Sex With Emily - Someone Cheated. Now What?

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

Infidelity - it’s one of the most painful emotional experiences out there. But once the pain heals, it can also create enormous opportunities for growth and self-reflection.In this episode, I’ll unpack infidelity and all the ways it can play out. It doesn’t always mean the end of a relationship. Sometimes, monogamy just isn’t the right fit. Other times, it means a couple needs to work on deepening intimacy and trust with one other. Whether you’ve been cheated on or you’re the cheater, I’ve got advice to help you work through it to create the love life you want. Show Notes:Article: Ask Emily: My Wife Cheated VUSH (code ‘EMILYBFCM’ for 60% off Empress 2 OR Big O Bundle)More Tom Goss: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Website Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't think that affairs are the end of the world. I think you will go, I say like, oh, if someone cheated on me, I would break over them. No, I don't know what would happen to be honest with you guys. I think that in a lot of relationships couples come back from it. It actually can make them stronger. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex.

Infidelity. It's one of the most painful emotional experiences out there, but once the pain heals, it can also create enormous opportunities for growth and self-reflection. In this episode, I'll unpack infidelity in all the ways it can play out. It doesn't always mean the end of a relationship. Sometimes, some naggy-be just isn't the right fit. Other times, it means a couple needs to work on deepening intimacy and trust with one another. So whether you've been cheated on or you're the cheater, I've got advice to help you work through it

to create the love life you want. Intentions with Emily, for each episode, I wanna start by setting an intention for the show and I encourage you all to do the same. When my intention is to give you tools for processing infidelity, whether it's fresh in the past or something you haven't dealt with at all, I want you to be equipped to move through it with as much grace as possible. Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show.

My new article, Ask Emily, my wife Che Cheetah, is up and sex with Emily.com. Check out my YouTube channel, social media, and TikTok. It's all at sex with Emily for more sex tips and advice. If you want to ask the questions, leave me your questions or message me at sexwithemely.com slash Ask Emily or call my hotline 559 talk sex or 559 8255739. Just include your name your age where you live and how you listen to the show and it's told to cool to change your name or choose to remain anonymous. Today's episode is presented by Vush, the sexual wellness brand all about making sex toys more inclusive.

Stick around to the end of this episode to hear how you can save on bush products this Black Friday and Cyber Monday. Enjoy this episode! Before we get started, I just wanted to remind you all that this is the best of episode that may include outdated language like references to gender. I started using the term penis owner and vulva owner in around 2020 in order to be more inclusive of all gender identities and expressions. We're always learning and growing hair at sex with Emily and can only continue to do so with your continued feedback. So thank you.

Menogamy, not what you think. So normal monogamy, what does that mean? So we are taught pretty much the only option we have here in America when I think about it for many other countries is that we sign up for monogamy, because that's really our only option. We say we're gonna be monogamous and we're gonna live happily ever after.

But the truth is, a lot of us blindly sign up for monogamy and we don't really think what that means because we make assumptions. Well, I'm sure my partner agrees that being monogamous means we're not going to sleep with anyone else, we're not going to have emotional affairs, we're not going to do anything that's going to hurt each other, even kissing somebody else or whatever it is, our partner will not do that. But the irony is, is that so many monogamous couples have never even talked about this.

They've never said, are we on the same page with what monogamy means? We don't negotiate, we don't talk about it. You know, just saying we're going to be loyal isn't enough. Some other ways to drill down is just to talk about the specifics. Now, one partner might think that looking at pornography is cheating. One partner might think masturbating is betrayal. Others think, well, if you're sexting or having cyber-sex out, ever meeting another person might also be cheating.

I hear from a lot of you who are concerned about your partner's masturbation habits. You're like, why do they masturbate? They said they weren't going to. So these are all kind of fall under the, what does monogamy mean to you umbrella? What I like about this is that many heterosexual couples have this assumed monogamy mean to you, umbrella? What I like about this is that many heterosexual couples have this assumed monogamy. But then what we see is they have their lives torn apart because of affairs and cheating.

A lot of these couples have never even talked to openly about their sex life before the infidelity. They had a weight, does something happen, and they never talked about it. So that's why I think just opening up this topic and saying, you know, let's talk about what our feelings are about monogamy. Like, let's really drill down and see, like, so you can find out if you're on the same page.

And I think that you can make a contract and send it to your lawyer, but maybe it's just like a written document that you both agree on and every year in your anniversary, you go over it and you're like, how does this feel to you? Is this still part of our commitment? This is still part of our vows.

