Sex With Emily - Real Self, Real Sex w/ Jeffrey Marsh

Episode Date: June 5, 2021

On today’s show, I am joined by activist, author, and queer commentator Jeffrey Marsh to discuss all things gender. Regardless of how you identify, Jeffrey’s radical self-acceptance will help you to gain a new perspective, have a different understanding of yourself and allow you to stop any negative self-talk. Jeffrey breaks down the difference between confidence self-acceptance, how fearlessly demanding respect from others frees you up to fully be yourself, and their experience as the first openly non-binary person on television.We share the basics of gender pronouns, the difference between being trans and non-binary, how gender differs from sexual orientation, and how parents can support their children regardless of their identity. We also dive into Jeffrey’s book How to Be You, what happens during meditation and self-care journeys, and why learning to ask for what you need is crucial for healthy relationships.For more information about Jeffrey Marsh (they/them), visit: http://jeffreymarsh.comFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Music People, I'm sure are listening and are tripped up by that statement. A penis does not make you a man. Yes, there are women in this world with penis. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mark our sacred institutions. Bet through eyes they call them in a fight on day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. And today's show I'm joined by activist, author, and queer commentator Jeffrey Marsh to discuss all things gender. Jeffrey breaks down their approach towards radical self-acceptance and how to really, truly do it, how ferociously demanding respect from others frees you up to fully be yourself. The importance of representation for trans individuals and their experience as the first openly non-binary person on television. They even help

me identify my needs and go a little bit deeper and explore why it might be difficult for me to ask for all my needs to be met. We go there. We also dive into Jeffree's book How to Be You. Intentions with Emily, for each episode, let's set an intention. I do it. I encourage you to do the same. My intention of this episode was to showcase different ways to wholeheartedly embrace your inner self to live a more authentic life with very specific tips. All right, questions. If you wanna ask me a question, just call my brand new hotline. It's 559 Talk Sex or 559-825-5739. Leave me your questions there

or you can just message me sexwithemily.com slash askemily. As always, include your name, your gender identity, location, age, and how you listen to the show. Also, check out our hot article right now at sexwithelmay.com. Seven sex toys to celebrate masturbation all year long. Alright, enjoy the show. Jeffrey Marsh is one of the world's foremost commentators, a non-binary identity and activism in America, with a message of positivity and inclusion and a deep knowledge of queer issues in history.

They're also the author of How To Be You, which is now available as an audiobook. Check them out on social media at the Jeffrey Marsh. Jeffrey, you were the first prominent, openly non-binary public figure to be interviewed on national television. So, can you tell me about that? Tell me about it, Danny. I mean, what an experience to be the first person. And we're still because I'm going to have to ask you today some of the basic questions because I have so many things I want to talk to you about.

But I still think it's very confusing for people. They're like, they, them, she, her, now Instagram wants me to choose. People are angry about it or confused by it. So tell me about your journey. Like, tell me everything, Jeffrey. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm happy to start at the beginning. As you were describing a little bit of, you know, why I'm known, I guess you could call it. I was thinking how many of those words in that description do you want to talk about? The first openly non-binary person on TV to talk about being non-binary, there's just a whole chain of things that came together to make non-binary even possible.

And that doesn't mean that our identities are not valid. Of course they are, but we are living in a time where there is a context and a language where we can fully be open about who we are. And to me, that's why coming on your show was such a, why I've been looking forward to recording this with you for so long. Because it does have to do with how we relate to each other, and it does have to do with how we respect our selves and each other,

and which trips up so many people, it has to do with being a human, having needs, being okay that you have needs, being able to do with being a human, having needs, being okay that you have needs, being able to say that you have needs, and being able to request that other people help you with your own needs. So meaning, like, I need to be respected for who I am. And so part of talking about being non-binary is just trying to help people respect me for who I am.

Yeah, exactly. So let's go back to non-binary is just trying to help people respect me. They're going to be like, yeah. Exactly. So, let's go back to non-binary though. So just to ask you these questions, like non-binary, gender, non-conforming, how do we even just break it down from my audience who still can be challenging for people? Because, was it more like to give context? Was it more like you were born a cisgender male, right? No. No. not at all. Okay.

Let's start there. So the way we talk about it is I was assigned male at birth, assigned male birth. So there's a, I almost said, gift certificate, um, but my birth was a gift. There's a birth certificate in a filing cabinet in Pennsylvania with my name on it and it says mail, which I think is what you're getting at. And the reason we phrase it that I was assigned mail at birth is because it feels like that was a word and a label and a category that is irrelevant to who I am, stick with me, is irrelevant to who I am stick with me is irrelevant to who I am and was assigned

to me. That was a decision made for me before I could speak for myself. That decision was based on the genitalia that you were bored with. Well, yeah, I mean doctors at the time, that's largely what they were basing it on, is outward physical appearance exactly so how old are you when you're like this just doesn't feel right to be assigned as a man oh gosh kindergarten well I remember sitting in kindergarten one of the teachers we had I think we had at least two teachers for our kindergarten class one of them spent time cutting out felt figures one in the shape of a boy and one in the

shape of a girl. And they also cut out felt clothing and felt a kutre mou. So, obje, right? A book bag and umbrella, right? As a class, we were supposed to sit around and dress these figures for the day and for the weather. So some, you know, less than about you wear a sweater when it's cold or, you know, I don't know what we were supposed to learn. And I was constantly getting in trouble for putting the wrong things with the wrong figure, the stuff that wasn't supposed to go. And I just put a dress on the mail, perhaps, on the boy. Yeah.

