Sex With Emily - Tell Me What You Want (In Bed) with Dr. Justin Lehmiller

Episode Date: October 27, 2018

On today’s show, Emily is joined by Dr. Justin Lehmiller – a leading expert on human sexuality – to talk about his book, Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How it Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. They discuss sexual fantasies, what they mean, and why it’s totally okay to have them (psst, we all do). Plus, they get into the benefits of sharing your fantasies with your partner, what the top ones are around the U.S., and the difference between men and women – and the similarities, too. Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: Hot Octopuss, Womanizer, Fleshlight, Adam & Eve Follow Emily on all social: @sexwithemily Follow Dr. Lehmiller on Instagram: @justinjlehmiller For more of Dr. Lehmiller, visit: sexandpsychology.com For even more sex advice, tips & tricks, visit: sexwithemily.com   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. On today's show, I'm joined by Dr. Justin Lameller, a leading expert on human sexuality to talk about his book, Tell Me What You Want, the Science of Sexual Desire, and how it can help you improve your sex life. Topics include, why we have sexual fantasies and what they mean, why you're totally normal and it's okay to have them and the benefits of sharing them with a partner. What your fantasies say about your personality, the differences and similarities between men and women, and why it's so much better to talk about or act out our desires than to repress them.

All this and more, thanks for listening. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Betrubized, they call them a lie-gone-day. Hey, Evelyn, you got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken, he thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair stand. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common, though?

What do you mean, like, laundry? It's shrink? Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'm so proud. Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between.

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I'll be making this announcement in the next 10 days so check back you'll be hearing a podcast and today's show I'm really excited so it's all about you and your fantasies so a lot of you ask me about sexual fantasies And it wasn't until I even started studying sex that I realized the importance of fantasies And it wasn't until I even started studying sex that I realized the importance of fantasies. People who fantasize more have healthier, more satisfying sex lives, and we actually, we have them, we require them, but we so often repress them. But why are they so misunderstood if we all have them?

Another interesting thing is the fantasies we have are pretty similar. In fact, there's only like three categories of fantasies. And get this, many of us want to enact them or talk about them, but we can't. Whether it's own shame and guilt or fear of judgment from our partners, we just hold on to them. So that's why I was so excited to have my guests on the show. Dr. Justin Lay Miller is a leading expert on human sexuality and an author. He offers an unprecedented look at sexual fantasy

based on the most comprehensive scientific survey ever undertaken. He looks at what Americans really want when it comes to sex and can we really get what we want. Okay, so you guys, for this study, he interviewed 4,000 Americans from all walks of life answering questions of unusual scope. And they really get into it.

I really love this book because he got so granular on our fantasies. Tell me what you want offers looks into our fantasy worlds, what they reveal about us, help us readers understand their own sexual desires, and how to get them in their relationships. And also, how do we appreciate the desires of our partners when they might be different from our own? The bottom line is when we really understand human sexual desire and why it exists, we can truly experience less anxiety, stress, shame, and judgments around our own fantasies. So when you listen to this interview, you read the book, it's really going to give you that permission. I think a lot of you just want permission to know that we're normal and it's okay to talk about things. So we cover a lot in this interview and I really think it's going to answer a lot of questions you might have and some of you are even thought about, but

once you hear it, you'll be like, oh, that makes sense. Now I get why I fantasize about that or why that triggered me. Here's some things we get into. Sexual fantasies, why we have them and why it's so important to understand them and what they actually are. Differences between men and women and a lot of how we're actually the same. Forget that whole manner for Mars women from Venus stuff. And what's so appealing about BDSM, multiple partners and sexual variety? These are three categories that we fantasize about the most. Ways you can tell your partner about your fantasies, compromises you can make so you can act

on your desires and the health benefits of actually doing so. We also get into open relationships. Dr. Lay Miller has a lot of studies on non-monogamy and open relationships, and also the common misconceptions people have about them. So I really think you're gonna get a lot out of this interview. I certainly did, and I hope you check out his book as well. Tell me what you want, the science of sexual desire,

and how it can help you improve your sex life. So enjoy the show. Dr. Justin Lay it can help you improve your sex life. So enjoy the show. Dr. Justin Laymeller, you're a renowned sex educator and I've been familiar with your work for years. I'm always reading your quotes and your articles, your stories, your books. And I'm curious. So, of all the things you study, you know, sex is this huge swath.

I mean, there's so many places to go deep. And so, today we're talking about your book. Tell me what you want, the science of sexual desire and how it can help you improve your sex life, which I just found absolutely fascinating. I couldn't put it down. But I'm curious, why did it seem so important to go deep on fancies? Like, how did you know like this is the book? Because you did, you know, an impressive study of so many people. So what was that like, that process? Yeah, there were a few reasons I decided to write this book.

I've had an interest in the topic of sexual fantasies for a long time as a sex educator. And I wrote a textbook on human sexuality a couple of years ago where I had to review all the literature on sexual fantasies. And in the process of reading up on what's out there, I just kept coming up with question after question that had never really been answered before.

