Sex With Emily - Getting Cliterate with Dr. Ian Kerner

Episode Date: August 29, 2017

There’s no doubt that way we view and engage in sex is constantly changing. On today’s show, Emily sits down with friend,colleague, and sex therapist Dr. Ian Kerner to talk about sex, relationships, eroticism, and more! Emily and Ian talk in depth about the discourse of intercourse, meaning that sex isn’t just about penetration. They also cover sexual cliteracy, explore the different types of non monogamous relationships, core erotic themes, and how sex has changed over the years. Tune in for a truly inspiring show! Thanks for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: Magic Wand, Sportsheets, Intensity Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everyone, thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm speaking with my colleague and friend, Dr. Ian Kerner. Our discussion takes place in his New York City office, accented with real city sounds like low-frequency jackhammers outside construction and even the humming of the air conditioning. For the past 12 years, we've always prioritized superior sound quality and content for each podcast. However, I think what we covered in this in-depth interview is way too important not to share with you because of a little background noise.

Some of the core themes that Dr. Kroner and I discussed, sexual literacy, how glitter it are you? The discourse of intercourse, ways in which couples can explore relationship models, other than monogamy, understanding core erotic themes, and interesting evolutions and changes that Dr. Kurner has seen throughout his career. All this and more, thanks for listening, enjoy the show. 5-6 Eyes that mock our sacred institutions Betrubized they call them in a fight on me Hey, Avaline, you got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken, he thinks you're kind of cute The girls got a hair stand, oh my The women know about shrinkage

Isn't it common, what do you mean like laundry? It's shrink? Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I want to feel so drunk Being bad feels pretty good. You know Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily.

We're talking about sex relationships and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemely.com where you can easily subscribe to our podcast. Check out the amazing website, our blogs that we update every single day to help you have better, sex, and relationships. And you guys, alternative sex month is not over yet. You've got till the end of August, August 31st at midnight to apply. So what's alternative August?

Well, we're going to celebrate you and how you've moved outside your comfort zone. Like have you explored new things, new sensations? You maybe for you being alternative is that you just start talking about sex with your partner. You open up a new dialogue about things that you want to try, you know, things that make you feel great about yourself, places you want to explore with your partner or even, you know, with your own sex life. Hey, you know, masturbation is sex with someone you love.

All you have to do is email your story to feedback at sexwithemily.com and we're going to pick four winners who receive Amazing prize packs and we can't wait to hear from you again. August 31st at midnight is the deadline Also you guys follow me on social media. I love hearing from you You can follow me on Instagram Facebook snapchat and Twitter. It's all at sex with Emily and we keep it safe for work You guys so don't be bashful. Don't be ashamed follow us We love that and I really think you're all gonna enjoy the show I know I enjoyed the interview and really getting in depth with Dr. Kroner I'm so excited to share it with you and I can't wait to hear what you think of the show

So you can always email me and let me know. Thanks everyone. Thanks for listening. Hi We do need that. I'm usually sitting here, so far, it's been to like see what the patients say. This is actually good for you. I would think the perspective I could do a little money therapy on you. I'm with Dr. Ian Kurner. I'm sitting here in his office as an infamous office. I think it's infamous because very well known licensed marriage and family therapist, sex therapist, New York Times, bestselling author of she Comes First. Hi, yeah. Hi Emily.

Glad to be here in your office. It's nice to have you. I hope that they're doing some work on the facade of the building. You know, it's one of these old West Village buildings. Yeah, I love it. And you've been in this office for a while? You know, not that long, about 18 months. I was in Soho before this.

Okay. But I like it here. Yeah, I like it too. I was in Soho before this. Okay. But I like it here. Yeah, I like it too. I was just thinking, like, these walls could talk. I mean, how long have you been practicing? Close to about 20 years. Okay. 20 years.

Yeah. That's a lot of people that have come through. Mostly couples. Where did this all begin for you? It all began back in my own childhood and college with my own sexual issues and dysfunctions and fears and anxieties and uh there we go right on time hasn't been doing that for the last two hours but that's New York it's called the New York lock and I think that that That's New York. It's called New York Lock.