And I was always the kid in class who wanted to wear the princess dress, and I was not allowed to at a very young age. And I was, you know, before too long, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, but before too long, my feet grew too big to wear my mom's shoes without her knowing about it. Do you know what I mean?

Like my feet were starting to stretch into my mom's shoes. When I started early teams, this way of expressing has always been a part of me. And the reason talking about non-binary is important is because it goes even beyond expression. It is the deep way that we experience ourselves. So in other words, it's different than a drag queen, which is someone, there's not a wrong drag queens, but that's someone who

wears things. And that's part of that label is what you wear. Non-binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in yourself. Well, we explained your experience of like, I'm not, I'm neither. Yes. So that's what it mean we say non-binary. Yes, and you asked, you know, were you all sitting in a room together talking about this stuff? And it sort of seems like that, but we were talking to each other and fueling each other and supporting each other on places like Tumblr, if you remember Tumblr. Yes. And Vine. And, you know, we were coming out as non-binary and connecting with each other.

I remember DMing with other non-binary activists and stuff like that. And we thought, for example, they, as a pronoun, is so convenient because people use it to mean one person already. People say, someone left their wallet here. I hope they come back and get it. I wish they weren't so forgetful to leave their wallet. You're saying they and you mean one person.

So we just thought, oh my goodness, I don't have to be a he. I don't have to be a she. I can be a they and it has become one of the cornerstones of our movement because it is so important to use respectful language. And we didn't anticipate that quote unquote pronouns would become this big deal, but they certainly happen. It's simply because it's so important for respect. And now I feel like in the last few years, it gets easier. Sure. You talk about it's like, great, whatever you want. You know what it's like? So you have a

friend who gets married and their name changes. Well, you stumble over it for a while and then, you know, you just use their name. And it's not a big deal, right? So you could find out a new set of pronouns for someone and you stumble over it for a while and that just becomes second nature and also like You don't know the gender of a dog and you use that People do all the time. You don't know the gender of an unborn baby and then the baby's born and you know the gender and you just start Using whatever pronouns are that right? So there there are lots of examples of us showing respect by using language in certain ways

That's all we're all we're asking for. So they then pronounce for trans and gender nonconforming people. So what about trans fitting into, because not everyone trans is non-binary, right? Correct. Yes. So the T in LGBT stands for trans, and it's used as an umbrella term for people who are not the gender they

were assigned at birth. So that's the language I was using before. And it's the easiest for this conversation. So LeVern Cox has a birth certificate somewhere that says one thing and LeVern is LeVern and transitioned to be a sheer. I have a birth certificate that says, does not say non-binary. I can guarantee that. And I have transitioned and now come out as nonbinary. So we're both trans, even though I use Dave and Leverne uses she-her. Does all of that make sense?

That makes sense. Yeah, because people get a couple of good means that you have to have an operation, or it means that you have to take hormones operation or it means that you have to take hormones or it means it doesn't mean anything. Oh, gosh. Yes. And, you know, in my bio, you were talking about how I was the first person to talk about this stuff openly on national TV. And I was asked about my genitals on TV. It's, it's, yeah, when you come out as trans to give up a certain amount of privacy.

And you say, that's not okay to ask me that. Or what did you do? What is the right way to handle that? matters trans to give up a certain amount of privacy. And you say that's not okay to ask me that. I wanted to do. What is the right way to handle that? I've chosen to live a life and hopefully you notice how charming I am. I've chosen to live a life where people can ask me anything, because that's what I want to give to the world. So when I was asked about that on TV, I just answered, honestly,

the reason it's not the best idea is because not everybody wants to talk about their genitalia. Right, so don't ask everybody, well, what can I ask what genitalia you have? Yeah, I have a penis. Okay. And it doesn't make me a man. Right, exactly. People I'm sure are listening and are tripped up by that statement. A penis does not make you a man.

Yes, there are women in this world with penises. Tis true. I know. And you know, I am not a biologist. But biology is incredibly complicated. And gender is usually in a malgam of a few things. For people, they think about chromosomes. They think about hormones. they think about what's called

secondary sex characteristics. So whether you have facial hair or not, they think about your genitalia, right? All of those things kind of mush together, make up a gender for the lay person, for biologists, it's much more complicated than that. But all the things I just mentioned are incredibly like vibrant, wild, weird.