I mean, because we're all allowed to create whatever vows we want. Couples can understand that just being married or interrelationship is enough to ensure monogamy because we see this all the time with cheating and affairs. So if you guys can kind of drill down and talk about the stuff, I think it could really make a big difference. So in negotiating your contract, you might decide that maybe not the first time you do, but maybe we want a question a nag of you. Maybe we would like to open up the relationship or maybe there'd be a way we would play with

another couple or something. And so I think when you do that, then you actually have your rules and you have the agreement, I think that things in that agreement would be like, you want to make sure that you guarantee safe or sex. So, if you're going to be with someone else, you would commit to like using condoms and using protection. And also this contract, you could renegotiate, like I said, every year and maintain dialogue. You know, I love this intentional dialogue where one partner

is like receiving the information, other is a sender. So when a partner is speaking and the other's listening, you reflect back what was heard. You don't judge, you don't interrupt, you don't interact, and you use eye statements. Like, I really want to commit to you that if something happens, I'm going to bring it up to you or that I'm not going to sleep with someone else without your knowledge. I won't sleep with any friends of ours or whatever kind of rules you make. And then you listen to what they have to say.

It's really respectful form of communication where you can even repeat back what they're saying and write it down so you know that you're both on the same page. I just wanna remind you that jealousy exists with monogamy or non-monogamy, and in fact, there was a survey in this that says that people in monogamous relationships

have way more jealousy and fewer tools to deal with that jealousy than people who are in non-monogamous relationships have way more jealousy and fewer tools to deal with that jealousy than people who are in non monogamous relationships. So they're just like off the touch with jealousy when there's often nothing to actually be jealous about because they don't have this dialogue. So my bottom line of this is, if you haven't talked about some of these things and you're just under the assumption

that we both think the same thing. And I hope that you find out that you do, but how great to bring it up and have this new point of contact, this new way to start talking about your intimate relationship, because I think you'll really be surprised at what other topics might come up that you've never explored before.

I think whether you're in a long-term relationship or a shorter-term relationship, and I think it's helpful in both cases. In a long-term relationship, things might have changed, or you're making assumptions, and in a new one, what better way to find out if you guys both actually think about monogamy in the same way. So I like the idea of having contracts. I like the idea of just starting any kind of sex conversation with your partner because

that will continue into your relationship and really fuel the sexual health of your entire relationship. And then finally, things you know about women in sex that are wrong. I always love some good sex myths, and this is here some more. I think they lay out some really good ones. So when Z Martin, she wrote a new book on true. When nearly everything we believe about women lust and infidelity is wrong and how new science can set us free.

Martin deconstructs the basic building box of like everything we've ever learned about sex from the idea that men of higher sex drives than women and the belief that men are more likely to cheat. We've essentially inherited this cultural script. We've been told this. We've been taught that men are more sexual. They crave all this exciting sexual experiences. After this study came out and it is science, they find out that this narrative that we all believe to be true has fallen apart and it's really no longer the case. When I first started this, I remember one of the first things that blew my mind was that I assumed that women were always the ones who are more frigid to use a lack of a better word

right now, that women were like, oh no, I have a headache tonight, dear This is what we always saw. We saw this in movies and television and the guys were like, oh god She's always got a headache, you know men want more sex. I truly believed it and I've you know come to find out It's not true, but this is just one of those areas where that's actually Science here backing us up. So another interesting point from this, female infidelity might be on the rise. So we said researchers have believed that men are more likely to cheat than women, but this is based on some old study they did with frigging fruit flies. They did male flies versus female fruit flies and they

decided that men are more likely to cheat. Guess what? That one really didn't hold any water. But what they found out now was that married women in 2010 were 40% more likely to cheat than they were in 1990. Perhaps we've even evolved to be promiscuous. There's been a lot of evolutionary biology, a lot of books have talked about the fact that it might be beneficial for women to be promiscuous. I'm not encouraging it. I'm just saying this is why this is probably true because

Just getting more variety of sperm like we're kind of hedging our bends against males They can be infertile men might be the one holding up the pregnancies as well Now this is stuff that that's been written about for decades But the truth is we might just have evolved we might be just as promiscuous if not more than men and Another point here is long term relationships, maybe tougher women than they are for men. Here's another one of those things. We always believe, and I do think this is a cultural norm that men are kind of just struggling through it.

They want to have way more sexual partners than women, but this is a pretty interesting factor that men will be pretty happy in a long term relationship if they're having sex regularly with their partner. But women in the aggregate are more likely to report sexual dissatisfaction and relationship dissatisfaction even if they're having sex with their long-term partners. So this distinction is important. So it's saying basically, men are good in relationships long-term if they're having

regular sex. Women even if they're having that regular sex, they still might not be happy in the relationship. I love laying out some debunking some myths, and we can all have a better understanding of how we all work, and how we can all work better together to have more of my blowing sex. Okay, now I'm going to take some of your questions about infidelity. This first one is from Bill, in the 60s from Pennsylvania. He's in a situation where he's the cheater. Hey Emily, I'm talking to you. You too. What's going on, Bill? My situation, I got into a situation where I wandered and now the person that I wandered with wants to take it further. First it was just sex with a friend with benefits.

