Sex With Emily - Go With the Gender Flow

Episode Date: October 17, 2017

Sexuality is a spectrum, and so is gender identity– there aren’t just two choices. On today’s show, Emily talks with three people about what being genderfluid really means and how to understand it all! Emily is joined by Max, producer of the upcoming film, L: A Story of Genderfluidity, Dany, the main actor in the film, and Jacob, the film’s trusted advisor. Dany and Jacob, who are both genderfluid, with the help of Max, talk with Emily about the social, historical, and political aspects of genderfluidity. This show gives a great insight to life, struggles, terminology, dating, and so much more. Don’t miss your chance to learn beyond the binary! Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: Fleshlight, Sportsheets, Womanizer 2Go, Mystery Vibe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily, and today's show we explore some of the gender and sex labels that we're hearing a lot more about and might not completely understand. Hey, I'm still learning as well. What does it mean to be gender fluid? Non-binary, cisgender, trans-fam. Well, my guest today bring a fabulous and fresh perspective to explain what this all means socially, politically, and historically. Of course, we also answer your sex and relationship questions. Enjoy the show. Hey, Emily. You got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair stand.

Oh my. The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common with all of it? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks. Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my god.

I'm off here. I'm so drunk. Being bad feels pretty good. But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex relationships and everything you between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com because it's a party there. Every day we're updating it, we've got new blogs and videos and stuff going on there. It's really easy to also subscribe to the podcast. It's some really important for us that you

subscribe. It just helps us out with the show and I know that we're all super busy every day and there's a lot going on, but when you just hit the subscribe button, it doesn't really change anything for you. It just means that you'll get two episodes a week and you'll know when they're available, but it just helps us with life and the show.

And then keep it free. It just helps, got it? Thanks guys, I so appreciate it. Also, follow me on social media. It's all at sex with Emily and Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat and Twitter. And we have a good time there. We document everything that goes on here. You know, we get like 20 pounds of Louvre delivered, our guests, all this fun stuff happening. Also, we have a sexy contest going on this month because it's October. And we know it's all

about Halloween. So we're doing a contest. We want to know your sexiest tricks or treats. So you can email me and say, you know what? I've got this go-to move in the bedroom that works every single time, like this one thing I learned I love, or like I can only have multiple orgasms by doing this one move, or I, this is my go-to blow job move, maybe that I learned and no one else knows about.

I just want to hear what works for you. And then treats. What's your favorite like a kuchamot? What's something that you needed the bedroom every time? Certain toy, condoms, lube, like a sexy piece of like lingerie underwear that you're like, oh every time I wear this it's just amazing. So I want to hear from you, sexy, trick-or-treats. Email me feedback at sexwithelmy.com with the subject Halloween and Enter By November 1st and you know I always give out the best sexiest prizes. So do that stuff, I appreciate it, I love you all, thanks for listening and I'm jumping in this show

because I'm so excited for my guests here today because I just met them and I already like love them and want to be BFFs. One of them I've been very close with already, I have Max Landworth here. And Max is a friend of sex with Emily. I've known Max for a while now. We've done some production work together, and he's just a great guy, and I really support Max. And all the things he's doing, it's a socially conscious production company, and he's just really smart,

and he has a movie called Elle that he's doing around gender fluidity. And I wanted to expand my knowledge around it, and also help all of you, and we've got some people here that's going to speak to this and we're going to have a diary. No, it's going to be a fascinating, eliminating conversation for everybody. So welcome, Max Landworth.

Thank you, Emily. I am so glad to finally be on your show. I can't believe you haven't been on it. I know. It's been three years, four years. I've known you. I've helped you with the production stuff. I've been in the office.

You've helped me move into the office too. You've moved into the office. I helped you move out of your place. And now I'm on your show and I cannot believe it, I'm so excited, thank you so much for having us. Well, of course, this was the time because you're doing really important work. Thank you. So let's talk about the film introducing our guests here. I'm going to let you start.

Cool, so yeah, we are working on a feature film right now called L, and it is going to be one of the first films, if not the first film, to specifically talk about gender fluidity, and how that relates to interpersonal relationships. It's also the first film, as far as we know, designed to inform LGBTQ allies and the general public about gender fluidity and non-binary identities. But, it's told in a way that's not preachy and it's very fun and adventure-filled and everyone's going to have a great time with it. So, with us today, we have one of the actors from the film, Danny David,

as well as one of our trusted allies and advisors, Jacob Tobiah. And we are so thrilled to be here. Thank you for being here. I think we have to first start by, I wanted this to find some terms, so even you might have just lost people when you even said gender fluid, binary. I kind of want to go through some of these things, so they even understand. I don't know what that means, I've heard some of that, it's confusing, so let's talk about it. I would love to talk about it.

And I think one of the biggest things to point out right off the bat is that the terms, while there may be a lot of terms, it's nothing to be scared of, it's nothing to reject right out. It's just, it's a new language that we all want to learn to help everybody else feel comfortable and to accurately describe how people feel

and how people identify. So it's just being mindful and being a better person. So everyone should just be open to it. Absolutely. Because we talked about like being sexually fluid on the show, we get a guess on Nico Tortarella. Do you know Nico? Right?

I love Nico. I love Nico. I mean, how hot is Nico? It's absurd. It's ridiculous. He was in here and it was like, I literally almost like had an orgasm on the show with him. But I didn't really, but I wanted to.

But anyway, so we talked about that. And about how he's, you know, he sleeps with men and women and transgender, he's kind of open. So we talked about that and I think that people get that, but let's talk about the difference made. Being gender fluid and sexually fluid, if you want to start there. Sure.

Wherever you view it, it might be comfortable. Yeah. Well, I do not identify as non-binary or gender fluid, so I can only speak off of my own research and my own communication with people who identify that way. So I will definitely let Danny and Jacob kind of take the reins with it. So Jacob, well, can you tell me about your story? Introduce yourself. Yeah, well, my name is Jacob Tobiah.

