Sex With Emily - Gender-Chill with Jacob Tobia

Episode Date: June 21, 2019

On today’s show, Emily is joined by writer, producer and author Jacob Tobia to talk about their book Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story. They clarify the differences between gender, sex, and orientation and what it means to be gender neutral, as well as “gender-chill.” Plus, the journey we go through to find our identity – because it’s not always easy, and inspiration to live our lives and feel sexy & confident – no matter what turns you on! Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: Adam & Eve, pjur, Boston Scientific, SiriusXM, Veritas Farms.  Follow Emily on all social: @sexwithemily For even more sex talk, tips, & tricks visit sexwithemily.com For more info on Jacob Tobia, click HERE.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by writer, producer, and author Jacob Tobiah to talk about their book, Sissy, a coming-of-gender story. Topics include gender, sex, and orientation. If you're confused or want clarification, we bring it down for you on what it means to be gender neutral. What does it mean to be gender chill? I love this. If you don't have to be so uptight about it, let's just try to all understand each other. We also talk about the journey we go through to find our identities because hey, it's not always easy. And inspiration to live our lives and feel sexy and confident no matter what turns you

on. All this and more, thanks for listening. Into his eyes Then the eyes of a man obsessed by sex Eyes that mock our sacred institutions Betrubized they call them in a fight on me. Hey, Emily You got a boyfriend because my man E here. He just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute The girls got a hair stand. Oh my the women know about shrinkage isn't it common? What do you mean like laundry? It's r? Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my God, I'm so dumb.

Being bad feels pretty good. You know Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between for more information. Check out sexwithemily.com. You're going to love our site if you haven't been there yet You can just Google things all the questions you send me you email me You there's a lot of answers on our site with incredible blogs to help you have a better life

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Jacob Tobiah, welcome back to the show. I'm so glad to be back. I'm so you have quite a journey since we've seen you last. It's been a minute, yeah. I know, I keep looking up and you're like everywhere and you just wrote a book. You guys, we're here to talk about Jacob's book, Sissy, A Coming of Gender Story. And I just want to congratulate you on all of your success. We were just talking about seeing you in Trevor Noah, which was amazing. a coming of gender story. And I just wanna congratulate you on all of your success.

We were just talking about seeing you in Trevor Noah, which was amazing and so all the places you've been telling your story. Just to bring people up to speed. Like I know your whole story, you first thought that you were gay. And there were no other terms. There were no other terms until very, very recently.

And so how would you identify? How do you identify now? So the way I talk about identity is that a lot of times people are like, oh, identity is this one word that you have to pick. You know, like, it's like the one word you have to pick and then stick to it. And I think that's a really boring way to lead our lives and also pretty limiting.

So I prefer to think about identity as like a layer cake and you can never get too tall. You know what I mean? Your cake just becomes more opulent the more layers you add to it. And like, you know, you have to add some support rods or whatever and like have better support structures. If you wanna add more layers, I guess,

I've been watching too much nailed it on Netflix. How you need to do it? Like, so now I'm thinking all about like, no, put the rods in the cake. Like when I make a layer cake with an analogy, I hear Nicole Byer yelling at me. But anyway, no, it's like, you know, so for me, the way I think about it is that

I've just been building layers on my identities. So in high school, you know, when I, you know, well, even earlier, like even earlier than high school, when I started going through puberty, my gender was always different. But then, you know, I feel like it got shut down pretty early, right? Like, gender not conforming children often are kind of taught what's what by the time you're like five, you know? And you were five, you were like, yeah. By the time I was four or five, I knew that for whatever reason, the way I wanted to express myself was not okay, right?

That I needed to figure out what it meant to be a boy in this world, that I had to learn to sort of perform that and color inside those lines if I wanted to have any friends or any like, you know, and survive at school and like have any affirmation from really anybody. And so, you know, my gender my gender became an afterthought.

And then puberty hit, and my sexuality was just not an afterthought. At all. And so, for a long time, gay was the word that I used to describe myself because it was the most pressing need. It was the most urgent one, because I'm in the middle of puberty. Yeah, and I was just like, oh my god, my sexual difference. It's definitely something I'm feeling, and my gender difference, I've kind of like repressed so deeply

that I don't even realize it. Right. And then through exploring my identity in the gay community, I realized like, you know, oh, there's this thing called trans. Oh, there's this thing, like there's gender nonconforming people. Oh, there are like genderqueer and nonbinary people.

Oh my god, there's all of these words. And this whole playing field is so much wider than I thought it was. And so now, I understand myself not as like a man or as a woman. I just want to live my life in a way that is sort of between and outside of those labels. Right, that makes sense. And I still have a male body, right? Like I'm not denying the fact, like my physiology, That's my body, but I don't think that our bodies should ever be our destinies, right?

Like I don't think that you should look at any one person's body and say because of your body, I am entitled to coerce you to be a certain way, right? Like, like- It's such a crazy new way of thinking though that people just, cause even just talking about, like sexuality, cause you're talking, not just about gender, but and your sexual orientation.

Yeah. And even that's confusing to people. It's like all of it. And I love what you're saying, because why do we have to put people in this? Like, two does seem very limiting. I understand that. Everyone's been limited by this way of thinking, right?

I mean, if you think about the last century of feminist struggle, it's been about creating space for women to inhabit a broader range of gender expression. One moment that people forget was a historical moment is that there was actually a first time in history when a woman wore pants in a major motion picture. That was a historical achievement. It was Katherine Hepburn, I cannot remember the year, but she was the first woman to wear pants in a and motion picture.

And people sort of take for granted all of the work that's been done around expanding the possibilities of women's gender expression over the last century, but it's like, no, no, that wasn't an accident. That was based on like, on like, blood, sweat, and tears of activists who gave up tons and sacrificed a lot and were the subject of scorn and derision and hateful remarks and glares and all of that kind of stuff. And now I think what I'm trying to do and what I think we as a culture are trying to do is to think about, okay, now we need to look at the other side of the coin on this binary

way of thinking about things and think about like what does it mean to give people, you know, male assigned people and people who are raised as boys greater access to expression? What does it mean to give people just the ability to kind of play around more and not have such huge consequences for doing something as trivial as wearing lipstick? Exactly. Well, let's talk about your style then because you look fabulous. Like how do you and have you always? How what is your style? How would you even describe it like you owe to you stylist? You've always loved like dressing up like if you always Favorite women's clothing. Well, I feel like I've always it's you know, it's funny because I don't I wouldn't say that I favor women's clothing So much as I say that I favor expressive clothing

Right cuz you are In our culture expressive clothing most often, because you are not. Yes, see? And in our culture, expressive clothing most often happens to be made for women. Although every now and then I find a men's piece that I'm like, ooh, you know, every now and then I like being a little more understated or whatever. And there are moments where men's fashion works for me. But most of the time I end up wearing

sort of a blend of the two. Right, like for example, I like men's pants because they're, they structured a little bit better for me. Like I feel like I like, I don't mind wearing men's pants, like like men's pants because they're they structure it a little bit better for me Like I feel like I like I don't mind wearing men's pants like wearing men's jeans right now And I'm definitely wearing men's cowboy boots But I feel like cowboy boots are kind of the great gender-neutral shoe. They are you know like everyone looks fucking good in a pair of cowboy boots Yes, yes, absolutely. Everyone looks fucking sexy, you know I'm like anytime someone's wearing cowboy boots. I'm just like I

Yeah, exactly yeah, and then and then I'm wearing this little like wearing cowboy boots, I'm just like, hey, girl, what's up? I'm going to score two in pants, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then I'm wearing this little like, actually I got this really recently, it's a, it's a, how to describe it's a blazer, and then it's embroidered with these little rainbow elephants that are kind of marching around the perimeter of it. It's amazing, it's like vintage or is it, it looks like a spa.

