Sex With Emily - Turn Yourself On w/ Esther Perel

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

Esther Perel is one of the most fascinating thinkers today on issues of desire, sex, and relationships. As an author and psychotherapist, she helps therapy patients (and the general public) understand the complexities of love and desire with provocative questions. How do you turn yourself on? How do you balance your need for safety and security, and on the other hand, your need for adventure and novelty? Can you want what you already have? As the author of the iconic “Mating In Captivity” and another bestseller, “The State of Affairs,” Esther is reshaping society’s views of sexuality and eroticism -- and arguably, healing them.In today’s episode, we talk about the difference between sexual and emotional needs, how you can calibrate your expectations of marriage, and why people in happy relationships still cheat. We also discuss her new game “Where Should We Begin,” answer a listener’s question about how to handle anxiety in relationships, and her number one piece of advice for having better sex.For more Esther Perel, visit estherperel.comShow Notes:The Pleasure PlannerFor even more sex advice, tips, and tricks visit sexwithemily.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Here's a question for design. I turn myself off when. It's very different than you turn me off when and what turns me off is. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Betrubize they call them in a fight on days. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Esther Peral is one of the most fascinating thinkers today on issues of desire, sex, and relationships. As an author and psychotherapist, she helps therapy

patients and the general public understand the complexities of love and desire with really provocative questions. Like how do you turn yourself on? How do you balance your need for safety and security? And on the other hand, your need for adventure and novelty? Can you want what you already have? As there's reshaping society's views of sexuality and eroticism, and arguably healing them. In today's episode, we talk about the difference between sexual and emotional needs, how you can calibrate your expectations for marriage

and why people in happy relationships still cheat. We also discuss and play her new game, Where Shall We Begin? Answer a listener's question about how to handle anxiety in relationships and her number one piece of advice for having better sex. Alright, intentions with Emily, for each episode, join me in setting an intention for Number one, piece of advice for having better sex. All right, intentions with Emily. For each episode, join me in setting an intention for the show. I do it and I encourage you all to do the same.

My intention is to get you to think about pleasure from an emotional, physical, and relational perspective. All right, we have a pleasure planner. It's a free downloadable guide. It's on our website We have a bunch of guides there, but this one really helps ground you in your pleasure What you want to happen for the next week or the next year just download it sex with Emily dot com slash guides Oh, and also please please please rate and review the show wherever you listen. We so appreciate it Please please, please rate and review the show wherever you listen. We so appreciate it. Okay, if you want to ask me a question, I love that.

Just call my brand new hotline. It's 559 Talk Sex or 559 825 5739. Write that number down. Oh, you can also leave me your questions there or just message me. Sexwithemily.com slash ask Emily. Alright everyone, enjoy this episode. A stair parallel is recognized as one of the most insightful and original voices on modern relationships. As a psychotherapist, Perral has had a therapy practice in New York City for more than 35

years. Perral's celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 30 million views, and she has two best-selling books, Made in Captivity and the State of Affairs. Pearl hosts two podcasts, where should we begin and how's work? You can find more about her at estheraparell.com, or by following estheraparell official on Instagram.

Hi, esther, welcome to the show. Hey, hey! All right, let's dive in. Anyone who's been in a long-term relationship has gone through a phase where the desire for your partner fades. No matter how intense and exciting the honeymoon phase was, you get used to each other and the novelty wears off. So why does the desire for our partners wane in long-term relationships? No, it's a big question. For most of history, sexuality in long-term relationships. I know it's a big question. For most of history, sexuality in long-term relationships, which was primarily marriage,

was for procreation, so that you could have eight children for which you probably needed to have more, because a few were not going to survive. And sex was primarily a woman's marital duty. and sex was primarily a woman's marital duty. So, you did it because you had to, and you had a motivation to, which was to procreate. We went from the procreative model to the recreative model. We went from duty to desire. We went from sexuality to be, kind of, an economic asset, because children's were economic asset, to sexuality being

for pleasure and for connection. We take it for granted, but it is a massive transformation. And then come the 60s, and we have a number of mini-revolutions, but primarily we have the democratization of contraception, which means that there is a generation that for the first time has premarital sex, has the permission to do what they want, has contraception in their hand, has a sexuality that has been redefined under a completely new organizing principle, and they don't feel like it, at home and they don't know why. Can we want what we already have? Is the fundamental question of desire?

