Sex With Emily - How to Relationship Better w/ John Kim & Vanessa Bennett

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Dating as an adult is exhausting. While experience comes with age, actually applying that experience is easier said than done…even for professionals. With me today are two therapy professionals who also happen to be partners: John Kim and Vanessa Bennett. Their book “It’s Not Me, It’s You” offers an anecdotal road map of how to “relationship better,” from overcoming commitment issues, to fanning the sex flames, to breaking the blame cycle. John and Vanessa expertly dissect their own relationship to inspire us to create healthy bonds with the people we love. Listen to learn why “the one” is a myth, how to wean ourselves off codependency and how to replace obligatory sex with erotic collaboration.Show Notes:More John Kim: Instagram | Twitter | WebsiteMore Vanessa Bennett: Instagram | Website | PodcastPegging 101: How to try strap-on Sex Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't need a sex dungeon, but I do like a little keg. You know, in the beginning, you're exploring, it's hot and heavy. It's a honeymoon, and so I just pulled that card out. I was like, hey, can you, can you slap me? And she's like, no, well, you can, but I'm going to slap you back. And I was like, oh, it doesn't work that way. And I knew in that second that, okay, there's going to be a journey here. There's going to have to be exploration, compromise.

She's not into some of the things that I'm into. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Dating as an adult is exhausting. While experience comes with age, actually applying that experience is easier said than done, even for professionals. With me today are two therapy professionals who also happen to be partners. John Kim and Vanessa Bennett. Their book, It's Not Me It's You, offers an anecdotal roadmap of how to relationship

better, from overcoming commitment issues to fanning the sex flames, to breaking the blame cycle. John and Vanessa expertly dissect their own relationship to inspire us to create healthy bonds with the people we love. Listen to learn why the one is a myth, how to wean ourselves off codependency and how to replace obligatory sex with erotic collaboration. Intentions with Emily for each episode join me in setting an intention for the show. I do it and I encourage you to do the same. What do you want to get out of this episode?

What do you want to learn? Well, my intention is to help you identify what from your past maybe keeping you stuck in a cycle of unfilling relationships. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you go into the show. My new article, Pegging101, how to try strap on sex is up at sexwithemily.com. Check out my YouTube channel, social media and TikTok. It's all at sex with Emily for more sex tips and advice. You want to ask me questions? Believe me your questions or message me at sexwithemily.com slash ask Emily or call my hotline 559 talk sex or 559 825 5739.

Always include your name, your age, where you live and how you listen to the show. And it's told to call a change your name or choose to remain anonymous. All right, everyone, enjoy this episode. John Kim is the best-selling author of single on purpose. I used to be a miserable fuck and co-author of the book, It's Not Me, It's You. Creator both of the Catalyst Life Coaching course and blog-turned-podcasts the Angry Therapist. John's pioneering work in the field of self-help impacts millions

daily. Learn more at theangrytherapist.com. Vanessa Bennett is an author, holistic psychotherapist, clinical entrepreneur, and co-hosts of the podcast cheaper than therapy. In addition to a suite of online courses and in-person retreats, Vanessa offers therapy and coaching in private practice, helping clients discover sole-based growth and fulfillment. She's the co-author of the book It's Not Me It's You. Learn more at finesseabennet.com. Thank you for being here. Vanessa Bennett and Don Cam. Your new book, it's not me, it's you. Break the blame cycle relationship better. So congratulations on this book.

And so what I love is you're using your own relationship, kind of as a roadmap for couples to tackle their own issues in this book, which is really brave and really vulnerable. I think oftentimes where it's a therapist, people expect when you should have it all together, but you guys put it all out there, which I think is such a gift. And to roadmap a lot of us can use, but can you tell me about that? Yeah, and thank you for noticing that.

That was kind of our goal was the tone of the book being just as important as the content, meaning as therapists pulling the curtain back and letting people know that we're not to perfect. We have struggles. John Kim knows nothing about sex, by the way. So all questions will be toward Vanessa. Yeah, we're real people, you know, and we struggle with a lot of things. So just because we are therapist doesn't mean that we have our shit together. Yeah. Well, I think that's what you highlighted in this book is that you're never done. And I say this with sex too, is that it's not like you get

somewhere where sex and you're like, all right, I am the sex master. And I am done now, Chuck. Now I can go learn something else, just like relationships. You're consistently honing these skills and working together. Can you kind of open the book, talking about these misconceptions? I think you're explaining like how it's different, like dating your 30s and beyond.

Like can you talk about that process of finding each other and what that's been like? Yeah, I think one of the biggest misconceptions. So I will say first that the book, obviously, we wanted to talk about our own kind of shortcomings, like you said, but it was really rooted in as therapists who work with couples. We noticed that, you know, I always say

I got a count the number of chapters, but let's say the top 10 issues that our clients are struggling with are also the same issues that we're struggling with. And so it's one of those like, you're not that special. Like we're all in this together. You know? And so I mean, we might have more tools,

but we're struggling with the same thing. We thought that would be really helpful. But this idea of the one or happily ever after, we just felt like it was such an unhealthy belief that got so many couples into trouble, right? It's a societally passed down idea, right? It's the Disney movies, it's the, everything ends at the wedding.

Every romcom you've ever seen ends at the wedding, right? You never see five years into Cinderella and Prince Charming's wedding when she's screaming at him to pick up his socks for the hundredth time, right? Or that would she tell us in that I've been faking my orgasm since I've known you. That's not that right? Like why are we trained to believe that there's going to be this one person that's going to complete us that once we meet them, our whole lives are going to improve,

you know, nothing's going to be hard from here on out. We're going to have magical sex and orgasms, right? And it's just such bullshit number one, but also it's a thing to hide behind. So that when something does get hard, there's an escape hatch, right? There's an eject button that I can say, well, obviously this isn't right because if it were right, it wouldn't feel this way, right? You wouldn't be the one. You're not the one. Yeah, we believe the one is the one in front of you. The one in front of you. I love this because even people still say, well, relationships shouldn't take work, right? If it's meant to be, it

shouldn't take work. But I think you're showing here not only like, is it work, but here's how to do the work? Was that sort of the intention behind the book? And then where do we start? That's such a damaging sentence. And I've heard this as well. If the relationship is good, it should be easy in a shouldn't take work. And like, I mean, even, you know, you've been talking about intimacy in, in the bedroom, I think a lot of people feel like chemistry is laid and there's no work. And you know, if people aren't having the backstacks of their lives, then they should something is wrong. And that's not true.

