Sex With Emily - Ejaculation Education w/ Gabrielle Blair

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Why is it that vulva owners are the ones tasked with preventing pregnancy? That’s the burning question we’ve all been thinking about since 2017.  On today’s throwback show, we’re diving into this hot topic with Gabrielle Stanley Blair, the mastermind behind a viral thread and the book, Ejaculate Responsibly. Joining us is my dear friend, anthropologist, and author, Dr. Wednesday Martin, to help unpack this loaded discussion. In our post-Roe world, Gabrielle—mother of six and a devout Mormon—is fiercely advocating for the importance of women’s lives and their pleasure. Get ready for an eye-opening conversation! In this episode you’ll learn:  How society pressures vulva owners to become mothers Why MORE sex ed leads to LESS unwanted pregnancies How to talk to young penis owners about ejaculating responsibly Show Notes: Join me for a Sexual Wellness Weekend in Canyon Ranch! Take the SWE Listener Survey Here! Gabrielle’s Viral Twitter Thread Ejaculate Responsibly SHOP WITH EMILY! (free shipping on orders over $99) The only sex book you’ll ever need: Smart Sex: How to Boost Your Sex IQ and Own Your Pleasure Want more? Sex With Emily: Home Let’s get social: Instagram | X | Facebook | TikTok  Let’s text: Sign Up Here Want me to slide into your inbox? Sign Up Here for sex tips on the regular. See the full show notes at sexwithemily.com.

It is not controversial to say that in current practice, in current cultural expectations, women do the work of pregnancy prevention, period. And in the case that a pregnancy occurs, women carry 100% of the burden for the pregnancy. So all the work of pregnancy prevention and then all the work of dealing with the burden of a pregnancy. Whether they decide to have an abortion, whether they decide to have a baby, whether they have a miscarriage, they don't have a choice. They have to deal with this pregnancy that they did not cause.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. When it comes to sex, why was the world set up so that vulva owners are the ones in charge of preventing a pregnancy? That's the central question of a Twitter thread that went viral in 2018. And on today's show, I've got Gabrielle Stanley Blair,

the author of that thread, and a book, Ejaculate Responsibly, here to talk about it. I'm also joined by anthropologist, author, and my dear friend Dr. Wensey Martin to unpack this fascinating topic. So in a post-war world, Gabrielle is calling for a shift in the way we think about pregnancy prevention, namely by inviting penis owners and their bodies into the conversation. So on today's show, we talk condoms and sexual pleasure, how society pressures vulva owners to become mothers, how to talk to young men about ejaculating responsibly, why more sex

ed leads to less unwanted pregnancies, and why Gabrielle, mother of six and a Mormon is passionate about arguing that women's lives matter. Oh, and so does their pleasure. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show, because when you do that, it helps get the show out to more sex positive people like you.

It just takes two seconds and you can do it right now. You can also find me on all social media, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, all the places at Sex with Emily. And check out my new articles, how to have great morning sex and seven embarrassing sex questions, masturbation edition. with Emily and check out my new articles, How to Have Great Morning Sex and Seven Embarrassing Sex Questions, Masturbation Edition. Those are up on SexWithEmily.com. Okay, one more quick thing before

we get into the episode. I'm so excited to announce that I'm doing something for the very first time and I hope you're going to join me. So I'm hosting an intimate women's retreat at Cannon Ranch Wellness Resort and Spa in Tucson, Arizona. It's coming up. It's June 27th to June 30th, 2024. So we're going to spend four days and three nights together where I'm going to answer all of your questions in person. I'm so excited to meet you and have intimate discussions throughout the weekend about pleasure and sexuality, sexual intelligence. We'll have a special retail pop-up experience. We'll have cocktails. I'll also have all my favorite product recommendations. And I just hope you're gonna join me.

You can also experience all of Canyon Ranch's incredible offerings. They have over 200 wellness classes, courses, fitness journeys, all the things you wanna do are at Canyon Ranch. So please join me. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes and you can also find more information

at sexwithemily.com slash live. That's sexwithemily.com slash live and I just can't wait to see you there. Alright everyone enjoy this episode. In this show you're gonna hear information that reframes the responsibility of pregnancy and abortion from the amazing Gabrielle Blair and one of my dear friends, the brilliant Dr. Wednesday Martin. Gabrielle Blair is a mother of six, a Mormon and the founder of Design Mom, an award-winning 15-year blog devoted to the intersection of design and motherhood. In 2018, Gabrielle's Twitter thread on unwanted

pregnancies went viral, prompting her book Ejaculate Responsibly, a whole new way to think about abortion. Find more Gabrielle on social media at DesignMom or online at DesignMom.com. Dr. Wednesday Martin is a social scientist with a background in anthropology and primatology, a feminist cultural critic, and a number one New York Times bestselling author who focuses on gender, motherhood, parenting, and female sexuality. She's the author of Untrue, Why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women, Lust, and Infidelity Is Wrong, and How the New Science Can Set Us Free.

I love that book. Find more Wednesday at WednesdayMartin.com, on Twitter at Wednesday Martin, or on Instagram at Wednesday Martin PhD. Welcome to the show Gabrielle. It is so wonderful to meet you. To start things off, I would love if you could read a part of your viral Twitter thread for listeners who've not read it yet. Also for those listening, we will link the full thread in our show notes. But before we ever start reading, I understand that we're only reading part of the thread, but to say that men are 100% responsible for 100% of unwanted pregnancies could be like,

oh God, I'm tuning out. What is Emily talking about? But I want you to listen for a minute because what we're saying here is that there's really just no unwanted pregnancy unless a man ejaculates because pregnancy just can't happen without a sperm. And the other thing I want to say is if a penis ejaculates it has an orgasm. So there's an orgasm that happens

no matter what. For a penis. What I like about ejaculate responsibly is no matter where you are, whether you're pro-chice or pro-life, I thought this was so important because over all these years, two decades of studying sex and human sexuality, I've never thought about it this way. And since I'm so focused on pleasure and giving you ways to have more of it in your sex life, well the opposite about pleasure is worry and anxiety and specifically about pregnancy. I just would love all the penis havers to just think a little bit differently. Are there other options?

