Sex With Emily - Sex & the Brain with Dr. Helen Fisher

Episode Date: June 15, 2019

On today’s show, Emily is joined by renowned sex researcher and educator Dr. Helen Fisher to talk about sex, the brain, and so much more. They talk about how hormones play a role in our attraction towards others, ways to efficiently date online – no matter what app you’re on, and why rejection is so difficult to cope with. Plus, believe it or not, millennials are actually doing something right with how they date and interact! Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: Boston Scientific, Good Vibrations, Magic Wand, SiriusXM, Woo Freshies.  Follow Emily on all social: @sexwithemily For even more sex talk, tips, & tricks visit sexwithemily.com For more information on Helen Fisher, click HERE.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by a renowned sex researcher and educator, Dr. Helen Fisher, to talk about sex, the brain, and so much more. Topics include, why we're attracted to certain people more than others. Hint has to do with your hormones. Dating online, the real ways to do it efficiently, no matter what app you're on. Rejection, why is it so hard and how can we cope with it? And how millennials date and with it and how millennials

date and interact and despite all the news articles they're actually doing something right? All this and more, thanks for listening. 6. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Betrubized, they call them in a fight on day. Hey, Avaline, you got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken, he thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair standard. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common, what do you mean, like laundry?

It shrinks. Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'm off here, I'm so, I'm gone. Being bad feels pretty good. But you know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between.

For more information, check out sexwithemily.com for even more great sex and relationship information. Catch me Monday through Friday on Series Sex M stars from 5 to 7 p.m. Pacific for even more fun sex talk and you can get a free 30 day trial at sexwithemily.com slash S X M as always family and all social media at sex with Emily. Okay guys I really hope you enjoyed this interview that I recorded with Dr. Helen Fisher at her home in New York. She's a renowned sex researcher and biological anthropologist.

She has been an idol and inspiration for me, I swear we are kindred spirits. She's a senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute. She's a member of the Center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Rutgers University, and Chief Scientific Advisor to Match.com. She has truly paved the way for research about love and personalities, sex drive, attachment and all the things. I really hope you enjoy this interview with Dr. Helen Fisher. Dr. Helen Fisher. She's a biological anthropologist, senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, member

of the Center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Rutgers University, and scientific chief advisor to match.com. And you really truly have paved the way for research about love, personality, sex drive attachment, and been named by Business Insider as one of the 15 most amazing women in science today. Written six internationally best-selling books on romantic love and future sex, including why we love, why him, why her, anatomy of love. And you truly have been a pioneer. In all these fields, a pioneer in examining the neurochemistry of business, why her, anatomy of love. And you truly have been a pioneer.

In all these fields, a pioneer in examining the neurochemistry of business, team building, innovation, and leadership, but that's more recently. Yes. But I have to tell you the story. So I started this podcast in 2005. And I was in San Francisco and I was driving. And I was just still learning everything about sex

because I came into it like, all I knew was like, sex could be a lot better than it is I think. And I just started in your room, people about sex because I came into it like all I knew was like sex could be a lot better than it is I think and I just started interviewing people about sex and relationships So you happen to be at NPR and I believe you were being Interviewed about why we love and I remember I pulled off the road I grabbed a piece of paper that and I just started I was like So blown away because I had never heard about the three types of love I was just it was so new to me to learn about lust and attachment and craving and all

those things. And I was just, I think I still have the piece of paper because I don't throw anything away. But then I just got all your books. I started reading about you and just, I was like, you know, and then I remember it's just sweetheart. Oh, no, really. I mean, I mean, you're, you really are a pioneer in everyone just, you said, all my friends

are like, I can't believe you're talking to Helen. So thank you for taking the time. I'm delighted, I've always heard about you. And we had a good time a few years ago. Well, that's what I was saying. We had this moment. We were both at a match because I know you do such amazing work for match.com or your advisor for them.

Yeah. And we were speaking in an event. It was a very interesting panel. It was Helen and myself and Patty Stanger, the matchmaker, and Perez Hilton. And the floor of us were talking about the match panel. And then afterwards we were just talking, you know, I just remember feeling like we were both women who chose not to have kids.

Absolutely. No, we never wanted to. Never wanted to. Never wanted to. No, and you're okay with that. You're not really okay with it. But, you know, I see young women today and I, you know and I always say to them, at least I was never disappointed that I didn't have them.

In other words, a lot of women are worried. They don't want to have them, but they are afraid that down the road they're going to get disappointed. Now, it's just me. But I've had two men in my life who had children who I helped to raise, but they were already in their teens. I love teenagers. I love to be with teenagers.

I mean, I love being the other woman. You know, I don't have to worry that they're not wearing socks or that they're, you know, not studying hard enough. I don't want anybody killing themselves. But it's fun to be not the mother and be sort of an older person who can give you some advice or listen to them so many times. They say, don't tell my father and I don't tell their father. I'm building a different kind of relationship with them and you know I mean I'm an anthropologist as you know and for millions of years you know young people have all kinds of people they could confide in I mean they lived in a little community a little hunting and gathering group and you had your

mother but you had aunts and uncles and cousins and older brothers and sisters and younger people and you know all kinds of people that you could talk to and I like playing that role for the young for for anybody I get. Yeah, no, no, I get it and that's exactly how I feel right now is it and now we're really missing that because I've three nieces I all my friends kids call my friends kids call me now and I'm like I will not tell your mother and I want I never would. It's like a great it's like being the aunt to everyone. Yes, exactly. It's the best relationship. But I think that's so interesting what you're saying about it. And I've been thinking that a lot lately too, how we, we move away from our communities. And like it used to be, we were

hunter-gatherers and everyone was around our mothers and our grandparents. And now we have this isolation and this epidemic of loneliness that we're talking about. And I think that that's, that's really real. Yeah. I don't know whether it's real. I mean I haven't studied it. I certainly read about it but I do know that those people that spend more time on the internet also have more friends and see their friends more often. So you know I have there's always two sides of this. That's two sides to it. And by the way I mean you know 15,000 emails, and I don't even know how many texts every year. I mean, just that they're not right in front of us all the time.

I mean, I am in constant contact with all kinds of people. I mean, I lost my cell phone two days ago, and it was a major problem for me. There was a major problem. I'm just saying we're just isolated. I guess I was thinking about the way I was raised without having a family around and stuff. So let's talk about the stuff that you are. thinking about the way I was raised without having a family around and stuff. So let's talk about the stuff that you are. So I just want to think about not having a family around.

I think that we build new family. The community. Yeah. And for example, I call it the urban clan. Now I have an identical twin sister, but she lives in France. And I have an older sister who lives in Germany. And I, until very recently, had a brother that

lived in Independence, Missouri, and Nces that are all over the place. But I have a clan in New York. I mean, I have a group of people in New York and they're all different ages. I mean, one is 24 and one is 86. But, you know, these people I could call on if I was really in any kind of trouble. And so we do build family.

We do. It's just not the traditional concept of family. And I think that's one of the reasons that sort of these holidays can be very difficult. You will go off to your family of origin, your natal family, and you really don't know a lot of them. You don't know what to give them for a present and this and that. And you leave your urban clan, or your work clan, or your exercise clan know, your work clan or your exercise clan or your social clan, et cetera, et cetera, Which are people who have suffered through the sort of the daily problems that you've suffered through? So we are an animal that builds family. That's true. That is true.