I am a writer, producer, author of Fourth Coming Memor Sissy with Putnam Books at Penguin Random House. I only introduce myself that way because I am damn proud of it. As you should be. Yeah, and I'm sure that Donnie and I are similar in this way, and that I use like a gazillion terms to describe my gender identity Right for me It's like I feel like if we're gonna make sort of like a very campy Sarah Jessica Parker kind of analogy

I feel like I think analogies might help people no analogies are my favorite right like my writing if you don't like analogies Our metaphors my writing is insoperable because my whole life is just like analogy after analogy, after metaphor, after metaphor explaining how my identity came to be what it is. But I feel like the sort of sex in the city metaphor would be like, for me, labels around gender feel like purses. You have one or two that you're go to that you use all the time, but you want a collection. You want a lot of different words to describe who you are. You want a lot of different accessories that help

illuminate to the world around you, how you understand yourself. So what are some of your purses, your accessories around gender? So I use the term gender queer all the time. I use the term trans to describe myself. I'm fine with the term gay actually in a lot of context because that was so much a part of my historical experience. I use the term femme.

I use the term trans feminine. I use power femme. Sometimes goddess. Every now and then I'm a... Okay, but that's term trans feminine, I use power femme, sometimes goddess, you know, every now and then I'm a, you know, okay, but that's so, right, so okay, so that's great. You have all the options, but I'm thinking, okay, so gay was the first one when you started, like what about your history? Let's talk about when you started figuring out that maybe you weren't like everybody else

and what age was it when you're like, I'm not sure if I'm attracted to men, women, if I even identify as like a cisgender male, but I'm not sure if I'm attracted to men, women, if I even identify as a cisgender male. But I'm not cisgender. You're not cisgender. Yeah, but we can talk about it. I'm so confused. See, all right. So here's the thing.

I mean, like, A, the language is complicated. Like, it's so common. I already thought I understood that part. No, no, no. So, I mean, I think the thing that, like, you know, the thing that I, the way I feel about gender language is it's kind of like, it's kind of like the internet. You know, it's like, there's new terms that are emerging all the time. Every day. And it's not that we're, it There's new terms that are emerging all the time.

And it's not that we're making new things up. It's that we're just having different ways of talking about getting information. So I think what we have right now is all this language is sort of emerging. So we have more ways to talk about what's already been going on. So I'm not cisgender.

Because cisgender means that if you're assigned at birth, everyone, at least in Western medicine, is assigned male or female by a doctor, right? You were not identified as male. I was identified as male. I thought that's what it means. You were born as a gender. Cisgender is about how you feel about how you were assigned. Oh, okay. So if you're cisgender, you like what you were assigned and you feel comfortable in the gender identity that quote-unquote correlates with who you are, right? So like when you're assigned to male at birth by a doctor, everyone assumes that you're going to grow up to be a man, right? And that that man is going to feel comfortable for you.

Male in that. Yeah, and the same thing with female and woman, right? And so the idea is that you're like part of the trans spectrum, you're part of the trans community. If in some way, shape or form, you don't really feel at home with the, or don't identify with the gender that's supposed to go with your sex. So, so everyone else was like, you're a man, you're a boy. Yeah.

When you were a kid, you're like a boy, a boy. And then at one point, where you're like, I'm not so sure, I'm a boy. I mean, like super early on. Like what age? Sometimes people, their experience is very much like, it's like, oh, like I am a girl, right? Like some people are like, I was assigned male by a doctor

and I know that I'm a girl. And that wasn't quite mine, right? So this is what I'm saying, because people with trans are like, it's one of the other, like I was born as a girl, right? Like some people are like, I was assigned male by a doctor and I know that I'm a girl. Right. And that wasn't quite mine, right? So this is what I'm saying because people with trans are like, it's one of the other. Like I was born as a man, but I think I'm a woman. But this is why we're talking about like you didn't kind of fell both. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about gender fluidity. Yeah. And that's what gender fluidity is all about. It's about sort of expanding the idea that transness isn't just like, it's not just an expressed train from Boston to New York, right? It's not like a one-path kind of like, you know, you try and get there as fast as you can from one spot to the other.

You know, my gender journey is like, I feel like a bumblebee. You know, I'm just like buzzing around and I'm trying out a lot of different things and landing on a million different flowers and I'm really excited about all the pollen that I've collected on my haunches. And I want all the experiences of gender. Because when I was a child, I didn't know what a word was for my gender identity. But I just knew I had gender coming out of my ears. You know, I just had so much gender.

I was super masculine at times. I was super feminine at times. Like day to day? Yeah, like my dream day as a kid was like, go run around in the woods behind my house. Like play with, like sword fight with sticks, get super dirty and like running around the creek, play with some bugs, scoop some clay out of the creek bed,

make a pot for my mom, go pick some flowers to like put the in the pot. In one day. Yeah, then go like shower off or like, you know, get clean because I don't want to make the house, you know, a mess. And then like play with some cute barbies, watch a science film, and then like, you know,

go to sleep. Okay, right. So that's, I love that. So that was a great example. Where did you grow up? I grew up in North Carolina in Raleigh. So your family, like, could you probably, couldn't you really put words around it?

They're probably like, what is going on with Jacob? Like they probably didn't understand, did you, right? Or were they like, oh, they supported, they support you. Like, sure, pick flowers, roll in the mud. I mean, well, I was born in like 1991, right? So when I was a child, there certainly wasn't a big conversation about the trans movement, at least in raw ranging culture. And so a lot of it was like, I think my dad just kind of was like,

OK, this is something that Jacob's going to grow out of. This is an experimental phase. And then my mom was kind of, I think she saw that it was more. But her struggle was different because she wanted to affirm who I was naturally. She wanted to like affirm my femininity and my masculinity.

She wanted me to feel whole, but she also knew that if she did that, she'd set me up to live a life that might be harder. You know, I have this story that I tell all the time and I write about it in my book, about when I was a kid and you know, I went to Toys Arrest to get my Halloween costume with my mom and she asked you know, like, to Toys Arust to get my Halloween costume with my mom.

And she asked, you know, like, well, who do you want to be for Halloween? And there was one year when I took a risk. And I was like, I'm gonna ask to be something that I know I shouldn't ask to be. How old were you? I was seven. I was six or seven. And I had just seen the film at the time, and let me give a preface that I'm not encouraging anyone to practice cultural appropriation on Halloween. But I was seven and was not as politically informed

as I am now. So 1998. So I had just seen Hoko Hanthus, right? And all I knew, no one, if you're white, in your relationship with this podcast, do not go dress up as an Native American person, not cool, never cool, not a good idea. What I knew about Hoko Hanthus, though, at that age,

was just that she was the most badass of the Disney princesses, because Mulan hadn't come out yet. And she ran around the woods and I ran around the woods and she loved cute little dresses and I loved cute little dresses and she talked to trees and I also talked to trees.