You know, the condom, share the responsibility for birth control, like paying for it. And one more thing that we've established that men have an orgasm when they ejaculate, but most vulva owners don't have one during penetration. Only 17% have one. So really this just sets up a new debate about pleasure and responsibility. And I think you're going to find it fascinating. I'm a mother of six and a Mormon. So I have a good understanding of arguments surrounding abortion, religious and otherwise.

I've been listening to men grandstand about women's reproductive rights. And I'm convinced men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion. Here's why. If you want to stop abortion, you need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And men cause 100 percent of unwanted pregnancies. No, for real, they do. Perhaps you are thinking, it takes two. And yes, it does take two for intentional pregnancies, but all unwanted pregnancies

are caused by the irresponsible ejaculations of men. Period. Don't believe me? Let me walk you through it. Let's start with this. With rare exceptions, a woman's eggs are only fertile about two days each month. And that's for a limited number of years.

That makes 24 days a year a woman is fertile. But men are fertile and can cause pregnancy 365 days a year. In fact, if you're a man who ejaculates multiple times a day, you could cause multiple pregnancies daily. In theory, a man could cause a thousand plus unwanted pregnancies in just one year. And though their sperm gets crappier as they age, men can cause unwanted pregnancies from puberty till death.

So just starting with basic biology, plus the calendar, it's easy to see men are the real issue here. Wow. I mean, Mike Drop, how have we not thought about this before? I mean, you really do go on to just reframe the entire abortion debate without even talking about abortion entirely and then just saying like men are 100% responsible for unmar unwanted pregnancies. I love how this is a complete paradigm shift really, right?

Because we used to think, oh, men out of the goodness of their heart, or if they're allies, or if they're good guys, they will join us in this fight, right? Because we have to reestablish our rights after Rose been overturned. We used to think they'll do this out of goodness of their heart. You're saying, well, they should, because they're responsible for these pregnancies. But I love how you're inviting men to be more involved because they're more responsible. Right. A lot of people get upset that I'm, you know, dealing with

an absolute here that I say 100% of unwanted pregnancies and men cause all unwanted pregnancies. But it's just a biological fact. Ovulation is involuntary. We don't get to choose when we ovulate. We have no control over that. But ejaculation is totally voluntary. Men impregnate, women are impregnated.

And I know, I know, I know people just really wanna say, it takes two, it takes two. And I wanna say, sure, it takes two for sex. Like people are having sex all over the world right this minute. I hope they're having a fabulous time and no unwanted pregnancies will occur unless a man decides to ejaculate irrespectively.

And anyway, so I just wanna say like, it doesn't take two to cause an unwanted pregnancy, it takes two plus sperm. Now you wrote this Twitter thread in 2018, probably having no idea how it would become even more urgent, right? And prescient and necessary. I know that the Twitter thread got a lot of attention at the time. But then there was Twitter thread got a lot of attention at the time, but then there was a re-upping of it because it was so very relevant. Can you just talk about

what the reactions were? Yeah, so in 2018, I wrote it or I actually wrote it before I published it a few months, but I published it during the Kavanaugh hearings. I don't know if you remember the Kavanaugh hearings, but there was a lot of, you know, male politicians talking about women's bodies, talking about, um, just kind of lecturing women about abortion. And it was driving me absolutely bonkers. And I'm like, I'm going to share this thread. And so I did. And the reaction was swift. It was super fast. It took off immediately. And it was my very first Twitter thread. So I didn't totally know how to handle it. But it was amazing to me. Like, for sure people want to argue,

but by far what I was seeing, and this just could be my Twitter settings are, except I don't see the worst of it, but most people were very positive about it. I mean, I was getting thank you notes and just like outpouring of tears of like, oh, I have never even thought about like this. I'm a feminist. I try to advocate for myself. And I've never even considered that. Holy cow, my husband should really get a vasectomy. We're

done having kids. It's his turn now. And then men going, Oh my goodness, I, this is a huge perspective shift for me. I'm going to respond differently to my girlfriend as far as supporting her in birth control, what can I do to help? What can I pay for? And lots and lots of men saying, I called my doctor. I made an appointment for a vasectomy. I'm going to take responsibility for my body. So the response has been wonderful.

And then basically what happened is every time abortion has hit the news, the threat would take off again. And at some point, it sort of felt to me like, surely everyone's seen this by now. But it's amazing. Every single day, I'll get tweets. And I mean that literally. Even now, all these years later,

where people are finding it for the first time and these ideas are still new to them. And I'm so excited about the book because it's just gonna be really accessible for people in a way that Twitter isn't always not everyone's comfortable reading a Twitter thread. I Mean, I really think the book is breaking down like the biology so people just understand that it's really just the facts I mean ever since I read it my jaw dropped I was like and I can't stop thinking about it because I was thinking about my whole process of like I was 18 years old

I went to the gynecologist. I got my birth control, I went up to college, I had a lot of side effects, didn't really know it was birth control or not. Over the years, I just thought I have to be on the pill or then when I was off the pill, like got to get condoms. I always had condoms, like I just took it on. I didn't even question it. To think that like all these ways in my life and all the money I've spent, the doctors going to gynecologists, that you just point out so many things that it rarely

occurred to me to ask my partner to contribute to pregnancy prevention either by sharing the cost of birth control or simply just having a conversation about who will be responsible. Condoms are easy, they're free, they're cheap, you know, like everyone can have them. We would absolutely prevent all the unwanted pregnancies. When you just start reading this you're, I don't even know what there is to argue about because basically, there's not this isn't even really controversial. Like to me, what is the controversy? It's like just new information and people should be like, Namaste, thank you, didn't

know this. Right. It is not controversial to say that in current practice, in current cultural expectations, women do the work of pregnancy prevention, period. And in the case that a pregnancy occurs, women carry 100% of the burden for the pregnancy. So all the work of pregnancy prevention, and then all the work of dealing with the burden of a pregnancy, whether they decide to have an abortion, whether they decide to have the baby, whether they have a miscarriage, they don't have a choice. They have to deal with this pregnancy that they did not cause.

