Sex With Emily - Porn vs Reality

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

Today I bring you a special combination of guests, to give you a unique perspective on the porn industry. I talk to legendary porn star and sex educator Nina Hartley, sex addiction specialist Dr. Marnie Breecker and ethical porn director Erika Lust.Nina Hartley shares her insights on her decades long experience in the porn industry, her personal relationships and advice on figuring out what kind of relationships work for you. Then, Dr. Breecker and I take a deep dive into the complexities of sex addiction. Dr. Breecker is a therapist who specializes in sex addiction and she has advice for people who are struggling to break free.I also talk with erotic filmaker Erika Lust about her mission to create ethically minded films for all genders. Erika has been writing and directing for years so she’s full of insights about intimacy both onscreen and off.For more information about Nina Hartley, visit nina.comFor more information about Dr. Marnie Breecker, visit marniebreecker.comFor more information about Erika Lust, visit erikalust.comFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and on today's show, we're looking back at some of my popular guests, legendary porn star Nina Hartley, sex addiction expert, Marny Breaker, an erotic film director, screenwriter and producer, Erica Lust. All this and more, thanks for listening. What is that? That's like a bunch of women with a lot of hair around her and her arms.

And they put on the strap-ons, you know? And they like, this army ready to fuck the men. Well, that's a whole different issue. The reality is with sex addiction. It's a disease that occurs in secrecy. So when someone's looking at a lot of porn and they're keeping it from their partner, likely there is something to hide.

But are like cats. they must be coaxed and seduced every time. But no, when what is touching them is paying attention or being a jerk. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that block our secret institutions. Betrubized, they call them in a bag on days.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Avley and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. All right, you've probably heard me talking about celebrating 15 years of sex with Emily. Well, today we're going to continue the celebration with three of my popular guests from over the years. These were so great to listen to and I love that they're all together here in one episode because first, I talked to the legend porn star Nina Harley who's super open about her experience in the adult industry, she's thoughtful about her life outside of porn. I mean, so many of you want to know,

like, what are porn stars' life like outside of, you know, having sex for a living, and she's incredible. I love this conversation. Then I talked to Dr. Marney Breaker and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist and a sex addiction specialist. So we talk a lot about, you know, what's the difference between enjoying frequent sex and actual sex addiction? Because we can sort of

conflate sex addiction with porn. And while porn can be used as part of an addiction, you know, simply watching porn doesn't mean you're addicted. A lot of you call in, you're like, well, I watch porn every day. Am I an addict? Or I think my partner's addicted to porn. And, you know, since porn is so much more readily available right now, there's so many questions and so many theories.

So we're going to break it down today. That's why I'm giving you Dr. Breaker and Nina Harley, so we can see the difference in this episode. Then I talked to Erica Lust, and she's been on the show a few times. She's a Swedish erotic film director, screenwriter, producer, and she's essentially on a mission to create ethical porn.

What does that mean? We have to listen. We get into her philosophy and how it actually shapes the films that she creates. So, if you've been looking for porn that actually speaks to you and is hot for you, especially as a vulva owner, you're going to like what Erica has to say. I love visiting these conversations.

So, you're going to love all this. I have an amazing woman sitting here in the studio with me. Nina Hartley, hello. Hello. Thank you. Yeah, I love the clapping. Nina is, if you don't know, because everyone knows who Nina is. American pornographic actress, director, sex educator, feminist, author,

you've been in how many films? In about 900. 900 films. And you're still doing films. Absolutely. And everything, you're activists, you've done so many things. And I'm so in awe of your career

and all the amazing things you've done. And we're gonna talk about sex tonight. I mean, sex with Emily. I'm really, I'm so happy. I was feeling, I feel like I know how about that. Isn't it awesome? I know. And we're gonna get into this stuff.

All the things that you've ever wanted, asking, and I feel like so many of my listeners, they need tips, they need advice for keeping their relationships interesting and how to have a spice of sex life. And I love oral sex tips. I always ask my guests. And I feel like you would have really good oral

sex tips for women and for men. Tell me what you're up to now. So you work on needa.com, which is amazing. You have that URL. Right. Yeah. Needa.com is my, my, studyworkout, Nina.com, which is amazing, you have that URL. Right, Nina.com is my pay site, and it is triple X. I do need to, I've been doing this 32 years, since I started dancing in 30 years in porn,

and I am now old enough to have children in their 30s. I have been working pretty much energy into branching out just in terms of talking and teaching because I've been a feminist my whole life and so I remember the early days of the conversation about pornography and sex and sexuality and sexual expression from the seventies and now I have 40 years perspective on how is that working for you. Right exactly. So I'm the age of a lot of young people's parents, but I'm not a parent, so I'm not Ike. Right.

So I wanted to give back to the community. I want to talk to young adults about what I wish I had known about sex when I was their age. What is, so when you say young, you're talking about people in their 20s. I'm talking about, for me, 18 to 30. I could eat, I'm 54, I could easily have a 30-year-old child without it being weird. Two of my favorite playmates were born the year I graduated high school and they're 35.

It blows my mind, but I see them as peers because they're adult. What do you mean you're playmates, people that you play with have sex with? I am not a monogamous person and I'm also queer so I have a large circle of poly, bi, queer, non-monogamous, polymorphously perversed. Exactly. I live a sexually open lifestyle, and what people get confused about who are not this, why are these ways? They could use open with an archic, with like no rules at all.

And what it really is, it's a kind of sexual orientation that works best when you keep it within people of your like orientation. So people with whom I play, and for me play is almost always some kind of sexual intention. If not actual, genital contact, are people who share my sexual values, my sexual outlook, most of my overlaps, sexual philosophy enough that we can cohabit the same space and share some kind of mutual good time. And I don't try to do that with people whose sexual values and boundaries don't mesh with spine.