What is the difference between love and desire? How do they relate? But also how do they conflict? Why is it that a forbidden is so erotic? Why does parents who deliver such a fatal erotic blow? What is at stake when the very thing that people rely on is the very thing that becomes fragile, because we don't think of desire as something that needs to be cultivated, sustained, actively nourished, we think that because in the beginning for some of us anyway, it's there, it's just going to remain there forever. And the forever keeps on getting longer. Exactly.

That's the crisis of desire. We had to get married, we became property of the man, and then we thought, well, we get to pick a partner and it should're based on this love and sex and Connection. Well, it's like what we're talking about is the honeymoon phase right that everyone goes through at the beginning of a relationship No, not everyone actually as many people that start to look warm and become hot later That is also a myth that everybody starts with a tremendous amount of Erotic enthusiasm for their partner. Some do, but many don't, but we don't say that out loud because the myth says that there

should be a honeymoon phase. Okay, so those people like in arranged marriages, or they're just making their own arrangements in their head, and they think, well, I'm not attracted to this person, but they're going to be a great provider. So, that's not important to me right now to have that kind of desire. That or I feel deeply emotionally connected to you, you feel safe to me, you will be good to me, you will not hurt me, you will care for me. And the fact that I am not as drawn to you physically or feel compatible with you physically is secondary at this moment. My erotic needs and my emotional needs are not aligned,

and I am letting my emotional needs be the decisive factor. It's fine. But is it fine? So how important is sex in a long-term relationship? It may be very important for us. That's very same person, but maybe the emotional needs superseded. And you have to know that, you have to understand that. That same person who made that choice may have been fine for 10, 15 years sometimes.

And then, that other dormant part of them resurfaces with evangence and says, what about me? But that doesn't mean that it wasn't wrong choice that was made at first. There was a choice that was made for different reasons. And those things, we have the idea that sexual needs and emotional needs are one and the same. And they always go neatly aligned together. And that is not necessarily the case. There are people with whom we can have wonderful sexual

encounters with whom we would never want to live a life. And there are people with whom we want to live a whole life, but we have to mourn a kind of erotic flatness that for some of us is a real dear loss. So, how do we reckon? I mean, I know that a lot of your work is getting couples to reconcile this and to understand how the importance of sex, how they can either get it back. Well, we had it at the beginning. That's what I hear a lot at least they had, even if they had it for a week. Even if they're 20 years, that first week was amazing and they all want to go back.

I would say you're never going to go back, but what do we do? Can we experience desire and deep love at the same time. Yes, yes, of course, some of us really do. The way I organized it in my head was actually based on the workers who have Stephen Mitchell and others. It was not, I wasn't just my original thinking that we all have two fundamental sets of human needs. And we need security and we need safety and stability and predictability. We also need adventure and novelty and risk and mystery and sometimes danger. The degree to which these two organizing needs, existential needs in our life, live inside of us, will tell you the answer to how important this sex.

When you say how important this sex in a long term relationship, my first answer to you is for whom? Tell me the story of that person, and who that person is, and I'll have a better sense of how to answer that, rather than some flat generalizable number. And each of us struggles these two fundamental needs. rather than some flat generalizable number.

And each of us struggles these two fundamental new needs and they change in the course of our life. So some of us will find that the place where we love is also the place where desire feels very free. The safety I feel with you is what unleashes my erotic self. I ask this exercise a lot, where I ask people separate the page into. When I think about sex, I think of. When I think about love, I think of. When I am wanted, I feel. When I want, when I desire, I feel. And when I think about desire between you and me. And then on the other side, when I think about love,

when I am loved, when I love, and when I think about the love between you and me. And then you look at the connections. For some people, these two seamlessly flow together and you look at the connections. For some people these two seamlessly flow together and one flows from the other. And for other people, they are rather separately and disconnected. When I love, I feel deeply responsible. When I you know, when I, it's that dance that every person has to explore for themselves. Then, how do you bring them together? You tell people it's not the desire just for doing sex.

Desire and the erotic, you know, I think that that's what frees people up is. When I say, we're not talking about sex. You can have sex three times a week and feel absolutely nothing. I am not there to help you do it, but I will explore with you, where do you go in sex? What does sex mean for you? What parts of you get expressed in sex? What is it a vocabulary for for you? When I go into that frame, it becomes a different conversation. Women have done sex for centuries and felt nothing. So desire is not the desire to do it. Here's a question for desire. I turn myself off when or by. It's very different than you turn me off when and what turns me off is. So I turn myself