You know, I want to say something that I so relate to what Emily said, that as a young woman, you get indoctrinated into this belief system that since you're the one who can get pregnant, right, and carry the pregnancy to term or not, it's all on you. And another cultural reflection of this burden is men who say, I don't want to wear a condom. I don't like the way it feels. And I want to read another part of your Twitter thread, which

you didn't get to, which is absolutely amazing to me. You said, while we're here, let's talk a bit more about pleasure and biology. Did you know that a man can't get a woman pregnant without having an orgasm? Which means that we can conclude getting a woman pregnant is a pleasurable act for men. But did you further know that men can get a woman pregnant

without her feeling any pleasure at all? In fact, it's totally possible for a man to impregnate a woman even while causing her excruciating pain. Okay, the point being, wow, Emily being the one who has to go there in college and get the birth control and take care of and worry about getting pregnant, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, it's all pleasure for this guy, right? And I love how you're just saying, can we just balance this equation? Jesus, okay, tell us in practical terms,

did you ever hear a guy say to you, I don't wanna wear a condom, it just doesn't feel good to say? And I think every woman has heard that. And in terms of ejaculating responsibly, I feel like that utterance, I don't want to wear a condom, it doesn't feel good to me, gets to the heart in a way

of what you're trying to reframe here. Yeah, 100%. And it's a very deep cultural thing. Like I didn't grow up, I grew up Mormon, we didn't talk a ton about sex in our community, in our home. And I knew that men don't like condoms or that that was the idea.

Like I definitely knew that going into adulthood. How would I even know that? Like maybe movies, maybe music, I don't know. But it's just this deep part. This is like long before I've ever had sex or knew anything really about what that process is like in real life, I knew that there's this antagonistic view of condoms.

And it's interesting because I did not expect this, but since I shared the thread and have had thousands of conversations about it since, so many men have said, oh, actually, condoms are fine. You just have to practice. You need to figure out what kind you want, make sure you don't have a latex allergy, figure out which lubrication works for you. Some men like lubrication inside the condom

and outside the condom. Practice. And then they're telling me it's not a big deal. In the thread, I mentioned a pleasure scale. I'm saying, OK, so men don't like to use condoms because it doesn't feel as good. But what does that mean? Is it, if sex without a condom is a 10

and like zero is neutral and say a nice back rub is a five, where does sex with a condom fall? And I was guessing like seven, eight, you know, I don't know, I'm not a man. So many men have replied saying, no, it's a 9.5, 9.8. Like once you know how to use a condom. Yeah, it's so brilliant. I have to.8, like once you know how to use a condom. Yeah. It's so brilliant.

I have to say that I love that part of the thread. I'm so glad that you read that here, Wednesday, because first off, my show is all about pleasure, right? How do we get people to have more pleasure, less pain? Two things to say here, the majority of women are not going to have orgasms through penetration and they might have some pleasure, I hope, but definitely not going to have orgasms. You think that's the apex of pleasure. 100% of pregnancies pretty much are going to, are caused by an orgasm of pleasure from penis owners, as we say on the show. To me, it's like, there's, that's already saying that women are starting in

a deficit and then they're going to get pregnant. We know like it's joy to have a baby, you know, you have life in your body, but it's not always, you know, pleasurable. I mean, I've had six babies. I have experienced pregnancy lots of times. I had as normal in quotes pregnancy, like uneventful as you can have all six times. And still it scars your body. There's huge amounts of pain. You're incredibly uncomfortable.

It causes permanent damage. Even in the most normal uneventful pregnancy, it causes permanent damage. And we the most normal, uneventful pregnancy, it causes permanent damage and we do not talk about that we act like I don't know this part drives me crazy anytime there's an abortion conversation happening and someone sort of casually suggesting that women just need to carry out the pregnancy. I'm like, do you not understand what a massive ask that is? There's it it is a hugely, hugely damaging thing to a body. It takes your body basically to the brink of death. It maxes out every system

in your body. And then you have the baby. It's insane. And just for reference, it is, you're more likely to die from pregnancy in America right now than to die on the job as a police officer. And you know, we talk about you're one and a half times more, like it's significantly more. And for black women, it's even higher, right? For black women, it's much higher. It's so dangerous to be a pregnant black woman in America right now.

And not just because of the pregnancy and childbirth, which is so hard on your body, but also because the number one cause of death of pregnant women is murder. Like your most vulnerable time to just be a woman is when you're pregnant. It's a terrifying statistic and it's super real. I don't know what you can say beyond that, that if that doesn't sort of like shift your perspective on how dangerous pregnancy is, I don't know what else to say. I mean, like, it's more dangerous than pretty much any job we ask people to do. And I know in our heads, the most, you know, masculine jobs, the really tough jobs seem like the most dangerous. But 84% of women will have a baby and many of them more than one time.