And so I just started compiling this whole list of questions and decided to conduct this big study to help us learn more about the subject of sexual fantasies. And as I started talking to people about, you know, the study I was planning on doing, people seemed really interested in the subject. And I thought that rather than doing this is a series of academic papers, writing it up as a book for the general public seemed like a good way to go,

because I think a lot of us have these questions and concerns about whether our fantasies are normal and what we should do about them, how to talk about them. So I wanted to kind of give people the tools to be able to answer those questions. Did you get your questions answered? You said there were so many not answered. I feel like I feel like a lot of them weren't answered in this book. Tell me what you found that maybe to be the most fascinating research or things that you were like, I never thought this would be why we found a answer. You know, was there anything that sticks out to you or few things that you were

like, I couldn't believe we found this data. after 4,000 people talking to 4,000 Americans. Yeah, there were a lot of things that surprised me. I think one was, you know, sort of looking at gender and sexual fantasies and finding that women's fantasies were much more adventurous than men's fantasies had much more emotional content in them than gender stereotypes would be just to believe. I also thought it was really interesting to look at the way that people saw themselves in their sexual fantasies. You know, that's not something that's really been explored in previous research.

And I find that most of us are profanicizing about changing ourselves in some way in our sexual fantasies, whether it's changing our body or our personality or our age. And those changes are revealing of aspects of our personality and how we feel about ourselves. More broadly, I find that there are these big connections between people's personalities and sexual histories and what it is that they're fantasizing about. So I thought it was really fascinating how our sexual fantasy seemed to say something

very unique about us, how we feel about ourselves, where we are in our lives at any given moment. Women were more likely to see themselves as the object of desire in their fantasy, whereas men were seeing themselves as acting on their object of desire. Yeah, can you explain that? One thing that sort of revealed this in my data was when I asked people, you know, how important is fantasizing about another specific person to you in terms of, you know, what that does for your arousal level. And I find that men are much more likely to say that having a specific person in mind

is really important for the arousal factor in their fantasies, whereas women were less likely to say that. So for men having a very specific person in mind was important, whereas women must so, because in their fantasies women are more of the seeing themselves as the object of desire and they're a central focus and feature of the fantasies. Yeah, I found that just so interesting that we were like, no, it's okay, whoever it is, it's kind of a blank face. I've heard that from women too.

Like, I don't really know. It was a combination of people, but we were on the beach. And it was that their waves are rolling in, but I don't know who was there, but it's just that location felt. So I thought that was just so, that was really interesting. Why are these fantasies so important? Before you answer that. So on my show, I've been doing this for 13 years, and I get emails all the time, right? Who want to know? And overall, let's just say most questions, which you could probably

grease. Am I normal? People want to like, is it okay? That sometimes I want sex with someone else besides my partner. Is it okay? That I masturbate, you know, to something people just want to know if they're normal. So this breaks it down. I think there's so much misunderstood about fantasies, and there is so much shame around it. There's so much, you know, trauma, and people just don't want to share it. What I love about this is you really talk about the importance of fantasy, and that it's actually just generally that it's an important part of being healthy sexually. Exactly.

And I think, you know, studying fantasies is important for a lot of reasons. One is exactly what you just said about people are carrying around a lot of guilt and shame and embarrassment. And by helping to normalize our fantasies, we can make it easier for people to talk about them with their partners and maybe even hack upon some of them. And that can help us to achieve more satisfying relationships

and sex lives. But studying our fantasies is also really interesting too just to help us better understand ourselves. I think our fantasies in a lot of ways are therapeutic. They're ways that we sort of try to deal with issues that we're facing in our lives. And our fantasies, it seems they change as we age and as our psychological needs are changing, our fantasies change to reflect those needs.

So our fantasies just tell us something important about who we are. So why is it really important to kind of act on our fantasies and not repressive and not decide like, not decide like, I've got this fantasy but I don't want to tell anyone like, so why is it important for us to understand this and to act on? So we know there's a lot of research in social psychology showing that when people try to suppress uncomfortable thoughts or thoughts they don't want to have that doesn't turn out well and it ends up creating this sort of obsessive preoccupation where you end up thinking about it even more, and that becomes distressing and can be harmful to your mental health. So this is true, whether it's a sexual thought

or non-sexual, suppressing it is in a healthy way of dealing with it. Instead, by coming to terms with our fantasies, sharing them with our partners and acting on some of them, the ones that are safe, sane, and consensual. We have the potential to become closer to our partners by, you know, revealing these desires that we've never shared with anyone else before.

We also have the potential to amp up our arousal in ways that we may have never experienced before. So it can really help lay the basis for more satisfying and passionate sexual and romantic relationships. And I love it the book that you really give that permission to people. Like you really are like it's okay. Like we like first let's figure out what they are. Here's what I love how you break it down because we could probably start there. It's like what are the common types of fantasies? And then we can get into like how how we can kind of figure out what our own are and why it's okay. So what So you found like, I know there was three categories in seven general fantasies. So whatever is easier here, there's so many things talked about.

There's so many things talked about. There's so many. There were three categories of fantasies that almost everyone reported having. These were multi-partner sex. So that's having sex with multiple people at the same time. Most commonly in the form of a threesome, but some people are fantasizing about larger groups than that. And this is something that 80, 90% of men and women reported having fantasized about before.