There are people in humanity who are born with all kinds of genitalia. Right. All kinds. There are XXY chromosomes. Right. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of hormone levels. There are women who are what we call cisgender women,

so non-trans women women who's birth certificate? That's woman and they live as a woman right? Who have facial hair? It happens. It's hormones. It's it's it's a what is gender based on and the reason it's a good question to ask yourself is Now we're getting extra deep. It can be a system of oppression. Yes. Separate and unequal genders. That's what we're amounting to. So I'm sure everybody was raised with the idea that in the binary gender system one gender is better than the other gender. Right. And if you even conceive of people like me who are not either of those two, we're horrible,

right? We're certainly not better than men, you know what I mean? Right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we come back. Jeffrey tells me how they learn to ask for what they need, something I think all of us struggle with at some point. Don't go anywhere. So who is Jeffrey deep in that soul? I wish I knew. But do you not even like to think about gender then? Would you ever say, well, there's a party that feels more feminine or masculine?

Would you ever use any of those words? Or is it just sort of something else entirely? Oh, I love that. Yeah, of course. Well, so I have to get metta with you for a second. You see it, I love it. Yeah, of course. I, well, so I have to get meta with you for a second. You see, I love it. You're so ready. So the meta conversation is so many of the boxes we put ourselves into Orphic and we get attached to the box. So to me, non-binary is literally a chance to uncheck all the boxes and then see what we have left. And throughout human history,

there have been people like me and they've been called lots of different things. A while ago, you asked specifically about the word non-binary and for us, the binary genders, binary meaning two, the binary genders are man and woman, the two genders that most people think are the only two genders. And to say I'm non-binary just means

I don't fit in a man category. I don't fit in the woman category. And me personally, Jeffrey, I'll speak very, very specifically about me. I feel like I have a real barrel full of genders. I just have so much gender going on. It's not an absence of gender for me. It's just like I express all in every,

and every which way. Well, what I love that you're doing is, because I know that you coach and you speak and you have a beautiful TED talk that you did and I want you to check that out. We'll link all that in the show notes. But, so let me tell you about a conversation I had. And I had a conversation with a close family member.

She's a lesbian. She's in her 50s. And she said to me, I just don't understand. I have a friend's son who's seven years old and already wants to declare that he is a she or wants to do an operation or something. And my mom chimed in and was like, yeah. And so and so's daughter says,

it allows that she's bisexual, but she's 14 and hasn't been with anybody. It was, this is crazy what's going on, right? The older, like it's crazy. And I was like, but think about it. I know, and I know for effected in kindergarten, she felt that she was attracted to women because we've had these conversations.

And I said, or girls. And I said, do you know, and that was hard for her to come out, not until she was in her early 20s. I said, can you imagine how many other kids in the class probably felt that way as well, but they would not only because they're in a box, and there's the choice of your man, you have to be the woman if you're willing to be with man. But now what I see this is giving young people opportunity to say, I actually don't know yet. And how beautiful is that that they can come from the place and figuring it out.

I just think it's just really miss it or something. People get angry about it. So do you feel that this is the case that this is going to serve or you probably have seen this? A lot of young people are people of all ages to realize it's my choice. And I get to identify whoever I want. Yeah, of course. And to back up just a teeny tiny bit, who you are deep down is not a choice.

You're talking about the choice to express yourself. That's saying the choice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and one thing that I know gets stolen from young LGBTQ people is their future. So I was, I know, I look incredibly young and people can look up my social media to verify, but I'm 43. I was born in 1977, and I literally thought that I was going to be dead. I really began to more and more understand who I was, at the height of the AIDS crisis, and at the height of celebrities even, dying on TV.

And I never thought I would be 43. I never thought I'd be 23 because I never saw an example of someone like me surviving. And so there's anything I can do with my channel. It's to give that seven-year-old who was like me the chance to survive and to know that there is a place for you. There is a future for you. The Flesher looks great with fabulous skin. Hey, thank you. I wish you had a good life. It's also, you know, loving yourself. Loving yourself.

Loving yourself is the best skin care. I mean, because that's also like your book. You know, is all about how to be you. How to learn to love yourself, accept yourself, stop the negative self talk. Yes. You mentioned anger a couple times. Oh, people are angry. I make people angry. Yeah. And you've, you, we've had a lovely conversation.

And you can probably see that I'm just a sweet as pie and I hold firm to the understanding and the commitment that I will be respected. And that makes people anger them when you do that. So I'll give you an example. People often talk about me as a walking metaphor. It's pretty obvious when you see me, what I was told is wrong with me from a very early age. And the metaphor is, I've learned to not only accept that about myself, but love it, celebrate it, enjoy it, adorn it. Right.

It's like the thing that's been taken. Yeah. So the things, and this is what you talk about, I think it was in your TED talk about the things that we think that aren't lovable about ourselves or actually the things we need to go towards, which is such a concept that people think, well, I could never tell anybody about, we're not even just talking about sexuality and gender, just shame that we have about where we fail, that we should be better, we should be smarter, we should be more fit, or all the all the worries.

