Sex With Emily - Understanding Sex Addiction with Marnie Breecker

Episode Date: November 8, 2017

On today’s show, Emily’s joined by Marnie Breecker, sex addiction therapist and founder of the Center for Relational Healing, to talk in depth about the controversial issues surrounding sex addiction and relationships.  Emily and Marnie talk about the distinction between a sex addict and a cheater, different behavior and attachment issues, and their impact on the way we navigate relationships. Plus, they give a crash course in IMAGO therapy–– which can help you communicate better with everyone in your life. Thank you for supporting our sponsors who help keep the show FREE: POP TV - Hot Date, Fab Fit Fun, Mystery Vibe, Intensity Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily, and today's show I'm joined by Marny Breaker, a sex addiction therapist and founder of the Center for Relational Healing. We covered a lot of timely and fascinating issues surrounding sex addiction and relationships. We talked about the distinction between a sex addict and a cheater. We discussed different behavior and attachment issues and how they impact the way we navigate relationships. We also give a crash course in a Mago Therapy, which will help you better communication with everyone in your life. Enjoy the show. Thanks for listening. Why is that mock our sacred institutions? Betrubized, they call them in a fight on day. Hey, Avaline, you got a boyfriend? Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken,

he thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair stand. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common, Avaline? What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks? Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'm off here, I'm so broke. Being bad feels pretty good. You know, Avaline's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between. For more information, go to sexwithemily.com where you can easily subscribe to our podcast, which I love.

We do two shows a week. We're having some amazing guests lately. I hope you've been enjoying the shows. And thank you to everybody who reviews the show that's very helpful when you review it on iTunes. And anywhere that you listen, I appreciate it. And also check out our website. We've got a lot of new blogs going up every week

and posts that will help you have better sex and relationships and also be sure to follow me on social media. Because that's a good time. It's at Sex with the Alien, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and Twitter. So I'm gonna move right along to my guest here. I have Marney Breaker here. Marney founded the center for relational healing.

The website is L-A-C-R-H.com. We're gonna be giving that out again. And Marney's a licensed marriage and family therapist certified sex addiction therapist, the founder of the Center for Relational Healing in West Los Angeles. And she also specializes in healing relationships that are impacted by the trauma of sex addiction,

infidelity, and betrayal. And I am so excited that you're here. Marney and I met at a dinner. Like we were just randomly at a dinner, having a best dinner ever, like literally had a blast, and then they find out like what she does, and we were talking about what I did for living, and I'm like, you have to be on the show,

because first of all, she's genius. I mean, she started her own business, and she's just so much fun and blast, like we're in no where friends, it's gonna be like lifelong friends. But also, I started thinking about the show. I really don't think in the 12 years I've been doing this, that I've had sex addiction specialist,

therapist on the show. But I did, it was a long time ago, and I feel like with everything going on right now, it's the perfect time to have you here. Not only in our news, we talk about like, we're gonna get into what's happening with Harvey Weinstein and all these things happening with all these allegations against a lot of powerful men

in Hollywood who have been accused of sex addiction or alleged sex addiction. But also porn, I mean in the 12 years I've been doing the show too. It's like the way porn's changed. I would like infiltrated our lives. It's how a lot of kids are learning about sex for the first time. So there's just a lot to unpack with you, Marnie. Marnie, you are the perfect person to be here and do it with me. So welcome to the show.

Thank you. Hi. Hi. Okay. So, Marnie. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Hi. Okay. So, Marie, tell me how did you get into sex addiction? There be training all that.

I fell into sex addiction training. I was in graduate school and I needed to get a training ship in order to graduate. Essentially needed like 600 hours. And so the only place that was really available to me at the time was Delamau Hospital in Torrance, which was an inpatient psychiatric hospital. And so I worked there and at the very end, they put me on the sexual recovery program and the National Trauma Center. And I never would have wanted to work in sex addiction.

It's not something I ever would have thought that I would do. You did it in history, right? No history, nothing personal in my life, thankfully. And when I was working on that unit, I realized there was a huge correlation between trauma and sex addiction. And so I was able to really develop the empathy,

I think, that you need in order to be able to work with that kind of population. So you're saying a lot of people that who experience trauma, they say, one in three women has experience, is it some kind of trauma or sexual trauma, right? It doesn't have to be sexual trauma. But is it one in three is,

I thought it was one in three have experience, sexual trauma or is it? But we're talking about, well, it's any trauma, but also we're talking about men experiencing trauma. Men two one and five or something. Yes. So you realize then working in that all these people with sexual trauma a lot of it Did go back to sexual sex addiction. Yeah, so that's what you worked on. Okay. Got it. That makes total sense And so can you define sex addiction? So the best way to make somebody who's who's not familiar with sex addiction, understand it, would be it's just like alcohol addiction or food addiction or drug addiction. So it's basically engaging in some kind of

sexual behavior when you are acting in incongruence with your own values and beliefs, when you're continuing the behavior despite negative consequences in your life, when you are making repeated efforts to stop, you get caught and you say, I'm never doing this again, you find yourself doing the same thing the next day, and also needing more. So tolerance and withdrawal are like the two foundations

of dependency on any drug or substance or behavior. And so sex addict needs more and more and more to get the same goal. What I withdraw though, because people say that's kind of a reason why, when people who say sex addiction doesn't really exist because there's no withdrawal symptoms, isn't that? People do say that, and it's not the same as maybe what a drug addict would experience with like the shaking and really need to go to detox, but sex addicts actually do withdraw.