And for many people, it was their favorite fantasy of all time. The second category that was really popular was what I termed power control and rough sex. So that was really more about general themes of BDSM. And that can range from mild to wild. But again, this was something that the vast majority of people across gender, sexual orientation reported having fantasized about before.

And then the other really big category was what I call novelty, adventure, and variety, which is about taking your sex life and just new and interesting directions for you, mixing it up in some way, such as trying a new position, having sex in a new setting, just aiming up that novelty factor in some way. It's so interesting, because I just feel like this

has given so much permission because we hear all the time, like, I so much want couples to understand, I'm people to understand, this is going to happen in your relationship, it's gonna get dull over time, things are gonna happen, and you're gonna want that variety. So to see that people are actually fantasizing about it in a healthy way, maybe you're repressing it, I'd love that you break this all down

and give people permission. I love what you did with BDSM, because BDSM is kind of a rough sex. You know, it's kind of played throughout the book and I found you had some interesting points there about that a lot of time for people who are not as focused maybe or maybe have more, it can be actually a practice that takes us out of our head

because we're so distracted about sex. We obsess about other things, am I doing it right? And being involved in like a power play, it kind of kind of quills that. Is that? Right. I thought that that makes so much sense. I thought it would be a peel of BDSM is that it can create the state of what some researchers

refer to as mindfulness, or it sort of brings you into the here and now. It sort of centers you, it takes you out of your head. And I think ultimately that's what a lot of us are looking for in our sexual fantasies is, you know, we want to escape all of the insecurities, anxieties, and distractions that formally plague us when we start thinking about sex, and it might interfere with our actual sexual enjoyment. So by fantasizing about something that can help

to really amp up the arousal level and put us in the moment We can actually cope with insecurities in a way that we might otherwise have a really difficult time dealing with Right, I think that's it's so true. That was just an interesting angle to it I mean, I thought that in my head I'm like that makes so much sense but to see this in your research was Fascinating and then also the thing about BDSM, I thought was interesting as obviously more women want to be submissive in the BDSM fantasy.

I think that BDSM could be very misunderstood, right? Like 50 Shades of Grey, poorly written book, a lot of people are like, oh my God, I couldn't get past the grammar, but when we get into it, we know why. It was a huge book forever, internationally. But it's interesting because you're like, well, I don't want to be beaten, like that would really, you know, pain. That doesn't interesting to me. But a lot of the women

actually said, I want it to be restrained, but I don't necessarily want pain. Like, I don't want to be hurt too much. And I thought that was an interesting distinction to make because people are still, a lot of people are still very confused by what that actually means. Right. And that's something that can vary from, from one person to the next. Right, and that's something that can vary from one person to the next, you know, sort of pain or, you know, domination and submission within very controlled limits. And people were very explicit about that when describing these fantasies. It's sort of just the right amount. And that's one of the things that I think can make this fantasy a little bit challenging

for people to act out is to sort of communicate to your partner exactly what your comfort level and boundaries are. And that's why it's so important if you're thinking about acting on your fantasies, no matter what they are, that you have excellent sexual communication with your partner to ensure that those boundaries are very clear cut and spelled out, and so that they know them in our respectful of them. Yeah, I love that you really break it down. I'm like, okay, so because here's how you figure out your fantasies are and then here's how you actually go about communicating about your fantasies. And so I'm curious though with this one, I think that's a really interesting question

of people. I was like, I get it. I know my fantasy, but what's that next step? Like how do I actually get into this with my partner? Because even BDSM, they might say, I want you to time me up and then they're part of the, I don't know what that means, I don't know how to do it. So how do you kind of get people over that threshold? Yeah, it's a practice. Yeah, right? It starts first with,

sort of just getting comfortable, communicating about your desires with your partner. So you have to establish that level of sexual communication up front. And you can do this in a lot of different ways, but just start to have conversations about what it is that turns you on. And then it's really taking baby steps from there. This can involve maybe doing a little bit of background research, you know, and it's something like BDSM. Maybe reading up on, you know, BDSM guidebooks, but being away from 50 shades, you know, and other sort of fictionalized accounts that aren't meant to be a healthy guide. Exactly, that's

exactly. Right. What do you recommend? Is there a good book or what's your favorite book on it? Or your favorite way of people to learn? Because I get asked this a lot. I just thought, you know, you have a place to go. In terms of BDSM guide books in particular, I don't have one that's immediately coming to mind. I'm just curious if you have anything. There is one that I do recommend for people with multi-partner fans. Yeah, tell me. That's my next question. Let's talk about that. monogamy. That's my next question. Let's talk about that. Perfect. So it's a book called The Ethical Slut. Oh yeah. You know, it's sort of this guide book that introduces people to different types of relationships and kind of some of the considerations they might need to keep in mind. There are actually lots of really good guide books for people who are interested

in exploring monogamy. Another one is called opening up that I know many of my sex therapists recommend to clients. Tristan, Tehramino, that's a great book. Yes, I agree. So let's talk about non-monogamy and opening up in relationships because tell me what you found in your studies in your research here. Because I've been talking about this for years that people are so free to tear everything apart, but you actually had some people who were like we've been doing it and it works and it's healthy and I love that research. I

love hearing about that, you know, because I think it is. I think that people are so terrified and you had some good good research in there about it. Yeah and that's actually one of the things that I found really surprising was when I looked at you know people who had acted out their sexual fantasies, what were their rates of success? And I found that for people who were acting on consensual non-monochemal fantasies, meaning they're having some type of open relationship, or they're swinging, or cuckolding, or practicing polyamory, the vast majority of those people reported positive experiences that ended up improving their relationship.

