Sex With Emily - Boys, Sex and Masculinity w/ Peggy Orenstein

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

Where do men get their earliest messages about sex and intimacy? Why do they talk about banging / pounding / hitting it (like they’re at a construction site), and how does this conditioning affect your sex life – no matter your gender? Peggy Ornstein is the author of several iconic books on teens and sex, but on today’s fan favorite episode, she joins me to talk about Boys & Sex: a fascinating account of young men as they navigate hookups, porn and relationships, as told by the boys she interviewed. In this episode, you’ll learn how even in the shadow of #MeToo, boys are still confused about having mutually fulfilling sex, while still being a “man.” Listen - when it comes to masculinity, Peggy is an expert. She explains why she doesn’t love the term “toxic masculinity.” She recognizes that men get a confusing message: be dominant, but don’t be too aggressive. Reporting from the front lines of bro culture, Peggy reveals the sex conundrum that men so often find themselves in, and ways we can all evolve to have relationships that are more interesting, more erotic, and more emotionally intelligent. For More Information on Peggy Orenstein:Website | Instagram | TwitterBoys & SexGirls & Sex Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One thing you will not learn in a hookup is the skills you need to, you know, create good sex or the emotional connection you might want. That's not going to happen. You will get a warm body, you will get an adrenaline rush, and you'll get a story to tell your friends, which is in some ways the most important part of the hookup. It is, right. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation

around sex. So where do men get their earliest messages around sex and intimacy? Why do they talk about banging, pounding, hitting it? Like they're at a construction site. And how does conditioning affect your sex life? No matter your gender. Peggy Ornstein is the author of several iconic books on teens and sex, but on today's fan favorite episode, she joins me to talk about boys and sex, a fascinating account of young men as a navigate hookups, porn, and relationships, as told by the boys she interviewed.

In this episode, you'll learn how even in the shadow of me too, boys are still confused about having mutually fulfilling sex while still being a man. Listen, when it comes to masculinity, Peggy isn't expert. She explains why she doesn't love the term toxic masculinity. She recognizes that men get a confusing message. Be dominant, but don't be too aggressive. Reporting from the frontlines of Bro Culture, Peggy reveals the sex conundrum that men so often find themselves in, and ways we can all evolve to have relationships

that are more interesting, more erotic, and more emotionally intelligent. Intentions with Emily for each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. I do it, I encourage you to do the same. My intention is to help all of you, no matter your gender, learn about boys and the messages they're given about sex, so we can all have less misunderstandings, more compassion and communication, and legitimately hotter connection. Please rate and review sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show. My new article, The Top Sexness You Need to Stop Believing and My Holiday Gift Guide, is up at sexwithemle.com and check out my YouTube channel for more sex tips and advice.

If you want to ask me questions, call my hotline 559 Talk Sex or 559 825 5739. Just leave me your questions or message me at sexwithemily.com slash Ask Emily. Alright everyone, enjoy this episode. Hegey Ornstein is the author of New York Times Best Sellers, Boys and Sex. Girls and Sex Cinderella ate my daughter and waiting for Daisy, a contributing writer for the New York Times magazine and a FAR. Peggy has also written for such publications as The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, Atlantic and The New Yorker, and her TED Talk, what young women believe about their own

sexual pleasure, has been viewed over 5.6 million times. Find more of Peggy Ornstein at PeggyOrnstein.com or on Twitter at PeggyOrnstein or Instagram at PJOrnstein. What was the biggest obstacle for you to like talking boys about sex rather than girls? I mean honestly I think it was my own bias. I wrote about girls for 25 years. I wrote about girls in my room for 25 years and boys I was I was, you know, people would say, well, you should do a book about boys now after girls and sex came out. And I just started like, well,

I think that's somebody else's job. But I also realized that I'd been in kind of the trenches of young people and sex and social life at that point for like five years. And I knew the terrain really well. And so I thought, well, I don't know, maybe I could do it. And I started sort of talking to boys. And, and then the me too movement came along. And suddenly the scope of sexual misconduct became apparent. And there was a mandate to reduce sexual violence. But it also felt like a moment that was an opportunity to engage

boys, maybe for the first time in these conversations about sex and intimacy and masculinity and gender dynamics. But my big fear and my big bias was that they wouldn't say anything that, you know, I would have like whole transcripts that consisted of, uh-huh, nope, you know, right, that they don't have a reputation for chattyness. No, exactly. So the biggest surprise, I think, of even That they don't have a reputation for chattiness. No, exactly. So the biggest surprise, I think, of even more than like any specific conclusion in the book was just how much they wanted to talk, how eager they were to talk, and how really

honest and blunt they were. Because nobody ever asked them, they don't have models of it in their culture with their parents, they're involved in this like the bro culture, which you talk a lot about. Yeah. When me two happened, I was like, and everyone's like, oh, men, men, men, toxic masculinity. And I just thought, I feel so bad for these young boys. Right. And all boys, really?

Because they're like, we never learned any of this. So I love to hear that when you sat down, they actually did want to open up. The truth is, is that nobody does ask boys and there and nobody's listening to them and that they are wrestling with these issues now. I think it was a very opportune moment to do a book like this because I don't know. I mean, one of the things that was really interesting with the boys was how they were wrestling with ideas that I think maybe five or ten years ago they wouldn't have even been considering.

Well, that's thing. Timing, right? And so being able to catch them as a new generation was considering these ideas. And the whole toxic masculinity thing, I always, somebody wrote to me the other day and said, why do I always put it in quotes? And I said, well, because I don't really like to use that phrase. I don't think when you're talking to boys that it serves us very well in trying to help bring them in and help them understand and help them to examine themselves

and go forward in the best way they can. So I started using sociologists use this term precarious masculinity. And I think that's a lot better. Because I think it's still evocative of what gets triggered for guys in certain situations that makes them act in ways that are not advancing them or their partners, it's kind of less hostile. Yeah, but that's a thing. It's also hostile. So it's like, they're like, well, that's really scary. I don't mean, when they're starting to hear about it, I don't want to be that guy, but now what do I do?

And your brother also disconnects, I mean, you don't think you're after that guy. So the thing that always interested me was sort of the contradictions people live with. So with girls, it was sort of about all these new expectations that we had of girls about standing out, about shining bright, while also still hanging on to these old assumptions that we hadn't really dispensed with of being pleasing, defining yourself through your body, you know, all these other ideas, defining yourself from the outside in. And with guys, they're now living with contradictions and these new ideas and old ideas layered on top of each other. And that was kind of what interested me to examine.

So, you know, they saw themselves as progressive. A lot of them, they thought, you know, girls were deserving of their place in the classroom. They weren't saying like, girls can't do math. Girls can't be president. That was all gone. They thought girls could be leaders all that. But yet when I would ask them like, what's the ideal guy? They would still start

channeling 1955. And it would still be about dominance, aggression, athleticism, wealth, sexual conquest, and the body count being the kind of measure of the man and using partners as disposable regardless of how you feel about that, regardless of how they feel about that, and emotional suppression. All those things that they call it the man box or whatever you want to call it, that simultaneously, disconnect, I mean, boys were talking to me all the time about training themselves not to feel,

or putting a wall up, and the only thing they were allowed were happiness and anger, that kind of thing. And we know that there can be real rewards of embodying or embracing those rigid norms. It turns out you can be president by embracing those norms. Exactly. Right? Yes. So there are models that show boys that you can be very successful with that.