In giant grass that's glitter embroidered. And so I got this in the Goodwill in Carrie North Carolina because I was home visiting my family like a week ago. The best Goodwill girl, yeah. Yes, but also this one Goodwill isn't even that good. Like, you know, on the scale of Goodwill,

this one's pretty mediocre, but it's one that's closest to my house. And my friend was helping her mom clean out her house. So like, we went there to like drop off stuff and I was like, let's just take a quick browse. And I saw just like the little tendril of grass and one elephant on the sleeve poking out of the rack and I was like, let's just take a quick browse. And I saw just the little tendril of grass and one elephant on the sleeve poking out of the rack and I was like, that's what I'm buying.

That's it, done and done with the pin where you put that on. So my stylist is goodwill. And that's also because I feel like spiritually I just love wearing secondhand stuff, especially stuff like at goodwill or stuff at really at proper thrift stores because it feels like it's really been kind of abandoned

spiritually, you know, like I don't know how someone let themselves part with like this pink little elephant. Yeah, I know, I know. I'm like, her name's Patricia, she has feeling. Right, exactly. You know, like how, like how are you just gonna let this jacket go? Like it's lined in purple.

I know. Like it's so good. That's fucking fit. It's amazing. Yeah, and so I feel like I'm rehoming, you know, clothes. It's working. It's totally working. So, okay, so this is your style.

When you go out there in the world, like how do you feel like you are so brave, Jacob? Like I just look at all the things you're doing and they're reading your book. Like all your stories are just, it was so, it's so real and you're so vulnerable and I love like all your messaging like okay here's why your kids like some articles you've written kids your kids are gonna stare at me here's what it means or everyone does they just don't get it it's confusing is it trans who do you sleep with what do you all about and I just want to congratulate you and all that braveness that you that you just keep how do you keep going with all this so what do you think that comes from? Well, I mean, a lot of it is the fact that I'm really stubborn.

Okay. That's been really helpful in my life. Some of it is the fact that I'm a Leo because I'm just really showy by nature. You know, I'm just showy little lion prancing around. And, you know, and the bigger thing is that I learned bravery through community. You know, I didn't learn to be,

that's the thing I hate most about when we tout kind of like queer trans achievements. So often we tout them as if people who are like the first gay, whatever, or the first trans, whatever accomplish that because of their singular bravery. And bravery never happens in a vacuum. So true. Like you only learn to be brave because someone else helped you figure out what being

brave meant. And I don't like it as a culture we often erase the fact that bravery is a collective process, not an individual one. You know, it's not like we're all like some cowboy in a western movie like going out, you know, into the middle of the town challenging someone to shoot off. Like even that dude had people supporting him, you know, and people teaching him to be brave and to be able to teach him what it meant.

And so, you know, the bravery, I feel like where I've got my bravery from was over a really long, like a decade-long process of being surrounded by other queer and trans people who were braver than I was. And eventually, you just kind of have this osmosis, you know, you just kind of start to take on a little bit of their bravery and you start to reinforce each other's

bravery and all of a sudden you go from feeling like you're super alone and have no idea how to do this to feeling like if something happens, I have an entire community of people that have my back. You really do. Let's talk about this because you had to come out for gender and sexual orientation. So do you feel like you're going to have to stop

and you have to explain and what's happening with right now with all the attention's getting? Because I'm telling you, like I was in New York, for example, I had meetings with some executives that all had kids like in their 20s right now, like, yeah, I love having meetings with exactly. Do you do that? Like I, they were just happened to be those, except those people. And they were like, well, you know what you should do, Emily? Like, everything's about sex now. Like I, they had kids in college who were like 20, 18, 20, and they're like, you know, everything's about like this,

you know, gender, binary now, and sexual orientation, and they're all like, they all don't know what they are, and they all think that they're bisexual, but maybe they're gay, and it's just, you should just talk about that. Like everyone is bisexual, which is right. Yeah, and like exactly, like you're bisexual as well,

just what do that happen? Right. Mr. Executive, you should see. Oh my God, like every exact you're meeting with is like, but what I'm saying, like, time my 20 year old is bisexual, and like, he really doesn't know what to do about it. And you're like, okay, so you're bisexual, and you don't know what to do about it.

That's what I'm getting from the conversation. Like, there's two people. It was two in a row. It was a woman whose kids were also in their 20s. And she's like, this is what you need to tackle. So, what do you see happening right now? Like, where do you, like, where you're at? And then like, what do we hope to see

from everything that you're doing? Like what do you think is happening? Do you think that this is kind of you're paving the way? I know a lot of people pay with the way for you, but like what is happening with sex? Like what do you think that we have to understand now with sexual orientation? My big goal right now is I want to create a world where like buying pansexual folks have all the freedom that they deserve and need to express everything that they desire, right? And I say, I could pretend that I do, that I believe that, like, from a place of, like,

magnanimity or generosity, but it's from a place of profound and deep selfishness. Because if this bitch is ever gonna get laid, like, bi- and pansexual people need to be liberated, like, way more, you know? Likesexual people need to be liberated way more. I need people to be able to acknowledge that they're attracted to people along the trans spectrum, especially men or masculine of center folks.

If you look at the world of porn, it's very clear that trans people are deeply attractive to so many people out there. But then if you look at our culture, where are the cis, you know, cis men dating trans women on television. But they're not, but they're doing it, right? What do you find?

I mean, it's happening all the time, but that hasn't been that person yet. There hasn't been the cis gender man who's out there saying, yeah, this is what I'm attracted to. Right, and this is what returns me on. Yeah, and like I need people to be able to name that like when I walk by in high heels and like a cute little skirt

and like you know my toned as fuck legs that are hairy as hell like that there's a lot of people who are like hmm I need them to acknowledge that you know what I mean like I like I don't get why people are so ashamed to acknowledge their desire for gender not conforming people like we're sexy we're fun so fun, you're so fun. Like I won a best friend, I felt this last time, like we should hang out. Right, which is fun. We really should.