And I think that that always opened up a desire for me to feel at ease in the world and to normalize my own insecurities and my own issues. Yeah, those insecurities when you are teenager. Was it teenagers that high school? Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, really in all of my early sexual interactions with women, I suffered from premature ejaculation and I felt very embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated and

kind of sexually crippled or sexually disabled. There was no internet, there were no men's magazines, there were no easy-to-read books, there was just Alfred Kinsey and Masters and Johnson and Helen Singer Kaplan and studies and technical data and I sort of had to make my way through that to kind of come through to some sort of experience but I was with a girlfriend at the time and she thought, well, this is the sort of thing that we could talk about with a therapist because I also had so much anxiety and I didn't really even know how to talk about the issues. So it wasn't just the experience, it was that I didn't have the words to match my internal experience or the vocabulary.

So we went to see a therapist and it didn't save the relationship. It didn't save me But it started a process of communication and sort of open and evolve Everything sort of unfolded From there and and here I am sitting on the other side Talking to lots of men with the same issue lots of women with different issues Lots of women with different issues, lots of couples. Because who's the thing when you said you had pee as a child? You were what, 8, 17, 18? For a few years, like until college? No, through. I mean, pee is, it's a manageable condition, but it's not a cure.

So I would say even up into the present, I mean, it's something that I'm conscious of, something that I'm aware of, something that I'm aware of, something that I'm mindful of. You can take an SSRI to sort of delay a ejaculation, but there is no... But there's side effects and no... Yeah, there are side effects. There's no cure. This is a managed condition that involves cognitive and behavioral interventions,

it involves insight, it involves sexual creativity, it involves empathy with a partner, and the ability to communicate with a partner involves a lot. I understand that's a magic condition obviously, and I thank you for being so open and honest, but I know you've talked about it before, I'm sure, but I feel like so many Of my listeners can completely relate to this so many men that listen to show and women and the fact that saying that it's it's managed because you as

Oftentimes you will say well, I had it. I don't want anymore. I think it just maybe depends on on the person and your conditions But it is something that I but I always say like going through a table. it is a practice. Like it's, if you just, let's say you, we talk about edging or we talk about different things you can do, you can't just stop doing it. Like if you stop, the condition will come back. Absolutely. So, you were on my show recently, you called in. I'm so glad to be sitting here with you. We talked about she comes first and I think I actually got in trouble. That, just kidding.

No, by the way, you really love that book. Like you love him. You love him. I'm obsessed with she comes first. It's amazing. I talk about it all the time. I'm like, okay, I won't talk about it as much as time. But that book really was, I'm just gonna say it now, if you missed that show, but it was groundbreaking. I mean, I do talk about it, I'm gonna show all the time, like every man should read it, women, like there's so much useful information in there, but was that really, when, in that book was, you just had your 10 year anniversary or there's a 20

I should know this was it your I was practicing as a sex therapist got certified and then that book came out of clinical experience and Personal experience and was kind of the culmination of a first chapter right when you did it come out 2003 right, okay, so like 15 years. Yeah, yeah. That was the anniversary. Through your practice, you were just sitting You're thinking, God, these guys don't know women are complaining. Like what what made there so many things you could write about you You taught your next part to so many of these issues that people come in and talk about So why did I pick that issue? Oh, no, yeah Well, because it was personal to me because I really

believed that You know men Needed to be enlightened in the area of sexual literacy. Today we talk a lot more about the clitoris. We have books by Emily Nagoski and Debbie Herbineck and there's so many articles in men's health but there was nothing really at the time. Nothing, that's why I still groundbreaking. I think that we were all living under the shadow of what I call the intercourse discourse. And men believing that the main way to satisfy a partners through intercourse and wanting to have

the hardest possible penis that could last as long as I was going to wait or the jackhammer. That was my goal for a while too. Right. Everyone goes, they still go through this. That was my goal for a while too. Right, everyone goes, they still go through this. You know, and- And- Right, and you can have the hardest penis, and you can last as long as you want to last.