You know, so it just sort of works for me on a lot of levels. And so I looked to my mom in this very tender moment and say, you know, kind of all with all the courage that I have, knowing that I'm walking out on a limb, I think I want to be a polka honours, you know, because I saw the costumes right there, and I was like, I think this would be great.

And she, you know, she has to decide, okay, I can say yes to my kid and affirm who they are, but then they're gonna have to, A, we're gonna have to tell their, you know, their, their dad about this, then they're gonna have to walk around the neighborhood and address for, with that address with everyone to see. And like, can my child or can I, as the parent of this child, survive that?

Like right, well, like, will this set up my kid to have a really, really hard, terrible life? And so ultimately, she kind of looked at me with that, that really kind of like sad look of concern, you know, when parents would have to say no to you. And she was like, well, could you be another character from the movie? And of course, I was just like, mom, that's so dumb. I don't wanna be anyone else from that movie.

You think I should be John Smith? John Smith sucks. Like, I don't wanna be John Smith. Are you kidding me? And so, you know, I think that that kind of sums up how my parents related to it, you know, like. So what were you, Pocahontas? No, I didn't, I can't even remember what I went on to ask,

but it was something, because I was so bored and a little bit heartbroken that I don't even remember what I ended up going on to. It's so hard as a parent. I'm sure, I can't even remember what I went to ask, but it was something, because I was so bored and a little bit heartbroken that I don't even remember what I ended up going on. Right, because it's so hard as a parent, I'm sure, I feel like your mother's so loving, loves you, sees who your spirit is, wants to support you and then, and just doesn't know how.

So excited, right? And you know, we had to grow together in that way. Right, okay. And I think that's one of the most fascinating things from my journey, you know, understanding all this is how young kids are when they start, when they are, you know, kids are very smart. They're very in tune with who they are. And it's learned behavior that really deters them from expressing who they really are. And the kids who identify

as trans or non-binary, you know, they have the hardest time in schools. I think, I think it was a study came out from gender spectrum, a national organization, and I think they said 74% of transgender and non-binary kids in school feel uncomfortable even going to school because of their gender expression. So the kids are the ones who are really facing the the brunt of this. I have a question for you then, and then we're going to get to Downey's story in one minute, but the question is about trans versus non-binary. Now that there is this gender fluid umbrella the brud of this. Right. Well, I have a question for you then, and then we're going to get to Downey's story in two, one minute. But the question is about trans versus non-binary.

Now that there is this gender fluid umbrella that people can kind of identify with as well, do you think that there's some kids who are like, oh, I thought I was trans, maybe I'm more gender fluid? I think so. Or do you think it's, is it just sort of depends on the person? How does that? Yeah. I mean, I think some people think of themselves as trans and then sort of realize,

actually, I'm sort of in the middle. That's a more ordinary middle. Like, in the middle feels okay for me and sort of having a little bit of both feels okay for me. Okay. Like, there's totally people for whom that's their journey. You know, and sometimes I think people act like,

because I'm in the middle, I'm somehow threatening someone else's ability to say, no, I'm a trans woman. You know, and I'm like, no, no, no, like, this is not a mutually exclusive endeavor. Right. You know, like, we can have our cake and eat it too in the situation. Exactly.

I'm allowed to feel myself to be mid-specter, to be between, or a combination of genders. That doesn't stop anyone else from being like, no, I'm a woman. We're not challenging other people's ability to identify how they currently identify. I don't think we're just warning if it's been this great thing for some kids are like, oh, I've just, I only know trans right now. So that's unthinking, but maybe I don't,

sometimes I feel like a woman and sometimes I feel like a man. Maybe they thought I had to choose because I was born as a boy, but sometimes I feel more girl. So I had to, you know what I'm saying? So from my understanding in Jacob, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, transgender can kind of apply to that general umbrella of, right, so that's the umbrella.

That's the overall. And then within the trans umbrella, there's binary and non-binary. So a binary trans person would be somebody who is assigned male at birth and wants to transition to be female. Right. Or vice versa.

That's how I always understand. Whereas a non-binary trans person may fall under the gender fluid, gender queer, pansexual, any of those. They should put a flow chart on the website. Can we do that? I have access to your many of them in the video. Let's do that, you guys.

I think this is really important information if you're like, well, I'm still learning. So let's do that. Which again, I mean, it's not always so cookie cutter. No, it's really not. But as far as like a general idea it helps me to figure out Okay, Donnie. Hi. Hi. I'm so glad you're here So tell me about your story Well, I was born in Iraq

1989 and then we refugees from Turkey to Sweden So I grew up in Sweden and I came to LA seven years ago Okay, and then so what about your upbringing? I grew up in Sweden and I came to LA seven years ago. Okay. And then, so what about your upbringing? When did you start feeling like you were born as? As a male in a hospital in Iraq. But then, yeah, as soon as I remember age of four in Sweden, in kindergarten. Okay.

And what happened? What do you remember feeling at age four? I immediately started to experiment with dressing up in the kindergarten, in dresses, and always immediately attached to the girls. So, okay. So, then you were dressing up and how are your parents? Well, I mean, they're as serians, so they're Christian Greek Orthodox,odox. But my dad and my mom, my mom was, because they're middle-eastern, so mostly the male and the family is, they gonna be in charge most of them.

But my mom wasn't sure what was going on, but my dad was very strict. He was like, no, no, no, no. So. So then you left and moved to California, eventually. Like everything's okay now. I grew you left and moved to California, eventually. No. Like, everything's OK now.

I grew up in Sweden, like, till the age of 21. OK. But I went through a lot with my parents for them to accept me. And now they accept you? Yeah, now they're good. Yeah, now, but I had to educate them. And I had to make them understand since the age of four, you know? So tell me more about the conversations with your parents and some of those childs. Well my dad was very like, because I immediately started playing with barbies. And I was more

like, I was very, very feminine. So I wasn't actually interested by the age of four, five, six to be with the boys. Or, you know, it was later I started to discover that, okay you know like I like soccer because my brother is a soccer player and then I started joining that and then I was with the girls again. So that's when I found a fluid. The more the fluid, so now you're with some days you identify more male. I would immediately like, oh, this is, I don't know how it was, but I fell in love with hanging out with the females and dressing up. Okay.

So let's talk about them, the history of gender fluidity, because just because we're talking about that, does that mean that it's necessarily a new term or new concept? Not at all. So let's talk about that. Which is one of the funniest things. I think I've heard so many people say, oh, this is all just a trend with millennials.