I know we should, like I feel that too, or practically neighbors, we just realize that. I'm like not doing anything this summer. Really? Nothing? I mean, I, I have, like, it's like one of those things where I'm like pitching this big project at the end of June, and then after that,

I might be doing a lot of work, but I also might be doing literally nothing. Are you dating? What are you doing? Like what's your life like now since the book came out? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that I might be doing a lot of work, but I also might be doing literally nothing. Are you dating? What are you doing? What's your life like now since the book came out? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm dating a ton, but I am very much on the market and trying to be, I'm trying to find ways to like,

I'm working on my own desire to, because I feel like I, you know, I'm really dissatisfied with how I was raised, like in terms of the cultural cues I was given around what is attractive and what is desirable. And I was raised, like in terms of the cultural cues I was given around what is attractive and what is desirable. And I hate like, I hate like the way that my erotic conditioning was like controlled by all of these like shitty Disney executives like out in LA. You know what I mean? No, it's true, like the story about the prince and the princess and coming to see it.

Right. Right. And like, I'm just sort of like, what, like, who decided that, like, oh, what we're gonna do is we're gonna make every middle school in the country fetishize Zach Efron. Right. Who made that decision? I don't even find him cute.

No, cause I'm like, I'm like, I think he's cute, but I'm like, I would like to think that more than just that is cute, you know? And I have like this whole, I feel like I have this, there's, you know, there's, like, the ability, you can expand what your brain thinks about. But then like getting into your subconscious of your desires takes like more measured work.

It does, it's like erotic, that's the kind of sucks, like somatic therapy, I've done the somatic, it's talk about everyone has an erotic blueprint. We all have an erotic map, and there's like a primary erotic thought that kind of turns us on. We don't have to go finding it,

but what is that, and then you kind of expand that. I start to think about your fantasies, and you start to think about, I've had to do that work too, what really turns us on. If we don't, we have to go finding it. But what is that? And then you kind of expand that. You start to think about your fantasies and you start to think about, I kind of do that work too. What really turns me on? And is it just a three? Because most people are like limited with like three sums. Right. Or three sums.

What's the other way? What is that? What are other things that you do to turn non-bond? It's the top fantasy. It's like three sums, group sex. Okay, that's kind of the same thing. Dominates the mission top. Yeah, like SNM., group sex, okay, that's kind of the same. They dominate some shit. Yeah, like SNM.

SNM? Yeah, like that too. Yeah. But how do you figure out what really, yeah, what's really, what's really, what I'm focused on right now, like my dream partner. Tell me I want to know. Is, and I found a few people who are kind of like this,

but like my dream partner is also fam. Like I want to date a fam, you know what I mean? Like I want to date, I want a date of fam, you know what I mean? Like I want to be with like another, like I, and you know, I'm open to other possibilities, right? Like I'd be down to date, like I'd be down to date, like trans dudes, I'd be down to date, like maybe a bunch, like a hot, bunch lady,

I could get down with. I would need her to approach me, you know what I mean? Because I'm like, sort of, I'm not 100% sure what I do with that. And I feel like it's a weird joke. How you been with... I haven't yet, but it's on my goal list. Never been with. It's on my like, I want to figure it out.

Never had a vulva interface. No, but I feel like there's a way that I could get into that. But I would need someone with just like a blistering amount of confidence and a deep confidence of how much they wanted me. And also an acknowledgement that like part of, that sometimes radical sex can look like helping people learn what they're into. Right. It's true. It is true. You need someone who maybe wants to be a teacher, maybe they're learning well. Yes, I need someone who like erotically wants to be

a teacher. Right. Who is like, I'm gonna teach you and I'm gonna get turned on by the fact that like you might fail and then I get to give you an F and then we'll get we'll try again. Exactly. There are people like that. I love it. You're kind of on your robotic journey because in a way a lot of this has been heavy for you I would think. Totally. And it's kind of not about sex.

Right. I would think that you're not sexual, but I would feel like this is just, because I get that too. I've been so caught up my business lately that I'm like sort of on this like, taking a break lately from dating. I kind of call it like a mandatoryum.

More to buy. Right, so I'm like literally having a show, not having sex, but like six months, five months. If I haven't even, I haven't said that out loud yet, but it's true. I'm more to brag about. Right, so I'm literally having a show, not having sex, but like six months, five months. So I haven't even, haven't said that out loud yet, but it's true, I'm doing it. Yeah, I'm on even longer than that, until it'll work. Okay, and it's okay, and you're a good company.

Yeah, but it's like, but I get it. So then getting into your body, you want to feel as good because I feel like, yeah, it's something to look at. And also, well, you have to present, people probably don't know what, you're, because okay, so saying, so saying trans, because trans gender, how do you explain like, you're to present people probably don't know what you're because okay, so say so saying trans Because trans gender, how do you explain like you're not having any surgery? You're not changing your love your male body in terms of Like trans folks. I think that there's that one of the big problems we have in our culture is that

Everything about sexuality is coated with gender right almost everything in terms of how we Understand what it means to fuck people what it of how we understand what it means to fuck people, what it means to be intimate, what it means to have relationships. The way we're taught about those things from the earliest age, the way we're conditioned is that you have to fit into one of these two categories in order to make sense, right? And I'm kind of like, what would it mean for us to, like, what would it mean for all of us to find different ways of making sense to one another? Right. Like, how would that look?

Like tell me your future, your dream future. I mean like my dream future I think is that, I would think I wanna be like married to a drag queen. Okay. I wanna find like my like, femme top, dom, like, you know, husband. Okay. And or partner.

Yeah. Just picturing this view. Let me get that. Yeah, for now at least we'll see. Okay, I take this so young too. At the current moment. You're such that your late 20s, right? Yeah, I'm like, I'm partner. Yeah. Just picturing this view. Yeah, I think, yeah, for now at least, we'll see. Okay, I take this so young too. At the current moment. You're such that you're late 20s, right? 20s.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm still a little baby and I'm trying to figure this myself. You really are, but you're so much like, yeah, you really, I mean, I'm just so impressed with all the way. I don't want to cut you off, but you've done so much work on yourself. Well, it's funny too, because it's like, I feel like I've done so much work on my gender,

where it's like about me and the work I can do myself, but the erotic work, like an, and sexual liberation, you have to work with other, I mean, like, I the work I can do myself, but the erotic work and sexual liberation, you have to work with other, I feel like I've liberated myself sexually pretty well on my own. And also with some of your help, Emily, because of, I mean, the last time I came in to For the Podcast, the amount of toys I left with, holy shit.

Oh my God, did you get, what did I give you? Because with that more. Oh, I got, I had never had a flashlight before, and I was like, wow, this is like beautiful and it's like one of those crystal ones, like the clear ones is really cute. Okay. I feel, I got, what did I get?

There's like some really cute butt plugs, some really cute, like a really nice, like a really nice primo dildo. There's a lot of really good shit. Okay, good. Like gallons of lube, not gallons, but like a bunch of lube. No, I'm sure it could have been a gallon.

Like not a gallon, but like a bunch. No, right. Like multiple containers. I just feel like it was, it was really great for my, it was a bunch of. No, no, I'm sure it could have been a gallon. Not a gallon, but like a bunch. No, right. Like multiple containers. I just feel like it was really great for my, it was a really great sort of like, you know, sometimes you're writing the book and you can just take a masturbation break with that kind of thing.