And the biggest thing I could tell anybody as a young adult is figure out what, and this time you can do alone while reading, you don't even have to do with anybody. It's just something inside yourself. What do I seem to be? I'm strongly pulled toward monogamy. I'm strongly pulled toward nomenogamy, but I feel guilty about it because of what I've been told. So I'm really monogamous and wanting a fantastical dream or I'm actually a nomenogamous person burdened with guilt. So we have to investigate. So

in order on. So my playmates and they're 35 and they born and they are graduated in high school. But yet the S out of dog. Exactly. Exactly. But I feel more wives than ever. I wouldn't go back and be 35 again if you paid me because at 35 I was entering the most unhappy period of my first marriage. Okay.

They were the craziest and most absolutely. So I've been unhappily married and happily married now. And I have, I have insights I can impart to people, you know, and also the whole thing about personal responsibility. Stop feeling like I said to victim. I'm sure you talk about that with people all the time. Yes. Feeling like a victim in their own life. You mean in their own. It's like it comes to sex, poor me, poor me, and you know, pull up your big, pull up your big, big person panties.

Right, exactly. And we're not talking about actually having been victimized, obviously, when I talk about violence. No, but we're talking about where, you know, what you're doing, you're crazy. Exactly. You're thinking about partners, you have this pattern that you act out again and again, you realize, and after the third time, it is you. Exactly.

What's the common denominator here? Oh, okay, it's me. I know. I fully blame myself for all of my mistakes now. Like I think it's so funny among my relationships. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is my pattern and people don't stop it. They don't stop looking themselves, but I think it's interesting. So you've been have you always known that you were non monogamous or when you were in school? Yeah. Okay. Well, if I had the words in high school, I would have recognized that I was As to quote read Mahalko a polybicelot. I love Reed.

I love Reed. You love Reed. Yeah, you love Reed about sex. And I never had a monocle with fantasy in my life. I always fantasized about them. I never fantasized about him. And I always felt strange about that. So when it comes to sex, I feel like Spock.

If you have friends who are very, very strongly gay, they'll tell you, oh, I knew from first grade. Oh, I knew since I was five years old. Oh, absolutely. And you know people like that. Yeah, absolutely. So my sexuality is as strong and in born in me as their gayness, but because I didn't have language for it, I didn't know that had to do with relational orientation. Right. Because language for, I didn't know that had to do with relational orientation. Because Polly is and monogamous as separate from gay or kinky or bisexual, it says, how do you want to run your romantic life? And I need a wide variety of people with whom I can be sexual. And I have a husband and people will say, Nina, why be married if you're not going to

be monogamous? And I say, well, my husband's my true partner. So all the sex I have is intentional. Right. We negotiate it. We are doing it deliberately. It's not because someone got drunk. So each time I whistle on that, the beautiful bead, maybe this is a carved ivory bead. This is a marano glass bead or this is a Hopi Indian bead. And I string all those beads on this rule relationship I have with my husband. And they, for me, that balances out.

Right. And is he also, is he, does he see other people as well? Nothing seriously. I'm, I'm Pauli Amherst, he's non-monogamous. Okay. But the orientations work well enough that we can make it work. My primary, when I got out of my first marriage, I knew that I would be single until I was dead

and have cats and lovers before I would ever consent again to be with a possessive partner. And there's enough for everyone, right? Right. As a polyperson, A is A. Nothing else can be A and nothing else can be, and you can't, they don't compete. Exactly. So it's as a, for example, another slender, accomplice, intelligent young brunette woman over here, who can rock the plaid pants, which I

no longer bother trying to wear. And if there's someone who on the surface of it looked a lot like you, I would not be confused because you're you. And she would be her. So you vibrate this string in the harmonic resonance way. And she can't pluck your string. Right. Exactly. You were jealous.

And they're possessive. And so I totally understand, do you think that there's a lot of people that would be non monogamous or polyamorous if they could, but they don't even think that's an option because they have to. And I was, I think, I'm suffering through monogamy. I think monogamy is an honest orientation. I think a solid 20% of people are truly monogamous. One partner is all they want, and they're devoted

to their whole lives. And it's not a burden. They are it. This is it. I met your mother when we were 15. I fell in love and never looked at another woman's sentence. I've met enough couples like that to note that for some

people is true. And then there is a 20% of the people like me who are fully acclimated to a functioning, healthy, non-monogamous relational style and have a good partner and are okay with that. And the other 60% are struggling with some balance of it. I think more people could be more open and fluid than are now if it were considered and a healthy option. Right now, you know, monogamy is the only thing that's healthy and normal and mature and respectful. I would never put it with my partner. You let him do

what? You let her do what? It's like not letting. Right. So clearly, I can't be with someone like you. And I tried that. I tried very hard. I fail at monogamy. I completely hate you. I was, I ended up being a cheater. I ended up being a liar. It was crazy. But it was why I want to strangle them. A people say, well, you know, I want other parts, but I don't want my partner to have anybody else. Inside the new are too immature for this. You don't get to have the cookie. Because this is a two way street. Now,

because in our culture, people get stunted emotionally at very young ages around sexuality and pleasure. And what do I get to have in the world? And then they grow up to be big people. And they interact with another adult person. And then a trigger gets pushed all of a sudden, they're again, a very young child. And they don't want to have to deal with their stuff. You have to do it first. Because I'm not going to it. It's like I thought I was dating a grown-up. Exactly. No, I understand. And Minagamy has never worked for me, really. And I love hearing you say this because I still think I try to get into relationships,

but I used to be a cheater. I'm a form cheater because I don't really commit now. And if I do, I'm like, okay, this is more open. But it's something that I never wanted from a young age. I've never wanted it. I never wanted it. And I kept thinking that. What's wrong with you for not wanting it?