And that is ridiculous. It is so ridiculous. The right, it's so ridiculous. I mean, the history of gender fluidity, well, it's had different names, thousands of years, and has been accepted in other cultures around the world, even today. It's accepted.

So I know in Native American culture, there's two spirits in ancient Hindu scripture. It's Hizra, which is a third gender. It's in the Quran. They talk about this. And in those cultures, these people who identified as, what we would call gender fluid are people who were held in sacred, esteemed positions within the community. They were people that would be advice givers and...

Profits or... Sort of, sort of, sort of, sort of, sort of, mystics, but they would be held in high esteem, they would be renowned, of, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, of, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, sort, British came to colonize it. That's when it really kind of became suppressed and same with in the Americas when the British came and took that kind of identity away and then we categorize them into little boxes. Male-fremile pink or blue. And enforcing gender norms was actually like

a huge part of the colonial project. Because you know, you have these indigenous cultures that were like, we see gender completely differently and they were like, no, you have to see it the white way. You have to see it like the white way or the white way. The white way, the white way, which is not the right way. Right. And so I think it was, it's interesting looking at

even just the way that gender is often, I think, I think, left out of history in the way that we understand it. You know, we don't teach necessarily that, oh, part of colonization, a strategy of colonial rule was to enforce the gender binary really rigidly and recruit everyone to start using it. But that's not taught in a lot of, I mean, it's taught in like, really,

if you go to a really great university maybe, and have a really great professor. But certainly isn't taught in like, world history and high school about the history of it. Right now, not at all. Yeah, the idea that gender fluidity or that gender nonconforming people or gender career folks are new, it's like saying that green tea is new just because matcha lattes are now the hip thing.

Exactly. You know what I mean? It's like, it's the first one yesterday. Yeah, but you understand what you're saying. So what is happening now then? Why now? I know Max, you're brave, you're making this film. L, everyone can check that out.

L, l, the movie.com. L, the movie.com. So what do you think is happening right now, politically, culturally? Do you think this is the time? Do you think this is where people are really ready to hear this and understand it? I mean, I know there's a lot. We've a long way to go. I feel like even transgender issues are even more so in the forefront right now. We're like, oh, I kind of understand that, but this is like another concept, I think that people are kind of wrapped their heads around. So why now, and what do you hope to see happening?

I mean, it feels to me like a lot of where this is coming from is that, you know, the internet doesn't solve everything. I'm not gonna be one of those people who pretends that like the internet's gonna solve every social justice problem. But there is a degree to which being more connected, globally, and being more connected to other people helps folks, I think understand from an earlier age that like they're not the only one.

Because a lot of times I think what it feels like, I don't know if this is how you felt on you when you were a kid, but when I was a kid, there were moments, even though somewhere in my heart I knew like, no, no, there are other people like me, this is not weird, this is normal, this is good. There were still moments because I didn't have like

another like, you know, gender nonconforming friend to run a world with the same way. Like there still moments because I didn't have another gender nonconforming friend to run a room with the same way. There were moments when I thought that maybe I am weird, maybe this isn't normal, maybe this isn't okay. Nowadays, kids are on Tumblr by the age of by the time they're 11. They're seeing all this language at such an early age. I just think that's so great. It's so good for people's mental health. It's so good for community outcomes. It's so good for self-esteem. And I think that we're going to see this generation that's grown up knowing that this was possible, that's grown up understanding themselves in all these nuanced ways and not feeling alone and feeling empowered. And we're just going to take on the world. Yeah, because that also leaves it to,

when you feel like you're the only weird one in the whole entire community in a small town, that's when I started questioning, there's probably no one like me. I'm a woman then, you know? There's nothing else for me than to transition. I'm a trans woman, but then when you feel that there's more, more you grow up,

you see around you that you don't actually have to choose a box. You don't have to choose to be a woman or a male. It's okay to float between. And I think it's important to see around people that they are like you, so you don't have to just go to trans. You know, you don't mean the opposite gender. Exactly. You can actually be okay with what you're floating around with.

And then even just outside of gender, I can't say that the experiences are. Exactly, you can actually be okay with what you're floating around with. And then even just outside of gender, I can't say that the experiences are the same, but for me growing up in Florida, in high school before I came out of the closet, it was the same feeling. It's that feeling of... Just say you can't. Yeah, that's...

Yeah, we didn't talk about you. No, we didn't. The gay is just so everyone gets that. Yeah. I know, it's so easy. It's like what apps. They think they get it. They get lots of it.

True. But it was that get lots of it. True. But it was that same feeling of being isolated, of not sure, there's nobody else like me. So it's that same fear and that same insecurity that really, that it all stems from. But then, I mean, to Danny's point, the whole point of our film is to show that people are just people, that people exist outside of the box is in the labels. And I mean, the whole premise of our film is to show that people are just people, that people exist outside of the boxes and the labels.

And I mean, the whole premise of our film is that it's about a clueless marketing strategist in San Francisco and his job is literally to label and categorize people. And after his longtime girlfriend leaves him, he's forced to find a new roommate and ends up forming this unlikely friendship with his new roommate who happens to be gender fluid.

And they go on all these adventures in San Francisco together and it opens up his eyes to the truth that people are so much more than the labels that we give them. All of these terms, all of these things, they're just words on a spectrum. Gender spectrum, political spectrum, racial spectrum, religious spectrum, everything all exists on a spectrum. And if we continue to divide ourselves up based off of those labels on individual spectrums, we have no chance of ever growing and learning and thriving. And that's the whole point of this film is that we have to see past those labels to develop

a pattern. I saw like a, exactly. So I saw a scene. I saw the scene when Donnie, you meet your roommate, your roommate comes out and you're in a dress. Like, you know, he had you signed you up as a roommate, thought you were a man, like a, you know, and, you meet your roommate comes out and you're in a dress. Like he had you sign you up as a roommate, thought you were a man, like a, you know, and he's like, oh, but now you're in a dress

and so confusing and you're like, well, some days I wake up and I wear a dress, so I feel like a woman, am I feminine, and some days I'm in the masculine, and how realistic is that in your life? Or would you say for people, like do you feel like days you, and I'm just curious how it rolls for you?