And there is nothing that we ask men to do, that we ask 84% of men to do, that is even close to as dangerous. There's just nothing. You can say the military, you can say dangerous jobs, but we don't ask 84% of men to do those things. Not even close. We don't ask 84% of men to have such a burden, like have something on their body that we know it's going to be incredible because you're going to give life. Like we can all agree to that, but you're going to have a baby. But just the

responsibility and like what you're saying, when it goes to your body and your health, like it's just a huge undertaking. It's not just like, Hey, can you do this favor for me? It's like, no, you're carrying a baby. I want to circle back to one thing to do about condoms. The interesting thing is we could prevent all these unwanted pregnancies because what I love about this thread and what I love about what you're writing and your ejaculate responsibly in your book is that no matter what side you're on, pro-life, pro-choice, we all want to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And so this is the way of doing it. Condoms just had really good, like the bad condom thing had great PR because exactly what you're saying, people just don't know how to do it right. You got to put a little

lube in it. You got to find your right condom. Latex condoms aren't great for everybody, but once you find it, you're like, oh, this is just it. And you're still going to have an orgasm and maybe it's not a 10, it's a 9.5. But then you have to worry about pregnancies or STDs. Like it just makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. It's so profound, but it's so simple. I love Emily's point and your point, Gabrielle. It's like most people don't know how to use condoms. And I think this might be like an unexpected thing

that comes out of this whole Twitter thread that you did and this whole reversal of Ro and everything is that people are gonna have to start finding pleasure in other ways. And I love the very practical hacks that you suggested Gabrielle and that Emily and I suggest all the time. Maybe you want lube on the inside as well. Maybe you have a latex allergy experiment, try different condoms. But before we get to that point, what do we say to men who say, I don't like wearing a condom, it doesn't

feel good. I want to know what you and Emily, how you would respond to that. Because I know that that literally millions of vulva and vagina and clit havers have encountered somebody saying that, like is the thing to say like, well, you know, you have to ejaculate responsibly. Or what do we want women to say who find themselves in that position? Say the guy has not read ejaculate responsibly, unfortunately, or been educated about it. Let's talk about these very practical issues that vulva and vagina include, however space. Two thoughts come to mind. Um, one is, and I'm going to sort of, uh, quote myself for the thread, probably badly at one point I say, so men are choosing to have condomless sex and by so doing, they're risking the health, the, the

career, the social status, the, the life of this partner they're having sex with. And they're doing that in order to experience slightly more pleasure. Like that's like from 9.5 to 10. Like that's really the decision that's happening there. If you can help a man understand that, that that's the decision he's making. Like you are about to risk my life, you're about to risk my career, my family relationships, everything, my

ability to earn money, so that you can experience slightly more pleasure for a few minutes, like not even for like the rest of your life. This is just a very short thing. If you can help them understand that, that's great. But the other thing that comes to mind is, we don't always know how our partner is going to react to a question like that. There are a lot of women that don't feel safe, insisting on a condom, even with someone that they're having a great time with. And

this is consensual sex, and they're happy to be there. Because there's no way to know who is going to react in anger. We just don't know. If we knew, obviously we could avoid them. And so it is tricky. And I don't know the perfect thing to say to convince someone because I think people have been in that position where they definitely feel pressure. I think it's fairly universal based on a lot of tweets

I see that go viral of someone saying, actually, men, you know, refuse condoms all the time. And lots of, you know, lots of people going, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's familiar. I mean, so many people feel pressured to not use a condom. And to, I don't know, it's such a deep cultural thing, not just that condoms are bad, but that the man's pleasure, the penis-hovers pleasure is the most important thing in the sexual act.

It's really prioritized. And well, I'm sure you guys can confirm, but like in any, you know, historical sort of demonstrations of sex or descriptions of sex, or even when they're trying to do studies measuring how long does sex take, they measure that based on when the man has an ejaculation.

It's like sex begins and ends with the man. And obviously that's nonsense, as the three of us all experience our bodies differently than that. And anyway, but it's, we really do prioritize the man's experience. And so it's thousand years or however many thousands of years of cultural baggage on our shoulders telling us

you gotta prioritize his experience. So if he doesn't wanna wear a condom, it's a lot of pressure. After the break, Gabrielle, Wednesday and I break down how comprehensive sex education is vital to reducing unwanted pregnancies. Hey there, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that I am not

afraid to get a little personal, but this time I am flipping the script. I want to get to know you better. That's right, you've been listening to me talk about the ins and outs of intimacy and now it's your turn to spill the tea. In a survey form, of course. I'm conducting a survey that's all about you and your thoughts on sex with Emily. Why? Because your opinions are the secret sauce to our success and I'm all about you and your thoughts on sex with Emily. Why? Because your opinions are the secret sauce to our success

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And your responses can remain anonymous. That's gum.fm.swe or just click the link in our show notes. So keep it hot, keep it honest, and as always, keep it sexy. I cannot wait to hear from you. In the moment, it is very hard to say to somebody, use a condom, because we are afraid to be like, oh, you know, we've all heard the stories that people not want to use condoms. I don't want to be that person that he's going to yell at me or say something.

But it goes back to comprehensive sex education. If we could just say in sex ed, here's the deal. It's not just about vulva having people saying, I've got to take birth control and here's condoms. They're actually like, it's almost like rebranding. It's almost like someone's got to just say, it's okay. And then it becomes expected that you should always have condoms. Because right now, I think it's been for years that people don't, you know, they just don't

take it responsibly. They just, everyone assumes that it's condoms make it like less enjoyable when really it's just not true. I think it goes back to education. It goes back to responsibility, which I would love to see this in sex ed, because what you're saying here is like, I was thinking about it like a designated driver. I was thinking like, if you're with a partner and you're like, you think like someone's drinking, someone's not, who's going to drive tonight? Well, I'm going to drive and you can have a cocktail and I won't drive. Like it's almost like that

should be the conversation about birth control. It's like, who's going to be responsible? You know, well, I'm on the pill. Okay. Well, I still care about STD. So then you're going to wear a condom and you just talk about it like, okay, great. Now, where are we going to go to dinner? Where are we going to go to a movie? The world I want to see is we are talking about it that way that you realize that you're both responsible. You can decide at any night who's going to take charge of it. I'll bring the condoms and you bring the lube. But the fact that women are just always responsible just isn't fair. What about saying, you know how a woman's most reliable route to orgasm is not intercourse, right?

