, all the data shows that the later we marry, the more likely we are to remain married. Because we don't know ourselves in our time.

I always say, wait here 30, like just kind of what, I mean, if you can't wait till you're 30 because you're going to figure out who you are. We don't really, not even really, you have made the decisions yet. You haven't been out there in date as many people to understand what might be. Exactly. You're so. And I love the fact that people are living together before they would. You know, I mean, you get, you learn a lot with that too.

And that brings me to LAT. Okay. Oh, we're in a circle back, LAT. We're in a circle back, LAT. So it means living apart together. I think it's largely for people who are not going to have children, or don't want to have children now. Okay.

And for example, my boyfriend came to me and he said, his son went off to college and so now he could spend a good deal of time together. And the first thing he said to me, he said, you know, Helen, I want two or three nights to myself every week. Well, the first thing I did is I put my hand behind my back and I pulled it, I said, what are you really what you want? Four, you want seven, are we breaking up? Yeah.

He said, no, no, you know, two to three nights a week. It's perfect for me. I have all these girlfriends, I have all these things. I want to do it. Night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep and read a book. You know, you don't want to have to be in bed with someone all these girlfriends. I have all these things I want to do at night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep and read a book I don't want to have to be in bed with someone all the time. I understand that and so and of course I mean what we're probably doing is sustaining this in this romantic tradition, but we're both older right why not

and save your life set your set in your ways and He has his house and I have mine and you know, he'll be here tonight He was not here last night which is perfectly fine. You look forward to seeing him You're not picking up his socks. He's not picking up yours. It's exactly. I think that that has his kitchen He's got what contents of his ice box or you know, Fred Yeah, I mine and What I really like about today is that we have alternatives. You can marry later. Women can have careers. You can get rid of things that don't work in order

to make something that does work. You know, some of these people are polyamorous. Well, that's not for me. I couldn't do that. But it's not a matter of morality. I just, I don't have the personality. Right. Right. Right. I'd be too jealous. I don't want to share but But the bottom line is there's people are polyamorous. I mean every The queer the You know older people with LAT Etc. I think that we have every reason to be able to build the kind of partnerships that we want So then why is it so so hard then you think for some people to what about the women? They say okay

Go back to millennials who they don't want to catch feelings or they don't want to. That's a great term. But how do you get, I don't want to catch feelings. I'd never heard that before you got it. I mean, it was like, for like five years ago, but what is that, I mean, is that meaning, is that protective measure? Or do you think that that's some way I like to think, like they never, their friends aren't

doing it, so they're not looking in, they, I don't understand that. Because I caught feelings a lot in my 20s, I couldn't help it. It's not that. Yeah, no, I think they can't either. But they don't wanna get committed. They don't wanna get into that long-term commitment. One, I, another thing that you just said,

you had never heard that term, catchy feelings. The millennials are adding all these words to our, that I really, really like. I mean, even this thing define the relationship of DTR. Now, in my day, you and I was somebody maybe for months if not years, and you really had no idea if they were going to ask you to marry me. Nothing was defined. You waited until they were wringing his pocket. And now it's defined. And in fact, I asked on match, how long do you, when do you raise that issue of define the relationship?

And I was astonished that they said after about four months, I wouldn't dare to it. That seems very early for me. Oh, really? But they wanted to know what's going on. They really do. They let's term being ghosted and- Yeah, ghosted and pinched and all that.

And catching feelings and all these things. They're defining all this. I really think that's terrific. Yeah, I think so too, because otherwise you're just like going in this abyss. Exactly. And then also people also still make assumptions that what we slept together so we must be committed or we've gone in three dates and that person's probably not dating anyone, even though still they're not dating anyone else.

And they don't make any assumptions about the person you've gone in three dates with. Right. Like if you haven't talked about it yet. yet. That's when you get jealous and all these things happen. So figure it out. And I think the sooner we realize that there's so many options, it's more accepted right now too to to say to someone, I'm casually dating. I'm in friends with benefits. I want this with that. And then then you won't be spending a year with someone who doesn't want the same thing. Exactly. So it makes it makes a lot more sense. I think that's this living apart together thing, I just want to talk about how that is

such a great thing for even couples who are married and living together now. Right. You can still learn from that because I've always had this hunch that like, but as a young, you know, my 20s have that makes so much sense that to have that separation or to kind of when we talk about how women crave novelty and excitement and all the newness, it kind of makes sense to even if you're even living together how you can kind of still instill some of that separateness. Right.