off, say, people, I shut down my desire, right? I suppress, I go numb. When I feel self critical, when I feel, in not in touch with my body lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a lot of pressure, I have a worry about money when you and I fight the whole day. I turn myself on. I awaken myself. I ignite myself, which isn't you turn me on when and what turns me on is. People will say, I turn myself on when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I dance in the rain, when I meet with friends, when I go to the club, 90% of what they're talking about is not about sex. I turn myself on when I feel alive. I turn myself on when I feel worthy of being desired, when I feel desirable. I turn myself on when I like who I am when I'm with you. And that notion that desire is the one aspect of sex that you can't force. You can

force people to have sex. You can't force them to want it. But in order to want it, it needs to be worth wanting. Now let's talk about desire for you. First of all, he'll say, you turn me off and you turn me on, but you're empowering people to say, no, I, it's a decision. It's a choice. When am I the most turned on? When am I the most turned off? I bet it's really easy for a lot of people to answer what turns them off, then actually what turns them on. And then that gets into, because you work a lot on eroticism and sexuality as well.

I think they're different. Eroticism and feeling desire and feeling like understanding. You always have erotic intelligence, right desire and feeling like understanding, you know, you always have erotic intelligence, right? It's like the place. You say sex isn't something we do. It's a place we go. I'm interested in the erotic dimension of sex, the poetics, the meaning of it, not what

you do. You, the same gesture in sex can be ultimately pleasurable and soothing and fun, and it can be utterly, you know, cringing. It's the same gesture. It's not this gesture versus that. It's the context where you are at, with yourself and with the other, that will determine if this becomes a source of connection or a source of hurt. That's the important thing to understand with sex. So what I'm dealing with is the energy. I distinguish it, the curiosity. The way people stay interested, the pay people stay motivated. The way people use their imagination.

What do you think it's like at 5 at 70? You know, you're not going to see the same thing that you see at 25, but you may be so much more confident that it actually gets better. Sex gets better with age. It gets better when people are more confident and more self-accepting. Yes. You know, doesn't have to do with the size of their pants. So to talk about eroticism was a way to liberate the conversation from all the misguided

and miscommunicated myths that surround the conversation about sex, I said, okay, let's, a roadicism is about imagination, not about the 20 positions that you can come up with. Right. Or whatever. So when you have couples, for example, do this like what turns me off, what turns me on, it's that's the way of them getting into their own,

like understanding about it, that maybe the same sex that could feel good once they realize it. Oh, I'm turning myself off. But once I've found what I'm turned on, I'm open for whatever, if I'm really in that space, but it takes work, it's that arousal. And if you're not turned on, and I'm not talking just arousal,

I'm talking available, open, willing. If you're not willing, you partner can do all the things that you typically like. There's going to be nobody at the reception desk. So it's not what the other person does. The other person can follow your, you know, prescriptions. But if you're not into it that day, that moment, nothing's going to happen. I mean, unless you force yourself, but it's not going to be willing. The difference in talking about sex versus eroticism is talking about pleasure versus performance. Say more of that about that, because I'd love to dive into pleasure. How do we look at pleasure? Is something that we deserve?

Pleasure is not orgasm, first of all. Pleasure is the way you talk to me, the way I look at you, the way your hand hovers around me without even touching me. Pleasure is the attention that you give to me. Pleasure is your willingness to go as slow, as I want to go, or that pleasure is the way you're gazing at each other. Pleasure is not about outcome. It's really not about, you know, how was the sex?

We did it and it worked, you know? And I'm like, this is pragmatism applied to eroticism, that doesn't really, you know. So pleasure is not about, you know, getting this thing done. It can happen without any of the trappings of what we consider a sexual act. Pleasure is linked to self-worth because it's about, do I deserve to feel good? And in order to feel deserving of feeling good, of being given to, of being pleasure, of

having someone pay attention to me, of feeling safe that they're not going to hurt me, etc. etc. and vice versa. It demands that I feel lovable and desirable. And so pleasure is directly connected to self-worth. Good sex is directly connected to self-worth. Can I ask for what I want? Can I take the time that I need to take? Can I expect that you would want to do something that maybe is not in your preferences, but you're doing it for me? You know, I love to work with as around sexuality with a vocabulary of key verbs. Like every time you learn a language, you need to learn the key verbs. Sexuality is a language that demands the key verbs. How do you deal with asking? How comfortable are you to ask?

How comfortable are you with the asks of partners, not just the civil partner, any partners? How do you deal with giving? Do you enjoy giving? Do you find giving is just something you need to get through? It's a responsibility, it's a burden. How do you feel about receiving? Do you feel like the passivity of receiving?