You just need ways to like, you know, reduce the tension. Yeah, totally. And that's what it is. Totally. Oh, I love it. But yeah, you know, I feel like the thing that's more difficult is that doing kind of sexual liberation work, sometimes,

oftentimes it requires somebody else to explore with. You can't just explore with yourself. I mean, you can, but like there's parts you can't just explore with yourself. And so it's, you know, finding, figuring out how to find people and what kind of exploration I want and how to communicate that to other people. Like that's a whole other journey that I'm just beginning. Exactly. And then I think that part of that journey is being honest and saying like, I'm exploring,

are you ready to play? And I think that part of that journey is being honest and saying like, I'm exploring, are you ready to play? And I think people are more open to that now. Yeah, definitely are more open to exploring and playing with you. Okay, so tell me what it was like to be able to, because since I saw it, I guess you were working on the book and what was it like to write your whole story? I can only imagine really cathartic and that how much you learned just the process of writing it. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I say this this and I don't say it lightly, that writing this book was actually like the most healing thing I think I've ever done. Yeah. Because I mean,

if you think about it, like, it's in some ways it's the best therapy, right? Because how often so much of like therapeutic practice in my life has been taking a story that you've told yourself about something that happened in your life, and then finding a way to retell it with yourself as the protagonist. Yes. You know? And how to tell it in a way that is more empathetic

towards you and what you are going through, and where you're not blaming yourself so much for everything that's going on, and where you're giving yourself freedom to be imperfect in certain moments and be confused in other moments. And I feel like doing that for 300, 400 pages, it changes you and it changes your heart in ways that are permanent and are beautiful.

Yeah, and it was also a way to kind of take, it was a way to synthesize everything. Because I knew what was true about my gender, but then taking sort of the arc of it and putting it all together and figuring out how the different parts of my life and different moments of my life all strung to, like, you know, went together. It was like the most interesting, beautiful,

Jigsaw puzzle. And then, you know, I put it together, and finally, I was like, Oh, I can see what this image has been the whole time. Yeah, I totally get it. Have you been in therapy too in this process? Oh, totally. So did it. And before this process. And the trauma, right. So I would say,

Everyone needs to be in therapy. Everyone just go get therapy. Everybody. Like stop listening and go get therapy. I agree. I see that every day. And then come listen again when you're at like, I'm therapy on your ride to and from. Right. I say all the time.

Yeah. And then I had someone correct when I was talking to my Michigan visit my family, like, not everybody. What you could say is most people can benefit from therapy. I was like, no, literally, I think everyone needs that. No, literally every person. Who can't? Who can't? Yeah, because like the idea of like, no, I'm like,

because I feel like if you're saying, I don't need therapy, what you're saying is, my emotional architecture is perfect. And I'm like, okay, you need to get off that high horse because like the moment, especially if you think that you don't need therapy. What you're saying is my emotional architecture is perfect. And I'm like, um, okay, you need to get off that high horse because like the moment, especially if you think that you don't need therapy, you're like deeply in need of therapy. Right. Exactly. Thank you. You know, if people are like, well, I could probably benefit from therapy, but I'm like, really busy and I'm not quite sure if my need is acute enough at this present moment.

Though I bet I could stand to, you know, really gain something from like a once a month kind of situation. Then I'd be like, okay, maybe you can get out of being in therapy for a few months and I won't yell at you. You know? As long as you're considering it, because takes a while, but I think you just gotta get in there. For me starting therapy in my mid 20s,

like every single week for like, I don't know forever, 20, something here still. But I went off it. I went off therapy for six years, I'm back and it's like doing the work, trauma work, because I was thinking going back to your childhood stuff, that when you were saying that everyone has stories, we all have stories that we tell ourselves,

but then once we tease it apart, you realize that there was probably, you were blaming yourself, victim, you know, and then you realize that it was the society. Like it wasn't just you, it was your family and things that were happening, so I think that could just be very powerful. Well, the other thing that was really incredible about it is that in the process of writing about it and writing about the process of writing about it and writing about it so publicly, it forces you to find empathy for even the people who hurt you. And it forces you to understand where they were coming from too,

and to extend the benefit of the doubt to everybody. I mean, not that, you know, I think there are certain kinds of trauma and certain kinds of abuse where you don't owe it to yourself to do that, or at least doing that is something you should wait on exploring. But in my situation, it had been a few years between anything that happened in the book and where I was in the present. Taking the time to really sympathize with people who were not good to me and understand where they were coming from in that was like, I mean, it

just, I feel like it shifted my entire consciousness. And the thing that was really incredible is that it's actually changed my relationship, my present day relationships with a lot of people. Yeah, I'm sure it has, right? Because the way you're changing your behavior down, because you would have it understanding you're not coming in with some sort of animosity, intention with them. But even like, even like the act of reading the book and then watching how it's received in public and then hearing feedback from other people has like legitimately changed my relationship with my dad. Like in such a beautiful way. That is amazing. So tell me more about that.

Like I was home last week actually. And he, A, he's like playing with pronouns in a very incorrect way, but he's like playing with them for the first time. So tell me, let's talk about the pronouns are stressful. I'm like, oh my god, am I gonna say he and they, like let's talk about that too. Yeah, he's just sort of like,

he was just sort of like, sleepily, like we were like watching some like design show on Netflix and he was just like, so yeah, we were watching some design show on Netflix, and he was just like, so yeah, if I say, they goes to the grocery store, I was like, no, you just conjugate it normally, they go to the grocery store. And I just used a little sample sentence, and then that was our little moment,

but it was the first time he brought up of his own volition. So what are these pronoun things? How do they work? That is so, what a moment. Yeah. That is a really powerful moment. And it's not because like,

because the grand prize. There's a way to hide in your lipstick in the bathroom. Right. But then like now is like, how do I do the day? And the bigger thing that he told me is he was, he was, he like, a few of his colleagues have read the book now. And, and he was telling me that they sort of,

he was like, yeah, some of them have been telling me like, oh, I'm kind of a hero of this thing. So like my dad actually now has a heroic narrative of pride around coming to terms with like having a gender nonconforming child and learning to love and celebrate that child. And like he's able to feel a sense of heroism in his own journey. And I don't think we would have gotten there if I didn't write this. Wow, that makes so much sense,

and that's really beautiful, because it's probably various confusing for him, and then for his friends, and say, we all want to be recognized, your parents. Right, and for his friends, they like, dude, you did a such an incredible job. His culture, yeah. Right, like, you're so incredible

in the way that you've come to understand and embrace your kid is so cool. You know, like, he's getting that from people. Am I, did I? Okay, guess I am. I guess I'm gonna get these gender pronouns right there. Right. I got it. Right. And he's finally giving himself the pad on the back

that he deserves so long time. Yeah, because of the bottom line of therapy too. Yes, you're gonna understand that people have hurt you, your parents, your relatives, but they did the best they could with the tools that they were given. And so, you know, we probably felt some of that that there was some animosity, but now it's just, you're like I said, you're still in your 20s, you have a whole future life with him now that could be really beautiful. And it already is really beautiful.