And it just makes sense. And I it's so interesting because you know, I do know people who are living together and own the property together and you know, on the apartment together and they've lived and very often at least in New York, they'll have to even mesh their schedules because she's going out on Tuesday night with her girlfriends and she's going to the theater on Thursday with such and such and what's he doing and so they have to I like that I like the fact that you know I mean what is it as Khalil Kebra in the post that he's in you know put some space in your togetherness yes and we really weren't built for 24 seven I, even in hunting and gathering societies, women would go off to another camp for even a few weeks.

I mean, they traveled. And they didn't always travel together. Yeah, I mean, the couples I know who have this, or like, he travels, or she travels for work every third week, it's great. Yeah. Like, really, like, you get to miss someone. Yeah.

I think that's the same. Yeah, I've got two girlfriends who, during the week, the husband works in Boston, and the wife works in New York. And then they're together on the weekend. So, you know, it's like long distance, but they come, yeah, I mean, I think that's a way. I think it's nice in the beginning. I don't know.

But with kids, it makes a little more challenging. Right. Like, we're talking, like, when you've kids, it can't be a lot of hard. Well, it's so interesting because I was talking to a man who was recently married and has a, I think, a child who who's now something like 10 months old. And I talked to him about LAT living a part together and he said, oh, if I could have just one night, just one night every two weeks, just to myself.

I said, I wouldn't go out with other women. I just one night in a hotel room. And immediately my friend said, oh, I bet his wife wouldn't like that. And I thought to myself, maybe she would. Oh, I'm glad. Why is the best thing that ever happened? Maybe he's switched.

He's talking about everything. Because we think that they go, someone goes to get the hotel room. Exactly. Yeah. I think that we need that. God, I'm excited. Now, we aren't built for all this. You know, I mean, but the nice thing about these days is we can do that.

I mean, you just have to be honest about it and work it out and build it up and build it together. And that's where my man was so great. I mean, I wouldn't have dared to say that. But we wouldn't have said that because I'd been like, right? Because he needed the order at the Sarah-Turban. I never thought of that Emily until this second.

He needed this structure. He doesn't understand. Well done. They don't like that. I don't like that. Yeah, no, I'm upset all of your strategy makes sense. I not even thought of that. But you also had a lot of therapy because of very bad partnership in this past.

I had chalked it up to the bad partnership, but I think that you're right. You need a structure. You need to know. You need to know. You need to know. I need to know. Tuesday nights, which night are you coming? Yeah.

There you go. Thank you. Nothing with the better. Come on up. Oh my God, whatever I can do. When we come back, Dr. Helen Fisher and I explore what goes on in our bodies when we have an orgasm. Let's talk about orgasms, oxytocin, and attachment. So how orgasms bond us. Because I always say that on the show, but I feel like I've heard you talk about it

in a way that how it's just important to just touch in other ways, just the importance of that bonding and touching. You know, I mean sex is good for you. It's good for you in many ways. And you can say all those ways better than I can. I mean, it's good for the skin, it's good for the lungs, it's good for the bladder,

it's good for the sense of humor. I mean, it's good for you if you're with the right person. And in fact, you know, any touching of the genitals drives up the dopamine system and can help you feel feelings of intense romantic love for the person. But with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin and vasopressin. And those are, those brain chemicals are linked with feelings of deep attachment to somebody. So orgasm is good. in fact when i asked match in uh... you know uh... i do this annual study with match calls singles in america

we do not pull the match members we pull the american public so the represented sample of americans based on the u.s. census and almost seventy percent of women regard uh... do not regard as good sex in less they have an orgasm i mean the old days where you supposed to lie back and think of england are over. Yeah. Great, exactly.

Women want sexual gratification just as men do. But can you get confusing, though, too? Just if you people think that they can't be with several people, because women are like, well, if I have an orgasm with them, I'm totally attached to that can't be with anyone else. Well, I don't know. I never thought of that. I have an orgasm.