And you might see a lot more like psychosomatic symptoms and a lot of anxiety, but you do see shaking. Right, and then I replace it right with something else, so you can kind of like, but you do see shaking. I think every place is right with something else, and that kind of like part of it. So my thing is that I'm wondering about sex addiction. So all these other, when you say just alcoholism arts, like people are addicted to food or anything else, I mean, it's really just trying to sue ourselves, right? Kind of mask a lot of emotions, because we don't really know how to deal with a lot of emotions.

Would you say that a lot of it comes back to that, whatever it is, however it manifests in the world, it's sort of some maladaptive way of coping. Self-sue thing, trying to regulate oneself, trying to ground them oneself. So what about everything that's going on lately? We could just jump into this about all these public figures who are being called out for extremely inappropriate illegal, harassing behavior.

Typically, I don't know. We have a lot of international listeners. I'm just wondering if we need to break down and describe the situation. But what's happening with Harvey Weinstein, which isn't a new story that's happening with a man in power, who these allegations come out that there's been abuse, sexual abuse of victims who

are work for him, or who are making who are, you know, work for him or who's making unwanted advances even after they were, you know, projecting him. And I look at it and I think, you know, I don't know that it's sex addiction. It just seems like it's, I could just, you could so easily see like the suffering that a lot of these men are going through. It's a power trip or it's a ratatized, you know, a ratatized, a ratatized, a ratatized expression. Right.

I mean, what, how would you describe what's going on with a lot of this? Then he'd get it, get into it. Well, the first thing I'd say is that there's been no evidence, at least, that I have seen in the media that points to Harvey Weinstein having a sex addiction. I know that that's something that he claimed, and that was sort of being thrown around. The reality is, based on all of the allegations that have come out, and everything that's been reported by the victims, he's a sex offender. He's a predator.

He's a rapist. That, he's a sex offender, he's a predator, he's a rapist. That is not what a sex addict is. Sex addicts might commit egregious acts against their partner because a partner is not signing up for being with someone who's going to cheat on them and do all these awful things behind their back. But the addict themselves is having consensual sex or looking at pornography and masturbating or hurting themselves, but they're not raping a prostitute. If they were doing that, they wouldn't be a sex addict.

They're an offender. Okay. So then the treatment, let's say he goes off to like sex addiction treatment, that's just sort of a, you know, that's the right, that would not be the appropriate place. Well, where would you send them? There are offender programs that specialize in working with sex offenders. So let's say, even taking it off of Harvey Weinstein, but all the other people have been accused, like severely accused, like not, I people have been accused, severely accused.

Now everyone's coming out, they've had instances with a lot of other celebrities and directors, but let's say people who are the Harvey Weinstein or the Anthony Weiner or the... Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby. And these men are older, they've had their... I mean, I just think, God, this is stuff

been going on since their childhood. I see their wounds from their moms, their dads, whatever's been going on. At this age, when these things come out for these men, what kind of treatment do they need? Like, what does that really look like? So it's a hard question to answer just because I don't believe you really know what's going on with someone

until you get them into treatment and you can do a thorough assessment. But what I would say is that these men have a tremendous amount of narcissistic traits. And they are wounded. They obviously have not a very good or strong sense of self, and they are desperate to get validation to use their power, to control others.

And what they need is, and actually, I think this is really important to say, a lot of these men, truly when they defend their position, or they say like she wanted it, or they don't realize how egregious and predatory their behavior is, they're believing what they're saying. They really do believe it. That's a thing. Is it narcissism?

It's kind of, what else would it be? They feel entitled. There's a tremendous amount of entitlement. Right. Adicts have, and offenders have tremendous amount of distortions, distorted thinking. And they convince themselves. They rationalize, they justify, they minimize.

They make their behavior make sense. And so if a woman is saying to them, no, I don't want you, they'll be able to sort of change that or reframe that too. Oh, she really wants that she's playing hard to get. And they feel like they're really charming. They'll defend themselves and say, I'm a really charming person. Women really like me. Because they've been telling themselves these messages their entire life.

It truly is, it's not just their coping skills, it's coping the way their way of life is built around this way of thinking and so they hire all the yes people and Surround them and keeps reinforcing that but it's kind of like the house of cards, right? I mean just really one day it's going to you know I eventually does for a lot of these people so they can get very far in life these men But it's all men. Yeah, there are women who are narcissists But would you say that's kind of the main? You see a lot, my experience in what we see in the media is that we see a lot more men in power

abusing women. And again, we definitely have to acknowledge that there are women. I was just watching some documentary the other day about a teacher who was having sex with like a 15 year old student. And so it does happen. It does not happen as often.