But it comes at a huge cost. We know that guys who cling more to those norms are, yes, they're more likely to harass assault bully, but they're also more likely to be the victims of violence. They're more likely to be in car accidents, to binge drink, to be depressed, to die by suicide, to have fewer friends, to be lonely. I mean, it's not a pretty picture. No.

A lot of conversations started with, I've never talked to anybody about this before, or saying at the end that, you know, it was cathartic, or it was like therapy, or it feels like it. Some ways you would say, so, when are we going to have another interview? And, you know, some of them are going to interview, or pay the... They love it, but it also hurts my heart. I know. Like, where do they go now? I'm going to go back to them shutting down emotionally

because I think that's so interesting. It's about, you say like it's about age five or six, something happens, it could be even younger, like even pre-memory, but they're like, you have to repress these emotions. You can't, it's not okay to feel. Can you explain the repetition of them saying like, yeah, what the experience was for them at those ages?

They kind of explained to you the shutting down, they kind of remembered it. Something that they would talk about building a wall, they would talk about being trained not to feel, they talk about a lot of messages from their fathers. And what was interesting about that was that, yeah, there were some guys who said, my dad told me to man up, not be a little bitch,

you know, that kind of thing. But that wasn't most of them, for most of them, they would say, my dad wasn't sexist, my dad wasn't homophobic. I didn't learn that, you know, they used the phrase toxic. They all knew that phrase toxic masculinity from him. But I did learn that stunted side of masculinity because he was not a guy who'd talk about emotions. He was more of a sign walk away kind of a guy than the guy who kind of guy who'd asked what was going on. And so I learned not to have those conversations from him. So there was the subtler ways that they would learn that too.

And not just from their deaths. There's research when you say pre-memory. There's research that shows that mothers speak with less emotional range and use less emotional language with their infant boys than with their infant girls. And they over attribute their boys responses as in infants to anger. And there's a classic study that shows adults watch a video of an infant being startled by a jack in the box.

And if they're told in advance that the baby is a boy, whether or not that's true, baby's wearing a diaper, we don't think the baby is. They are more likely to attribute the baby's response to the jack in the box as anger as opposed to fear or Surprise or anything else and so there's a way that from the beginning Boys first of all live in a more impoverished emotional environment and also learn that all of those that whole bucket of emotions that involves sadness grief pain betrayal frustration

You know all gets poured into the funnel of anger. And we can see in the culture the impact of that across the board. Yeah. What compareants do now? Did anything, how can they talk to their kids about masculinity? Well, I think there's a, you know, there's a number of things. There's always something in the news we can talk about, you know, There's always something that we can bring up. If you have little boys still, to be able to name their emotions is super important. So to say, it seems like you're sad,

or wow, that must be frustrating, or when they are going straight to anger, taking a step back and trying to figure out what's underneath that anger, so you can name that for them. And particularly if men in their lives can do that, whether it's their dad or whoever the man in their life is, to be able to speak with compassion and connection to boys and listen to them and model that as a guy, hugely important.

And for older boys, I was thinking about the other day, like Kobe Bryant's death, super tragic, horrible thing. I mean, there was a bunch of things that you could talk about relating to that. One of them is the outpouring of grief by a don't-man. And what that looked like and how profound it was. And why is it that the only time that men get to express that is when something this tragic in public happens? And then it's a care. And it's a force. And it's a force. And it's a force. And it's a lot about sports in your book, and athleticism, and how, happens. And sports, so safe. And it's sports. Because you talk a lot about sports

in your book and athleticism and how, yeah. And so that was a safe. It was, there was a lot that was made it's safe for them to express emotion around that. So if you're just talking to your teenage boy about that, they can have a conversation around like, why is that safe? Why is that okay?

What other situations would you be able to cry? Why not, what does that mean about guys? I mean, there's a whole series of conversations you can have around something like that in the news. Right. No, that's true. That's a great example of it because it's so true that they, yeah, sports made it safe. I didn't even thought about that, but it's very true. And I mean, there's some more complicated conversations you can have to around the Kobe Bryant, death around assault and around race and around very a number of things. There's like, it's trotful.

Yeah, there are so many conversations that yields that are really valuable and you just have this moment where you can step in and have them. So it's like sports is kind of like an outlet to let out their emotion and it's also like the bro culture and the locker room. It can be a smoke screen.

I mean, those all male environments can be a crucible of change. And I talk about some ways in the book where they have been, particularly if it's coach led, where those environments can shift in really profound ways. But too often, that sports culture, while it can be fun, and it preaches that it builds character and camaraderie and brotherhood and all this stuff,

it's also a smoke screen for the worst kind of bro culture and an us against them mentality, homophobia, misogyny, bonding, asserting your heterosexuality and bonding is meant through the control of female bodies. So what do they say when they're talking about sex in the locker room, right? They hit that, they tapped that, they bang, they pound, they hammer, they pipe that. It's like, it's like they went to a construction site, right? It's not like, you know, it's not an act of intimacy. And so the guys that I was talking to, it's not like they were all like, and that's cool, you know, like they didn't think it would, like, no. And I think a lot, you know, a lot

of guys don't. They wanted to speak up. They didn't know how to speak up. One guy talks about trying to speak up and being shot down and then his friend continues to try and you know, when it happens again. And he doesn't. And he said, you know, I just watched my friend and nobody, you know, the guys weren't listening to him anymore. He lost all his social capital. And here I had buckets of it. And I wasn't spending it. And, you know, I don't know what to do because I don't want to have to choose between my dignity and these guys, but how do I make it so I don't have to choose. And Michael Thompson, who's a psychologist who writes about boys has said that it's silence in the face of cruelty and misogyny in which boys become

men. And I thought about that a lot in those situations. And what boys, not only what they did say and did do, but what they couldn't do and couldn't say and all of that and how that was shaping who they were. Did you see in talking to them, would they ask you and say, well, what could I do now? How could I change this? There was it more like, this is just how it is. So when I was interviewing them, I would say not so much, because it wasn't my role. But as I've gone around with the book, like I just the other day had a division one athlete come up to me at a reading and say, so what do I do?

Like I want to stop this and what do I do? And I, you know, I started to well, in a signing line at a reading, hard for me to give you the full answer. But he emailed me later. And I just, you know, I gave him a bunch of reading, hard for me to give you the full answer, but he emailed me later and I just, you know, I gave him a bunch of resources, a bunch of ideas about like, it depends. It depends on is your coach, somebody who you can approach and talk to about this, who might be open to bringing some programming and that would change the culture of the locker room? That would be thing one. Maybe he is, maybe he's not. If he's not,

then like, how could you reach out to other people who you feel would be on your team that are on your team? And how could you, you know, what kind of things could you do that would sort of social norm some of this stuff, you know, to change it? If there's one guy who's really a major perpetrator and you're friendly with him, are there ways to take him aside when it's not a threatening time and just like speak your piece and he's going to push back and say, what do you know, do I need to get you a camp on? You know, whatever. And you can say that, but I'm still going to tell you this is how I feel.