But I mean, I do think that it brings you closer to somebody. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons that people, you know, sex is not casual. Unless you're so drunk that you can't remember it. It's not casual. I mean, things happen. You learn a great deal about a person. I mean, you learn, you know, not only size and shape and motion,

but whether they're kind, whether they can listen, whether they can accommodate, whether they want to please, whether they do have a sense of humor, whether they're, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So you learn a lot between the sheets. And I do think that once you get into bed with somebody, you know, I mean, sex triggers five of the 12 cranial nerves. I mean, you see them, You hear them. You smell them. You taste them. You feel them. I mean, the whole brain becomes activated by the whole experience.

And of course, with orgasm, it's one of the most powerful feelings the human animal can have. So, you know, it's good to have a partner that you like and bed. And, you know, I mean, it's not the only part of a relationship that you can certainly have. Right. Just to remind couples that the touch is important too, just touching in order. Absolutely. If you're not having a couple, it's like, oh, we don't need any more sex. So usually there's one person that says that.

But you do, you have to continue to connect or figure out a way to do it. I mean, you're a sex therapist, but I would think that... I've always heard from sex therapists that that's one of the biggest problems when one individual wants more than the other. Yeah, that's the biggest problem here, right? Yeah, and I'm not a therapist, but if I was with somebody,

I would be tempted to say, listen, this is an important part of a relationship. If you're not interested, maybe you should try taking some testosterone. That's amazing. The supplements are not to take you out. Yeah, or understand that this is a is a meaningful part for this other person that you should try to accommodate. And the more sex you

have, the more you want, the less you have, the less you want. But we forget after time, like we haven't had orgasm for a while. Right. So no, and it's very good for the body and the mind. So I mean, it's a very important. Now, I mean, there's some people who aren't terribly interested in sex and they bury somebody who's also not terribly interested in sex and that's fine. That is fine. That is fine. Probably not quite as healthy. But, which is fine for them. I'm obsessed with your personality types now. Are you the only one who pulled about these four types? Yes, I'm the only one. I think everyone, I'm literally all I can think about now.

I'm putting everyone into personal types and ways of certain things. It's an entirely new idea. And the business world really likes it. I'm making more and more speeches in business because, you know, I mean, how do these different kinds of people innovate? How do they lead? How do you build a team? And it's that same quiz that's on your side, the same one for businesses. We should figure that out. Yeah, because this is not about love. This is about personality.

Right. You know, and so, I mean, for example, one of the problems in businesses that people, let's say you're building a team, you tend to choose teammates who are like yourself, because you can understand them. Right. Now, if you and I were going to Laos, we might want to have a third person who gets the early ticket. Exactly.

We could rain them in. We don't want an agenda for every single day over there. So, it's important to build a team with some people that you are not like. I mean, I am all for cultural diversity, but how about diversity of mind? Putting some people in your team who do not think the way you do. I mean, I've started this new company called NeuroColor and we've got a second generation personality questionnaire and we go into businesses and we train people on understanding these four styles of thinking and behaving and how to build a team and how do you want to be

talked to. I don't like to be talked. I don't like it when the testosterone tells me where'd you get that purse? Yeah, I don't or that shirt is cheap get rid of it I mean I can do it right and but it's tiring for me I'm trying to be sweet and smile and right, you know, but you might need that guy to talk to your salespeople Exactly the co-founder and I his name is Dave labno and I he's very high testosterone I'm very high estrogen. There's a little clash there at times, but we're both very high dopamine.

We need a high serotonin person. We need the builder. And there's times that we don't know what to do. And so we will call. We've got another two people in the company who are very high serotonin. And we call them and ask them, what would you do under this circuptism?

What do you think about this? Because we are not going to see it the way a high serotonin builder would see it. And it's very valuable to have people around who can do the things that you don't do. And also get them in the right job. I was once out at Visa, the credit card company, and everybody had taken my personality questionnaire. And I could see that there was this one woman took my personality questionnaire. She was the head of the accounting department, a big, big part of visa.

But on my questionnaire, she was all explorer, all, all tied up in mean. And of course, in accounting, you're a bean counter. I mean, it's high serotonin. And it's a very different kind of task. As I pulled her aside, because I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her colleagues and everything. I said, tell me, which is more the real you, the you at work, or the you outside of work?