Do you only feel that you can receive after you've given, because you've earned it? You know, how do you deal with sharing? How do you deal with refusing? Can you say no? Because if you can't say no, you can't really say yes. What, how is your experience around these verbs verbs when it comes to your sexual encounters? Yes. You learn a lot. Oh, as they are, those are such great questions to ask because a lot of what we talk about is trying to encourage people to even have the conversation about their sex life.

Because a lot of you are comfortable, like I hear from women all the time, like I don't want someone to go down to me, let's say, or have oral sex because I don't feel like Like, I hear from women all the time, like, I don't want someone to go down to me, let's say, or have oral sex because I don't feel like it's hard for me to receive, right? And then I was like, well, what other places in your life is it hard to receive? So to look at sex as a giving and receiving, which it really is, and then looking, I mean, I love this. And do we deserve it? And if we're not feeling good in our bodies or good about ourselves, we absolutely,

there's no, if we're not feeling good, what you're saying is if we're not feeling great in our bodies or in our, or it with our partner, we're not going to be open to it, really, until we really don't pass this. So, I know. I had once given an assignment to a patient of mine who was saying exactly what you just said. She came from a story of abuse. And because I think it was such a powerful story, I will share it with you. I haven't told it in a long time.

She came from a story of abuse. And she always thought that she liked soap and bubbles and soft tics. And then one day, after a workshop with me, she comes back home and she attaches herself to the bed. And she leaves him a note and that says, help me. And never in her life did she think that she would ever go there. But what she was doing, by creating a situation

where she couldn't say, I have enough. All the time when she eats, and she's done, she gives him what's left on her plate. I have enough, I don't need more. And that plate. I have enough. I don't need more. And that was her stance in sex. I don't need more. So she hadn't had an orgasm in 22 years. And then I said to her, do you like ice cream? I want you to get yourself the biggest, most luscious, delicious ice cream. And I want you to lick it while you sit in front of him and he just watches. No sharing of the ice cream. And you can lick it from the top down and the bottom up. And she starts

to riff with B, you know, on how she's going to eat the ice cream. And no sharing, you know. And You know, and that in itself will be a way for you to learn to take. That's another verb to take and to feel deserving and to receive. But practice it with the ice cream. Part of what she was trying to find is sexual scripts where she could not say, I have enough. Right. Because it's the other person who is in charge of how much. And once I understood that she was never going to, and by the way, she had her first orgasm in 22 years too.

After this makes so much sense and she just ate the ice cream, which is also a very sensual act too for him to watch her. And he, because he wants that for her too, he wants her to feel filled up, right? But her, she's thinking, I gotta keep giving, I gotta keep giving to have value in my family. That's it. You got it. Such a good story. How do we retrain the brain to understand that pleasure is our birthright and not just a reward? Like, I think there's so much about sex and eroticism that we just think we don't deserve it. So the way I work with it is very experientially and I don't just retrain the brain, I retrain the physical experience, the embodied experience which then we send messages to the brain.

So I work a lot with water. What is your preferred temperature of the water? I want you to send in the shower with the perfect temperature for you. And then I want you to notice, what is the place on your body where you enjoy it the most? Is it the nape of your neck? Is it the back? Is it your head? You know, is it your shoulder? Is it the front? You know, and then I want you to just stay under the shower. And for as long as you can, notice, notice the soothing, pleasurable quality of that water. And if at some point you begin to think, oh, I should turn, I should move, I should wash, I should finish. See if you can extend it just another 30 seconds.

You see, you can do it alone, you can do it with the partner watching. These are all metaphors, transposed metaphors of experiences around pleasure. Imagine that you're eating and your partner is just watching. And you're pleasing yourself. You find the thing you like the most. It's so I work with food a lot, I work with fruits, I work with water, I work with fabric, with clothes, You know, that ex that you experience on your body. Well, you know, I work with touch. Do you want hovering touch? This is from the work of Jaya. Do you want no gentle touch? Do you want straight touch? Or do you

want stipple touch? You know, there's a beautiful exercise, another one, that is really the difference between giving touch and taking touch. So the giving touch, I give touch to you. I stroke your hand and I am thinking of you and my mind is completely focused on you. This is a great retrain exercise. And then there is the taking touch which is now I continue to stroke your hand, but this time I'm focused on me. It's how I enjoy. It's the contact of my hand, and you can see people completely change the way they touch. Now I am using your hand for my

pleasure, and I am taking touch. And now I go back to thinking about you. And now I am giving touch. And the distinction that the pleasure of giving is a different kind than the pleasure of taking. Yes, I remember I was with a guy and he would touch me. He'd come up and say, like they were saying, we'd do this thing. And I was like, that might feel good to you. But what we're saying is like really, sometimes just taking the sex off the table and practice one of these touching for my pleasure, touching for your pleasure. Do you want to know a little secret of mine? Can I take your hand and guide it in the way that really unlocks it for me?