I just wanted to let you know, I'm not okay with this. And okay, now let's go back and play our video game or whatever. Right. Exactly. How you just like some different options from a more collective option to a more individual option. So we're just not teaching these kids even, can we basic even,

basic communication skills? Why don't we teach you that in schools or what you need some other? So like if you start there, you're starting with these basic communication skills that nobody has talked to kids about. Like when you're wondering like how they can't have conversations around consent or why they don't know what positive sexuality is,

geez, they can't even get here. Right. Like after spending so much time with girls, 25 years of girls, now you're like, oh God, now here I am with men, that must have been, and boys, that must have been such an interesting contradiction, an interesting contradiction, but were there contradictions when you sat down,

a contrast, and then when you sat down, was there anything that you kept hearing from boys that was just like, I don't know, that must have been, a moment where you're like wow this makes so much sense to tell my girls Yeah, I did actually the actually the the one place of overlap real overlap in both books is the chapter on hookup culture Yeah, and they're both and they're the same and they're different and so much of the girl book and you know I always say my my job is not to tell young people the context in which they're supposed to have sex that's not my role. But to demystify that the hook up culture and to give them a sense of what you are likely and not likely to get from those sorts of encounters.

I think it's really helpful for them in understanding their choices and their results and also understanding how it vastly over states what other people are doing and gives you false ideas about what's happening. So give an example of that. Some of the hook up culture stuff that seemed like it was that was sort of the same. Well, so this, you know, obviously what's the same is that they're both immersed in this culture and that this hook up culture is telling them that, you know, drunk to touch sex is the ideal. Still. Let's see if we saw it.

I know. Blackout. Yeah, right. You remember. You did it. You haven't gone out unless you blacked out. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that was really, I still think about that from your girl's book. How you kept saying like, like, because then I started seeing it everywhere about how these girls, yeah, they're all just blacked out. And again, having nieces at that age, it was just like listening to them saying, yeah, I was wasted. And how we're kind of sex being that situation. And what was the same too was that, well, girls had a lot more anger and betrayal around hookup culture. Click-up culture tends to teach kids what they don't want. That tends to be the big lesson of hookup culture. But the girls would express a lot of anger and a lot of betrayal.

And some of them were telling me that they were into it too. But you know, when it was going wrong, the boys didn't express that so much, but it was really clear that it wasn't serving them either. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that.

And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell me more about that. And they would tell things like one of the guys said, it's like two people having two distinct experiences. And there's not a lot of eye contact. There's not a lot of communication. And it's like you're acting vulnerable without being vulnerable, which with somebody that you don't know very well and don't care about very much. So he said, you know, I don't know that it's always

a problem necessarily, which one good are you? I mean, he said, it's not, he said, it's odd and it's not really fun. Well, because they don't have anything to compare to either like this is their first experience. Yeah. So it seems like, you know, the, the, the, the, the valuation is wrong. So they're thinking what you want is experience and that that's what gets you experience. What you want is, you know, the, as opposed to like wanting to understand your body

Wanting greater humanity and your partner wanting to have something reciprocal and enjoyable and you know that Collaborative, you know none of that is almost like a sportsman tell like the more runs I do like if it's skiing like the more Hills like a down or more people are being the more people that it's really gonna and And I'll be a better lover or better. And you're not one of the things that I always say is one thing you will not learn in a hookup is the skills you need to create good sex or the emotional connection you might want. That's not gonna happen.

You will get a warm body, you will get an adrenaline rush and you'll get a story to tell your friends, which is in some ways the most important part of the hookup. It is, right. Right, and so one of the hookup. It is, right? Right. And so one of the things that I talked about a lot in the girl book was like the relevance of female orgasm in a hookup.

It relevance. Yeah, it doesn't even come up. Right. It's not a thing. No. It's nice if it were to happen. That would be certainly not a bad thing, but nobody's expecting it.

No. It's not what it's saying. That's not what you're there for. That's not what it does. And so I was interested in talking to guys about that. And it turned out that, yeah, they would say, in a relationship, the orgasm gap shrinks a lot, but in a hookup, it's huge.

And guys would say, yeah, I know it sounds bad, but I don't really care in a hookup. And. Did they even know about orgasm, though? Do they know about the plethora? Do you feel like they were educated? No. No, they know female women have orgasm, though? Do they know about the plethora? Yes. You feel like they were educated. No.

No, they know female women have orgasms, not really. And they know like conceptually an idea that there's a thing called a clitoris, but how the whole situation has to work and happen. Nothing, not. Nothing, not. Nothing, not. Not so clear. And there's a lot of misunderstanding.

And one of the misunderstandings, and this was not really about orgasm, it was about satisfaction, was that, and this was where it felt orgasm, it was about satisfaction. Yeah. Was that, and this was where it felt really interesting to have the books kind of in conversation with one another. The guys did care about female satisfaction. They just didn't define it through orgasm. So how they defined it in a hookup was, because again, it's about the invisible audience in the room. Right? It's about what you're going to go back and tell your guys, what she's going to go back and tell her girls.

So how they were measuring female satisfaction was based on penis size and stamina, mostly stamina in intercourse. Like, like how long you left? We went for two hours and she thought my penis was massive. Well, no, but it's also what she's going to tell her friends. Not what you're going gonna tell your friends. So one guy would say to me like that, he started, had gotten the habit and hook up of looking at the clock before he started intercourse

so that he would last what he can believe to be a sufficient amount of time because he said, and he said, it wasn't really even about her pleasure. It was about my ego and making sure that when she went back to her friends, she wouldn't say she was disappointed and that she would say that I was okay.

It's almost like a Yelp review for sex. So the girls then are colluding in that because they're going back and saying, yeah, it was great. He had a big dick or it was great. He lasted for 10 minutes, but then they're not saying, and by the way, I didn't have an orgasm and that's not what gets me off, you know, or they were faking. Yeah, they're faking. And that's the other thing was that guys vastly overestimate girls orgasms and hookups.

So they do think the girls are having orgasms, and that's sometimes because they don't know what that is, and it's sometimes because the girls are faking. Yeah. So there's like a whole dynamic that's at play that undermines any communication and undermines mutual satisfaction and undermines connection. So the other part in terms of connection is that after a hookup you're supposed to be less friendly than before. So although what hookup culture means and obviously casual sex is always adjusted.

But hookup culture is the idea that casual sex is always interested. Cache-sax, yeah. But hook-up culture is the idea that sexual sex is the normalized path to a relationship, even though most hook-ups don't lead to a relationship. And that's partly because you're supposed to be less friendly afterwards. So guys would talk about like averting their eyes if they saw a girl that they'd hooked up with. And I would go like, well, why would you do that?

And he said, well, the guy that I was saying is said, well, you don't know what they're thinking. And maybe they're thinking it was just something that happened at a party. And then you're the idiot if you say, you know, hi, like if you're like think it was something, like they think that then you think it was something more. And you don't want to be in that position.