You suck in bed still, if you don't like to come first. You suck in bed. And you will suck in bed. And a lot of women who felt, well, what's wrong with me too? Like why isn't- I- Shouldn't I be having these vaginal orgasms, shouldn't I be having these intercourse-based orgasms?

So I felt that both men and women were kind of hobbled by this intercourse discourse. And so I wanted to kind of start to dismantle that. That's why everyone needs to be a little bit. And I wonder if I even focused a little too much on oral sex? I mean, no, no. No, it's the chapter. Okay.

And I just tell you that if it's the chapter that every man should read, and woman, well, you just want to even understand your own body to be able to explain it to a partner, because I think a lot of women don't even know how to explain what they want. But anyway, I think it is the most detailed, specific, useful chapter on oral sex. I may have ever heard of that. It's the whole book. But I mean, really half the book, two thirds of the book. And I guess for me, oral sex, going down on a woman,

was so important, not only because it gave me a kind of feeling of mastery and ability and dexterity that I completely lacked with my penis, but it's also such a vulnerable, connecting, deep, intimate experience. And I still talk to so many women who wonder, do you guys like this? Is it taking too long? What are they thinking? Smelling? too long, what are they thinking, smelling, tasting, and a lot of men who still approach it as sort of nice to do, not a must have, something that's sort of a chore, and I really

think that they're missing out on like a zen mindful, connected experience. How do you teach that? I try to teach that, but it's true. I think that there's a lot of men who are just, yeah, they're like it's not my thing I can't do it. Right. It's takes focus. They feel they don't want to fail at it whoever doesn't so I think it's important message But I sometimes feel that for better or for worse and really it's only for better with she comes first because the techniques are so detailed and I am so passionate About oral sex

Sometimes I'm a little frustrated because it's just labeled an oral sex book. I think of it as the orgasm book. I mean really like you she comes for like paint just even just the title is amazing. I always feel like it becomes part of my like member or she comes first you know. I mean it's just it's a thing and it's true. You could write it today. What else would you put in there? What would you about it? Well it's interesting. A colleague of mine, have you come across this new book called Being Cliterate by Laurie Mintz? Yes. Okay, so it's a new book. It just came out. She actually is very lovely and refers to me and she comes first. But she's really just focused kind of the literacy and the importance of thinking clearly as opposed to vaginally and all of the possible

ways of being literate and thinking literally. And I think that sort of, so she sort of out there with that message in a kind of very essential way that I feel like I do what she comes first, but it often. But that was your own boy at the time. I don't think it's a different way of saying it. Maybe she's just just the clitoris. But you know what's interesting too, Emily, is that I really wrote, she comes first before the renaissance of the sex toy.

You know, right? Like 2003. Interesting, right? Writing it in 2001, you did not walk into England to have a hundred beautifully crafted vibrators. It was a different world than it was. Even when I started 12 years ago, sex toys were not what they are now.

Right. So it's been an explosion. So then you're like, you got your tongue, you got your fingers, hands. Right, so I feel like yes, you have your hands, you have your tongue, you have your penis, which you can use much more clearly, and you have this whole new world

of fantastic sex toys that are out there. Yeah, do you like sex toys? I do, I love them. I don't really use them a lot in my own personal sex life. I mean, I've been with one woman for 20 years and we have figured out what works and we enjoy it, but I love sex toys. I mean, I would love to use more of them in my own sex life. Yeah, but you've got to say something. I don't think this is the thing that people, I've been talking about this a lot lately, personally and professionally,

and that people are like, it's sort of like a cop out to use a toy, or it's not a natural orgasm. If it doesn't happen, you know, with like PV sex, and I'm like, well, sometimes it can happen though, but it doesn't mean it's taking you away from it. It's like if you want to have ice cream, night, you have chocolate, you can be love it. And then sometimes you're like, let's have some sprinkles.

It sounds like better. Just different. It's a variety. And I feel like we've come a long way in the sense of 12 years ago when I started, and maybe when you started 20 years ago, it was like, you had to say like, to men all the time, they were so intimidated by toys that I'm like, it's not going to take over for you. Like, it can't go to the movies.

