Sex With Emily - Boys, Sex & What’s Best with Peggy Orenstein

Episode Date: February 26, 2020

On today’s show, Dr. Emily is joined by writer and journalist Peggy Orenstein to talk about her new book, Boys & Sex and how we need to change the way we talk to and treat young men. They discuss why young boys and men feel like they’re so emotionally stunted, how “locker room” talk truly affects other people beyond the locker room, and why porn is causing an immense issue in developing healthy views on sex in young minds. Plus, how parents can be better emotional role models for their sons.Follow Emily on all social @sexwithemilyFor more on Peggy Orenstein, visit https://www.peggyorenstein.com/For even more sex advice, tips & tricks, visit http://sexwithemily.com/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I said, so you'd rather avert your eyes than take the tiny risk of saying hello to the person that you made out with last night or sex with last night or whatever you did last night. And where there might be the possibility then that you could have the relationship that you say you want. And you just went, yeah, that's right. That's right. And it's this whole like vulnerable. Right. It's been. Yes. And that's what he said. He said, I did a search at one point of how many times people said vulnerable on this book. And it was so many, like, the avoidance.

Well, it's really what I think is at the heart, like even being obsessed. Absolutely, it's vulnerability. We're all afraid of being hurt, not being loved, right? And the taboo against it for guys, and embracing it, and rejecting it, and denying it, and avoiding it, is threaded all the way all the time through the book. And Brunei Brown says that emotional vulnerabilities, the secret sauce that holds relationships together,

if they can't be vulnerable or they feel a taboo against it or they feel denied it as guys, then we are denying the very thing they need to have the mutually gratifying, personally fulfilling relationships that we want young people to have. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and on today's show, I'm joined by writer and journalist Peggy Ornstein to talk about her new book, Boys and Sex, and how we need to change the way we talk to

and treat young men. Topics include, why young boys and men feel like they are so emotionally stunted. How locker room talk truly affects other people beyond the locker room. Why porn is causing an immense issue in developing healthy views on sex and how parents can be better emotional role models for their sons. All this and more, thanks for listening. Look into his eyes. and more, thanks for listening. We just got his heart broken, he thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got to understand. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common all the way? What do you mean like laundry?

It shrinks? Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'm so dumb. Being bad feels pretty good. You know Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything

in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com and now all of our information, social media, all the things is sex with Emily across the board. Alright, the intention for this show, like to call this intentions with Emily, my start of each show, and I ask you to set it in tension as well. So what I mean is like, while you're listening, you know, why are you listening to this episode? What do you hope to get out of it? I have found this to be incredibly powerful to kind of have a statement around something before you start it. And then it'll actually happen. So maybe you're thinking, I've never really felt connected to my masculinity.

And I want to know why or it could be, you know, what is all this news about toxic masculinity? I don't like that. And I don't want to feel bad about myself or the men in my life, like explain it to me. So that's what we're going to talk about in this show or my intention for this show is To show what it's really like in society now for boys and men going up and how we can change the conversation around masculinity and just help us teach better like emotional and relationship skills to everyone around us. I'm really excited to welcome my guys Peggy Ornstein. She's an incredible woman. I've been a fan of her for years. She's a New York Times bestselling author and a journalist and I found out about her through one of her books Girls and Sex, which was so fascinating to me. And then I

was watching her Ted Talk, which you have to check out what young women believe about their own sexual pleasure. It's actually been viewed over 4.5 million times. So when I heard she came out with boys and sex, I knew I had to get her on the show. She's written other books surrounding women and sex and relationships. If you have women, your daughters, you know, nieces, anything in your life, there's all these books. The boys and sex and the girls and sex will be super helpful. She's been a keynote speaker, colleges, big conferences. And she's also featured on so many television shows. So she's gone out there and actually talk to all the people, men, women, boys, and girls, and listen to them.

Gathered all that information and put out such important work into the world. It's really information that we need to know. And I really think you're gonna enjoy this interview as much as I did. So let me know, enjoy the show. You wrote a book called Girls and Sex, and I couldn't put it down.

You should see my copy, it's like scratch. There's like highlights, and there's like pencil marks, and then I sent to people. I think I have the audio, I watch your TED talk, I have it on Kindle, I sent it to people. My niece stayed with me this summer, I'm like, read this, I put it by her bed 19 years old. And so when I heard that you wrote boys and sex,

I was like, she's got to come on the show. This is amazing. So I'm so honored. Thank you for your time and thank you for sitting here with me today. So what was the biggest obstacle for you to like sit down with boys? What was the absolute you face sitting down

talking to boys about sex rather than girls? I mean, honestly, I think it was my own bias to be real. I did not, I wrote about girls for 25 years. I wrote about girls in my room for 25 years. And boys, I was, people would say, well, you should do a book about boys now after girls and sex came out. And I just started like, well,

I think that's somebody else's job. But I also realized that I'd been in kind of the trenches of young people and sex and social life at that point for like five years and I knew the terrain really well and so I thought well, I don't know maybe I could do it and I started sort of talking to boys and and then the me-to movement came along and suddenly the scope of sexual misconduct became apparent, and there was a mandate to reduce sexual violence. But it also felt like a moment that was an opportunity to engage boys, maybe for the first time in these conversations about sex and intimacy and masculinity and gender dynamics.

But my big fear and my big bias was that they wouldn't say anything that, you know, I would have like whole transcripts that consisted of, uh-huh, nope, you know, right, that they don't have a reputation for chattiness. No, exactly. But so the biggest surprise, I think, of even more than like any specific conclusion in the book was just how much they wanted to talk, how eager they were to talk, and how really honest and blunt they were. Because nobody ever asked them, they don't have models of it in their culture with their

parents. They're involved in this like the bro culture, which you talk a lot about. Which I think is interesting because when I started hearing about, you know, when me two happened, I was like, and everyone's like, oh, men, men, men, toxic mass, galini. And I just thought, I feel so bad for these young boys. Right. And all boys, really, because they're like galignity, and I just thought I feel so bad for these young boys. Right. And all boys, really, because they're like, we never learned any of this. So I love to hear that when you sat down, they actually did want to open up.

So can you talk a little bit about that? Like I know even you opened up the book saying, uh-oh, like this one's not going to open up and they do. Yeah. So maybe a little bit about the broke culture, what that really means. Yeah. Well, yeah, and I mean, I think the truth is is that nobody does ask boys and nobody's listening to them

and that they are wrestling with these issues now in a new way. And it was a really interesting, I think it was a very opportune moment to do a book like this because I don't know. I mean, one of the things that was really interesting with the boys was how they were wrestling with ideas that I think maybe five or ten years ago, they wouldn't have even been considering. Well, that's thing. Time being, right? And so being able to

catch them as a new generation was considering these ideas. And yeah, the whole toxic masculine thing, I always, somebody wrote to me the other day and said, why do you always put it in quotes? And I said, well, because I don't really like to use that phrase. I don't think when you're talking to boys that it serves us very well in trying to help bring them in and help them understand and help them to examine themselves and go forward in the best way they can. So I started using sociologists use this term precarious masculinity. And I think that's a lot better because it I think it's still a

vocative of what gets triggered for for guys in certain situations that makes them act in ways that are not Advantageing them or their partners, but it's it's kind of less hostile. Yeah, but that's a thing. It's also hostile. So it's like they're like, well that's really scary. I don't mean when they're starting to hear about it, I don't want to be that guy, but now what do I do? And you're right. And it also disconnects. I mean, you don't think you're a for that guy. So, so yeah, so the sort of whole book, I mean, what I was one of the things that I think was when I was looking at girls, like I said, there was,

you know, for the thing that always interested me was sort of the contradictions people live with. So with girls, it was sort of about all these new expectations that we had of girls about standing out, about shining bright, while also still hanging on to these old assumptions that we hadn't really dispensed with of being pleasing, defining yourself through your body, you know, all these other ideas, defining yourself from the outside in. And with guys too, it probably shouldn't be a surprise that they're now living with contradictions and these new ideas and old ideas

layered on top of each other. And that was kind of what interested me to examine. So, you know, they saw themselves as progressive, a lot of them. They thought, you know, girls were deserving of their place in the classroom. They weren't saying, like, girls can't do math. Girls can't be president. That was all gone. That was gone. They thought girls could be leaders, girls were deserving of their place in the classroom. They weren't saying like, girls can't do math, you know, girls can't be president.