So it was actually somewhere around 90% or so people who had acted on their non-monogamy fantasies reported those very positive experiences. There is an interesting distinction though between these sort of open-village-in-shape type fantasies in people who have the multi-partner or groups' fantasies. Right. The group fantasies were less likely to turn out well. So, you know, when you're trying to manage multiple people in a group at the same time, that just seems to be a more complex thing

for people to navigate. I think because many of us just don't have a script for how a group sex scenario is going to be. Exactly. We're trying to figure out, I'm even like group dinners and I don't know who's coming. Like group sex would be like exotic I'm like, oh my god, who are these people? I got that I found that to be it

Yeah, I grew that distinction. I was like that is fascinating and it makes so much sense I thought I was also interested you talk about how the whole men are from Mars women are from Venus in the 90s I mean, I remember that like it was you know It's huge people are still like you know men are from Mars women are from Venus But I think it's so much it's so far from the truth, right? So you kind of talk about that we have more in common than we think, sexually. Absolutely. Yeah.

And, you know, certainly there are some gender differences when it comes to the, you know, how often men have certain fantasies and women have certain fantasies. But for the most part, we're all fantasizing about the same sorts of things. And I think that when you're talking about heterosexual couples and relationships, that's a good thing in the sense that we have a lot more in common than we might think we do. So that suggests that there might be lots of potentially unexplored ways you and your partner could go about taking your sex life in an exciting direction.

Right. Exactly. Because you just don't know until you try. And I found it was interesting too that a lot of people say that they haven't talked to their partner yet, but they think they're going to be okay about it. They think they think my partner will accept me, but I partner accept this, but we just can't like rip the bandit off and say, babe, let's talk about our sex life. And it's just so hard to get there.

And even though the data's showing, it's gonna be good, which is why I think everyone should check out your book, tell me what you want. I thought the signs of sexual desire, how can you help improve your sex life, like giving it just gives permission. So. Right, and I think that, you know,

the fact that people are saying, I think my partner would be okay with this, but I can't bring myself to tell them, really speaks to the amount of shame and guilt that a lot of us have about our sexual fantasies and desires and just the general discomfort we have when it comes to talking about sex because we do a very poor job, especially in the United States, in terms of sex education and teaching people how to communicate about sex. The only communications skill we tend to teach people is just say no.

And that's not a very valuable resource when it comes to, you know, having a healthy sex life with the romantic partner. How do you communicate about desire if you've never been taught how to do that? And you have all of this shame you're carrying around. Exactly. We've never been taught anything. So how are we ever going to broach this thing of fantasies which are still really misunderstood? I hope you're enjoying this interview with Dr. Justin Laymeller. We're gonna take a quick break and we come back more on sexual fantasies. So let's talk about the health of sharing fantasies. Let's also talk about does does everyone have, first of all, why do we have these fantasies? Does everyone have them?

Like, I feel like I had to learn to have fantasies. But people, you know, it's like, oh God, I should, you know, I think I was really anxious growing up, I didn't have them, so I'm like, let me try to get, but why do we have them, really, and where do they come from? So almost everyone has sexual fantasies. And in my work, I found that it was about 97, 98% of people

who reported having them. And that's consistent with what we see in the broader research on sex fantasies. In terms of why we have them, there are a lot of different reasons. Our fantasies most obviously are a tool that we use to increase a rousal. So we might use it while we're

masturbating or during a part-chard activity. We might use our fantasy to maintain a higher rousal level. But we also use our fantasies for psychological escape, you know, for distraction. Just give us something else to focus on. So sometimes people fantasize simply because they're bored and they want something to do. So we fantasize for a number of different reasons. I talk about this a bit in the book, but they seem to be part of a healthy sex life in relationship. Right. I guess from what we're listening, like if you're thinking about it, kind of build it

out with your partner, talk about it, think about what you're masturbating, kind of think about what those themes are, and then, you know, think about like what you'd like to neck, because there are fantasies that we don't want to happen, that we wouldn't actually like to happen in real life. But even with those, if you share with your partner different bits and pieces, you can kind of piece together, create your own fantasies together. Like if your partner wants a threesome and you don't, right, you could watch threesome porn, you could talk through it, dirty talk. I mean, there's other ways, it just because,

yeah, I don't want people to be shut down by their fantasy knowing that we could kind of compromise with your partner and maybe make a new fantasy together. Right. And I think that's, you know, that's a key point is that there's a distinction between its actual fantasy and its actual desire. Right. You can fantasize about something and that thought of it really turns you on, but maybe you don't actually want to do it, and that's fine. But also, there may be cases where you have a fantasy that is a desire, but your partner doesn't share that desire. And I think you give great suggestions for kind of, you know, alternative ways you can fulfill that fantasy. It's also good to know that most of us have multiple different fantasies. And so if you and your partner are in a match on one of them, odds are there's probably

some other fantasy where you are a match and that you can potentially find fulfillment by acting on that instead. So there are all kinds of ways you can go when you start sharing your fantasies with your partner. What is it about our brains, though? We think we have to hide our fantasies, right? Because of guilt or shame or trauma. And how do we get past these only self-judgments

if he were listening going, oh yeah, that sounds great for everyone else, but there's no way I can tell my partner. She's gonna leave me here. He's gonna like, you know, one day we're gonna have sex again. Like how do we? Like what is that personal journey to accepting ourselves?