Saying that I'm going to embrace that, yeah. And you're a living example of that. You were told you can't wear these shoes, you can't dress this way. You were probably bullied. Gee, you think. I mean, yeah, I was bullied actually inside and outside of my home. The places where you're supposed to be safest, I was not. And you know, instead of becoming angry myself, instead of choosing bitterness,

heaviness, and obsession with getting even, I've chosen to help other people make the same transition pun intended, but I did from being misunderstood, being bullied to helping people heal. And it's the same thing you do. So you know, we recognize each other. We do. We do. So Jeffrey, what was the turning point for you when you thought, I'm not going to be bullied and I'm going to go towards the pain. I'm going going to be bullied and I'm going to go towards the pain

I'm going to go towards this and I'm going to live this life of accepting and loving myself because we often say I say all the time if you don't love yourself So you're really hard or even like yourself It's really hard to find a genuine someone else to love you and be like oh, yeah self-love blah blah blah But you you've walked the walk talk the talk and I'd love to know what that looked like for you. What am I doing? I thought you just said that. Self-love, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Right, no, you're exactly right. Yes. So they read hashtag self-love on Instagram. And then they, I was going to make a Twitter joke. They switch over to Twitter and find self-pay. But what I mean is, they get off Instagram and all of a sudden it's a deluge inside their mind. They did this wrong.

You were so stupid. The people at work are laughing at you. All of that stuff happening internally. And I'll tell you a really, really quick story about the monastery where I trained. I was there for an extended stay. So I've been studying Zen for over 20 years now. I was at the monastery for an extended stay and I was about to leave and go to the real world for a while, to the outside world for a while. And the night before I left,

I had very strong feelings like I did not want to be here anymore and went to the meditation hall and meditated and then petitioned the monastery the next day to stay longer and they said yes and so I stayed a little bit longer and what I was able to see is that for me I can't speak for anyone else. For me, in those feelings, those sensations, that heaviness, that darkness, however you want to call it, arrived when I was just on the edge of a real sense of freedom and lightness, that it was in a way a spiritual sort of counterbalance. So in my experience, people who are the heaviest in this life have that chance to be the lightest. Wow. And I try to help people to do that. Are you saying that in a way you were there the night before you were leaving and you felt this heaviness that you wanted to leave?

You're like, I got to get out of it. Is that what you felt? I got to get out of here. Oh, maybe I was a little too euphemistic. I wanted to leave Earth. Oh, you were saying like I wanted to leave this life. Yes. Okay. Got it. Wow. You felt after all the days they're meditating, you thought, I'm not going to go back down there. Oh, gosh. Yeah. This is something people don't talk about in self-care, but sometimes when you go into that sort of work, when you go into that sort of work, the systems that have been keeping you, you, will kick so far into trying to keep you from breaking free. That things will get very dark. So, it happens a lot. Because they're holding on to you, because you've been using them your whole, they don't want you to get rid of your projective men, like your defense.

They don't want to be out of the job. Yeah, that's exactly what they're saying. Exactly. They don't want to be out of the job. All of our negative, all of our defenses are like, nope, we're not going to release it. So then you stayed in extra and you had this enlightenment, a pity, you had a chance. Yeah. And so that was the moment you stayed for a little bit longer and you thought, no, I'm

going to live and I'm going to live this life the way I see it. And I'll tell you, the guy that the monastery said, you know, you'll notice that there's no cliff at the monastery property. There's no lake. There's no, because it's really essential that people who are doing self care are extra kind to themselves, are extra protective of themselves, have every support possible, have every person that they can reach out to available while they're doing this work. And that circles back to what we mentioned about needs and having them and being clear about them. So you got out of the monastery and I guess we're talking 20 years ago, so you've been on this path now for a while.

Yeah, and it was often on with the same monastery for 20 years. So that was after one of my studies, and you know, can you go deep for a moment? What's a need that you have? Say it on the pocket. What's a need I have that I don't currently have, or just a need, I need to be.

Just name one. Loved, respected. Right? Isn't that so human and simple? And every single person tries to live their whole life not admitting that they need to be loved? Because we're afraid to feel needy. We're afraid we won't get it.

Yeah, I'm afraid we're not going to be rejected. We're afraid we're going to be rejected because we don't go after the love because we think, well, if someone really loves me, and this isn't even conscious sometimes, if they let me, if I really let someone into love me and they see all of my darkness, well, they won't really love me

because we're so, we have so much shame around who we are. Wow. Yeah, and that probably comes right out of our childhood, right? Oh, it all comes from childhood. Right. I don't know if you've experienced this, but a lot of people I coach with were always the child that no one had to worry about?

I've absolutely heard it. I know I have these people as friends. And they've been saying, you're the one who can't get their needs met because no one thinks they ever need anything. Don't worry about me. I'm over here. I'm the good one.

I, you know, nobody has to worry about you and not the, you know, not the like discipline problem or whatever, a different childhood experience would be. But it's to me, when I did that, when I was a kid, I used my mom as a Lutheran pastor. And so I used Jesus as that shield. And I was, I could quote the Bible and I was the most like in with Jesus kind of person and I was using it as a shield in a way to see perfect and lovable and and all of that stuff. As I like a book end, you know, having gone on this spiritual journey to be not currently Christian, not harboring any resentment toward Christianity and the least, but I'm not Christian at the moment. So many Christians are right to me and say,

they use the exact same language in every DM. They say, I remind them of Jesus. And so there's some sort of like symmetry of what I've devoted my life to is some sort of book and to what I was raised with. Well, that must be because you were raised with it. So it's truly part of who you are. Are there parts of it though that you can still respect and honor parts of being Lutheran? It's a Christianity for sure. Christianity.