Yeah. It takes learning each other. It takes understanding each other. It takes those conflicts, usually, actually to get to the other side and know each other better and understand each other better. So I think it's partly that too. It's like, can we get to the other side? know each other better, understand each other better. So I think it's partly that too. It's like, can we get to the other side? So interesting.

You said, seeing new conflicts, that you kind of went through the top questions you said or the 10 questions you get asked by couples realizing that you also struggle with those. Can we kind of start with some of those? Is there one that just comes to you? You're like, okay, like someone sits in your office like, yep, this is the issue. I mean, what is the one that we, where can we all start? Well, I think that the ones that probably people are the most familiar with because of the

Instagram pop psychology world, right? So different attachment styles is a big one that we see frequently in our practices and in our own life. Different love languages. There's this dance between this over functioner under functioner that we get into in the book, which is a big one. Yeah. The title of that chapter is always when the polls people in because it's, I'm not your mother, you're not my son. Yeah, I love it. Tell me about that. Which we all, well, a lot of us can relate to, right? Yeah, and it's interesting because as we go through these, Vanessa and I very different. So I'm agency attached. She's avoidantly attached. My love language is words of affirmation.

Heres is more active service. I'm the under-functioner and she's the over-functioner, right? So two different extremes because we've been working ourselves and there's a spectrum, but that's how we are. So how that shows up in relationships. So let's talk about the over-functioning. Yeah. So the over- and under-functioner is interesting because so much of this is based in codependency.

So much of this is based in codependency, so much of this is based in society, how women have been kind of wired and taught that it's our job to take care of everybody in our household, right? And in our lives, to the detriment of ourselves. And we don't want to generalize it. I mean, I do know women in heteronormative couples where the woman tends to be the under-functioner.

And you can also under-function and over overfunction in different areas of your relationship. So I might say that in like the doing air quotes, I overfunction, but sometimes in the vulnerability and the intimacy, I underfunction. I'm going to stop you there because I think that underfunction, overfunction is a new concept for many. Can we like, let's break it down. I mean, I know you do the book, but let's just, they're going to have to buy the book, but let's just start with high level here.

Right. So high level under functioning and over functioning are both a way that we deal with anxiety, right? So for an over functioner, when we get anxious, when we get activated, we deal with that anxiety or so that anxiety by functioning, by doing, by fixing, solving, swooping in, managing, right? All of these very like masculine kind of left-brain qualities for an underfunctioner and stuff. Mass-filming energy. Mass-filming energy, right? Energetics, right?

For the underfunctioner, it tends to be that in the relationship to anxiety, I pull back, I withdraw, I believe truly at my core that I'm actually not capable, and so I just won't, right? I won't put myself out there because I don't believe that I can. I'm not going to do it right. I'm not going to do it to your standard. And so I just won't do it. And so in a lot of ways, they obviously are very opposite. And you could see that as them going well together. But unfortunately, if it's not addressed and spoken about, there also can be a lot of resentment that comes

up a lot of, especially from the over functioner. The under functioner gets either made to feel like a child. So again, I won't genderize it, but they're made to feel like a child. And so there's a parental dynamic in the relationship, which is not sexy, right? A stare parallel talks a lot about that, right? How we are not wired to have sex with our offspring. And so the second parental dynamics come into play. And we don't have sex, right? Yeah, exactly.

So let's move into the fanning the flames, your chapter. I just got to read it for everyone. Because I was like, oh, yes, we're going to go there. So John says the book is a he said she said, which I love is that you guys tackle these really important issues in every chapter that I think anyone in a relationship is going to deal with. But then you get John's perspective and then Vanessa's, which are sometimes conflicting or complimentary

and you can kind of see yourselves in both of you, which I love. Jon says, when Vanessa and I first started to get intimate, I asked her if I could slap her while we were making out, about to have sex. She looked at me and very seriously said, if you slap me, I'm going to slap you back. In that moment, I knew we spoke very different languages in the bedroom. I like a little kink. She likes long massages. That's what I have. I could keep going. But yeah, tell me more about that. I want to start by saying I'm a New Yorker. So I'm very blunt and direct. I love it. I don't need a sex dungeon, but I do like a little kink. You know, in the beginning, you're exploring. It's hot and heavy, it's a honeymoon. And so I just pulled that card out. I was like, hey,

you can't slap you. And she's like, no, well, you can, but I'm going to slap you back. And I said, oh, it doesn't work that way. And I knew in that second that, okay, there's going to be a journey here. There's going to have to be exploration, compromise. She's not into some of the things that I'm into. Well, let me stop up you though. It's not necessarily that I'm not into the things that you're into. I think what it is is that I need to feel more emotional safety before I can,

well, actually it's one or the other. Either I can be like I was in my 20s and have one night stands that I kind of did some of that crazy or stuff, but I didn't care. Or now that I'm with somebody that I care about, I need to feel a little bit more emotionally safe before I can go there. So are you saying that now that you do feel safe? I can't. Is that so? That was my next question. So you're saying there's a chance. As long as I can slap you back, we're fine. Not how I'm for done. Emily, I don't want to be so. One of us has to

be the dominant one of us have it just as role. One of the masculine family to it. Someone has to lead in some as to follow. There's the polarities or the nothing's happened, right? If you're both laying there waiting to be slapped in a sense, someone has to lead a father to slap or a kiss or something. So maybe it's not that kind of kink, but what I think a lot of couples and what you talk about too is how you sort of found

different desire styles, right? You kind of like how you guys have figured out your desire and your arousal and how you get turned out. So however you, what has been the journey with that? Because it's very common, it's someone's like, my partner wants to choke me or my partner wants to stop dirty and I don't. I mean, it's one of the most common things that happened to sex and it's compromised a lot of talking. It's, you know, so maybe you could share more about that. I will say that desire types was really mind blowing for me when I found out about this concept. And this is a new discovery in the last year of this idea of spontaneous versus responsive desire.