We do not see that power differential as much with women. Right. So, what do you think that is? It's a great question. I think that if we look historically, men have been in more of a position of dominance and power and women being more submissive and feeling like we have to do whatever it takes in order to get ahead. You know, men have been business owners and entrepreneurs

and successful and powerful. People for a very long time, Women have to fight for that. They had to earn that. Yeah, it's only in the last 30, 40 years that women have really been in the workplace, right? I mean, you think about it. I mean, I've said this, but when I started out working, in the 90s, it was like, yes,

I understand that this superior male superior might want to sleep with me. He's flirting with me, something's happening, but I'm not going to do that. There are no blow jobs that's going to happen at this dinner, this meal, but it's, we'll sit down, you might want to, but I know we're going to do a deal together,

something's going to happen, you can flirt with me all you want, but I'm smart, we might even be friends after, and I just kind of put up with it. But imagine it in your hotel. But imagine if that person was actually threatening to ruin your career or to not allow you to succeed or to have that, and there was a way that you can do something to prevent that. I mean, it's hard for me to conceptualize too,

because I can't imagine being in that situation and allowing that to happen. People look at Hollywood. People move from these small rural towns and they come and they'll, I was from Michigan. That was my favorite disco. This guy was like, I can't believe you didn't want to go.

And we have had a few things. I was like, I was shocked that a man that was 10 years older at the time seemed like my dad would have like 22. He's like, whatever. He's 35, I was like, what? But yeah, you just don't know. And you think I really want this, I'm really driven. I want my- Also, predators, I think, I mean, listen,

they come in all shapes and sizes, and they're not just the Harvey Weinstein's. I mean, it's so, when it happens in the media, obviously, people are really listening and looking. But I remember, when this whole, that me two thing that started happening in social media, when that started to go on when my best friends and I were talking

and she remembered an incident that had happened to her. And I said, oh, I'm so glad that nothing's really happened to me and she's like, Marne, do you not remember that experience that you had years ago at the standard hotel with this massage therapist? And I won't go into the details of it because it was really horrific. And I ended up actually getting a lawyer.

And you just blocked it. I repressed it. You repressed it. My friend had to remind me of this horribly traumatic experience. And by the way, another friend and I were the ones that were getting the massage, were in the same room. And he did nothing, this guy did nothing to her. And so I'm saying that because my mother had just died, I was in a really traumatized state.

And I believe that predators know and they sense the vulnerability and they are Praying that's what they do. They know who their victims are. Yeah, they can write they do. I guess for some of them They do I think really someone with Harvey Weinstein, you just kind of like everyone was a victim. It didn't even matter But you're right. There's there's there's spectrum right of this. Okay, so this is Marney Breaker. Hi. We're on Instagram live right now And he was any questions Marney is a sex addiction specialist. We have a question. Are there warning signs for sex addiction? For sex addiction or sex addiction?

Or sex addiction. Yeah, sex-evending. Yeah. Well, they're two very different things. So if we're talking about sex addiction, I actually wrote an article. I should send it to Emily. I got to find it, but I wrote an article for single women about how to know what to look for.

And when somebody becomes sexual or sexualized as a conversation really fast, that's actually a big red flag right off the bat. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sexualizing something very quick is not like just like, hey, we're going to bone after dinner, but more like, I'll give you a fancy example. That steak looks like what I want to, yeah, I don't know. Well, yeah, that actually, I know where you're getting at, but like I'll give you a fancy sample. It looks like what I wanted Yeah, I don't know well Yeah, actually I know you were getting up, but yes that could be an example

But it doesn't have to be it could be subtle years ago when I was dating I was on that that J date site You know many years ago um and this guy and I were talking we're chatting it was kind of late It was maybe like 11 11 30 at night and he I I send something to him and he's like, can you call me? He wanted to get on the phone right away. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, but when I spoke to him on the phone, I actually agreed to get on the phone with him. I probably shouldn't have met that, but I did.

I got on the phone with him. And he disclosed to me in that conversation that he's a sex addict. And I had a weird feeling. As soon as he wanted to get on the phone so quick, there's like an urgency. There's an urgency. There's an urgency. There's not a lot of boundaries. You can see that with sex addicts. They push your boundaries.

They're not really respectful when you're saying no or you're setting limits. When somebody is constantly lying or keeping secrets, even hearing about something with a pretty significant trauma background, not that all of them will become sex addicts or drug addicts, but it is something to be aware of and to see how did the trauma impact this person now as an adult. And then how does it, can you describe some of the common sexual addiction behaviors, what that looks like? When they're coming to you, when they've been addicted to prostitutes or porn or...

Yeah, so I'd say the most common would be porn, compulsive masturbation, prostitutes, S-corts, massage parlors, strip clubs. Those would be the biggest. The top ones. So it's really not even with the partners, necessarily. With their own partners? Yeah. No.