Yeah, I mean, like for example, if you read the things Jesus said in the Bible, thumbs up. I mean, that really is spiritually sound stuff. I was told as a kid. So, I think, example, the other side, I was told as a kid, you're, you know, Jesus doesn't love you. God hates you. You're never going to have them unless you change who you are. That's the people in your home. And out of your home told you this, you're so brave, Jeffrey, so many people stay in those environments because they're so afraid to leave family and to leave what's perceived as the only love they have. But it's really around people who aren't willing to accept them as who they are.

Can I say something weird? Yes, of course. I think staying, I think that exchange to stay small in order to be safe. I think that takes bravery in a weird way. Yeah, that is awesome. That to me is somebody really on the edge. You're so right, that is really brave. You know?

Mm-hmm. It's all brave because we're all trying to survive, right? I think so. Ah, and I would love to see people, maybe from this conversation, understand that it's okay to honor what you need and what you deep down desire. And I'm going to say that if you're living a life to please others, even if it's brave, I think ultimately it's not going to be the life that you could be living in the life that would give you the most fulfillment and the most joy. Oh yeah. Yeah. I when I use that word brave. It's good. I mean, it takes a lot of spiritual mental emotional energy

and focus to hide who you are 24. Well, that's the thing. I know I did. We're not even talking about sexual alters just hiding that you don't want to be in a relationship that you're in or living in. Or hiding that you have needs to bring it back around. To needs. Why aren't we, so how do you work with people to you help them? That's kind of one of their bases is like,

what is a need? Well, we also don't even have the language to even ask for what we want without being there. Especially if you grow up at a home where your needs were just irrelevant, which was sort of my upbringing that no one ever asked what I wanted. It didn't matter. I was on everyone else's agenda and it wasn't important and it wasn't nurturing and it

wasn't getting the granted. My mom's great. We're in a good place, but she had her own everyone's parents does. They love you in the best way they can, but I'm still trying to figure out now. Sometimes like what what are my needs? Because when you're somebody who's constantly like everyone else's needs are more important or no one ever asked me, I remember going to college and I remember just feeling like who am I what I don't know what I want to eat or where I want to sit or what what I want to be. And I didn't have the words then to

say oh you're 18 and you just came from your home and no one ever asked you what you wanted or what you needed. I, what, what I did is, and this is something I still struggled with and I work on, is that I just beat myself up. How did I get to be 18 and not know myself? And it wasn't until therapy and all the years realizing, well, no one freaking asked and I didn't feel seen. So it's interesting journey.

Yeah. Anyway, I've got that either. Yeah. Did you just say anyways? No. No. I see. I don't have a lot of space for my own. I don't usually. Yeah, because that was a brilliant story. Don't anyways it. There are a couple things that I loved in that story because we're all told by that negative self-tape that we are especially awful. But every single person is going around being told that they're especially awful, which is something that makes us all the same and brings us all together. And the other thing I love about your story is, you know, there's no 18-year-old alive who is clear on what they want, what they're doing.

That's true. And then some people have the parents that who is clear on what they want, what they're doing. That's true. That's true. And then some people have the parents that are constantly telling them what they should be and what they should do, and then those people feel depressed because they're like, I didn't want to be a doctor, I didn't want to be a pastor, I didn't want to know so, they don't have choice. So, at least I had a choice.

After the break, I asked Jeffrey what being non-binary means for their sexual orientation. And thank you everyone for supporting our sponsors who helped keep this show free. You're really putting up. I'm so glad the work you're doing because I hope to see this in a world in the next five, ten years where we just don't even see it. I mean, don't you think these younger people who are saying, well, I don't know what I am and I'm not declaring it? I was celebrating that.

I think absolutely. What if parents embrace that? If parents embrace it, that's the thing. When parents embrace that, they send a message of autonomy to their child that you are in the driver's seat of declaring who you are, which may be the biggest gift that a parent could give to their kid. And it's so hard for parents because a lot of parents see their kids as an extensions

of themselves, right? And they think, well, if my kid is a certain way, then people aren't going to respect me. You know what I mean? It's what is everyone going to think. Do you feel like there's more and more people now who were born in a way where they're questioning it, but they feel more? Is it, there's more people now because of hormones, is all these studies that say that people born after 92 have, are born with less testosterone and less estrogen and, or do you think that there's

just more people talking about it now? Like, do you think we're actually seeing more and more babies born with this? I think that's something that we have to choice. Yeah, well, no, I think it's something that we'll see. Yeah. You know, it's just unclear right now. You make me think of a couple things though. Tell me. But if you dig into the historical record, there's always been trans people.