That was all gone. That was gone. They thought girls could be leaders, girls could be, you know, we're deserving of professional opportunities, all that. But yet when I would ask them like, what's the ideal guy? They would still start channeling 1955. Right.

And it would still be about dominance, aggression, athleticism, wealth, sexual conquest, and the body count being the kind of measure of the man and using partners as disposable regardless of how you feel about that, regardless of how they feel about that, and emotional suppression. And all those things that they call it, the man box or whatever you want to call it, that simultaneously disconnect.

I mean, boys were talking to me all the time about training themselves not to feel or putting a wall up. And the only thing they were allowed were happiness and anger, that kind of thing. And we know that there can be real rewards of embodying or embracing those rigid norms. Right? It turns out you can be president by embracing those norms. Right? Right? Yes. So there are models that show boys that you can be very successful with that, but it comes at a huge cost. And we know that guys who cling more to those norms are, yes, they're more likely to harass assault bully, but they're also more likely to be the victims of violence.

They're more likely to be in car accidents, to binge drink, to be depressed, to die by suicide, to have fewer friends, to be lonely. I mean, it's not a pretty picture. No, no. It's really not a pretty picture. And they opened up for you. So when you sat down with these guys, because the thing is, you're right, even five years ago before all the Harvey Weinstein and all that, I mean, I love you even you're opening your name, you list, like Aziz and Sari and all the things that happens, like right now,

they kind of have to look at it, but nobody is giving them this new information. So no one's saying, but this is how you do it better or differently or even explain to them what it is because the parents don't even get it So here you are sitting you sat down with how many 100 100 roughly 100 I mean that's a lot of conversations. Yeah, and then to feel like and you're just asking about for the I'm I'm gonna get for the first time They they probably ever talked about these things. Yeah, a lot of the stuff that they had you know a lot of conversation started with

I've never talked to anybody about this before, or saying at the end that, you know, it was cathartic, or it was like therapy, or it feels like it. Some boys who would say, so when are we gonna have another interview? And, you know, some of them, I would interview, or maybe it. I love it, but it also hurts my heart,

like where do they go now? Because, you know what I mean? Like in the sense of, I love that they're open up. I have this thing too, because like after everyone was so angry about all the men, you know, this all this happened, I was like, how do we help them? So it seems like this was a great point to like talk to them. When you're talking about, I'm going to go back to them shutting down emotionally because

I think that's so interesting. It's about, you say like it's about age five or six, something happens, it could be even younger, like even pre-memory, but they're like, you have to repress these emotions. You can't, it's not okay to feel. And then, and then some of them, and talking to you, they're like, in explaining it. And I could kind of relate to that too, as being someone who was really shut down

by things in childhood, I wasn't comfortable to feel, and I think a lot of people can, men and women can relate to that, but it's definitely more men. Can you explain the repetition of them saying, men and women can relate to that, but it's definitely more men. Can you explain the repetition of them saying like, yeah, what that experience was for them and those ages, they kind of explained to you the shutting down, they kind of remembered it. Yeah, yeah, they would talk about building a wall, they would talk about being trained

not to feel, they talk about a lot of messages from their fathers. And what was interesting about that was that, you know, yeah, there were some guys who said, my dad told me to man up, not be a little bitch, you know, that kind of thing. But that wasn't most of them for most of them. They would say, um, my dad wasn't sexist. My dad wasn't homophobic. I didn't learn that, you know, they used the phrase toxic. They all knew that phrase toxic masculinity from him. Um, but I did learn that stunted side of masculinity because he was not a guy who'd talk about emotions. He was more of a sci-an-walk away kind of a guy than the

guy who kind of guy who'd asked what was going on. And so I learned not to have those conversations from him. So there was the subtler ways that they would learn that too, and not just from their debts. You know, there's research when you say pre-memory. There's research that shows that mothers speak with less emotional range and use less emotional language with their infant boys than with their infant girls. And they over attribute their boys' responses as in infants to anger. And there's a classic study that shows adults watch a video of an infant being startled by a

jack-in-the-box, and if they're told in advance that the baby is a boy, whether or not that's true, baby's wearing a diaper, we don't know that the baby is. They are more likely to attribute the baby's response to the jack-in-the-box as anger, as opposed to fear or surprise or anything else. And so there's a way that from the beginning, boys, first of all, live in a more impoverished emotional environment, and also learn that all of those, that whole bucket of emotions that involves sadness, grief, pain, betrayal, frustration,

all gets poured into the funnel of anger. And we can see in the culture, the impact of that across the board. Yeah. I mean, because there's also like anger and to experience the range of five or six emotions, anger and sadness and fear. What is it? Enjoy and happiness. And mostly, yeah, it's just like, I can see that it's anger. And it's there's such a range. So what can parents do now? Did anything? How can they talk to their kids about masculinity? Well, I think there's a, anchor. And there's such a range. So what compareants do now? Did anything? How can they talk to their kids about masculinity?

Well, I think there's a, you know, there's a number of things. There's always something in the news we can talk about. You know, there's always something that we can bring up. If you have little boys still, to be able to name their emotions is super important. So to say, you know, seems like like you're sad or wow, that must be frustrating, or when they are going straight to anger, taking a step back and trying to figure out what's underneath that anger, so you can name that for them. And particularly if men in their lives can do that, whether it's their dad or, you know, whoever the man in their life is,

to be able to speak with compassion and connection to boys and listen to them and model that as a guy hugely important. And for older boys, I was thinking about the other day, like the Kobe Bryant stuff, super tragic, really horrible thing. And we saw this, I mean, there was a bunch of things that you could talk about relating to that. One of them is the outpouring of grief by a don't man and what that looked like and how profound it was and why is it that the only time that men get to express that is when something this tragic

and public happens and then it's a bit. And sports. So it was safe. And it's a lot about sports in your book and athleticism and how yeah. And so that was a safe. It was there was a lot that was made it's safe for them to express emotion around that. So if you're just talking to your teenage boy about that, you know, they can have a conversation around like, why is that safe, why is that okay? What other situations would you be able to cry?

Why not, you know, what does that mean about guys? I mean, there's a whole series of conversations you can have around something like that in the news. Right. Now that's true, that's a great example of it of conversations you can have around something like that in the news. Right. Right. No, that's true. That's a great example of it because it's so true that they, yeah, sports made it safe. I didn't even thought about that, but it's very true.

And I mean, there's some more complicated conversations you can have to around the Kobe Bryant, death around assault and around race and around very a number of things. There's like, it's chocolate. Yeah, there are so many conversations that that that yields that are really valuable and you just have this moment where you can step in and have them and, you know, very tragic event obviously, but a fantastic opportunity to do that. Yeah, that's true. I often say like look at the new look at things that you, you know, bring your kids in.