Can I show you? And then you literally take the hand and you make, you know, this, this spot and actually if you do it in circles, that's my thing. My thing is circles. You know, other people, it's a straight line, other people, it's a little, you know, stickled line.

Remember that one, it's really a key for me. And it's like everybody can share their little sensual secrets like that with a lover where they are not being critical. They're really saying, here is the way to get to me. Right. Here's a little secret rather than you never touch me correctly. Correct. It's such a better way to do it and who doesn't want to make their partner feel good? And if they don't, then that's another conversation, right?

That's right. That's exactly it. We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors when we come back. As they're on cover, the secret to avoid setting unrealistic expectations in your relationships. Be right back. You know, one of the main things of what you talk about in all of your work, like I remember reading and mating captivity and state of affairs, that you know, all that work says we have unrealistic expectations really when it comes to marriage and commitment and sex and long-term relationship and you've often said like we expect you know one person to give us what a village used to use to give us. So do you think that we need to change our expectations then? Like what is the solution?

I think that the research of Eli Finkl is very compelling for me about that. It's not that you need to change your expectations. It does, they need to calibrate your expectations. Your expectations may be totally fine, but not for one person. One person cannot be an entire community. And marriages need inclusion as well as seclusion. They need a solid social base. They don't live in a vacuum, marriages, long-term relationships, partnerships of all types of people, by the way. This is, you know, live in a context, a social context, and the better, the more solid and rich that social context, the better the couple. That is absolutely clear. So you cannot easily expect to have a person with whom you have all the things that we used to expect from traditional relationships, companionship,

economic support, succession, social status, family life, and have a best friend and a trusted confidant and a passionate lover to boot and a, and the person who supports you in all your professional endeavors, and more and more and more like this. And more and more. And then, right. And this is really a problem of the ideal romantic model of the moment. And then on top of it, call it a soulmate,

which, where do we used to be, reserved for God? Not for a person. Right. So that is the challenge. The more people calibrate their expectations and realize what they can receive from their partner and where they go to their friends, their family, their colleagues, their mentors. To fill you up. Giving them permission is what you're saying.

I think some people think that that's how it has to be. If my partner isn't my best friend, my confidant, my lover, then I'm just something wrong. It's not right for me to have emotional connections outside the relationship. So it's almost like people have to... Because the soulmate model says, we have everything we need with each other.

You're my one and only. You fulfill all my needs. And that is a recipe for catastrophe. It is a recipe. But we're're still everyday people walking down the aisle and making this commitment that does part and it's not realistic it really isn't. So you're saying the couples to go back to what you said, you're saying that couples who have more of a social connection and their community are more successful. Yes, absolutely.

It's a communal model to relationship. See what happens is that because we have for 10 years of single life that we never had in history, before we often decide to pick a partner, it becomes, you are the person for whom I'm going to delete my apps. Right. You know, that's a thousand choices suddenly that I'm going to do away with for you, my beloved, my chosen one. And that notion of chosenness then become you're the one for whom I stopped that whole life and vice versa, I am. And that leads to this complete mystification of how we are overblown creatures that can fulfill

everyone of our needs. That is not actually a good model. That is a good romantic ideal, but it is not a good model for lifelong partnership or whatever lifelong will be. But for partnership, yes, you want to be grounded in a social community, you want needs and interests and activities that are not necessarily with your partner. And the boundary of that, what does that involve, is really the boundary that has expanded and changed the most in modern relationship. You know, in traditional society, she and going anywhere without him.

You know, and then she gets to go to work and then she gets to go and meet friends, and then he gets to go and meet friends, and then in some places they get to have friends from the other gender, and then in some places they get to have same sex friends, and then only same sex friends, and then in other places, you know, and then it goes all the way into the shift from sexual exclusivity to polyamory. This is the boundary. What is inside the couple and what is the boundary around a larger couple, basically? Right. In some places, you know, you can go hike with other people because I hate hiking.

You can go mountain climb with other people because that's not my thing. And in other places, it's, you have your book club and I have my thing and you have your friends and I have my friends and we have our common friends as well. And not everything you do, we go together and not every party, we go to, we go at the same time and leave at the same time. And every couple will define if they are very much of a more merged model or if they are more of a differentiated model of what is us and what is me. Really every couple gets to decide this, but they often don't have the words of the

language to talk about it. And that's when people just go outside the marriage. There's a belief that the one who cheated is the villain and the one who got cheated on is the saint. And what I love about your work in this area is that you've illustrated what a complex scenario it is. What do we get wrong about infertility? I think that what I try to do around infidelity, it was an exploration of what happens when desire goes elsewhere.