But I do think that when you talk about loneliness, this whole thing of FOMO, you know, fear of missing out. And there's no question about it that because of our internet world, we see what everybody else is doing. We see where they're traveling. We see all the photographs of where they went. We see all about their boyfriends and their problems and their girlfriends, etc. And I do think that maybe that's what they're, you know, saying when they're talking about loneliness. I mean, we're seeing a lot less murder among the young, but a lot more suicide.

And that probably is from loneliness. Yeah, I wasn't even talking about loneliness. I just, you know what I've just been thinking a lot lately about family and attachment and just thinking about that it was so much, maybe it was a little easier than we had everyone around us. And now you're right, we are rebuilding and again. We are, we are building it, you know.

Well, the nice thing about is that we can build what we want. Yeah, exactly. You can choose our family, because we are the only family for reason. Can we talk, right? OK, so let's talk. Hi, Mom. Love you, me and it, but you're missing in, and that's cool. So let's, OK, so when I pulled us side of the road,

when I was listening to it, it was the first time I took, can you just talk about to break that down to my listeners? Like the three basics of love. I know you've talked about this for years, and then we're going to build upon this, but the lust, romantic attraction attachment. Yeah, I was walking actually in a park in New York City several years ago, and suddenly I could,

I wonder if we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive. Second is feelings of intense romantic love. And the third is feelings of deep attachment. And that all kinds of love, I mean, you know, is some combination of those three. Now, I'm not you would not be in love with your mother. You can just feel deeply attached to your mother. You're not going to have sex with your mother, et cetera, et cetera. So there's

going to be all different kinds of combinations that we make. But I think that these three basic brain systems evolved and they evolved for different reasons. I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a whole range of partners. I'm even going to have sex with somebody you're not in love with. I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just one at a time and start the mating process. And I think this feelings of deep attachment evolved to enable you to stick with this person at least long enough to raise the child together as a team. So these things do different jobs.

We feel attachment to all kinds of people. What's interesting is when I looked into the brain, romantic love can be triggered instantly. It's like a brain system, like the fear system. You can be scared instantly and you can boom, you can fall in love instantly. Like the love of first sight. Right. But isn't it more lust you can fall in love instantly. Like the love of first sight. Right. Isn't it more lust at first sight? I think it's often love at first sight.

You know, I do all these studies with match. Yes, I know. Let's talk about all your studies. And one of the questions was, do you believe in love at first sight, not sex at first sight or lust at first sight, but love at first sight? And over 50% of both men and women said yes. And when I asked the question, as it ever happened to you, I think it's something like 40% of men had said yes,

and I think 29% of women are 30% of women had said yes. But you have to be ready for it. I mean, as you grow up, you evolve what I call a love map and unconscious list of what you're looking for in a partner. And then suddenly the time is right. You're ready to fall in love and you see somebody who fits within that love map even somewhat and they smile at you and they laugh with you or they crack a joke and instantly you

can trigger that brain circuitry for romantic love and fall madly in love. Not just lust but in love. And you know these three brain systems a lot of people get them mixed up. They feel that lust comes first and then romantic love and then feelings of attachment. But these are brain systems. They can operate in any combination. I mean, you have some wonderful friend at school or at work and it's just a nice attachment and you feel deeply attached and then suddenly you're free, you're free they're free and boom you can feel a romantic love then you can feel this sex drive or you can fall in love first and then suddenly everything

once you fall in love with somebody everything becomes sexual about them. What if you get stuck though one of these phases what if you're only like in the last phase? I think the different times of life, we're looking for different kinds of things. I mean, I know guy right now who just really wants to sleep around. That's what he wants to do. He really does. He does not want any kind of attachment. He had a long attachment to somebody and he's done with that for the moment.

Well, he'll probably get back to it, we'll say. And then there's some people I call them romance junkies. And they need that thrill, that dopamine high, the elation, the getting is the foria, the romance. And so as that begins to settle down a bit into a deep attachment, then they'll feel claustrophobic and want to move on. And then there's people I call them attachment junkies. They can't leave a bad partnership because they're stuck.

They have that sense of attachment, even if it's quite abusive. So actually I think that all three of these brain systems can be perfectly wonderful and all of them can be perfectly horrible. I mean, I think you can have a real sex addiction, a real romance addiction or a real attachment addiction. But when they're working well and when you've found all three in the same person, that's a beautiful addiction. This is right, exactly.

How is this a change? I mean, this is because this was a huge, this was a huge research that you did. It's made a huge impact. And what do you say has been one of the biggest impacts it had on the way people think about love and attachment or at least how could people, what could people learn from this now? Like how could they learn about themselves and the way they date and the way they love? I think my recent research is probably the most important for that. like how could they learn about themselves and the way they date and the way they love? I think my recent research is probably the most important for that. It's on personality. Oh yeah, let's say. Yeah. I mean I think you really learn about, it's nice to know about

these three brain systems. It's nice to know what's happening to you. Right. Right. And it's nice to think, think a little bit clearly about it and you know stay away from things that that don't work. I mean I said to a man last night I was at this gala and he said well so and so and and he broke up and I said well stay broken up she's not the right person for you know. I've known their saga for several months and there's just too much drama. Right. And they're you know they're both wonderful people but they're not right for each other right now and maybe they never will be. So,

It's timing, I mean, so your person, I love your part, we took the personality quiz for you. Oh, you did. Oh, I love your part. I bet you're just like me. I don't know what I'm, dopamine, well,

estrogen, Explorer, Negotiator. Yeah, Explorer Negoti, yes. And I'm like, I do without even reading the dopamine, I'm like, yes, I am dopamine.

Yeah. So, well, let's talk about the person. Because not everybody knows, we can send them to your quiz as well. We'll put this in the show notes, who can take your quiz. So, let's just talk about the research you done in love and personality types for seconds.

So, and then we'll break it down to that, we're the same. Match.com came to me in 2005 and said, you know, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, I don't know, I mean, nobody knows. I mean, we do tend to fall in love with people from the same socioeconomic background, same general level of intelligence, same general level of good looks, an educational level, same religious and social and economic goals, reproductive goals. But you've been walking into a room and everybody's from your background

and same level of intelligence and good looks and education. you don't fall in love with all the time. So all the time to Michigan. I got a nice guy for you. I'm like, no, no. We're in Michigan. Bluefield Hills. Okay. I don't know. I know. I'm in Arbor, but yeah, I went to school there, but it's okay. Great school. Yeah. But I began to think to myself, okay, maybe basic chemistry draws you naturally towards one person rather than another. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry.

Or we don't have chemistry. I always wear it with them means because- So what does that mean? What does it mean, Alan Fisher? Emily is so cute. You don't know what you're studying. You're the one that's like- Well, so anyway, what I did is I went through the last 40 years of biological literature looking

for any trade at all linked with any biological system. And there's a lot of systems in the brain, but most of them keep the eyes blank, you know, the heart beating, they're not linked with personality traits. But these four are the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen systems. So I listed the traits of each one of these basic brain systems and

made a questionnaire for match to see to what degree you express the traits in the dopamine serotonin testosterone and estrogen system. Over 14 million people have now taken that questionnaire in 40. 14 and 2. Yeah, and in 40 countries and Million is point people love questioners. I did they really do they love Pucher does know in the day, right? We all love the quizzes But now and because this one is the only actually the only one on earth that is built on basic brain circuitry No, no, I know that's bragging but no Bragging Jesus thank you. Thank you. So anyway No, no, I know that's bragging, but the bragging doesn't brag enough

Jesus make you thank you really so anyway So here are the four traits that are linked with each with these systems and then I was able to watch on match in all these countries Who's naturally drawn to home and that's where I had suddenly slipped into mother nature's kitchen and where I had suddenly slipped into Mother Nature's kitchen and begun to figure out why him, why her, why you fall in love with one person rather than another. But anyway, so why him, why her? Which is also, if you guys are interested in this, it's all you want more in it's your book, why him, why her?