If you're watching TV, stop the TV. I don't know if you're like, it's not like that. People aren't really watching it all with your kids in. If you're watching TV, stop the TV. I don't know if people are, it's not like people aren't really watching it all with their kids anymore, but if you are, if there's something in the paper, or a blog, or something, you're reading to kind of make it more relevant. So it's like sports is kind of like an outlet

to let out their emotion, and it's also like the bro culture and the locker room. It can be a smoke screen. I mean, those all male environments can be a crucible of change,, those all-male environments can be a crucible of change. And I talk about some ways in the book where they have been,

particularly if it's coach led, where those environments can shift in really profound ways. But too often, that sports culture, while it can be fun, and it preaches that it builds character and camaraderie and brotherhood and all this stuff, it's also a smoke stream for the worst kind of bro culture and an us against them mentality homophobia misogyny bonding you know asserting your heterosexuality and bonding as men through the control of female bodies. So what do they say when they're talking about sex in the locker room right they they hit that they tapped out they bang they pound they hammered they pipe

that it's like it's like they went to a construction site. It's not like, you know, it's not an act of intimacy. And so the guys that I was talking to, it's not like they were all like, and that's cool, you know, like they didn't think it would like. No, and I think a lot, you know, a lot of guys don't. They wanted to speak up. They didn't know how to speak up. One guy talks about trying to speak up and being shot down and then his friend continues to try and you know when it happens again and he doesn't and he said, you know, I just watched my friend and nobody, you know, the guys weren't listening to him anymore. He lost all the social capital and here I had buckets of it and I wasn't spending it and you know, I don't know what to do because I don't want to have to choose between my dignity

and these guys, but how do I make it so I don't have to choose. And Michael Thompson, who's a psychologist who writes about boys, has said that it's silence in the face of cruelty and misogyny in which boys become men. And I thought about that a lot in those situations. And what boys, not only what they did say and did do, but what they couldn't do and couldn't say. And, you know, all of that and how that was shaping who they were. Did you see in talking to them, would they ask you and say, well, what could I do now? How could I change this? There was a more like, um, it's just how it is. So when I was interviewing

them, I would say not so much because it wasn't my role, but as I've gone around with the book, like I just the other day had a division one athlete come up to me at a reading and say, so what do I do? Like I want to stop this and what do I do? Um, and I, you know, I said, well, in a signing line at a reading, hard for me to give you the full answer, but he emailed me later and I just, you know, I started to well, in a signing line at a reading, hard for me to give you the full answer. But he emailed me later. And I just, you know, I gave him a bunch of resources, a bunch of ideas about like, if you can work. One of the resources that you think about, and people, talking to Peggy Orr and Seen her book is New York Times best selling author, Girls and Sex. She finally came out with boys and sex, young men on hookups love porn consent and navigating the new masculinity.

It is a must read. It'll be on the show notes. So yeah, you have all the resources. I mean, I gave him a bunch of ideas in terms of, you know, it depends. It depends on, is your coach somebody who you can approach and talk to about this who might be open to bringing some programming in that would change the culture of the locker room. That would be thing one. Maybe he is, maybe he's not. If he's not, then like how could you reach out to other people who you feel would be on your team that are on your team? And how could you, you know, what kind of things could you do that would sort of social norm some of this stuff, you know, to change it? What could you, is there, if there's one guy who's really a major perpetrator

and you're friendly with him, are there ways to take him aside when it's not a threatening time and just like speak your piece and he's going to push back and say, what do you know, do I need to get your camp on? You know, whatever. And he can say, you can say that, but I'm still going to tell you, this is how I feel. That's, I just wanted to let you know, whatever. And you can say that, but I'm still going to tell you, this is how I feel. I just wanted to let you know, I'm not okay with this. And okay, now let's go back and play our video game or whatever. Right. Exactly.

Just like some different options from a more collective option to a more individual option. Because we're just not teaching these kids even, basic communication skills. Basic communication skills. Why don't we teach you that in school or what you need to do? So like if you start there, you're starting with these basic communication skills that nobody has talked to kids about like when you're wondering like how they can't have conversations around consent or why they don't know what positive sexuality is, geez, they can't even

get here. Right. They're exactly. They're not even the basics. We can't get there from them. That's why it's so big, huge right now, because it's like the parents and the teachers and then the kids and we're all trying to figure it out. And we don't wanna raise another generation of this.

Were there any interesting, like after spending so much time with girls, 25 years of girls and now you're like, oh God, now you're with men, that must have been, and boys, that must have been such an interesting contradiction, but were there contradictions when you sat down, a contrast, and then when you sat down,

was there anything you could hear from boys that was just like, I don't know, that was there ever a moment where you're like, wow, this makes so much sense to tell my girls left. Do you actually hear it? I did, actually, the one place of overlap, real overlap in both books, is the chapter on hookup culture.

Yeah, I'm talking about that. And they're both the same and they're different. And so much of the girl book, and I always say, my job is not to tell young people the context in which they're supposed to have sex. That's not my role. But to demystify that, the hookup culture, and to give them a sense of what you are likely

and not likely to get from those sorts of encounters. I think it's really helpful for them in understanding their choices and their results and also understanding how it vastly over states what other people are doing and gives you false ideas about what's happening. So give an example of that. So what the hook up culture stuff that seemed like it was

that was sort of the same. It's different. So obviously what's the same is that they're both immersed in this culture and that this hookup culture is telling them that drunk to touch sex is the ideal. So it's so upset, I know. Blackout. Yeah, right. You don't remember.

You haven't gone out unless you blacked out. Yeah. Well, that was really, I still think about that from your girl's book. How you kept saying like, because then I was seeing it everywhere'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, anger and betrayal around hookup culture. Cluckup culture tends to teach kids what they don't want. That tends to be the big lesson of hookup culture. But the girls would express a lot of anger and a lot of betrayal. And some of them were telling me that they were into it too. But when it was going wrong, the boys didn't express that so much, but it was really clear

that it wasn't serving them either. Okay. And they would tell me more about that. So they would say things like one of the guys said, it's like two people having two distinct experiences and there's not a lot of eye contact. There's not a lot of communication and it's like you're acting vulnerable without being vulnerable, which with somebody that you don't know very well and don't care about very much.

So he said, you know, I don't know that it's always a problem necessarily, which one could are you ever? Right. He said, it's odd and it's not really fun. Well, because they don't have anything to compare it to either. Like this is their first experience in sex. So it seems like, you know, the, the, the it seems like the valuation is wrong. So they're thinking what you want is experience and that that's what gets you experience.

What you want is, as opposed to wanting to understand your body, wanting to create a humanity and your partner wanting to have something reciprocal and enjoyable and that collaborative. It's almost like a sportsman tell the more runs I do, like if it's skiing, like the more hills, like a downer, more people are being, the more people that it's really gonna help. And in hell, you know, it'll be a better lover. Right.

And you're not, one of the things that I always say is one thing you will not learn in a hookup is the skills you need to, you know, create good sex or the emotional connection you might want. That's not going to happen. You will get a warm body, you will get an adrenaline rush, and you'll get a story to tell your friends, which is in some ways the most important part of the hook up. It is, right. Right.

And so one of the things that I talked about a lot in the girl book was like the irrelevance of female orgasm in a hook up. Eurelevance, yeah, it doesn't even come up. It doesn't even come up. It's not a thing. You know, like, it's nice if it were to happen, that would be certainly not a bad thing, but nobody's expecting it. No. It's not what it's say. That's not what you're there for. That's not what it does. But, and so I was interested in talking to guys about that. And it turned out that,

yeah, they would say in a hook up, I mean, in a relationship, the orgasm gap shrinks a lot. Yes. But in a hook up, it's huge. And guys would say, yeah, I know it sounds bad, but I don't really care in a hook up. And- Do they even know about orgasm, though? They know about the peterists. Yes. They feel like they were educated. No. No. They know female women have orgasms, not really. And they know, like, conceptually an idea that there's a thing called a clitoris, but the- but how the whole situation has to work and happen, and they know like conceptually an idea that there's a thing called a clitoris, but how the whole situation has to worsen happens and it might happen that not so clear, and there's a lot of misunderstanding. And one of the misunderstandings, and this

was not really about orgasm, it was about satisfaction, was that, and this was where it felt really interesting to have the books kind of in conversation with one another, the guys did care about female satisfaction. They just didn't define it through orgasm. So what they wanted, how they defined it in a hookup was because again, it's about the invisible audience in the room, right? It's about what you're going to go back and tell your guys, what she's going to go back and tell her girls. So how they were measuring female satisfaction was based on penis size and stamina, mostly stamina in intercourse. Like, like how long you last? We went for two hours exactly. My penis was massive. Well, no, but it's also what she's gonna tell