So you just divert your eyes to avoid the whole thing. And I said, so you'd rather avert your eyes than take the tiny risk of saying hello to the person that you made out with last night or sex with last night or whatever you did last night. And where there might be the possibility then that you could have the relationship that you say you want. And you just went, yeah, that's right. That's right. And it's this whole like vulnerable, right? But they don't want to. Yes. And that's what he said. He said you don't want then that that's why I said again Like I did a search at one point of how many times people said vulnerable on this book and it was so many like I

The Words well, it's really what I think is at the heart like even beyond sex It's vulnerability. We're all afraid of being hurt not being loved right and and the the taboo against it for guys and Embracing it and rejecting it embracing it, and rejecting it, and denying it, and avoiding it, is threaded all the way all the time through the book. And Brunei Brown says that emotional vulnerabilities, the secret sauce that holds relationships together. So if they can't be vulnerable, or they feel a taboooo against it or they feel denied it as guys, then we are denying the very thing they need to have the mutually gratifying, personally fulfilling

relationships that we want young people to have. Right, so essentially we're saying they're never going to get there unless they learn to experience this range of emotions and learning to be vulnerable in all areas that we like. And have the true courage. The true courage, which is the courage to like see the other person and try to connect with them, you know. So it's and we're not setting them up for that in this in college was there any surprises

or was there any one that was like they were in a healthy relationship or some case for sure or or guys who were coming out the other side of that culture a little bit older and we're thinking about things in a different way. There's one guy that I talk about. It's actually a great, there's this great scene in that hookup chapter that this guy who we call himself a feminist fuck boy, which I loved. Some people call that guy a soft boy or something like that. But he was somebody who, you know, he talked to a game of being a egalitarian guy. He was very conscious of consent. But he also treated his partners as disposable.

And he also used the skewed ratio of girls to guys on campus that advantaged guys and allowed them to call the shots in what was going to happen. He used that and he knew he was using that to get, you know, what, sleep with as many girls as he could. When I met him, he was getting to a point where he was saying that he was starting to think about that and think that maybe that was not serving him so well. So he was thinking about that and then I talked to him about a year later and we were talking about where he was thinking about that. And then I talked to him about a year later and we were talking about where he was at.

And while we were talking, this other boy who was a senior in high school and was looking at colleges, where he'd been accepted, deciding where he was gonna go, texted me from one of the campuses and he said, you know, something like WTF with hookup culture. It's like an orgy down here. Do I just go to bone town and, you know,

forget about emotions? I mean, in case you were wondering how they spoke to me. No, I get it. No, perfect. That's how they yeah right and he was like and worried about emotional connection later or do I just forget about that in part entirely and so I read that text to the feminist fuck boy guy who's name was Wyatt and said what do you have to say to Nate what should I tell him and they ended up having this conversation through me. Oh wow. And talking about like, you know, being your authentic self and how if you try to be somebody or not, it's going to kill you. And there's lots of people who have a different idea on campus about what they want.

They don't participate in that. You don't have to. And Nate then texted me back and said, that's just what I needed to hear. Thank you. And little heart emoji. I love it. And I know because I state he's somebody that I stay in touch with that that conversation supported him in being the guy he wanted

to be as he went away to college when he finally chose where he was going to go. And that he is the guy he wants to be. He's been able to maintain his integrity in that way and his personal idea, ideals. And I thought, you know, those guys are strangers to one another. They never met. They don't know each other's real names. And they barely know me, you know, I'm really a stranger. But what if they could talk like that to boys and men in their real lives? What if they could have those kind of connected, deep conversations?

I know. I was just trying to think of like, could there be some kind of chat for Facebook group? I mean, maybe this exists. And there are more. Yeah, there's more of that. There's more of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even like in another scene in that chapter, I sit down with a group of guys and girls together. And it's after the day after the party, the day after the night before. And we

have a conversation about all of this. And they were so amazed by what the other sex said. And then at the end, we talked for like an hour and a half, two hours, and I got up to leave and they, you know, they said, can we do this again next week? And I was like, yes, but not with me, because I'm an adult and don't live in the dorm. Exactly. It's like a little group.

But just the taste of it. Just the idea. They were like taste of it. Just the idea. They were like, wow, we had no idea. And it was, but that was like a co-ed group too. And that, yeah, that was really interesting. Oh, that's, yeah. That is amazing. It was the only time I'd sat down with a co-ed group.

And they were like, we want to do this again. And they were, how old they were in college? They were, uh, 18, 19, they were freshman in college. Yeah. That's what they need. It has to be like a required campuses right now. There's a lot of work to do here. Yeah, it's really the hookup culture thing that we're going on now since when did they first coin that like early 2000s? I was in the late 90s. Yeah, it just seems like every one year there was like five books that came out and the hookup culture

and it was just like is that still happening and we just see snow. It's so not satisfying. Yeah, it's entrenched. It's absolutely. And I it's my favorite book on it is American Hook Up. By Lisa Wade, I just think it's so smart. It is. Yeah, I mean, that is one of them. It's true. And I think setting it up before they get into college, yeah, how do we do that? Like in orientation, I know that.

Well, but it needs to go well before college because now what has happened, what I think has has changed is that that culture has drifted downward so that it's now really prevalent on high school campuses as well. And when they talk about a hook up in high school, they're usually not talking about intercourse, but they're still talking about a kind of detached experience, whatever is in that experience, a disconnected detached experience that is often typically happens while wasted. Yes, I think that we need to be having those, I mean. What age, don't you think, though, it has to be?

I agree. We need to be having those, I mean. What age, don't you think that it has to be? I mean, I agree. We need to be talking about this from school. You're clitoris, you're like anatomy. It's your vulva, yeah. That's what I think it has to be anatomy, and then consent, don't let anyone touch you. Like, it's primates. I mean, you need to ask before you hug somebody,

and not letting, like, if you. Do you think all of that? Yeah, and like, if you, if your kid, you know, if gradient Nancy comes over and wants to put a big smooch on your kid, and your kid, you know, if great ant Nancy comes over and wants to put a big smooch on your kid and your kid, your four year old goes, I don't want to kiss great ant Nancy. Well great ant Nancy's just got to suck it up. You don't get to kiss because that is a consent issue.

That is bodily integrity. You know, those are really important lessons. It's not just what you don't do. It's what cannot, you know, what you are, what people don't do. Even people in your life, even people you love, even your friends, you know, just saying, can I give you a hug? It's not that big of a deal. It's not that big of a deal. And in fact, it feels so much better. And it really, it's scaffolds, it scaffolds into those more, if you, I mean, if you're coming in at 16, you can do it for sure. Right. But, and you

can say, like, there's a lot of conversations we didn't have, and I regret that, and now we're going to have them. It's harder. It's a lot of conversations we didn't have, and I regret that, and now we're gonna have them. It's harder. It's a lot easier if you've been talking about these issues openly since your child was able to speak. Exactly. We're gonna hear a quick word for our sponsors. After the break, Peggy tells me how the influx of porn has drastically changed boys' initial introduction

into sex and sexuality. I also like with porn now too, with all the boy, I mean that's a thing I get text too from like friends, sons, friends, daughters, like what do I do, you know, and it's just like it is the whole, they don't want to talk to their parents about it, but if you start young and it's just the most normal thing in the world. And also having, I mean lucky your friends kids that they have you, but there's, you can have the cool aunt or the, or the cool uncle or the, you know, the older cousin or even the older sibling that steps in and takes, you know, and does some of that. That's fine.