Now she wants me to leave my wife and move in with her. All right, Bill, so what do you want? I don't want to do that. OK. Why do you think you cheated? It was a situation where I don't want to do that. Okay. Why do you think you cheated? It was a situation where I don't know, I was just... It was offered and I took up on it. Okay, but how long have you been with your wife?

40 some years? Okay, yeah, that's a long time to be with one person. How are things with your wife right now? Well, that's a long time to be with one person. How are things with your wife right now? Well, that's the problem. She's dropped off sexually and I haven't. Right. And you guys have talked about it and you've tried to bring your sex life back to life. And she's like not interested. Right. See, this is what happens in relationships when, you know, both parties are not participating in the health of their sex life. But Bill, I mean, do you, are you asking me because I understand you're saying this woman

wants you to leave your wife or her after you've had sex with her once, but I mean, I don't think that's a good idea. Do you? No, this has been one or four, like, six months. Oh, you've been cheating on her. Okay, I thought you said you just happened. So six months. So obviously, 40 years, you're been one or four like six months. Oh, you've been cheating on a, okay, I thought you said you just happened. So six months. So obviously 40 years, you're with one person.

This is very, very exciting to be having sex with someone else. It's gonna feel so, you're gonna have all those chemicals flying, the feel good hormones, all those things. However, that can be clearly, that can easily be intoxicating, but it's not necessarily, I think, the healthy thing to do unless you're ready to leave your wife.

So what's your question? Is your question, you know, how do I get out of the situation without causing a, a, a, she's threatened to spill the beans? You got to come clean to your wife. Maybe this will be the thing that brings you back together again. If you very carefully talked to your wife and say, you know what, you have to end a bill. And you can tell her, you already told your wife, you know, see how she goes when you end it with her. I think either way you probably should because it's going to be in your mind.

So it's better that you tell her than she tells her. And I think that that should not be reason not to do it. And you know, our partners are pretty resilient. Relationships can be resilient. If you handle this in a way, now I don't know your wife. And many times this can't go wrong, but I can tell you this. And if you just say, I'm ashamed for this thing that happened. I'm really sorry. I've had this affair.

And you know, we haven't, I know that it wasn't the right thing to do. And I really hope that we can go to therapy and we can work on our relationship and rebuild the trust and learn how to be intimate again because it's really important to me to connect sexually. I feel like we're roommates and you gotta do it without blaming or shaming or making her feel bad

and just let it all that you love her and you're very sorry that it's harder and she's gonna be shocked. And there's actually a, you know, there's actually really good protocol to kind of go through and this happens. I think you should see it there. I think you have, I know you have to see it there,

because when trust is broken in a relationship, it's really hard for couples, nearly impossible for couples to rebuild it on their own. Okay, thank you. You're so welcome, Bell. Let me know it goes. I'm here for you every night. There's my take on it, Ferris.

You guys, it is true that people, I don't think that affairs are the end of the world. I think we've all got, I say like, oh, if someone cheated on me, I would break over them. No, I don't know what would happen to be honest. You guys, I think that in a lot of relationships couples come back from it. It actually can make them stronger. They're like, because then you realize that usually the cheating happens if they were still having sex and they've been communicating for 40 years, they've been together and things were healthy, it wouldn't happen. It typically happens in relationships where things have fallen apart, you're not healthy, you're not communicating, you might even be having lots of sex, so it's not always about

the sex, it's about a lot of things, but that's why you have to keep the health of your relationship strong. So, I think in these cases, the affair can actually, like if you go to therapy, it can be built in if it doesn't, you know, I can also some people can never get past it. This is from McKenzie 22 in Nebraska. Hey Emily, I love your podcast and it's helped my sex life a lot. I'm kind of at an emotional crossroads

and I'm hoping you can help. I love my boyfriend of two years so much. He's helped me grow as a person, learn to love myself, and we build a life together. We both have major trust issues. I've cheated on him before and he and me and I want to get past it, but I don't know how. Anytime we argue, it seems like he brings up when I cheat it and that's his way of our out of an argument and I feel like he never tries to see anything from my point of view,

especially when he's been drinking. After drinking, he gets either really nice and sweet or can say some pretty hurtful things. I don't want to break up because when we're not finding we're so so good together. We never run out of things to talk about and he makes me feel beautiful and sexy and our sex life is great. I'm trying so hard to rebuild his trust in me but I feel like every time we argue we're way back to square one. Any help is appreciated because I'm tired of feeling so awful after an argument.