It can't. But now, but there's still, so it's not as much of that, but it that are like, it's not gonna take over for you, like, it can't go to the movies, it can't. But now, but there's still, so it's not as much of that, but it's still like, it's not. A lot of men still believe that. They do, they do. A lot of men, I mean, I'm working with a couple,

like, they are breaking up because she is not been orgasmic for a whole duration of a marriage. And she actually, early in the marriage, introduced a vibrator into the sex play and it was really helping and he didn't like it. He didn't like that he felt threatened by it. Right. So how do you talk to men? I mean, I'm sure they're getting separated for other, breaking up for other reasons. Maybe not. Well, I mean, orgasm not having.

I mean, I'm really known as a sex therapist and so that's kind of the issues that people are coming in with. And so. So it is. So he's like, she can't use his fire. Well, now he would love for her to bring a vibrator back in, but it's too late. So the water on the bray right too much, right?

And we can you ever see a couple of first time you're like, this is done. Like, you know, like the gotm in the air, the test, like looking at couples with like, contempt and the way they speak to each other. Well if it was really done they wouldn't be here. True. You know if it was really done done they may come and think in it's done but if it was really done they probably wouldn't be sitting here. And my job isn't necessarily to undo what's done. Sometimes getting undone has taken so much work and so much

self-reflection and so much courage. It's important that it stays undone. You mean like if they came in because of a crisis or an affair or sex issue or anything that's been going on? That's the bottom here. You know, what about a relationship where one woman has really had to exile a sexual part of herself for a whole marriage. It's not really only her husband or her partner's fault. It's her fault as well. They own the relationship together, but a sexual part of her in this relationship just never really came alive in the way that she wanted to or Something that was alive became exiled and you mean the orgasm

Never came alive. Are you saying in general in general in general? And I would see that's a problem was a therapist you get too general. Yeah, let's get there No, it's not a problem. It's amazing, but I know I'm just thinking about how, I would say, you know, it's more responsible for our own orgasm. And so I was still hearing the woman to the year I've never had one. But I can be with, so that couple can be here. And she could really have made a decision

that she's ready to leave or wants to leave or wants to open up the relationship or really do something structurally different, and that partner may be hearing this for the first time, or really getting it, has heard it a hundred times, but is really getting it for the first time, you know. Because of the presence of a therapist being here? The presence of a therapist? Yes, very often.

What happens more seriously, maybe she's, they're separated or she left, or they just haven't been sexual in a very, very long time. It's not necessarily my job to keep them together. Right, no. I mean, no, you're probably not gonna say you, this has gotta be done. I'm sure there have been time to do that.

But, no, I get it, just have a place for them. I mean, that's why I say every couple I think needs therapy. Like a maintenance, I feel like your card needs to check up and every single couple on the planet needs therapy and I don't even know why I'm still... Frank, do you want to run your couch? I'm going to go sit here and just I could try. I could be so nervous. I feel like cooking for like some kind of... I don't can't cook either. I don't know what I can do. Now we're going to take a quick break and give a shout out to our sponsors. Thank you for supporting them and for supporting the show. We'll be right back. Going back to you said opening up. I wanted to talk to you about opening up relationships. So now I'm an agony, alternative relationships, polyamory. There's so many different ways to talk about open relationships right now.

There's a million different ways. Configurations of it. But, you know, that's probably been coming up again probably for 20 years. But I feel like in the last five to ten years, more and more so, maybe even more less view. People are like, oh, it's really an option. It really can work for couples. But then there's sex relationship therapists who think, no, that could never happen. If that happens, your relationship's over, it's going to be disaster.