But yeah, the porn conversation. I mean, that's what the reason is. That's not about porn, but I mean, because that's why we got to start early, because they're seeing it at 9 and 10. Right. I mean, because that's why we got to start early because they're seeing it at nine and ten. And we can. Well, I just was talking to somebody whose daughter at 12 got busted for her. She and some other girls were sending really degrading and violent hardcore images to one another on text and to people who did not ask to have those sent to them. So there were legal issues, there were consent issues. But more than that, I was talking about it with my daughter, who's 16, and I said, and

this was another opportunity for me to have a conversation with her. I was just saying, it's such a bummer. Like you're 12 years old, and that's what you're seeing about sex. What were they supposed to say? They give photos to that. Not just naked, but like really graphic and violent. Right. And that's the thing that we have to realize. It's not like they're sending playboy centerfolds to each other.

If you don't know what today's porn looks like, you need to look at it because what has changed. I like pomegranate just like that kind of. Or like, you know, a woman with being gagged by a penis with mascara running down her tears. Right, yes. Okay, I mean, you're seeing that when you're a 12 year old girl? That sucks. I know. That's so disturbing.

That sucks. Yeah, it sucks. I mean, it's just like, now you can't see that. Now that's in your, you know, your head, I mean, it's just sad. And it is, it always reminds me of one of the guys who said to me, I mean, you know, the whole porn conversation, and we'll have that in a second, but one guy just kind of, and he wasn't, this was a guy who was pretty like into hook-up scene, and into all this stuff, and he just went, but, you know, I feel like the thing with porn is that it's made it for our generation like, just the natural process of discovering sex without preconceived notions

of what it is. He said, that's just been fucked for us by porn. And that was like the saddest thing to me of all, like that you just don't get to find it out without these prepackaged ideas being fed into your head. That's just sad. That is really sad, because you can't unsee any of it. So of course, you think that that's what sex is going to be. Or it afforts you. It absolutely affects you. So all saying all that, I always want to say, and I know that you know this, that curiosity about sex

is normal, masturbation, yay, everybody should be doing it, as much as possible. What's different is that, and we could debate for adults whether there's such a thing as ethical, feminist, or queer, or all these other kinds of things. Some people say yes, some people say no, whatever. That's all behind a paywall. That's not what kids are looking at. What we're talking about is that the paywall got dropped by Pornhub in 2007, basically.

And so that allowed you to get access anything anonymously for free It was 2007 at any time On your smartphone and that's what changed and so that version of porn shows kids over and over Sex is something that men do to women that female pleasure is a performance and really like wildly Distorted women that female pleasure is a performance and really like wildly distorted. Not for it. Yeah. For not going to show up with three friends. Nope, she's not. And start just screaming the second you just doesn't work that way.

No, it doesn't work that way, right? And and that's what they see and when we're not talking to them, when they're not getting anything in school, when there's nothing countering that narrative about what sex actually is, what's real, what's not real, what's missing, sensuality, playfulness, messiness, passion. All these things. Passion, romance, intimacy. Any of it, intimacy.

When we're not talking about any of that with them, this is their sex educator. This is where you are you porn. Right. It's you or you, thank you very much. It's you or you porn. That's a very good line. You do that.

And thank you. I use your line time. I use your line time. I use your line time. I use your line time. I use your line time. And that's what they've taken to the bedroom. And they, I mean, the boys were,

one of the things they most wanted to talk about. Do they know it's not real? You say, well, they do when they don't. Because they don't know what, they're like, oh, I hear what you're saying. But I don't know what else they, I mean're they were they responded in a lot of different ways So some guys had said I'm kind of done with this because I don't like what it's doing to my fantasy life I don't know what it's doing to my mind. How old were the boys that said that they were done with it?

Well, one of them was a senior in high school Okay, and he said what did it for him was that he was Sitting in class one day and he looked over at the girl next to him And he started wondering what she was gonna look what she would look like with come on her face Oh, like and he said it wasn't even like he was thinking What would it be like to kiss her? What would it be like to see her naked? Nothing it was like what would she look like with come on? I mean he just went oh shit and like he said that's it I got gotta stop this.

Wow. And so that was like a kind of deep thing. I love the stuff over there. I wish she would like go to his friends that day and you know, for work, you know what? Well, and they would say, like there were guys, you know, one guy said to me that there was a guy on his crew team who was legendary

because he had stopped using porn and they said, well, what do you do? And he said, I use my imagination. And the other guys were just like, how do you do that? Like it wasn't even a thing. If you grew up after 2007 with porn hub, it wasn't even really a thing. So, you know, part of it was like,

you're not gonna get rid of the porn, but like, can we broaden their idea of what you might. Let's just say exactly how you might approach masturbation that might not only be more pleasure. I mean, and distinguishing between what's super arousing and what's actually pleasurable and wanted and desirable, that was one thing I talked a lot about. What's that means?

Yeah, let's talk about that. Well, like, so I looked at, you know, Emily Nagaski's where that's, so she's fantastic, right? The book, Come As You Are, is like a Bible. And she talks about genital non-concordance, which is that you can be aroused by something that the body will do with the body will do. So if the body thinks that something sexual is a foot, it will react, it will lubricate, it will get an erection, even if you're thinking, Ick, right? Because something, and that's why a woman can orgasm during a rape.

Or, you know, you can get an erection from something that you find repugnant. And in fact, what Emily will say is that there's a way that when you find something, both objectionable and sexual, that it actually will turbocharge arousal. Because you're getting all the dopamine,

all the spikes, all the spikes. Yeah, because there's like all this stuff going on in your brain and make it actually more arousing than something that's desirable. Sometimes the guys would talk about seeing stuff that was like stuff that you would never even think of. You know, like really off the charts, it would be arousing to them and they would be disturbed by the fact that it was arousing to them.

And so I think understanding some basic aspects of physiology and genital non-concordance and that whole thing is really important when you're going into a porn world. So you can kind of say, oh, there's a reason why I feel like I'm not into this, but my body's going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can I can Understand that better and maybe respond to it differently. So what happens Oh now is though we talk about the general non-concordances that they're actually seeing it and maybe it's something like Maybe the first time I do see a gang bang or choking and there are and they think it but then it becomes And then the next time in the next I think I skip right over it

It can happen matter of seconds or a few times. So what we're saying is to even identify that moment in time, hopefully before it happens, is useful. And it is. Because they also, it's not saying, it's not a shaming blaming thing. It's just saying, look, this is how this works. How do you think about this? And then there was a whole, another set of guys, of course, who said, and there was a small

subset of guys who felt really deeply harmed and I can't say whether it was a chicken and the egg thing, you know, in terms of their ponies, but I can say that they never talked to an adult before about it and that they were struggling and they wanted to talk to somebody about it. And then there was a part of it, the part that they felt harmed. They felt or they felt that it had skewed their ideas of sex. They felt they were being aroused by things they didn't want to be aroused by.