I was floored and it normalized so much for me, right? So I'm sure you've talked about this before in your podcast, but knowing that most men, 75% of men rank as spontaneous and about 75% of women rank as responsive. And so I need to be turned on before I want to have sex. He can want to have sex before being turned on, right?

That in and of itself is a mind-blowing thing to understand about the two of us. So if I come home and John has cooked dinner and done the dishes, I'm so much more already prone to being like, oh, I'm feeling seen, I'm feeling taken care of, my love language is acts of service. I'm starting to get those wheels turning,

I'm more open to being sexual, right? He's not like that. Yeah, and it's a chicken or the egg because if I'm getting a lot of sex, I will definitely make dinner and watch the car and mothalon and do a lot of acts of service just because I'm now elevated. I feel loved and resigned.

Feeling connected. So it's like how do we create this, where it's feeding into each other instead of one person waiting for the other person to do it. And then it's just kind of a different happening. That is really tricky, but really just a matter of talking about it and like knowing yourself, I suppose, and being like, I realize now it's been a week or two and I'm kind of getting to get the sense of my body that we probably need more of a connection right now or it's

planning it. It's planning for sex. It's knowing that if we go this whole week without it, I know is how I'm going to feel on Sunday and and then Vanessa can say well This is I don't know if you're asking for advice now, but I would say that it's it's really about planning It's really about like we know what this week is going to look like or this next month How do we find time where it's going to feel good for both of us? And I think the concept of spontaneous and responsive which I think Emily Emily Nagaski, and her book, Come As You Are, really breaks us down so well for Rebuild.

And the thing is, it's not necessarily a new concept, but it's such a great concept because when people grasp it, they're like, oh, because I think so many vulva owners walk around feeling like something is wrong with them because when they're with their penis-owning partner walks into the room and they see us and they're so turned on and they're ready to go

and you see their erection, you're like, I'm not even there yet. Like I'm still finishing a text and taking care of the baby and they see us and they're so turned on and they're ready to go and you see their erection. You're like, I'm not even there yet. Like I'm still finishing a text and taking care of the baby and all these things and then you feel bad. Why are I just turned on like that? But it's in to learn that we respond to stimuli and some of the stimuli sounds like it might be cleaning the house or doing things, but there might be other things you could explore. Like what I've learned to be like, because I'm the same way.

Like if my partner just comes in and whatever and I'm not ready, like I need to have the house have to be clean. Even if I do it myself, I'm fine with that. We actually don't live together. So, but if it's cluttery and I still work open, no. I need to at least do a three to five minute breath work or a meditation. If it doesn't work, if he comes in at seven o'clock

and I be going for 15 hours or whatever, like I need the space. So if I don't have that divide between work and seeing him, then it doesn't work. I need to have showered. I need to have just, I need to have talked to him too. Like I don't typically, unless I haven't seen him for a while, go right into the sex. So if it's cold in his apartment when I get there's house, I'm shut down. I'm like cold no sex. I'm like, check, check. I'm like, turn on the heat because it's not it. Like I just, so I've had to learn what those things are and express them in the most loving

and not judgment the way I can. So now when I get there, I'm just keep throwing out things that's worked, I guess for me is that, which I haven't really talked about, but he's like, I turn the heat on, maybe like the fireplace is not, you know, because he's just trying to, all, because I try to point out like,

this is why I'm not turned on or this is, so I think that's what it is. And you're constantly figured out for both of you, because've decided that you're going to be each other sex partners like finding the environments different ways that you just know that you'll both be ready for it and when it'll work Emily listen the only thing I need Emily is permission permission that's all I'm permission what does that mean say more about that well it's have joking it was half jokingly, but it means that she's not doing it just for me. So there is, it's lined with a desire. It doesn't have to match my desire, but it doesn't, if it starts to feel like an obligation, then I don't want it. Well, this is something we've been talking about a lot more recently, right? And it's this idea, I think, you know, I'm pushing 40 and I think I've really started to, especially having a daughter now, I have a two and a half year old, and

it's really changed my relationship to my body and to owning my desire and agency. And I think, you know, John and I have talked about this almost at Nazim at this point where society doesn't give women permission to have agency, right? Like our body is not ours. Our desire is not ours, right? It's really more about the men, their desire, their ego, right? And so as I've gotten older and I've been taking a lot of this power back, which maybe even a little bit of an extreme way, we have talked about this

and struggled with this a lot, right? Like what does it mean for me to say, oh, and really own my know and just allow you to be upset with that and not feel like I have to fix it, right? And this is a lot of the codependency recovery work I talked so much about in the book as well as just my platform in general. And so this is the phase that we're in right now. And it's great because John is aligned in the like, well, I don't want it if you're just

doing it for me anyway, right? So at least we is aligned in the like, well, I don't want it if you're just doing it for me anyway. Right? So at least we're covered in the basis there. I was going to say that do you know what the, because to say the permission thing what I'm hearing is, and we don't have to get into all this now, and that's a, but do you know when you, and I get bodies changing and having a baby and all the things

in the hormones, there's a lot, but I guess the next set might be finding out when you are aroused. So then you could let John know like what does get you in the mood? What does turn you on? I was doing your checklist like I'm totally with you on so many of the things that you said, you know, I think for me again, it's because I am the doer, because I am, I tend to dip into more of the masculine, which the reality is, is that early motherhood is very masculine in its energy. It's hard for me to soften into the feminine and the sensual and the receptive energy. When I've got lists upon lists in my mind and I got a picker from school at this time,

does she ever lunch box and pull it? Right. So I was half joking about the dishes. It's not really about the dishes. It's more about when I feel that my partner is seeing me in that and is taking and owning some of that mental load without me having to ask for it or give instructions. That makes me feel like I'm partnered. It makes me feel seen. And in that feeling of being seen, I get turned on. It's helpful for me to know that to know that a runway is required and that's not a choice thing, but it's a wiring thing. So that helps me be more empathetic and understanding. And I take it less as a rejection or a first-door thing, but that's her wiring. But the arousal run was her kind of refer to her arousal runway, which I love that concept

too. Like, the runway. Like, what needs to happen for Vanessa? Okay, good. Tell us like you guys, we're always in it, right? She's a plane and I'm a helicopter. I need no runway. I just need air.