I'm like, one day I'll want to get married. Well, one day I'll want to get,. Well, one day I'll want a kid. You know, it'll all happen. And it's so good, but no. I think it's not going to happen. No, I mean, I'm- I kept waiting- I kept waiting-

I kept waiting for the- So, want kids and it never- The joke now is that the factory there forgot to wind my biological fog. Exactly, that's what I always say. I mean, I don't have one. I don't have one. I love kids.

I love them. But let's go back to your child. So, you grew up in Berkeley, California, growing up in Berkeley then, what were your parents like? Were they? Well, my parents are totally alt. My father was a blacklisted radio personality. So I grew up after he'd been black.

He was a black people, and he was a black people and he was a black people McCarthy God. And my mother, they had had a pretty modern marriage and my mother was quite a bit of school to get her masters and she had a pretty modern marriage and my mother was quite a bit of school to get her masters and she had a job too. And so I grew up in a very avant-garde female red-winner male home keeper household 20 years before that was popular. So that was very difficult for everybody. I'm sure it must have been. So I was a youngest and so I had a lot of time to myself to pursue my own interest. My parents were all of the 60s deeply into therapy. I'll tell you everything. You got. And in 1969 they found Zen Buddhism and started studying

that seriously in 1973. My mother quit her job. It came full time students. And my mother is a senior priest at the Zen Center in San Francisco. Oh, she is still is. I'm so grateful because being 1969, it could have been asked. It could have been hard. I was going to ask you if it was asked. It could have been signed. Thank God. But that's what I was going to say to you. Thank God.

So yes, I was a lonely child. Yes, my parents feel very bad about that. But the positive thing out of all of that is that they show by their example that you can, their life has been upended by my process of black wisdom. And so they show me that a person can cast about and find the best way to make an honorable and meaningful life for yourself according to your own needs. And for a protoqueer kid who didn't know that word yet, it was very, very liberating because

part of what they also looked at was sexuality. And then there was a feminist movement where I got all the some of the source material because of these brand new ideas. And so there was before the anti-prenography feminist took over the whole branch of the whole wing of feminism with actually quite open discussion about sex workers' rights and women's bodies. It was just really great, very, so it was very empowering.

It's a thinking about it. But I was younger enough that I hadn't become an adult in that environment. So I was reading people's projections on the utopian way of being around sexuality, young enough that I grew into it. I was quite codependent for a number of years. And so in my secret mind, I wanted to be braver like Betty Dodson in my real life. I just couldn't quite break that pattern until I finally did it 40. It's like, oh, I'm holding myself back. It's always us holding ourselves up.

We're the only ones holding ourselves back. I know absolutely. That's just so you went to school. You graduated from Berkeley and then you became a nurse or you went to university school. I graduated from Berkeley High School, which all my friends went to Berkeley High School are the most interesting people the way they eat, the way they talk, the religious event. No, they're pretty cool people. I was in the theater department which was fabulous for me and I discovered pornography when I was 14 and was reading the books by the bedside. It's a cool 70s swinging couple that I they sat for regularly and they had a water bed. Oh, of course. It's like it's

fun to have 73, 72, 3 and 4. So the bed. And they was as if it was very, it's not into F-73, 72, three and four. So the height of it, I was so I found the joy of sex and the happy hooker, maybe want to be a prostitute that very day. And I still, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, wouldn't that be great? But it'd been a prostitute,

I think that's two times. Well, if you're a real legal business, you know, and you're educated. So I know some of the anti-prinography greed is what they don't like about porn is that it portrays women as horse by nature. Setting aside for the moment that the reason you watch porn is to watch people in sexual action is opposed to any other kind of movie.

I agree with them that not all women are horse by nature, but she says raising her hand somehow. Right, exactly. You know, some of us are suited for this job. So some of us are suited to be law enforcement So some of us are suited to be law enforcement. Some of us are suited to be lawyers. Some of us are suited to be accountants. And I'm suited to be a sexual intermediary.

How do you think that porn today is impacting like young people who are learning about sex? And what's the biggest? Well, I think that that's the only place for seeing sex, of certainly impacting them in a way that is going to make good sex that's much harder to get to. If we could counter porn with actual age appropriate comprehensive sex education that is safety and pleasure based. So before you're watching porn, you should be

watch all the porn you want. Consume all the media you want to consume. This is where women accuse me of being a secret conservative because I believe in personal responsibility. So I've had the life that I've had. I've had the experiences that I've had. I've consumed the media that I've had. I've had the media messages into me that I've had. Eventually when we're alone to get in a room, it's just you and me and how am I going to be? Am I going to be a dipshit ignorant lame ass cunt?

Or am I going to be a human who says, wow, you know what, I'm really uncomfortable now because this is new for me or wow, you're really beautiful or golly, I'm really scared. Or you know what, I really liked this idea back at the bar, but now that we hear, I really want to keep my clothes on. Or you know what, can we have some, you can never just do whatever it is, whatever it is. Because women think they get into a situation or I owe it to them or you bought me dinner or I'm too drunk and people just don't even get that. So, so the if you as a person think that a human partner is going to like what a movie

is doing, then you are not ready to have a partner in your bed with you. You have you are you are you need to back up and get acquainted with your own body and not talking talking guys. Here's what I tell women, don't bother getting another person bed with you're you need to back up and get acquainted with your own body and not talking guys. Here's my tell women, don't bother getting another person bed with you until you on your own can reliably give yourself to orgasm. Preferably a couple of ways, but it's only one way reliably know that I can do this. How do you anal folks, anal sex, huge right now? I mean, I feel like in the last 10 years, I don't even feel like you'll talk about like when I was in high school,

ever it didn't come out, up to know it, no guy ever like you've been ventured there. But now, and I do believe it's because of porn, that they think, oh, that that's what I'm, it's expected of me, men and women, right? Well, certainly. And again, there is what we feel porn is quote unquote telling us. And then what I'm telling, what I'm telling you is, is you don't learn to drive a car by watching Vin Diesel. We don't learn to drive a car by watching Vin Diesel. We don't learn about spy craft by watching double a seven. And we don't learn about actual sex of the human person by watching porn.