Yeah, and the question is in that. And the question is, yeah. And in much more detail. And how to get along with these people. But anyway, people who are very expressive of the dopamine system I call explorers, Emily, your one. Yes, Emily. Risk taking,'re one. Yes, I am. Ristakein, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible,

and idea generation. These are the people who come up with out of the box ideas, and they're drawn to people like themselves. Explorers want explorers. They want somebody who's going to leap off the couch and I don't know go swimming in Central Park or Racing over to Lincoln Center at the you know 10 minutes before something's gonna start and just go in and plop down whatever They want to you know take their backpack and go off to Laos and look in the woods or whatever Explorers don't I give it at 25 winter Laos. Okay. Yeah, really I love Laos Me too. I loved it. We should go back. We're the only person I've ever met who'd been the Louse really yeah 25 years ago. Wow. Yeah, I went about 10 years ago. Maybe love day probably hasn't changed no

I don't know how we're not I was like bushwhacking dude Wow, so there you go. Yeah, here's an explorer Yeah, well, I've been 107 countries Yeah, including North Korea and Mongolia. You know, that's the explorer. Anyway, the bottom line is the high serotonin. I call these people builders. They are, they like the familiar,

their traditional, conventional. They follow the rules, their respect authority. They think, they like, think concretely instead of theoretically. They like schedules and plans. They tend to be quite social and they tend to be religious. Religiosity is actually in the serotonous system. And these people are drawn to people like themselves. Traditional goes with, goes for to, and a good example is Mike Pence or Mitt Romney. I mean they've married people who are very traditional like themselves. They follow the rules. They're very structured. They're concrete thinkers. They're principled. Well it's taking

your place like do you think you do you follow the rules like do you never never know. I mean I follow the rules if it makes sense to me, but that's about it Good on the road. I follow the rules of the road mostly I love Well, you're great and but anyway, so that type goes for that type and So the high test test run goes for high estrogen and vice versa people are very high testosterone tend to be analytical logical logical, direct, decisive, tough-minded, skeptical.

Good at what we call rule-based systems, everything from engineering to computers to math to mechanics. Steve Jobs was a good example. I'm sure Bill Gates is... Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is. Hillary Clinton is. I think she's high testosterone. She was actually interested in going into the Marines.

I mean, she's tough-minded, that girl. Right. And she married's high testosterone. She was actually interested in going into the Marines. I mean, she's tough-minded that girl. Right. And she married a high estrogen. That's what's amazing. What did you say that Bill Clinton was probably a high estrogen? Yeah, well, these people are verbally skilled. People skills. The whole world goes, she can't stop negotiators.

OK. And directors, directors of the high testosterone, and the negotiators of the high estrogen. And negotiators, yeah, they think broadly, contextually. And of course, that's you. Because the person constantly interviewing people, constantly thinking outside the box, constantly looking for other ways of seeing a particular issue, is going to be high estrogen person. Verbally skilled people skills can deal with ambiguity. Yes.

Very good nurturing trustee and Diplomatic generally and mentally flexible. So they go for their opposite. It's a work explorers, right? But you said we go would we only date other explorers though because to me who's gonna Pray the you know bill who's gonna make sure we get play sometime, you know, that's why I think maybe I've been more attracted to testosterone or the directors. Well the bottom line is we are we are we are but yeah, we are all four I mean the problem with all these other personality questionnaires is that they put you in one bucket or another These are brain systems. They're not buckets. So for example, my boyfriend and I are both high dopamine, that works fine. I am high estrogen and he is high testosterone. So that works fine too.

He is higher serotonin. And in this case, I mean, he's not that high or I wouldn't have a hard time at it. But he's higher than I am. And so he plans everything. And it's sort of beautiful because I, I mean, yesterday we were driving through Pennsylvania. And man, he knew where we were going. He knew how long we're going to take to get there.

He got our hotel room. You know, we got to the hotel too late. And we were looking for it to go to that restaurant. He immediately got on his phone and found another really nice place to go. All of that, if it had been you and I, we would have gotten out the door and started walking. Exactly! I would have had a good time too! I would have been phone! We found someone that would invite us over dinner maybe, whatever. But this is the thing with my ex, I was saying

that he's great guy, but I'm like, no one planned anything. I'm not a planner, and that I felt kind of like, it was always a thing. I was like, how do I figure this out now? I had a time. I'd never been in that situation before because he kept saying, why aren't you planning stuff? I'm like, in all my life, I haven't been in this situation because I must have always been attracted to the person who plans. So anyway, so using this quiz,

he must have always been with somebody who plans. I guess so, because the things that I've been in a couch. Oh wow. Well, not a lot. I mean, he wanted to play video games. There was a lot of things that didn't work. But in the end, yeah. I try to love him. Do you guys like really with the boyfriend? But it's just interesting to learn. Yeah, but what's really interesting is, and now for example, um, he and I were going to the movies. This was months ago. And I said to him, I said,

sweetheart, do you have any water in your backpack? And he said, yeah, I do. And I said, oh, great, we can drink it in the movie house. He said, no, we can't. You can't bring food or drink it to a movie house. You've got to buy it at the concession stand. Sarah Tonan, right? Sarah Tonan, he had a moment of Sarah Tonan. But you're like, no, I was put in the backpack. I said, wow. But what's beautiful is, you know, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I The matter of psychology is very good. It's all very good. But the bottom line is we are blaming everything these days on our mother and our childhood. Some of who we are is just biological. He wasn't stubborn about that water because of the way he grew up. It's who he is. It's who he was born. It's who he's going to be. And under those circumstances, you just have to do a work around. You don't have to go to a psychiatrist office for 15 years to wonder why he can't bring water to a movie house.

It's just who he is. And then I said, oh, OK, we buy the water. The concession stand. So the bottom line is, I mean, psychology has added a great deal about who we are and how to get along. And it's all good. I mean, John Gottman is a brilliant man, about don't show contempt, don't threaten

divorce, listen, actually, all very good. But the bottom line is get to know who the person also is biologically. And you can make a good relationship. Now, for example, my man has these crazily wonderful ideas. I love them, you know. And somebody else would be very impatient with all this, but it works perfectly for me. And it's who he is. He's not going to change. Right. People don't change either. No, they don't say they can. We can adapt. But you know, I mean, could I ever make you

uncurious? I don't think so. Could I ever make you, I mean, if you and I went to Laos together, I mean, we'd plan a little bit. We'd figure out what we were saying. Right, right. But we wouldn't have a plan for what we're gonna do every day for three weeks. We would not do that. I mean, we'd be anxious, I bet I'm already keeping the cancel date three. Exactly.

We'd bring a little guidebook, and we'd get, you know, at breakfast, we'd figure out what we were doing. We're gonna travel together. I feel like we need to do something together. But no, you're right. But so, okay, so we're going back to this for a second. And I've had a lot of therapy and I've also had a lot of different kinds of therapy, but I thought it was useful. I know what you're saying, because you can spend too much time talking about your

childhood, because eventually you do just be like, understand where you came from and then move on from there. But what about like, can we go into like attachment styles a little bit, because isn't important to kind of know why you attach or sure and so it and things about that I've learned I'm constantly like learning more about that too. So am I I'm really learning about that personally because I was for your four years old and then how do you know if your mom wasn't looking into your eyes like you're everything to her what if she kept leaving the room and then you feel not loved or if you had abuse or yeah I mean all of that's very worthwhile. There's no question about it. What I'm trying to do is add the second half of the puzzle.