I feel like I see you guys so clearly. Well, we can go into this too, because you talk about chemistry. I've often said the person that you're the most attracted to, you're like, this is my person. Sometimes you just stop and like, maybe I should turn and walk away. Like when you have that chemistry and you call that lightning in the bottle,

sexual chemistry, like healthy kind of versus unhealthy chemistry. You want to talk about that? Like, how do we know? It feels so good, but you're saying it's not good. It's different for every individual. I don't think there's a blanket answer, but I know that I defined attraction as what we're saying now. You lock eyes across the room and the hair's in the back of your neck goes up. And then that's the one, you know, um, but I know that I defined attraction as what we're saying now. You lock eyes across

a room and the hair's in the back of your neck goes up and then that's the one, you know, and I think now that if it's that strong, it could actually be dysfunction because if you grew up in chaos or you grew up in addiction or if you grew up where there was just a lot of dysfunction, subconsciously, you may be tracing that and that is what you may be mistaking for chemistry because that feels exciting. And then when you find someone boring, safety feels boring to a lot of people. Yeah, especially in the beginning, you know?

And this is why I think a lot of people say, yeah, I keep dating the same person. Yeah, that's exactly it. We have to go back and do our work. And I think that's also a big part of your book that people are gonna get. And it's not me. It's you. It's really is all about you both come to this place later in life,

where you're doing the work. You've done the work, which is very different. We're still doing it, by the way. We're still doing it. There's no finish line. But like it's owning your shit, right? So many times couples will come in. I would say almost all of the time.

And it's immediately like fixed my partner, right? Like they're doing this wrong. This is why we're unhappy. Make it different, fix them, and so much of what we talk about as therapists and a couple is owning your part, like own your 100%. Which is hard to do. I was actually just thinking, God,

you guys should see couples together. It'd be so helpful. Like you could help people mirror. I don't know if you guys are thought to do that or maybe it'd be good for a podcast or something. We're thinking about doing a workshop. I think you guys would be fabulous, because you're so real and you're so in it.

But what I think is so interesting is that I hear from so many of my listeners all the time, every gender, there's always one partner who's like, let's go to therapy and one who's like, when hell freezes over. So what would you say to people who are on the fence about or don't want to do it, or also how would they convince their partner

to get into therapy, like how do people finally get to your room? It's kind of like with fitness where it's like, you can't force your person to work out. You can lead by example, you can show them what it's doing for you, right? So what you're getting out of it, your revelations. So I'm almost like, hey, we should do this together.

If your partner doesn't wanna do it, it's gonna be a waste of time. The person is just gonna be in their acting or not wanting to be there and it's a waste. Both people have to be on the same page. Both people have to want this. And I agree with you, like, if the person is not willing to go to therapy because of their own whatever, then they're not really contributing to building this relationship. Yeah, because you can't fix it yourself. You're only 50%. It's so hard to explain growth in the work to you who have never done it, right? It's like we're speaking another language and it's like if your car break

down you know you're going to go to the mechanic and you have a toothache you go to their dentist like problem related to be going therapy so that's why love having you guys on people can see it takes work but it can be preventative it is preventative. I love the idea I've had couples come to me before there are major issues and that is so refreshing because they come in saying, I'm committed to this and I want this to work. And I am very aware that relationships are hard and get harder with time, right?

I mean, certain things get harder with time. And so I want to head it off at the past. And that's been amazing as a therapist because we get to work with establishing healthy communication, establishing healthy, fighting patterns and things like this before it's gotten to the place because we get to work with establishing healthy communication, establishing healthy, you know, fighting patterns and things like this. Before it's gotten to the place where there's so much resentment that you almost can't get underneath it. I love that advice. I think that people should go,

like, it's never too soon to go to therapy. But let's talk about resentments for a minute, because I think you both have said this. I've heard you both say that I think it ticked talk. You did John too. It was like the number one thing that ruins relationships is resentments. Vanessa uses resentment as a measure of you got to do something you know and so if you're at the point where you're starting to get resentment you know it's almost too late you should be communicating. Yeah I resentment for me when I I teach a lot of groups and classes on codependency recovery and the way that I talk about it, especially

in the beginning of the work, is that resentment is a feeling that all of us know really well. Some people are better at knowing their emotions and others. Some people are better at being able to describe their emotions. But resentment is one that I would bet almost every human knows what it feels like, right? So if you are in touch with that, and you can say, ooh, I'm sensing it,

and it doesn't have to be overwhelming, but it can be just like the tiniest little whiff of resentment. Usually that means stop, pause, check in, something's not being spoken, that should be spoken. Some kind of conversation has to be had. A need is not getting met. You know, you're not setting a boundary,

whatever the thing is, it can be a really great flag, and it still comes up. It's like, I don't ever get resentment now. Of course, I do. It continues to be my flag and my way to check in on my part. Because I always talk about resentment as yours. It is yours to own. Nobody can make you feel or hold on to resentment. That's a choice that you make. Once you feel it, it's your responsibility to do something with it by speaking to it and attempting to course hold on to resentment. That's a choice that you make. Once you feel it, it's your responsibility to do something with it by speaking to it and attempting to course correct. After the break, we'll hear how John and Vanessa

work through resentment in their own relationship. You guys want to give an example of a resentment? Maybe you work through? Sure. I mean, well, I was didn't see it real quick with resentment that's lying with blame. And then when people are blaming, there's no ownership. And that's kind of how the plane goes down. See that again, that would do. That's a really good point that resentment is that you're really blaming someone.