We make it a couple of cool ideas with a wrist flip or something. But in the end, ladies and gents, good sex is sex that pleases both people and makes them go, you know what? That was really great. I'd like to see you again. I feel good after it, not bad, not guilty, not shame, face, not apologetic, not sorry for it. Let's first talk about men and women. They've never had any sex. How would you first? Only people who should attempt anal pleasure are those who are sincerely interested in it for their own sake. So butts are like cats. They must be coaxed and seduced every time.

And they cannot lie. You cannot make your butt relax. You cannot make it one what it doesn't want. But no, when what is touching them is paying attention or being a jerk, including ourselves. So, if one wants to investigate anal sex, first one needs to invest in a high water, high natural fiber diet to make things all regular. Okay, if you have bowel issues or poop issues, that's not going to be the thing for you yet. Yeah, so first, I have to be an student for myself. Can't do it to please anybody. It has to be because it's pleasing to you. It's like, oh, hey, wait a minute.

Cool. So there's that. Then you read about it. So you have some actual information. If you're a female, just enter a Meadows book is excellent. And if you're a male, Jack Morin's book, anal pressure and health is excellent and just can't acquainted with it and understand.

So much of the resistance to anal pleasure is cultural. To get to the point where you can touch the outside of your anus in a pleasurable way while touching the front of you and putting those two sensations together, that's 80% of the battle. Don't go anywhere. There's more sex with Emily coming right up after this break. I have Marney Breaker here.

Marney founded the Center for Relational Healing. The website is L-A-C-R-H.com. Marney is a licensed worker. Marney is a licensed worker. Mar website is lacrh.com. More we're going to be giving that out again. And Marney's a licensed marriage and family therapist certified sex addiction therapist, the founder of the Center for Relational Healing in West Los Angeles, and she also specializes in healing relationships that are impacted by the trauma of sex addiction, infidelity, and betrayal. And I am so excited that you're here, Marney and I met at a dinner. Like we were just randomly at a dinner,

having a best dinner ever, like literally at a blast, and then they find out like what she does, and we were talking about what I did for living in, I'm like, you have to be on the show because first of all, she's genius. I mean, she started her own business and she says so much fun and blast. Like we're in no more friends,

gonna be like lifelong friends. But also I started thinking about the show. I really don't think in the 12 years I've been doing this that I've had sex addiction specialist, therapist on the show. But I did it was a long time ago and I feel like with everything going on right now, all these things happening with all these allegations

against a lot of powerful men in Hollywood who have been accused of sex addiction. but also the way porn's changed, how it's infiltrated our lives, it's how a lot of kids are learning about sex for the first time. So there's just a lot to unpack with you, Marnie. Marnie, you are the perfect person to be here and do it with me. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Hi.

Hi. Okay. So, Marnie, tell me, how did you get into sex addiction? There'll be training all that. I fell into sex addiction training. I was in graduate school and I needed to get a training ship in order to graduate, essentially needed like 600 hours. And so the only place that was really available to me at the time

was Delambo Hospital in Torrance, which was an inpatient psychiatric hospital. And so I worked there and at the very end, they put me on the sexual recovery program and the National Trauma Center. And I never would have wanted to work in sex addiction. It's not something I ever would have thought that I would do. You did like a history or a... No history, nothing personal in my life, thankfully. And when I was working on that unit I realized

there was a huge correlation between trauma and sex addiction and so I was able to really develop the empathy I think that you need in order to be able to work with that kind of population. I thought it was one and three have experienced sexual trauma, or is that right? But we're talking about, well, it's any trauma, but also we're talking about men experiencing trauma. Men, too, one and five or something. Yes.

So, can you define sex addiction? So the best way to make somebody who's not familiar with sex addiction understand it would be it's just like alcohol addiction or food addiction or drug addiction. So it's basically engaging in some kind of sexual behavior when you are acting in congruence with your own values and beliefs, when you're continuing the behavior

despite negative consequences in your life, when you are making repeated efforts to stop, you get caught and you say, I'm never doing this again, you find yourself doing the same thing the next day. And also needing more. So tolerance and withdrawal are like the two foundations of dependency on any drug or substance or behavior.

And so sex addict needs more and more and more to get the same. When people who say sex addiction doesn't really exist because there's no withdrawal symptoms, isn't that people? People do say that. And it's not the same as maybe what a drug addict would experience with like the shaking and really need to go to detox, but sex addicts actually do withdraw. And you might see a lot more like psychosomatic symptoms and a lot of anxiety, but you do see

shaking. Right. I never actually say right with something else, so you're kind of like, yeah, heart of it. I mean, it's really just trying to sue ourselves, right? Kind of mask a lot of, you know, emotions, because we don't really know how to deal with a lot of emotions. Would you say that a lot of emotions because we don't really know how to deal with a lot of emotions Would you say that a lot of it comes back to that? Whatever it is, however it manifests in the world. It's sort of

Yes, some maladaptive way of coping, right? Self-suiting, trying to regulate oneself, trying to ground themselves. Are there warning signs for sex addiction? Well, they're two very different things. So if we're talking about sex addiction You know, I actually wrote an article. I should send it to Emily. I gotta find it. But I wrote an article for single women about how to know what to look for. And when somebody becomes sexual or sexualized as a conversation really fast, that's actually a big red flag right off the bat. You know?