Meeting in captivity or my online course, Rekindling Desire, are helping people with desire on the inside of their relationship. And I want to understand, why do people cheat? And even why do people cheat sometimes in happy marriages or in happy relationships? It isn't always just an expression of the discontent inside a relationship. That's a big group of them, but primarily people feel lonely. People feel unseen.

People feel criticized and accepted. People feel they've become a function. People haven't been touched in a decade. That is the kind of reasons on the inside. And then other reasons that have to do with the self, less with the relationship, that not all affairs are symptoms of a relationship that has gone awry. That means sometimes that people become stuck in a role while they're in a relationship. And they go outside not to find another person, but to find another self, to reconnect

with lost parts of themselves. That infidelity is as much about betrayal and deception and duplicity and lying, but it is also about longing and loss and loneliness. I ask an audience, if you've been affected by the experience of infidelity in your life, either because you were the child of a parent who was unfaithful or who left, or you are the offspring of an illicit love, a fair or accident, or you are

the friend who is the confidant of someone who has either been betrayed or is in the throes of an affair, or you're the third person in the triangle. 80% of an audience will tell me they've been affected by infidelity. So this is not just a few rare rotten apples somewhere else. And that's when I said, this is touching us so much, so many people have been affected by this all over the world. The book is in 30 languages and I've been in 20 of those countries. I want to find a way to talk about it in a way that's going to be more helpful for all those who've been hurt by it or who've got lost by it or who

destroyed their entire lives because of it, there must be something that is less of a black and white model that embraces the complexity of this very complex, thin-called adultery that has existed since the day marriage was invented. Yes. And not to condone it, not to condone it. I think that's very important piece to add to it, is to really help people with it, rather than just say if it's good or bad. Right. Yeah, exactly. And you do help people with it so much.

So I just recommend that everyone read State of Affairs because people have this notion, well, if someone cheats on me, I'm gone. I'm out of the relationship, right? And so it doesn't have to be that way. Right. And Emily, and that if you stay, that you not experience it as a shame, if I had, especially as a woman,

the new mandate for the woman is to leave. But you know, it's not always so easy. Life is complicated. People have children who need two parents. People have economic realities. People have elderly parents living with them. It's not just so easy to get up and go And sometimes it's not easy to get up and go because you still care about the person and because the very person who cheated on you

May even also have been the one who took care of your elderly father or your alcoholic brother That is a mess and that has come to live with you for the past two years. They put it in the pandemic context Yeah, you know, so don't be ashamed over the strength of staying. It demands a lot to do that too. But get help, but there is hope. This is not the only form of betrayal in a relationship. It's all of that. Yeah.

That's always very complex, Esther. And I just think everyone does. Just please read State of Affairs, everybody. To read all of her books. And they could also get your game. It has such great questions in it. I've been reading and going through with my team. I thought we could play it.

Would you ask a question? Let's go. I guess you're going to do it. Let's play. After the break, Esther and I play her brand new game, where should we begin? And I ask you're my five quicky questions, so don't go away. You created this just from conversations with friends, right?

And sitting around and missing that connection. I created it. It was a pandemic project, really, because I missed intimacy, connection, my friends, dinner conversations. I look at relationships as stories. I look at stories as bridges that connect us and that create relationships. And I thought, I wanna create a game of stories.

But we must be find a way to do so, even if we are living in our confined realities, and ever more so now that we are reopening somewhat. And then I began to gather a group of friends in a little pod that was safe for us to be and we began to play with each other and to realize how many stories that were locked inside of us, that we could actually open up to each other and that we never knew of people that were, you know, to get out of the whole time. Then they were people playing it on a first date. Then people began to bring it to work. It was the questions of the podcast,

the questions of my clinical work, brought into a form of play. Play unlocks us. Play allows us to take risks. And I wanted to create a play experience. So, Wave, just people being more vulnerable and open and actually, because I don't want to bullshit Superficial. I've never been great at those kind of conversations.

Now I think more than ever we want that kind of connection. And people want deeper conversation and sometimes they don't know how to start. So these are very simple prompts that lead you to just tell stories and you're like, well the game is like it's everything you said, like a relationship is a story. And stories create relationships. They do. So let's explain.