I love my question. Yeah. I, me personally, I feel my style of what I, as a trans feminine non-binary, my style is very, very like tomboyish as a girl. I love your whole style. Like I want your boots, I want your shirt. Yeah. Like I'm not very like, in my life as Danny David, like I'm just, I don't wear like dresses

or anything because for me personally, I don't feel like that's my style. Got it, right. You know what I mean? Yeah, like a normal cisgender or whatever, you know. But there's so many times where I can literally see the change in my energy and like, first of all, going to a gay club, right? Like I go to a gay club, I have sneakers, I have a little bit of a five o'clock shadow

still growing a little bit heavy beard, and like a cap, and I just a t-shirt with my friend. I immediately approach, being approached differently, then I am when I go with my heels, tight skinny jeans, and a crop top. I immediately, that's the girls' bathroom I go to, and I'm okay with that. And then I go as a male looking, I float. You float, right. I go to the groceries looking. I float. You float. I go to the groceries.

I'm just like, okay, a sweater and a cap. I feel so good because I'm just like, okay, whatever. And for me, it's not like, oh, I'm choosing. It's had to choice exactly. It's how you fill them up. Like today, I'm like, do I want to wear heels? And then my overalls are really easy to put up. I get it.

I get this. It's just like something inside your soul that is just like, I can't be explained. I'm trying, what's our own I'm trying to explain to this guy. I understand also like dating for both of you. Explain that to me, like who you attracted to, does that change as well? You know, men, women, trans, fluid, what, tell me.

Yeah, I mean, like dating for me has been, it's very interesting because, you know, I mean, if you think about it, it's like, I feel like I wear a little too much lipstick for the gay boys and don't have the right equipment for the straight boys. It's kind of this interesting thing where probably the people that I should be dating are

like I think likely like by or pansexual or sexually fluid dudes, right? But the reality is that while there are like a gazillion people who are actually by and pan and sexually fluid, there's like maybe gazillion people who are actually by and pan and sexually fluid, like there's like maybe five or six who are like out. And who are like, who are like, you know, self-actualized and like living openly and dating openly

as by or pansexual folks. Like if you go on, you know, like, okay, Cupid or Tinder or something and search just for by people, like for by guys, it's like pretty, you know, it's pretty slim pickings. It is, yeah. And that's, like mathematically, we know that that's not related to like the actual amount of bisexuality in the world, we know that it's pretty slim pickings. It is, yeah. And that, like mathematically, we know that that's not related to the actual amount of bisexual

in the world. True. We know that that's related only to the stigma around bisexual and pansexual. And there is just, yeah, there's just stigma with everything. So with all of this, I think that in the gay community, you can't really be by, then you're just gay or you're, I understand. You're too femme, right? Yeah, exactly.

So what about your sexual, like, have you been with men and women? The way I frame it, because I try to find it's the most inclusive, broad, reading way to frame what I want. And I'm like, I'm into anyone who wants to get into me. Okay. I like that.

Yeah, so you've been a track, but that means more that's more reactive than. A little bit. And that's the trouble is that I think a lot of times because I'm sort of quote unquote non-traditional, right? Because I'm sort of the new thing. I have to be really, I have to pursue really strongly when I want somebody. But when you're masturbating, what are you fantasizing about? Well, I mean, like most of the time it's like, I feel like it's, you know, it's for the most part,

it's like masculine of center energy, right? Like that's what I call it. Is it a masculine of center energy? Yeah, like masculine-ish on the spectrum energy, right? I'm asking more masculine. That's what I call it. Is it a masculine of center energy? Yeah, masculine-ish on the spectrum energy. Right? I'm into more masculine. This is more about energy. I really think it, I understand all that. And that's not to say that I couldn't be with someone

who is wearing a really fierce lipstick. Right. But I need, it's the energy that I'm into. Right? And maybe calling it masculine is stupid in this day and age. Right? You can't get rid of masculine and energy. You can't get rid of feminine because we're the

how we get to be. But I feel like we can a little bit. Right? I'm like, not today. Okay, well, I can clarify that like, you know, it's more about like a kind of like, a dominant assertive energy, right? Because that's not strictly masculine.

No, you're right. You know, like, if I'm, I'm very my masculine a lot. I like to be more in my femininity. Yeah, and so I think like, it's about sort of energetically what you seek. That's kind of, people are like, so what's your sexual orientation?

And I'm like, oh God, with the box is. And they're not inclusive enough. And they're not interesting enough. And they're not like sexy enough. I'm like, I want to talk about the energies that I want. I get it. Yeah, what about you, Donnie? Yeah, I'm agreeing with Jacob. And I'm very like with the one. Dominate. I don't know. It's masculine. Yeah, I like, yeah, like, cool, masculine. But I also, I'm I'm very very I can get very attracted to like Like a person. I don't care if it's like male or female or trans or you know all those I understand that if like exactly what Jacob says I'm attracted to energy and if somebody like gives me that energy that it's like you know

Oh, and I'm just like oh I, I want to get to know you. That's how I would. Right, no, I never go like, oh, you need to be a male and I will not date anyone else. You know, I understand that. It's about attraction, which is like this elusive thing. Am I attracted to him? I'm attracted to him.

It's more like you're just more open. Yeah, I get it. The soul has no gender. Exactly. Oh, beautiful in the hax. Jacob Donnie Max. Thank. Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Jacob Donnie Maxx. Thank you for being here.

This is so fun. I'm going to take a quick break. Give a shout to our sponsors. I love you all. Thank you for supporting our sponsors. And we'll be right back. OK, let's continue our conversation here. Let's talk about gender, fluidity, and what's going on politically today.

Well, without getting too political, with the current administration, there are a lot of threats for the entire LGBTQ community. But in terms of the positive and the good and what's actually happening for the community, but in terms of the positive and the good and what's actually happening for the community, there have been state bills across the country that are starting to recognize third genders on government issue documents. So our film is endorsed by 12 LGBTQ organizations. One of these organizations is the Intersex and Gender Queer Recognition Project. And their entire goal is to increase visibility on government documents. And so in California, the California Gender Recognition Act, which is state bill 179, would enable people who are transgender, who are intersex, who are non-binary, to get a state-issued

identity document that accurately reflects their gender expression and their identity. So that's on the ballot right now, you're saying, or it's going to be? Yep. So it passed the California Senate, and I believe it has passed the assembly, and it is now going to Governor Brown's desk to be signed. And California would be... It's governor, okay.

Yeah, and it's... But it's progress. And California, if it passes, would be the second state to do it. Oregon also passed this bill, as well as Washington, DC, which was the first, which is not at state, but it's the first place that put this into motion. Because the government documents are so important because you ask somebody who's non-binary to show their ID, they may not have an ID that accurately reflects their identity. And according to... So what would it say then?