her friends. Now what you're gonna tell your friends. So one guy would say to me like that he started had gotten the habit and hook up of looking at the clock before he started intercourse so that he would last what he like that he started, had gotten the habit and hook up of looking at the clock before he started intercourse so that he would last what he can, you know, believe to be a sufficient amount of time because he said, and he said, it wasn't really even about her pleasure. It was about my ego and making sure

that when she went back to her friends, she wouldn't say she was disappointed and that she would, you know, say that I was, that I was okay. It's almost like a yell review, because your yell review for sex, because the boys you talk to, know, say that I was, that I was okay. It's almost like a Yelp review, because you're Yelp review for sex, because the boys you talk to work, let's say the ages again, it was like like 16 to 22. Right. So the girls then are colluding in that because they're going back and saying, yeah,

it was great. He, you know, he had a big dick or it was great. He lasted for 10 minutes, but then they're not saying, and by the way, you know, I didn't have an orgasm and that's not what gets me off, you know, exactly. Or they were faking. Yeah, they're not saying, and by the way, I didn't have an orgasm and that's not what gets me off. Or they were faking. Yeah, they faked. And that's the other thing was that guys vastly overestimate girls orgasms and hookups.

So they do think the girls are having orgasms and that's sometimes because they don't know what that is and it's sometimes because the girls are faking. So there's a whole dynamic that's at play that undermines any communication and undermines mutual satisfaction and undermines connection. The other part in terms of connection is that after a hookup you're supposed to be less friendly than before.

What hookup culture means, and obviously casual sex is always adjusted. Yes, but hookup culture is the idea that sexual sex is the normalized path to a relationship, even though most hookups don't lead to a relationship. And that's partly because you're supposed to be less friendly afterward. So guys would talk about like averting their eyes if they saw a girl that they'd hooked up with. And I would go like, well, why would you do that? And he said, well, you know, the guy that I was saying is said, well, you know, you don't

know what they're thinking. And maybe they're thinking it was just something that happened at a party. And then you're the idiot. If you say, you know, hi, you know, like if you're like think it was like they think that then you think it was something more. Right. And you don't want to be in that position. So you just divert your eyes to avoid the whole thing. And I said, so you'd rather avert your eyes, then take the tiny risk of saying hello to the person that you made out with last night or sex with last night or wherever you did last night. And where there might be the possibility that you could have the relationship that you say you want. And you just went, yeah, that's right.

That's right. That's right. And it's this whole like vulnerable right. But it's a one. Yes. And that's what he said. He said, you don't want. And that's what I said. Again, like I did a search at one point of how many times people said vulnerable in this book. And it was so many, like I, the, of these things.

These things weren't. Well, it's really what I think is at the heart, like even being sexy. Absolutely. It's vulnerability. We're all afraid of being hurt, not being loved, right? And the taboo against it for guys and embracing it and rejecting it and denying it and avoiding it is threaded all the way all the time through the book. And you know, Brunei Brown says that emotional vulnerabilities, the secret sauce that holds relationships together.

So if they can't, if they can't be vulnerable or they feel a taboo against it, or they feel denied it as guys, then we are denying the very thing they need to have the mutually gratifying, personally fulfilling relationships that we want young people to have. Right. So essentially we're saying they're never going to get there unless they learn to experience this range of emotions and learning to be vulnerable in all areas that they like. And have the true courage.

The true courage, which is the courage to like see the other person and try to connect with them, you know. So it's, and we're not setting them up for that in this in college. Was there any surprises? So was there any one that was like, they were in a healthy relationship? Oh, yeah. For sure. Or guys who were coming out the other side of that culture a little

bit older and we're thinking about things in a different way. There's one guy that I talk about. It's actually a great, there's this great scene in that hookup chapter that this guy who he calls himself a feminist fuck boy, which I loved. Some people call that guy a soft boy or something like that. But he was somebody who, you know, he talked to a game of being a egalitarian guy. He was very conscious of consent. But he also treated his partners as disposable. And he also used the skewed ratio

of girls to guys on campus that advantaged guys and allowed them to call the shots in what was going to happen. You know, he used that and he knew he was using that to get, you know, what, sleep with as many girls as he could. And when I met him, he was getting to a point where he was saying that he was starting to think about that and think that maybe that was not serving him so well.

And so he was thinking about that. And then I talked to him about a year later and we were talking about where he was at. And while we were talking, this other boy who was a senior in high school and was looking at colleges where he'd been accepted, deciding where he was gonna go, texted me from one of the campuses

and he said, you know, something like, WTF with hookup culture, it's like an orgy down here. Do I just go to bone town and, you know, forget about emotions? I mean, in case you were wondering how they spoke to me. No, I get it. No, perfect.

That's how they, yeah. And he was like, and worry about emotional connection later. Or do I just forget about that in part entirely? And so I read that text to the feminist fuck boy guy, his name was Wyatt, and said, what do you have to say to Nate? What should I tell him? And they ended up having this conversation through me. Oh, wow.

And talking about like, you know, being your authentic self and how if you try to be somebody or not, it's going to kill you. And there's lots of people who have a different idea on campus about what they want. They don't participate in that. You don't have to. And Nate then texted me back and said, that's just what I needed to hear. Thank you. And little heart emoji.

I love it. And I know because I state he's somebody that I stay in touch with that that conversation supported him in being the guy he wanted to be as he went away to college when he finally chose where he was going to go. And that he is the guy he wants to be. He's been able to maintain his integrity in that way and his personal ideas. And I thought, you know, those guys are strangers to one another. They never met. They don't know each other's real names.

And they barely know me, you know? I'm really a stranger. But what if they could talk like that to boys and men in their real lives? What if they could have those kind of connected, deep conversations? I know. I was just trying to think of like, could there be some kind of chat for Facebook group? I mean, maybe this exists. And there are more.

Yeah, there's more of a mask of mask, and they all just like coming out. Or even like in another scene in that chapter, I sit down with a group of guys and girls together. And the day after the party, the day after the night before, and we have a conversation about all of this. And they were so into it, and they were so amazed by what the other sex said. And then at the end, we talked for like an hour and a half,

two hours, and I got up to leave and they, you know, they said, can we do this again next week? And I was like, yes, but not with me, because I'm an adult and don't live in the dorm. Exactly. But it's like a little group. But just the taste of it. Just the idea.

They were like, wow, we had no idea. And it was, but that was like a co-ed group too. And that, yeah, that was really interesting. Oh, that's, yeah. That is amazing. It was the only time I sat down with a co-ed group and they were like, we want to do this again. And they were not old there in college.

They were, uh, 18, 19, they were freshman in college. Yeah. That's what they need. It has to be like, what required campuses right now. There's a lot of work to my college. Yeah, that's what they need. It has to be like required campuses right now. There's a lot of work to do here. Yeah, because it's really the hookup culture thing that we're going on now since when did they first coin that? Like early 2000s.

I was late 90s. Yeah. It just seems like every one year, there was like five books that came out and then called culture. It was just like, is that still happening? And we just see so it's so not satisfying. Yeah, it's entrenched.

It's absolutely. My favorite book on it is American Hookup. By Lisa Wade, I Yeah, it's entrenched. It's absolutely. I think my favorite book on it is American Hook Up. By Lisa Wade, I just think it's so smart. It is, yeah, I mean, that is one of them. It's true. And I think setting it up before they get into college, yeah, how do we do that? Like in orientation, I know that's talking about.

