Sex With Emily - The Gottmans on Compatability, Conflict & Conversation

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

No one goes to relationship school, so Dr. John & Julie Gottman created the Gottman Institute to find out what makes relationships work. As today’s guests (and partners for over 30 years), the Gottmans talk about their iconic research, including the myth of compatibility, the four behaviors that tank a relationship, and what is UP with pheromones and attraction. Yep: we’re talking t-shirt smell test.We’re also taking a research-based approach to conflict, and finding out how curiosity and conversation can help you navigate it. Finally, we discuss the Gottmans’ book Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love and take your Instagram questions about vulnerability, attraction, and how to stay sexually connected -- even when you’re exhausted.For more information about Drs John and Julie Gottman, visit: gottman.comShow Notes:Book: For Yourself: The Fulfillment of Female Sexuality by Lonnie BarbachApp: Gottman Card DecksFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

No, we found in a very large study we did that 40,000 gay lesbians and heterosexual couples, 80% of them said that fun had come to die in their relationship. People stopped really romancing one another, they stopped playing together and having fun and really having an erotic life with one another. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Amali and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. No one goes to relationship school. So Dr. John and Julie Gottman created the Gottman Institute to find out what makes relationships work.

As today's guests and partners for over 30 years, the Gottman's talk about their iconic research, including the myth of compatibility, the four behaviors that tank a relationship, and what is up with Fairmones and attraction. Finally, we discussed the Gottmann's book, Eight Dates, Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, Intensions with Emily. For each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. So what I mean is when you're listening, what do you want to get out of this episode?

Well, my intention was easy. I couldn't wait to introduce you to the revolutionary work of Dr. Jordan Julie Gottman. So you can use their groundbreaking research and apply it to your own relationships. Please rate and review sex with Emily wherever you're listening. It helps people find the show, and so more people can just prioritize their pleasure. Also, check out a new article, Nine Books for a Super Sexy Fall. If you want to ask me a question, just call my hotline.

It's 559 TalkSex or 559 825 5739 or leave me your questions at sexwithemily.com slash Ask Emily. All right, everyone. Enjoy this episode. Today, my guests are doctors John and Julie Gottman. They are the founders of the Gottman Institute and have been married for over 33 years. Dr. John Gottman is world renowned for his work on marriage and incredibly accurate divorce prediction. He's conducted more than 40 years of break the research with thousands of couples and is the author and co-author of more than 40 books, including the best-selling,

the seven principles for making marriages work. Dr. Julie Gottman is the clinical supervisor for the couples together against violence study, the co-creator of the immensely popular, the art and science of love weekend workshops for couples, and co-design the National Clinical Training Program in Gottman Couples Therapy. She has co-authored or authored numerous books and is a clinical psychologist in the Seattle area.

You can find John and Julie Gottman on Instagram at Gottman Institute and Twitter, Gottman INST. You can find everything at Gottman.com. Hello! Hi! Hello! Good afternoon! you can find everything at gotman.com. Hello. Hi. Hello, good afternoon. I am so excited to meet both of you. I'm a huge fan.

It's a great honor to have you on the show. Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for being here. You've helped so many of us, including myself, understand relationships and just the factors that contribute to having a healthy relationship, which so many of us don't understand.

We don't get to go to a relationship school. Most of us haven't had healthy relationships modeled and I quote you guys all the time. I think everyone does. And you're truly pioneers, really. Through the years of research and of observing like all these couples you know you know you learn where couples are actually struggling where they struggle the most. I know this is

often cited but to get my listeners a better idea of the magnitude of your work you can predict with confidence and incredible accuracy in fact 94% accuracy which separates the masters of relationships from the disasters. In other words, you can tell which couples might be headed for divorce or a breakup. That's incredible. Basically, that's true. However, that's a given that they're not getting any kind of intervention in the six years between when we foresee them

and later on when we find out what's happened to them. They came into the lab, they were dubbed to various physiology equipment and they were videotaped and so on. And they would just have a couple of conversations with one another, each conversation for 15 minutes. They would just have a couple of conversations with one another, each conversation for 15 minutes. They would also just be interviewed about the history of their relationship, and that was important. And then we'd say bye-bye, they'd leave the lab, and we'd check in on them every couple of years, and within about six years, we could tell based

on that day they came into the lab what would happen to them six years down the road with 94% accuracy, given that they didn't have any intervention, any therapy, for example, between when we saw them and when we checked in with them later. Actually, if they got therapy, they were more likely to divorce. That if they got therapy. Yeah, that's what Bob Levinson and I found. Bad therapy. Yeah, it's always, but you know, things are different. In the last 25 years, Julian and I have worked together to create a new therapy and new ways of helping couples. And now things are much better.