A huge number of other people are adding that half of the puzzle. Your childhood, the traumas, who you are, how you expect the world to behave around you, what you're looking for in a partner. All of that is I think extremely valuable. But there's a second half of this puzzle Which is who you're built to be and a good 40 to 60% of who you are does come out of your biology Some people are gonna are their homebodies. They're going to keep being homebodies unless they don't want to be a homebody And then they marry somebody who wants to go out all the time and there may be some friction in it

But I mean, I think you just have to know not only who you are, but who your partner, and your friends are. Now for example, I've got a girlfriend who's very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen. So I just don't do conflict. I just, I'm not in, I just don't do conflict. I can't cope with it, I just don't do it.

So one day recently, I met her for lunch. And I walked in and she said, Helen, where'd you get that purse? And I said, well, I bought it in the street and she said, it looks it, it looks cheap. My friends like that. And I said, Marie. And she said, Helen, I'm just trying to be honest with you. I'm trying to be helpful.

But the high estrogen type takes it as an attack. Yeah, yes. And so when you understand that she's trying to be helpful, but the high estrogen type takes it as an attack. Yes. Yes. So when you understand that she's trying to be, I mean, I'm glad she said that. Right. But one of the problems with the very high testosterone is that I don't fight back. And then one time I did fight back. And I said, you know, and after when I fight back, it's perfectly fine with the high

testosterone. They're used to that. Right. But then I go home and I say, why know, and after when I fight back, it's perfectly fine with the high testosterone. They're used to that. Right. But then I go home and I say, why did I say that? Oh, I feel like such a heal. Right. Oh, I felt so aggressive. Well, you know, and so, I mean, it's hard to not, it's hard to be somebody that you really are not.

No, it's so cool. We can act out of character. It's just tiring. And in my case, it can just be you know very Socially anxious. I see socially anxious It's so funny. I am totally conflict avoidant And I guess and I love what you're saying because I mean a whole like 16 life was went off because in a way It's like I friends like that too and I kind of like it was like no Emily You're not where my friend came over. She must be high testosterone. She cleaned out my whole closet

She was helping me because I was too much stuff and clutter Jake. This is cheap, this is cheap. You can't wear it again. And I was like, great. It wasn't. It didn't make me upset because I'm trying to get rid of stuff, but she's so. And I appreciate her directness. And she literally was like, no, these are done. These are done. Get this rid of this. And we meet people like that in our lives. But it's just funny thinking about the people who are attracted to me, even as friends. But yeah, conflict. I've been like forever. It would be hard to travel with somebody like that for me. Oh, yes. You know. Oh, but you're right.

I know what you're saying. As long as you can appreciate her. And she can appreciate you. She can appreciate your. She does. She looks as important. Yes, we like her. Because I've got friends who just, they just think I'm weak.

Because I'm sweet and I'm pleasant and I'm accommodating. And I'm trying to level the playing field. And they take that as weakness. Do they tell you, but when you're... No, they treat me that way. Oh. You know. But then don't you feel like that you don't want to be around those frontiers? Yeah, not long.

Because it's too tiring. It's exhausting. The friends who are just draining, the ones that are drained. I think you learn this as you get older, you start to shed and I've been working. And there was Jamie who's sitting here. She's my millennial producer. Who I love. 26 years.

I love millennials. We have to talk about millennials. I love who we're going to get into millennials. Good. I obsess, but it's like, I'm like, no, this happens in life. Like her friends from high school sometimes. I'm millennials. We have to talk about millennials. We're gonna get into Monica's that I obsessed but it's like I'm like no this happens in life like her friends from high school sometimes I'm like I don't know if they serve you and it's okay to change and grow and shed but it's absolutely well women. I can't even feel anymore if you're not if it's conflict. Yeah. Every time you call me I'm anxious. I see the phone that's gonna be stressful. No. Yeah. Well I mean women hold on to their friends

particularly the high estrogen type. They're gonna hold on to their, you know, because they feel obliged. And I think women do an awful lot of things that they don't feel like doing. Right, well it's true, but I guess you learn that you don't have to do them anymore, but I guess if it's part of who you are, I don't know if I haven't learned.

No, I'll always be a good friend, and I'm a pleaser too. I guess you're making me feel like it's okay. I'm a pleaser. Yeah, me too. Par me feel like it's okay. I'm a pleaser. Yeah me too. I'm a horrible pleaser. Horrible pleaser. Overpleaser.

Overpleaser. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, my friend finally said to me last week she said, thank you. You just said thank you so much. I'm like I'm so pleased of those. But after a while it's diminishing returns. Like you could just say thank you once. Oh, that's interesting. I was like, okay.

See because if you said thank you all the time with me, I'd get it. Right. Oh my god, I got it. Literally, I'm so grateful that I'm you see, I mean, I mean it though. Yeah. I was so happy with you. So who knows?

No, I get it. I mean, it was you and me. It was so funny. I was doing this years ago. I was doing this photography thing with the photography. It was a woman, and it was me. And we would get out of sync. So I would be moving when she was clicking. And I would say, oh, I'm sorry. She'd say, oh, when she was clicking and I said oh, I'm sorry. She said oh, I'm sorry

I said oh, I'm sorry I'm sorry and finally the guy was her crew said why are the two of you thought constantly so sorry and I just said we get it We get it. Just don't bother us Speaking to this language right All right guys, we're gonna take a quick break and after this more with Dr. Helen Fisher. Okay, let's talk about millennials and the started this whole like, I think it's just a bad wrap, right? But it's such a bad wrap and it is so wrong. It is so wrong. It is so wrong. I mean, first of all, this is these dating apps is just new technology. You have to learn how to use it. The only real algorithm

is your own brain. You get to get out and meet the person and these dating apps, they're not, you know, as I say this at match and they know it and everybody else does too. These are not dating sites. They're not dating apps. They're introducing apps. They're introducing sites. And what they are is they just give you an awful lot of people and then you have to sift through it. The problem is the human brain is not built until we even cope with so many choices. The brain has a sweet spot up, apparently between five and nine alternatives. And after that, you don't choose any. You just don't choose any. I hear about these people who, you know, had 30 dates and 30 days. No wonder. I mean, they're just in a complete deal that they're not going to meet anybody. And so I basically ended up saying, you know, I mean, this, you just have to learn how to use this new system. And the one thing,

number one, after you've met nine people, stop and get to know at least one of those people more because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them and the more you think that they are like you. So stop after nine. And for men and for women? Oh, yes, definitely for men and for women. Men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do.

Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry in men as women, but men just fall faster because they're so visual. Yeah. So, so there's two things. A, stop after you've met nine people and get to know one of them better. And second, think of reasons to say yes. The brain is built to say no, we've got this huge brain region in the behind your forehead

in a brain region linked with what we call negativity bias. The brain is built to think of the negative. For example, let's say we all go to a party and everybody says, oh, Emily, you look so great. And this and that. And then somebody says, Emily, have you lost too much weight? What are you going to remember? Just that. Yeah, like why should I do my weight? What are you gonna remember? Just that.

Yeah, like why should I do my weight? Yeah, I'm just getting it right. So, you know, that's just because for survival I will tell you to see, right? Absolutely. I mean, for millions of years it was adaptive to remember who did not like you. Right, right.