Well, but it needs to go well before college because now what has happened, what I think has changed is that that culture has drifted downward so that it's now really prevalent on high school campuses as well. And they know when they talk about a hook up in high school, they're usually not talking about intercourse, but they're still talking about a kind of detached experience, whatever is in that experience, a disconnected detached experience that is often typically happens

while wasted. Yes, I think that, you know, we need to be having those, I mean, what age, don't you think though it has started? I agree. We need to be talking about history. We need to be talking about history. We need to be talking about history. we need to be having those, I mean, what age don't you think though it has to be like consent? I agree. We need to be talking about this from school. There's your clitoris here, like anatomy. Yeah, because you're vulva, yeah. What, we, that's what I think is actually anatomy

and then consent, do let anyone touch you, like, you know, it's primates. I need to ask before you hug somebody and not letting, like, to think all of that, is that what you or me, that if your kid, you know, if gradient Nancy comes over and wants to put a big smooch on your kid and your kid, your four year old goes, I don't want to kiss great Nancy. Well, great Nancy's just got to suck it up. You don't get to kiss because that is a consent issue.

That is bodily integrity. You know, those are really important lessons. It's not just what you don't do. It's what cannot, you know, what you are, what people don't do. Even people in your life, even people you love, even your friends, you know. Exactly. Just saying, can I give you a hug? It's not that big of a deal.

It's not that big of a deal. And in fact, it feels so much better. And it really, it's scaffolds. It scaffolds into those more, if you, I mean, if you're coming in at 16, you can do it for sure. Right. But, and you can say, like, there's a lot of conversations we didn't have, and I regret that, and now we're going to have them.

It's harder. It's a lot easier if you've been talking about these issues openly since your child was able to speak. Exactly. We're gonna take a quick break and we come back more with Peggy Ornstein. Also like with porn now too, with all the boy, I mean that's a thing. I get texts too from like, friends, sons, friends, daughters. Like, what do I do? You know, and it's just like, it is the whole, they don't want to talk to their parents about it, but if you start young, then it's just the most normal thing in the world. And also, you're having, I mean, lucky your friends' kids that they have you, but there's, you can have the cool aunt or the, you know, the cool uncle or the, you you know the older cousin or even the older sibling

that steps in and takes you know and does some of that that that's fine but yeah the porn conversation I mean that's not the reason I mean because that's why we got to start early because they're seeing it at nine and ten and eleven I just was talking to somebody whose daughter at twelve got busted for got busted for her, she and some other girls were sending really degrading and violent hardcore images to one another on text and to people who did not ask to have those sent to them. So there were legal issues, there were consent issues, but more than that, I was talking about it with my daughter, who's 16, and I said, and this was another opportunity for me to have a conversation with her. I was just saying,

it's such a bummer. Like, you're 12 years old, and that's what you're seeing about sex. What were they supposed to say? They give photos to that. Not just naked, but like really graphic and violent. Right, okay. And that's the thing that we have to realize. It's not like they're sending playboy centerfolds to each other. If you don't know what today's porn looks like, you need to look at it because what what has changed, I mean, I like some of the age discipline that kind of, or like, you know, a woman with being gagged by a penis with mascara running down her tears.

Right. Yes. Yes. Okay. I mean, you're seeing that when you're 12 year old girl. That sucks. I know. That's I mean, you're seeing that when you're 12 year old girl? That sucks. I know. It sucks. That sucks. Yeah, it sucks. I mean, it just, it's just like, now you can't see that. You can't see that.

Now that's in your, you know, your head, I mean, it's just sad. And it is, it always reminds me of one of the guys who said to me, I mean, you know, the whole porn conversation, and we'll have that in a second, but one guy just kind of, and he wasn't, this was a guy who was pretty like into hook-up scene and into all this stuff and he just went, but you know, I feel like the thing with porn is that it's made it for our generation like just the natural process of discovering sex without preconceived notions of what it is. He said, that's just been fucked for us by porn. And that was

like the saddest thing to me of all, like that you just don't get to find it out without these prepackaged ideas being fed into your head. That's just sad. That is really sad because you can't unsee any of it. So of course you think that that's what sex is going to be. Or it affords you. It absolutely affects you. So all saying all that, I always want to say, and I know that you know this, that curiosity about sex is normal, masturbation, yay, everybody should be doing it as much as possible. What's different is that, and we could debate

for adults whether there's such a thing as ethical porn, or feminist porn, or queer porn, all these other kinds of things. Some people say yes, some people say no, whatever. That's all behind a paywall. That's not what kids are looking on. What we're talking about is that the paywall got dropped by Pornhub in 2007, basically. And so that allowed you to get access anything anonymously for free. It was 2007 at any time on Mm-hmm. On your smartphone. And that's what changed.

And so young people, when we're not having, and that version of porn shows kids over and over, sex is something that men do to women. That female pleasure is a performance and really like wildly distorted form for it. Not for it. Yeah. She's not going to show up with three friends. Nope, she's not and and start just screaming the second you just doesn't work the way. You know, it doesn't work that way, right? And and that's what they see and when we're not talking to them, when they're not getting anything in

school, when there's nothing countering that narrative about what you know, what sex actually is, what's real, what's not real, what's missing, sensuality, playfulness, messiness, passion, all these things. Passion, romance, intimacy. When we're not talking about any of that with them, this is their sex educator. This is what you are, you porn. Right, it's you, or you, thank you very much.

It's you or you porn. That's a very good line. You can do that. I use your lines all the time. I sell. you porn, right? Right. Thank you very much. It's you or you porn. That's a very good line. You do that. Thank you. I can use your lines all the time. I use your lines all the time. I use your lines all the time.

Um, but it's true. And, and that's what they've taken at the bedroom. And they, and I mean, the boys were, they, it was one of the things they most wanted to talk about, actually. Oh, yeah. I tell me. So is it, is it as bad as I think like, are they really saying like, do they know it's not real?

You say, well, they do when they don't. Because they don't know what, they're like, oh, I hear what you're saying. But I don't know what else it is. Well, and they'll say, I mean because they don't know what they're like like, oh, I hear what you're saying, but I don't know what else. I mean, they were they responded in a lot of different ways. So some guys had said, I'm kind of done with this because I don't like what it's doing to my fantasy life. I don't know what it's doing to my mind. How old were the boys that said that they were done with it? Well, one of them was a senior in high school. Okay. And he said, what did it for him was that he was sitting in class one day. And he looked over at the girl next to him and he started wondering what she was going to look what she would look like with calm on her face.

Oh, like. And he said, it wasn't even like he was thinking what would it be like to kiss her? What would it be like to see her naked? Nothing. It was like, what would she look like with calm on her? And he just went, oh shit. And like he said, that's it, I gotta stop this. Wow. And so that was like a kind of deep there.

Like I wish he would like go to his friends that day and you know, for work, you know? Well, and they would say, like there were guys, you know, one guy said to me that there was a guy on his crew team who was legendary because he had stopped using porn. And they said, well, what do you do? And he said, I use my imagination.

And the other guys were just like, how do you do that? he said, I use my imagination. And the other guys were just like, how do you do that? Like it wasn't even a thing. If you grew up after 2007 with porn hub, it wasn't even really a thing. So, you know, part of it was like, you're not going to get rid of the porn, but like, can we broaden their idea of what you might, exactly how you might, you might approach masturbation that might not only be more pleasure. I mean, and distinguishing between what's super arousing and what's actually pleasurable and wanted and desirable. That was one thing I talked a lot about. What that means. Well, like, so I looked at, do you know Emily Nagaske's words?