Like we have such a good relationship and it's gotten way stronger through the process of writing this book and bringing it to everybody. All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break and we come back more Jacob Tobiah. Okay, let's talk about the gender. Like, why people, it still is can be confusing because you came out the gender and sexual orientation is two things you better do. So let's talk about the pronouns.

So you don't go by he. Yeah, I go by they. And you know, it's like, there's sort of, you know, there's like a really complicated, linguistic way to talk about it. And that way makes me bored and makes me want to listen. Okay, good. So we're not gonna do that.

I love that you make this all fun and never boring. And it's just, I don't have time. I don't have time for like, here's the thing. I have so much anxiety in my life. Like the last thing I need is more anxiety in my life. Right, but this is anxiety to be like, I am not a he or she. Right, but the number one rule for other people in my life

is like, actually, like the number one rule is just like, don't be too anxious about the pronouns. Like, just don't be too anxious. Like, it's okay if you mess up, it's okay if you, it's okay if you get it right sometimes, and then three weeks later you fuck it up again, and then two weeks later you get it right, and then, you know, five months later you fuck up again.

Like, whatever, as long as you're trying, it's totally fine. But like, the main thing is just like, don't be be anxious about it. Like there's nothing to be anxious about. Like we're all trying like we are trying to honor people with imperfect tools. Language is an imperfect tool and what we're trying to do and what trans and gender nonconforming folks want is we want a slightly more accurate way to represent ourselves and be understood in the world. And the truth is, when people are like, oh, Jacob, he goes to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yes, it's only a word, totally,

but it carries with it all of these expectations that have made my life really difficult and have limited my ability to feel happy in this world. And when people say Jacob, Jacob got their jacket at the Goodwill and they had a really interesting conversation with the lady at the register about it. Like even just like that small thing,

having the ambiguity there, it's like going from being wrongfully categorized to just not being categorized, right? It's like someone telling, like I feel like I sent my whole life being like, hey I think I'm yellow and everyone's like, no you're blue. And you're like, I think I'm yellow. And then they're like think I'm yellow and everyone's like, no, you're blue. And you're like, I think I'm yellow.

And then people are just like, no, he, you're blue. And then you're like, but I'm not, that's not right. And it just feels like getting closer to accuracy. And finding a way to really respect folks. Because the other thing too is like, here's the other thing I have a lot of trouble with. Let me just go in for a second. I don't want to be rude to like,

cisgender people or like, you know, people whose gender experience has been normal. But like, I remember in fucking elementary school, how many people, like how many just like, straight dudes would have a nickname that they insisted on being called by the teacher. You know what I mean? Like, there would be Edward, you know,

Edward Bartholomew and he'd be like, I go by Eddie. And then the teacher would be like, Edward and then he'd be like, no, Eddie and then he'd be like, sorry, Eddie. And then like, they would move on with the class, you know, and he'd be like, I go by Eddie. And then the teacher would be like, Edward, and then he'd be like, no, Eddie. And then teacher would be like, sorry, Eddie. And then like, they would move on with the class. Right. And it would be like, and then Eddie would be called Eddie

for the rest of the time. Right? And then like, when trans people try to fix, like, to give ourselves like a different name, everyone like freaks the fuck out. And I'm like, maybe we should just call it a nickname and then everyone would be like, oh, okay. All right.

Exactly. Like, Jacob, and I'm like, oh, my nickname, Sarah. And then teachers like, oh, okay, Sarah, you know, and then like, it'd be fine. Exactly, but it's stressful. Right, because people act like, oh, my God, these needy trans people asking to be called by the name that they prefer.

And I'm like, you wanna know, like, if you think that a trans person is needy for that, like try talking to a kid whose name is Tyler who likes being called Ty. Right, exactly. You know what I mean? It's a whole thing. Like, he's gonna fucking freak out in fifth grade

and he's gonna have a whole fit about it. And you're gonna get a call from his mom. Being like, he is called Ty. Ty is the name he uses. He is very upset right now. Can you please call him Ty? And the teacher will have to get in line. No, I love it.

This is just a fucking good way to explain it. Because we... It's just simple, easy shit. It's not that complicated. It's not that heavy people. No, it's not. It can be heavy if you want to make it heavy. Because even talking about your own.

I don't want it too heavy. When you get there, I mean, they come here and they're like, oh God, are we gonna get it? Like, he's gendered. They are gendered. Yeah, they're gendered. They're gendered. Yeah, and like, it's okay.

Right, it's kind of fun. But for me, because it's like, queers the reason. It like queers the whole thing. Because it's like, oh God, like, we're just so imperfect. How do we possibly capture the dynamism of gender in like these stupid little words? So you feel that there are other people that you meet

or like, oh, I don't do that. Like, they're also gender not conforming don't do that. Like they're also gender nonconforming but they've decided not to use they. Yeah, there are some people I know who are gender nonconforming who are like, no, I still use he. And that's fine too. Well, that's what we, how do we know? We just ask how do you identify?

They just ask how do you identify what you're pronoun. Hey, you just gotta be like, what's your pronoun? What do you use? What's your pronoun? That could be a fun game too. Yeah, like, I don't know. I just started as like some kind of, I don't know. What's your pronoun? Yeah, like anytime I meet somebody and I'm not sure I'll just be like,

oh, hey, like, hey, Emily. She's a dick. And then I'll be like, oh yeah, Emily was saying that she, oh wait, Emily, what brand did you use? Wait, is that what you do? Which one do you use? Oh, she. Okay, cool. No, Emily was saying that she has like a bunch of lube in the closet that I can look at later. I'm so excited to like check it out.

Exactly. And she checked with everyone. And almost, you do that way. But you see how easy that was. It was so easy. It was so fucking easy. Everyone's acting like check it out. Exactly, and check it out with everyone. And almost you do that with that. But you see how easy that was. It was so easy. It was so fucking easy. Everyone's acting like we're asked,

it's like everyone acts like I'm asking them to like, you know, like fill the perfect jenga tower and like whatever. And I'm like, it is not that fucking complicated. Do not like, do not be so dramatic about it. Like I will ask you things that are really dramatic and are really demanding. That is not one of them, okay?

Right, exactly. You're right, I love the way it makes so much more sense that way. Right. So what else do you have been like, what I think about the kids in school exactly. I love the way it makes so much more sense that way. Right. So what else do you have been like, what I think about the kids in school, like younger kids now, because it's so much more,

what are the percentage of kids you think they are, who are trans or born in the wrong body? Well, so. Or however they identify. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I think there are more people who are, like everyone has a long agendaajender spectrum, right? And that's something I'm excited about in terms of

the sort of next steps of this movement and sort of where it's going, is that it's about everyone kind of learning to hold that trans, like, identifying is trans, it's both an identity, but it can also be a type of experience, right? The being gender nonconforming is like, you can say, I am gender nonconforming. I identify as gender nonconforming,

but also everyone in, as an adjective, can experience gender nonconforming moments. Everyone has had it times when they felt gender nonconforming, even if they don't identify that way full time. Right. And so it's like, I feel like I live, like we're at the energy though. Like I feel like energy is so much more important

than like I think I mostly, I'm a lot of times leaving my masculine energy and not my feminine as my energy. That's why I think you're so hot. Right. Right. Like I think, but then, right. Right. Uh huh.