And it's good to know who you do, who does like you, but if you forget who doesn't like you, you could be dead. So, we remember the negative. And so when you go out with somebody, you know, doesn't like you, you could be dead. So we remember the negative. And so when you go out with somebody, you know, in the first day, think of reasons to say yes. You know, overlook the fact that he's got brown shoes instead of black shoes, that he's wearing a t-shirt instead of a tie, whatever.

I mean, if it's really obvious, then you've got to get out of it. No, right. We're absolutely right. We're so picky. People say they're so picky. They're so picky. There's a picky then you're talking to me into you anyway. And women are picky other than men are. For good Darwinian evolutionary reasons.

I mean, we're gonna bear that baby and that's gonna be dangerous. Baby comes out in black shoes. That's what we're talking about. But what about this whole thing about men decide who they're gonna sleep with and 42 minutes or less are on a date or five seconds. Oh, women can decide within three minutes. Absolutely. But what if we decided that but you're saying even then go out with them for a second time,

even if we're not sure, or we don't think we would, we might decide that we would do. Well, it was perfectly, I mean, if they're 40 years older, and you know, speak with a dreadful accent, and don't have any teeth, I mean, you go, split. But, you know, if it's a maybe,

if it's a maybe go out again, absolutely. Okay, that's one thing that's interesting about, you about, first of all, I'm crazy about millennials. I am really impressed with millennials. You are so right, they get such a bad rap. These people are ambitious. They are really ambitious. What's interesting is people say, oh, they're living at home, two thirds of people in their twenties are living at home.

Yes, they are, but it's because they're saving their money and They're building their careers not because they're lazy and don't want to leave the basement They are just ambitious. They're trying and they're being very careful about who they sleep with actually I mean this whole thing is oh millennials are not having insects one of the reasons they're having less sex is they're not Living they're living at home. You can't cart somebody in all the time at your parents house But they are using what I regard as the sex interview. In one study I did with match, 36% of singles had sex with somebody before the first date. And older people get all pushed out of shape about that. And they think, oh wow, you know, because in my day, because I'm older,

you know, we had the first date long before you kiss somebody. These days, they start out with just friends, they're just friends. And then they move into friends with benefits, you learn a lot between the sheets, you get to know somebody, then after a period of time you go and tell friends and family, and then you have the official first date. And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, they're not having a first date early on. No, they're not. They're being more careful with the first date. And these days, a first date is expensive. I mean, in my day, they picked me up after dinner and we played miniature golf or when parking or whatever. But these days, it can cost you $200. And if you're in LA or in New York. So

you really want to know who you're spending your money and your time on. What we're really seeing is the extension of what I call the pre-commitment stage. This long period of getting to know somebody before you tie the knot. What do I think about that? And I think that makes great sense. In fact, I did a study of 1,100 married people and I said to them, you know, a lot of questions I asked, but one of the questions was, would you reminnery the person you're currently married to? And 81% said yes. And I think that the, well, I've got three pieces of very solid data that the later you

marry, the more likely you are to stay married. So what millennials are doing is they're getting their career in order, they're saving their money, they're sleeping around. People, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, money, they're sleeping around. People sleep around. They're learning a whole lot about themselves. But they're also learning in this pre-commitment stage how to get rid of the ones they don't want. They're learning more about their own sexuality, about who they want, what kind of sense of humor, where they want to go, all kinds of things they're learning about before they wed. And I honestly think that this long period of pre-commitment and

the opportunity to meet people on the internet, so you don't have to make, you know, foolish choices when you're 19, you can make a good choice when you're 29. Yeah, I have a whole lot of years to get to know yourself and other people. And then, so I mean, you know, people do tend to divorce. I mean, I'm as an anthropologist in honey The gathering societies. They did tend to have two or three husbands during the crisis their lives So there's nothing new about divorce, right? But I do think that the later we marry well the all the data show that the later we marry the more likely We are to remain married because we don't know ourselves in our time

I always say wait here 30, like just kind of what, I mean, if you can't wait till you're 30 because you gotta figure out who you are. We don't really, not even really, you've made the decisions yet. You haven't been out there in date as many people to understand what might be. Exactly.

You're so, and I love the fact that people are living together before they would. You know, I mean, you learn a lot with that too. And that brings me to LAT. Okay. Oh, we're circle back. LAT. What is LAT? So it means living apart together. I think it's largely for people who are not going to have children or don't want to have children now. Okay. And for example, my boyfriend came to me and he said, you know, he said, I want two or three nights, you know, his son went off to college and so now we could spend a good deal of time together.

And the first thing he said to me, he said, you know, Helen, I want two or three nights to myself every week. Well, the first thing I did is I put my hand behind my back and I pulled it. I said, what are you really what you want? Four, you want seven, are we breaking up? He said, no, no, you know, two to three nights a week. It's perfect for me. I have all these girlfriends.

I have all these things I want to do at night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep and read a book. You know, I want to have to be in bed with someone all the time. I understand that. And so, and of course, I mean, what we're probably doing is sustaining this in this romantic tradition, but we're both older.

Right. Why not? And- And save your life set, but we're both older. Right. Why not? It looks so much like your life's set, your set and your ways. And he has his house, and I have mine, and he'll be here tonight. He was not here last night, which is perfectly fine. He looked forward to seeing him.

You're not picking up his socks. He's not picking up yours. It's exactly. I think that that has. He has his kitchen. He's got contents of his ice box, you know, Fred, you know, fridge, an eye mine. And what I really like about today is that we have alternatives.

Yes. You can marry later. Women can have careers. You can get rid of things that don't work in order to make something that does work. Some of these people are polyamorous. Well, that's not for me. I couldn't do that.

But it's not a matter of morality. I just I don't have the personality Right right right. I'd be too jealous. I don't want to share but But the bottom line is there's people who are polyamorous. I mean every The queer the You know older people with LAT Etc. Etc. I think that we have every reason to be able to build the kind of partnerships that we want. So then why is it so hard then you think for some people to what about the when they say okay going back to millennials who they don't want to catch feelings or they don't want to.

That's a great term isn't it? But how do you get I don't want to catch feels I never heard that before you got me it was like. Before like five years ago, but what is that I mean is that meaning is that protective measure or do you think that that's some way I like to think like they never. meaning is that protective measure? Or do you think that that's some way I like to say, that they never, their friends aren't doing it, so they're not looking, they don't understand that. Because I caught feelings a lot in my 20s, I couldn't help it, I couldn't stop it.

Yeah, me neither, yeah, no, I think they can't either. But they don't want to get committed. They don't want to get into that long term commitment. One, another thing that you just said, you had never heard that term, catchy feelings, the millennials are adding all these words to our cover that I really, really like. I mean, even this thing, define the relationship, DTR.

Now, in my day, you and I, somebody maybe for months, if not years, and you really had no idea if they were gonna ask you to marry, I mean, nothing was defined. They're ringing his pocket. marry me. Nothing was defined. We waited like the ring in his pocket. And now it's defined. And in fact, I asked on match how long do you, when do you raise that issue of define the relationship?

And I was astonished that they said after about four months, I wouldn't dare to it. That seemed very early for me. Oh, really? But they wanted to know what's going on. They really do. They, let's turn term being ghosted and... Yeah, ghosted and benched and all that. And catching feelings and all these things.