You can play it in the simple version and in the committed version. The casual and the committed, you know. You can just take the cards and ask the questions because the questions in and of themselves are just fantastic. And then you can play it where you combine those story cards and the prompt cards. So the prompt card may say, share something that you've never set out loud or that you've never told anyone, or share something crazy. And the card may be, I can't believe I got away with or a habit that I secretly want to break, but that is crazy. So you connect from sweet stories, basically, that's the committed version.

But go ahead, you have it in front of you, then you start asking, because I can't find a whole bunch of you here. Yeah, so I have a sexual situation I've always wanted to try. Share something I pick one of these for. They get to be worked up. I wouldn't tell my mother. I tell her everything. I wouldn't tell my coworkers. They hear my whole sex life.

You've never told anyone that's changed my world view. I've kept a secret. So I pick one of those and I'd answer it. That's right. A sexual situation I've always wanted to try. I probably wouldn't tell my mother this, let's see. I've never been Esther, I'll tell you this, with like two men at once. I've dabble and it's always happened, maybe three men, that's what I would like.

The three-some scenario, but with other men. And what in that story, what is the imagination of the multiplicity of men that are there for you? You know what I think it is is that I'm a giver and I'm a pleaser. For me, I think just to practice receiving and opening up and I know exactly what I want. And it's just fighting people I can trust. So it's really about just like letting go to a deeper level where I really don't have to do anything in the moment. I'll give back after, but where I can receive all the pleasure. It's a very generous fantasy, actually.

You know, the fantasy of multiple partners who are there. And, you know, the beautiful thing about a fantasy is that you are at the same time the altar and the protagonist and the director. Exactly. You get to play all the rules. There is a whole set of questions that are about sex. They're the pink triangle. When you go to work, you can do the safe for work version or when you play with your kids, you take the pink triangles out. They are questions that I have worked with over the years that have been tested, you know, in my work.

They have the questions about the verbs that we discussed. What is the worst case I ever had? What is the weirdest date I've ever been on? What is the kink I least understand? Or it's not what is. The kink I least understand is, or the weirdest place I've been, that I have never told, that is crazy, that is naughty. You have the prompt that kind of gives an angle to the story.

So you can play the story multiple times, and it's always a different story. But the questions about sexuality are very, very revealing, but not in a sleazy way. Not in all. No, in fact, I want to say that there's only a small section that's about sex. I mean, so many of these are just, you could play with your family, you could play with everyone. There are 250 questions and 30 are about sex. Right.

That's it, you guys. 30 are about sex. Of course, those were the ones at the top of my deck, but I spend too much time worrying about. I was never the same after. I wish everyone would forget about the time that I, I was never the same after. I wish everyone would forget about the time that I, I wish I could get closure on. I mean to me, people right now, especially with people having more social anxiety and they're going out to parties or even going out

and dates, I love the idea. It comes with this great, like bring it out a day, like saying, hey, I have a fun game we can play. Lots of people have done it. It's a wonderful first first evening and it's a wonderful with the evenings to get a phone number I need to delete. I love that. A friendship I should end. A promise I have broken. An apology I owe. The hardest thing for me is a story that's being told about me that isn't true, but I've never bothered correcting. The part of me that doesn't want to become like my parents. Right.

These are the things, but also how great to find these out. Where I love about this game is that it's a tool that you could use to find out a lot of the answers that we don't often have these conversations with our partners. Let me marry them or with them forever. Like, I wish I knew about these things. So you're getting to know them, but it's also just a way to connect deeper. So in many ways it can be used for couples who've just gotten into the routine, and they're not talking anymore. Like, I never knew that about you, or when you're getting to know someone new.

It takes couples out of the routine of the way that they typically talk about things too. It elicits curiosity. When you play your part in structure and part in improvisation and it lets you take risks in places that you don't typically go. And it really takes people out of stockness when they are in the kind of rut of routine. For the people who are new, it gives a framework as to, it gives permission. Playing gives permission. And playing is very healing by the way, too. So I have always done play as part of my therapeutic work.

And then I thought, okay, I want to create that playful experience. You know, it doesn't arc in the way, you know, you've talked about the books and the game. And so where should we begin, you know, the podcast where you actually hear me work with couples where there has been in fidelity or couples who have sexual stalemates? That's not all of it, but that's a, if you want that very focus. And what you what I really see as an essential part of my work is helping people to have the conversations that they want to have that they don't know how to start and becoming more confident to have these conversations. And to see this as a direct link to opening things to get them to be better. Everybody wants to feel more confident and have better relationships and better sex.