We can help people avoid relationship disaster. And to some degree, turn a disaster into a master. You know, basically what happened is at first, and John started this work before he and I met 35 years ago. So about 45 years ago, he was working with his colleague, Robert Levinson, who is a professor at UC Berkeley. And they did a lot of the initial lab work determining what predicted divorce or Stained together on happily or staying together very happily

So they were the ones that determined those principles and then we continued the work after John and I met But what we also did 25 years ago is to make a decision that we wanted to create theory and interventions based on what we saw the successful couples do, try those out in a workshop, and then see whether or not they actually worked. Fine tune them and then begin teaching them to therapists and doing the therapy ourselves, doing the workshops and then it just spread like wildfire around the world because people really didn't know what successful couples were doing to make them successful

until John and Bob figured it out. I've heard this before, and I want to see if you think this is true that sex, having kids and money are three of the biggest challenges in a relationship. Yeah, there's some truth in that, particularly the money disputes very often are labeled as the big predictors of divorce. But we've actually found that that's kind of a superficial view because arguments about

money are almost always arguments about what money means. And underneath there is really about your values about how to live life and what life means. So one thing that's happened during COVID, to good relationships is people have really talked about their lives together and how they can have more meaningful connection in their alliance. And so I think the fights about sex, money, and other things, really a lot of times they're about the absence of connection,

emotional connection, and physical connection. And they sort of take a back seat to what really is vital in a relationship, keeping it alive. Also, I think it's really important to stress that the topics, of course, are really important in terms of what couples fight about. Those are the most common things couples fight about. However, the way they fight is what predicts divorce, the way they fight. So they could be talking about who's going to hold on to the remote for the TV. And that can lead to a divorce because of the horrible ways that they're fighting. The ways that

they're using those for horsemen instead of the antidotes to those, which have much more to do with describing yourself, describing your own feelings. I'm lonely. I really miss you. I miss touching you. Could we have a romantic night tonight romantic night to night, asking directly for what you need and not asking in a way that says, would you please stop doing this? We call that a negative need. Right. Exactly. But rather a positive need, you tell your partner how they can shine for you. And who doesn't want to shine for the other person, right? Exactly. What are unsuccessful couples doing relationships that differentiate them from successful couples? So when they bring up a conflict, they're doing typically a lot of what we call the

four horsemen of the apocalypse. And those are very big predictors of relationship demise. The first one is criticism, which means they'll look at a problem they're having and they'll blame the other partner and put the other partner down with criticism. You're so lazy, you never clean up the kitchen. What's the matter with you? Here's what's wrong with you. Here's what's wrong with you. So criticism.

Secondly, they will use contempt. And contempt is a bit like criticism, but it's coming from a more superior place. So it has sarcasm sometimes. It will have an eye roll. Well, you know, like, oh my God, really? Are you really that stupid? That kind of stuff that if you have teenagers in your life, you've seen it a lot. So, contempt turned out to be the worst thing for a relationship. It's really terrible.

Give me some examples of contempt, just so people really get it. What it might look like? Sure. Oh, you think I'm driving too fast. Oh, you're scared. Oh, mockery. One, you slut. You discussed me, name calling, contempt, sarcasm, you wouldn't even think of doing the laundry, would you? Doesn't even occur to you. You know, that kind of thing is even worse than criticism. Okay. So number three is defensiveness. So that's the hardest one really for people to do less of. We never really lose it all together, but it's a response

to feeling put down or attacked. And so a person will be defensive by either being kind of a righteous victim like, what do you mean? I do pay the bills on time. I always pay the bills, you know, that kind of thing, or counter-attacking. Oh yeah, well, you got a traffic ticket last week, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's counter-attacking. That's defensiveness, number three. And number four is what we call stonewalling. And stonewalling really means that during a conversation,

you are in effect shutting yourself so completely down to the other person that you're not responding to them at all. You may not be looking at them at all. You don't say anything at all. And I'm not talking about a short pause, like a pause to think of an answer. It's for minutes at a time. There's no response, no head nod, no, uh-huh. I get it. Nothing. You're turning into a stone wall. Okay. Those are the four that you observed with. How many couples over the years now? A couple thousand thousand three thousand One of the interesting things was that the masters of relationship even if their partners were critical rather than counter attacking getting defensive or you know whining and acting like an innocent victim

They took responsibility. They said that's interesting, you know them. They took responsibility. They said, that's interesting. You know, maybe I can be selfish and thoughtless of times. Tell me more about feel and tell me what you need. And that was a very different response than pushing off, you know, pushing away what the partner is saying. So that that became a very different way of talking. Just, you know, saying, if you're upset, I really want to hear about it. And that really gave us a window into what it is that people are doing when relationships are going well. Right.