And then when you're blaming someone, there's no ownership. And that's how the plane goes down. It crashes the relationship plane. That's true. Major. If there's no ownership, the plane goes down because people are now just pointing fingers, of course, right? So, um, and this is hard like to actually be resentful and then take ownership of that. That's so hard to do, you know, Yes. So an example of resentment with us. Yeah, that we've worked through. I mean, I tend to be the very code if I don't want in this relationship. I mean, it takes two to tango.

But so for me, resentment is, it's like a best friend. I mean, it's been there my whole life. So I am very familiar with it. I'm not good at communicating my needs. I'm not good at asking for help. I'm not good at setting boundaries, rocking the boat, all the things. And so it's a kind of constant blip blip blip where if I'm not saying to him, Hey, this thing that you said hurt my feelings, that's one that's really hard for me. So the rocking the boat is difficult. So for me, if something is said or done or not said or not

done, I can go without saying it, but I will shove it down and I will get resentful. And so there have been moments where it's been, you know, hey, I feel like I'm in this alone, you know, especially having a toddler. That's how they're that it's in this like mommy only face, right? Only wants mommy all of the time. It can be very overwhelming. I'm very touched out. I'm very kind of needed out, right? And when I feel like I'm not getting any kind of help, it's not that I'm telling him you're not being a good dad or you're not, you're doing this on purpose, right? I'm saying like I need your help. I need more engagement because I'm feeling resentful that it's all on me. And I have to communicate that.

On my side resentment, Vanessa could burn the house down. I would be an editor. There would be no resentment. But if I don't get sex, if I don't feel desired, if she's not flirting, I could sense myself being resentful, right? And I have to check that. And I have to be empathetic. And I have to not blame but be curious where she's at, why that's not happening instead of just saying,

because there's an entitlement to wanting sex, right? There's like, why are we having an X amount of days? Or this is how it was before, whatever. So before I jump to the resentment which becomes pebbles in your shoe, right? I have to try to understand, and this is in the book, try to understand before trying to be understood. And I think that changes everything.

So once you understand maybe why this sex isn't happening right now, it kind of helps you go with the resentment. And then Vanessa, what about for your example here, just to circle it out with the resentment, how do you, when you're feeling this kind of frustration, or just feeling like I want to be seen for all the stuff that's happening with it by daughter right now. And for your daughter, how do you soothe yourself in those moments?

Yeah, well, I think that's it. Right. I think John spoke to it and you just did as well. I think a lot of times with this stuff, the first step is saying, what about this is mine? Actually, like, is there any self-soothing that I can do first? Is it easier to point the finger than to say like, uh, actually, you know, he tried to help me earlier. And I said, don't worry about it. I got it because I thought I could do it better than he could. Okay. Well, I could probably. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly

what we're talking about, right? So break that that right it out. Like whatever people can do, right? Yeah. And so going through that process, getting really real with yourself, being brutally honest with yourself about what part you can own. And then what I like to do, and not just personally, but also work with my clients on, is this idea of you don't have to go to somebody with everything all figured out, laid out, pretty bow on the package, presenting it to them. I like to give the kind of push to people to go in with it messy and not all sorted out yet and actually ask your partner to more witness you

in the mess. So if that's the example, it might look like me going to John and saying, you know what, I'm feeling resentful and angry and I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm just saying that's my truth right now. And I would love if you could actually help me figure this out because I actually think I need support in deciphering what's going on, right? So I feel like I could use more support in this, but I also realize that like I caught you off earlier, right? And that, that's mine. And it's messy

and I'm rolling around in it. And this is how I feel. And there's something very vulnerable when you actually bring a quote unquote problem or issue to your partner that's not solved yet and ask for their help in solving it. Then coming to them with, here's the problem, here's the solution, here's my part, here's your part. No, that's a really beautiful way of explaining it because then you're not blaming them and you're just like, come with me on this ride.

Like, let's figure out what to do next. And it's a problem, it's a we problem. It's a we think, not a me and not a blaming thing. It's a really good example. You know, one thing that I fall into the trap of, and I think many men do. And part of it is locker rooms, part of it is pornography, part of it is patriarchy. And it's this idea that the sex is owed. Instead of it being a shared experience,

because we are together, she owes me sex, X amount of times a week, or because I'm not working or I'm doing something, then when I come home and I deserve it, right? It becomes a punch card. By the way, hearing him verbalize that, which is if I come home, I, and deserve, I'm, I deserve it, right? Like it's, um, it becomes a punch card. By the way, hearing him verbalize that, which is the, I usually talk about this, but to hear him say those words, I just got so hot. Oh my god.

I'm, uh, thanks. I'm so happy. This is your Rowser runway. Who knew well, sex with the only people would think that would be in a Rowser runway. That's awesome. See, I love this. But yeah, it's, um, and I, you know, I think, I think we all fall into the trap of that. And I, I think there is that part of me. And it, again, it's so hard to check this, right? Because it's

ingrained. It's wiring-inspecting. If you are excited or you are a hornier or you want sex, is there entitlement there? Or are you really presenting it as a shared experience? And if it's lined with entitlement, I think you have to check yourself. Because again, what's the experience going to be like, right? Because now if you are entitled to it, she may be doing it for you, right? And then now enter, pregnancy, pregnancy, but also fake orgasms and sex that is, yeah, hormonid advice. That's such a good point. So like, almost like talking about what you're saying is kind of the antidote to the entitlement is sort of the co-creation of it. Because I think that great sex is like an erotic collaboration.