Sex addiction. It's always, it's really not. Like, their partners are separate from it. We get so many questions. We were like, my partner, why just porn? Is it a problem? How do we know if it's a problem? So I feel like a lot of times it's just also,

which I've had our sexual couples that women just have a hard time that my partner's looking at anything else that's getting them turned on and it's not me. Well, that's a whole different issue. The reality is with sex addiction. It's a disease that occurs in secrecy. So when someone's looking at a lot of porn and they're keeping it from their partner,

likely there is something to hide. You know, we're not going to get into a whole conversation about whether or not pornography is. Go to bed. Exactly. But when you're in a relationship with somebody, keeping a secret like that you look at a lot of pornography and that you're masturbating into it,

even to the point where you can't really perform in your own relationship, that's a problem. And so to get back to the person's question about signs, I would say that when you're in a relationship or you're getting to know somebody who is incredibly secretive and they are not disclosing and they're not vulnerable, those are some big signs. Not vulnerable about anything. Can't connect. Sex dictates an intimacy disorder.

That's what it is. It's not about sex. And that's a lot of your work at the Center for Relational Healing is intimacy disorders. I'd love to talk about that, intimacy disorders. It's not just sex addiction. How else people like attachment? It's all about attachment. Like attachments making it come back.

It's always been around. Don't you feel like everyone's in attachment right now? Should be a song. Which, oh my god, we've been writing some jingles in here. It's like a song, a rap about attachment. You might be like, what is it? Like, anxious avoid it. I don't know. You know about that.

Yeah, I do, I know stuff. I know some things about some things, of course. No, but like, okay, is addiction, physical and mental disorder, and is it genetic? Addiction can definitely be genetic. I mean, you see it intergenerationaly within families. So you will often see, or I'll see in my office, for instance, people that come in and there is a history of addiction in their history. There is definitely a lot of research that does show like from a genetic standpoint, it can be inherited. But also, that can be,

you know, you grow up with a parent who has an addiction and they have maladaptive way of coping and you see that they don't have to regulate themselves sooth and as a child you kind of pick up on those things. And in terms of the attachment piece, when you are young and you're either enmeshed by a parent and smothered or you're abandoned and neglected, that's going to impact how you can attach as you get older and it can often make somebody love addicted, it can make someone love avoid and it can make someone sex addicted.

There's so many things that can happen. It is, I would say, a physiological and an emotional disorder for sure because most people that have an actual addiction, even though we talked earlier about that withdrawal, they are withdrawn when they're not getting it. For them, it might be incredible anxiety, panic attacks, depression. So that's the physiological piece that I'm referring to. People get headaches and digestive issues, and my clients are in tremendous distress,

and it's both physiological as well as emotional. Can somebody be addicted to love, Marney? Yeah, they call it love addiction, but really it's more being addicted to a person and to the attention and to the adoration and to the validation. And really when somebody doesn't have a sense of self themselves, like they can't really esteem themselves, then they're looking to others to esteem them. So when they're getting lots of attention from somebody and they feel really great and

desirable, like they're on cloud nine and they're happy. And then if they lose that or the person they're interested in is not returning that interest or they're rejecting them, they're happy. And then if they lose that or the person that they're interested in is not returning that interest or they're rejecting them, they could fit. This is a person that literally can become so depressed that they become suicidal. Like we see a lot of love addiction in inpatient and intensive outpatient settings. So don't you, I'm just thinking about social media now. And I'm just thinking about how everybody loves to blame social media for everything. And we're all on social media.

This is so meta. But can you just see that that's sort of like like in Instagram like or like in your friends just sort of a the the manifestation or the same kind of thing that we look at when people used to just want compliments from someone or you want like that. I used to call affirmation nuggets like with my boyfriend years ago I was dating I was like just tell me I'm hot today. Just tell me I'm pretty. Tell me like me like you need a nugget. I'm like just one. You know it's like I wanted that affirmation. And of course I want it in other ways, but I feel like now,

it's just such a much larger challenge, I think, for a lot of people. It can become more of an addiction, checking how many likes and how many. Not just, oh, that. Because you really think it fills you up. So it's almost like this outward way to kind of display this thing that everyone's kind of dealing with inside already. Like do you like me? Do you approve of me?

Am I loved? I don't love myself. But now there's this hour way of people looking at it. Like on my Instagram, well, I've got 70,000 followers. So that's what, like I people say to me, I was at a party the night, this guy, like 300,000 followers, like 70,000, not bad. And I was like, what?

Like, I might not want to scale, or you don't even have to see, like, you know, people are measured through doing that for you now want to scale or you don't even have to see, like, you know, people are measured. They're doing that for you now. I just, I don't care about, you should tell your friends to follow me. No, I really don't care. No, but, oh, what's your Instagram?

The Instagram is the Center for Relational Healing. Oh, the Center for Relational Healing. Ooh, that'll get us into it. Yeah, when is sex addiction different than just cheating in a marriage? Thanks, K-Po. Thank you, K. I love it.

That's a great question. Do you want me to address that now? Yeah, let's go to that. Forget the-Po. Thank you, K. I love it. That's a great question. Do you want me to address that now? Yeah, let's go to that. Forget the whole Instagram. But you don't know what I'm saying. Yeah, I had a story about that. Love yourself.