Well, first, it says male female. Yeah, so if they were assigned male at birth, they may still say male, and they haven't been able to get a female ID. No, well, what would it say under the legislation? Non-binary. Yeah, and some places, you can have an X or an NA or a, like, there's kind of a bunch of different options that are on the table in terms of, you know, across the country and around the world, too, because they have other countries have these kinds of

designations, you know, for what they can look like. And I mean, it's really great, because it's, I feel like for me, it feels like the sort of M on my driver's license just feels like inviting a police officer who pulls me over or inviting some person at the airport to give me a shitty look or to discriminate against me or to just kind of look at you and be like, huh, it's just opening the door for them to be like, well, this doesn't, what I'm seeing in front of me

doesn't line up with what I, what I see on this paper. Right, no, I could see that. And then when it says, I'm buying here, I can also be like, what does that mean? Like, you know, there's gonna be so much education that comes along, but these bills pass, then we'll get that. But I could see that being like a, yeah, I'm sure you guys get a lot of that.

And part of me is like, you know, there are moments when I'm like, I think it's great to expand options, but I'm also kind of like, do we have to have gender on all of our ID docs? Like, you know, like, why do we really need it on a driver's license? Like, what are we, what do we need it for?

I was also, I mean, this is not really related, but I just saw that the Boy Scouts are now going to be accepting Girl Scouts? What? Yeah, they're going to be accepting. Whoa. Which is amazing. So now my next question is, why can't we just have Scouts? What? Yeah, they're gonna be accepting. Whoa. Which is amazing. So now my next question is,

why can't we just have scouts? Why does it have to be boy scouts and girl scouts? And why does it have to be, you know, why can't we just have a scout? Aren't there already girl scouts? So what's gonna happen? It's gonna be like, I don't wanna be in the girl scouts. I wanna be the boy scouts or just the scouts.

I think we should make everyone join girl scouts. Right. Yeah, everyone has to be girl scouts. We can just be like, I mean, I did do Boy Scouts when I was a kid and actually kind of loved it because I loved the woods. I loved, I loved whittling. Like, you know, like whittling,

like make little sculptures out of soap because you learned on soap before you whittled wood. And I like loved that part and like tying knots and like arts and crafts parts of it. Right. But I don't know, I feel like if we're gonna dissolve anyone, like if we're gonna sort of force anyone into like, giving up their name, either we're gonna do this, we if we're gonna sort of force anyone into giving up their name,

either we're gonna do this, we should do general neutral scouts, or we should just make everybody be girl scouts. Yeah. Well, that might probably won't happen. That will not happen. That will not happen. But I feel like, it's funny,

because I remember one of the whole thing was about gay boys being discriminated against in the boy scouts like years ago, and now it's the girls' conjoin. So that's progress for the scouts. I think it just be scouts, I agree. Yeah, okay, so that you're right. That just happened this week. And I think conversations about this are, you know, expanding everywhere, not just in the girl scouts and not just politically, but in the media and...

Yeah. What do we see in the media right now? Do you think it would be representative of... TV, I feel like, has been doing a really good job of getting inclusivity on screen. I know, Asia Kate Dillon is the first non-binary actor in a non-binary role on a major TV show. And that is huge. Asia has really paved the way for non-binary identities and then shows like shameless and shows like the fosters have really started embracing these other identities and

Rosanne the reboot the reboot yeah the reboot of Rosanne may introduce a gender fluid character on it which is great yeah they're getting a lot of backlash for that too they are they are they are they are right i get back lash i guess to get the attention there's a lot of people who have their very strong opinions about things, which is fine. Film, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be as forward-moving in that. I mean, as far as-

That's why you're here. That's why we're here. Because as far as we can tell, as from all of our research, Elle will be one of the first films, if not the first film, to star a gender non-binary actor in a gender non-binary role. There have been other films that touch on this, but it's really, we haven't seen anybody

in the forefront of that role. And so L will hopefully be one of the first. Yes, people can check it out on your website. Yes, at elmovie.com. L themovie.com, like the letter, lmovie.com. Okay, congratulations on that. I've went and checked that out. And then also I wanted to ask Jacob and Donnie, so let's say in Max, of course, if people are like,

let's say people are living with, working with, have friends that are thinking like, I'm not sure, maybe they're gender fluid. I can't really tell. I don't really know how to approach it with them or talk about it because it can be like, I didn't even today. I'm like, how do I mess up? Are they, are they they, are they there? Am them or talk about it because it can be like, I didn't even today. I'm like, how do I mess up?

Are they there? Are they there? Am I going to mess up? Call you guys something wrong, which I already did. I'm like, your sister, I'm not sister. It's very confusing. And even I think I know a little bit more than most, how would you recommend that people kind of bring up these conversations when they're like, I don't even, because you'd

welcome it, I'm sure, right? You guys are all about educating and like, let me. Yeah. I mean, for me, like the number one rule is just like, be chill. Yeah. You know, I mean, and that's like over-symbol five, I can explain a little bit more about what that means.

But like, the hardest part, a lot of times, about like being gender nonconforming and especially being like, trans feminine in public, is just like managing other people's anxiety. Yeah, it's so true. I walk into a room and I can just like feel everyone and be like, oh God, is this okay? Is everything okay? It's fine, everybody. Everything's cool. I'm here. It's all going to be fine. You don't have to go scramble and change the whole

layout of the room all the sudden. I think that it's about having a chill and a real confidence that you care about this person. And so even if you like mess up, you don't have to be, it doesn't have to be like, if you use the wrong pronoun or something for a sec, it doesn't have to be like, oh god, I just like mortally offended you. It can be more like, oh sorry about that.

Which one do you use? Oh, okay, cool. And then just like work on it. I don't think of myself. Other people may think of me this way, but I don't think of myself as some like big scary non-binary, ogre walking into the room,

being like, if anyone messes up, I will destroy you, you know? I'm like, I just think it's like beach-o. Yeah, and the other thing I will say is like, if you've got questions, asking someone is great, but the even better thing is that there's this thing called Wikipedia, and like you can do some research before,

you know, it's like, I feel like making an accepting environment for someone, it's like being a good hotel concierge. You know, like you think of shit before other people, you do a little work in advance of like helping someone else feel welcome. You know, it's like, if I'm your client and you're trying to make me feel welcome,

like you're gonna wanna know a little bit about me, you're gonna wanna know a little bit about my, or if you're having me on your podcast, you're gonna read my bio before I come on, you know. You watch your videos. Yeah, and so it's like, you can do the same thing, like you can actually do a little bit about my, or if you're having me on your podcast, you're going to read my bio before I come on, you know. Watch your videos. Yeah, and so it's like you can do the same thing. You can actually do a little bit of like prep and like, you know, if you're confused about okay, well, what's this versus this versus this?