You know, it's sort of like, how are we both getting our needs met? So Vanessa feels, whatever that was there, how she felt like, let's do that again when we're done. And then how do you play on that, right? And continue to talk. Because that's, I don't know, since I find myself not in the mood for sex and then I'll have a great conversation with my partner, we'll work something through. And to me, since I am such a, like, I need to talk in the connection, since I find myself not in a mood for sex and then I'll have a great conversation like partner will work something through and to me since I am such a like I need to talk in the connection then I'm like yeah, then I'm turned on.

And then with other kinds of touch I need you know we kind of start to figure out what that is for me. Like if you're coming in and everyone's different but it sounds like you guys are you know figuring it out even right here on the show. I love it. I thought you guys are you gonna send us an invoice? No, I love you guys. I want to ask, I want to see if you could help me answer a question from a listener because we get so many questions. I thought this would be really great when you guys said, help me with. Okay, this is from Gabby. She's 25 in Charleston, South Carolina.

Hey, Dr. Emily, my boyfriend and I have been together for nine months. In most aspects of the relationship, work extremely happy, fulfilled, and vulnerable with each other. We have very open communication and feel safe talking about things. We're having an issue that we seem to not be able to solve. We have very different love languages and this issue seems to cause some extra tension in our relationship. We're both stressed and looking for comfort. My love language is physical touch and when I'm stressed, I see comfort in hugs and kisses. His is quality time but that quality time involves some space when he's stressed.

He seeks space and time for himself when he's stressed out but all I want to do is comfort him. We seem to get into a pursuer, distance or cycle. Do you have any advice on how to handle this difference? We both have made it clear we love each other and want to be able to talk about this so we both can get what we need from the relationship and feel supported. I thought this would be great for you guys because I know you guys have kind of maneuvered some similar challenges in your relationship.

This is really relevant because John and I also very different attachment styles, very different love languages. What I will say about love languages is this. It's important and it's great that they know their own and their partners language, right? It's not always going to feel comfortable for you to speak to your partner in their language or respect maybe when they're asking if that language requires like space, for example, to respect that if that's what they're asking for. Very non-romantic, but

something I do. So, Johns is words and minus acts of service. Words are very hard for me to give. Not writing, not, but when I'm looking you in the eyes and I have to be vulnerable, it's really difficult for me. But I know it's really important for him. And so, I actually have a reminder in my phone to go off every couple of days that just says John words.

And it's a reminder to me to say, like, have I actually given him these affirmations that I know are so important for him? Because to me, him feeling loved is more important than me feeling uncomfortable around that topic, right? So I challenge myself to do it. And I'm sure I don't do it perfectly.

And I'm sure he's gotten it better somewhere else, those words, but it's my best that I can do, right? And I do my best to give him that. Emily, this notification thing hasn't gone off in months. I don't know. She's been snoozing it, huh? No. These are the reasons. Yeah.

Yeah, I think knowing how your partner prefers to give and receive love is foundational. If you don't know, there's going to be a lot of, oh, this person doesn't love me, but it's not that G or he doesn't love you. You guys don't speak the same language. And then that's where there's compromise, right? So it's relationships aren't about compromise of self, but of course, every relationship is about compromise, right? So knowing that active service is a big deal for her, yeah, I'll remind myself to do the dishes or pick up dinner or, you know, as she reminds her self, but it doesn't mean that that's all I'm gonna speak because I'm not gonna change who I am as well, right?

So there's an effort to stretch at the same time, learn and discover partner's love language, but also hold on to your own because, you know, that's truth. And I wanna quickly, without going in too much, I think quickly just to touch on what I'm sensing is a little bit of this like anxious avoided dance that they've got going on.

The person who are distanced. Yeah, it's not impossible for somebody who swings more anxious and somebody who swings more avoidant to work out. Actually, we're very, very drawn to each other for a reason, mostly because it does give us an opportunity to heal, right, and to do that work. It's a mirror. When you tend to be somebody who's more anxious, you need and desire reassurance.

I think it's okay for you to let your partner know. I respect your desire for space. When you feel like you need space, ask for it, and what I'm asking from you is to also just give me a little bit of reassurance that we're okay. You're okay, I'm okay, you just need this time. On the flip side of that,

if you're more of the avoidant who realizes I'm stressed out I need space, your obligation to that relationship is to be very clear about that and give a specific amount of time that you need. So I need 12 hours to myself in the morning, I'll come back to you. This might, again, it doesn't sound sexy,

but what I have found with the anxious is that if you give them a specific set time, it changes the way they think about it. Okay, I can do this for 24 hours. I can manage myself. I can try to be more self-suiting for 24 hours because that's what they told me they need. If it feels indefinite,

the anxious starts to feel a little untethered. And so these are two really simple things, I think, that you can ask for from your partner be they need. If it feels indefinite, the anxious starts to feel a little untethered. And so these are two really simple things, I think, that you can ask for from your partner and then give to your partner that can at least somewhat subtly sue that like distance or pursuer dance. But it sounds like they've got a really good established communication base, right? So they can probably do that. Those are really, really interesting examples. I just love that they're like actionable items. You can say like when you, when you start to disappear like that,

it makes you feel really unsafe. So if you could just let me know what's happening, I just need to understand it. Like I've had this in relationships where I like just need to know where I'm going to see you again. Like if it's open and I don't know, I'm going to see you like, is it a week from now? Is it a month? It's fine. Just tell me when. Or like, since it's that space that we don't know what to do with and then we go into spin, so to be able to put words around it, yeah, I think they're close. Vanessa, you specialize in codependency, right? And your chapter on codependency is fucked the giving tree.

I mean, it's kind of a buzzword now, and I think it's still really confusing to many, even I get confused by it sometimes and I understand it. How can you identify and correct or work with codependency? I don't think you've corrected. What is codependency? What is it? What is it? Right. You're right. It is a buzzword. And I think? What is it? What is it? Right.