Yeah, love yourself. You don't need likes in order to be loved. Oh, you don't. Oh, right. That's a movement. That is. That's a T-shirt. It is.

Totally. She got it done. We should make it. Done. Yeah, okay. Write that down. Go. Okay, so I'm glad that you asked that, K, because the reality is that one of the reasons that I think sex addiction loses some credibility is that oftentimes when somebody gets caught cheating or engaging in some kind of egregious behavior, sexually, sex addiction gets blamed or it's often thrown out as the reason behind it.

And the truth is that just because someone cheats does not make them as sex addict by any means, in fact, two different people can be engaging in the same sexual behaviors and even look like they're both addicts. And one is not an addict at all, meaning that they are making a conscious choice to do it. They're not feeling guilt and shame after the behavior. They're not saying, I'm never going to do this again. They're not acting against their own value system. Whereas an addict truly is not, they might love their partner. They might believe in every bit of their core that cheating and betraying the person they love the most is actually totally wrong and horrible and crushing.

And they can't stop the behavior. They need to get that hit, just like a drug addict needs to get that hit. But for most people in fidelity or people come into one of your programs, which I love that you have actually recovery programs for people who have going through trauma or, you know, through cheating through infertility, but I think it's so hard to say, like most the cases are the percentage of the cases, but oftentimes, would you say that a lot of people in fidelity are sex addicts? It just seems like from what I hear mostly, it's more like they wanted love attention from someone else.

It wasn't so much of a sex addiction. I do think that the reality is that people make conscious choices to cheat. When they feel like they're not getting their needs met in a relationship, when kids come into the picture and a mother or a parent, a partner is not so much available to their husband anymore to be there all the time. That often actually engages somebody in distancing themselves and starting affairs, going, you know, getting it elsewhere. But that's not an addiction.

It's a choice and it's a terrible choice. And we see a lot of disconnect in our society and today and instead of couples coming together when things are tough or when they're struggling, they're moving further and further apart and people make that choice. What kind of help can people get if they're seeing some signs of sex addiction in the relationship? There are, you know, for them, I think both ways for themselves or for their partner.

There are so many treatment centers available now and places that specialize in betrayal, trauma and sex addiction and fidelity. My center here in Los Angeles, the center for relational healing. Center for relational healing, Marty's in LA, it's amazing. You should go there, check it out. If you not, if you've had drama, not just to hang out and say hi,

although she's lovely. Well, thank you. We, I will say that I have a phenomenal staff and I take such incredible pride in the work that we do, but we're not the only people, obviously, that do this work. There are certified sex addiction therapists around the country as well as abroad.

And there are partner specialists. I'm actually a certified clinical partner specialist as well. And there's an organization that trains therapists to be able to work with the cheated or betrayed partner. It's actually pretty easy to find help if you get online and you do a Google search. And then the type of treatment you get really depends on the acuity of what's involved. Like if you've got a full-blown sex addiction case, sometimes outpatient therapy once a week is not going to be enough.

Group therapy is important, 12-step programs, sometimes intensive outpatient therapy. It just really depends on what you're looking at. Okay, well I'm curious about the programs that you have because you have like groups for couples who are dealing with like you've intimacy coaching and healing workshops for couples specifically dealing with infidelity, which I just find I didn't really know that that existed. And I feel like the reason I thought this would be so relevant, I get so many, I mean, for everybody knows somebody who's cheated, they've been cheated on.

And we hear from people all the time who say, well, it's been a year and I forgave him or I let it go. And I say, you've got to heal. You can't rebuild trust on your own. You always need to get help for that because it's just not gonna come back. Tell me about your programs for couples because again, like I say, you gotta get help

and sometimes maybe just going to therapist once a week might not even be enough but to have a group and have their program. Tell me about how that works for couples. What did it look like? Okay, so I will answer that. There was something I wanted to say that I felt so so much. God, it's the worst. There's so much talk about on this podcast. Oh my that. I just, there was something I wanted to say that I felt so much. I was so much.

God, it's the worst. There's so much talk about on this podcast. Oh my God. A few people. Yes. Okay. Can you define the difference between being a sex addict and a sex pervert? And they probably mean sex offender, I'm thinking, or a sexual deviant?

A sexual deviant? Yeah, because I guess it would depend on how we're defining pervert because, you know, somebody who is, for instance, a lawyer who is looking at people like peeping in the tide people's windows, things like that, or someone who's engaging in fraudorism, which is touching another person without their permission. You see that like encrowded rooms or like on the subway where someone's rubbing up against you and it can sort of be under the guise of, oh, it's just crowded in here, but it's an intentional conscious thing to do. That's perverted and that definitely would fall into the category of sex offending.

Sex addiction, there could be people that have fetishes that are sex addicts, but I certainly wouldn't pathologize that and say that anybody's fetish is necessarily perverted. So I do think that they're pretty drastically different things. Marny Breaker, this is, I love our discussion. So great, thank you for being here. Marny from the Center for is, I love our discussion. So great.

Thank you for being here. Marny from the Center for Relational Healing. We're going to take a quick break. Thank you, everybody, for supporting our sponsors. They help keep the show free. And you know, I never tag about any products or services that I am not truly obsessed with, actually. I have to be like obsessed for me to work with you.