Only I, the statistic that I use is from Debbie Herbonyk's study that 17% of women can have an orgasm from penetration alone. And you talked about this, Gabrielle, how the way we define sex is we define sex as the man getting off. But the kind of sex that gets men off is not the kind of sex that gets women off. Oh, God bless if you're in the 17% and you can like enjoy that, have fun with that. But what we know is that orgasm is not the most reliable route to orgasm for women by a long shot, but it is for men. And I think Emily and Gabrielle, part of what we have to do is redefine sex, right? Because you talk about how it can be dangerous for women to say, well, then you have to write, wear a condom, or it's dangerous for women to say, you know, no condom, no sex. I mean, I guess one thing

that one thing that I tell people who asked me about this, whether it's men having sex with men or women who have sex with men is I just say, just say, okay, then we won't have that kind of sex. We'll have all the other kinds of sex. And personally, I wouldn't want to have sex with a guy who cared so little. And I also really don't want to be the educator about it and try to educate the guy about the burdens to my body because those are very good points.

But it's so funny how your book can change things by drawing men into the circle of responsibility for this. But it can also free women from the burdens of having to ask and negotiate and educate. I just want to say thank you so much. Oh, thank you, Ruby Miller, to discuss it. I love it so much. I mean, I totally agree that the burden shouldn't be on women to educate their partner, especially right as they're about to have sex. That just does not seem fair.

And to your point earlier, Emily, sex ed needs to be vastly different. I actually have a big section on that in the book. And throughout the book, I push condoms so much and talk about also other benefits like, you know, women's birth control options don't protect from STIs, but condoms do. They protect both partners. Anyway, so I really push condoms, but I talk a lot about the sex ed and it's even better than whatever you're imagining. Like good sex ed reduces unwanted

pregnancies so effectively. And we know this from places like Holland, like the Netherlands, where they have just really, really fact-based sex ed, and they do it every year of school. It's not just in fifth grade, which is kind of the standard in the US, it's every year, kids can ask whatever questions. It's again, all fact-based, all very straightforward.

And the number of unwanted pregnancies for teens in the Netherlands compared to the US is just comically different. Like there's almost nothing compared to what's happening in the US. And then we have states in the US where there's at least 11 states right now that don't require any sex ed.

There are some states that only require abstinence teaching and others that like have this very, very restricted curriculum where they're really not going to talk about all of sex, but just one very specific sex act. And we just need to be better because education does work and we know that. And so if you're someone that wants to see abortions reduced, and I know that's not a goal for everyone, but if it is a goal for you, making sure there's really good sex ed programs in schools is a way to do that in an incredibly effective way without controlling anyone's bodies.

It's beautiful. And the other thing we know that works, if you want to reduce unwanted pregnancies, is free birth control. We've seen it done. They did it in Colorado. They've done it in I want to say st Louis, but I know in Colorado it reduced unwanted pregnancies and abortions by 50%

And they didn't even run the program that long like we know it works and if we can make Birth control so easy to get every form every kind. It's it's free. It's accessible. It's everywhere to get every form, every kind. It's free, it's accessible, it's everywhere. Then a lot of this goes away, a lot of this debate, a lot of this battle goes away. And I'm personally someone that, I mean, I'm very pro-choice. I want there to be legal abortion for anyone who needs it always. At the same time, I have experienced pregnancy and did not enjoy it. So I would be delighted to see unwanted pregnancies go down because that means that people aren't being subjected to experience time I have experienced pregnancy and did not enjoy it. So I would be delighted to see unwanted pregnancies go down because that means that people aren't being subjected to an experience that they did not choose, that they did not want to have. And the first part of the pregnancy was always

the most difficult for me, well, except the childbirth itself. And if I could help anyone be able to avoid that experience, I would be so glad for that. That would be amazing. Well, I think you are. I think this book will because I think what we're saying and then the Dutch countries, which I think are really the only place we can point to that are really doing it well, they do it every year and they talk about pleasure, which is something that we don't do anywhere else. So I think if you bring pleasure into the equation and you really reframe, rebrand the use of condoms where it's actually pleasurable, we aren't using them right, then if you put pleasure in the equation as an equality thing

too, like we want everyone to have equal pleasure, then think about it. Kids are learning this at a very younger age, so it just becomes common sense, then you wouldn't have sex that didn't have pleasure for all. It's like saying, going on a date and the penis owner is like, I'm getting a meal and you're just going to sit there and drink water. You wouldn't do that. You wouldn't say like, I'm going to have a delicious meal and you're just going to sit there and stare at me while I eat. And essentially that's how sex has been going down. It's like someone's eating, someone just sitting there staring. It's just not equal. It's not fair. And so if we really

understood pleasure, that's why we're having sex. In fact, most of us aren't having sex for procreation. We're actually having it for pleasure, but it's gotten so complicated. So I think this just the facts of this, which just haven't been clear to anybody. I don't think. I love that analogy of pleasure being like one person at the meal, right? Not eating. You know, if men want pleasure, there is another and they then they think that condoms are so horrible, which we're learning that many men don't.

But what sticks out in our mind is the men, probably are the penis havers who refuse them. An incredible thing is that I was reading recently a report that there has been a dramatic increase in requests for vasectomies. We know there are responsible men out there. We know there are men who are willing to ejaculate responsibly and we know that they're showing it by going out and getting vasectomies because a lot of men don't want to create unwanted pregnancies. But for these guys who hate condoms, there's another option, right? You could get a vasectomy.