And she said, oh, outside of work, which is my question air showed. And she said, it's work is very tiring. And it's because she's having to fit herself into a role that she doesn't naturally play. But did she like it or was she like, oh, thank you. I haven't won beer.

I didn't. It's interesting to look at that. Yeah. The people to, yeah, getting yourself in wrong places that to kind of go towards where your natural your skills are. That would be the leaders of the company to try and put people where they will do their best. And people will do their best. And people will do their best.

And now, for example, with innovation, I mean, you are going to think outside the box and come up with a new idea, a better milestone. That's what you're going to do. But you want a nice high serotonin person to create the process, innovate a new process for house done. That's going to make you too impatient. You're going to want a high tech guy to build the butter. That's how strong the teeth is.

Yeah, and then you're gonna want a high estrogen, which is also you, who to sell it to explain it, to advertise it, to et cetera, et cetera. So just getting people in the right place is very valuable. So glad, this is making this up and couple and people dating. Well, that's true. You know, we love like like what about like Myers-Briggs and stuff on their first I don't want to take it. Um, not everyone gets it

Well, one of the things is very hard to remember. Yeah, I am I T.P. You know, it's very difficult to remember It's much easier to remember explore or build a really smart You know director and negotiator So that's it's hard to remember. But also it puts you in buckets. And the bottom line is you can act out of character. I can do serotonin. I mean I pay my bills every month. I do get my schedule under control, I et cetera, et cetera. But I don't feel like doing it. Right ever. And I mean what takes my boyfriend two seconds to go into the internet to buy an airplane ticket. Oh wait

Day before I make the call. Yeah So I'm gonna sit next to me on my couch. My says I'm like okay. We're doing it now. We're doing it now I know it's all right. Yeah, that's who I am. I'm not gonna change it. No so much better. Yeah, I'm just embracing it Yeah, so funny and then dating the van then realizing what's important to you and then finding people can kind of come Yeah, so funny and then dating the pain and realizing what's important to you and then finding you will kind of come fulfill that I had one man that I've hung around with for years I mean we're just friends. I probably know them for 15 years We have gone to the same restaurant for 15 years and he always was to go He's just high serotonin guy and I thought to myself over these past years, you know, he would never be a lover

I mean he's barely been to Europe, you know. He just likes his study. He likes the study. And that's biology truly. It's not anything like your parents raised you. They're, you know, it's so interesting. When my book on this came out, why him, why are my editor for the book called me up, he had just read the first draft.

He said, you know, Helen, I finally understand my son. And my editor was very high, you know, Helen, I finally understand my son. Yeah. And my editor was very high explorer dopamine, was taking obviously, taking curious creatives, spontaneous energetic, but his son was the high serotonin. Uh-huh. He wanted to stay home and he was a cautious kid.

He didn't want to go out on all these adventures that his father wanted to go on. And he said, I love my son, but I never understood him until now. Right. You just got it that way. Hey, that, that make me who knows if it's because of the way he raised him or if it's because. Oh, it's it's because it's, I think he's a high serotonin kid. Yeah, just biology. I mean, I've got my, you could look at regular brain. You measure their brains, right? Yes, I did. And that's why this is my questionernaires so unusual.

I got all the data from looking at all the brain literature to make the questionnaire, but then I put two groups of people who had taken the questionnaire into the brain scanner to prove that what I was measuring with my questionnaire actually corresponded with what was in the brain. So if I were to put you into my machine, first I'd give you the questionnaire, you'd score very high on my dopamine scale, the explorer. And then when I looked at your brain, I'd see a long lot of activity in the whole dopamine pathway. I would also see activity in the brain region for empathy because that's estrogen and with verbal skills because

that's estrogen. So I would be able to see your brain and see, yes, that's why it's different from the Myers-Briggs and from all the Myers-Briggs actually is quite right in some ways, but they don't know it. For example, I don't know how much you know about the Myers-Briggs, but I'm a little bit, yeah. Well, when they're measuring the degree to which you are feeling versus thinking, what they're really measuring, they don't know it, but they're really measuring the traits of the testosterone versus estrogen system. And when they're the perceiving versus judging, P versus J, they're really measuring the traits of the dopamine versus the serotonin system. Once again, they don't know it, but that's what they're doing. You like simplified it that it sounds like.

