Sex With Emily - Sex, Drugs and the Side-Effects of Birth Control With Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

80% of American women will try birth control at some point in their lives. But what does the pill do over time? Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein are here to demystify the murky, confusing world of birth control and their new film The Business of Birth Control.We discuss the side effects of taking these medications and the information we should all have before deciding which one to use. Ricki also opens up about her newfound sex drive and how at age 52, she’s “feeling like a horny 16-year-old boy.” If you’ve ever had questions about birth control, hormones, and sex drive, this episode is for you.For more information about Abby Epstein and Ricki Lake, visit: www.thebusinessof.lifeFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and on today's show I'm talking with filmmakers Abbey Epstein and Ricky Late to talk about the history, the side effects and the secrets of birth control, and how to learn to love your body at any age. All this and more, thanks for listening. It's not like if you take your system offline for 10, 20 years, that is just going to go back online. Like you just don't know. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a male obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Betrubize they call them in a fight on day. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Today I'm talking to Abby Epstein and Ricky Lake. There are documentary filmmaking duo. In 2008, they released the Business of Being Born and now they have a powerful film called The Business of Birth Control, which explores the ins and outs of the birth control industry. And if you're thinking this is the show just for women. Think again, birth control impacts all genders. And I when I was

talking to them and watching their film, I really took a walk down my own birth control memory lane thinking about, oh god, you know, there was no warnings. There was just, it was supposed to be this innocuous pill that you took. And there are so many hidden side effects. I mean, did you know, And there are so many hidden side effects. I mean, did you know, did you know, if you're taking the pill, the partners that you choose for yourself are different than the sexual partners you choose if you're not on the pill.

And I remember always hearing about that study and it's actually true. And that just describes my 30s right there. I just want everyone to be aware of what we're putting in our bodies, being aware of the side effects and also what your options are. We also talk about Ricky's newfound sex drive. Intentions with Emily. Free show, I also want to set an intention for the show and I encourage you to do the same. What do you want to get out of listening to this episode?

How could it help you? It could be, wow, I didn't know about the long-term effects of the pill. I want to find out more. My intention is to give you a deeper understanding of birth control, your options, just so you and your partner can make more informed choices. The good news is we have several options these days, but here's the thing, finding out about them can be difficult, so Abby and Ricky and I are here to help. All right, enjoy the show. Ricky Lake and Abby Epstein. I can't believe it was our 12 years ago, you guys, did the business of being born. But their new film, The Business of Birth Control, which essentially investigates the business

of hormonal birth control. I mean, a lot of us take the pill. I know I just took the pill and I didn't realize how many risks there were associated with. No one tells you. And not only do they not tell us when we go on the pill, but doctors don't know the way up until very recently. And we're going to have to find out our doctors even finding out the side effects now, but there was some drawbacks.

Things were always great for women to take the pill. And maybe you were on it for a few months and then you went off the pill. Guess what? Your hormones may still be impacted by that. A lot of you call in and ask me about your sex drive and your libido. And sometimes, you know, we talk about the how the birth control pill could actually be the culprit. So what do you do?

What do you do about that? We still need to use protection, right? You know, we still don't want to get pregnant or catch STD's. Welcome to the show, Ricky and Abby. That's your pleasure. I love this talk. So I'm, as you wrote, as you've brought up with me, you know I'm an open book and, yeah,

I, it's been such an interesting journey for me having been on Pornmonal Brook Control for decades. I'm now off of it. I've been off of it for a very long time. My husband, who passed away three and a half years ago, but he had a vasectomy. And now I'm not on any sort of hormones. And it's safe to say I just turned 52 last week.