Can you talk a little bit about that, Gabrielle? Yeah, so I am a big fan of vasectomies, and I can tell you from personal experience, I got to choose when I have my babies. I'm very grateful for birth control. I got to choose every time I wanted to. I'm very grateful for birth control. I got to choose every time I wanted to be pregnant, but I hated birth control. I've tried every kind, starting, similar to your experience,

Emily, like starting with the pill and having side effects, and then I tried the shot and we tried the IUD, then we tried, anyway, tried it all. And I had issues with every single thing. Not so much that I wasn't going to use it. I really loved having the control of deciding when I was going to have a baby. But then after we were done, and I knew it was the last baby, my husband got a vasectomy. And it just, I can't tell you how,

what an amazing thing it is. Not only is it like a really simple procedure, the healing's really quick. There's a, like you basically like, a funny like side story is that a lot of men schedule vasectomies during March Madness, because they know they're just gonna be sitting on the couch for a few days.

So like, anyway, it's a very easy, easy, you know, kind of healing time. But it's also it's not just that it's incredibly effective, which it is, it's that it removes this psychological burden that you're carrying around. And you've been carrying around for decades, or whenever you first started using birth control. And it's lifted from you, the doctor's appointments, the getting the prescriptions refilled, the trying them, you know, troubleshooting when it's not working well, it all just goes away.

And that's a really common thing. If you talk to couples where the man had a vasectomy or where one of them had a vasectomy, they universally talk about how their sex life improved. Like they had more sex, that it was more freeing, that there just wasn't a burden hanging over them. And, and not, I don't know, it's, I'm just a huge fan of them. One interesting thing about vasectomies is you've heard of stories, I'm sure, where

a man gets a vasectomy and then ends up with a new partner and they want to have a baby, and so he gets it reversed. And they are quite reversible, like 75% if you need it within the first three years, and then it can go down. But those are kind of old statistics. Like Stanford Medical Center is right on their website is saying they're getting 95% reversal rates,

even if it happened 20 years before long, like there's doesn't matter how long it was. And then I started looking, there's a place in Arizona also publishing results that they're saying they're getting 99%. Now, you need a skilled surgeon. I don't know that everyone has access to someone that can do this. But I, with increased demand in vasectomies that we're seeing, I think we're going to get better surgeons at this. If they know people want vasectomies, and then they're getting, I assume they'll also get increased demands for reversals as people change their minds and life changes. I think those statistics aren't just going to be at Stanford,

they're going to be widely available because, I mean, the same way that all of a sudden there were a million plastic surgeons when there was a boom in plastic surgery, I'd love to see a boom in really skilled vasectomy doctors because it would be amazing if men really could go get a vasectomy, have it reversed when they don't have kids, get it again and done.

Like that would be amazing if that was really a feasible thing. And right now it's not, but we're not that far from it. Yeah, I think it'd be life-changing. And vasectomies versus IUD, I just wanna say this, it's not standard for women to receive pain meds while getting an IUD, but it is standard for men to receive pain meds

and be knocked out for vasectomy. Like, why is that? I mean, we have a paternalistic medical system who thinks women can't make decisions about our own bodies. That's the larger answer. But it is insane. Now, IUD, you'll hear different stories when you talk to women.

I know you guys talk to them all the time. Some women don't experience that much pain at insertion, but a lot of women do. And some women experience it to a point that they're like, oh, I was off the pain chart for hours. Like it was horrible. And there are some issues there. They've tried different pain meds.

I mean, this is pretty recent. They weren't administering any. They would just say, it's just a pinch. It was not a pinch for me. It was incredibly painful. But anyway, they have started tying some pain meds. And the only thing that really works when you're doing IUD is general anesthesia. Like it's that painful. It's the only thing that really works when you're doing IUD is general anesthesia

Like it's that painful. It's the only thing that really knocks it out. The general anesthesia is its own Risky procedure. So right now women aren't really given the choice You don't get to choose like do I want to risk the the general anesthesia or do I want to risk? And maybe it won't hurt me so we can try that They aren't really given the choice the choice is made for them and just like hope it won't hurt me. So we can try that. They aren't really given the choice. The choice is made for them and just like, hope it doesn't hurt them. Like there's just like almost no concern with them. And of course you have a vasectomy that always like 100% of the time has pain relief administered and it's just a local anesthetic. It's so simple. It's not a big deal, but that's a pretty routine thing that we just expect women to endure pain. Like that's just

like, well, they'll just deal with it. I mean, consider again, childbirth, which is part of this conversation, the beginning and end of your pain relief and childbirth, you know, you just had a baby, like this is this very traumatic experience to your body. And the pain relief is okay to have an Advil, but not too much. We don't want to poison your breast milk. Like that's it. That's your pain meds after giving birth. You get an atrial. And that's just, again, this expectation that women will be happy to endure painful things.

And we have been, I don't know that we've been happy to, we didn't really have a choice, but we do have a history of enduring painful things. Like that's just- Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in this country, we have medical students in this country now and doctors who

believe that Black women have a higher threshold for pain than white women and that women's pain in general doesn't matter. These incredibly ignorant beliefs that they do seem very linked to this idea of prioritizing male pleasure and that enduring a pregnancy is just a woman's burden, right? And so let's not think about what it actually entails. But I love how this idea of ejaculate responsibly, get a vasectomy, give women the pain relief they need and deserve if they're getting an IUD inserted

and think about the burdens on a woman's body of pregnancy. I love how all these are subtle and not so subtle ways of saying like women's pleasure, feeling good for women, let alone, you know, not having a terrible trauma to their body in an unwanted pregnancy and to our minds and to us psychologically. I think your message over and over again

is not just for men to take responsibility, but your really simple message that almost made me cry, honestly, is how you just say over and over in so many different ways women matter, women's experiences matter, women's pleasure matters, women's pleasure matters. And how the hell are women gonna have pleasure if men are ejaculating irresponsibly? And we all wanna be responsible, right?