Really? Yeah, sexualizing something very quick is to be normal. You know what I mean? Not like just like, hey, we get a bone after dinner, but more like- I'll give you a promise example. That steak looks like what I wanted, I don't know. Well, yeah, that actually, I know what you were getting at, but yes, that could be an example, but it could be subtle.

Years ago, when I was dating, I was on that J-Date site, many years ago. And this guy and I were talking, we were chatting, it was kind of late. It was maybe 11, 11, 30 at night. And I send something to him him and he's like, can you call me? He wanted to get on the phone right away. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, but when I spoke to him on the phone,

I actually agreed to go on the phone with him. Okay. I probably shouldn't have met that, but I did. I got on the phone with him. And he disclosed to me in that conversation that he's a sex addict. So, and I had a weird feeling.

As soon as he wanted to get on the phone so quick, there's an urgency. There's an urgency. There's not a lot of boundaries. You can see that with sex addicts. They push your boundaries. They're not really respectful when you're saying no or you're setting limits. When somebody is constantly lying or keeping secrets, even hearing about something with a pretty significant trauma background,

not that all of them will become sex addicts or drug addicts, but it is something to be aware of and to see how did the trauma impact this person now as an adult? Can you describe some of the common sexual addiction behaviors that looks like when they're coming to you and they've been addicted to prostitutes or porn? Yeah, so I'd say the most common would be porn,

compulsive masturbation, prostitutes, escorts, massage parlors, strip clubs, those would be the biggest. Those are the top ones. It's really not even with the partners necessarily. With their own partners? No. Sex addiction, it's really not. Like their partners are separate from us.

We get so many questions, we're like, my partner watch is porn, is it a problem? How do we know if it's a problem? So I feel like a lot of times it's just also that women just have a hard time that my partner's looking at anything else that's getting them turned on and it's not me. Well, that's a whole different issue. The reality is with sex addiction. It's a disease that occurs in secrecy.

So when someone's looking at a lot of porn and they're keeping it from their partner, likely there is something to hide. We're not gonna get into a whole conversation about whether or not pornography is good or bad. Exactly. But when you're in a relationship with somebody, keeping a secret like that you have,

that you look at a lot of pornography and that you're masturbating into it, even to the point where you can't really perform in your own relationship, that's a problem. And so, I mean, to get back to the person's question about signs, I would say that when you're in a relationship or you're getting to know somebody who is incredibly secretive and they are not disclosing and they're not vulnerable, those are some big

signs. Not vulnerable about anything, right? Can connect, sex, sex, and intimacy disorder, that's what it is. It's not about sex. And that's a lot of your work at the Center for Relational Healing is intimacy disorders. Okay. Is addiction of physical and mental disorder and genetic? Addiction can definitely be genetic. I mean, you see it intergenerationaly within families.

So you will often see in my office, for instance, people that come in and there is a history of addiction. There is definitely a lot of research that does show like from a genetic standpoint it can be inherited. But also that can be you know you grow up with a parent who has an addiction and they have maladaptive way of coping. And you see that they don't have to regulate themselves sooth and as a child you kind of pick up on those things. And in terms of the attachment piece when you are young and you're either enmeshed by a parent and smothered or you're abandoned and neglected, that's going to impact how you can attach

as you get older. And it can often make somebody love addicted, it can make someone love avoidant, it can make someone sex addicted. I mean, there's so many things that can happen. It is, I would say, a physiological and an emotional disorder, for sure, because most people that have an actual addiction,

even though we talked earlier about that withdrawal, they are withdrawn when they're not getting it. And there, for them, it might be incredible anxiety, panic attacks, depression. So that's the physiological piece that I'm referring to. People get headaches and digestive issues, and my clients are in tremendous distress, and it's both physiological as well as emotional. Can somebody be addicted to love, Marney? Yeah, they call it love addiction, but really, it's more being as well as emotional. Can somebody be addicted to love, Marney? Yeah, they call it love addiction, but really it's more being addicted to a person

and to the attention and to the adoration and to the validation. And really when somebody doesn't have a sense of self themselves, like they can't really esteem themselves, then they're looking to others to esteem them. So when they're getting lots of attention from somebody and they feel really grain desirable, like they're on cloud nine and they're happy. And then if they lose that, or the person that they're interested in is not returning that interest or they're rejecting them, they could fit. This is a person that literally can become so depressed that they become suicidal. Like we see a lot of love addiction in inpatient and intensive

outpatient settings. When is sex addiction different than just cheating in a marriage? The reality is that one of the reasons that I think sex addiction loses some credibility is that oftentimes when somebody gets caught cheating or engaging in some kind of egregious behavior, sexually, sex addiction gets blamed or it's often thrown out as the reason behind it.

And the truth is that just because someone cheats does not make them a sex addict by any means. In fact, two different people can be engaging in the same sexual behaviors and even look like they're both addicts. And one is not an addict at all, meaning that they are making a conscious choice to do it. They're not feeling guilt and shame after the behavior.

They're not saying, I'm never gonna do this again. They're not acting against their own value system. Whereas an addict truly is not, they might love their partner, they might believe in every bit of their core that cheating and training the person they love the most is actually totally wrong and horrible and crushing and they can't stop the behavior.

They need to get that hit, just like a drug addict needs to get that hit. But for most people in fidelity, or people come into one of your programs, which I love that you have actually recovery programs for people who've going through trauma or through cheating through infidelity, would you say that a lot of people in fidelity

are sex addicts? It just seems like from what I hear most, it's more like they wanted love, attention from someone else. It wasn't so much of a sex addiction. I do think that the reality is that people make conscious choices to cheat. When they feel like they're not getting their needs met in a relationship, when kids come

into the picture and a mother of parent, like a partner is not so much available to their husband anymore to be there all the time, that often actually engages somebody in distancing themselves and starting affairs, getting it elsewhere, but that's not addiction. It's a choice and it's a terrible choice. We see a lot of disconnect in our society and today and instead of couples coming together when things are tough or when they're struggling, they're moving further and further apart and people make that choice. What kind of help can people get if they're seeing some signs of sex addiction in their relationship?