Thakes in advance. Okay, McKenzie. appreciated because I'm tired of feeling so awful after an argument. Thakes in advance. Okay, Mackenzie, trust is one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing to rebuild in a relationship, because it's a basic tenant too. I mean, we talk about being trust being one of the building blocks of a healthy relationship. If you truly know you can trust your partner, when that is shattered, it doesn't just grow back over time. There's all these unsolved issues. So you can't move forward. And what I'm confused here, I want to clarify, is you're saying that you've forgiven him,

but he's not forgiven you. So I'm curious why, and especially when he's drunk, he's still bringing it up. Is it because when he's drunk, there's less inhibitions, and that means that it's really bothering him all the time. Because I don't think it's a fair at all from to keep throwing this infidelity into your face because you did decide to agree to each other and he's holding on to it. Plus, he cheated on you. So it's a tit for tat. Also, the drinking habits.

I'm telling you, I know that way you lead that out this seems kind of normal. This seems like this is what you've learned to accept. We often sort of normalize patterns in our partners because we love them and we want it to feel okay. And so I'm just telling you after reading this, I had a red flag go up about his drinking because it can be really disconcerting

and definitely not relaxing at all to be with someone who you never know who's gonna show up after they've been drinking. Is it the guy who's gonna be attacking you for your past in discussions or is he gonna be all loving and sweet? So anybody who's personality changes like that when they drink, just put a note in that

and have you to pay attention to it and see if that's something that also needs to be addressed. I know it's easier to hold on to the good things and you love him and he makes you feel beautiful and sexy and all those things, you know, I think are hugely, hugely important. But if you guys are in this toxic cycle,

and he keeps rehashing and rehashing it, and you really love this guy, and you want to be with him, I'm gonna say you gotta go to couples therapy because on your own, it's really hard for couples to get past this without some extra help. And so I think if you go see a counselor a few times, you'll be able to make some inroads into the trust issue.

And once you do that, you'll be able to look at the other things in your relationship, much clearer and see what else comes up for you, or if it's just still smooth sailing after that. So, let me know how it goes. Thanks, Mackenzie. Let's talk to John, 54 in New York. He wants to talk about infidelity. Hey, John, thanks for calling.

Hi, how are you? How are you? Great. How are you tonight? Really doing well, thank you. My situation is kind of, I don't know how to explain it really. It's my wife and I have been married for 26 years. We have three kids, two of which are special needs. And my wife had an affair with our next door neighbors across the street and we were very, very close friends with did everything together, spent a lot of time together and she had an affair with my friend or

woman, husband across the street. And not for a while, we had confronted them, the wife and I had confronted them and they denied it. And then two years later we finally confirmed that it happened and you know obviously she she had denied it and you know I and I thought we were in a very good relationship you know sexually we were pretty active and there wasn't any right you know hesitancy in terms sex life but she then started to have a fair with other people as well, to which were women. One was another neighbor and the woman's husband was involved with watching them. And the only way I came across it was finding pictures that she was saving and then sending

to this other husband next door. And it was kind of like this really weird cycle of what was going on. And I really followed what was going on. I documented everything. I took pictures of her phone and had pictures. So I had the proof of it. When I finally confronted her on all of it, she did it again. And then all of the stuff that I had, all the notes that I had taken down

and all the things that I kind of had harboring inside, I finally opened up and let it all out. And I just haven't really dealt with it real well. It's been a couple of years now. We're still together. Oh, wow. Oh, OK, John, to context you. OK, so you've been together for a while.

And this happened a few years ago. And you're still living together. Is she still cheating? I don't know. I don't think so. The way I used to be able to find out ways of how if she was the way I used to be able to track her phone and look at her phone and stuff whether it was through Facebook or Instagram.

Well, John, if you guys go into therapy because here's the thing. Listen, in fidelity, and when couples go through this and they break trust, you have to go to therapy to rebuild it. It takes a lot of work. It doesn't come back because time is passing. It doesn't get easier. It gets harder, which sounds like that's where you're at. You've been able to keep busy, keep your head and nose down, whatever. But this is therapy. And you both have to go and rebuild the trust or it's not going to work. Yeah, I went myself. She went initially and we never did go together but we did go separate. Will she go together? She's not, you know, just even like when I confronted her on what was going on, she completely

shut down. And we really haven't even talked about a lot of it since it's going on. In two years? So you found out all this cheating happened two years ago. You presented her with all the data. She's like, that didn't really happen. And now you guys are still sharing a bed and going about business as usual.

Yeah. How are you doing that, John? Really, that's not easy. It's difficult. I really do it to my family. Yeah. Like, right. It's, and you know, keeps the normalcy with them.