They felt that it had taught them negative lessons. They felt that it had shaped that it I mean, there's some research that shows that guys who are regular porn users are more likely to believe those images are true, more likely to want to act them on the bedroom. And they're more likely to they're less satisfied with their partnered experiences, with their own performance, with their partner's bodies. And so it was some of that kind of thing, like a boy who said that he had, he said, I don't know if it's totally porn driven, but I think it certainly made a difference that

I watched all this porn that I've developed, a very, very specific idea of a female body that turns me on. And so when I'm with my girlfriend, and she doesn't, you know, she's saying she doesn't feel good about her body in some way. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm saying to her, no, no, I love your body, but I said privately, I'm thinking, but I wish your nipples were a little darker and a little larger, because that's really what I get off on when I'm looking at the point, so he said it just doesn't feel good to me. Right. He doesn't know how to undo it because that's all he's really. And he doesn't know like who knows if that's driven by porn or not. I can't say. It must be though. Right. I mean, how else would he have had these? That's what he says. That's what he says. And so, you know, if that kind of thing, he was just pondering that like, I don't know what kind of

impact this had on me. I think I feel harmed by it. I can't say whether that's what harm, you know, that is the reason for that or not. But I can say he wasn't talking to anybody about it. That no, there was no adult that he could ask any questions about that. And then the other bunch of boys were guys who would say like,

I know it's not real. I know the difference between fantasy and reality. And I think really because you've never actually like kissed a girl. Right. How would you never say anyone naked? You never say anybody naked. How would you do it right?

And we know the research that that's not true, that the way media works, porn or, and we have, I mean mainstream media, it's really easy to get down the rabbit hole to porn conversation. Mainstream media is a big issue, too, obviously. Yes. How media works is that it affects our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs and behavior, even

when we think it doesn't. And especially when we think it doesn't, which is why the Russians used media to undermine our democracy because it works. That's why advertising is effective. It's so true. So even when you're saying, I know that's not real. I know that the media doesn't affect me. It affects other people.

Whether it's porn, whether it's mainstream media, whatever it is, that's not true. No. That's intellectual, but it's affecting your neuropath ways, your brain, what's your rousing to you. Right. You can't. And you see things like with mainstream media, I talk about a study out of University of Massachusetts where they showed college guys, they divided them into two groups, right, and they showed one group like whatever, cartoons or something.

And the other group they showed and edited together real of sex scenes from our rated movies, our rated movies, not excellent, not porn. And they said, and they were all scenes that had been judged to include things that were degrading to women. But they were not violent. So it was like a male satisfaction, but not female satisfaction, or some kind of stripping thing that was where there was male domination and female submission. Those were the things. And when they afterwards, they had the guys read all of them, read one account of stranger rape and one account of acquaintance rape. And they had the guys read all of them read one account of stranger rape and one account of acquaintance rape. And they reacted the same way to the stranger rape. That was wrong. But the acquaintance rape, the guys who just watched the real of the R-rated movie stuff, were much more likely to say that the woman secretly wanted what happened and got what she deserved and

enjoyed it. And that held steady regardless of their attitudes towards sex, regardless of their attitudes towards porn, regardless of their attitudes towards gender and feminism. It was, it affected them immediately, and they call it a spillover effect of media. So there's a spillover effect of this stuff. Absolutely. I mean, how do they even,

so if there is this spillover, I mean, of course, if that's all they're seeing, okay, so going back to the point If that's all they're seeing and then also you talked to women about porn I mean your book was like if it's same thing a part was still around you did your book, right? Not yes Yes, yes, yes, it was and and but the girls tended to look at it as a manual for what guys wanted They're like so they're making the noises and they're moving in the surveys. Yeah, and the body and feeling a lot of body and adequacy.

And the boys felt a lot of body and adequacy around it too. But the girls felt, I think, even more. So what are the boys saying that they look, because the example of saying, like, your nipples this way, there's a lot more of that I know in the book too, about what boys are actually finding a track now they might not have before. And it's scenarios. I feel like the choking thing comes

a lot, I get a lot of cars as soon as you're like. So that's obviously that is straight out of porn. Straight out of porn. And that is, I mean that 15 years ago. Yeah, and that is a really huge change in American sexual behavior that that has shot up, anal sex has shot up. anal, sporting.

Yeah, that was not a thing. No, none of these things were things. And now there are things every day, there are things now. So those, they don't feel good. If that woman things were things. And now there are things every day, there are things now. So those, they don't feel good. If they haven't, we wouldn't think they have to do it. Maybe it feels good,

but you don't have to do it. Maybe it does, maybe it, but it's looking at the, what I was always looking at was like the motivation and the experience and the nature of the experience. So like when you look at anal sex, there was a survey of kids 16 to 18 in England about anal sex.

And what came out of it was that it was something that the guys were doing not as an active intimacy with a partner but as a competition with other guys. They thought that girls would have to be coerced into it and that they could be coerced into it. The girls reported finding it painful, not surprisingly. And both sexes, this was a kind of interesting part, blamed that on the girls, saying that they couldn't relax, they were naive, they were flawed.

You know? Well women were so easy, we always take the responsibility. We do blame ourselves, but especially with anal, I could see that. But we're talking about high school students. So the rates among high school students are still very quite low, but they're much higher than they were. And college students, I know.

And college students, I mean, the rates among college students are significantly higher than they used to be. And again, maybe that's fine. Maybe that's about experimentation. Maybe that's about pleasure. If that's true, that's fine. But we know that when on the largest survey of American sexual behavior, when anal sex is included, that 70% of women report pain in their sexual encounters. Because they're not doing it right. They're not doing it right. They don't know. Again, we don't educate around that. Whether we're talking about

So, right, they don't know because again, we don't educate around that. Whether we're talking about two people with penises having anal sex or anal play or people with a penis and people with a vagina, we don't discuss or evolve. We don't discuss the correct way that would make that a pleasurable experience. That's super taboo in sex. And that's one of the, I don't the, if you watch the movie Sex Education, I mean, not the movie, the Netflix. I'm on season two, episode three.

So in season two, I don't know if you've gotten to the part yet, but they end up having a whole conversation about preparation for anal sex. I heard it was done about, I haven't seen it yet though. It's very good. It's very good.

And it really shows a way to do that that is perfectly appropriate. Right. That's, yeah. I mean, I did you say, yeah, I was guessing that. Which is a nice scene like encouraging. It's not really, we talk about in the show a lot. Yeah, and it's not about like encouraging a behavior or saying, hey, go do this or anything,

but it's about understanding human sexual behavior in a positive way. So whatever you choose to do, you will be doing it well and pleasurably and not hurting the other partner and thinking that that's okay. That's just people to show. Well, that's the other thing about porn where I believe is that like they don't show the warm. They don't show the Louvre. They don't show the breathing, the consent. And you're just it goes right. Look how easily it goes in easily. There's no mess. There's no fuss. It feels good immediately. There's no pain and that's you know, that's what That's what they're seeing. They're seeing from very young ages in the porn which I do believe in feel like I do believe in porn addiction I'm like, I don't even need to label it, but there is a porn problem. Right. There was a porn challenge right now that is happening Especially if young men and women that's that's all that they're seeing with with sex How could it not impact their brain? And then we're not having those conversations.