There are so many treatment centers available now and places that specialize in betrayal trauma and sex addiction and infidelity. My center here in Los Angeles, the center for relational healing. There are so many treatment centers available now and places that specialize in betrayal trauma and sex addiction and infidelity. My center here in Los Angeles, the center for relational healing. Center for relational healing, Marnie's in LA, it's amazing you should go there. Check it out. If you not, if you've had trauma not just to hang out and say hi, though, she's lovely. Well, thank you. I will say that I have a phenomenal staff and I take such incredible pride in the work that we do, but we're not the only people obviously that do this work. There are certified sex addiction therapists around the country as well as abroad.

And there are partner specialists. I'm actually a certified clinical partner specialist as well. And there's an organization that trains therapists to be able to work with the treated or be trade partner. It's actually pretty easy to find help if you get online and you do a Google search. And then the type of treatment you get online and you do a Google search. And then the type of treatment you get really depends on the acuity of what's involved. If you've got a full-blown sex addiction case, sometimes outpatient therapy once a week is not going to be enough.

Group therapy is important. 12-step program, sometimes intensive outpatient therapy. It just really depends on what you're looking at. Okay, well I'm curious about the programs that you have. Because you have groups for couples who are dealing with, like, you have intimacy coaching and healing workshops for couples specifically dealing with infidelity, which I just find, I didn't really know that that existed, and I feel like the reason why I thought this would be so relevant, I get so many, I mean, for everybody knows somebody who's cheated, they've been cheated on, and

we hear from people all the time who say, well, it's been a year, and Iave him or I let it go and you can't rebuild trust on your own. You always need to get help for that because it's not going to come back. Can you define the difference between being a sex addict and a sex pervert and they probably mean sex offender I'm thinking or the sexual deviant? I guess it would depend on how we're defining pervert because somebody who is, for instance, a lawyer who is looking at people like peeping in type people's windows, things like that, or someone who's engaging in fraud orism, which is touching another person without their permission.

You see that in crowded rooms or on the subway where someone's rubbing up against you and it can sort of be under the guise of, oh, it's just crowded in here, but it's an intentional conscious thing to do. That's perverted and that definitely would fall into the category of sex offending. Sex addiction, there could be people that have fetishes that are sex addicts, but I certainly wouldn't pathologize that and say that anybody's fetish is necessarily perverted. I do think that they're pretty drastically different things. Thank you, Marney.

This is amazing. So now we're going to go into some emails. Hi, Emily. I think I'm a sex addict, but I can't afford a therapist. I don't want my wife to know about this. Are there bibliotherapy resources or other resources I can access to treat my sex addiction? What steps can I begin to take on my own? Thank you, Lee, 48 Toronto. Lee, I'm so glad that you reached out and there are resources. If you don't have the financial means to go and see a specialist, my first suggestion would be get to a 12-step meeting immediately. SA, go online to SA or essay.org.

They are all over. There's phone meetings and computer meetings and lots of meetings in person and you will connect with a lot of other people in a confidential environment and get a tremendous amount of support, work the steps. There's also tons of books out there that you can read. I will say that while I understand not wanting to tell your wife at some point, it is the secrecy that's gonna keep you

from being able to connect to your wife and from really healing. So eventually I would consider letting her in and sharing with her. Thank you, that is a great point. And did you say S-L-A-A, like sex and love at exonationality? S-L-A is another one.

Okay, so you were saying S-A-A. Yes. Okay. So I think that that's just the key here. We think that these secrets, you know, like they say in childhood, you're just sick as your secrets, that the more we reveal to others, we think that that's going to be the most devastating thing, but that's actually what heals us.

So all these secrets and things that we can't deal with, just with addiction. Yeah. We see a lot of people recovering finally after doing the disclosure, that more and able to before they did disclosure because they finally actually come clean and said everything they were so terrified of saying and they held on for years. And then suddenly they're no longer walking around in shame.

Exactly. That's like the end though to shame, right? It's kind of real, right. They're looking at their partner saying, you know everything that I've done, you've known every awful thing now that I have done and you still love me and you're here. Like, oh, okay, you know? Right, because we all kind of a lot of us have a base, many of us have a fear of abandonment,

and then we do, if we have to pile onto an addiction that we're so ashamed of, like, it's just like this quagmire. But if you do reveal everything to your partner, and they're still there, it's like, wow. You love me, I'm not so bad. You love me, right? I don't have any more secrets, it's amazing. All right, more sex with Emily after this break,

and thank you everybody for supporting our sponsors who help keep this show free. Okay, I'm talking to Erica Lust and Erica Lust is an extraordinary woman who started changing the way we all see porn. She's making female friendly porn. But that doesn't even work. I feel like that does disservice because I want everybody to watch her porn. So ethically consumed, ethically created. Yeah, all is okay. But then also I've been through so many different kind of words. So I say that I've been trying to use during years, you know,

I also kind of started out saying porn for women because I felt that we were as women were left outside the mainstream porn. So I kind of started that way. And then I got more into the say of feminist porn because it felt like, no, but I'm a feminist and it's really about women behind a camera and how we participate in this, and how we represent

women. And then it got more and more popular to talk about alt porn, alternative porn, indie porn, vanguard porn, artistic porn, ethical porn that is starting to become... But I think all of these, they are really expressions of, you know, people's needs to find a new way of defining porn, because we have been so used to the tubes online, and nowadays it's like, that's what we 1000 types of different porn that's altered. And I guess the best way of collecting all would be under some kind of indi-adult porn label. Indi-adult ethical. I just feel like when you start putting things like female or ethical people,

I don't want to watch that. Like porn, that would be like ethical. And with a feminist porn, the funny thing is that when you say that to people, they go like, what is that? That's like a bunch of women with a lot of hair, and hair and hair and hair and hair and hair and hair and hair. And so they put on the strap on, you know, and they're like, this army ready to fuck the men.