And, you know, it's kind of like Irish guilt. You know, you can live with it forever. So long as that doesn't affect any kind of guilt. Yeah. I know that. Well, I think we have a little bit guilt. I'm not Irish, but I get it. John, so, so, but what I'm saying, I feel like you shouldn't suffer, though. Like, I feel like you are tough and you're

been strong here. And maybe some ways you blame yourself. I don't know what you do in your head to make this okay, but I don't want, you know, you should be having a, you know, loving where your kids can feel it too. Like I know this whole extent together for the kids to keep normalcy, but I'm telling you, if mommy and daddy aren't getting along or there's tension, they feel that without you saying a word.

So it's not healthy. Yeah, it doesn't, you know, it isn't that way. And I can just a, another added on top. We haven't had sex since this happened. All the, all the information that I had and all that data I collected, she destroyed. And, you know, when we were having sex, even though I knew what was going on, it was just different because she was different in having sex with me than she probably would have been. I know she was in the past. And I could tell she was different.

She was doing different things. She was reacting to me. Right. Well, John, we know she cheated. We know this is all true. So what are you going to do about it now? Like, do you guys share a bed? We do.

Okay. I mean, are you asking me like, would you like to have your wife back to how things were and you want to have sex with her again? You know, recreate that intimacy and connect to how things were and you want to have sex with her again? You know, recreate that intimacy and connect again? Is that what you want? Yeah, I think that's why I'm still here. Right.

I just don't know how to approach it, just because she is so standoffish about when you can front around. She just shuts down. Right, but what are you afraid of, John, right now? What are you have to lose by just being like listen? I love us. I love our relationship. I want to make it work. We can let that stuff go. I for the sake of our marriage and our family. Let's go to marriage counselor once a week for the next month at least try that out Three months actually is what you'll need to really feel something but a month could work

I mean John you have to there's literally no other choice and I feel like She's somehow instilled the fear of God in you. Are you feel bad about something? But you have this is John. This is about you and being a good parent because it's about the mental health of your home. So therapy is not an optional activity right now with what you've been through and with what you do with your children. You will lock going on in that house. And I'm sorry about how hard it's like so open for you and goes out to you because it's like not easy and you're taking the weight of the world on John. So I just need you to find a good therapist and make it happen. However, you can.

That's the that's a solution. I don't care what she says. Really, you got to keep doing it, John. You know how to talk to her. You can do it too and you'll feel good about this. You'll least make some movement or if she won't do it, then you can't stay with her. I just don't want to make it worse than it is. I mean it's not bad now it really is. But because you're walking around, yeah but John you know you're suffering. That's no way to live with someone you're searing a bad, you're not having sex, you're not talking about this huge breach of trust in your marriage that happens several times where you're probably feeling humiliated and your neighbors and you still live there and you're walking around taking the brunt of it every single day and you are

suffering deeply in ways that I don't think you even know yet. I think it's okay if she gets angry right now. Like I feel like, I don't know, John, I feel like, I mean, you get to decide you've been living how you're living, but I think that therapy is not going to, especially with what you're dealing with. Kid, yeah, I got to go to therapy. John, let me know how it goes. I'll be here.

Thank you for calling, John. We're thinking about you. When we're back, I'm talking with singer-songwriter Tom Goss about how he navigated in fidelity and opening up his marriage to his husband. So don't go anywhere. Okay, I'm talking with Tom Goss, singer, songwriter who wrote an entire album about traveling with his husband and a new lover. His music touches on his experience being in an open marriage and when he's learned

navigating this new type of relationship. Yeah, and my husband and I were in a mananglish relationship for 10 years. And it started to be really hard for my husband to, he really needed something different. And it wasn't, you know, it's really easy at this point in time for you, he's later to talk about, oh yeah, let me just have this like nice conversation, but obviously didn't go that easily.

Right, well, didn't he cheat on you? Yeah. Okay, well that's what happened, right? Yeah. Sorry, you're good though. No, I'm good. I love how blunt you were about that. No, it was like the weird. You said it wasn't working from it. I'm like, well, I know that he cheated and then, but the amazing thing is that he cheated, but then you were able to, I'm sure that was painful. Oh, yeah. I mean, my entire world

crumbled. You know, I think it's really interesting to me, you know, because we're told you do two things when somebody, the infidelity is in a relationship. You break up with the person you say fuck you You never talked to them again, you burn all their things, right? We've all seen the movie Yeah, the second thing you do is you forgive them You make all sorts of alt-al-timatums and you put a really tight leash on them and you resent them for the rest of your life Right, these are these are like your two options, not only. I mean, there is a third, I mean, well, maybe there's a fourth because we'll get to your sometimes for people, they can rebuild trust and they get over,

but only if they have intense intense therapy. But we're supposed to, they don't do that. No, absolutely. Or what you've done. Or the same thing, intense intense therapy. And then, you know, being a little more honest about what my husband was struggling with at the time and he was going through all sorts of his own things and this is how it was coming out.