What's your, what do you say? Have you helped couples navigate this? I'm sure you do. I do. I think that there are more options than ever for couples that are normalized and can be mirrored in their lives by other couples. And these are really exciting options. I mean, it's, you know, beyond just what you can do on your own

and the privacy of your own bedroom with your partner. There are really opportunities to be more sexually adventurous together, to go to sex parties, to swing, to bring in other partners, to engage in some form of consensual non-monogamy where you may have play partners or experiences on the side to, you know, more full-blown polyamory. There is a wealth of options. And I'm always surprised about who goes for and who doesn't. I just put stuff out there's options. Do you do? So you put it out there. I put it out there. I put it out there is a menu of possible choices

to reflect upon. When you come into this office, you get an opportunity to throw a lot against the wall, to reflect, to risk a little bit of vulnerability in terms of what you want to say. But nothing has to be linked to a behavior or an action. Everything that's happening in this room is just reflection. And so if a couple is really stuck in their sex life

and my mind starts going to some version of sexual adventuristness shared or some version of consensual non-monogamy, I'll just put it out there as I'm not saying it's for you but here's a few different options that couples have pursued. What do you think? Right and they're probably like oh no I mean there must be such a range of like I am I have been shocked so sometimes clearly you get that a couple is hungering for this and has something in their DNA that makes them ripe for this. But I recently was working with a couple that traditional couple, uh, married, professional careers, had some serial monogamy before that,

a couple of kids now, really tuned out, not really listening to each other, not sexual anymore, a whole range of symptoms that come from being disconnected and they came in ready to separate, really ready to separate, very painful, very depressing session, about halfway through I was like, well before you separate I just wonder if you ever considered any of these other structural dynamics that might allow you to not just quit on each other right now. And I just put them out there and I did not expect any of them to take. And they came back about a month later. I thought that they were done and separated. We settled

up their last bill, everything. And they came back saying that they really took to heart the session. There was a, this isn't so long ago, there was that article in the New York Times that was out about open relationships and they've been trying it. And they're together. Right. Exactly. I mean, this is the thing. I think that's, that's amazing to hear. And it's incredibly fraught. And it isn't easy. And it's creating a lot of new conflicts and a lot of new friction, but they're trying. Better than the old friction, maybe.

It's a new friction. It still has that novelty. The new does that the same goddamn issues, right? Because I think it's interesting because I think that monogamy is hard. Non monogamy is hard. There's struggles in all of it. And in a way, it's almost like they're taking on a new,

you know, we say couples should take on a new activity together, learn something new together. They're kind of learning non monogamy together and even though it's stressful and they're Getting that sexual. Absolutely. And I really think that a couple of years ago Even a year ago They would have gone straight to separation and eventually divorce. They may still go to separation and divorce But they will have gone off the monogamy highway. They will have gone off road off map You know and given something different to world. Right. Because why not? So do you have couples that come in here and

you actively are helping them like work on a night? Absolutely. Some couples come in that specifically the work that they want to do. Okay. Start talking about it, adjust it, figure it out, launch it, relaunch it. Lots of couples come in now and that's sort of the centerpiece of the agenda. So how did you learn about this? 20 years ago, would you talk about this? When did it start becoming more of your practice? Well, I mean, it's become much more of my practice in the last, honestly, the last two to three years. Right. So do you feel like there's kind of a tipping point? Yeah, because I feel like there's kind of a tipping point?

Yeah, because I feel that there's many more options for couples, and again, there's much more mirroring. What do you mean by that? Well, that there's more people in society doing it that look like... Like, more... ...ample reflections of who you are. Yeah, people think, oh no, it's ponytail guy.

Yeah. Man, it's like sometimes co-hosts. Yeah, that's a guy with a ponytail, and they're doing drugs. I feel like more young people are also graduating from college or launching into the world with a more fluid non-binary, just a more fluid approach to life and relationships and sexuality and gender in general. So I feel like it was a sort of stuff waiting to happen.

I mean, I think it's very helpful that there are at least here in New York, so many amazing sex parties that you can go to that don't feel like sleazy per se. Of course, on. Tell me about the ones here that people have you been to them. I don't go to them myself. No, you couldn't. You'd be like, no. Then what am I going to do? If I run into a patient, I'd be like, sell me. Right. No, please don't post as an Instagram. That is true.