And I have the libido of a 16 year old horny boy Like it's crazy. I feel like I'm in my sexual completely in my sexual prime at my age. Yes. I you are my hero Tell me we were first off Ricky. Are you are we connecting that to you going off the birth control pill? No, I mean I'm sure I mean, I'm sure the last hormonal, I'm trying to think of the last hormonal birth control that I was on was a the Marena IUD. So I did that and I didn't and I was married at the time to my husband. I didn't like it. It wasn't about the hormones, but I remember the string. He could feel the string. And so it didn't work for us. And then he had a vasectomy. the string and so it didn't work for us and then he had a vasectomy. Okay, you're like, bye. That was the best birth control out there, by the way.

It is. Yeah, the IUD. No, the vasectomy. The vasectomy is the best. Yeah, we, that's a whole nother show about what men can do, but let's start right now. Let's talk about how did you get interested in making this film, the business of birth control? Was it because of the side effects you experienced, both of you?

Actually, I mean, I didn't really contribute, because my main side effect that I dealt with with the pill was hair loss. So I just came out in the last year. I shaved my head in dramatic fashion because I'd been dealing with really, really debilitating hair loss that was super shameful. And it was like my deep dark secret.

And I didn't really attribute it to the hormonal birth control until after the fact. You know, I didn't know that it could be a major side effect for so many women. But that was also, we were well on the way of making this film. This film came about through Holly Griggs Ball who wrote a book called Sweetening the Pill. And she came to Abby's Center, the galley of her book before it was being published. And it just clicked with Abby Reddit. And she's like, I think this is our next film

because obviously we have this audience that really, really trusts us with the business of being born. It just felt like the next obvious progression for us and the work that we do for educating women about their health options. Yeah, we really need it right now. It's just so insane to me.

And in fact, in watching a little bit of your film, which I think is so well done, I want to, I can't wait to send it to like literally all the women I know because I feel that we just, we were talking about this before the show. I just got handed a pill when I was 18 before I went to college. I just thought it was like this innocuous thing that wouldn't really have an impact. And then now I was looking back on it. In fact, even in watching your film, I thought, I remember taking it a week before I went up to school freshman year. And then I remember that's when I started feeling anxiety for the first time, extreme ADD, depressed, the best part. Okay, I will say this. I'm my breast godler. I like it went from like an A to a C. Anyway, but

I didn't know why. I never thought about the it's a pill. There's so many hidden side effects that we don't talk about. So what have you discovered on the journey of making the business of birth control? We learned so much, so so much. One of the big like revelations I had when I read this book, Sweetening the Pill, was I had sort of a similar thing in college. I had kind of a year of like, you know, mental depression, weird crying spells that was definitely because I was put on the pill and I didn't connect it. Like I just thought I was like, right, I'm home sick.

It's my freshman year. Yeah. And the same thing like weight gain. I was like, oh, it's the freshman 15. Like I didn't connect that to the pill. Like I didn't connect any of these side effects. But then the other thing I thought that was really interesting in retrospect was this attraction issue. So I had had men that I had either dated and then gone on the pill, and then suddenly I didn't wanna have sex with those men anymore, or like long-term relationships where I was on the pill, the whole relationship,

and then went off to take a break. And suddenly I was like, oh my God, that guy over there is so hot. And I don't want to sleep with the guy I'm with. And what we found for making the film is this is scientific, actually. So your pheromones, which are a huge part of physical attraction,

and we sort of take that for granted, right? The smell thing. If you really are going to be attracted to someone, you have to be able to like live in their armpit as one of the doctors essentially. Essentially, like you have to like love their stink. Like you have to, and the reason that you do is because your immune system is like taking in information about their entire immune system as well because, biologically, the human body is always geared toward like mating, right? And like healthy offspring. So you're essentially, you know, smelling out

like this mating partner, but when you go on hormonal birth control, that whole mechanism goes offline. And you actually start becoming attracted to men who are more feminine, more nurturing, like kind of more similar than opposite to that. I thought that Ricky and I were both blown away by that. That makes so much sense.