And I know this is going to sound a little bit like victim-shaming, but part of me was like, why am I not in a relationship where my husband and I can have this conversation openly and it doesn't have to be deceptive. Right. And it could be something that's really open and honest and understand. So I went into the open relationship just really supporting him on his journey and really wanting to help him discover what he needed. But I also was a complete rock in my entire world

was falling apart because everything that I believed in, the foundation of that, my life, my art, everything had kind of just crumbled. And so I really needed to go on my own journey to figure out what I needed for me. Because for me, it was like whatever I needed to support the relationship of my husband and when that got pulled away, that was left with almost nothing. Well, you say initially then, so you found out of this in discretion, and then you're like,

okay, well, I get the he has to open it up. And then you try to open it up right away, or you just sort of wait it because people call in all the time. And I think that there's more of an interest now. People are realizing that Madagami isn't for everybody everybody and that open relationships aren't just for sex addicts Sure crazy people or people it's never gonna work because monogamy doesn't work for a lot of people Yeah, so you're a journey to that. It wasn't like he you he had this in discretion You're like sign me up for polyamory or open relations. Yeah, oh no, no, no, no, no, yeah

Yeah, yeah, and you had to then but then you've No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, You did. Yeah, and I was in Catholic seminary. I was a celibate and then I met my husband and he's really the first person I ever dated. So for me, it was also like, who am I as a sexual being? And that was an opportunity for me to go on my own journey and what does sex to me, what is intimacy, what is relationship to me. And I really had to go through a lot. And I'm still going through a lot of trying to figure out

what that is. So how long have you been on this journey? When did this, when did you really get to start doing this? It's a lot of four years. And it was probably a year of it was a lot of me just like breaking, breaking and trying to heal and trying to understand what that meant. And then, you know, even going on a date, we like call them

dates, you know, was hard initially. At first, and there was a lot of shame involved, not only for me to myself, but also Then my husband towards me, which was like, well, I don't understand what's happening, right? Because we're dealing with all these social Constructs of what these things say like we're an open relationship, but does that mean? But you don't have jealousy or yeah, you don't have jealousy You don't have these preconceived notions that have been ingrained in us from every single piece of information We've we've gotten about relationships and society at large for every second of our life. So there

was really a lot of that. And what I found out for myself that, yeah, what you find, I find that emotional intimacy is as important if not more important than physical intimacy for me. Okay. And so for me to be physically intimate with a person, I really want to have an emotional connection. I really want to share that and that led to falling in love for me with somebody who wasn't my husband. And this record really is about that journey. And you really start facing a lot of questions. You know, I keep talking about the societal constructs

for what love is. And when all of a sudden you're in this different relationship, you're realizing like, oh, wait, that's not what's going on. It's like when you come out as gay, you're supposed to be a horrible person and a sinner and all these things and you're like, wait, no, I'm not. You have to keep peeling, baggling, wait.

This doesn't serve me, someone told me this. And you were in the priesthood. Mm-hmm, yeah. I mean, that's crazy to me too. You were in the priesthood. And so of course, you probably thought you were asexual because you're like, not only because of that Well, my also because of the religion being sent to be a priest

It really was about like I'm attracted to Chubby man, right? So it was another social contract thing Like I didn't know that I could be that right like I was I wrestled off through college from showering with 60 guys Every single day. Yeah, and I'm like well, I'm not attracted to them. So I'm not gay. I'm not attracted to women So I'm not straight, but I'm not attracted to them, so I'm not gay. I'm not attracted to women, so I'm not straight. But I wasn't like, I should look at this, you know, the second you saw, wait, let me get this straight. So you're up until what age? Probably, uh, 2020, 23, probably 23.

23 and you're walking down the street. And then all of a sudden you see a chubby guy. It wasn't like that. I fell in love just like, I probably, because you emotionally connected. I emotionally connected and there was a physical attraction to the chubby guy. And then I was like, oh, like, okay, I'm into your belly. Okay, I'm into like these parts of your body that that is supposed to be gross,

but for me, I just like, oh, yeah, I want more of that. Right. I love it. You gave yourself permission. Even though society might be like, that's not how most people love or whatever. You figured it out. Exactly. Then you wrote this album because was it because, society might be like that's not how most people love or whatever you figured it out. Exactly. Then you wrote this album because, was it because, I mean, I would think the best time to create art, IZine, when you're going through turmoil and figuring out who you are. Oh, the song that was coming out of you.