So just so you know, I'm not telling anything. No bad news here, Marny. Everything's good. All good products. When you get to go into the sex closet after. The sex closet? If you want to. If you so choose, wash them.

I'm on the air, but yeah, I do. Okay, we'll be right back. Okay, Marney, let's talk about how couples can repair after dealing with infertility, the trauma of infertility in a relationship. And can they repair? They can repair. It is a lot of work and it's a lot of effort, a lot of money, a lot of time, resources, and a lot of pain.

The first thing that I want to say is that most partners that have been cheated on or have experienced betrayal trauma in their relationship will say that, well, of course, they're not happy that their husbands or their partners cheated on them. Nobody wants that. But that's not really the part that's the inexcusable part. That's not the part that's traumatic. The part that's traumatic is the broken trust. It's that shattered sense of what you thought was true is not anymore.

And partners go back and look at everything that they thought once was their reality, and they realize that it was not their reality at all. And so to really recreate trust and reestablish intimacy is the goal of relational healing. Tell me how couples can rebuild trust in this process. So when couples first come in typically, what we usually see is the attic comes in because they were caught. Every once in a while, very rarely. The attic are so much cheated, they might not be called an attic. Exactly. Yeah, the person who has acted out sexual out right they'll come in and usually they've been caught And so their partner will know something they might have seen a receipt for something they might have gotten a phone bill

They might have gotten a receipt are used to be back in the day was a receipt now. It's the phone right right or the something from the internet like Pictures pop up or somebody sees like the history. That's a big one, looking at their partner's history. The brows are. Right? Yeah, people don't delete their histories. And so usually a partner discovers something and then that's what gets the acting out partner into therapy.

But usually that's just the tip of the iceberg, what's been discovered, there's usually a lot more. At least with addiction, if you are dealing with a couple that's just dealing with infidelity, which is still horrible, I don't mean to say just, but if that really, maybe it was an isolated affair or somebody was seeing, was engaging in something for a short period of time, and it's really an isolated thing. You're not looking at addiction and you don't always

get more information. There's not always more than just what that issue was that the partner discovered, but with sex addiction, you really are typically looking at years of acting out and secrets and lies. And so one of the first things that happens is an addict will be working with his therapist to prepare what's called a formal disclosure. And that's essentially an opportunity for him to come in with like a written list. Often it's a company pie a polygraph. They'll have to take this polygraph you know before after. And they will read this list to their partner.

And the reason for this, some people think this is crazy, that's gotta be so painful and it's so awful. The truth is the partner has the right to know the truth about the relationships, they can make an informed decision about what they wanna do. So they're like, so it'd be like, give me an example of a disclosure.

So well, they're usually pretty long, but it might start with, in March of 1996, I met a woman at a bar when I was on a work vacation and we went up and had oral sex and vaginal sex in my hotel room and it was unprotected. Okay. And then they keep going. And then there was this time after work

when I met some, right? Yeah. And it could be, I mean, I just did a disclosure not too long ago. I mean, there was somebody that disclosed hundreds of partners and he's been married, you know, for, I think it's been 30 years or something like that. And so how does, how do you recover? How do you recover? And his partner was, I'm assuming, had a heterosexual, heterosexual, yeah. I mean, she just melted the gate and it does. and it does he not get a break? Like if there's that many things, 30 years, can I break for some lunch here? I mean... The disclosure itself, to be taken break?

No, no, but we're allowed to. The partner calls the shots, and if they need to take a break for any reason, of course, we stop it. The mouth the gate. They just be like, what? Like, one of them will be bad, but if there's like 50, I mean... It's awful. I actually have a disclosure coming up this coming week.

I will say even as a therapist, it's probably the most difficult thing that I do because imagine if it's so hard for me to sit and listen to this, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like, not just for the partner. That's horrendous. But also, if the addict is actually doing this, that means that they have come to some place in their recovery and healing where they realize how

important it is that they give their partner this information. There's some degree of empathy, and it's torturous for them to be doing this. They're looking at the person that they love more than anything and they're saying, I did all these horrible things. I put you in danger. I put your health at risk. I was having all this unprotected sex or I brought people into our home or I introduced people to our children.

And so to hold that as a therapist is really painful. God, it's so true. We can't even imagine what you hear. It is torturous. I'd all sides of it because you have the empathy as well. You do have empathy. So I'm wondering, God, my head is like exploding right now because I'm just thinking about all the different kind of things that can go that are challenging in relationships around sex, around addiction, around intimacy, around attachment. I mean, all the challenges that people have in a relationship, and we all have, life is about suffering, right?

So we all have challenges. We do. Some people handle them in different ways. Some people experience more challenges than others. But really, I feel I've gotten to the place where I realize that we're putting this planet to heal. To heal from our childhood, to heal from whatever wounds we have, and that is the process, that's why we're here. So how could we work with children today? Is there some kind of tools or parents?