There's my 30s right there. Yeah, the every guy dating my 30s was that and I went off and on the pill. I love that you brought this up because that was the whole the t-shirt test, right? When they women, that was related when they smelled a man's t-shirt, right? After he slept in it or swatted it, are we attracted to it still? And I remember hearing this as sort of lore, like, oh, the pill. And also, it makes you not attracted to people that you would be otherwise. So, but it's true. I mean, it makes sense because like mute those processing systems,

the hormones, and so it's just, it's kind of amazing. That's fascinating. It's fascinating. If women knew that their entire hormonal system is completely shut off when they're on these drugs, they're not getting a real period. It's withdrawal bleed. It's not, you know, and there's a reason. Like, you know, we're supposed to have this like

cyclical rise and fall to when we're creative. The idea of disconnecting from our power, you know, it's like we're supposed to go through these emotions and these array of changes during the month, you know? And it's, I learned so much through the making of this film. And of course, like, I wish I had access to this information way back when, because who knows how different things might have turned out, you know? Yeah. This is like a movement. I feel, I feel it, but you said Jo-Leen Brighton in your film. And she was on my show about two years ago. And I was like,

Jo-Leen, this is a movement. Probably how you felt Abby, when you read the book, you when you read, sweetening the pill. It's like, how do we not know? But here's my question though, and I think your film is going to be such an important part of this movement. But so many people I know are on the pill. People clip my nieces, 18 and 20, they're on the pill.

And I sort of tried to suggest there were other options, but that's just what everyone's doing. All the kids are doing it. And it concerns me. And I'm not sure there are alternatives, but it's a little bit more heavy lifting. Can we talk about some of those, like maybe what some of the, what else can we do?

Because I don't want people to scroll, okay, I'm gonna stop taking the pill today because that's not healthy either. And the idea, I just want to clarify that we are not trying to scare women off these pills. Like, we want everyone to have access to all of the options, but we want them to be educated, and we want, you know, more options.

That's ultimately what we want. So, fam is something we talk about in the film Fertility Awareness Method, which is, you know, scientific, it's not pull and pray. It's, you learn true body literacy, you learn exactly when you're cycle, you know, when you are ovulating, and it's really three or four days out of the month,

out of a 30 day window, you know, and it's just, you take your basal temperature, and it's a learning curve, You know, it takes a commitment, but there's so many apps out there that can help. You know, there's clue and there's flow living. And there's so many, a mid with technology. And that's empowering to, I think, women.

You know, I think it would be a peeling idea. We think new, what they were, you know, the pros and cons, and again, I want to specify, we're not trying to scare women off of these drugs It's about like huh you were not told this like this could be you know if your personality is being affected if you're dealing with low-lying Depression if you're dealing with you know These are things to consider that your pill might be causing that exactly Just being informed like I think that women who are just handed a pill all willing to lay should have the information

Just being informed, I think that women who are just handed a pill, willing, willing to have the information to know that they have a choice with it, and that also perhaps by selecting other options should you so choose, or even if you stay on it, to be informed, to study your cycle, to download one of these apps that allow you to track your menstrual cycle. So you just have more knowledge, right? It's like, we care so much about our exterior, but when you think about what, really understanding your flow, and so many women email me, they're like,

oh, I'm on the, someone's the other day, I'm on the IUD, but I don't know, is my boyfriend allowed to come inside me? It's like, well, you know, there's just so much misinformation. I mean, yeah, that's probably why you went on it. That's just, yeah, that is the thing with the pill. That is the thing with the pill.

Like if you're on the pill, you don't really need to know about your cycle because you're not having a cycle. So you don't really need to know. But I will say one thing that a lot of women don't understand is that you can only get pregnant six days a month. Now, I'm not promoting the pollen prey

or the method, whatever, but like I for five years at a very unscientific version of that and had two babies exactly when I wanted to have two babies and didn't have any other babies for those, more than five years, I guess, was almost like 10 years I did it. And I didn't know what fam was, I didn't have an app, but I did have a cycle and I understood the week

that was the dangerous week. So, I mean, you could also just like use a condom and a diaphragm. I mean, you could just use barrier methods if you wanted to for like those days. You know, like, I'm just saying there are options out there that I think people forget. And part of the reason that those options aren are more popular is that what we talk about in the film is that the pill is being used for a lot more than birth control. Well, let's talk about everything.