Yes. See, I'm leading with that. So maybe I don't even, yeah, who knows? Maybe I'm with the wrong people who I'm so open right now, but I'm trying to be more my feminine because I would like to be more submissive too. So, you know, but in my life, I feel like, I'm in this energy. Right, I feel like I'm like, I feel like I'm, you know,

in my, like I feel like I'm pretty power-butch, like in a lot of scenarios. And then, you know, there are other ones where you don't have to do that. Exactly. But yeah, I guess it's just about everyone being able to say, when are the times where my gender has felt like a box in which I did not fit?

Because everyone has had those moments. Oh, yeah, for sure being a, being a, I mean, yes, I'm like, God, be sure. Like when is here, when have you felt that way? I felt so limited. And now that's like the homey-to thing, like I feel like I didn't even know that when people would mostly work with men in this industry,

like entertainment. I used to work in politics. It was all men in charge and it was always about, I had to be like, yeah, go to dinner with you to talk about this business deal that you're going to think that I'd want to fuck you. I never will, but we'll have dinner just so we can have this and you'll see that I'm smart. And you want to work with me. All this shit I've had to do because someone wants to have sex with me.

And that was a thing. But now I feel like that's going to be changing now too for this generation, your generation, that I don't think it's going to happen as much where it was, that was the only way you would do business. Like I got, I got, most of my experiences working with men were, many of them were inappropriate. Like in the sense of I never, I feel like there was always an expectation that I was a woman or that was really pretty pretty but I wasn't smart because I was a woman. I mean, I had to go through so much of this like. I mean, the idea that pretty people can't be smart.

Yeah, exactly. Or especially like high-fem, pretty people aren't smart. Yeah, and I used to have to prove it. I used to say that. That fucking garbage. Yeah, all that stuff. Like I'm just, yeah, being a woman was, then a woman who talks about sex. Right. For example, like, oh, that's a big slut. She's a prostitute. She's something. I feel the same way, like, as like a femme who talks about sex, for example, like, although she must be a slut, she's a prostitute, she's something.

She's- I feel the same way, like, as like a femme who talks about fashion a lot, everyone assumes that that means, like, they like look at me on Instagram, and then they're surprised that I'm really smart. Yes. And I'm just like, oh, baby, like, you really should look at a bright pink lip and know that there's more behind it. Right.

Exactly. You should have the wisdom in this day and age to know that, like, that level of audacity generally comes with some real good brains going on. Exactly. You wouldn't be that odd. It's the brave reads. The brave reads are smart.

They're thinking, oh, they just think they're going to talk to you about your jacket. And also, high-fem, I feel like high-fem aesthetic is about a mastery of a specific art form. It's about learning how to do everything so impeccably. And that knowledge, you have to be brilliant to pull that off. Yeah, you're right. Good point. So it has to be all of these limitations. All of my mentors and mentors.

Really? Basically. Because who have you been to your mentors? I mean, it was in my early career, it was all like super, just powerful women who were my bosses or supervisors. Really? Yeah, like I sort of learned early on that like that was the people I worked best with.

Yeah, well men are tough to work for too, I think they can be. Can be. Many can be. I feel like these days I found a lot of men that I enjoy working with them. Right. And it's like yay.

And it's also, I mean, that's the thing that's nice about being this gender different is that it kind of, I feel like it sort of filters people out in the best way. You know, everyone's like, oh, LA so shallow. And I'm like, I've never experienced LA a shallow because shitty people know not to fuck with me. Exactly, this is what, exactly. I always say that I'm like,

they're like, oh no, we can't pull anything on that bitch. And I'm like, absolutely not, you can't, don't try. Well, right. I will literally end you in the New York Times. Like, don't fuck with me. Right, exactly. Right. There are people who have these,

I found that either, people have shallow hair. People might be, they just wouldn't be my people. I'm like, I don't spend time with people who suck or who are. Right. Just about that. There's good people everywhere you will find them. But, Elizabeth, I have a good place for you right now. Do you like LA?

I love it. The sunshine really works well for me. Yes. I feel like I'm like a little plant and I just need to photosynthesize every day.A. is probably a good place for you right now. Do you like L.A.? I love it. The sunshine really works well for me. Yes. I feel like I'm like a little plant, and I just need to photosynthesize every day. Exactly. And it's really good for my mental health, too. Like, the sort of feeling of space and having access to cute plants. Because in L.A., even in the most congested neighborhoods in L.A., there's still cute plants

in everyone's yard pretty much. Yes. Even in like, not know, and everyone's yard pretty much. Yes. You know, like even in like, and like not even as early just in like rich neighborhoods, like in most LA neighborhoods, there's still like some kind of cute little succulents around. Yeah, right, it's true. Whereas like in New York, that's not true. No, it's not true.

And everyone's concerned, I was just there, everyone's concerned about the weather, and I'm so sorry, it's raining, and I realize that moving to LA, you literally, that's like one piece of the pie, we don't have to worry about here. It's so nice.

Until we have to worry about it. Well, the rain. Not raining, but like, I don't even care about the rain here, because you know what's gonna be Sunday of the pie we don't have to worry about here. It's so nice. Until we have to worry about it. Not raining, but like. I don't even care about the rain here because you know what's going to be Sunday again, it makes me happy. Let's talk about parents. Like what like because you talk about hitting puberty, how that affected you growing up, I think a lot of parents are going through this right now. I mean, they're kind of not confused whether their kids are coming out as gay or bisexual

or whatever it is. So can you talk about your experience? You worried a lot about the book or what we should do? What advice for parents now? Yeah, the thing is, you should talk about it. The thing is, I feel like what happens when parents have a

gender nonconforming kid or just a kid who's different in any way. They're like, oh gosh, what do I do with this? You know, like, what do I do to help my child? And the irony is that the answer's really simple, but the consequences of the answer are deep. Right. The answer is just, you let your child lead. Right.

Your kids know their gender. You know what I mean? Kids have a very innate sort of sense of who they are in the moment. And it may change over time, but they know what they want to explore, they know what they want to explore, they know what they want to play with, they know what fabrics call to them and what clothing calls to them,

and they know how they want to express themselves, or at least what they're interested in trying out. And so the best thing that parents can do to raise gender affirmed healthy children who don't have a lot of gender shame, who feel good and are kind towards people across the gender spectrum, is just to let them lead. And be like, you can wear what you would like. You can wear a dress for Halloween,

whatever your early experience is right. But the consequences, though, are parents and shaming and teachers in religious institutions. Of course. So then that's what I mean is like, letting your child lead, it's a really simple answer, but then living with it is really hard.

But what I would say is that parents have a lot of anxiety around like, if I affirm my kid, this is great kid. I hope they can hear it in the recording. I love it. It's like we're recording in Seattle. I love it exactly. Oh my God. I love it.