There's always been people who have not been... Yes. ...a man or a woman, and we've talked about them in different ways and conceived of them in different ways. And in some cultures, they've been celebrated and seen as, you know, closer to God than other folks. And in some cultures, they've just been, you know, mundane. And they're seen as the same as other people, right? It's just they we've we've always been around. And the other thing you made me think of is when left-handedness, a genetic trait, when it became more acceptable, quote, unquote, I'm using quotes around this, the number of left-handed people, skyrocketed. But of course, what I mean is

more people could use their left hand because it was natural for them, because it was destigmatized. Right. Right. So as we destigmatize being non-binary and being trans, you're going to hear about more people doing it because they've always been there. They've always been there. Yeah. And do you think that there's a lot of people who come out, this is the question we got from Instagram a few times? Yes, tell me.

So someone said, for people who are non-binary, how does their sexual preference work? Oh, it's a good question. Ask my partner. The kids on TikTok say, I'm a non-binary lesbian. I love it. I love it. Because you would think the term lesbian relies on one person being a woman and the other person being a woman.

But not to lump everyone together, of course. But the kids today, I can't believe everyone together, of course, but the kids today, I can't believe I'm I sound like such a 43 year old, the kids today are just so liberated that the words are something that they can pick and choose to suit their needs when they talk about what they want or who they want to be with or how they're feeling in that particular moment. And I take such inspiration from that approach to gender and sexuality. It's the right way to go. It is the right way to go. This is going to be the most like you answer. You got to communicate with your partner, right?

That's the answer because I came out as non-binary and my partner said, well, what does that make me? And I was like, I don't know, what does that make you? You know, over the coming weeks, we had to discuss it. And, you know, it basically means you're attracted to me. So, great. You can call that what you want. Can I ask how your partner identifies? We use the word queer because it's very inclusive to us. Okay. And so, because we know we're not, you know,

we're not going gonna use the word straight to describe what we're doing. He's the he-him, he's a man. Okay. And so, we went through, we went through a time of discussing it. Okay. Got it, and you came to it.

Which I realized is an unsatisfying answer. No, no, no, but it makes sense. You had to figure out what it was. Are we, do we fit? Well, that kind of leads to another question here. Can you discuss biphobia, especially in regards to bi-men? There's a lot of bi people, and it kind of goes to like, you can't be bi, you must use, it just seems like it's just people, just don't have a lot of information.

Well, it's like your friend saying, how does a 14-year-old know that they're bi if they haven't been with anyone? It's like, you must know, That sexuality is a whole lot more than just what you do with whom. There's a whole matrix of an inner life of emotions and crushes and attractions. And we are complicated, messy, beautiful creatures that have a whole lot going on. And to me, because this comes up a lot, there's a whole lot of just in culture in general. There's a whole lot of buy or ratio. So when a buy person is with a certain person, they get X label, that's not buy. When they're in a different, with a different person,

they get a different label that's, that's by and they it's just declaring themselves by is can be such an act of self-reliance because they're aware of the truth of their attraction. Yeah, and I guess queer is just an easier way to say it too, I think, to get out of the by thing. Can you just be I just think queer is all encompassing now? Yeah, and I think a lot of people find the term by useful because of the way their attraction works. And of course, you'd want to talk to a bi person about why that label is so powerful for them.

True, cap. But I like queer because it's just so, you know. I like queer too. It's a messy word. It is. And I like that about it. Yeah, exactly. But how can parents learn to embrace their child's choices? It is. And I like that about it. Yeah, exactly.

But how can parents learn to embrace their child's choices? Oh, I know. Again, we'll emphasize for everybody, and I know what you mean. But what emphasize is that it's not a choice. It's an inherent thing that happens to you. I see that choices around their, okay. Well, I think you were saying like choosing to come out, which is a choice. Choosing to come out. That's where it makes, right? Right. But so many people just want to assume that it's

a choice and they can convince their kid not to be who they are and that's not, that's not good. So the answer, of course, because I coach a lot of parents is you have to demonstrate total loving self acceptance. You know this from your work. Nobody's going to pick up what you're putting down unless you're putting it down, meaning nobody's going to get any lesson from you. This is my experience. No one's going to get any wisdom from you unless you are demonstrating a person who knows that wisdom and lives it. So no one is going to understand. No one will take me seriously as an authority on self-compassion unless I am doing it. And to think for how do I raise a kid? Yeah, but that's then learning people's self-compassion who

have never loved themselves. They have to do the work. Right. It's the answer nobody wants. And you know, talking about gender, you you know moms especially are conditioned to sacrifice their entire Selves and their lives for their family and children Mm-hmm. And all your children will get from that is that women should sacrifice their whole selves and their whole lives for other people Yes, they just put it so bluntly No, I know. I have what you want to do in Strait is self-reliance and loving yourself and so. I love. So you're part of your coaching program, which people can find on your site, your site, which is jeffreymarsh.com.

In Do you? I love that you offer coaching to parents and to everybody. But it seems like this would be a really, you'd be busy right now. Can I? Oh my gosh. Yes. And can I let you in on a secret? Please. A bunch of parents come to me and say, can you coach my 14 year old? Who's non-binary?