The way the partner reacts is sort of diffusing it. Yeah. And then that might actually turn it around. That's right. That's right. So, so the thing is I'm just wondering, is this the kind of thing when we see people doing this? I just wonder, could we all learn that? Like are there couples that have just been together a few weeks and they could just come to one of your labs and they could fit, could we learn these skills? Because

you'd save so much heartache. You'd save, you'd save so many problems in relationships before they walk down the aisle. And I get get many people won't even go through the door Because they're riding the dopamine bliss of a new relationship But I think that it's just so I mean now I think if you've heard you said you can predict it not an hour because you are the masters Right Emily, you know, one of the things that we discovered was that in prevention and When couples take a workshop usually they're really interested in taking a workshop to improve their relationship when they're expecting a baby. And they don't want the baby to be negatively affected by their arguing. And they just come to a workshop that

lasts 10 hours. We can avoid all these negative consequences for almost 80% of couples, and just 10 hours. These are the workshops that you do around the world, right? We do a lot of workshops around the world, but this particular workshop was just an amazing research study. We didn't expect the results to be that good between the couples who expected a baby and did the workshop.

It was a two day workshop five hours each day, and the couples who didn't do the workshop. But was right, 80% of those couples did really, really well compared to maybe about 25% of the couples who didn't do the workshop. Right. Wow. I mean, how can we make this a requirement? I mean, I would love all of my listeners to go because I feel like at least if you're listening now,

try to sign up for a workshop because I always tell my listeners that they really therapy is crucial. I believe that everyone needs therapy. And I think it's a requirement. I think you know that something's gonna happen at some point. You might as well get into therapy before there's a huge problem, but it's really hard to get people to do that. And so do you agree with that?

What do you think? Do you think that most couples could benefit from therapy? The right therapy? I don't know if I would say all couples, but certainly a large number of couples could really benefit from it. One of the things, Emily, that I would really love to see are high school kids getting a class in relationships.

Right? Yes. Because all those patterns get started so early and they don't particularly change that much in adulthood. So if kids knew that criticism doesn't work if you're dating somebody, if they knew that it really helps to take responsibility for what you contributed to a negative incident and how did you do that without kind of losing yourself. I think it would be tremendously helpful for kids and they would probably end up making better choices of life partners later on. Absolutely. I mean, there's so much lacking

in education for for for for you. I always say that I wish they had comprehensive accurate sex education, but to throw in communication. Right. So you're talking about kids though, and tell me what you think about this, because I do I see it all the time that having kids is going to change your relationship in many ways. Absolutely. I hear from people when it's the sex,

they stop having sex, they stop initiating sex. And so how much of that have you ever talked to couples about that? Yeah, one of the things that we discovered was that, and this was backed up by a study done at UCLA by the Sloan Institute, that especially for dual career couples, a lot of times everything takes priority over the relationship. The children do, the career does, and essentially relationships die by being ignored. And they stop really having romance and playfulness and fun and adventure. You know, we found in a very large study we did that couples about to start therapy, 40,000

couples, gay lesbian and heterosexual couples, 80% of them said that fun had come to die in their relationship. And that's what the Sloan study found as well, is that people stop really romancing one and other. They stop playing together and having fun and, you know, really having an erotic lifeancing one another. They stop playing together and having fun and really having an erotic life with one another. Yeah, a lot of new parents find sex going over a cliff. And I think there's a lack of real understanding

of what's happening there. And when we did our study, which was part of our book, Bringing Baby Home, what we saw is that couples, first of all, underestimated how much work a child is. They underestimated the effects of sleep deprivation. And what research has shown about sleep is that you don't have to actually have less hours of sleep.

But after 30 days of interrupted sleep, you are going to show almost every clinical sign of depression, including a loss of sex drive. So, you know, it's very typical for parents who are losing sleep, of course, with a new child to get more irritable, feel exhausted all the time, just want to think about the baby and nothing else. And they forget how to really connect with one another, prioritize time with one another. I've seen couples, for example, who they would have a date a month, an overnight, where grandma and grandpa would come in to take care of the baby, they go for a date, and they would go

to a hotel, thinking it would be really romantic. What would they do? They'd go to fall asleep. Which is the most romantic thing ever. No one will go to suffer nine hours. And it was hot. It's true. I mean, I love that we're normalizing this because it's fun. Every time somewhere as a baby or they go through the situation, they think they're the only ones. I can't believe this is happening. And then you're so in it, it's almost too late. I mean, it's never too late.

But it's almost like they just, they can't even think their way out of it. Yes. I want to get back into conflict for a minute and in relationships. Because that's a lot of what we, you know, there's so many conflicts and there's so many problems that people just won't get past. They might not go to therapy. And I've always said it seems like you're repeating the same things over and over. And then hearing yours that 69% of conflicts are never solved.