Yes. So she's fantastic, right? The book, Come as You Are, is like a Bible. Yes. So she's fantastic, right? The book comes as you are is like a Bible. And she talks about genital non-concordance, which is that you can be aroused by something that the body will do what the body will do. So if the body thinks that something sexual is a foot, it will react, it will lubricate, it will get an erection, even if you're thinking, Ick, right? Because, and that's why a woman can orgasm during a rape. Or, you know, you can get an erection from something that you find repugnant. And in fact, what Emily will say is that

there's a way that when you find something both objectionable and sexual, that it actually will turbocharge a rousal. Because you're getting all the dopamine, all the spread of all the stuff going on in your brain, and make it actually more arousing than something that's desirable. And I think that, you know, sometimes the guys who talk about seeing stuff that was like, stuff that you would never

even think of, you know, like really off the charts. And it would be arousing to them and they would be disturbed by the fact that it was arousing to them. And so I think understanding some basic aspects of physiology and genital non-concordance and that whole thing is really important when you're going into a porn world. So you can kind of say, oh, I, it's, there's a reason why I feel like I'm not into this, but my body's going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can, I can understand that better and maybe respond to it differently. So what happens now is though, would we talk about the general non-concordances that they're actually seeing it? And maybe it's something like, maybe the first time I do see a gang bang or choking

and they think, it, but then it becomes. And then the next time, and the first time I do see a gang banger choking and they think it but then it becomes and then the next time and the next I think I skip right over it. It could have been a matter of seconds or a few times. So what we're saying is to even identify that moment in time hopefully before it happens. Yeah. It's useful because they also it's not saying it's not a shaming blaming thing. It's just saying, look, this is how this works. How do you think about this? And then there was a whole other set of guys, of course, who said, and there was a small sub-set of guys who felt really deeply harmed. And I can't say whether it was a chicken and the egg thing, you know, in terms of their ponies, but I can say that they never talked to an adult before about it and that they were struggling. And they wanted to talk to somebody about it. And then there was a part of the part that they felt

harmed. They felt or they felt that it had skewed their ideas of sex. They felt they were being aroused by things they didn't want to be aroused by. They felt that it had taught them negative lessons. They felt that had shaped that it. I mean, there's some research that shows that guys who are regular porn users are more likely to believe those images are true, more likely to want to act them on the bedroom, and they're more likely to, they're less satisfied with their partnered experiences, with their own performance, with their partner's bodies.

And so it was some of that kind of thing, like a boy who said that he had, he said, I don't know if it's totally porn driven, but I think it's certainly made a difference that I watch all this porn that I've developed a very, very specific idea of a female body that turns me on. And so when I'm with my girlfriend, and she doesn't, you know, she's saying she doesn't feel good about her body in some way, and I'm thinking, you know, I'm saying to her, no, no, I love your body, but I said privately, I'm thinking, but I wish your nipples were a little darker and a little larger, because that's really what I get off on when I'm looking at the porn stuff.

And he said, it just doesn't feel good to me. Right. And he doesn't know how to undo it, because that's all he's really, he doesn't know. Like who knows if that's driven by porn or not, I can't say. It must be though, right? I mean, how else would he have had these? That's what he says. That's what he says.

And so, you know, that kind of thing, he was just pondering that. Like, I don't know what kind of impact this had on me. I think I feel harmed by it. I can't say whether that's what harmed him, you know, that is the reason for that or not. But I can say he wasn't talking to anybody about it. That no, there was no adult that he could ask

any questions about that. And then the other bunch of boys were guys who would say, like, I know it's not real. I know the difference between fantasy and reality. And I think, really, because you've never actually liked Kista Girl. Right. How would you never say anyone naked?

You never say anybody naked. How would you do it right? And we know the research that that's not true, that the way media works, porn or, and we haven't, haven't I mean mainstream media is really easy to get down the rabbit hole the porn conversation mainstream media is a big issue too. Obviously. Yes. How media works is that it affects our thoughts feelings and beliefs and behavior even when we think it doesn't and especially when we think it doesn't which is why the Russians used media to undermine our democracy. Exactly, exactly. Because it works.

That's why advertising is effective. It's so true. So even when you're saying, I know that's not real, I know that the media doesn't affect me, it affects other people, whether it's porn, whether it's mainstream media, whatever it is, that's not true. No, because it's intellectual,

but it's affecting your Neuropath ways, your brainwashed, your housing to you, you can't it's affecting your neuro pathways your brain when you're Rousing to you you can't and you see things like with mainstream media. I talk about a study I'm sorry. I love talking about this stuff. I know there's a study that out of University of Massachusetts where they showed College guys they divided them into groups right and they showed one group like whatever cartoons or something and the other group They showed and edited together real of sex scenes from our rated movies. Our rated movies not excellent not porn and they said and they were all scenes that had been judged to include things that were degrading to women and but they were not violent so it was

like female set male satisfaction but not female satisfaction or you know Some kind of stripping thing that was where there was male domination and females, you know submission those sorts of things and When they afterwards they had the guys read all of them read one account of Stranger rape and one account of a Quaintance rape Okay, and they reacted the same way to the stranger rape that was wrong But the acquaintance rape the guys who just watched the reel of the R-rated movie stuff, were much more likely to say that the woman secretly wanted what happened and got what she deserved and enjoyed it. And that held steady regardless of their attitudes towards sex, regardless of

their attitudes towards porn, regardless of their attitudes towards gender and feminism. It was, it affected them immediately, and they call it a spillover effect of media. So there's a spillover effect of this stuff. Absolutely. I mean, how do they even, so if there is this spillover, of course, if that's all they're seeing, okay, so going back to the point, if that's all they're seeing, and then also you talk to women about porn, I mean, your book was like, if it's the same thing, a porn was still around when you did your book. Right, not, yes, yes, yes, yes it was.

And so, but the girls tended to look at it as a manual for what guys wanted. They're like, they're making the noises and they're moving in the surveys. And like, feeling a lot of body inadequacy. And the boys felt a lot of body inadequacy around it too, but the girls felt, I think, even more. So what are the boys saying that they look,

because the example of saying, like, I like your nipples this way, like there's a lot more of that I know in the book too, but about what boys are actually finding attract now, they might not have before. And it's scenarios, I feel like the choking thing comes out, I get a lot of cars. Yeah, the choking, so that's obviously that is straight out of porn.

Straight out of porn, because the old is that? It's, I mean, that 15 years ago. Yeah, and that is a really huge change in In American sexual behavior that that has shot up anal sexes shot up Yeah, that was not a thing. No, none of these things were things and There are things every day. There are things now. So so those that don't feel good I wouldn't think they have to do it. Maybe it feels good, but like you don't Maybe it does maybe it but it's looking at the know, what I was always looking at was like the motivation

and the experience and the nature of the experience. So like when you look at anal sex, there was a survey of kids 16 to 18 in England about anal sex. And what came out of it was that it was something that the guys were doing not as an active intimacy with a partner, but as a competition with other guys. They thought that girls would have to be coerced into it, and that they could be coerced into it. The girls reported finding it painful, not surprisingly. And both sexes, this was a kind of interesting part, blamed that on the girls,

sexes. This was a kind of interesting part, blamed that on the girls, saying that they couldn't relax. They were naive. They were flawed. You know. Women were so easy. We take, we always take the responsibility. We do blame ourselves, but especially with anal. I could see that. I mean, yeah. But we're talking about high school students. So the rates among high school students are still very quite low, but they're much higher than they were. Right. And college students, I know. And college students, I mean, the rates among college students are significantly higher than they used to be.

And again, maybe that's fine. Maybe that's about experimentation. Maybe that's about pleasure. If that's true, that's fine. But we know that when on the largest survey of American sexual behavior, when anal sex is included, that 70% of women report pain in their sexual encounters. Because they're not doing it right? They're not doing it right.

They don't know because they're saying, Again, we don't educate around that. Whether we're talking about two people with penises having anal sex or anal play, or people with a penis and people with a vagina. We don't discuss or evolve. We don't discuss the correct way that would make that a pleasurable experience. That's super taboo in sex. And that's one of the, I don't know, if you watch the movie Sex Education.

Yes. Oh yeah. I mean, not the movie, the Netflix. Yes, I'm on season two, episode three. So in season two, I don't know if you've gotten to the part yet But they they end up having a whole conversation about preparation for anal sex Very good. It's very good and it really shows a Way to do that that is perfectly appropriate. Right. That's yeah, I mean I did you Yeah, which is not

Encouraging it's not really the The use of the loop, we talk about on the show a lot. Yeah, it's not about like encouraging a behavior or saying, hey, go do this or anything, but it's about understanding human sexual behavior in a positive way. So whatever you choose to do, you will be doing it well and pleasurably and not hurting the other partner

and thinking that that's okay. That's just people to show. Well, that's the other thing about porn, where I believe is that like they don't show the warm, but they don't show the lube, they don't show the breathing, the consent, and you're just, it goes right, the how easily it goes in the ass.