And all of these different ways that I do it are really for that same goal. I hear so many people who have tolerated such bad situations internally or with others. Over years, when they never brought anything up and I'm just thinking, oh my god. We got a lot of questions from Instagram and I just want to answer one. How do you love when your anxiety gets in the way and makes you fear the worst? Yes. So the worst means I'm going to lose you. I'm going to lose you because you're going to get sick. I'm going to lose you because you're going to reject me. I'm going to lose you because you're going to betray me. Is that what we are talking about? That when I get attached, I immediately experience the fear of loss at the same time, which by the way, I think is part of love. Love comes with the fear of loss for everybody, but not everybody lives it on a daily basis all the time. So it's an issue of degree. It's not an issue of the fact that you experience that anxiety. That anxiety

is comes with. As I get close, I also am aware of what it would be not to have it. Everybody who has had a child understands that viscerally as well. If you want to look at it outside of Romantic, a lot of it is two parts, the part that you do with yourself and how you reassure yourself and how you ground yourself in reality and how you say, that is a fear, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I have had experiences like that, that doesn't mean this is what's going to happen now. My past is my past, my past is not my current reality all the time. And

the second part is with the partner and they go back and forth, it's not an either or or a first and second. What can we do to build trust in our relationships? Trust is an active engagement with the unknown, said Rachel Bord-Potsman. It's a leap of faith. If you need to know, you don't trust. So I trust the unknown. I trust that you will be there to the best ability that you can be there. But best ability that you can be there, but I also know that you could one day not be here because something could happen. How do you reassure me? How do you make me feel that you want to be here, that it's a choice, and that you affirm that choice all the time, and so do I.

So we deal with our anxieties around loss, rejection, feeling unworthy or unlovable, or feeling that every time we have loved something terrible happens, and this is bound to happen again, by grounding ourselves. You put your feet literally on the ground, your hands on your knees, you tuck the bony handles, you press on them so that you feel the contact of everything, your body parts with each other and the body with the ground, and then you talk to yourself and then you listen to yourself and then you talk to your partner and you hear what your partner tells you.

That's just the beginning of how you do it. You do it with songs, with poetry, with gestures, with touch. You know, a hand here is extremely important. A hand here is extremely important, and a hand underneath is extremely important for that anxiety. It deepens the breath, and as it deepens the breath, it alleviates the anxiety, it reduces the fear. So it's touch and talking and reassuring ourselves.

That's really, thank you so much Esther. Okay, so we have five quicky questions we ask all of our guests. Okay. We're going to ask you really quickly. What is your biggest turn on? I'm a total Sepiosexual, you know, brilliance, brilliance, with agility with words. The mind, the mind is my biggest turn. What's your biggest turn off?

Laziness, complacency, neglect, lack of room, lack of hygiene, and of a notion that you live and you don't see how other people see you. What makes good sex Ridden and melody They're meldy something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships If it doesn't feel right don't just stay there and take it I did a lot of that as a lot of women and a lot of young people have done. Yes What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? I would love to hear what you would answer on that one.

The first thing I would want people to know about sex is that you don't need to do sex to experience sex. That's great. I love it. Thank you, Esther, for being here. Esther, Perrell, where can people find you right now? I hope that games back in stock and people can buy it. Thank you, Esther, for being here. Esther, Perrell, where can people find you right now? I hope the game's back in stock and people can buy it. People can pre-order it. It will be back in a few weeks. We sold out so fast. But you go to my website. It is the gate to it all.

For the professionals, for the general public, for the online courses, for the podcasts, you can go to Spotify or anywhere where you listen to the podcasts. And I would hope when they we get to play together. What would be your number one? I would love to see you in person. I saw it really. It would be such a joy. But the number one thing I wish to everyone knew about sex, communication is lubrication. Talk about sex because it understands your beliefs around sex. Beautiful. And I'd also say go slow. That would be another one.

That would be the number one sex tip is to go five times slower. Just slow it down. We rush through sex. But if you're actually slow, then you can feel. I once did a session with 200 men, and that was the final sentence. You know, when they said, what does she want? What, you know, and it was a she in that instance,

it was a heteropression and I just said, what does she want? And it was a she in that instance. It was a heterop question. And I just said, slow down. Yeah. Go five times slower. Really, right? Because it's always rushing to the orgasm. It's not about orgasms.

It's about the experience. So, oh, Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Yeah. Bye-bye. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily.

Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts and share this with a friend or a partner. Believe me, if you got something out of this episode, they will too. We released two to three episodes a week, find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter. It's all at Sex with Emily. If you'd like to ask me a question about sex or dating relationships, email me. Feedback at sexwithemlee.com or sexwithemlee.com slash ask Emily. And check out my website.

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