I hope there's like thunder in lightning. But it's like, you know, there's, I mean, I went through this a lot with my mom, I love it. I hope there's like thunder and lightning. But it's like, you know, there's, I mean, I went through this a lot with my mom, and I think my mom really struggled with this when I was younger, is she was like, well, I want to firm my kid because there's nothing wrong with my child, you know, wanting to wear cute little dresses.

There's nothing wrong with that at all. But then when I firm my kid, I set them up for bullying and harassment and all this other stuff. Right. And bullying's huge. Yeah. And I guess what I would say is like, the world is going to have its way with gender nonconforming people,

at least until we build a more empathetic world. The world is going to have its way with gender nonconforming kids no matter what. And the only thing worse than facing bullying outside of your home is also facing bullying inside of your home. And even if it's like, even if it's just sort of trying to subtly steer your kid in a different direction, like kids pick up on that, and what it tells them is like there isn't even a safe space

here for you to be who you are. And I think that kids also are really are actually better at understanding complexity than we give them credit for. And that's the joke about so many things, right? The idea that you can't talk to children about sex, right? And it's like, no, you can say really simple things to kids. Like, yeah, sometimes touching can feel good, but if touching feels bad, you should say,

like you should say no and tell somebody. Like instead of just saying, no, never touch anyone ever, right? This is what we're doing. We got kids where they're asking me saying, no, never touch anyone ever. Right? Like, just what we're doing, we got kids with, they're asking the younger, younger ages now and you got to talk and you got to answer it, you can't go away to your older. Right.

You can just be like, sometimes people kiss. You know? And like, if you're thinking about kissing anybody, let's talk. Right. You know? Exactly. Oh, like, you know, and, but it, it's like, you know, the

thing of like, if you say that all touch is bad, then people can't, can't, if you don't acknowledge that they're such a thing as good touch, then people don't feel safe to name when they're being abused. Exactly. You know, like you set people up. And I think the same, it's like people think it's so complicated to explain that to kids and it's not.

It's really not. It's really easy actually, because kids learn what you can learn what you teach them. Kids learn so fucking much every single day. And kids. They're so smart. Kids come to you and people ask you questions. Like what are the questions that you get? What are the questions that you're tired of getting asked?

I don't know if there are many questions I'm tired of getting asked. Oh, I think the one that I get tired of is like, oh so when did you come out? Because people want like one story and I'm like, bitch literally read the book. Exactly. Like, there is not one story. Right, coming out is never one story and I'm like, bitch, literally read the book. Like, A, like there is not one story, right? Coming out is never one story. And like what you want is a fucking monologue and I'm not gonna give you a one person show for free.

If you want that, you have to pay a lot of money. Exactly, you know, there's a development process. You need to get me a state. We have to rent a theater, right? Like there's a whole apparatus here. Right, you should do it, rent a theater. I want to, I want to do a stage show. It's like, oh my.

You've been in a bunch of different cities while it was in March, right? April was like, okay. Yeah, I'm glad we're going to. I went to like 11 11 cities. It was bonkers. Yeah. Okay, so but what I like that you talk about coming out of your shell. Yeah. I'm coming out of the closet. Yeah, because that's the thing. That's why I have so much trouble is there with the idea of the closet metaphor. There's this idea that like you come out once and then you're done. And literally

no queer person has ever had that experience in the entire world, no trans person. You're about to sit down. Yeah, I'm done and finished. It's like no girl, you have to come out over and over and over again. And the reality is that you carry your shell on your back like a snail, right? Like you, and anytime you feel threatened, you reserve the right to go back into it. And that's the other thing I don't like about this idea of the closet is that we don't have, like, there's not an origin story around how queer trans people got in that closet.

You know, people are just like, oh, you were in the closet as if it's natural as if you were born there. And I'm like, no, you're literally chased in there by like an axe murderer of heterosexism. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like, like, by like a heterosexist's like cisgender culture that says like you must not wear dresses if you're a boy and you must like girls and if you don't, you're wrong and bad

and you're chased in there by an ax murderer when you're three years old. And then you like have to live in that closet with Jack Nicholson outside the door. Right, exactly. Like, you know, and like you don't come out and then just be like, and I'm here and then it's a glitter can explode.

Like you come out and then you have to fucking fight Jack Nicholson or like run away from him or like kill him or whatever in order to like actually like live in the damn house. You know what I mean? I'm just like, I need a more exciting metaphor and one that is that actually centers like the humanity and experience of queer and trans people.

And for me, it's like rather than trying to reclaim this idea of the closet because I just feel like it's too far gone. Because I'm like, I love closets also, right? like I don't ever want to come out of my closet if I could live in my closet I would like my whole house be my closet That's where I want my to like what are living rooms? Can I just have couches that are between racks of clothes like I would be in heaven? It's like why do closets have such a bad wrap? You know like beautiful spaces

Exactly But I feel like for me this this metaphor of snails in their shells is so much better because what it says is like, if a snail recoils into its shell, no one says, oh, you aren't courageous. People are just like, oh, you got threatened by something, you got spooked. So it's okay that you're in your shell, you got spooked.

Whenever you feel safe, come up, come back out. You know, and you don't. It's a loving. Right, it's a loving metaphor and it and it and it allows the humanity of queer and trans people to shine and it allows us to not be blamed when we protect ourselves. You hide yourself when you're threatened and that's a very natural human response and you're not being dishonest. You're not being deceitful. You're only protecting yourself as best you know how. And maybe you got spooked by something you didn't need to get spooked by, but also like,

we're just soft little snails. It makes sense that sometimes we're spooked like every human is a soft little snail. We're very soft creatures emotionally. I just, I just want to hug everyone in their shells. Like I just see so much compassion. And also like snails are really cute. They are cute. Okay. God, you have to go okay and

Gay I know Really gay love snail you glitter everywhere Do they they're slimy glitter trails all over your damn garden Like oh that queen was here. Why are they glitter? They big glitter? Well, they're not like they're like they're like shiny little like you know Snail trails like they leave little like little shiny shiny Like what when now? Yeah, I remember them. I had that had them in a cage I'm a kid. Well, you know, I'm missing me like a son. Well, I get some say-als are probably okay being like and as long as you're Seating them. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like I understand I'd like the whole I like the whole thing

So what would you tell people who are listening to this or are there kids or relatives or anything that are trying to figure out their sexual identity Along with their gender identity? I mean, what resources, what could they do, what would they say, we talked a little about what they could say, but like, they said a whole new world. Right. Which I love. Well, and again, the advice is really simple. Following up with it can be really difficult. But I just, we can never underestimate

the value and the power of the question, what do you need? What can I do for you? Is there anything I can do for you? Because if someone comes out to you, sometimes they don't need you to do anything. Sometimes they're like, no, I'm still, this is still a meat thing and I'm figuring it out and I'm like, want to take it slow, but I'll let you know when I need support or help. But I think it's just sort of being like, hey, I'm here if you need anything. And you can name a list specificity if you of what those things might be, right? Like, if you wanna talk about how you're feeling,

if you wanna go shopping together or explore something or like, put on something that you're not comfortable with, if you need help, like, going out in public, dressed in a different way for the first time, or you want someone to be your cheerleader while you do that, I'm here for you. You know, if you need help, like, buying your first tuba lipstick

because you're a little scared to go in the makeup aisle because you don't want to know how to deal with people looking at you, I'm here for you then. You know, if you just wanna like have a 12 hour conversation about all your feelings, I'm here for you. If you need someone to talk to mom and dad for you, like I'm here for you. If you need someone to like go into your school, like into the office at your feelings, I'm here for you. If you need someone to talk to mom and dad for you, like I'm here for you. If you need someone to go into your school,

like into the office at your school, and yell at your principal and tell him to shut the fuck up and step the fuck back or you're gonna call the ACLU, I will do that, right? Like I will do anything you need in terms of support because I'm not, like the hardest thing when you're trying to figure out who you are is the uncertainty makes it difficult to stand up for yourself.