Any kind of work parents can do around children suffering to kind of prevent this. Is it about education? Because I just see so many friends that were parents doing the best of their ability, but their kids are suffering as well. It's such a huge topic and I'm even out thinking just now is that I actually think that- I wasn't going to go there, but I can't help it. It's important, but you know, I think it's actually worse now than it was because of social media. In other words, parents are putting kids in front of TVs and video, and they're having so much exposure, and kids are growing up wanting to get likes

And with the snapchat and with Instagram and the selfies the selfie culture. It's creating so much narcissism Right, I was outside my office the other day and I saw this girl with like a little mid-drift top and she had her phone And she was like posing and then pulling her shirt down to show more cleavage I had no idea what she was doing with those pictures, but I'm just thinking this is our culture now This is our culture now. It's really upsetting. You're right. It's more so like if we didn't have narcissism as a problem before, it's just like ten

bullets. So yeah, you're right. It is a bigger issue, but I just think you're right. The problem is today, I'm kind of grateful now for my childhood drama. Me too. Totally. So thank God there wasn't like other things on top of it, you're right. But you know what, what I do think parents can do is teach children how to deal with pain

and suffering. Like you were talking about, teach them how to have what's called emotional regulation. How do you tolerate negative feelings in a way that's not going to take you out and make you feel like you do need to, you know, use some sort of a mind altering substance or behavior? Related emotional regulation that's exactly what it is because that's just tolerance. There was an article in New York Times a few weeks ago about anxiety, like all these kids today, why there's so much more anxiety today than there was before. I always had anxiety personally as a child, but no, but it is true now that kids, because of whatever, whatever's going on, could be media, could be

that there's so many, so much more pressure on kids to succeed today and to get into schools. But that, that it's really about, yeah, learning how to regular emotions a young age and not just numbing out on your phone, because now it's so much easier to numb out, right? Like, you could just do it. And in TV, and I mean, there's so many ways to numb out video games. It's another big one when I see kids at restaurants. I don't know if you could pay attention. You look around, you see families and like parents are on their phones, then kids have

the video games and I'm thinking, oh my God, talk about intimacy disorders. Like, this is creating so many problems in terms of learning how to become intimate, you know? Exactly, we are heading to see, yeah, soothing. Sitting and like, think about, we used to go, you went out for dinner by yourself, for breakfast by yourself, you might have a newspaper with you or a book. Now, whoever is sitting by themselves and not looking at their phone. Exactly, right?

Sometimes you just be like, put the menu down, you might even look around the restaurant. Right, you use the like trees or look outside. You would. Smile at somebody. You don't smile, you don or look outside. You would. Smile at somebody. You don't smile. You don't look up. We're all on our phones. Talk about intimacy disorders.

How would you even define that? I just just said data series of people who were like before I got into this work emotionally blocked, emotionally unavailable. And really it's about intimacy. Yeah, there's a term called intimacy anorexia. And where does that come from? Tell me about intimacy anorexia. I think it's never.

Well, it's a lot of what you talked about, an attachment issue. So for instance, if somebody grew up in a family where their primary caregivers are not giving, they're neglecting them. It could be because the parents are working three, four jobs in order to put food on the table. It could be because the parents have a mental illness. They have an addiction. They're just not present. Whatever it is, they feel rejected or neglected.

Our need, our number one most primal need is a human being is to connect and to be loved. So important. And so we grow up and it's not like we don't want that connection. We do, we crave it, we desire it. But we can be so afraid of being neglected again and abandoned again that it creates this fear like I'm not gonna get close to people.

A ban on issues. Right, and so that can be sort of the intimacy and our ex-seal, like I'm not letting you in, I'm not gonna be vulnerable. I'm not gonna be vulnerable, I'm not pulling myself to the judges' judgment, I'm gonna be trying to, right? Which I think is like just what, so many. I wanna say the majority of people,

I know, we do have so many people. Many people. But then again, all we hear is like you just said, the healing, how it really works, is that we are all deeply craving love and connection. Like that's all we want. This is the most alone, I think culture in America, we live so separate from everybody else,

we're not near our families, we all moved away, we don't have the community, we don't like share homes with each other, we don't, we're like very isolated already. And then now I think the impact of having the internet in our homes and TV, social media, all that stuff is driven a further wedge between us and really feeling authentic connection and relationships that very much and that's also,

that also say you're gonna have to build a village for people who's gonna come stay at your center. At the center right now, I've actually thought about sometimes somebody of her residential treatment center, but there's so many and I can't take that on right now, but I've got a lot of other things going on. There's a false sense of intimacy again that comes from technology and the internet,

like the advent of the internet was a huge reason why pornography addiction became so big. You know, people started choosing to be at home where they could, you know, it's affordable, it is anonymous, and there's one other, a, I can't think of what it is, but in any event. Ainal? No. Does it say accessible, oh, accessible, anonymous, and affordable. And people choose to be at home with their, their pornography rather than being out there

have, you know, going on dates, being out with their friends, being intimate and true intimacy. So people develop these relationships in their homes where they don't have to leave. And this becomes their sense of intimacy. These people in these films, they're not going to leave them, they're not going to hurt them, they're not going to put them down, they're not going to reject them. But they're still getting that, yeah, they're still getting off of it. Or it doesn't mind. God, this is all such good stuff. Thank you, Marnie. I feel like we're going to move into some e-bals because I want you to help me answer some questions

here from the listeners, but this has been such a great discussion and I love that you live here because you're gonna come back on the show. Marney Breaker, the Center for Relational Healing, it's lacrh.com and your Instagram and all that you wanna give all that out, we can also put it on our website. You can put it on our website.