They're defining all this. I really think that's terrific. Yeah, I think so too, because otherwise you're just like going in this abyss. Exactly. And then also people also still make assumptions that what we slept together so we must be committed or we've gone on three dates and that person's probably not dating anyone. Even though still they're not dating anyone else Right

And I don't make any assumptions about the person you've gone on three dates with like you haven't talked about it yet Right, that's when you get jealous and all these things happen so figure it out And I think the sooner we realize that there's so many options. It's more accepted right now too to To say to someone I'm casually dating. I'm in friends with benefits. I want this or that. And then, and to say, then you won't be spending a year with someone who doesn't want this. Exactly. So it makes it makes a lot more sense. It's a matter of fact, even, I mean, it's so funny because, you know, just friends have

a very different set of unspoken rules than if you're dating. Now if you're just friends, you can call somebody to go out the day of it. You can have three to five drinks. You can go to a fast food place. You can go over to their house and watch television. You know, whereas if you're actually dating somebody, you've got to call three days in advance. You've got to go to a decent restaurant.

You can't have more than two drinks. I mean, they are defining all this. I am very impressed with them, really. No, it's true. We appreciate you. I wonder if that's this living apart together thing. I just want to talk about how that is such a great thing for even couples who are married and living together now.

I still learn from that because I've always had this hunch that like, when as a young, you know, in my 20s, I have that makes so much sense that to have that separation or to kind of when we talk about how women crave novelty and excitement and all the newness, it kind of makes sense to even if you're to kind of, when we talk about how women crave novelty and excitement and all the newness, it kind of makes sense to, even if you're, even living together, how you can kind of still

instill some of that separeness. And it just makes sense. And I, It's so interesting because I do know people who are living together on the property together and on the apartment together and they've lived. And very often, at least in New York, they'll have to even mesh their schedules

because she's going out on Tuesday night with her girlfriends and she's going to the theater on Thursday with Tatjansaj and what's he doing? So they have to... I like that. I like the fact that, you know, I mean, what is it as Khalil Kapran, the poet, that he's in, you know, puts some space in your togetherness. Yes. And we really weren't built for 24 seven. I mean even in how did any gathering societies women would go off to

Another camp for even a few weeks. I mean they traveled and they didn't always travel together Yeah, I mean I know who have this or like he travels or she travels for work every third week It's great. Yeah, I think that you get to miss someone. Yeah Yes, I've got two girlfriends who during the week the husband works in Boston and the wife works in New York and then they're together on the weekend. So, you know, it's like long distance but they come yeah, I mean I think that's a good thing. I think it's nice in the beginning. I don't know. I mean, but with kids it makes a little more challenging like we're talking like when you've kids it can't be a lot. Well, so it's so interesting because I was talking to a man who was recently married and

has a I think a child who's now something like 10 months old and I talked to him about LAT living a part together And he said oh if I could have just one night just one night every two weeks just to myself I said I wouldn't go out with other women. I just one night in a hotel room and Immediately my friend said oh, I bet his wife wouldn't like that. And I thought to myself, maybe she would. Oh, wait. Why the best thing that ever happened? Maybe he's switched. He's talking about me.

Because we think that they go, and someone goes to get a hotel room. Exactly. Yeah. I think that we need that. God, I'm excited. Now, we aren't built for all this. You know, I mean, but the nice thing about these days is we can do that. I mean, you just have to be honest about it and work it out and build it up and build it together. And that's where my man was so great. I mean, I wouldn't have

dared to say that. But we wouldn't have said that because I'd been like, yeah, because he needed the order at the Saratitan. I never thought of that, Emily, until this second, he needed this structure. He doesn't understand. Well done. Yeah, no, I'm upset all of that, but you also had a lot of therapy because of very bad partnership in this past. I had chalked it up to the bad partnership, but I think that you're right. You need a structure. You need to know, like Tuesday nights, which night are you coming? Yeah, there you go.

Thank you. Nothing is better. Oh my God, whatever I can do. Let's talk about orgasms, oxytocin and attachment. So how orgasms bond us? Because I always say that on the show, but I feel like I've heard you talk about it in a way that how it's just important to just touch in other ways, just the importance of that bonding and touching. You know, I mean sex is good for you. It's good for you in many ways and you can say all those ways better than I can. I mean it's good for the skin, it's good for the lungs, it's good for the bladder, it's

good for the sense of humor. I mean it's good for you if you're with the right person. And in fact, you know, any touching of the genitals drives up the dopamine system and can help you feel feelings of intense, romantic love for the person. But with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin and vasopressin. And those are, those brain chemicals are linked with feelings of deep attachment to somebody. So orgasm is good. And in fact, when I ask match, I do this annual study with match called Singles in America, we do not poll the match members, we poll the American public. So it's a representative sample of Americans based on the U.S. Census and almost 70% of women regard do not regard it as good sex unless

they have an orgasm. I mean the old days where you're supposed to lie back and think of England are over. Yeah, who are you? Exactly. Women want sexual gratification just as men do. But can you get confusing though too? People think that they can't be with several people because women are like, well, if I have an orgasm with them, I'm totally attached to that, I can't be with anyone else.

Well, I don't know, I never thought of that. I mean, yeah. But I mean, I do think that it brings you closer to somebody. I mean, that's one of the reasons that people, you know, sex is not casual, unless you're so drunk that you can't remember it, it's not casual. I mean, things happen. You learn a great deal about a person. I mean you learn, you know, not only size and shape and motion, but whether they're kind, whether they can listen, whether they can accommodate, whether they want to please, whether they do have a sense of humor,

whether they're, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So you learn a lot between the sheets. And I do think that once you get into bed with somebody, you know, I mean, sex, you know, triggers five of the 12 cranial nerves. I mean, you, you, you see them, you hear them, you smell them, you taste them, you feel them. I mean, the, the whole brain becomes activated by the whole experience. And of course with orgasm is one of the most powerful feelings the human animal can have. So, you know, it's good to have a partner that that you like and bed. And, you know, I mean, it's not the only part of a relationship that you could certainly have. Right. Just to remind couples that like the touch is

important too, just touching an orgasm. Absolutely. If you're not having couples like, oh, we don't need any more sex. So usually there's one person that says that, but you do, you have to continue to connect or figure out a. Uh-oh, wait, do it. I mean, you're a sex therapist, but I would think that, I mean, I've always heard from sex therapists that that's one of the biggest problems

when one individual wants more than the other. Yeah, that's the biggest problem here, right. Yeah, and I'm not a therapist, but if I was with somebody, I would be tempted to say, listen, this is an important part of a relationship. If you're not interested, maybe you should try taking some testosterone. That's amazing. Several minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or, or, or, or understand that this is a, is a meaningful part for this other person that you should try to accommodate. And the more sex you have, the more you want. The less you have, the less you want.

Right. But we forget after time. Like we have an orgasm for a while. Right. So no, and it's very good for the body and the mind. So I mean, it's a very important. No, I mean, there's some people who aren't interterably interested in sex.

And they marry somebody who's also not terribly interested in sex. And that's fine. That is fine. Whatever. Probably not quite as healthy. But it's fine for them. I'm obsessed with your personality types now.

Are you the only one who pulled about these four types? Yes, I'm the only one. I think everyone, I'm literally all I can think about now. I'm putting everyone into personality types and ways of certain things. It's an entirely new idea. And the business world really likes it. I'm making more and more speeches in business

because, you know, I mean, how do these different kinds of people innovate? How do they lead? How do you build a team? And you have the same quizzes on your site, the same one for businesses. We should figure that out. Yeah, because this is not about love. This is about personality. Right. You know, and so I mean, for example, one of the problems in business is that people, let's say you're building a team, you tend to choose teammates who are like yourself because you can understand them. Now, if you and I were going to Laos, we might want to have a third person who gets the early ticket, right? Exactly.