Exactly, it goes in easily, there's no mess, there's no fuss, it feels good immediately, there's no pain, and that's what they're seeing. They're seeing at some very young ages in the porn, which I do believe, and I do believe in porn addiction. I'm like, I don't even need to label it, but there is a porn problem. There was a porn challenge right now

that is happening, especially if young, man and women, that's all that they're seeing with sex. How could it not impact their brain? And then if we are not having those conversations, nobody's having those conversations, you've got the sex educator right there. And mainstream media too. I mean, mainstream media is not giving them healthy messages.

Either, and we understand that with girls, we understand that with, you know, pretty broadly, we understand now, that there are a lot of harmful messages bombarding girls about women and about sex in the media. And we, as, you know, parents, teachers, activists, whatever, therapists, we do a lot to help girls have a more critical lens so that they can resist some of that. We don't say anything

to boys. Nothing to boys. They've used, they've learned nothing about this. Nothing. Right. And then they're in the same stew, turned up hotter. And, and you know, like one guy said to me, I don't, you know, I think music has a really big influence on how guys treat girls. Like you're a, he was a high school boy. He's like you're driving around in the car with your guys all the time And you're hearing fuck that bitch and quitter four or five ten times in the space of two hours. Yeah, of course it affects her mind So of course it there we go media again. That's what you're hearing Yeah, I must fuck this bitch and quit her if that's what it's say that's what I'm hearing in my head like that's what you do It's just you don't even know or eyes intimately

It's affecting you cradle her face and kiss her. Take her to a nice demil, it's not saying that. It's in quitter, kick her out of your car. Yeah, not helpful. Yeah, so that, I mean, he was just like, you know, that I see guys thinking that way, you know, that that's the ideal. That's racking up the body count.

And who cares about the person? And her interests, whether it's physical or emotional, are really not part of the ideal. That's racking up the body count and who cares about the person and her interests, whether it's physical or emotional, are really not part of the burden. Now, you know, a lot of guys that obviously don't do that. A lot of guys work their way through that, but there's just so much harm and misunderstanding and... It's so much harm and they have to undo that from all these years. But, you know, whether it's drinking or sexual assaulting campus, I know people really open to you about that as well in the book.

Yeah, yeah, the guys, I mean, there was a chapter called, I know I'm a good guy, but, dot, dot, dot. And it's such, I actually wanted to call the book that for a while, because I heard that so much. Yeah, oh, I'm sure, yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, and also I want to talk about hilarious. Yeah, that's good too. Yeah, so, yeah. So with these, you know, you know, I'm a good guy, but this one time, but this one time or yeah, and and a lot of,

you know, and so there was a lot of that was about we think only monsters commit sexual assault and anyone who commits sexual assault or sexual misconduct is a monster. And that blinds it. And so by transitive property, then I'll try this. I'm an English major man, sorry, but I'm a good guy. Therefore a good guy cannot commit misconduct. So whatever it was I just did could not possibly be misconduct. Right. Yeah, that's what's about right.

Yeah. And so you press it and not think about it. And it goes right. Right. And guys, what research shows is that guys will, if, like they understand the definition of consent, there's this research actually out of Michigan. Okay, okay. Where they, they could articulate a very clear definition of, incorrect definition of consent. But when they're at, then they were asked about their last took up and their last relationship

sex, sex and last took up and their last relationship, sex and last took up and last relationship. And when their actions didn't meet the definition, they expanded the definition rather than questioning their actions because a good guy can't possibly have engaged him as conduct, you know. And which is probably partly why the rates of sexual assault have not changed. I was hoping they were, but... Yeah, no, they haven't. Why would they if they haven't said anything to men?

Right. And that said, I will say that the guys, what was hopeful and promising, was that the guys that I was talking to were telling me about these experiences where they hadn't been good guys, or were they were concerned that they hadn't been good guys, maybe they had, maybe they hadn't, they didn't know. We're wrestling with them and that I think five or ten years ago They wouldn't have even questioned them right a lot of the things that it would have asked them it would have come up You wouldn't even come up and it was coming up and they were thinking like

Was that okay? Was that not okay? I think it might not have been okay? What do I do if it wasn't okay? So it wasn't like what weren't me meaning like they someone was drunk or passed out or they Well or somebody didn't say yes, but didn't say no. She just lay there Like I don't know what that meant. Maybe it was fine Maybe she was you know like just Interested, you know like wanted to see what would happen. Maybe she froze and it wasn't consensual and she's walking around feeling traumatized. Maybe, you know, this particular guy had, they then had intercourse a couple more times that was clearly consensual and then she dumped him flat. Maybe she was trying to make it okay

after having a non-consensual experience. So she had to do consensual experiences and then thought, okay, I'm done. Maybe she just didn't like him. I don't know. He doesn't know. So he, a year later, after this had happened, we were talking, and he was, we were talking, this guy was a big hook up artist guy. And he sort of stopped and said,

I didn't think I was gonna talk about this with you, but, okay, I wanna talk about it. And he was wrestling with like, what should I do about that? How should I, should I call, you know, he said, I probably should call her and find out, but, you know, I'm not going to do that. Right. And so just kind of, so that was really interesting. And then also I went, I really struggled with how to, how to add something to the discussion about campus sexual assault.

And so what I ended up doing was a chapter on a restorative justice process, and which is something where there's an emphasis on healing, accountability, and justice, but not necessarily punishment. Because a lot of cases, especially on campus, especially in friend groups, let's just say it's a girl who's been harmed, she doesn't necessarily want the guy expelled or jailed

or suspended. She might, and that's fair. But if she doesn't, she just wants him to understand how he caused harm and to take responsibility for it and to not do it again. Right. Exactly. That's what we all want. Right. And so this was a sort of alternative process that allowed for that. And I tell the story of two people, a guy and a girl.

And it's a kind of spin on, he said, she said, because I go back and forth between them as they narrate what happened and the aftermath. That's amazing. And it's a really important chapter to me because it should, like, he just thinks he's had a bad hook up. And she's a really important chapter to me because it should like he just thinks he's had a bad hook up and she's like I was just assaulted and she's right, right, you know, but his socialization has just led him into a false assumption and that's what I always say it's not miscommunication. It's false assumption. And no one's exactly and it's false what your mind allows you to interpret it because you're not telling anybody. So you're like I don't want to think I'm a bad person. Right. is what happened. And they're not able to.

And so he has he recognizes at a certain point through things happen. And he recognizes that he has done something that qualifies as a salt. And he falls apart, man, because he can't imagine that he's not a monster then. And it's about, you know, how does he put himself back together, stand up and actually be a man, right? You a man, and take responsibility for this, and move forward as a better person who will do better in the world himself and in talking to his friends and others and educating others. And he does that.

And it's the most incredible thing to watch. It's incredible. It's such an inspiring story, because you're like, this could happen. We could have this. Yeah, because he's not, there's nothing unusual about this guy. He doesn't start out in a particularly progressive place or particularly fun.

I mean, he's like, he said he grew up with van wilder movies and porn and uncles who told him, it's not a good night out unless you get somebody's phone number and grind non-consensually against a bunch of girls. And he was coercive with previous partners and just wanted to get to his fr coercive with previous partners and you know just wanted to get to his frat get drunk and you know bang bang whoever's up yeah he was there was nothing like unusual about him right and the fact that he could that's a nice transformation

right that is just means that other guys could too it's really required reading right and it's an after the fact thing not ideal but at least it's a thing well it's a thing at least it's an after the fact thing not ideal, but at least it's a thing. Well, it's a thing. He's just an alternative and it will take and it took him it made it created an opportunity For him to be the man that he actually did want to be and then I think a lot of guys want to change is the whole life No one cuz he had no one wants to be that guy changes life trajectory No one says I'm gonna be this asshole. They in their head. They're thinking I'm not an asshole No, I'm not an asshole and I want a relationship Maybe they want kids. And this is the way they're going out.