What I did is I got the biology to it. And but then they put you in a bucket. You're either perceiving or judging. They got one thing wrong. And in fact, everybody's gotten one thing wrong. I think. I've never written about this. But I do measure it in my neuro color question. What did you get wrong?

I don't think anybody in business or in psychology or layman actually understand extroversion versus introversion. I think that Isabel Myers had it right of Myers and Brexit in that it's where you get your energy. Now, I'm an introvert. I get my energy from being alone. But if I go into a party, I'm talkative, I'm laughing, I can be the life of the party, et cetera, et cetera. And what they do is they confuse introverts with sort of wall flowers and exavers with sort of the life of the party. But I think they're two separate scales,

the degree to which you get your energy, which is interversion versus extroversion, and a whole second scale, which is outgoing versus reserve now. I am an outgoing introvert. Yeah, this is a whole new thing. I think my brain scanning partner is a reserved extrovert. Yeah, this is a whole new thing. I think that my brain scanning partner is a reserved extrovert. She asked to have people around. The people constantly going in and out of her house, there's dogs, there's cats, there's people, there's you name it, there's people. But she's reserved around people. That's so interesting. That makes sense. It's too simple

to say intro, because I love being alone, but I'm an extrovert, but yeah, I need I need my alone time Mm-hmm. Because around people all the time, but I get energy from people I think yeah, and Myers breaks have that wrong And I think the other thing that they've got wrong is putting you in a bucket because we're all a combination of all them It's the matter of degree now my boyfriend is particularly high on the dopamine and the testosterone skills But he's got some serotonin in him Myers-Briggs would not pick that up Okay, and that serotonin in them. Myers-Briggs would not pick that up. Okay. And that serotonin in them has been valuable.

I mean, he makes the plans. He actually likes it. I keep on apologizing. Oh, I'm so sorry. I never get a slow teller on my never-do-do. He likes it though. He needs to know that it's happening that you have plans to go. Maybe he always looking at it.

I mean, my mom has had a very similar, like, he loves the planning and doing it. So he appreciates it. I want to talk to you about rejection, because you talk about the most painful, you say it's the most painful experience a human can endure, and I agree. Can we talk about that a little bit, the phases of rejection and what happens in romantic love and getting rejected? So, after I put my first group of people into the brain scanner who were happily in love and I got a lot of press and I said, you know Helen, that's really not very important. What's really important is to find out what happens when you've been rejected in love.

I mean that's when people murder or commit suicide or slip into clinical depression or stalk, I mean if I'm going to make any contribution on this planet it's going to be among people who are rejected in love. So we put 15 people into the scanner and we found activity in a lot of brain regions. Among them, three brain regions linked with craving, the basic brain region linked with addiction, it's an addiction. Yeah, you become addicted to the obsessed, right? And certainly also the brain region linked with feelings of intense, romantic love.

I mean, you don't stop loving somebody because they dumped you. In fact, you can love more. Right. And a brain region linked with feelings of deep attachment, of course, and a brain region linked with physical pain. Not only the anxiety that goes along with physical pain, but a brain region that also becomes active

when you have tooth pain. But you go to the dentist, the tooth pain's gone. A week later, you've forgotten it. You don't forget it go on a week later, you forgot it. You don't forget it somebody a week after they've dumped you. You can go on for months or years. So basically this, you know, when I was writing my book on that, why do we love? I thought to myself, why do we go through this? I mean, why isn't it easier to break up?

I mean, everybody gets dumped. And I thought to myself, well, you know, look at what you're losing. I mean, you're not only losing your daily routines, your daily habits, somebody to make love to and laugh with, but you can't be losing your children or the dog or the house and economic problems. And, you know, where do you go at Christmas or Ponyco or wherever? I mean, you know, I mean, at Christmas or Pondicle or wherever I mean you know I mean You lose a radio and and company. Yeah, you absolutely you can lose friends. You can lose neighbors You can lose a lot, but what you're really losing is a reproductive partner