You know, needs help coming out at school or whatever. And I always say, oh, yes. Of course, what I like to do is have one session with the parents first and invariably the parents end up coaching with me. And we may somewhere down the road get to helping the 14-year-old, but it really needs parenting as such a journey of self-discovery. And every parent wants to wants to pawn off the self-discovery onto the other people in the family and help them do it. But you can't. I love the experience. I didn't even know where that was going. You redirected, like, let's start with you. The parents. Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. I trick them. You do.

I trick them into loving themselves. You've such a wonderful way about you. It's true. A lot of us are just, it's just so hard. And would you say that you still have slipups? You still have days times where you don't feel, does it go away? Do you ever feel like some days, or no, you've just sort of been doing it for so long that you always let yourself without the negative stuff. I love, no, I love that you're asking about slipups because I need more clarity from you.

Define a slipup in self-care. I'm really hard on myself. I have these negative tapes. I don't know that's what I need. I think things are my fault. But then I have to stop myself and turn it around and sometimes every day, but sometimes for days it's fine. You know what I mean? That kind of slip up. But that kind of like, I didn't, I wasn't the most loving to myself today. Like I didn't, not today, but in general, those kind of days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love it. So a slip up is anytime where you don't meet the standard of self-care for that day. If that's the definition, no, I don't have slip ups because I have no standards for self-care. Dun, dun, dun.

Why are you bearing the lead? What do you mean? There's no day where I'm supposed to do anything or achieve anything with self-care. Does I do not? Nope. Not going there. So is there could there be a day where I fall into where an old self-tap is playing? Oh my gosh. Yes. Like a self-hate internal tape. Yeah, sure. You know, some people think that achieving some kind of spiritual happiness or whatever means that you won't have yourself hate tapes play anymore. But no, no, I don't find that to be true for me. Sometimes it's like stimulus and response. It's so

ingrained, it'll start. But I don't take it seriously and I don't listen and it doesn't ruin my life. And I don't care about it. You just kind of let it go. You're like, there it goes again. Everyone's got their own ways of. Depending on the situation, I will start telling myself very kind of things. My, in the sense that my self-talk is my business and I'm going to choose. I'll literally close my eyes and say, I love you Jeffrey.

Thank you for who you are. I'm glad you're here. I know you're trying really hard to do. Thank you for that. We're just taught to abandon ourselves, frankly. And all I do is try to come on back. So how do you have any advice then, like for what we could be doing for more self-care for ourselves then if you don't have a daily practice around

I wrote the book yeah I think the place the thing I'll say is that it's very poignant to me that the time when we need self-compassion the most is the time when we're least able to give it meaning the most difficult time when we're least able to give it, meaning the most difficult time in anyone's self-compassion journey is going to be the very beginning of it. And that's when you're least talented at it. Do you know what I mean? So the time when you are absolutely the most desperate, when you absolutely should forgive yourself, love yourself unconditionally, let yourself off of it. When you should just be pouring love like over your psyche at every single waking minute is the time when you least know how to do that. It's just one of the ironies of the self-compassion journey and it's almost some people when they start a self-compassion journey, will start to think ignorance is bliss.

I should have never started this. Do you know what I mean? Because you start to feel worse. Yeah, you're like a tater than it was for a while. Yeah, and you start uncovering these patterns, but then blaming yourself for the patterns, and you start hating yourself even more than when you were just showing up to work late with your Starbucks,

and not thinking about it, right? Right, right. It's like, yeah, that to me is very poignant and difficult. So the advice would be, the as kind to yourself as you can, keep going. It does absolutely get better. You get more talented at it. You find friends that are gonna match your same goals

and where you're pointing to. So important to find those people in your life. I think so. It's like I'm glad to be here with you. I know me too. This is so nice. It's so nice to talk to you here. How would you like to see language change

and evolve around pronouns over time? Yeah. That's a really interesting one. People often ask me, do I want eventually for everyone to use their them? And the answer is absolutely not because a lot of people love she, her, and you know, they are a woman and not who they are. And I would never, you know, there's this common misconception that people like me want to like tear down gender or something. Yeah. Quite the opposite. I want everyone to love whatever gender they are.

And that's what I'm into. So our language is going to evolve. I mean, there's nothing we can do to stop it, contrary to popular belief. And I would just want it to become that whatever way is going to be more inclusive. And can I let you in on the secret? There's probably something on the frontier that we will begin to not call ourselves non-binary anymore because it refers to what we're not. And so we might start to use language to talk about what we are. You know, that's where words like gender fluid comes in and, you know, stuff like that. So gender fluid sounds kind of more fun.

Doesn't it? Yeah. Gender fluid, because our sex is really fun. Oh, your gender can be fun. Isn't that a good message? Yeah. How about I'm gender fun? Gender fun, gender enthusiastic, gender, the way it falls.