I always say like we all wanna be good partners to each other. So we're just giving you more information here. There's like nothing to argue out here. The other thing I wanna talk about here is like, I love that you brought up how society expects women to want to procreate as like the duty of just being alive. So that's also really a harmful assumption that that's the reason why we're having sex and we should all be there. I mean,

I know that I've chose to never, I always knew that children was not in my bucket list, wasn't my priority. And I think that's changing right now for a lot of you, maybe younger generations are, but really it was always like, I had to say, well, but I love kids, don't get me wrong. Like I can be around your children. I'm not a bad person that I don't want that, but like, let's talk about it for a minute. It's expectation.

For being alive. 100% an expectation. And you should not have to defend your choice to want to be a parent or not be a parent. Like that's a super normal thing. Like lots of people don't want to be parents. And for good reason, it's really, really hard. And like not everyone was drawn to that.

Great. But there is an expectation. You really do see it come out in abortion debates and abortion discussions. Like that somehow this is it. This is the purpose of women's existence, it breaks people's brains, the idea that a woman would be impregnated and not want to have that baby like, well, what's wrong with her? Doesn't she have an instinct to become a mother? And no, for sure, we don't like

not everybody. And neither do men to be fathers, like, that's not an instinct for everybody. But the assumption that it is for women is just it's just universal. And it truly like people can't always wrap their head around it. That that there's that women can exist and have purpose and have wonderful lives without ever being pregnant and that without ever even wanting to be pregnant. I love this point. It's so related to everything you say about choice. The more men step up, the more choices women have. Right. And of course, the road thing is about conscripting women's choice and this idea that women's I think you're so right.

But the idea that these people have a lot of times is this, it's not just that it's a retrograde idea, it's an incorrect idea that women evolved to carry every pregnancy to term because that's the way the human species works. I mean, I know as an anthropologist, I take a very kind of long view of these things. Never in our history, view of these things. Never in our history, in our evolutionary prehistory, never was there a time when female hominins or female homo sapiens, there was never a time when they were not very strategically deciding whether to carry a pregnancy to term, whether to take care of an offspring or not. We evolved to be super facultative about these things and strategic, right?

So when these people start talking about how it's the natural thing, I think you literally don't know what you're talking about. Every single species that evolved successfully, if you will, and it's here, it's here because the mother to be decided, you know what, I'm not going to invest in this brood of chicks this time because there are not enough berries and worms, right? Or female hominins deciding, we don't like this,

but you know, they did not decide every single time to burden themselves and their future offspring if they had an offspring that was not going to make it. So when people say this is the natural thing and women should be and we evolve for this, they are completely wrong. We have been trying to circumvent pregnancy, prevent pregnancy, and balance our own needs with those of our offspring and potential future offspring, or not having them literally forever. So I love that this idea of asking men to ejaculate responsibly, it actually

fits into a deep groove in us. As long as we've been able to become pregnant, we've been working on avoiding it, reducing the burdens to ourselves, and negotiating and finding end runs around it. So when people tell you that a woman carrying a pregnancy to term every time is natural, you can tell them that they're absolutely wrong.

And this idea of men stepping up, people do have this idea still. It's so linked to what Emily said. Emily, when you said you made a choice not to have children and then you felt like you had to apologize for it, it's like if men were ejaculating responsibly, it wouldn't even be a question. It's like, obviously this is a choice every time, right?

penis savers are part of this equation. All right, I have two kids, I went through three pregnancies, and I know how burdensome they were on my body. I want to talk about as a mom, how am I going to talk to my boys about this? They're 14 and 21. I want Gabrielle and Emily's thoughts on, you know, not just talking to my kids generally about sex, but about ejaculating responsibly because they have penises. How do I do this and how do listeners do this? Gabrielle, how do you do this? Yeah, you saw.

I mean, I found this accidentally by writing this thread. My oldest child was 20 at the time I first wrote that thread or published the thread and the youngest was nine. And of course, at the time, no one had any idea. Like my kids had no idea that their mother would be like talking about the details of like how pregnancies are caused on public platforms all the time, right? Like that I would be writing about irresponsible ejaculations. But I write about it so straightforwardly in the thread.

And so, I mean, I feel like I write about it intentionally in the least sexy way possible. I'm just gonna tell you the stats, tell you the details. I'm like, middle-aged mom, let me just lay this all out for you in this very practical way, right? And because of that, I have heard from many parents that they have just read the thread

and read this to their teens. And I've had college professors that have added it to textbooks. It's actually really approachable for teenagers. And I can tell you the book is even more so. Like I intentionally wrote it with my kids in mind, with teenagers in mind. I'm picturing health classes and picturing discussions with parents. It says all the words that can make people uncomfortable. I know people don't like to say penis. They don't like to say

vagina. They don't like to say bull. I know that it says all the words, but in just the most straightforward way that it's like, you know, it doesn't feel threatening. It doesn't feel as weird as it think it might be. And people have had great success. Just reading it aloud as a family, like as weird as that sounds like, Oh, okay. Let's just talk about this.

Let's just lay it out. Dinner's gonna be so interesting tonight. I'm gonna read you guys a Twitter thread. Yes, I love that idea. I'm gonna do it at Shabbat the next time I have everybody here for Shabbat. I'm gonna say we're gonna do something special tonight for Shabbat.

Go ahead, light the candles. And then Elliot, my 21 year old, you're gonna read this. Or Lyle, my 14 year old, you're going to read this. Go ahead, read. Oh, that's going to be awesome. And of course they might be surprised to hear this from their mom at first or from their dad at first or someone they're not used to talking about this with.

But there's also something to be able to say, well, look at Twitter. Lots of people have read this. Lots of people have talked about this. We can handle it too. Like it's okay. It's not, you don't have to be freaked out by this. Lots of people have talked about this. We can handle it too. It's okay. You don't have to be freaked out by this.