Because that's kind of what has happened first. Yeah, there's a couple parts to it. One is you have to feel good about yourself first before you can go sharing your fantasies and desires with your partner. So part of this is just sort of the process of self-acceptance. And that's something that I try to do in the book,

by, as you say, giving permission to say, it's if you have these fantasies because most other people do too. In fact, sex therapists find often that just giving their clients permission is enough to solve a lot of sexual problems. So starting there with that self-acceptance is key. And then from there, it's again building that communication with your partner and taking baby steps, you know. If your fantasy is group sex, you know, maybe you don't want to come out and lead with that because it can make some people feel threatened if you're talking about opening up your relationship or adding new partners into the mix.

So think of this as when you're sharing fantasies, it's a self disclosure process where you start low, go slow, and gradually build up the intensity over time. So work up to it. Exactly. Don't just say, hey, babe, gang-bang fantasy, Saturday night. No, right? You've got to be like, so not the best idea. Like, let's kind of like, let's talk about our sex life. Like, let's talk about fantasies together and then, yes, build up. I think you're, that's great advice. So I have a question for you about the sexual imprinting theory about men at a young age, how there's a certain period where their hormones are

surging and their teens and that they find it harder, you say, to kind of develop beyond that, some men, beyond that imprinting phase. Can you talk about that? Yeah, so this is a theory that some psychologists believe might explain why men seem to have somewhat more fixed sexuality than women in the sense that once they develop a specific interest, it's hard for it to change,

and it's hard for them to develop and learn new interests. So I should say that not everyone buys into this idea and this is not to say that every man has a fixed sexuality to others, a man who are very fluid, inflexible, and things are changing, their desires are changing throughout their lives. But the basic idea is sort of that it seems that something is going on with some people that just makes it hard for them to develop new sexual interests as they get older. It could be related to hormone levels and something that's happening in the brain. We don't fully understand it.

But can they, like, is there a way to can you reprogram your brain if it almost becomes a fetish? Let's say you're always fantasizing about thresomes, but you literally can't have set. You can't not do that. Like, can you learn tactics to kind of undo that? Yeah, so that's where it gets really challenging is can you unlearn a sexual interest that maybe you don't want anymore or maybe you just want to expand and try and develop more interest that you and your partner have in common. This is a kind of tough and challenging thing.

We do know, though, that people can develop new interests. There's some really fascinating research showing that you can actually condition people in a lab setting to develop kinks and fetishes. So if you pair a sexually browsing stimulus with a neutral one, so for example, if you show men images of boots, just before you show them images of nude women, sexual men here, there's men over

time when you pair those, similarly, will eventually start to show a rouse on response to the boot alone. And we have studies in data demonstrating this. So, you know, there are ways that you can learn new interests if you take these sort of basic conditioning processes and psychologists. That's so interesting.

Yeah, because, you know, if people are just tormented, they're like, I can't get out of it. I won't expand my sexual horizons, but all I can do is think about a show, you know? So, what do our sexual fantasies say about our personalities? Or what can our personalities tell us about our fantasies? I love how you break this all down in the book. People should read this because you're like,

oh, no, it's very comforting, too. You're like, now I get it. You know, I was raised in this certain environment with my parents, or I had sexual trauma even, or I, my first sexual experience, I mean, went a certain environment with my parents or I had sexual trauma even or I my first sexual Experience means when when to certain way and all these things you're in your 15 questions the way you answer them Can really indicate why you are who you are why you fantasize the way you do or why you have certain desires Yeah, and that's what I was getting back to earlier

This is that our fantasies are this unique reflection of who we are and where we are in our lives right now. And so our personalities contribute to that, our sexual histories and early sexual experiences, and also our age and all these things come together. I think the personality findings are among the most interesting. Yeah, let's talk about that. You're from this fascinating. Okay.

Yeah, if you look at what's called the big five theory of personality, the idea here is that everybody's personality can be broken down into these five basic factors. One of them is openness to experience, which basically means you like to try new things. And if you're someone who is high in openness in real life, you're pretty high in openness in your second disease. Right. Yeah. someone who is high in openness and real life, you're pretty high in openness in your second disease, or you're wanting to try all kinds of new things. If you're high in the trait of agreeableness, which is having a lot of care and concern for others, in your sex fantasies, you have a lot more focus on your partner's pleasure. And if you're

somebody who's high in the trait of conscientiousness, where you're very detail oriented in the real world, you're detail oriented in your fantasies, and you pay more attention to the setting and so forth. And if you're somebody who is high in neuroticism, where you get stressed out very easily, you tend to have more calming, emotional content in your sexual fantasies. And also if you're someone who's high in extroversion, meaning you're really outgoing and sociable in real life,

you tend to want to have an outgoing sex life in your fantasies with multi-partner and non-monogamy fantasies. So we very much make our fantasies about ourselves. Right, right, which makes total sense. I think again, reading through this book and answering these questions for yourself can give people so much comfort. I feel like you're like, you're like, oh, I get it. You know, you're like, why. It's just kind of like this light goes off. But by reading this, I just love that it gives people so many great tools to kind of feel that acceptance and then just so they can go out and have their group sex.