And in fact, they stay the same. So over years. So like, this is never going to change. But then yet, we call these relationships still successful. How is that possible? Well, here's the thing. The question about successful relationships isn't, do they solve all their problems? It's, again, how do they dialogue about those problems? How do they dialogue?

Right? So, you were talking about compromise. Well, one of the things that is really, really important is taking the time to really understand your partner's point of view about a particular conflict and where it comes from, what it's about for them? What's the history behind that? Childhood history, other relationship history. Why is it so important to you that you have this particular position on the issue really lived? What is the underlying sense of purpose and meaning for you, and having your position on the issue honored?

When you have that kind of conversation meaning for you in having your position on the issue honored. And when you have that kind of conversation with one person as the listener and the other as the speaker, and that listener just staying with question after question to really understand the other person's point of view and then reversing the roles. So there's deeper understanding. Then compromise becomes so

much easier because you develop compassion and a much deeper appreciation for your partner's internal world regarding their position on a conflict issue. Could you give me some examples about how a conflict that stays the same but how you kind of learn to do the juzh it so it works in a way. We call this the dreams within conflict and we analyze 950 of these conflicts that seemed like deal-breakers, you know, where they're opposed to each other and compromise seems unthinkable because in these deal breakers you're kind of selling yourself out if you compromise. That's the way it feels. And so after we analyze that and we also saw that in our own relationship as well, we found that some of these unsavable problems become the

points of better connection. So an example from our own relationship, for example, was that, you know, we now live on Orcas Island in the San Juan Islands north of Seattle. And we've vacationed here when we were first married and we really loved it. We loved canoeing on the ocean and we really enjoyed it. And at a certain point, Julie really felt like she wanted to have a cabin on Orkisana, a small cabin. And I was opposed to it, strongly opposed to it. And she really wanted to do it. And I didn't understand the reasons for it.

I thought it was extravagant. We already had a house. We could rent. I had all kinds of objections to it. And we finally went to therapy to try to get help with this. The therapy didn't work. The therapist led to me, John, you can say no to Julie and she has to live with it. And I turned to Julie and I said, do I sound like her?

And he said, yeah, you do. And I said, well, let's quit therapy and talk about this more deeply. And you're fired. Not all great. Not therapists are great. A lot of therapy out there. So, you know, so she really asked me a lot of questions about why I was so opposed to this. And I asked her a lot of questions about why she wanted it so much. And we found that there were deep reasons about why I was opposed to it, which had to do with my parents having survived the Holocaust and having to flee from Austria with absolutely no possessions at all.

They lost everything. And my parents always conveyed this idea that you shouldn't trust in property or things. You should only trust in what you can carry in your mind. And so the idea of trusting in property to me was terrifying, right? Yet, it really was born in the United States and wasn't a refugee like me.

And she had grown up really appreciating nature in a very deep way and wanted to be a steward of nature, which something I didn't understand when we first married and learned to understand over time. So as we heard each other's reasons for wanting this, we decided to embark on an experiment and try it for a couple of years, buy a small place and see how it felt and we tried the experiment

and we both fell in love with having a home here. God, I love that example because so, I think the opposite of that is a couple saying that just continues to be a fight for the rest of their relationship. Right. Never let me live in the country, but you have the skill set of listening and teaching. I guess people learn this, they learn this from you, but we are not, we are not born listeners, right, active listening.

Right. We really learned it from the couples in the lab who took these deal breakers and asked each other questions that deepened their understanding of their partner's point of view. And Julie is the one who was insightful enough to see that this was an important therapy technique because of her background as a therapist. Wow, you guys are like couples' goals, really. I just need to know how you both met. So can you just start there?

I was going to be driving about an hour to a party and one cannot drive an hour without having coffee in your car. And so I stopped in at a little coffee cafe and John was sitting there. I went to go order coffee and he asked me if I'd like to sit with him for a few minutes. sat together for almost an hour, which made me late to the party, but I didn't really care because he was dazzling. He was dazzling. I loved his eyes. I loved his mind. I didn't really know what he did or the fact that he was already a famous person in the academic world, but I think I just kind of fell in love or right then and there. Okay. We fell in love with my car. Well, this is pretty.

I mean, his car was voted the ugliest car in the University of Washington faculty parking lot. Right. And I dored it. It was like a 19, I don't know what, two red Dodge with big white patches of Bondo all over it because he hadn't had it painted after he had all the rust patched up. And I loved his car. It was just the same.

He loved his car and you loved meeting him. That's amazing. And what it hurts that John too, you had been dating too, right? For a while. Is it true that you went on 60 dates? That's true. So when I got to Seattle, I'd been divorced for about seven years.