Like you don't have to necessarily ask the person right away. You can like do a little bit of reading and a little research so that you have a more informed conversation to have. And people will totally appreciate that because I can't tell you how many times people are very well-meaning, but I'll be like, like at a gala like drinking some wine and like a gorgeous floor length gown and I'm trying to like network and hustle and do my career thing and then I end up giving someone like a gender career 101 like at the you know Beverly Hills and I'm just like I want to be like eating a like you know my dinner not like giving a what like gender 101 here yeah

like I've literally made videos about it you You can just go watch that, you know. Where can people find your videos or we can also link to them on the site? Yeah, so I did a whole sort of like informative series for NBC News a year back called Queer 2.0. And there's a bunch of videos there that touch on all that kind of stuff. And then also, you know, if you just go to my website,

jagavetabaya.com, I have a whole bunch of different articles. Oh, perfect. That's a great place to start. Okay. You want to answer this as well, or Donnie, how you would like to be approached, and also want to know, what do you think is the biggest

misunderstanding that you will have? That was my next question, if you want to. Most of them I've gotten is like, so you are a girl or a boy, or what do you want to be? And I'm just like, I always go like, I am me, okay? Like calm down, I'm me. And I can get a I always go like I am me okay like calm down on me And I can get a little bit feisty sometimes because I've been I've been approached a little bit aggressively sometimes So and I have that middle eastern for my mother, you know

I'm very like I stand my ground. I'm very protective of myself But I'm also all about inviting you know what I mean very inviting so I get a lot of that But I'm always open. But it happens when I'm at a bar with my friends, we've talked about this in our gender talk for Elle. It's mostly like at parties. Oh, when it's like a lot of cisgender because I have a lot of cisgender friends. Usually it's bars. I get approached a lot and and that's when I'm like, okay, I kind of want to enjoy with my friends And then there's always one who's like, what are you? And I'm just like, okay, let's have a cigarette and that's when I'm like okay I kind of want to enjoy with my friends and then there's always one who's like what are you and I'm just like okay let's have a cigarette and let's talk then you know

but I actually just want to enjoy my time but then I'm like every day I'm always to someone I feel I always have to explain every day yeah yeah every day yeah and so many asked every day. Yeah. And so many asked every day. Now just ask but yeah most of the time ask yeah but also approaches in a yeah yeah you know what I mean right? I always like joke with my friends that I'm like oh yeah like when I like being famous is gonna be easy like when I get there you know like because they just want to take a picture with you but now it's like you got to talk. Also like also like everyone's like you know everyone's already staring at me you know so it's like you got to talk. And also like everyone's already staring at me. You know, so it's like people all go on the subway with friends who haven't walked around in public with me

before when I'm presenting really very feminine. And you know, like this is, I would say like the outfit I'm wearing now, it's like a cute little femme-ish of center blazer. And then like some lipstick and some eyeliner and some earrings necklace. Like this outfit I'd probably say is like a five out of 10 on the like getting stared at scale. But if I just wear a straight-up summer dress and I walk down the street, it's non-stop

eyeballs. If you cat calls, if you slurs, and my friends will be like, oh my gosh, how do you deal with that? And I'll be like, they were looking at me. Right, you just bought it. I just zoned it out. Once I'm in movies and get where I'm going in my career, I'll be like, oh, it's fine. It's whatever. People already stared at me at lunch. Now they're just staring at me because they buy my stuff. Right. Exactly. Yeah, they stare a lot and I'm beyond that point too, now where I'm just, I just zone out. Right. And I just don't care. Even though it's negative or positive.

I'm, you know, I just, because I mean, I'm wearing pretty like chill outfit, but I mean, I got my heels on. But it's fabulous. And it took me years. Let's see. Seven years of a hunt. Like, just those heels can like, you know, get, you know, just some energy, negative energy or whatever, but I've just learned to zone it out

and I just can't do it anymore, you know? I do, right, right. Because it took so many years to wear these heels. Right, you know? Exactly. Yeah. That's a great conversation. Right, you know? Exactly. Yeah. That's a great conversation.

We've said a lot here. I love it. E-mails. Okay, if you have a question you want me to answer on the show, that's amazing. There's two ways you can do it. You can text 7979-7979. One word, you're going to text Ask Emily. And then you're going to get a message back.

And it's going to have a link where you're going to be able to ask your question. Or you can go to sexwithemle.com via the Ask Emily tab and as always please include your gender, your age where you live and how you listen to the show. Dear Emily, I started to explore my gender fluidity just prior to getting serious with my now wife. I'm not sure I totally figured it out beforehand and my wife is aware of it. She's not on board with me exploring as she views it as cheating. Any recommendations on how to drive the conversation with her.

Thank you, Dan. I think just he's gender fluid and he got married and she kind of knows about it. And he wants to be able to explore, I guess, I guess, which is more like, I could see her seeing that as cheating. Like we signed up from an ogomy, you're my husband. If he feels that he's gender fluid, then he's not going to be able to probably just kind of cut that part, right? You guys can't just stop.

I think if you're in a monogamous relationship and you've committed to a monogamous relationship and you're within your partner and you're understood as monogamous, like it's fair for them to say, I don't want you like fucking other people. Even if there's a part of you that you feel you need to explore, like that's part of what comes with monogamy is like you kind you need to explore, that's part of what comes with the monogamy is, you kind of agree to explore all of the parts of yourself with the person you're with. And I mean, what that means for the relationship,

I don't exactly know, but I do feel like, if you committed to monogamy and you talked to your partner about maybe opening things up and they're not into that, gender fluid or not, that's something you have to your partner about maybe opening things up and they're not into that. Like gender fluid or not, like that's something you have to address as a couple. I would say it's tough. It's not even a gender fluid as to, it's more like the people who email me every day

saying I might have a three-summer or an open relationship, my partner's on a board. So there's a lot more going, you know, Dan and I'm here. I feel like you get a pass, like just because you're experimenting with your gender identity, doesn't mean you get to like break the rules of your relationship, like in a way that's non-consensual with your gender identity doesn't mean you get to like break the rules of your relationship. Right.