So a question for you about the difference between, you spend a lot of time in the difference between sexual orientation and sexual flexibility. And that women have, seem to have greater sexual flexibility than men, which is kind of, you know, like the Kinsey scale, we kind of know women sort of seem to be more flexible. We're not talking about, that's all orientation, but just in what they're gonna try.

So can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about that for our listeners? Yeah, so women seem to be somewhat more flexible with regard to the gender of their partners. So women are more likely to have same sex fantasies than men. But men are flexible in other ways. So for example, men are more flexible when it comes to sort of playing with their gender role and expression.

So for example, men have more cross-dressing fantasies. They're more likely to fantasize about being in the body of the other sex or having sex with a transgender partner. So, we see that many women both have flexibility, but it comes out in sort of somewhat different ways in their sexual fantasies, which I think is really fascinating. Yeah, I thought that was fascinating, too. Let's talk about, too, now. Because we talk about the cross-dressing.

There were certain people like if they were like your religious background and also Democrat versus Republican, the fantasies too. Right. We're not more likely to cross-dress on one side or something. So there were a lot of interesting connections between our political affiliations and our sexual fantasy. Yes. There was one with cross-dressing gender-bending fantasies, but I suspect that might be driven

personally by people who are more gender-fluid to begin with, might be more drawn to the Democratic Party because it's more tolerant of gender diversity. So I don't know how meaningful that association is, but some of the things I did find that were really interesting about politics, were that Republicans had a lot more of the taboo interests across the board. They were fantasizing more about orgies and infidelity and exhibitionism, voyeurism. Almost any taboo you can think of, Republicans are more like a fantasize about, whereas Democrats are more likely to fantasize about BDSM and about passion and romance sort of scenarios.

So there were some interesting political differences there that I thought. I thought that was very interesting and it kind of was aligned to what we've learned on the show here. So let's talk about taboo for a minute because this might seem very basic, but I want to understand this and for my listeners, we always say, well, people love anal because it's taboo or we love anything that's taboo. Voyeurism, exhibitions, if anything that's just sort of outside, you know, that's not missionary and doggie style, can you explain this though really like psychologically why we are so drawn

to these taboos? Yeah the appeal of the taboo stems largely from this psychological theory called reactants which is basically meaning that whenever we're told we can't do something it just makes us want to do it more because when we perceive our personal freedoms as threatened we sort of react we we rebel. And, you know, we see this all the time in our lives. And in fact, this is something a lot of us know as reverse psychology. You know, when you tell people you can't do something, it makes them want to do it even more.

That's just from the characteristic of human nature. And it seems to be true sexually. Yeah. You know, that when our sexual freedom is threatened we we respond sort of by saying okay Well, I'm gonna want that even more exactly. Yeah, I mean it makes sense when you say that love It's like oh, but why would I want that? Yeah, you're right. Wait. You tell me know. Yeah, I'm gonna want to have a anal or whatever I will want to do whatever it is whatever their person what are there big? Yeah, whatever their fantasies are

So we know now right most porn is made for men by men right the mail gaze do you believe if there was more porn made by women for women that women will watch just as much porn as men i don't know if they would watch just as much but i believe they would probably watch more uh... then they do now you know it's interesting when interesting when you look at porn research, you know, you see exactly what you're talking about, which is that the current crop of porn that's made seems to be more appealing to men.

And so that leads women to tend to gravitate toward other means of sexual fulfillment. And I think that's sort of fed into this broader perception that women are less visually aroused than men are. But I know a lot of researchers who don't believe that's the case. And in fact, when they show women in a lab setting pornography, they're showing high levels of general arousal. So it's not necessarily the case that women are less visually aroused. I think it's just so far we haven't had enough visual content there. Right.

It's appealing to women. And then there's also been sort of more shame and stigma attached to women seeking out sexual material than men. We expect that men are going to do that, but not women. Exactly. I think if the social scripts change, we might see women like- I think so too, because women look it up and they're like, this isn't appealing to me. Like, I'm not interested in what's happening on the screen.

So if there's more right for women or for everyone else, like, right, it just seems like it's a very specific group that all this porn is made for. What if someone has like a darker fantasy though? Like what about these fantasies that were like, it's just, you know, they feel like it's dark in their shame. Like, what do you tell them? What does that tell them?

Like a master in slave, right? Or a, or like a really just wanting to be hurt and abused or, you know, things like that. Like, what, what kind of work do they have to do in that first? Like, it could tie into some psychological trauma or just abuse. Yeah. So I do find that some people who have a history of sexual victimization do have fantasies about very extreme forms of BDSM. I want to be very clear that this is the small link and not everybody who has these fantasies has a history of sexual trauma or victimization.

But for some people that link is there. And I think that suggests that maybe the fantasies are a way that people are sort of coming to terms with the previous trauma that they've experienced. So again, our fantasies can be therapeutic in some ways. And we see that people cope with it in different ways. So some people with a history of victimization may have fantasies about having a lot of reassurance in validation.