And I decided school hadn't started yet. And I'd get to know the city and go on as many dates as I could. So before I met Julie, I had gone out on 60 dates in 10 weeks. She was number 61. And she was a clear outlier. And a database. I mean, that is incredible. Will you try to be tracking the dates? Will you write notes about them?

Or could you just keep moving until you found someone that you wanted to know? No, I didn't think I'd find the love of my life. But I thought I'd find somebody to go to movies with or out to dinner and I did meet people like that but nothing compared to Julie. He was just new. Yeah. And then you started working together, which I love because I heard you also say that I

think Julie was an interview you said, you know, we're not relationship gurus. You know, you've just learned from a lot of the successful couples that you've worked with over the years. Be right back with morph my interview with John and Julie Gottman. We'll discuss their book, Eight Dates, Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. If you ever wanted to get closer to your partner and who doesn't, don't miss this. I love your new eight dates book. It's great for couples who've been together for years or just a few months.

I want to point that out. You give in-depth ideas for meaningful, communicative dates that bring couples closer together based on your research. Some of the dates are based around ideas like fun and adventure, dreams, family, work and money, spirituality, and of course, sex and intimacy. Because what I get asked a lot is that people say, I don't know how to even have those conversations, but you lay it out in eight dates. And it's very specific questions that on that date, you just get your partners, I mean,

I think any partner who would want to be a good lover and be a good partner would say, yeah, once a week or, let's say once a month, we'll go on a date and then just take your book as a script. You emphasize a lot about the open-ended questions, rather than just the closed questions. And I think that's just a concept that is so important because it's really how we listen, how we do deepening,

how we start to understand it, wasn't about money, it's about your relationship to money, about your upbringing, about what you've been told about money and fears. I know a lot of couples don't want to do that walk. They just want to stay maybe more in the superficial, but hopefully that people listening to the show are coming to see you. Yeah, the eight are really about keeping curiosity alive and one another. They're not confrontational. They're sort of like asking couples, well, you know, how did your parents do it? And what's your background? What's your history with getting angry? What's your

history with? Conflict? I know, how do you like to talk about things? And, you know, what do you feel about commitment and trust? How did your parents show that they were, trust where they were failed to do that? You know, how can we feel more trusted and one another? Those kinds of questions. Yeah, we feel tested the dates with 350 couples who recorded their dates, so we really know they work. Right. Some of the questions that can help deepen the understanding of your partner's point of view are included in your book. Like, did you have any dreams for yourself when you were child? Did your parents support you in fulfilling your childhood dreams? And is there an underlying purpose for fulfilling your dream? And answering these with a partner can be super powerful.

So maybe you can like walk us through because I think we're going to hit on a lot of things there. You know, some of the dates, some of the most important of the sex date. I want to talk about the sex date I do. But do you find the most, there's the conflict date, the money date, the sex date? The first date turned out to be, in a lot of ways, the most powerful emotionally, where they're talking about trust and commitment. Can you lean on me? Are you going to be there for me? And what's been your experience in other relationships?

And what did you see with your own family? How did people show one another that they could really be there and count on that person to be there in hard times? We say that in the wedding vows, right? Sickness and health and, you know, for better or for worse. But how do you actually act when things are worse? So that conversation turned out to have a lot of juice. People really wanted to talk about commitment and trust.

Yeah. It's your favorite day, Julie. Yeah, what's your favorite day, Julie. Yeah. What's your favorite date? I think my favorite is the date on dreams, not nighttime dreams, but looking at your own dreams for your own life. You know, we get so caught up in the minuscule, in the tasks, in the pickup thalandry, and who's gonna make dinner tonight, you know,

all that stuff, what happened at work today? However, all of us are philosophers, every single person, no matter what your education is, all of us have built a system of values, and we look at the sense of purpose and meaning in our lives only in little tiny glimmers of light over the course of our life. It's so very difficult for us to carve out time to think about, okay, what do I dream about doing?

What do I dream about doing? What do I dream about being? Who do I want to be as a human being? How do I want to give to the world? What's my dream of the legacy I want to leave behind? What great adventures have I dreamed about doing that at this point seem impossible, but they still linger in my mind? So it's a sharing of those deeper layers that we normally do not enter into because our lines are so cluttered, so cluttered with tasks and trivia. So that date, I adore. The other thing, who is that, you know, everybody shares dreams and so on when they first get together and when they, you know, commit to one another and so on, then you get busy.

commit to one another and so on, then you get busy. Well, the reality is that over the course of time, people change, experience changes us. The history that we're living through, for example, this pandemic, is changing people so dramatically, not only superficially, but at a much deeper level in terms of their values, in terms of what they dream of doing when they can finally get out, you know, in the world with safety. So, sharing those thoughts and how your dreams have changed over the decades can be really a momentous conversation.