I mean, we could rein them in. We don't want an agenda for every single day over there. So it's important to build a team with some of the people that you are not like. You know, I mean, for example, one of the things that I mean, I am all for hiring women and for blacks and Asians and Latinos and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'm all for cultural diversity, but how about diversity of mind? I'm putting some people in your

team who do not think the way you do. I mean, I've started this new company called NeuroColor, and we've got a second-generation personality questionnaire, and we go into businesses, and we train people on understanding these four styles of thinking and behaving, and how to build a team, and how you want to be talked to. I don't like to be talked. I don't like it when the testosterone tells me where'd you get that purse? Yeah, I don't or that shirt is cheap get rid of it

I mean I can do it right and but it's tiring for me I'm trying to be sweet and smile and you know, but you might need that guy to talk to your salespeople Exactly like you know, you got that so we're hiring now. I want that person I test so in my personality in mine Can people hire you now though? So they can go to your site. It's called in neuro color. It's a company Neuro color, but um the co-founder and I his name is Dave labno and I he's very high testosterone I'm very high estrogen. There's a little clash there at times But we're both very high dopamine. We need a high serotonin person We need the builder and there's times that we don't know what to do and so we will call we've got another two people in the company who are very high serotonin

do and we call them and ask them what would you do under this circumstances what do you think about this because we are not going to see it the way a high serotonin the builder would see it and it's very valuable people around people around who can do the things that you don't do. For example, I was once, and also get them in the right job. You know, I was once out at Visa, the credit card company, and everybody had taken my personality questionnaire. And I could see that there was this one woman who took my personality questionnaire. She was the head of the accounting department, a big, big part of Visa.

But on my questionnaire, she was all explorer, all, all high dopamine. And of course, in accounting, you're a bean counter. I mean, it's high serotonin. And it's a very different kind of task. And so I pulled her aside because I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her colleagues, everything. I said, tell me, which is more the real you, the you at work or the you outside of work? And she said, oh, outside of work, you know, which is my question air showed.

And she said, it's a work is very tiring. And it's because she's having to fit herself into a role that she doesn't naturally play. But did she like it or was she like, oh, thank you, I haven't won a beer. I didn't. It's interesting to look at that. Yeah. The people to, yeah, getting yourself in wrong places

that to kind of go towards where your natural, your skills are. That would be the leaders of the company to try and put people where they will do their best. And people will do their best. And now, for example, with innovation, I mean, you are gonna think outside the box and come up with a new idea, a better mouth strap.

That's what you're gonna do. But you want a nice high serotonin person to create the process, innovate a new process for house done, that's gonna make you to impatient. You're gonna want a high tech guy to build the, build the butter Maria. That's the South John, the teeth, the,

yeah, and then you're gonna want a high estrogen, which is also you, who, to sell it, to explain it, to advertise it, to et cetera, et cetera. So just getting people in the right place is some very valuable. It's so glad business is making this off and couple and people dating. Before you go on a date, I mean, you know,

we love like, what about like Myers-Briggs and stuff on their first high school? That's so very, we're not gonna take it. Well, that's what you say. I mean, you know, we have like, what about, what about, like, Myers-Briggs and stuff on their personality? But that doesn't want to take it. You know, that everyone gets it. So, one of the things is very hard to remember. I am an ITP, you know, it's very difficult to remember. It's much easier to remember, explore, build, or... It's really smart.

Good enough. You know, director and negotiator. So, that's, it's hard to remember. But also, it puts you in buckets. And the bottom line is, you can act out of character I can do serotonin. I mean I pay my bills every month. I do get my schedule under control I etc. But I don't feel like doing it right ever ever and I mean what takes my boyfriend two seconds to go into the internet to buy an airplane ticket. Oh wait days before I make the call

Yeah seconds to go under the internet to buy an airplane ticket. Oh, wait, Dave, before I make the call. Yeah, Dave. So as to come sit next to me on my couch, my says, okay, we're doing it now, we're doing it now. I know, it's all funny. Yeah, that's just who I am. I'm not gonna change it. It feels so much better.

Yeah. It's embracing it. Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny. And then for dating to be, and then realizing what's important to you and then finding people who can kind of come. To fill that party.

Exactly, I mean, I had one man that I've hung around with for years. I mean, we're just friends. I've probably known him for 15 years. We have gone to the same restaurant for 15 years. And he always wants to go, he's just high serotonin guy. And I thought to myself over these past years, you know, he would never be a lover. I mean, he's barely been to Europe, you know.

I mean, he just likes his day. He likes the study. And that's biology truly. It's not anything what your parents raised you. You know what? It's so interesting when my book on this came out, why him, why are my editor for the book called me up, he had just read the first draft, he said, you know Helen, I finally understand my son.

And my editor was very high explorer dopamine was taking nobody seeking curious creatives, spontaneous energetic, but his son was the high serotonin. He wanted to stay home and he was a cautious kid. He didn't want to go out on all these adventures that his father wanted to go on. And he said, I love my son, but I never understood him until now. Right. You just get it that way. Hey, that make people who knows if it's because of the way he raised him or if it's because. Oh, it's because it's, oh, I think he's a high serotonin kid.

Yeah, just biology. I mean, I got my, you could look at their brain. You measure their brains, right? Yes, I did. And that's why this is my questioner. I'm not sure. So unusual. I got all the data from looking at all the brain literature to make the questionnaire But then I put two groups of people who had taken the questionnaire into the brain scanner to prove that what I was Measuring with my questionnaire actually Corresponded with what was in the brain. So if I were to put you into my machine first I'd give you the questionnaire you score very high on my dopamine scale the explorer and then when I looked at your brain, I'd see a long lot of activity in the whole dopamine

pathway. I would also see activity in the brain region for empathy because that's estrogen and with verbal skills because that's estrogen. So I would be able to see your brain and see, yes, that's why it's different from the Myers-Briggs and from all the Myers-Briggs actually is quite right in some ways but they don't know it. For example I don't know how much you know about the Myers-Briggs but well when they're measuring the degree to which you are feeling versus thinking what they're really measuring they don't know it but they're really measuring the

traits of the testosterone versus estrogen system. And when they're the perceiving versus judging, P versus J, they're really measuring the traits of the dopamine versus the serotonin system. Once again, they don't know it, but that's what they're doing. You like simplified it that it sounds like. What I did is I got the biology to it, and but then they put you in a bucket, you're either perceiving or judging. They got one thing wrong.

And in fact, everybody's gotten one thing wrong. I think I've never written about this, but I do measure it in my neuro color question. What do you get wrong? I don't think anybody in business or in psychology or layman actually understand extroversion versus introversion. I think that Isabel Myers had it right of Myers and breaks it in that it's where you get your energy.