Nobody's having those conversations. You've got this sex educator right there. And mainstream media too. I mean, mainstream media is not giving them healthy messages. Either, and we understand that with girls, we understand that with, you know, pretty broadly, we understand now that there are a lot of harmful messages bombarding girls about women and about sex in the media. And we, as parents, teachers, activists,

whatever, therapists, we do a lot to help girls have a more critical lens so that they can resist some of that. We don't say anything to boys. Nothing to boys. Nothing to boys. They've learned nothing about this. Nothing. And then they're in the same stew turned up hotter. And, you know, like one guy said to me,

I think music has a really big influence on how Guy's treat girls. Like, he was a high school boy. He's like, you're driving around in the car with your guys all the time and you're hearing, fuck that bitch and quitter for five, 10 times in the space of two hours. Yeah.

Of course it affects her mindset. Of course it, there we go, media again. That's what you're hearing. I must fuck this bitch and quitter, if that's what I'm hearing in, media again. That's what you're hearing. Yeah. I must fuck this bitch, Enquit her, if that's what it's say, that's what I'm hearing in my head, like that's what you do. It just being, you don't even stare into her eyes, intimately, and cradle her face and kiss her. Yeah.

Take her to a nice demiel, it's not saying that. No. It's in Quitter, kick her out of your car. Yeah. Yeah. Not helpful. Yeah, so that, I mean, he was just like, you know, that I see guys thinking that way, you know, that I see guys

thinking that way, you know, that that's the ideal. That's rackin' up the body count and who cares about the person and her interests, whether it's physical or emotional, are really not part of the burden. Now, you know, and a lot of guys that obviously don't do that, a lot of guys work their way through that, but there's just so much harm and misunderstanding and it's so much harm and they have to undo that from all these years. With, you know, whether it's drinking or sexual assault on campus, I know people will really open to you about that as well in the book. Yeah, yeah, the guys, I mean, there's a chapter called, I know I'm a good guy, but, dot,

dot, dot. And it's... That's... I actually wanted to call the book that for a while, because I heard that so much. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, and also I want to talk about hilarious. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah So with these, you know, you know, I'm a good guy, but this one time. Yeah, but this one time or yeah and And a lot of you know, and so there was a lot of that was about we think only monsters commit sexual assault and anyone who

commits sexual assault or sexual misconduct is a monster. And that blinds it. And so by transitive property then, I'll try this, I'm an English major, man, it's hard on me. But I'm a good guy. Therefore a good guy cannot commit misconduct. So whatever it was I just did could not possibly be misconduct. Yeah, that's about right.

Yeah, and so you, and I'll just press it and not think about it and it goes right. And guys, what research shows is that guys will, if, like they understand the definition of consent, there's this research actually out of Michigan. Okay, okay. Where they, they could articulate a very clear definition

of incorrect definition of consent. But then they were asked about their last took up and their last relationship, sex and last took up and last relationship. And when their actions didn't meet the definition, they expanded the definition rather than questioning their actions because a good guy can't possibly have engaged him as conduct. You know, and which is probably partly why the rates of sexual assault have not changed. Yeah, I was hoping they were, but... Yeah, no, they haven't.

Why would they have been said anything to men? Right, and that said, I will say that the guys, what was hopeful and promising, was that the guys that I was talking to were telling me about these experiences where they hadn't been good guys, or were they were concerned that they hadn't been good guys, maybe they had, maybe they hadn't, they didn't know. We're wrestling with them and that I think five or ten years ago, they wouldn't have even questioned them. A lot of the things that they had, it wouldn't have asked them it would have come up.

You wouldn't have even come up. And it was coming up and they were thinking, like, was that okay? Was that not okay? I think it might not have been okay. What do I do if it wasn't okay? So it wasn't like. What were me meaning like they, someone was drunk or passed out or they,

or somebody didn't say yes, but didn't say no, she just lay there. Like, I don't know what that meant. Maybe it was fine. Maybe she was like, you know, like just Interested, you know, like wanted to see what would happen. Maybe she froze and it wasn't consensual And she's walking around feeling traumatized. Maybe You know, she this particular guy had they then had intercourse a couple more times that was clearly consensual and then she dumped him flat

a couple more times that was clearly consensual, and then she dumped him flat. Maybe she was trying to make it okay after having a non-consensual experience, so she had to do consensual experiences, and then thought, okay, I'm done. Maybe she just didn't like him. I don't know. He doesn't know.

So he, a year later, after this had happened, we were talking, and he was, we were talking, this guy was a big hookup artist guy, and he sort of stopped and said, I didn't think I was gonna talk about this with you, but, okay, I wanna talk about it. And he was wrestling with like, what should I do about that?

How should I call, he said, I probably should call her and find out, but I'm not gonna do that. Right. So just kind of, so that was really interesting. And then also I went, I really struggled with how to add something to the discussion about campus sexual assault.

And so what I ended up doing was a chapter on a restorative justice process, which is something where there's an emphasis on healing, accountability and justice, but not necessarily punishment. In a lot of cases, especially on campus, especially in friend groups, let's just say it's a girl who's been harmed. She doesn't necessarily want the guy expelled or jailed or even suspended.

She might, and that's fair. But if she doesn't, she just wants him to understand how he caused harm and to take responsibility for it and to not do it again. Right, exactly. That's what we all want. Right. And so this was a sort of alternative process that allowed for that. And I tell the story of two people, a guy and a girl,

it's a kind of spin on, he said, she said, because I go back and forth between them as they narrate what happened and the aftermath. It's amazing. And it's a really important chapter to me because it should, like he just thinks he's had a bad hookup. And she's like, I was just assaulted. And It's amazing. Yeah. And it's a really important chapter to me because it should like he just thinks he's had a bad hookup and She's like I was just assaulted and she's right, right, you know But his socialization has just led him into a false assumption and that's what I always say. It's not miscommunication

It's false assumption at a certain point through things happen and he recognizes that he has done something that qualifies as a salt And he falls apart man because he can't imagine that heifies as a salt. And he falls apart, man, because he can't imagine that he's not a monster then. And it's about, you know, how does he put himself back together, stand up, and actually be a man, and take responsibility for this, and move forward as a better person

who will do better in the world himself and in talking to his friends and others and educating others. And he does that. Right. And it's the most incredible thing to watch. It's incredible. It's such an inspiring story because you're like, this is this could happen. We could have this.

Yeah. Because he's not, there's nothing unusual about this guy. He doesn't start out in a like particularly progressive place or particularly fun. I mean, he's like, you know, he said he grew up with like van wilder movies and porn and uncles who told him, it's not a good night out unless you get somebody's phone number and you know grind non-consensually against a bunch of girls And he was coercive with previous partners and just wanted to get to his frat get drunk and Bang what was there? I'm whoever's there. Yeah, he was there was nothing like unusual about him

And the fact that he could that's a nice transformation, right? That is just means that other guys could too if required reading right and it's an after the fact that he could make his transformation means that other guys could too. It's a required reading. Right. And it's an after the fact thing, not ideal, but at least it's a thing. It created an opportunity for him to be the man that he actually did want to be. And then I think a lot of guys want to change is the whole life. No one, because he had no one wants to be that guy.