Yeah, you're right. We do often share that when we start dating somebody and maybe that's what even attracts you to them that they have these dreams and passions of who they're going to be and what they're going to do. But then life gets busy and you have a kid and it is about the laundry and paying the bills and slowly but surely each one of you have little dreams that you're that are dying like I maybe every year they're just getting a little bit more repressed and so to have it to be able to talk about it and say, you know, this is still important to me, this is who I am and I think this might be the antidote to we always hear that couples grew apart. Well, we just grew apart. This would kind of prevent

that if you kept kind of monitoring, well, I'm a group heart because I was going after my dream. I've heard this, this is sort of a cliche example, but well, I was home with the kids, but you were out doing this thing and you were out living your life. And I didn't get to live my dream. So I guess I just love this idea of getting people to stick with these conversations that why you fell in love and what attracted you to each other. It's so important. Yeah. Right. How important are the similarities versus the differences in people's dreams and people's personalities and how they move through the world? There is a huge myth out there. It's probably the most

common myth about relationships that you have to be compatible. And how compatible are you? But the reality is that, you know, if you're truly compatible, you're a clone of the other person and you get bored silly relating to them, right? So you really want to have a person who is different from you, and that is fine. That is great. The key to really having a successful relationship when your dreams are very different from the other persons is do you support each other's dreams even though they're not yours. Now, there's gonna be exceptions to that

where your partner's dream is your nightmare. Well, okay, that's, you know, not gonna happen probably. After the break, John and Julie break down what the research shows about the difference between successful and unsuccessful couples. So, you want to take notes? Be right back. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Let's get into sex real quick in relationships because I want to talk about like specifically

the role of sex and I loved your chapter in your book eight dates because it brings to light how different people approach and experience talking about sex. I mean, I encourage people to talk about sex all the time. And one of the big things I always say people like what are the top questions you get asked and I say people just always want to know if they're normal. I remind them, I'm always like, it's okay. It's okay. Masterbations, okay? You want sex once and people like, how and people want to know, should I be having sex once a week? Ten times a week, I said, well, it's what works for you. In the relationship, I'm not here. I'm not the numbers police or the

sex police. I'm not going to knock it in the door until you didn't have sex enough this week. But can you talk about what are the traits of couples that you found that have a great sex life? The largest study ever done on this question was done with 70,000 couples. And in 24 different countries, and they had that one question, what's different about people who say they have a great sex life compared to people who say they have a bad sex life compared to people who say they have a bad sex life. And you know, reading that study, I was able to list about a baker's dozen of things that people did who had a great sex life. And none of them had to do with what happened

in the bedroom. They were all things like people have a great sex life, tell each other they love them. And mean it every day. They ask questions, they give compliments, they give surprise romantic gifts, they cuddle, they know their partner's preferences sexually, they know their partner is sort of in a world about a desire, what turns them on and turns them off. And they really

stay good friends. And that's so fascinating, I think. Yeah, I think also successful couples are really, really good at both initiating and refusing sex without putting pressure on the other person. So I'll give you an example. I had a couple where he wanted more sex than she did. This was a heterocouple and she had had a history of sexual abuse. And so when he would initiate and she would refuse,

he would get angry at her. And the anger felt like a reenactment of the sexual abuse in the sense that if she didn't conform to his desire and do what he wanted, then she was a bad person, right? And that's oftentimes how a perpetrator will make a sexual abuse survivor feel. She's retraumatized every time, right?

That's right. So she was retraumatized every single time. I mean, it was a very, very difficult case, very difficult situation. But what ended up happening that really, really helped is this was a woman who came from a deeply religious background and had never had anything more than a kiss on the cheek. He had been married three times before and was a porn addict, right? So what he expected of her was complete So what he expected of her was complete pornographic sex basically with him in control all the time and it was scheduled according to his needs, which was three times a week at 9 p.m. So we stopped all of the sex. She had no idea of what she liked at all zero because it had all been his preference. And so I gave her one of my favorite books in the whole wide world by Lonnie Barbock called for yourself female sexuality.

I told my mom when I was like 20 I never had an orgasm. I didn't know what master but I was like 20 something in college my friends. I said mom I never had an orgasm. I didn't know what master, but I was like 20 something in college. My friends, my mom, I never even had an orgasm. She gave me that book, Lonnie Barback, for yourself. And I still have it on my shelf was my first mastervation book. Anyway, I've never, here or anywhere else bring it up. So that was a moment. Okay. Yeah. Lonnie Barback. Yeah. Your mother was just spotter. Yeah. Because it's one of the best books ever written for women. And Lonnie went on to create programs to help women with their own sexuality, videos, more books,

and so on. She's really been a huge contributor, especially for women in the field of sex. So this woman read the book, did all the exercises by herself, and by the end of about eight months or so, which is what it took her during which they were abstinent by Goli. Then she could ask him for what she needed and what she wanted. And the reality was that, you know, he knew she wasn't there really emotionally.