Everything. Reproductive issue, period cramps, acne, PCOS, endometriosis, fibroids, regular periods, everything. Swings, yeah. And it helps like, maybe suppress the symptoms, but the second you go off it, it comes back, it's not effective. We've got to treat the underlying symptoms like what weighs your skin breaking out, what even PCOS.

I feel like we're hearing more and more about PCOS right now. I don't know if people are talking about it more or there's greater instances of people having PCOS, polycystic ovary syndrome where women have cysts and then they just take a pill which is compounding the problem. So you must have encountered in your film so many women who were having these challenges it seems from the part of film that I saw and they just don't have information, you know, so You're giving that information. The other thing, did you come across women who did talk about their sex drive being lower because of the birth control pill?

Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, that's the other thing that's so strange about these cocktails, because they are cocktails and each brand is slightly different. So you don't know, like, some women are more susceptible to having their testosterone drop and lose their sex drive. Some women don't have that side effect. And they don't even have, like, a good way at this point

to, like, you know, know, like, for the type that you are, this pill, you might do better on this than that. Like, they don't even have a real way, like very few doctors know. These kind of like insider tricks and trades, you know, but when you're young, I would say like, okay, so Rick and I are both on the pill right over 10 years, like my whole 20s. See, I didn't even know that my libido was down or my orgasms were muted because I was having orgasms and I was having sex.

Like I didn't even know how big my sex drug could be until I wasn't on it. And I think that's part of the problem is when you're put on something at 16, 17, 18, you don't even know your libido without those drugs. You know? Exactly. You actually have no idea

because you're probably just becoming a sexual being. You're starting to have sex. You're trying to decide what kind of partners you like. But again, oh my God, and hearing them all together, it's like not only are you not picking partners who you're authentically attracted to because the birth control pill suppresses your actual immune system that allows you to choose a partner, but you also aren't having a libido to even understand who you are. I was on it from 18 to 28, and then I went off for a few years, and then I went back on

it, and like I think my early 30s and just every time looking back on it, the partners I was picking were not suitable. I never wanted sex. I blame my partner. I didn't know what I know now. I thought it was their fault. And it's really it. I kind of a crisis.

How many women around the birth control pill? Did you find out? It's a lot. It's a mini. It's like 80% I think of American women. We'll have tried it at some point. It's so many women worldwide. Right.

Also like the other thing is, I don't know if I should say your name or not, but Ricky remember we were interviewing this actress for our other film and it was an actress who had been with George Clooney at one point. And our member when we were telling her that we were making this film, do you remember this Ricky? And she said that she was on it and she didn't want to have sex with George Clooney

and she thought it was her. Like, and that's the thing about women is that women will always like flip the symptoms onto themselves. Do you know what I mean? They'll always think, well, there must be something wrong with me that like, I don't want to have sex with this guy. You know, as opposed to like not thinking,

oh, wait, what am I taking? And that's really like, I'd say that's a huge takeaway of the movie of just connecting, just connecting the dots. And then, take whatever you want to take. Sometimes people want to be on the pill for a certain period of their life or be on an ID. And you should have those options, of course, you should have those choices

and you should be able to do it safely. But know that if you experience certain things that you can connect the dots and not just think it's you. You're so right that this is every night I have women call in and say my boyfriend's not getting hard or I can't have it. You know, or something's happening and it's my fault. We just immediately think it's something that we did. It's our fault about everything. So we also think if we're not attracted to our partner, it's my fault. We just immediately think it's something that we did. It's our fault about everything. So we also think if we're not attracted to our partner, it's us.