They're looking for calming emotional content. Whereas others, you know, are taking their fantasy off in a very different direction than that, where maybe the fantasy is totally emotionless and they're disconnecting from the experience dissociating almost. So that's another way that I think our fantasies are really fascinating. Right. I think so too. And I think it's good to know that a lot of women who feel guilt around having, whether they've been traumatized or not, and I want to talk about this, the rate, the quote, rate fantasy, or being taken, like, you know, you're desired so intensely

that someone just has to have you. So the first point of that is there are people who have actually been raped or had trauma, and they can eroticize it in a healthy way. That can take some work, but I think they might have these fantasies and they feel really it's just like through somatic therapy and stuff that I've heard about that people can actually have a healthier connection even if they do have a fantasize about what they're, you can eroticize it in a healthy way, right? There's also a healthy and unhealthy ways. Right.

Yeah, and I think, you know, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to deal with this as you were saying. And I think it's really important when people are talking about a force of sex fantasy. It's to sort of take that rape term out of it. I know, I agree. You know, it bears no resemblance to a real world rape. And I think that that leads a lot of people to feel more guilt about these fantasies based on the way that they're labeling it. So when it's a fantasy, it's something where you're in total and complete control of

that scenario. So it's bears no resemblance to a real-world. Exactly. That is such a great distinction. I'm so glad you said that. Can you just explain the forced sex fantasy that so many people have and why? If they haven't been promised, I even, for example, like, what's so common and we have so much guilt around it.

Can you explain where that comes from? Yeah, so people very commonly fantasize about being taken against their will. And in fact, this is not something that's unique to women. I found about the thirds of women reported having this fantasy before, but more than half of the men reported fantasies about, you know, a partner taking them against their will as well. So this cuts across

gender lines, but it's going more common in women. But I think that this fantasy, most of the time, stems from, you know, sort of broader interest in BDSM, that most people seem to have, where it's sort of a variant on dominant submission play, maybe sometimes put an element of massacres and mixed in. But whatever it is that leads us to want BDSM is sort of, I think, what is driving a lot of this interest in simulated forced sex that occurs within, you know, in the fantasy this is a very consensual activity. It's consensual, non-consensual activity. Exactly.

Exactly. But it's true though, BDSM comes up everywhere, and there's so many different ways to look at it. So I love how you break that down for people who are like, oh, it doesn't just have to look this way. We don't need a red room of pain. We're not Christian gray. That's fine.

You can create your own way of being dominant and submissive. So you talk about how sexual disorders are psychological and not too much physiological. And let's talk about that. Sure. And that's a big question. Right. We can trace back to masters in Johnson

because they were really the pioneers of sex therapy in the United States. And one of their observations was really that, most sexual disorders have psychological causes and that you can solve a lot of them just by, you know, through some sort of behavioral treatment with the client rather than tinkering with their actual biology.

And I think that this is something that's gotten lost in recent years. People have forgotten about this. And increasingly, anytime we have a sex problem, we just want to take a pill. We want our Viagra or our Flip Answerin or whatever drug it is to solve our problem. But unfortunately, those drugs don't fix

the underlying psychological issues that are creating a lot of these sexual problems and a lot of them can be solved just by having better communication with your partner and getting rid of that sex shame. Exactly. And it just starts with the talk. If people are ready to communicate with a partner, but they want to talk to a therapist about this, to kind of figure it out, would you suggest like a sex therapy or for trauma,

like what do you think about EMDR or Are there practices that you have found do you really useful with helping people through sexual challenges? So that's getting a little bit beyond you know kind of what I do. So I am not actually a sex therapist. Right. I trained as a social psychologist, I'm a researcher and so I don't actually practice therapy on the front lines. So, I can't speak as much to which therapies are most or least effective, but what I would

refer people to if they have sexual issues where they're looking for help is to try to find a therapist who is certified through this group called ASACT, an acronym for the American Association of Sexuality Counselors, Educators, and Therapists. Kind of a mouthful. I know, ASACT, yes, absolutely. Yeah. But yeah, they're a great group. You can go to their website and find a therapist that's

in your area. And if they're certified by this group, odds are that, you know, they're going to have the right tools in training to help you. Okay, thank you, very helpful. You've been working at the Kinsey Institute for how long now? You've been doing this for a long time. Yeah, so I've been a sex researcher for the last 10 years, and I've been with Kinsey for the last couple of years.

And you know, what initially got me into it was in graduate school. I was a teaching assistant for a human sexuality course. And that course just opened my eyes to the whole world of sex research. You know, I didn't even know it existed before then. But, you know, that's what sort of stimulated my initial interest. And ever since then, I've been studying, researching, writing, talking about sex every day. And my job very much now is, you now is kind of being a communicator, a translator of science for the public,

because I don't think we have enough of us who are doing that and giving people to scientifically-based information that they want and deserve. Yeah, they're really not. And you're doing such great, you're doing such great work for people here, I think, especially in this book. The book just came out right? It came out this summer. Okay. The summer. So what's the response been like?