She was more like a zombie who was putting up with his sexual needs. And he missed her. He missed her. He felt lonely. He felt disconnected when they had sex. So now they were able to move back into having a sexual relationship in which both of their needs mattered with hers mattering first more so and then eventually reaching a balance where they were so much more fulfilled because she learned what she loved sexually and sensually and could convey that, had to tell him specifically, and this

woman didn't know she had a clitoris, right? But a lot of women don't, but what I love that you're saying, and it reinforces something that we talk about a lot here, is that a lot of people, we just haven't done the work. We just a lot of women who've raised it could be more performative during sex or just kind of give up and kind of fake orgasms. It just, you have to take time. Might be eight months. It might be, you know, eight weeks.

You just study it. You say, I'm going to figure out what I want so I can come back to you and show up as a fully, you know, more sexual being and not looking at our sexuality and the eyes of our partners but sort of figuring out what we want. You also talk about methods for initiating sex in chapter three of your book. Let's get it on. And for listeners at home, an indirect request for sex would be like, why don't we have sex anymore?

Whereas a direct request would be more like, hey, want to have sex or initiating using touch. It's so much more effective. Yeah, it must be in couples are more likely to be direct than heterosexual couples. Yeah. Also, they talk about the importance of kissing. I know kissing is so important. Have you found that kissing is the first thing

that goes in long-term relationships? And I think you have found in some studies how important how important kissing is. There's a German study that shows that German men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live five years longer than German men who do not. But that's not a good example for everybody to kiss your partner before you go to work. I don't know what is. I mean, come on, how hard is that?

But we're really talking about constant connection and communication. Right. The healthiest thing that we see in relationships. Real quickly, can we talk about pheromones and attraction? Sure. I know it's a big question, but I get asked it all the time,

like what is attraction? Do we have to be the same? And I know the T-shirt study and all the things, but what is that about? Yeah, a class wetter-can German researcher found that women prefer the smell of T-shirts of that men wore for a couple of days when the men are most different from them genetically, just in terms of the genes of the immune system. So that women are much more interested in men who are genetically diverse from them, and that has an obvious evolutionary advantage for your children.

And if you have the genes of very different immune systems, your children are more protected. But here's this unconscious process happening, and it's coming out and smell, and other things that we probably aren't measuring. And the study was done, a wood-dose women actually liked those men better, who smells they like better, and that study was done, and it's true they do like them better. So here we are, we're selecting people who are very different from us, and we're most attracted to people who are very different from us. And the big mistake that people make is once they get together, if they try to turn their

partner into them by being critical, then the relationship is going to go south. As opposed to really accepting the differences and really learning from and benefiting from those one and celebrating those differences. Right. How can we bring the T-shirt study today and just trying to think through all of your work and everything I read and study, it's like you guys have the answers and everyone's running around trying to figure it out. Is there a way to kind of hack the hack attractions?

Can we do a little mini t-shirt study? How can we find out that we're making these choices of the right partner? What are any quick answers or things that we can just know that these are the things that have to be in place before you walk down the aisle and even go on the third date? Is there any way to know? So we have an app that is free that people can download if they go to the app store and type gotman card decks. One of the card decks is a hundred questions you can ask a woman about her inner erotic world and a hundred questions you can ask a man about his inner erotic world.

And they can download that for free. It's been downloaded 350,000 times so far. And then they can know if they're sexually compatible. I love it. I love your app. I'm just telling you I have it. I recommend it all the time. I may be responsible for like 20 of those downloads, but yeah, it's so well done. But to address the broader question, you asked, how can you know that you're really looking at somebody who can you can have a really good relationship with. So attraction, of course, is a really important thing, but I would say there are several other factors that are really important. One is does your partner actually do what he or she or they

say they're gonna do? In other words, do they follow through with what they say they're going to do? Because a lot of times people will experience, oh, I'll call you next week and then we never do. So we've that one. Are they there for you when you need them in all kinds of different situations? Are they there for you when you want to celebrate a triumph? Are they there for you when you want to talk about a defeat? Are they there for you when you're physically sick? Are they there for you when you're depressed? Are they there for you when you want to go out and have a fabulous, you know, ecstatic, spontaneous, fun time? Are they there for you when you really need help with

your kid? Are they there for you? That's probably the biggest question along with sexual attraction. That really makes a big difference. It's the trust. OK. I guess all the time, if I wasn't a track, I was never really attracted to my partner, but now I'm wondering if I could learn to be attracted to him. Like, I third, they're my best friend.