When you're still not quite certain about who you are in this world, it's really hard to stand up for what you need. Sometimes having someone else who can stand up for you and use the fact that they're not the trans person going through it necessarily, but they're an ally who has all the power that being an ally comes with, that can mean the world. That's true, and kids need that in so many different areas of their life. And adults, even adults figuring shit out,

just need to talk to your boss, need me to suggest something, and you can do this for coworkers, you can do this for friends, but it's just like ask people what they need. Right, ask them before you start to give advice to. That's a universal. Yeah, because I mean, someone was talking to me the other day.

I have a problem that's like, over advised for they don't ask me for advice and start giving me advice. Well, it's because you're like a powerful, you know? It comes with the territory. I do that too and I have to like watch myself or like, nope, do not be pushed up to. Start the advice, yeah, yeah. Like people like, you know, go on their journey

in their own time. But that was like, one of my friends was talking to me. He Start there, yeah, yeah. Like people like, you know, go on their journey in their own time. But that was like, one of my friends was talking to me. He was like, yeah, my sister is like, bye. And she's having a lot of trouble. And you know, she's not out to like our dad, but she's out to everyone else in the family. And she doesn't quite know how to feel good with herself. And I just can tell that she's still a lot of shame

about this. What do I do? And I was like, well, solving her shame is a, like shame is a multi-year problem. It's not something that you, as her brother, can totally solve. And taking it upon yourself to solve it can actually feel like a violation of her boundaries. Which is so true and so complex to understand, we're more fixers. Right. So it's like, sometimes the best thing you can do is be like, if you need anything,

I'm here. I'm glad that you're on this journey. And like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like, not try and get in the way of what you need to do. But just let me know if you need help and let's check in every now and then. Right, and then check in more than once too, because people think they say things, but you can keep checking with someone. Right, yeah. My friend just had a death in her friend. Like a lot of my friends, it's the same thing.

Your friends need you, but they might not be ready yet. Whenever anyone's going through something. It's like, you gotta just be like, hey, I know you need some space to work this out, but are there any practical, easy things I can do, right? Do you need help with grocery shopping? Are you having, is your mental health okay? Are you showering and eating regularly?

The basics, are you covered on the basics? Do you need help strategizing those? Because sometimes when you're going through something, those things become difficult. Exactly. Do you need more culture resources? Can I buy you some cute shit You need help strategizing those, because sometimes when you're going through something, those things become difficult. Exactly. You know, like, do you need more culture resources? Can I buy you some cute shit and like send it your way?

Can I buy you a cute book? Is there anything you've been thinking about reading? There's a million questions you can ask that are non-invasive, where you're not saying I'm going to solve your problem for you, but you're saying, hey, let me be a resource in helping in whatever way feels good. Right, those are all great, right? Those are all very great specific ways you can help people love all that.

Can I help pay for a therapy session? Exactly. You know, would it help like, you know, is the financial burden of finding therapy, are you just scared to pay that like, you know, 60 or 100 or whatever dollars you have to pay? Like, you know, if me paying that would help you get started, I'm down to pay it.

You know, can I help find a therapist? Do you need help finding people? I can find to get some referrals from friends, like whatever. You know, there's like a million like tactical things you can help finding people? I can find to get some referrals from friends like whatever You know, there's like a million like tactical things you can do that's where we often get stuck right right Speaking for someone who gets stuck with details. I get it Yes, we didn't so easy to help others sometimes and not do those things for ourselves Exactly, but like being a strategy partner on the details can be really really helpful. Yeah

Exactly. Wow. I love how you put it I love how you put everything everyone has to get your book Um, and I have five questions questions I have to ask every guest. This is Cissy, a coming of gender story, Jacob Tobiah. Thank you. I already have like three literally. I'm ordering on Amazon three copies for parents, friends of mine that they need this for them.

I was telling you I was just a Michigan and I'm like this is exactly what I wanted. It's such a great roadmap. If anyone who wants to understand what's really happening, I think this is the future and it's really going to help so many people. So thank you for writing this book and for being here. Well, thank you for reading it and for having me. Yes, of course. I love it. I was so happy about your text and then I saw you and you're amazing in your glitter.

Okay, five questions, right? Yes. Something you would tell your younger self about relationships. I would say that learning to just send that text and not overthink it is the best gift you'll ever give yourself. I like it. Biggest turn on. When someone touches your knee for the first time when you're on a date and it's going well and they just put their hand on your time when you're like on a date and like it's going well and they just sort of like put their hand on your knee and like and you're just like and like electricity goes to your entire body. Oh my god that makes you less. That's like the g-rated one I guess. I don't know what the R one is because

that's like how do you choose. Biggest turn off. Biggest turn off is when someone when people won't own up to their trauma. Yeah. When people won't own up to their trauma, when people won't come to the table and be like, yeah, I'm fucked up too. Same, now we're going to this five quick questions, but yes, people like everything's perfect, everything's perfect, nothing's perfect. We all should. Yeah, don't pretend you have your shit together.

No one does, like stop that. Exactly, let's fuck. I'll fuck it out of you. What's, I'm gonna fuck the trauma right out of you. What's the most important personality trait in another person? It's a simple one, but it's a good one. Empathy.

Something you wear that makes you feel confident every time. My grandma's earrings. Oh, is that what you're wearing? No, these are like from in a state sale, so they are someone's grandma's earrings, but they're not my grandma's earrings. Okay, got it. Do you go to state sales in LA all the time?

I haven't been to a bunch, but we should. We should, I love it. We have to find the ones where there's like a bag of clip on earrings in a plastic ziplog, like a sandwich bag, and it's just like $10, take them off. Then you go great, and then you take them all, and there will be at least five gems in there. Yes, and all the scarves and the bags and the purses.

I would do it with you since we're neighbors. Okay, thank you so much for being here. We can find you at time and the best place to find you. Just on Instagram at JacobTobiah, Twitter at JacobTobiah, and JacobTobiah.com. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this show and I love hearing from you on everything. Let me know what you think, which shows you loving. Also, thanks for sharing this with your friends. And you know, if it's helped you, it'll help others.

Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer, Jamie, and Michael. Who is it good for you? Email me, feedback at sexwithamlee.com. you