And you're going like, no, that's not it. Oh, the feminist porn. I can tell you what it is. Super sexy, a hot porn that I could have thought of the kind of porn. I wanted to see before I saw your porn. It is the exact porn that I would make, that I would want to watch, and I even sent one to this guy that I guess I come up.

So this is a hard time, he's my boyfriend. I'm really not right. So, and he was like, yes, I love a rata-sized porn. I'd be so into watching this with you because I just got your site, which is amazing. So let's back up and talk about why your porn is different. It's cinematic. It's so just beautifully shot.

There's stories, but it's just, it's real. And the women are portrayed as very authentic. Human beings. North-ass, you know, blow up those. And men are not portrayed as this kind of penetrative sex machines going on aggressive there to punish and destroy all women on this planet. That is one of the things that I feel many times with mainstream porn, especially when I, you know, sometimes go to the tube sites and I start, you know, navigating around.

And I get pissed off when I see the kind of language that they are using. It's so sexist, so racist. Many times even homophobic. It's like dividing people into these fetishized little groups. And so what do we do? Is it kind of like if you can't fight porn

and make good porn? I feel like that's what you're doing. And part of me is like, I really am watching your stuff and thinking about it, I think I want to leave and go off and make one of your films. Because we don't want to direct something. Yes, just like everybody needs to in a way, because what you're saying is, we're trying to fight this huge machine, I guess, of who are the men that are making all this porn? That's a very good question.

Yeah, it's a very good question. And I think it's interesting and interesting point point of view because most of these men, because obviously it's an industry driven by men and sometimes you know people they say no poor deporned industries are their feminist industry because women are more money than men because they think about like five names of very famous porn stars that earns a lot of money but then be realistic who earns the money in this business. I mean, it's their companies, it's the producers, it's the distributors really. And if you think about the people making porn, then you realize that it's, they are quite similar, even if they live in Budapest or Barcelona or Los Angeles or Buenos Aires or whatever, but it's the same kind of man,

you know, a man that's interested in boobs and eyes and his drinks and his cars and getting into the VIP room with a big bottle of, you few, let's say film directors, artists, people with visions and ideas. So my question is, is it like the tale is wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail? In the sense of, if more people were able to see the porn that you made, and that was the porn that was out there, do you think that would change the way men and women like learned about sex? Because we know that that's how people are unfortunately

learning about sex right now. I hope so. I hope it would change their mind, not that I hope that they would learn from what is out there. But do you know what I'm saying? Like I'm wondering if that's why like all I know in the 13 years I've been doing this, like no one ever asked me about anal before or squirting

or meant, like just the things that came up But that I know is directly related to porn and we know that's how they're learning. It is very influential as a Jonner point is becoming very influential They are talking about so high number as a third of all the internet traffic during you know some hours Of today not always maybe maybe of the night, but depends on where you live, you know. But a third part of all the internet traffic, there's huge numbers. And obviously, I mean, I know that you are into sex education. I think

sex education is the best answer we have at this moment. We need to start sex educate the masses, all people out there. Schools need to take in great sex educators and to help them explain the world to people growing up because sex matters to them. Sex is one of the things that matters most to them. Exactly. You grew up in Sweden. Yes. So you had the sex education that's hailed around the world as the best sex education. Right? So you learned it. It wasn't just like one class for an hour.

It was like an ongoing discussion. On going conversation since I was a little kid until a grown-up adult. Totally. We talk about sex as something quite natural. First, it starts with, you know, the body, learning about our bodies, different body parts, how they serve us and how we get pleasure out of them. You know, I talk a lot of times to people about the learning curve when it comes to sex. You know, little boys are starting to touch, and little girls are starting to touch themselves.

And what happens so many times is, when boys does it, people kind of laugh, and it's like, cute, like his, he's touching his little dickie. That's normal because he's a little boy, right? So he's trying out his masculinity. But when girls does it, they get this kind of, don't do that. And many times from the people most close to them, they get this kind of, don't do that.

And many times from the people most close to them, their mothers. You know? That's their first message they get about. The vagina is, no, it's private. Don't do it. It's dirty. It's wrong. And no one tells them, okay, now's the time to go at pleasure.

They were just shut down at four or five when they were masturbating in the kitchen and told to go to their room. So that's right. How do you imagine how it would change if their mothers would tell them, I know that that feels great, but maybe you should do it in your room instead of in the kitchen or in the living room. Exactly. But encourage not to notch at them down.

Exactly. And then whenever it lifts them back up again, and then the next thing they see is porn. And then they're having sex with some guy, making some weird noises that it wasn't even coming from them or originating, because they thought that's how they had to act. Exactly.

But also that poor guy growing up, you know, nobody talks to him about sex and he has a huge sex drive and then he's been watching 100 of ours. 100. Born online and suddenly he has an opportunity with a girl and he's getting in there and he thinks that he has to behave as a porn star literally. Because that's what he's seen.

So he goes for choking her. And she gets crazy and screams. So say like, hey, what are you doing? Why are you choking her? Totally miscommunication. And much of that is not... I wouldn't say that it's because of porn, but I would say it's because nobody tells them

that the porn day or watching is an exaggerated fiction of sex, but it's not the same thing as having sex, right? Sex takes a lot of time, it takes time to get to know your own body, but not a person's body, how you connect together. That's hours and hours and hours of work in trying and, you know, figuring it out. And porn is like, bam, bam, bam, four minutes. And then she screams.