We do everything together. I love them. Their family loves me. I love them. But we've never, I, the sex, wasn't there. Do you think you can create that if it wasn't there in the beginning? You know, I, it depends on what it is. You want to create. If you want to create a really hot, vibrant, really super duper passionate sex life, probably not. However, if you want to create a sex life that

is tender, that is loving, that is sweet, that is satisfying sexually, but may not be the hottest, most passionate thing in the whole wide world with fireworks, good enough. Yeah. I guess it's deciding what sex, the importance of what it means to you. Again, defining what sex means to you. Good enough. Yeah. Okay, I have a few more questions. This is from our Instagram. We told our Instagram audience you were coming on the show and they were very happy. So we have a few questions. This is from someone who says we have a toddler and a baby. There is no gas left in the tank and we're losing our connection and chemistry help. Date night, date night, date night, date night. Go on a date once a week. No matter what.

Have a bank of babysitters, you can call upon and go on a date. You've got to give the relationship some priority and some connection and take along with you, maybe the book, and just have a conversation that helps you draw closer emotionally, but sit very close together on a couch somewhere. John and I, when we didn't have much money, we would go in Seattle to a hotel that had the most beautiful lobby in the whole wide world. It was dimly lit, huge stone fireplace, big soft couches in front of it. We would go there, we'd commandeer a pouch, pretending we were guests, and we would order one drink each and we just sit with the fire and talk for three or four hours and then we

gone. Bavulas. Non-negotiable date nights. I think you even have some studies about that that couples who stick with the date night are the most successful. Okay, here's another one. Steps to take well single to attract a healthy relationship.

So first of all, how do you meet somebody? Where do you meet them? You're probably not gonna meet them at a bar. People go to bars for different reasons than finding the love of their life. So also, don't drink a lot. Use a lot of drugs when you're first meeting somebody. You want to be sober, clear-eyed, clear-minded so that you can really sense who this person is. Right? And be yourself. And be yourself and be yourself, right? I love it. Okay one more. How do couples address differing views of

vulnerability and intimacy in sex? One of the things is that if a person doesn't have the vocabulary to be more vulnerable maybe they can be more vulnerable through touch. So Will they allow themselves, for example, to just be a receiver and receive touch from you that varies in all kinds of ways in terms of sensuality and to tell you what they like and what they don't like. So you know, ones a receiver, ones are giver, and you can touch them with your fingers,

you can touch them with a piece of velvet, you can touch them with a feather, you can touch them all over their body. Where do they like to be touched the most, and when they really like it, why do they like to be touched the most and when they really like it, why do they like it? What feels good about it? What does it remind them of that makes them feel so good? So it's a gradual opening when people feel more safe. They'll want to open up and be vulnerable. I think Bernabé Brown has really talked so much about this in a beautiful way. I love her. Okay.

Thank you so much. I, Donna Julie Gottman, this is amazing. Now, I have five quicky questions we ask all of our guests and they're quick. It can be one answer, one sentence. Okay. Ready. What is your biggest turn on? Listening to blues.

Blues music. Love it. Love it. John, what about you? Probably taking a walk with Julian or puppy. You have a puppy too, okay. Okay, big is turn off. Watching a TV show where men are being violent against women.

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be mine too. Okay, what makes good sex? Really a feeling emotionally connected and safe. Just being with Julie. Oh, something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Don't give yourself away so easily. It'll happen, don't worry. Oh, and it happened. Okay, what's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? There's huge variation. Everything is acceptable.

That's all, okay. I love that. Except hurting the other person when they haven't consented to it. It's not rocket science. It's sex isn't so difficult. And it's really about affection and caring and emotional connection. And that becoming physical connection as well. Great.

I love it. Thank you both for being here so much. This is such an honor. This was a wonderful interview and I just thank you for all the work that you do. I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Yeah, this was great. You're a wonderful interviewer. Oh, thank you. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like, subscribe and give us a review where every listener podcasts and share this

with a friend or a partner. Believe me, if you got something out of this, they will too. We released two to three episodes a week, find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter. It's all at Sex with Emily. If you want to ask me a question about sex dating or relationships, you can email me feedback at sexwithemlee.com or sexwithemlee.com slash ask Emily. If you want to ask me a question about sex dating or relationships, you can email me feedback at sexwithemily.com or sexwithemily.com slash ask Emily. And check out my website.

We have so many articles on there helping you better sex and you can check out our guides at sexwithemily.com slash guides for free guides that will give you expansive tips and activities. Sign up for weekly emails because hey, I've been told I give really good emails. Was it good for you? Email me feedback at sexwithemily.com.