Like without, you know, in a non, like in a way that's non-consensual with your partner. Exactly. And I think that she might also be very confused right now if there's something that she just said that she was aware of it, but there's a lot of education that goes into it. So maybe I think therapy would be really useful finding a really good therapist that understands this that can kind of help your wife understand what you're going through in such as like a choice that it's truly who you are and finding ways to deal with it. So one of our other endorsers for the film is

Dara Hoffman Fox, who is a licensed gender therapist. And she is amazing. Oh, good, okay. Amazing. Where is she? Can people, can she like do Skype calls or? Yeah, I've Skype with Dara many times. Cool.

That's good, okay Dan, Dara Hoffman? Dara Hoffman Fox, yeah. Okay, Dara Hoffman Fox. Which Dara actually, I guess. That's good. Okay, Dan, Dara Hoffman. Dara Hoffman Fox, yeah. Okay, Dara Hoffman Fox. Which Dara actually, I guess now is a good time. Dara actually wrote this new book that Jess got released, I think, this week. Wow. It's called You and Your Gender Identity, A Guide to Discovery by Dara Hoffman Fox. And we all signed this, and this is for you.

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited. You can have that. Well, you guys are gonna leave with a bunch of sex toys. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, but Pro Quo. Like when we just finished this I showed a little flash that said I like thank you. I need this. No, so this I mean it may it may be able to I've skimmed through it. I haven't been able to get through the whole book just yet. But it's brand new hot off the ship the presses and it's a great. Yeah. Thank you Aside as well I think it's good that he talks to Therapist because maybe he's gender fluid also he probably he's meaning also that he wants to

Explore with himself like maybe he wants to wear dress, you know That you're right it might not just be sexually. Exactly, because he might be one attractive to maybe he wants to try with a male in a dress. You never know, like if he's mentioning gender fluid, I think he should talk to a therapist. Like you can say it. It's something between him and his wife.

They need to figure that out. Good points. Okay, another question. Dear Emily, as a male who identified as bisexual for many years, I get confused with all the terms out there describing people and their identity. Enough so at this point, I question it if I identify myself correctly. Normally, I don't like to label myself for anyone as we are who we are.

It's become difficult to meet and date people because they use labels and tend to want to play within their group, so to speak. So I'm perplexed. Do I keep on doing what I do, which is freely enjoying sex with males and females, enjoy playing the feminine side from time to time? I don't find myself attracted to men in a relationship sort of way only women. But I can easily be sexual with men. The more I look at it, the more confused I get.

I just don't know if I should jump on the label bandwagon and identify myself with one or more labels. Any advice would be great. Thank you, Jeff G. That's a whole lot going on there, Jeff G. Well Jeff first off call me. And you know, I think I think secondly labels like I think we have a lot of preoccupation with our labels and and I think we have a lot of preoccupation with our labels. And half of my heart is like, it's really important because I'm a writer. And so the words I used to describe myself feel so vital.

But I think the other, even that same half of my heart is kind of like, but the idea that we must only choose one word to describe our sexuality, must only choose one word to describe our gender identity. I mean, frankly, it feels like bullshit to me. I feel like if you're designing the Google form of life and you're putting in gender identity, it's like a long form, like 500 word minimum essay question. And I think the same thing is true of your sexuality and your sexual experience.

You know, I think that you don't have to necessarily find one word that sums up conveniently who you are to everyone, nor do you need to have one word in order to find partners that are great for you, because you can just suss out the energy in the room. I guess he's feeling just the pressure, right? Also, maybe it's not going to be easier once you find a term either. Like Carmen Carrera said in the new TV show, but the model says she's passing as a cisgender. And once you do that as a trans woman, there's a whole nother shit show. You know, and it's the same here. I think, I don't think

Jeff is going to. He's kind of caught up on the wrong problem. Yeah, like, yeah, he should be focusing more on like just enjoying and taking moment by moment. You don't have to just because you will have a term as a gender queer, whatever, it's not going to make it easier for you to make up your mind what you want. Like just relax and just meet, just have sex with energy. Right, right, right. He's part of the movie.

He's like, should I jump on the label bandwagon? I think we're saying no. Well, Jeff, there's a whole nother shit show. I feel like I've just seen it. I don't think he has to necessarily, but I also think that he also owes it to his partners to love, like to love or fuck or make love or whatever, whatever he's doing with them, without shame or stigma.

Right? I think that for me, sometimes when there are people who are having trouble with how to describe their identity, part of it is coming from a place that they have still some residual shame from growing up in a world that makes it difficult to be attracted to the same sex or difficult to be gender fluid or difficult to embrace your gender or sexuality. And my thing is, I'm like, you don't have to land on a label, Jeff. What you have to do is ensure that you're loving and fucking without shame

and empathetically and kindly and consensually and good. No one should feel like they have to leave your place through the back door or that they're like some small weird side thing. Unless, of course, that's what turns you on. Exactly, we don't touch. But I think the shame thing, I think people feel shame no matter what their gender, sexual identification, I feel receiving end of that shame. A people who are attracted to me, but then are a little bit ashamed of taking me out in public, or ashamed of admitting to their friends

that they're attracted to me. And that feels disastrous. I don't care what word you use to describe yourself, but if you're going to love me or fuck me, you need to love me or fuck me without shame. Like, oh, no. That's the only way it's high. Thank you.

That's very helpful. Okay. And it's like, how can everyone find you, everyone? Do we already talk about like, L the movie dot com? Yeah, L the movie dot com. All of our social media handles are at L the movie 2017. Okay. Yeah, well, well, first you can find me through, I'm signed with transgender talent and Thomas. Okay. So that's usually how they do it.

That's the best way. Okay. Or Instagram. Instagram. It's Danny David Bitch. Okay. Dandy. Yeah, I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, everything at Jacob Tobiah, T-O-B-I-A.

And also JacobTobiah.com. And I do a lot of public speaking. If you want to bring me to your campus, to your community, to your company, any of that stuff, you know, I do a lot of that already. I have a robust practice. So hit me up in jgobb.com has all the contact information you could want. I love it.

Well, thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm being so brave with your stories. And I think this has been really helpful for me. My audience, my listeners, so thank you. It's great. Thank you. It's been great. So fun. Okay's been great. It's so fun.

Okay, thank you to my amazing team. Thank you to Ken. Jamie, our interns, producer, Lark, Mikey, there on the sound. And thanks everyone for listening. Was it good for you? Email me. Feedback at sexwithfamily.com. you