You're right. It is a buzzword. And I think it's in this, again, this pop psychology. Everybody's a narcissist, suddenly. It's like everything everybody's doing is gaslighting, right? Like everyone's running around using these clinical terms. Exactly. But I actually think that I haven't heard any other psychologists or

therapists talk about it in the same way so far. But I'm actually in the camp of really believing we're all codependent. It is the society we're raised in. It is what we're taught to believe that love should look like and feel like. I lose myself and you, right? You're my better half. You complete me.

All of these very like, these are codependent ways of existing in relationship. Now, the way that I describe it is really this simple. If you're good, I'm good. If you're not good, I'm not good. That in itself is codependency. So my emotional state is based on somebody else's emotional state. My sense of worth, my sense of value, my sense of self is based outside of myself. Right? And so when you know that that is happening, you can stop yourself and say, And so when you know that that is happening, you can stop yourself and say, there's some codependent behaviors going on here, right? The goal is, first of all, it's a lifelong journey, especially when you're,

it's the air you breathe in the society you're raised. The goal is really to move more towards interdependence. So when we see ourselves in codependent relationships, it's kind of like you were talking about earlier, John, with this like, you owe me sex. It is very transactional. This is how we go into any relationship, not just love relationships, right? We are partnered and therefore you owe me again. You're my needs meeting machine. You owe me sex. You, you know, this is owed to me somehow. That is not

actually an interdependent relationship, which is two sovereign beings that come together and say, you're the cherry on my Sunday, right? But you don't complete me. I am already complete. You don't owe me anything because you're not mine to own, right? These are very radical, different ways of looking at you. Okay, so I'm going to go to one, what, back to the first thing you say, because I can

just hear people going, well, wait, I give my partners upset. Of course, I'm going to be impacted by it. So how do we, yes, and that's empathy. Okay. There's a big long with empathy. It's in to real your entire day, your entire life, your entire life. Right. When empathy gets tricky is when it starts to look like, I don't know where I end and

you begin. And what happens is with empathy, you can feel empathetic. And I know I sense my partner or like my child, especially as hurting. When it gets sticky or tricky is when I want to soothe you and make you feel better, because I don't like the fact that you're uncomfortable. It's actually not about them.

You're anxious that they're upset. And so you want to fix it to make yourself feel better. I used to think that if I go down, you go down with me. And that's love. I just think that was sexy. I think that was romantic. Right? What we do think in this culture, it wasn't just movies.

Maybe part of it is cultural being Korean. It's all about the family and there's no individual. We're about to collective. There's something about that. Look, you know, being on a team that's very like bigger than you It's very romantic But the flip side of that is what if you're with someone who's in a depression or who has some kind of personality disorder or something Or an addiction and then they you know without intention take you hostage

Yeah, and now you go down with them and it completely changes your life too, and that's not healthy. It's not healthy love It's hard to untangle because I love he said about like everyone's dating a narcissist who's gaslighting them in a co-dependent relationship Like you can just gather it's all confusing or there's so many out and we're all triggered We're triggered by the narcissists That are gaslighting us and our co-dependent relationship. We also all have narcissism This is uncomfortable for a lot of people to hear when I do my classes that are gaslating us in our co-dependent relationship. We also all have narcissism in us, right? This is uncomfortable for a lot of people to hear when I do my classes, but I will say to somebody, I'm going to give you a little trigger warning here, people.

The reason why co-dependence, people who struggle with co-dependency love narcissists, is because co-dependency and narcissism are two sides of the same coin. They are both other-oriented personality structures, so I find my sense of self outside of myself. Right? Narcissists like to control. And the motivation is different. So I'm not saying if you struggle with cut dependency,

you're a horrible person, right? And honestly, most narcissists aren't at their core horrible people either. That came from somewhere. That is caused by really severe trauma and wounding. Right? It's actually very sad. And I'm not talking about everybody has narcissism. I'm talking about somebody who's got true NPT, right? Narcissist personalities were, but they are two sides of the same coin. You have a similar personality structure. And so it makes sense that you're going to be drawn to each other because you're

seeking external validation, sense of self, sense of worth, right? Once you as a codependent start to work on that and recover from that and find that sense of self-capital S, internally, I bet you, you'll find, you don't have as many narcissists in your sphere. Now that said, a lot of times people who struggle with codependency have narcissistic family structures. So they have a family member who they themselves is narcissistic or has a struggle

with an addiction, a substance abuse addiction, right? Or themselves mental health issues. I'm not blaming, but I'm saying when a mom or a dad is deep in depression, they're very centered on themself because they have to be and it's hard for them to see their child. So that actually can be a narcissistic wounding,

cue codependency. I just wanna reinforce this again. So I could go on. No, I could too. This is why I'm like, it's so helpful just to kind of understand it more, but that thing of the other that the narcissism and codependent, which are also spectrums, I suppose, is about the other like so for the codependent, we need to feel better about ourselves by helping others.

That's how we get filled up, right? But a narcissist needs someone others to reflect back to them. How great they are or feel their narcissistic supply, if you will. So it's really about, we all need other people, but in different ways to help us function in our dysfunction. Pretty much. Yeah. And so the healing, right? I mean, I can't speak for the true narcissist because that healing is very difficult and or sometimes impossible, depending on where they are in the spectrum. But the healing for somebody struggling with codependency is really learning to stop self abandoning and really learning to stand in their power and start to develop that relationship

with their self capital. Can you talk about the capital S self? Yeah, talk about the capital S self capital S self in the simplest way would be it integrates all facets of yourself. So capital S self would be my ego, it would be my higher self, it would be my relational self, right? It is my true North, if you will. It's different than when I talk about yourself myself, oneself with a lower case S, which

can mean different things. Am I speaking from my ego? Am I speaking from again? Capital S is kind of like my ultimate goal in this life is to continue to expand upon and be integrated into my capital S. Find what that is. So like your whole self, your authentic self, your solid. I want to talk about the exercise. I was so excited. We're going to talk this in your book because we a lot of us get caught up on our X's. We can't move past it. We think

we made the mistake. We have, we have sex with our X. Why don't I dream about my X? And you have this really great exercise letter to our Xes. So can you tell me about that? Most people either don't talk to or hate their exes and I think that it's sad. If you shared a bed, there were good moments. We had, we don't go into things hoping that we're going to hurt each other. We go into it with good intentions. And so I said, let's try to let it to our X's. Let's start first. And so ours are different. But basically, for me, it was almost an apology letter and appreciating and thanking them for for the good stuff, even though the relationships did expire. Yeah, and there's no intention necessarily of like sending it.