Like yeah, I mean, this, I mean, it was, it's so right from material and we would get into these fights sometimes and some of my newest singles called La Bufordora. And we would get into these fights and he would say something and it would often be like the saddest, hardest thing I've ever heard in my life. You know what I mean? You're talking about what you're talking about. Yeah, when we're in these discussions or in a fight and I'm not really a fight fight,

but I mean sometimes you're just talking. You're being like so honest. And you're... Say things that you think you can't say and then it comes out and then it says you're like... And you're raw like so honest in your you say things that you think you can't say and then it comes out and everybody's open and you're just like I would sometimes just be like Say those words in my head over and over and over again So I could just write them word for word in a song because I'm like well you can't beat that Give me some of the words right now. Yeah, there's a song called Quebec and the chorus is, we were walking down the street in Quebec City

and we were trying to connect, but we were just like struggling and he stopped. My husband can't walk and talk at the same time. He just stops and all of a sudden he's behind me and I'm like, oh, he has something to say. You know what I mean? So he stopped and he just like broke down

in the freezing cold and he said, we are not us. There is another us to us. We are not special. We are no longer special. Straight up. That's the chorus of Quebec word for word. That's amazing.

He's so powerful. I sounds like it's, I wouldn't mind that he stopped it. Because for me, if someone couldn't walk and talk, we'd be done. But if he stopped and then said something super profound, I'd be like, okay, maybe this can work. Wow. And that was his truth. And that work. Wow. And that was his truth.

There is no us, right? So have you found that there's also an us in you? Like, have you bought that us back together? Well, that's not my perspective, right? That's his perspective. So I always felt like there was an us. I've always loved him. The reason that I went on this journey was because I loved him.

And in some ways, I completely sacrificed myself. And everything that I believed in the world to help him on his own journey. Like, if that's in some ways I completely sacrificed myself and everything that I believed in the world to help him on his own journey. Like if that's not love, I don't know what is. Exactly. It's your husband in the same place that he's looking for emotional intimacy as well or for him as it more physical because that could also be another thing you guys got to take on. I mean, yeah, I think, I mean, I think we both like emotional intimacy, like we're both not like anonymous type of people, you know, but I think for me, it's, like we're both not like anonymous type of people. You know, but I think for me,

it's, you know, just to be honest, like I'm better at maintaining relationships from my husband. My husband wants the emotional connection, but then like people kind of annoy him. Like I want to be alone. You know, whereas that's not really me. So how have you guys figured out to work

these boundaries together, wanting different things? Because you've been four years in, you said? So many conversations. Adnazim, right? Like, Adnazim. Yeah. Yeah, almost every day.

And yeah, definitely lots of therapy. I mean, I think I'm really grateful for the infidelity because it really taught me how to communicate better. I'm still horrible sometimes. Don't get me wrong. It's a process. We're always learning. It's a process. We're always learning.

It's a process, but I feel like there's things that my husband could say to me and there's things that I can say to him that we could have never in a million years started to each other before. Okay, so what did you find out? Oh, well, that's a really good question. I mean, I mostly just find out about, you find out about the inner workings of people, right?

Not only from a sexual standpoint, but from an emotional standpoint, from a historical standpoint, about how he's perceived his physicality and his sexuality throughout his life. You know, one of the things that I do a lot, obviously, I've already mentioned, they're like big men. I'm well known for talking about that in my art,

and I made a song called Bears, and I made a song called Round and Other Right Places, and I make these videos. I loved your, we were watching your video. We watched your new videos, and then we watched your video with the interactive one. Interactive video? Oh, click, yeah.

That's brilliant. I'm like, this should have 8 million views. It's true. Okay, we're gonna put it on our show notes right now. So people can go to sectionthemme.com, you gotta check out, you gotta check out Tom Goss' click. That was called in True Road Ending. Yeah, and you choose your own lovers and skies and girls.

And it's all such a shapes and stuff. And dating apps should buy this from you too. Agreed. Yeah, you're hilarious. And I love it. I love watching you. Okay, so anyway. I'm just plugging your shit and interrupting.

No, I can't interrupt you to plug your shit. I appreciate that. And I think part of it, part of the thing that was hard for me initially is that I had spent all this time putting out this energy into the world to uplift men of size and to create art that shows them in a different light than the rest of society shows them. And in that process, I spent that time uplifting my husband, and then all of a sudden my husband at almost 50 years old was feeling sexy and confident for the first time and he wanted to explore that in a way which he didn't feel like

he could before because he had you know issues about his body or issues about his size or issues about how people were seeing him and so it was hard for me because I was like in a way like well I gave you that confidence and you turned it against me. You know what I mean? So you before the incident happened, you were building them up in the relationship, making it feel good. I feel like sexy and then you're like,

you're in a fair, dude, you've been through a lot. But that's okay, I feel like that's okay. I get it, no, what I'm saying is I'm getting your journey, I'm riding with you here, like that's another layer, you keep throwing it down. All the stuff you guys went through. But at some point in time, it has to be less about my hurt. Like I can talk about my hurt all day,

you want it fine, whatever, but what is that accomplished? Like at some point in time, I need to be empathetic to what he's going through and his experience in order to be sensitive to that and honest to that. And I can be honest and we can disagree. But as long as we're both being true to our experiences, I think that's the most important thing. Right. And what I love that you said, which I think a lot of you will don't get, is that for

many people having an affair, like it's the most, like a lot of us think, oh God, I'd be done. And all the stuff would be burned on the sidewalk. Is that for a lot of couples, it actually can be just what they need to bring them closer together. It can actually break through to another level that they never experienced. If they do the work, they stick with it. They go into therapy. So now I'm going to assume that not saying it's perfect, it's always challenging, but that you guys are closer and more intimate.