Changes life trajectory. No one says I'm going to be this asshole. In their other thinking, I'm not an they're thinking, I'm not an asshole. No, I'm not an asshole. And I want a relationship. Maybe they want kids and that this is the way they're going out. When he talks about his coercive behavior, first of all, it's a girl that he likes a lot.

Right. Let's talk about that. What he does, he holds her head down and forces her to have oral sex. And as he said, he thought he was just being a teacher and a nice guy because she wasn't very experienced. And he really liked her. He wanted to like go out with her. Right.

And she's like never spoke, you know, she's like out of there and going on her own. It's a gun. I'm showing you. This is where I want. Yeah. This is what I, this is how you do this. And she's just thinking, no, no, no, no, no. And he's not sitting there thinking, I am a bad guy forcing this girl to do this.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's not what's happening. But he has a lot of false assumptions and a lot of socialization as a guy going into that room. Because this is the thing that he wasn't to have early on. He had the uncle. He had to be at least on board.

And said, this is what sex should be. This is what coercion is. This is what these things are. Of course, he said they had the consent thing when he started college. You have like 45 minutes. 45 minutes class. 45 minutes class.

And he thought, oh, I would be the guy. If I saw some guy dropping a roofie into a girl's drink, who would intervene and beat that guy up and take the drink away. I'm not good guy. So he would never think that he was the guy who was causing harm. And he was a lovely guy. And he became a real lovely guy through this process. And again, shouldn't have come at the expense of somebody else

that that had to happen. But you could see that he was very ordinary. And there's nothing monstrous about him, but he just had a whole basket of bad socialization that needed to be examined and hadn't been. And if it had been, he might have been that guy before he got to that room. And he said in retrospect, he knows that's not the first time

that he did something like that. He just thought that was what you did. Yeah. Right? I think my first boyfriend did that. I'm now I'm a remembering that my boyfriend, but I was like 16, and I remember him like, like this is how you do it.

Put your head down. I was like, I don't really want to, but you know what I mean? Like, because that's our socialization, right? I'm remembering, I'm like, yeah, exactly. And that's another way, another way that the books were so much in conversation. And I talk about gay guys as being sort of a model of consent, right, of negotiating those terms.

And you see that, you know, in queer spaces and kinky spaces, kink spaces that there's much more navigating and explicit discussion of what the parameters are of an experience. And Dan Savage, so he talks about the four magic words that gay guys use at the start of an encounter, which are what are you into? Which is exactly the kind of open-ended question that, as opposed to when we put it in a heterosexual conversation, what we tend to talk about is a series of yes or no questions that a guy is asking a girl and that she's responding to. Yes, no.

That's responding to. Yes, no, right? That's not it. So that's lovely and open ended. And I worry that if a guy who was a teenager or young adult said to a girl, what are you into? She would say, I don't know. Well, this is the thing. And that's how those books are in conversation. I know. That's how they are talking to each other.

And that's how the socialization of guys and girls works to, with that, such as, she's an example great example to undermine communication and connection for everybody and that goes back to for sure. And circle of women your book to like girls and sex is what girls don't know women don't know what they want all ages women don't know what they want and if they do know even a little bit they're afraid to ask for what they want because they're going to be rejected it's going to be weird they're not going to get it

they're going to be a burden It's going to be weird. They're not going to get it. They're going to see the slide. Or it's going to be a burden. Or you take up too much time. It's going to take up too much time. It's going to end you then you feel guilt and then you can't do it. You can't feel it anyway. And that's right. Exactly.

That's why I think the first lesson, and this is why I talk about day and day out, is that the first lesson for women and for men, but especially women right now is what do you want? What do you like? What feels good to you? And that starts with masturbation, communicative sex, figuring out what did night like about that experience. Flip side of that.

Well, what might I like? What might work for me next time? So you can't have an answer to that question. Because I remember for years, before I even started this show, I would be with guys and they'd be like, does that feel good? Do you like it?

And I would just say, yeah. Yeah, everything would be great. Because I was like, am I gonna say? Do you like it? And I would just say, yeah, everything is great. Because I was like, am I gonna say no? I have nowhere to go from here. I don't know what else to do in this situation to make this better. We're just, I just wanted to be over. In some cases, many cases.

Now they look back, right? So, but even still, I feel this was so many women, I don't, they don't know what they want. Yeah, and I would say, I mean, the stats are 40% of teenage girls, 14 to 17, have masturbated even once. Yeah, I know. But got it. So 60% never have.

And when I would talk to girls, when I was doing girls in sex, they would say, well, I have a boyfriend to do that. And you know, that's the same guy who's like rummaging around like he's looking for a set of keys and that. Exactly. He doesn't know what he's doing. They've never had an orgasm. And like, but the boys, they would never say,

I'm not going to masturbate because I have a girlfriend. This is it. No, they would not. And I still hear my married friend, well, my friends, but or women I meet out. Well, no, I don't need a vibrator. I don't masturbate. I have a partner. That's why your books are so groundbreaking and important reads, I think, for everyone.

Men, women, parents, adults, children, everybody to realize that like this is still what we're at. And there's a lot, there's so many more places to go right now with this conversation. But it's so important that we just educate ourselves on what we want. Like what actually feels good to us, which seems like, you know, I always tell you, it's fun homework. It's like a good thing.

Like sex is about pleasure. Can we put the fun back into sex? But no one's going to be able to teach you that. I mean, one of the things I think was someday my prince will come and so will I. That was my big like, I really believe that. He's gonna right up on this white horse and he's gonna show me everything about my body

because I was certain like I knew nothing and that never happened. I wasn't one of those women that just so ahead and orga, you know, I didn't come at all until I took it into my own hands. Well, or you are lucky if you happen as a woman to meet a partner that is collaborative and open in that way. Yeah. You're lucky and then you discover a lot, but it's kind of happens. Yeah. That's right. Exactly. And then also with these ages white, so interesting that to choose from 16 to 22, like they're not there yet, many of them are not going to be there yet. So hopefully,

we see now people reading this book and hearing your messages that they realize, like, oh yeah, it's an incentive to even start younger talking to kids, but meeting them also where they're at. Yeah. Because we want those adults out there. We want them to move into the world as, you know, caring, loving partners. You get a Terry and reciprocal, all that kind of stuff. And, and, you know, I used to say with girls all the time that I didn't, I just didn't want their early experiences to be something they had to get over. Yeah. And I still very strongly believe that. And I don't know that guys early experiences are, sometimes they are, sometimes they're things they have to get over for sure.

Yes, we hear that. But I also don't want to, I want their earliest experiences not only to be ones in which they don't cause harm, but that are actually pleasurable, reciprocal, sustaining. They deserve that too. We do, we all deserve it. Well, thank you so much. Peggy Ornstein for your work for your book. This is such an important work that you're doing, talking to them, and because I think the way you write it and the way you really are getting into their minds and the brains and their lives of kids, all diverse sector of boys in this book, and girls in the other book, is such an eye opener. And I had never really read anything else like this work before. So when I first read girls and then boys, and I think it's just, it's a great service, and I hope it just opens up people's minds,

start talking today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's it for today's episode.

See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review where ever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Sex with Emily. Oh, I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexwithemle.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles

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