Now, I'm an introvert. I get my energy from being alone. But if I go into a party, I'm talkative, I'm laughing, I can be the life of the party, et cetera, et cetera. And what they do is they confuse interverses with sort of wall flowers and extroverts with sort of the life of the party But I think they're two separate scales the degree to which you get your energy, which is

Interversion versus extroversion and a whole second scale which is outgoing versus reserve now I am so much I am an outgoing Intervert yeah, this is a whole new thing. I think that is so much and my brain scanning partner is a Introvert. Yeah, this is a whole new thing. I think that my brain scanning partner is a Reserved extrovert. She asked to have people around that people constantly going in and out of her house There's dogs as get this people this you name it this people But she's reserved around people Yeah, I love being alone, but I'm I'm an extrovert But yeah, I need I need my time, because around people all the time,

but I get energy from people, I think. Yeah, and Myers-Briggs have that wrong. And I think the other thing that they've got wrong is putting you in a bucket, because we're all a combination of all of them. It's the matter of degree. Now, my boyfriend is particularly hanging on the dopamine and the testosterone skills,

but he's got some serotonin in him. Myers-Briggs would not pick that up. Oh, okay. And that serotonin in him has been's Briggs would not pick that up. Okay. And that serotonin has been valuable. I mean, he makes the plans. He actually likes it. I keep on apologizing.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I never get us the hotel room. I never do this. He likes it though. He needs to know that it's happening that you have plans to go. Maybe he's always looking at it. I mean, my mom has had a very similar, like, he loves the planning and doing it. So he appreciates it.

I want to talk to you about rejection. Yeah. Because you talk about the most painful. The most painful, you say it's the most painful experience a human can endure. And I agree. Can you talk about that a little bit, the phases of rejection and what happens in romantic love and getting rejected? So after I put my first group of people into the brain scanner who were happily in love,

and they got a lot in love and I got a lot of press and I said, you know Helen, that's really not very important. What's really important is to find out what happens when you've been rejected in love. I mean, that's when people murder or commit suicide or slip into clinical depression or stalk. I mean, if I'm going to make any contribution on this planet, it's going to be among people who are rejected in love. So we put 15 people into the scanner and we found activity in a lot of brain regions. Among them, three brain regions linked with craving, the basic brain region linked with addiction.

It's an addiction. Yeah, you become addicted to the excess, right? And certainly also the brain region linked with feelings of intense, dramatic love. I mean, you don't stop loving somebody because they dumped you. In fact, you can love more. Right. And a brain region linked with feelings of deep attachment, of course, and a brain region linked with physical pain, not only the anxiety that goes along with physical pain,

but a brain region that also becomes active when you have tooth pain. But you go to the dentist, the tooth pain's gone a week later, you've forgotten it. You don't forget it's somebody a week after they've dumped you and go on for months or years So basically this you know this I know you know when I was writing my book on that why why we love I thought to myself Why do we go through this? I mean why aren't we just why isn't it easier? I have to break up. I mean everybody gets dumb and I thought to myself well, you know I have to break up. I mean, everybody gets dumb. And I thought to myself, well, you know, look at what you're losing. I mean, you're not only losing your daily routines, your daily habits, somebody to make

love to and laugh with, but you can be losing your children or the dog or the house and economic problems. And, you know, where do you go at Christmas or at a panic or wherever? I mean, you know, I mean, you lose a great deal. And that's true. And, and company, yeah do you go at Christmas or Pondicle or wherever? I mean, you know, I mean you lose a radio and company. Yeah, you absolutely you can lose friends You can lose neighbors you can lose a lot, but what you're really losing is a reproductive partner You've lost your opportunity to send your DNA on with this individual and if you've already had children with the person You're losing a parent What if you don't want a children? what if you're older and you still hurts?

It always hurts. It always hurts. I mean, you know, it always hurts. It always is so painful. And it is a process. I mean, psychiatrists say this is not my work. Psychiatrists say that, you know, the first thing is the protest stage. You just try to win the person back.

You know, you can try to seduce. You can try and sult them. You You know, you can try to seduce. You can try and salt them. You walk in and say, I'll never see you again. You have a big drama. You walk out 10 minutes later. You're back to do it again. It's an obsession. And you're trying to win the person back.

You can seduce. You can try and make them jealous. You can do a lot of things. And then after a while, you just flat out, give up. And that's the second stage. You move from protest to resignation. And then you sort of slump into the bed and you just lie there and you cry or you drink too much, you drive too fast, you hold up and watch TV. And after a while, that begins to fade. And you move into recovery. So it really

is a whole pattern. But you know, men and women do it somewhat differently. Women try to negotiate a great deal, whereas men will try to make a woman jealous or go out and not get another relationship almost immediately to try to make the person jealous. So they'll do it somewhat differently. But is it true you think that men do it like that

but then they feel it later? Or they just kind of... I don't know if that true that men well men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over So the bottom line is they're feeling it. They're feeling it. Yeah, but they're like just numbing it by going out and dating someone else right away They're probably men and women do it. I saw just as much Sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about it as much sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about it as much. Women talk about it too much. I agree. And what they're doing then is retraumatizing.

I mean, it's something you do want to talk about it to a point. But after a while, you need to stop talking about it because every time you raise the issue again with friends and family, you're retraumatizing yourself, you're reliving it. And that happened to me once with this guy. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was constantly leaving with me, leaving me. And finally, I said to my girlfriends, I'm not going to talk about it anymore, because I'm just retraumatizing myself.

Right. It's so helpful, right? And then you heal. Time does heal all wounds. Yes, it is true. But would you think we should prove that, actually? These rejected people, the longer you get away from the moment of initial rejection, the less activity there is in a brain region linked with feelings

of attachment. So we've been able to prove that in the brain time does he'll, but if women talk about it too much, men often don't talk about it enough. Right. Right. So they don't process it. And there was this one guy, you've got to sort of build a story that you can then get rid of. And there was this one guy that left me, I could not figure out why he left. I could not figure it out. And I finally said to myself, and I was never going to know because he was gone. So I finally said to myself, Helen, make it up. Just make up your story.

Make up the story of why you left, what went wrong what you did make it up And so that you can once you get a story you can throw the story out You can bury the story and that work you just think about you like this I'm to this dad on the way left, but I got my story. I'll never know either like even because that's the thing about the apps You don't even tell me right? I mean, you know, you just appear kind of thing. Yeah, I mean already make it up Yeah, yeah, but we make it up, you know.

Yeah, but we make up so many stories in our head about things too. Like even on the app, so we get more rejected. We had a great day and they ghosted. Like you're never going to know anyway. And they spent an hour, two hours with someone and you've spent 10 days obsessing about it. It doesn't matter if you make it point, just move on. You got to move on.

Right, got to move on. And it makes up the big sense, though, why it's so hard. You know, make it up, make it up. I mean, that's what I would do. I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist or a therapist like you are, but if I was on the internet and I had a really wonderful day, it was somebody or two wonderful days with somebody, and Jesus thought it was great.

And then they said to me, well, I'll call you next week. And then they never do. I would think, I mean, if you really had no idea, I don't know, I mean, just off the top of my head, I guess I would say, well, maybe his girlfriend came back Maybe it doesn't have to do with me. It doesn't have to do with you I tell you all the time for you to never know which to assume it has nothing to do with you How could it after one date two dates anyway or if it does?

Yeah, never know. Yeah, never know. It's healthier though Not to beat yourself up and go to the negative exactly. What we're wired to do right exactly People will say well love is dead. You can't kill love. It's a brain system. It evolved over four million years ago. It's going to be with us. As long as we survive as the species, four million years from now, it's like the fear system or the hope system. It's a basic brain system. We will always love. Well, I love that you've made your life work out of studying love. It's been so helpful for so many people including myself. Well, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Captain Allen Fisher, for being here. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to this show. I hope you enjoyed my interview and enjoyed the podcast. Thank you, everybody, for listening and for supporting the show. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer,

Jamie, and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me. Feedback at sectwithemlead.com.