And in so many ways we're closer, I'm not going to say that this not... I don't think it's perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect in these things that still sometimes are hard for me. Which part, about the open part being open or which parts are? Because people are so curious about how you navigate. How can you see your partner being in love with someone else? Like people are just like there's just no way. Well, I don't have to do that, but my husband has to do that.

And I can't imagine how hard that is. Because he's not in love with anyone else. Because he's not in love with anybody else. And so I think sometimes, you know, he's in the process of struggling with that and working through that. The hardest thing for me, I mean, it took me like a week. It was like, I was just going down that spiral of a week of catching the infidelity, realizing the magnitude of the infidelity, and then like crying a lot. And then you start doing this thing where you're like, well, he said he loves me. And I'm the one for him. And that a da da da.

He said that June, June 22nd, 2011. Was that true? Was this trip? I went on to was a stada da da. And you start going through this all these things. And I think the thing that I realized and what really helped me get to the, to the next level is that all of the good things are true. All of the bad things are true.

Like everything happened. That all can coexist in the same person. And I think that's why I answer questions like this because I think I see the world that way. I don't see myself that way. For me, I'm like, no, you're horrible. You didn't do that math equation, right? You know what I'm like, who cares?

I got it, dude, I get it. I do that as well. So what I want to say that is that two of you right now, so you're dealing with, he is dealing with you being in love with someone else, but how do you feel about him having sex with others? It changes a lot. It kind of depends.

I kind of, you know, oftentimes I think it's really fun. I think it's kind of sexy. And I like the idea of him as like a strong, virile man. You know what I mean? And other men are attracted to him to be hot. Yeah, I don't, you know, we're attracted to different things. So, so we don't really experience these things together. And that that saddens me a little bit. Because you would all, you would, you don't really experience these things together. And that saddens me a little bit.

But, because you would all, you don't experience like this. Yeah, our physical types are so varied. Oh, okay, so you can't have like three sums per once. Yeah, yeah, but sometimes we do a couple swaps, and that's really so fun.

And it's such a wonderful experience, you know, because we're so physically varying people. Right. I know he's not going to listen to this and think, okay, yeah. You still man it me for anything that I'm saying. Oh, because- But this is your life, you wrote songs.

You're so in Tom Goss, your new album is about this. I'm fine with it. It'll be okay. You love doing it. You've been together a long time. But here's the thing, you have an open relationship. Yeah. But you have boundaries.

Can you tell me what some of those boundaries are? I always talk about boundaries in the show, step boundaries, but it'd be good to hear some real life examples. Yeah, you know, so for us, the boundaries really were about, you know, obviously it's being safe. Right. We are obviously each other's primary partners, and that means we engage in sex and intimacy

in a different level than other people, than we do with other people. And so we need to be very careful that we are safe with each other and that we always understand that we're not harming other people. A lot of it's about honesty and just telling people what we're doing. We don't really engage when we're together.

We both travel a lot. Okay. So that kind of makes that piece of it a little easier. That you're traveling. Yeah, or he's traveling around traveling, but when we're together we're together. And so I have a lot of friends that I often, that I also am intimate with,

and they're also friends with him. And they know when we're together we're together. Like if somebody crosses that boundary or somebody, then that's like, no, they need to respect my relationship and they need when we're together, we're together. If somebody crosses that boundary, if somebody, then that's like, no. They need to respect my relationship and they need to respect that my husband is my husband. And that includes my lover. Yeah, so it mostly happens when you guys are

one of you is out of town. Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Because I wouldn't want to be home and have nothing to do with my partners out. Unless I had planted ahead of time. Exactly. Because everyone gets their own rules, I entered.

Everybody has their own rules. And I do think that that would be really hard on me. If I was having like a particularly hard day and the mic was like, oh, I'm gonna go on a date today and I'm just like, I think that's everyone's nightmare. So I think the fact that you explain that boundary like it's when you're out of town

or when you're not, I mean, some couples might be able to handle it, but it sounds like you guys are doing well. Thank you you Tom. How can everyone find you? TomGos music.com or any of the social media is at TomGos music. Okay. Thanks for being here.

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