And it was only like penetrative, vaginal sex. And that is nothing like for you. And the most women I know, they need some tutorials to manage. Yes, come, right? Exactly. And we're not getting that at all.

And then I think it's a disservice because perpetuating what more and more men and having sex growing up thinking, yeah, they don't understand the clitoral symptoms. So let's talk about the porn that you're making, though. It focuses more on the emotional connection with sex and so much as much, I mean, of course, it's physical, but how do you even explain it?

Like, it's just, like, yeah, that's what I want. I want you to, I guess it's the plot, but it's a story. I mean, it's also a situation where romantic romantic romantic, we're kissing for a while, like you're touching my face, and then you could get into whatever. But it's kind of, I used to say that it's all of it. I mean, the difference is really,

if you compare it to mainstream porn, then it would be like comparing fast food restaurant to a little family restaurant, you know. The whole treatment is different. It's different, you know, when I go to the market and I buy my ingredients and I think about what do I want to make and how do I want to set up the table and, you know, all of those small details.

And that's how I work. It's not only me I work with a kind of big crew. We are around 15 people behind the camera. 15 or 15. Yeah. Most of us women, because it's something that I'm really pushing for. I think we need to have more women behind the camera,

more women on set. What could we do? I've just trying to think if there's some kind of educational porn for younger girls. Yes, but it's always difficult because obviously I am not allowed to promote porn for people under 18. I don't know, maybe here in America, it's even 21. Right.

And there we have this problem again that you can drive a car when you're like 16 and you can go to the army when you're 18 and you can drink alcohol here I think 21. But in Europe you can do it at 18. Yeah I know, much more people views towards sex. So my question also is women behind the cameras, what about the female talent that you work with? How would you say that that is different?

It's different for women and it's different for men also because we so because we are all human. For men and for women, how is it different? And I do work with people who work also in the mainstream porn industry. And I guess what is very different is the whole process because when I make a movie, it's more like any indie movie, you know, it's the same kind of ambient and the same kind of of set. And then what I hear a lot from my female stars is that they feel very secure, at my set, because they are surrounded by so many other women, you know, because that is something that they feel a lot in the mainstream porn industry is managed by men. So most of the time they go to a set and there's only men around them if they're

lock it or make a bar. Right. It's like so. And in my set, they have this kind of sisterhood feeling going on. They know that me and my crew that we will look after them, that we will see if something is not right and then we will act on it. And that I think is very comfortable and feels great. But it's all about really the ethical production process. And that should be a standard, whether we are talking feminist porn, indie porn or mainstream porn,

it should be a standard in any business out there, even if you're making buildings or, you're speaking ethical, or whatever. You should be an ethical person, but ethical values. building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, weeks before the shooting, they can give me feedback on that. I asked them with whom would they like to perform to make sure that they are together with a partner that they trust and that they are tracked, right?

Right. Because that's like the whole difference when there's good chemistry between people. And most people who work in the porn industry, they have favorite co-workers, people that they really like to work together with. Then we talk about all the details. We do the STI testing. Obviously, before the shooting, actors always have the right to look at the other person's paper work. So they know that everybody is in the best conditions.

We talk about condom use. Is that something they want to use or not? We talk about lubricants. Are they allergic to anything? What leaves you on and stuff? Right. No, it's not. I'm sorry, I'm full.

Then we talk about their boundaries and their limits. Is there something that they don't want to do? Is something that they don't like? Is there something they like particularly? This is what every couple should do, by the way way before they get together. Like, or at least on the first or second date. It's an obvious, the same thing. I know it's so obvious. Should be easy to have this kind of conversations with people about sex because that is when sex works, when you can trust that everything has been taken care of. And then, of course,

I always tell my performers that if they feel uncomfortable during a shooting, they can always cut. You know, they can always tell me, I need a break, I need to get a bathroom, I need water, I need a shower. Of course. You know, these standard kind of things,

and they know that I will never push their boundaries. I will never say to them, what do you think about now if we could do a little more? Maybe if we have agreed on doing vaginal sex, I would never ask them to do anal sex, for example. That is a totally no-go. I would never tell them, there's a third person that I'm thinking would be interested

if they were turned on. So what? Yeah, it's like about this kind of things they do happen sometimes. I mean, the actresses and the performers, they are telling me about this kind of stories. I also have a lot of male performers telling me that sometimes they are in trouble because they are having trouble to to maintain their erections. So what do you do with that? Yeah. Well, what I do is that I give them time, you know, I give them time and security.

So hopefully that won't happen. But sometimes when they are, you know, regular shootings, they get very pressured. And then many of them take the kind of Viagra drugs they need to make it happen. And if they can't do it, sometimes I heard stories about producers who want pain, who say, like, if you can't do it, then, you know, I'm not gonna. And that is definitely not a non-effical behavior.

I get that. But you're realistic, poor too. So what if the guy loses his erection? Would you keep that in the film while she gets me hard to get? I could, I could, I could, I could, I would let staff and make a sandwich where you get hard to get it on. I could definitely do that because I don't see it really as a problem. It's real, it could happen, it depends always on the film that you are doing and what you want to communicate. I mean, I did shoot for example a three-some where one guy had had

trouble for a while and he went away to the bathroom the other two were going on and then after a while he was good again and then he came back home. Like there you are, it was a float, like a real three-some. Someone's gonna get up and go to the bathroom at some point. Exactly. I'm all happy. I'm super happy to be here. It's been a wonderful conversation really. Oh, this was a fun show you guys. I so enjoyed this show. I'm all riled up.

We should go home and watch some more porn. All right, I gotta go, but don't worry, I'll be back soon with more Sucks with Emily. You guys, there's so much more to talk about, so don't miss my next episode. Subscribe to Sucks with Emily right now. Please like, review, and share this podcast with the ones you love. Was it good for you? Email me feedback at sexwithemily.com.

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