You've lost your opportunity to send your DNA on with this individual and if you've already had children with the person You're losing a parent What if you don't want a children? what if you're older and you still hurts? It always hurts it always hurts. I mean, you know, it always hurts. It always is so painful And it but it is a process. I mean Psychiatrist say this is not my work psychiatrist say that You know the first thing is the protest stage. You just try to win the person back Mm-hmm

You know you can try to seduce. You can try and sult them. You walk in a cell and never see you again. You have a big drama. You walk out, 10 minutes later, you're back to do it again. It's an obsession. And you're trying to win the person back. You can seduce. You can try and make them jealous. You can do a lot of things. And then after a while, you just flat out out give up. And that's the second stage. You move from protest to resignation. And then you sort of slump into the bed and you just lie there and you cry or you drink too much, you drive too fast, you hold up and watch TV. And after a while, that begins to fade and you move into recovery. So it really is a whole pattern.

But you know, men and women do it somewhat differently. Women try to negotiate a great deal. Whereas men will try to make a woman jealous or go out and not get another relationship almost immediately to try to make the person jealous. So they'll do it somewhat differently. But is it true you think that men do it like that but then they feel it later?

differently. But is it true you think that men do it like that, but then they feel it later? I saw just as much sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about it as much. Women talk about it too much. I agree. And what they're doing then is retraumatizing. I mean, it's something you do want to talk about it to a point. But after a while, you need to stop talking about it because every time you raise the issue again with friends and family, you're re-traumatizing yourself. You're reliving it. And that happened to me once with this guy. I mean, it was ridiculous.

He was constantly leaving with me. Leaving me. And finally, I said to my girlfriends, I'm not going to talk about it anymore because I'm just re-traumatizing myself. Right. It's so helpful, right? And then you heal.

Time does heal all wounds Yeah, it is true But would you think we've been able to prove that actually these rejected people the longer You get away from the moment of initial rejection the less activity there is in a brain region linked with feelings of attachment So we've been able to prove that in the brain time does heal But if women talk about it too much men often don't talk about about it enough. Right. So they don't process it. And there was this one guy, you've got to sort of build a story that you can then get rid of. And there was this one guy that left me, I could not figure out why he left. I could not figure it out. And I finally said to myself,

and I was never going to know because he was gone. So I thought, I finally said to myself, and I was never going to know because he was gone. So I finally said to myself, Helen, make it up. Just make up your story. Make up the story of why you left, what went wrong, what you did, make it up. And so that you can, once you get a story, you can throw the story out, you can bury the story. And that work, you just think about it like this. I got to this day, I don't know why I left,

but I got my story. Because you'll never know either. Because that's the thing about the apps too. You probably won't even tell me, right? If I, you know. You just appear kind of thing, yeah. I'm not going to have to. I'm going to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have spend two hours with someone and you spent 10 days obsessing about it doesn't matter make a point just move on you got to move on. Right, got to move on.

It makes sense. It makes sense. The way it's so hard to make it up. Yeah, make it up. I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist or a therapist like you are, but I, but you know, if I was on the internet and I had a really wonderful day with somebody or two wonderful days with somebody and Jesus thought it was great and then they said to me, well, I'll call you next week and then they never do.

I would think, I mean, if you really had no idea, I don't know, I mean, just off the top of my head, I guess I would say, well, maybe his girlfriend came back. Maybe it doesn't have to do with me. It doesn't have to do with you, because I tell you, we will all the time, for the number of you,

which is just too much has nothing to do with you. How could it after one day, two dates anyway, or if it does, that's the number of you'll ever know? Yeah, never know. So it's healthier though, not to beat yourself up and go to the negative. Exactly. Which is what we're wired to do.

Right, exactly. People will say, well, love is dead. You can't kill love. It's a brain system. It evolved over four million years ago. It's going to be with us. As long as we survive as the species, four million years from now, it's like the fear system or the hope system.

It's a basic brain system. We will always love. Well, I love that you've made basic brain system we will always love. Well, I love that you've made your life work out of studying love. It's been so helpful for so many people including myself. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Governor Allen Fisher.

Thank you, Governor Allen Fisher. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review where every lesson to podcast and share this with a friend or a partner. Believe me, if you got something out of this, they will too. We release two to three episodes a week, find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. It's all at Sex with Emily. If you want to ask me a question about sex dating or relationships, you can email me feedback

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