If we don't want sex, it's us. And there's just so many other things. And in thinking about this too, I remember going to doctors and like, are you on any medication? I'd be like, oh, just a pill. You know, just a pill. Which when you think about it,

and you really do a great job of breaking it down in your film about what actually happening and how it's not healthy what it's doing to our cycle. God. Paces me off. Yes. What about women when they go off of it? You're not done.

It's not like you just go off of it, right? Because sometimes it has long-term impact on our sex drive, our nutrition, our hair loss pieces. So tell me what happened, Ricky, you tied it back to the pillow? Yeah, oh yeah. And for me, you know, I, that's what, I would yo-yo diet, I would crash diet, I had babies and then three months after breastfeeding my hair would shed.

So that's just what I was kind of predisposed to, you know, it's just my genetics, but so many women, I'm, I belong to this group called the Women's Hair Loss Project. My friend, why? She goes by the name of why. And she has so many women in this group. It's like a blog and it's a support group that women have gone off of Yaz or off of these, you know, these birth control pills

and they have suffered from long-term. Their hair is never the same. Something to really consider, because had I known that that was a potential risk factor, I might have made a different choice over those decades that I was on these drugs. Well, I think your film is doing it, is gonna do a great job of actually bringing this to light.

And I love that it's in a film so people can watch it. All right, and take a quick break. There'll be more sex with the family. Thanks to everyone for supporting our sponsors. You know, we only work with sponsors that we enjoy ourselves and I hope you do too. How do they issues with birth control disproportionately affect the women of color too? I know there's a lot around that. Well, we found, you know, it was really interesting because when we were starting to make the film,

and I would talk about it sometimes, like, you know, or Ricky and I would, you know, have a speaking event and we'd mention it, and then women of color would come up to us after the event and say, if you're going to make this film, you have to understand this is a particular wound for our community. And so we dove into that. And first of all, there's a historical piece, right?

So you go back to slavery and slaves being experimented on and then we cover in the film that the pill was actually trialed in Puerto Rico on poor Puerto Rican women, you know, because they knew it would never fly with the FDA to test it on American women. So they went to Puerto Rico and you know, there's this history of like black and brown women being used as guinea pigs. And that goes through the 50s in this country, like people aren't aware about the sterilizations that happened with indigenous women. I mean, we're talking about really it happened to Mexican women.

It happened to African-American women. And now, you know, recently in the headlines, there have been these big headlines about this ICE detention center in Georgia and how all these women experienced like unwanted hysterectomies and surgeries, but you have to understand like that's a legacy that's been happening. Yeah. You know, in the 80s and 90s, you had no plans. Deepble pervera.

We're just like signing up for this. Then you find out, oh no, we're pulling it from the shelf. Women are having these horrific side effects. And I'm just so glad that you're bringing all of this to light right now. We just need to know. We just want women to be informed about your choices and what might be impacting some of the side effects.

So Ricky Lake, you're saying that you had hair loss. Didn't ever thought that's what it would be fun because we can always assume it's something else, right? After childbirth or bad periods or your mom had it as well, but we don't think. It's something, when me personally and being a public figure, I mean, I was so ashamed by it.

I was so embarrassed that I didn't wanna, and it was exacerbated by extensions that I used, and the teasing and going to work every day and having the hair pulled and curled and he did all of that is is no good for it. But the pill is a real like there's a through line of a lot of women that when they go off the pill in particular they deal with really really to bilitating hair loss and some cases doesn't recover you know. That's right. That's right. Massive right. That's right. Massive.

There are some people in our film who say that, you know, we'll look back in 50 years and think this was just like a massive kind of experimentation done on the female population. But the pill was actually trialed on men at the same time as women. So they actually, the very first trials of the pill were on men and women. And they just found that men would never tolerate the side effects. They would never want headaches and cramps and all the things. Oh, and floating and like exactly.

So. Awesome libido. Right. And that's, you know, like there's one expert in our film that says, and I kind of love her sound by, but she says, basically, it's like, what we do to women is sort of saying to men, hey, you don't really need your testosterone. Until you're going to have a baby, you don't really need this.