You know, I've actually used this with clients. And it's not about actually sending to them. And really the purpose of it encompasses the purpose of our book, which is. Even though we put in the book, you shouldn't send your letter. We're making ours public, but you shouldn't send it. I don't think I have a funny feeling. My access are going to be there. Yeah. Yeah. It goes back to ownership, which is the entire crux of the book, right? The book, the letter is not, and I've done this with clients where they've, they've written it, they've come back and it's all like, you did this, you did that, like,

nope, we're rewriting this, like that was not the point of this, this exercise, right? Point of this exercise is to say, like, here's what I can own. Here's what my part in this was, you know, here's what I tried to do, and maybe didn't do well and what I failed at, what I could have done better at. I think it can be really helpful to say here's my part in this. And here's how that owning that part is actually going to change how I show up in my next or my current relationship. It's really powerful. It really is because it is when people, I guess the opposite of this, when people are like, oh, when you hear like, what happened with your ex or your last relationship, they're like, they still have all the resentment. They did this and they did that. Even if they cheated or did something horrible,

we all have part. We learn. We're in a relationship. You're in relation to someone. So I just think it's a great exercise for everyone to look at if you still have a lot of rage anger towards your ex. Like, and that's the thing.

You can have rage and anger, but like, to be clear, that's a red flag. If you meet somebody and they're like, they were crazy. They were this. They were that. And there is nothing that they can own. I would say that's a huge red flag,

because that person probably doesn't have great introspection skills, they don't have a lot of self-awareness, they can't really own their part. Good luck having a fight or an argument with that person at some point, which you will, in your relationship. I totally brought this up, because I think that is a huge red flag for me.

And I think I didn't, again, didn't know this, didn't know a lot of the stuff in my 20s, but I would just be like, oh yeah, of course, your ex was crazy, because everyone's ex is crazy. You know, but now I'm like, if someone says it, I'm like, I'm out. Like, such great tools in your book really is about ownership and learning.

I think we're gonna learn a lot in it. So thank you for writing this, being open and vulnerable and sharing it. I think you both. I'm gonna ask you as the five questions, we ask all of our guests. Quicky questions, okay. Biggest turn on. It's just a bit of a word.

Biggest turn on. Yeah. Oh, shit. Do I have to be honest? Biggest turn? Okay. Things slapped? No, not being slapped.

Slaping. Flap it. Oh yeah, right. Sorry. I remind. Waking up with what's the word? Filesha waking up with them initiating. Yes, it's coming my way from them, not from me asking.

I guess that's really hard when you have a two year old. You're bad, but I appreciate that that's a fantasy. Okay, Vanessa, your biggest turn on. Okay. Biggest turn on feeling seen like truly seen. Yeah, I knew my answer was going to sound shallow. biggest turn on feeling seen like truly seen. I knew my answer was gonna sound shout out. No, I love that you are so unabashedly you and real.

And what person doesn't want to wake up with a blowjob, right? Okay, biggest turn off. Somebody not able to take responsibility like a claim game. Oh, I would say defensiveness or what's the opposite of self-awareness, not being aware of self-being and your actions? Agreed. Uh, what makes good sex presence being in the here and now?

Oh, that's a good answer. What did you say about that too? No, you can't. I want to make it up. Yeah. We're two different people. You're your own person. Stop being caught up.

I'm going to say, Prasad, I'm going to go with that too. Okay. Okay. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Stop making it. Like make yourself happy, right? You can't make anybody else do anything they don't want to do. You can't convince somebody to love you. You can't prove your worth through doing and being for somebody else.

Like just prioritize yourself and the people who love you will surface and they will love you anyway. For me, it was it's a continually to redefine, right? So shedding old residue from society, from locker rooms, from pornography, whatever that you've learned the environments you've been in and always trying to redefine what good sex looks like for you. Hmm. Being open. All right. Here's our fifth question. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? Doesn't look anything like it does in the movies. I'm speaking as a woman here, but the number of sex scenes where the man just climbs on top of

her thrust twice and she's like, oh, it's like come on. Are we really still making movies like this? Because we are. It doesn't look anything like it doesn't. And also, it's okay to laugh. That's another one. It's okay to laugh and like kind of be silly sometimes when you're having sex. I took two. I would say the number one thing that people

should know about sex is that it's not dried cement. That it is a living breathing thing, that it is a dance, it's a constant, it's always expansive, right? So it's not a photograph or a poster. It's something created, it's energy, you know. So it's dynamic. It's formless. Hey, job, love it. Okay, so tell me, where can we find you? What should we know? John Kim Vanessa Bennett. I'm across the board at the English Airbus and social. I'm a little all over the place, but mostly Instagram and TikTok.

So Instagram, I'm at Vanessa S. Bennett. TikTok, I'm actually the Koda Yoda. And then, yeah, our book is wide. So September 6th, anywhere you would get books, Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble, all the way to the station. Congratulations. It's a really helpful tool, I think, for anyone who reads this. So thank you for doing it.

That's it for today's episode, See You On Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Sex with Emily. Oh, I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexwithemle.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating, or relationship, call my hotline 559 Talk Sex.

That's 559-825-5739. A go to sexwithemily.com slash Ask Emily. Special thanks to A Cast for powering the Sex with Emily podcast. Was it good for you? Email me feedback at sexwithemleaf.com.