I mean, they have them, I guess, all over the world. There's a lot of places, though, where I get emails from listeners like in the middle of wherever. I don't know if there's a sex party in that town in Kansas or not. But you can create one. But it's interesting because I feel like that now it really is an option and that people, more people are asking about it and taking to it. Is there a couple that would come in here or what kind of couple would you say would

not be right for it? You're like, absolutely not. This couple could not handle nominating me. I don't know. I don't want to say for sure because I would have said a couple that's under tremendous stress and pressure, but you've seen it all. But I've seen that couple come in ready to break up where one partner doesn't want to break up. You know I've seen couples that have been

extremely rigid and conservative and how they approach sexual relationships. So I don't really I've seen people who are both adventurous and are just looking, you know, they both share different types of adventurous experiences and peak experiences, and this is just an area that they haven't ventured down yet in pursuing peaks. But I guess at this point, I don't have any clear rules. I'm just curious if there's anything, I think it's healthy not to have a... I don't want somebody to feel pressured into it. I don't want somebody to feel like they have to. Now I have worked with couples where one partner feels very, very strongly about it and really wants to try swinging or being in an open relationship or as a particular vision

of what an open relationship looks like and the other partner is going along for the ride and is in the passenger seat and is trying to make it work, but really just isn't happy. And you can tell, those people out on board. Yes, that person looks disperited and drained. Have you seen couples come in where they were like that, but then eventually they come around? I'm sure you've seen all iterations of this. I always say the same thing, yeah, if they're not on the same page, you can't force your

partner to do it. But I was working for a long time, I don't know if you call it, a triple or a thrupal, but you know, I love it. Yeah. A thrupal, a thrupal, a triple, but yeah, they were polyamorously together, knew each other and constantly renegotiating the rules of Non-monogamy and one person who was the secondary wanted to be the primary kind of became the primary and then the other primary Decided they needed a secondary, but then the secondaries didn't like being secondaries and needed primaries And so the whole thing just like expanded and expanded until, believe it or not, the end, I just ended up working with two of them as a couple.

And so they worked their way actually to monogamy. Right, that's so interesting. It was too much. From total polyamory and non-monogamy to monogamy. Right, because there are no rules to it. We get to make up our own rules. Do you think that monogamy should be the only legal union on the table? We're not meant to be Managibe's?

No, actually, I do believe in the power of the parabond. I think it's certainly socially conditioned, but I think it's probably genetically conditioned as well. And I mean, I think that there's a lot of power to the parabond. I have a very personally, I mean, and I don't ever try and use, although I was writing, she comes first beginning with personal experience. And I do often look and locate myself in these situations. I don't try and map my own what I'm doing

onto any of my patients or anybody, but I think I've experienced a very powerful parabond that's lasted 20 years and I don't envision it. Right, of course it's possible. I'm just saying for a lot of the patients that you see, you know, do you just feel like sometimes, I feel like now it is a different time because people think, oh, it can't touch this crazy notion of your neighbors who are swinging and having key parties. It's actually can be a lifestyle for people

that are working in that monogamy. Like I said, just as much of a struggle is not. But I'm gonna think about it. Yeah, I think it's a good question. I do think that it should be more an option. I like talking about it on the show, and I like we will see healthy examples of it and having couples on the show that it does work

because I believe that there's a lot of outspoken, there's a lot of voices out there, people that a lot of people respect in our space that are like, no, it can never work. Not many of them left, but who think it can never work, or it's not right, or it'll tear a relationship apart, which can't be true if you don't handle it correctly. But yeah, I don't know.

I think a lot of it does have to do with your, you know, maybe hire wired or DNA. What I don't like is sometimes though, when a couple comes in and one partner is more sexually adventurous, wants to open up the relationship, maybe even wants to leave the relationship. And the other partner who's more conservative really relies on marriage as an institution or as a definition.

You are a wife. I am a husband. This is a marriage and that's supposed to give that a privilege in the room, a husband, a wife, a marriage. And I don't like that. I don't like when somebody's just using the language, the discourse of some sort of culture. Like just because we got married, that's the way it should be.