We're just going to shut it off. And when you're ready to have a baby, we'll turn your testosterone back on. And that is what we do to women. And that's why you see that a lot of women have trouble conceiving because it's not like if you take your system offline for 10, 20 years, that is just going to go back online. Like you just don't know that your hormones are just going to kick in. Like if they were interrupted at 16, they may not kick back in at 35 because kind of, you know, your body is like a 16-year-old in some ways trying to find a menstrual cycle again.

So we think I'll go off it and we'll just get pregnant. Doesn't work that way. Yeah, some people do. Like some people do. It did work that way for me just for the kids. Like my body. Me too. I went off of it.

I family planned. I got pregnant both children the first time I tried. I know how rare and lucky I was. That's the thing with it is it's unpredictable. You don't know how it's going to affect my individual. I think we have a conflict right because as feminists we need to recognize oh my god the pill was such a huge part right of our liberation and getting women out of the house and into the workforce and like we absolutely have to respect that but that was sort of like a place in time right we're like six years ahead out of. And why do we have anything else? Why do we always still have the same hormonal stuff? Well, what about for men? You're always seeing that the

studies come up, like they're always every few years, they're getting closer to a male birth control bill, but never happens because as anything that you've heard in your research, it's coming down the pike. There's nothing down the pike, right? I mean, is there anything that you've got? There are a few things in the pike that are at varying stages. And I do know from talking to people that the NIH is trying to put more research into it. There is something that I might be saying it wrong called like vasile gel or vasile gel. I think they're headquartered in Berkeley. Okay. And what they are is basically an injection

that they put into the tube that connects like the sperm to the test. Whatever that. They put a bradicate. That already feels like that's never gonna go. No man wants it. No man wants a needle in his penis. Nope.

It is no. What about a pill that can repress some of the semen, right? Or isn't there something with that tube that they could sort of try to make sure that you can still ejaculate, but you're not going to have the semen that is allowed for. I guess it would be decreasing testosterone and I don't know how that's going to go down. Right, yeah. You can't mess with testosterone, you can't mess with the penis, you're kind of like, and then, you know, I was talking to some women who are in this field and they said it's just like,

they need to look at like new biomarkers and like, now they're experimenting with things that makes the pH of the vagina inhospitable to sperm. There's that new product, it's not a new product, but it's called fexcy, and it was an old product that like just got FDA approval, and it's being marketed a bit, but it's like a gel that you insert in the vagina, and it makes the vagina in-hospital. But then you think, okay, what's that doing in my vagina?

Exactly, what's that I don't want to mess with my pH? No, thank you. What's it doing before? You know, but it's true though, I remember my mom saying, when the pill came out, women were allowed to be, I remember her telling me this, that we could finally have sex and we could go to work. I mean, we just fully started the second wave feminist movement, right? Can we go back?

Okay, so was this on the show before the show? You're talking about Ricky, your sex drive is amazing, if 52. Can we just talk about that for a minute? Yeah, it's crazy. How does that? I have a theory, I have a theory that's so out there. Well, first things first, there's a shaman that kind of healed my vagina.

That happened a few years ago. This, this friend of, is he a vagina shaman? Shaman Derrick. You should have a mark. You should have a mark. I want a vagina shaman right here right now. Yeah, I have to give him credit. I don't know what he did, but what he did is he went in

on the phone, on the phone. So he didn't touch me. I wasn't turkey at the time. I was in LA and he did a session for me and we have mutual friends and I'd gone through this loss of my husband, my twin flame. And so I had always struggled with climaxing. And that's struggled.

But like, it took a lot, my husband would joke that I was a tough nut to crack. That crack in the code was challenging, because it took a long time. And I'm a, you know, sex abuse survivor. And who knows why, but it just took me a long time to get out of my head. Yeah, a lot of those things. We do our guys, and so ever since Shaman Direct did a session on me, and this was in two months after my husband passed. 2014.