Really I want to ask like what the most surprising thing that you kind of talked about is openly what the top of the show What was the most surprising thing that you found in here that you were like? There's no way. I can't believe this happened You mean the most surprising Survey yeah, I Mean there's from the survey. Yeah. I mean, there are a couple of things. I know we sort of covered this ground a little bit, but some of them were some of the findings that were inconsistent with previous research.

So one was, you know, I found a link between previous sexual victimization and having fantasies about BDSM and that's not something that has popped out in the literature before and people have always said that this is a myth but I find that there does seem to be something to it. It's a very small association but you know to me that was very surprising because it was just inconsistent with the previous research. I know that you've been part of studies surrounding open relationships and polyamory, right?

And so what do you think are the biggest misconceptions that people have about these kind of relationships? There's so many. I know exactly, right. But you're the researcher scientist. I just tell you all the time, like it's a lot, people like it works. It can be healthy, you know?

And so you've done the research, so. Yeah, and I think one of the big ones is that, you know, people who open up their relationship in any way, it means that, you know, their relationship is bad and that, you know, they're only opening it up to try and save it. And, you know, that's not the case. We see that people can have consensually

non-monogamous relationships and be very happy and healthy and satisfied. And just because you're maybe having multiple sexual or romantic partners, that doesn't mean that you're going to be any less into or less attracted to one of your other partners. In fact, we see that having multi-partner relationships, that can actually strengthen all of the relationships you have

because you're getting your needs fulfilled in different places. So you're not putting all of that pressure on one person to meet every single need that you have. So I think there are some unique benefits of consensual non-monogamy that are often unrecognized or unrealized. I think that are some unique benefits of consensual non-monogamy that are often unrecognized or unrealized.

I think that's such a good thing. Exactly what it is. Like who made up this notion that we have should be with one person for the rest of our life. It's going to take care of every single need. I mean, it does absolutely make sense. Actually, you know, when people give themselves permission, and a great communication, it can work.

But what I also like is like the people who do engage in more open relationships are non-inogamy that they take that into the relationships that becomes their own dirty talk, like talking about their previous past partners or something they did the night before, it's a big part of it for a lot of couples. Or swingers are just talking about what happened. People think, oh my god, I couldn't imagine sleeping with them, sleeping with someone else, letting my partner and letting my partner know what happened,

but really this can be really hot fuel for people to kind of spice things up. Right, and I think one of the concerns that a lot of people have is that jealousy is gonna set in. But for a lot of people who are practicing intentional monogamy, we see that they don't really experience jealousy with their partners, and instead many of them experience

this emotion called compersion where, you know, seeing their partner happy or hearing about their partner's pleasure makes you happy rather than making you feel threatened. I think another sort of misconception people have is that if you're in an open relationship that you're going to have all kinds of STDs and you know that this is really risky for your health. And I did a study a couple of years ago where I compared STD rates for people who were consensually now monogamous to people who were supposedly in monogamous relationships and found that the rates of STDs didn't differ, which I thought was really fascinating. That is fascinating. Yeah. It's explained by the fact that infidelity occurs very often

in monogamous relationships. And infidelity is actually a really high risk behavior. Because when people cheat on their partner, they're usually not planning on it. So they're not prepared. They don't practice safe sex. And then they don't tell their partner about it. So their partner doesn't find out.

And then they're not having sex with their primary partner, and then they're spreading the STD and no one's getting tested. And, you know, infidelity is very risky, but for people who practice consensual nomenogamy, they tend to be much more communicative about STDs and testing and take more health precautions. It's so true. And then, yeah, it's like a commitment to your partner in your, oh, consensual nomadogmus, what you will use condoms that you will be respectful.

So that makes that makes so much sense. Thank you so much. Dr. Lamar, Justin Lamar, this is, I love your book. I love all of your work. I've been following you for years. So I'm so happy to talk to you. Thank you for this interview. Do you have anything else coming up?

I'm working to promote all of your stuff here, but anything else you'd like to share? You know, I also run a blog called Sex and Psychology at SexandCycology.com. I've been running it for the last seven years, and I blog about the latest sex research several times a week. I'm also starting to do more public speaking, going around the country, talking about the science of sex and relationship. So happy to have people come out and see me and all that information. That's great. Okay, good.

Well, I'd love to see if you come to Los Angeles. I'd love to meet you in person. That would be great. Yeah. I think we're planning an event in LA. It'll probably be early next year, but I'll definitely let you know. Okay, good. I would love to be there.

And thank you for all this. Thank you, Justin Laymiller. Tell me what you want. The science of sexual desire and how it can help you improve your sex life. Thank you so much for your time and I look forward to meeting you and keep up the great work. Thanks, it was great to talk to you, Emily. I know, really. Okay, have a great day. Thanks. Okay, guys, um, find them on Twitter at Justin Laymiller, that's L-E-H-M-I-L-L-E-R, or on Instagram, at Justin J. Laymiller. Check out his awesome website,

sexandpsychology.com. Tell me what you thought of the interview. I'd love to hear you can send us an email, feedback at sexwithendly.com, or hit me up in social media. We always post it on Instagram and Twitter. I wanna know what you think. Thanks everyone for listening,

and thank you to my amazing team, Ken, Sarah, producer, Jamie, and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedback at sexwithamily.com.