Right. No, I think there's a lot of challenges around it. I would just like people to see that there's other options, wherever works with it, they get to define the rules of their own relationship. So when couples come in and they have conflicts with, they're not mismatch libidos, but more like what turns them on, like erotic desire. How do you work with couples like kind of mapping that out?

I know that's a huge question, but I just feel like we talk so much about communication and how do you, to down and talk to your partner about these different desires that you have. I mean, yeah. I know there's not like a tool, I don't like, I wish it was a quick fix, but what works? Well, I think, I think in general, couples have often developed a physical vocabulary of actions that result in a sexual experience that either works or doesn't work, and they have not developed a verbal or psychological vocabulary to the same level of sophistication.

So they are going through a series of physical actions, sometimes with no discussion, no talk, no psychogenic stimulation. And so I absolutely believe that psychogenic stimulation, the ability to think your way through a rousal, the ability to fantasize your way through a rousal, is extremely important and extremely powerful. And I know that, I believe that whole wholeheartedly I've seen that in my own relationship. I went from somebody who was afraid to utter a word during sex. I wouldn't have been able to comment on my partner's body or on my body or what I

was noticing in their reactions or in my reactions to not only developing a comfort with that and finding, wow, it's so, we are firm in assuring to be able to just praise and communicate and talk and engage that language to actually be able to risk a bit of my own core erotic themes and the things that turn me on to share that with a partner and open up a fantasy world, an entire fantasy world that's purely imagination where the actual sex itself doesn't change at all. Right. But the psychological context around the sex is so vulnerable and exciting and risk-taking. Yeah. And so I really believe that that is part of the key to a long-lasting, sexually-fulfilled relationship is being able to open up that psychogenic dimension. Talk about this to the Chororotic theme,

figuring out what turned you both on. So let's say couples cut, right? That's, yeah, that's part of it, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I love the core. I mean, I've been talking a lot about the Chororotic theme and that fancies such an important part of relationships. You've couples in here, I'm sure, from all different stages, that one has more of an active

fantasy like the other one doesn't, but what kind of like homework do you give couples or assignments or how do you, what if they're like, I have none, I don't have any fantasy, I don't even know where to start. What would you tell them? Well, I'll often, you know, go through a menu of possible fantasies. Do you have like a list? I mean, I'll start talking about submission, domination, voyeurism, exhibitionism, I'll turn them on to a lot of progressive porn sites.

What do you recommend? Tell me, how many progressive porn sites are you telling? I love a lot of the female directors who are Erica Lust and Jackie St. James and some of the sectors. I'm just curious to see what say that. Yeah, no, I'm just curious if everything comes to mind. That's so you actually, you're like, go home and like I like the porn that you pay for. Yeah, I like the King.com. King.com.

Rusty at pay these days. What's that? I've tried to think of where I still kink from San Francisco. What's the reason I like the porn that you pay for is because generally the porn that you're getting then are from artists who really care about what they're doing are more committed to the theme of what they're doing who aren't just chasing advertising and clicks by just showing body parts So sure. Body parts, there's stories, there's narratives, there's bodies that look weeler and are more

authentic. So many of the people that I work with who complain about porn just complain about how boring it is and how it just all starts to just look at this. It does because they're not right, they're not search. I think that's a good point. I talk about a lot of the things you mentioned, but really you're right. It's kind of like if you have to pay for it, you get where you pay for it. So it can actually be a great tool for couples to learn together.

I mean, absolutely. We talk about that a lot. That's so interesting. Oh, I was working with a couple. And just the theme of comic books came up in superheroes. And she gradually got to reveal... She would never have revealed this that she had like a supergirl fantasy. She wanted to be dominated and she wanted

her partner to pretend to be a super villain who had kryptonite who would like knock her unconscious with the kryptonite and take her and then they used Halloween as a way of like She got the supergirl costume and the boots and the cape and it was fantastic for them It was like led to mind blowing sec because the she was really tapping into a Core erotic theme which was interesting too. She had also had a history of being sexually assaulted in college and feeling very had a history of being sexually assaulted in college and feeling very powerless in that situation. And so the idea of being I guess, of being super girl, of being a strong woman, but still being able to take an experience that had been very powerless and painful and transform it through pleasure was very rich for her.