Oh, he died in 2017. It was 2017. No, but I thought Shaman Direct didn't help me until after... Oh, no, yes, to 2017. Sorry, sorry. I remember, yes, yes. And then ever since then, it's been a game changer like I'm able to Climb out. What did you do? I don't know he was speaking in tongues. He had all these angels come and I don't know what he did

But ever since then it's been a non-issue Which is so funny because my husband what my husband who died was a master lover like no one ever compared to my husband And he would have to work really hard and never since then everyone else that well not everyone. There's not a lot of people Feel it's been a hand on one hand and it's been a lot easier, but um, but yeah, I feel it's a strange thing like I just am so tapped into self-love and pleasure. And at my theory, my crazy theory, because I know it's crazy that a shaman went in and fixed my vagina. But also, I believe my husband

who only wanted me to feel pleasure all the time. My husband suffered from mental illness and he took his life and it was tragic. and I believe I am embodying his spirit. I believe I truly truly believe that his wanting me to experience pleasure. I believe he is in me now and I have been able to come to a place of just like I love my body. I love I appreciate my body and you know my body is not perfect I don't look like a supermodel I shave my head I have gray my natural gray hair But I'm more at peace with my body and loving of myself and that has really really affected my

sexual being you know and really really empowering at empowering, super empowering. And I think it should be inspiring to other women because I never, ever thought I'd be in that place at this time in my life, you know. You guys should write a 50 plus sex guy, like the guy to hot sex in your 50. Yeah. Really been interesting because I was in a relationship, I've been in a relationship off and on with a guy for a couple of years now and I've never been more free. It's so, it's so crazy and I love this guy and he's not my husband. My husband was my twin flame, you know, he was the person, and yet I'm in this new

relationship and I love this man, but I'm like so much more comfortable in my skin now than I was with even my person, you know. Wow. Do you think it's part of too? I mean, I love what you're saying about really, you know, I guess it's making peace with your body, learning to accept it, which as a result gives you the confidence there's so much hashtag self love. And I talk about all the time right here. We got a master, but we got to love our bodies, and even start with liking your body. But it is a journey. So would you say, Ricky, it's also been a path that you've been,

I will give the vagina shaman some credit, but also you're also a woman I believe who has done a lot of work on yourself. You didn't just snap your fingers, maybe it felt like that, but part of it also being in the public eye and having probably criticism and all the journeys you've been through

to now hear you at 52 say like, I got there, is there any advice that you'd impart for women who are just listening up? I hate my body and I could never do that. Or I don't know where the vagina shaman is. I'm sure. No, we have access to shaman jerk. No,, I know. A lot of people have access to Shaman Dirk. No, I think going through this experience

of losing my person in the way that I did, I value myself in the way he valued me. Like I love myself and I think it's just been a process. And when you turn 50 and you're priorities kind of shift. Like for me, I really appreciate that I don't have pain. I don't have physical pain in my body. Nothing hurts in my body right now. You know, like, and that is something to appreciate.

So yes, I'm not a size six right now. The clothes, my skinny clothes don't fit me, but my body is, you know, I'm soft and I'm curvy and I feel feminine and I feel strong. And sexually, I just feel empowered. I feel, you know, like I have these gifts that I really didn't know I had, you know. I, I, I, what are they? Tell me more about gifts.

I'm just, no, I'm just, I just, I, I, I want to be as discreet as possible for anyone that I know. I just feel like I know my body and I also know how to make a man feel really good. How? Now we might have to take a break and come back to that. Hang tight. I'll be right back after this quick break. I'm not a bad guy. Ricky just started telling me about how in her early 50s now she's learned to actually

love providing oral sex on her male partners and how it's shifted and how she's the best lover he's had. She's not just in your brain. I believe her. What is that about? Tell me, Ricky. How does it? I can't really explain it. It's just I mean, it's just the real deal.