Going back to the thread, because I feel like I, again, it's not controversial the way I mean, it is controversial, but it is so straightforward a matter of fact. And so you've heard every argument in the book, I'm sure. I've heard you a bunch of interviews saying like, yeah, people get to the second tweet and they're like, I am not 100% responsible. They don't read the whole thing. But it's like what, I don't really know. I mean, I know you're writing a book about this. We're gonna read it, but how would you argue with this?

Like in a way it's like just more facts. Like I just feel like the whole world, everyone's mind is gonna be blown open by this. I hope that they're gonna say, oh wow. Like I know I'm already thinking about it in all of my interactions. Everyone I talked to is like, it just sort of blows up with everything

that we believe to be true and it isn't. And I think we should all just be like, thank gratitude for you, you know? But what's the main argument against this? Sure, so the main argument, and I'm like not even not exaggerating at all, the main argument by far, by far, by far is just that I say 100%, that I say all men 100%

or that all unwanted pregnancies. No one wants to hear that. And I'll even respond to them and say, okay, let's say 98% because if you use condoms correctly, they're 98% effective. So let's say 98% and I'm just rounding it to 100. No, they're just really bothered by that. Interestingly, if they will read the whole thread,

which most of like, remember Twitter's a funny place. Some people are just like literally there to argue. That's if they will read the whole thread, which most of like, remember, Twitter is a funny place. Some people are just like literally there to argue. That's why they come to Twitter. Fine. No problem. Sometimes I come to Twitter for that. Fine. But anyone who actually reads the thread, I don't really have anyone argue with it. If they've read the thread, I don't really have anyone that's just like, they might say, oh, I think this statistic is different, or this is updated or whatever. Fine. But no one really has argued me on that. They only argue if they get stuck on that. This claim, which I intentionally made very bold, and I'm trying to draw people in this claim about 100%. And in the book, I was actually, I mean, I, I mentioned it in the

introduction, but then I actually pushed the argument farther into the book so that you can get there and already have a lot of knowledge behind you before you get to the argument I make that's like men cause all in one pregnancies. And that was intentional. I hope that it will get people into the book further because if they're pro-choice, if they're anti-abortion,

people love this thread. Everyone gets the idea of prevention. Everyone gets the idea of prevention. Everyone gets the idea of like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Instead of yelling at women as they're walking to an abortion clinic, which is obviously not going to be effective, why don't we just prevent the unwanted pregnancy from happening at all? Like, why not? Like it just makes sense to everybody. So if you can get people to read the thread or get people to read the book, I hope, they really, there isn't a lot of argument. Like they really get converted quite quickly.

I believe that once people grasp this concept about ejaculating responsibly, we're not just like in any way saying that if you have a penis, you're 100 percent responsible, you're at blame. We're not even making you feel that. In fact, I think this could be like a huge sigh of relief. Like, oh, every time I had sex, you know, I didn't know with a vulva, I didn't know like what was gonna happen and I worried like was she on the pill, did the conner break? Like it's literally takes to be in control.

You can actually enjoy sex more when you actually are certain about who's in charge and who's taking control responsibility. And even if you have that conversation ahead of time, it's like the consent conversation. Like once you know what's happening, then we can have the best, most pleasure possible and have incredible sex. So I just think as someone who's been studying sex for a long time, I know Wednesday feels this as well, it's a game changer for sex education. And I really hope that we see this in schools and the literature that we're able to

talk to their kids about it. We're like, I don't know how to talk to my kids about sex or I can't talk to my boys about it. Well, talk about this. Like you're telling them not to pee on the seat. Don't pee on the toilet seat and ejaculate responsibly. Like it's just becomes part of the argument. So part of the conversation.

It's so true. You're changing the way that we talk about sex and pleasure. If I could just say one last thing, you know how there are so many penis havers who, God bless them, they care a lot about their partner's orgasm? If you, as you do in your thread, explain to them that part of a vulva haver's pleasure and a vagina-haver's pleasure is taking off the plate the fear of getting knocked up

from this pleasure. You are going to give her such a better chance of having a pleasurable experience than you would otherwise. Some men's egos get really involved in, they say, making a woman come. OK, fine. Hook into it.

You want to help a woman come? Make her feel comfortable that this is going to be all about pleasure, not about a potentially unwanted pregnancy. God bless you, Gabrielle. I love that. Gabrielle, thank you so much for being here. We so appreciate you. I'm going to ask you the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. Oh, okay.

So just quick, and you can answer them however words come to mind. Okay. The first one is, what is your biggest turn on? Basically, anytime my husband makes me laugh, like, like we go to bed and he starts making me laugh. I'm just like, so turned on. I love it. Biggest turn off. I mean, exhaustion, just tired, busy days when my mind is like, won't relax. What makes good sex? I love sex. And for me, it's such a positive experience. It's like, I feel really good

physically. I have someone saying really nice things to me. It's just this super positive wonderful thing. I love it What's the number one thing that you wish everyone knew about sex? That's a great question I guess I just want especially young people to know that if they just want to have Happy sex that maybe isn't as adventurous as it looks in the movies. That's just fine If both people feel great while they're having sex, that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And you don't even have to go beyond that. Something you would tell your younger self

about sex and relationships. I would just say it's your relationship and what it looks like and how it's functioning. So much of that is a choice, choosing to like love your partner every day to get up and think about the best things about them and why you love them and appreciate what they bring to the table. Like, you get to choose that and you can really improve your

relationship if you do choose that and you have to choose it every day. And that's a good thing. Thank you. That's great. Thank you so much for being here. So appreciate you. Thank you so much. I love this conversation. ["Sex with Emily"] ["Sex with Emily"] That's it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday.

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