That is rich for trauma. If you can do that, people who've suffered trauma, that if you can't kind of turn it around and use it for literally or sexual, that's, I mean, I'm sure you do amazing work that round that. A lot of, kind of, everyone needs sex therapy. They do. Sometimes people are like, oh, I have this fantasy

or I have this fetish, like, why, why? I need to get to the bottom of it and I think that that automatically pathologizes it in a certain way you don't need to know the why but sometimes there is a why and sometimes getting to the why is really interesting and fascinating. I was just gonna say I had a patient who came in with a very sort of rigid fetish around sleep fantasies like Somnophilia like the idea of making love or having sex with women who were unconscious and clearly like we know this from the Bill Cosby stuff and he he

had never crossed those lines although it had some weird sort of like drunken blackout type sexual experiences that were a little scary for him. So he pushed up against the hard boundaries of this and he was dispirited and scared about it and just felt you know I'm never gonna have the right partner and I'm always doomed to repeat this and even if he found a partner who was sort of game to explore this fantasy They would get bored of it and anyway like we tried I mean I worked for months and months around just exploring it and Examining in it and trying different things and then

Eventually like a childhood memory Emerged that had never come up for him in years where he grew up in a home with a single mother who worked I think six days a week, 17 hours a day. Her only day off was Sundays, but by Sunday he would wake up at like 7am excited to spend time with his mother and she would be dead asleep and he would try and wake her up and tickle her and be with her and just wanted wanted her wanted the attention of his mom and she would just say go away go away and she wouldn't I mean the poor woman was working six days a week like I couldn't get out of bed until about noon, and he just got there and just broke down

and tears with this memory. And it just became clear that this was some kind of reenactment of that early experience, some attempt to take that pain that had been dissociated and experience something through pleasure and through some kind of mastery. And after understanding that, do you still have that same urge to have that? That became loosened up.

Right, wow. It became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, it became, way, but it was able to soften up enough so that other types of fantasies and themes could emerge. I think when we connect those dots, that's why I love therapy. Literally walking in here, I got so excited. We were sitting in the lobby. I was like, I just love therapy. I just, I just want to lay it out. No, seriously, loving in therapy, but it's true. Like those moments when you have this kind of action to get to therapy. I know that's the thing. I know that's the thing. Probably like therapists on every floor. There's probably about 500 therapists. Do you think I should just go knock and see if anyone's available? Like I've kind of joined to here in New York or need a little therapy. No, but that's I mean,

it is kind of the old school with the way I'm going to. It's like therapy. I have another session. We've got to go. Okay, don't you want to? No, we're we're going to wrap up. We're out of time. Sorry, you say to a therapist? We're out of time. Like, can you hit your break through? I think we're gonna do that. We have to stop for today. We have to stop. Yeah.

We have to stop for today. Usually when I'm just about to break through, like, we have to stop. Do you bring a check? Okay. I have one more question for you though, but you can answer quickly. My final question for you is after years of doing this, what would you say, 20? What would you say is the main thing that has changed? If there's anything that you've seen

like the shift in, we talked about polyamory, is there anything that you think, wow, that just wasn't around when I started. Like toys we talked about. Yeah, toys can sell stolen on monogamy. Yeah, it doesn't come out. Well, a lot more kink. And a lot more kink from a kind of like a pansexual perspective

A lot more kink from a kind of like a pansexual perspective of like hey maybe this is not exactly my orientation, but almost an orientation. And so seeing like different new types of sexual orientations that don't fit neatly into straight or gay and that are thematically driven. Right, good answer. It's exciting time to be a human and having sex. Thank you so much Ian Kerner. Thank you Emily. Um, Dr. Kerner, you're amazing. We'll have all your contact info. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or come people can find you? You're welcome to see any of your work. We'll wind you this forever. Thank you for taking time.

Absolutely. And we have to stop now. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.