Yeah. How do we make, here's another question. how can we make space for the non-binary community? I think the most important thing you could do as an ally. This is going to sound so tragic, but I don't mean it that way. Don't look at us with disgust. That's your assignment. So a lot of us leave the house and we're wearing what we wear and we're presenting how we present and there is something that is gender different about somebody in public. Don't treat that person unkindly. That's your assignment. Because a lot of people have or just have been trained into an initial reaction of finding us gross or scary or

or difficult or whatever it's just threatening. Yeah. And just don't do that. Please treat us like full beautiful human beings. It's good answer. Okay. Thank you. It's an important one. So it is. It's a really important answer because people because it's say like you're wearing makeup, eyelashes, which are felt. I look gorgeous. You complimented my skin. You look gorgeous. You look gorgeous. Your skin. Skin care, but also foundation. That's the real. Right. Okay. Right. Of course. Same. Same. So most days, this is how you dress. You dress more. Indeed. Yeah. Feminine. Okay. In your book, so how to be you, which is now the audio format, just came out. People can listen to your

Delight for you're doing more hyping of my brand and then I am I love it Well, I think I'm honored that you're on the show. So I want to celebrate you You're so quick. How can listeners be more authentic and embrace who they are something I know you talk a lot about which is a very broad question, but like You know what people ask me the most. How can I be confident? Right. That exact word. You're so confident. How can I be like you? And I always have this pause and I really take in that question because what people are seeing in me is not confidence. You know, I realized this a while ago. What you are witnessing is 100% complete, you are witnessing is 100% complete, enthusiastic, self-acceptance. To me, confidence is part of a binary, so you're going to be confident sometimes and not confident other times. And to me, there's a

different plate, there's a non-binary approach where you accept whether you feel confident or not. You just are an acceptance machine, and you just accept everything about yourself. And that's what people witness in me and call confidence. Hmm, that is such an interesting way to look at it. So what we're saying is when you're authentically yourself and you truly, deeply accept yourself for all of your blessings and strengths and weaknesses,

that's the most confident thing we can do. We can show up as that's confidence. And people think it's like, I have to stand up straight. I have to say these certain things to be confident. But it's not about any of that. It's really about an embodiment of who you truly are. Oh, you got it. Yes.

It's not about meeting a standard of what confidence is. It's about that authenticity. And you know, when I went, I've done TV a few times. And it's not like it's not nerve-wracking to go into a studio and have the lights there and, you know, everything. It's just that I know, but I seem competent, or people call it that whatever, you know, whatever that means. And it's not necessarily that I feel internally competent. It's just that I know that I have my back no matter what happens in that TV appearance, no matter what happens on a podcast to be met, a met, a met, a, you know, no matter what

happens afterwards, I'm going to be kind with myself, nice to myself. I'm going to have a snack. I'm going to do something I love, you know, when I enjoy myself. And that makes a person comfortable. Yeah, we have to be on our own side, we have to be on our own teams. Sometimes we abandon ourselves, right? You might have noticed no one else is doing it. No one's doing it for you. We're very few people.

Let's put it that way. Gosh, that is so helpful. You know, can I compliment you? How good are you at receiving compliments? Oh, I'm okay. You talented at it. Okay. I like them. You're okay at it. Okay. We're going to test the limits. Your podcast saves lives. You know that. Change is lives. Yes, but save them as well. Because what you are doing is taking you are undoing machine. And shame is what holds people down the most. Yes, it's true. And you're reaching in there to the like to the things shame is built

on the foundations. And you're you're about to say, ripping that stuff out, but you're gentler than that. You're you're just challenging that stuff. And it's so deeply important. Well, thank you for saying that. I realize how much of sexuality is caught up in shame why we don't fully express ourselves is because we have shame. So I'm just trying to help people spot it, right? Thank you. And people can't even tell, you know, people that they're going to have sex with, what they like, what they want, what they enjoy, what they need. Right, we think we don't deserve it. We think they're gonna leave us. We think they're gonna feel bad about themselves

and then I'm gonna feel like a bad partner because I made them feel bad by asking for something. We have everything goes back to shame. I have to ask, you know, Jeffrey, the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. Yes. And these are sort of where it comes to mind. We were, okay, what's your biggest turn on? Eyes. Biggest turn off. we ask all of our guests. Yes. And these are sort of more. I was worried.

Comes to mind. We were, okay. What's your biggest turn on? Eyes. Biggest turn off. Toxic mask-y on the day. That's a whole other show we could talk about that. What makes good sex?

Communication. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Oh my goodness. Do as much as you like and want. Enjoy yourself. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? You're not wrong and bad for enjoyment. Beautiful answers. Yes. And some answers you might have given. I mean, your work has been so impactful for me. So thank you.

Oh, really? Thank you. I'm so honored. I'm so happy to be connected with you. Now, where can people find you, Jeffrey, and all the things you've going on right now? Well, find me on the Instagram. You can search my name.

It's J-E-F-F-R-E-Y, M-R-S-H. And I'm also a star on TikTok. Okay. TikTok. It's all Jeffrey March. Yeah, and I love the personal connection. So I ask people, you know, if they want to connect with me or whatever, my email is right there. It's on my website, it's on my Instagram page. Great.

You want to work together, whatever, do coaching. You email me and that starts the ball rolling. Jeffrey, thank you. This is fabulous. I love talking to you. It's such a delight. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily.

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