When he talks about his coercive behavior, first of all, it's a girl that he likes a lot. Right, right. Let's talk about that. The girl that he, I mean, it's what he does. He forces her, he holds her head down and forces her to have oral sense. And he thinks, yeah, he thinks he's just,

as he said, he thought he was just being a teacher and a nice guy because she wasn't very experienced. And he really liked her. He wanted to like go out with her. And she's like, never spoke, you know, she was like, out of there, you know, and going on her own.

And she's like, I'm showing you, this is where I want. Yeah, this is how you do this. And she's just thinking, no, no, no, no, no. And so, you know, he's not sitting there thinking, I am a bad guy forcing this girl to do this, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's not what's happening. But he has a lot of false assumptions and a lot of socialization as a guy going into that room.

Because this is the thing that he wasn't separate early on. He had the uncle. He had the answer. He said, this is, you know, this is what sex should be. This is what coercion is. This is what these things are. Of course, he, you know, he said they had the consent thing when he started college. Like the, you know, you have like, class, right, like 45 minutes. 45 minute class. And he thought, oh, I would be the guy. If I saw some guy dropping a roofie into a girl's drink, who would, you know, intervene

and, you know, beat that guy up and take the drink away. Like, I'm not good guy, right? So he would never think that he was the guy who was causing harm. And he was a lovely guy. And he became a real lovely guy through this process. And again, shouldn't have come at the expense of somebody else that that had to happen. But you could see that, you know, that he was very ordinary. And there's nothing monstrous about him. But he just had a whole whole basket of bad socialization that needed to be examined and hadn't been. And if it had been, he might have been that

guy before he got to that room. And it's just that's a thing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's so well done. It is a good, it is a good example of how not being checked, never being talked about it being filled with all this information, starting at porn at a young age and then hearing from his uncles, his family, and then his friends reinforcing it. No one ever steps into intervene along the way. And then he finds himself with like pushing that, that's what I've seen.

Right. And this is what happens. Right. And he said in retrospect, like pushing that, that's what I've seen. She don't want to know this is what happens. So, right. And he said in retrospect, he knows that's not the first time that he did something like that. He just thought that was what you did. Yeah. Right, I think my first boyfriend did that.

Now I'm seeing a remembering that my boyfriend, but I was like 16, and I remember him like doing that. Like I, like this is how you do it. Put your head down. I was like, I don't really want to, but you know what I mean like doing that. Like I like this is how you do it. Put your head down. I was like, I don't really want to, but you know what I mean? Like that.

Because that's our association. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, exactly. And that's another way, that's another way that the books were so much in conversation. And I talk about gay guys as being sort of a model of consent, right, of negotiating those terms of a, and you see that in you know, in queer

spaces and kinky spaces, kinky spaces, that there's much more navigating and explicit discussion of what the parameters are of an experience, and Dan Savage, who's sex commoners, of course, you know, right? So he talks about the four magic words that gay guys use at the start of an encounter, which are what are you into? Which is exactly the kind of open-ended question that, as opposed to when we put it in a heterosexual conversation,

what we tend to talk about is a series of yes or no questions that a guy is asking a girl and that she's responding to. Yes, no, right, that's not it. So that's lovely and open ended. And I worry that if a guy who was a teenager or a young adult said to a girl, what are you into? She would say, I don't know. Well, this is the thing. Right. And that's how those books are in conversation. I know. That's how they are talking to each other. And that's how the socialization of guys and girls works to

That's how they are talking to each other and that's how the socialization of guys and girls works to In such a great example to undermine Communication and connection for everybody and that goes back to for a circle of women your book to like women Girls and sexes what Girls don't know women don't know what they want all ages women don't know what they want and that they do know even a little bit They're afraid to ask for what they want because they're going to be rejected. It's going to be weird. They're not going to get it. They're going to slip.

Or it's going to be a burden. Or you take up too much time. It's going to take up too much time. It's going to end you then you feel guilt and then you can't do it. You can't feel it anyway. Exactly. Exactly. That's why I think the first lesson, and this is why I talk about day and day out, is

that the first lesson for women and for men, but especially women right now is what do you want? What do you like? What feels good to you? And that starts with masturbation, communicative sex, figuring out what didn't I like about that experience? Right. Flip side of that. Well, what might I like? What might work for me next time so you can't have an answer to that question? Because I remember for years before I even started this show, I would be with guys and they'd be like, does that feel good? Do you like it? And I would just say, yeah, yeah, everything is great. Because I was like, I'm not going to say no. I know where to go from here. I don't know what else to do in this situation to make this better.

Where was I just wanted to be over? In some cases. Right. Many cases. Now they look back, right? So, but even still, I feel this was so many women just I don't they don't know what they want. Yeah. And I and I would say I mean the stats are that only 40% of teenage girls 14 to 17 have masturbated even once. Yeah, I know We got it so 60% never have and when I would talk to girls when I was doing girls in sex They would say well, I have a boyfriend to do that and you know That's the same guy who's like rummaging around like he's looking for a set of keys and he's like, he's not nobody's doing. They've never had an orgasm. And like, but the

boys, they would never say, I'm not going to masturbate because I have a girlfriend. No, they would not. And I still have my married friend, well, my friends, but or women I meet out, well, no, I don't need a vibrator. I don't masturbate. I have a partner. Like this notion in many ways, I mean, this book, that's why your books are so groundbreaking and important reads, I think, for it, I have a partner. Like this notion, in many ways, I mean, that's why your books are so groundbreaking and important reads, I think, for everyone. Men, women, parents, adults, children, everybody to realize that this is still what we're at. And there's a lot, there's so many more places

to go right now with this conversation, but it's so important that we just educate ourselves on what we want, what actually feels good to us. Which seems like, I always tell you, it's fun homework, it's like a to us. Which seems like, you know, I always tell you, it's fun homework, it's like a good thing. Like sex is about pleasure. Can we put the fun back into sex?

But no one's gonna be able to teach you that. I mean, one of the things I think was, someday my principal come and so will I? I was my big like, I really believe that. He's gonna right up on this white horse and he's gonna show me everything about my body because I was certain like I knew nothing. And that never happened. I wasn't one of those women that just oh I had an organ, you know, I didn't come at all until I took it into my own hands.

Well, or you are lucky if you happen as a woman to meet a partner that is collaborative and open in that way. Yeah. You can, you know, you're lucky and then you discover a lot, but it's kind of happens, dance. It's luck. Exactly. So we're, and then also with these ages white, so interesting that to choose from 16 to 22, like they're not, they're not there yet.

Many of them are not going to be there yet. So hopefully we see now people reading this book and hearing your messages that they realize, like, oh yeah, it's an incentive to even start younger talking to kids, but meeting them also where they're at. Yeah. Because we want those adults out there. We want them to move into the world as, you know, caring, loving partners.

You get a Terry and reciprocal, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I used to say with girls all the time that I didn't, I just didn't want their early experiences to be something they had to get over. Yeah. And I still very strongly believe that. And I don't know that guys early experiences are, sometimes they are, sometimes they have to get over for sure. Yes, we hear that. But I also don't want to, I want their early experiences not only to be ones in which they don't cause harm, but that are actually pleasurable, reciprocal, sustaining.

You know, they deserve that too. We all deserve it. Well, thank you so much. Peggy Ornstein for your work, for your book. This is such an important work that you're doing, talking to them. And because I think the way you write it and the way you really are getting into their minds and the brains and their lives of kids, all diverse sector of boys in this book and girls in the other book is such an eye opener.

And it's, I had never really read anything else like this work before. So when I first read the girls and then boys and I think it's just, it's a great service and I hope it just opens up people's minds start talking today. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here. Thanks to my awesome team. Ken, Kristen, Alisa, Brian, our interns, producer Jamie, and Michael. Was it good for you? email me feedback at sexwithamlee.com