Like I I never ever ever thought that I'd be in a place of just loving who I mean, I love being naked and this was something that I struggled with for you know, throughout my entire life. I dealt with body issues being obese, losing all this weight. I mean, even when I was 124 pounds, I thought I was still fat, you know, throughout my entire life, I've dealt with body issues, being obese, losing all this weight. I mean, even when I was 124 pounds,

I thought I was still fat, you know? So I am not 124 pounds anymore, but in a way, I'm just more comfortable in my skin and I know myself. I mean, that comes with age. I mean, I just think, you know, the old-fashioned care. You just know yourself.

Or get out. Yeah. What about the world you're in there? I got it because we only have a few minutes, but I want to know, this is important. How do you feel different? Everyone wants to know. How do you feel differently when you are now giving a blow job that you did before? What is it?

When you see the penis and you said that your boyfriend's eyes are rolling back in his head, best love he's ever had. I think it goes back to empowerment. And having this effect on this person, and I just found pleasure in it. It always felt dirty to me. I think we're just predisposed as women. That I don't know.

I grew up kind of thinking, oh, that's nasty, that's dirty, that's too intimate, that's I feel you, whatever it is, you tell yourself, I think. You just let go. Yeah, that's, I feel you, whatever, whatever it is, my own self, I think, you just let go. Yeah, and I, and have that power. Like I have this power to drive this person crazy. And that was really feeding my sense of self and self love. And it's been really like a gift, you know, because it's like as we get older,

you know, we think we lose that, you know, I'm supposed to be losing my libido, you know, because it's like as we get older, you know, we think we lose that, you know, I'm supposed to be losing my libido, you know, I'm supposed to go, is Mary Menopause. I'm still regular. I get my period every 26 days and nothing has shifted. I've not had one hot flash, you know, and it's really been like I, I appreciate my period now more than I ever have before, just that, that idea that I'm still, I have this vitality, you know, and yeah, I wanted to continue and I take really amazing that is so inspiring. Is there and do you think is there anything you attribute that to? Was it like your health? I think it's genetics. I mean, I got my

period later and I was like 14. I got my periods. They say the later because my sister is younger than me and she stopped getting her period years ago and so many of my friends Don't get their period Abbie's regular like me, but I don't know. I just really appreciate being tapped into my sexuality At this stage in my life. It's really been a gift. It's not something I I predicted, you know super inspiring Thank you for sharing that I have to ask you both the five questions to be asked all of our guests Abby Epstein and Ricky Lake you can each we can go back and forth. Quicky questions. What is your biggest turn on? Just seeing my guy and his eyes roll back in his head is really...

I love it. Abby, mine is definitely like erotic light touch. Biggest turn off. Thrusting aggressive kisser. Yeah, too much tongue. That's what I was gonna say. Too much. Too much. What makes good sex? Chemistry.

It's chemical. I mean, because that's the thing. It's pheromones and it's being present and really being comfortable in your skin. I mean, I think it's all of the above, you know? Also, I think you need a little bit of tension, like a little bit of polarity. Polarity. I agree. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. That you are perfect just the way you are, you know.

That you're enough. I should say enough, because no one's perfect, but you're enough exactly who you are. I would say that you can have intimacy in sex with intimacy in a relationship it can go together. Number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex. Mm. Go ahead, Abby. I'm gonna start.

I would say sex can be many things and you don't have to ever pretend. You should never pretend and you should never partake in anything that you're not fully into. I love it. Thank you so much, Ricky Lake, Abby Epstein. Well, that's it for today's episode. I'll see you on Friday. And thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review. And tell all your friends, your partners,

your lovers about the show. If it's helped you, I promise it'll help them too. We really show on Tuesdays and Fridays and look out for a bonus episode every now and then. You can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. It's all sex with Emily. Oh, and I give really good newsletter. Sign up at sexwithemla.com. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, your dating life, relationships, message me on Instagram or call in to my serious XM show Monday through Friday, 5-7 PM Pacific, 8-10 Eastern. And you can just call me there,

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