Okay, so thank you, Marney, this is amazing. So now we're gonna go into some e-bals. So if you have a question you want can put it on the website. Okay, so thank you, Marney. This is amazing. So now we're going to go into some emails. So if you have a question you want me to answer on the show, that's amazing. Just, you can text me, you guys. It's so easy. Just text Ask Emily one word to 7979. And you'll immediately get a link back.

And it's, you'll open that link and it'll fill it a form and send in your question. You can also access that same form from the sexwithamely.com website via the Ask Emily tab. And as always include information that will help me gender your age where you live and how you listen to the show. Hi Emily, I think I'm a sex addict but I can't afford a therapist. I don't want my wife to know about this. Are there bibliotherapy resources or other resources I can access to treat my sex addiction? What

steps can I begin to take on my own? Thank you, Lee 48 Toronto. Lee, I'm so glad that you reached out and there are resources. If you don't have the financial means to go and see a specialist, my first suggestion would be get to a 12-step meeting immediately. SA, go online to SA or essay.org. They are all over. There's phone meetings and computer meetings and lots of meetings in person. And you can get, they're essentially free of charge. And you will connect with a lot of other people

in a confidential environment and get a tremendous amount of support, work the steps. There's also tons of books out there that you can read. I will say that while I understand not wanting to tell your wife at some point, it is the secrecy that's going to keep you from being able to connect to your wife and from really healing. So eventually I would consider letting her in and sharing with her.

Thank you. That is a great point. And did you say S-L-A-A? Like sex and love addicts and others? S-L-A is another one. Okay. So you were saying S-A-A? Yes.

Okay. So I think that that's just the key here. We think that these secrets, you know, like they say in 12, you're just as sick as your secrets, that the more we reveal to others, we think that that's going to be the most devastating thing, but that's actually what heals us. So all these secrets and things that we can't deal with, that's what we have with addiction. Yeah. We see a lot of people recovering finally after doing the disclosure that weren't able to

before they did disclosure, because they finally, like you said, they finally actually come clean and said everything they were so terrified of saying and they held on for years And then suddenly they're no longer walking around in shame, right? Exactly. That's like the end of the shame, right? They're looking at their partner saying you know everything that I've done You've known every awful thing now that I have done and you still love me and you're here Like, oh, okay, you know, right? Because we all kind of a lot of us have a base many of us have a fear of abandonment And then we do if we have to pile on onto an addiction that we're so ashamed of,

like it's just like this quagmire, but if you start too, you're like, and you do reveal everything to partner and they're still there, it's like, wow, you love me, I'm not so bad. Right, I don't have any more secrets, it's amazing. Hi Emily, my wife and I have been married for 15 years, we have two kids and we're still in love. We both have high-pressure jobs and are balancing work, our house, kids and their schoolwork. It can feel like too much at times. Well, we have a healthy sex life. I definitely want to have sex way more than she does.

I feel like my hormones are through the roof and I desire her all the time. We have sex once a week and maybe a hand job one more time a week. It's not enough. I'm afraid to bring this up or fear that she may judge me as a sex addict. I turn to porn and masturbating

when I'm not having sex with my wife. I would never resort to cheating, but how do I separate myself from thinking I'm an addict rather than just a loving husband who desires his wife a lot? Thanks for all you do, love the show, long time listener, and I'm sure you will say communication is lubrication. It is, communication is a lubrication. I'm Matthew 43 Michigan, my home state. I don't feel like he's exhibiting signs of sex addiction and I can understand that I hear

this a lot from listeners. So like, is there a problem with me? My partner doesn't, you know, they don't desire me. How do you know? And then oftentimes there can be allegations like where you're masturbating all the time or you want sex so much, they can kind of label the partner's a psychetic. So they take that on. So you know, masturbation is really healthy and a relationship. I say a couple should always be masturbating

and you should keep masturbating even when you're in a relationship, and out of a relationship. And so, yeah, I mean, I think all that's important, but I don't see any sex addiction here. I see that they really just need to talk about their sex life. That's what I see. I realize it. Yeah, I would definitely want to assure you that, assuming you're giving us all the truth here, it does not seem like there's any indication of sex addiction but it does seem like you do need to be willing to talk to your wife and have a very honest candid conversation without worrying about her judgment to talk about the difference in desire. What you're describing is one of the most common reasons that people come in for sex therapy in marriages. There's just a difference in desire.

Yeah, exactly. It's a desire is a huge thing and I'm wondering if she's your age, because she's been checked out, is she on medication, is the hormones, this is all really important things to check out. But it does change the couples. Like, men want it. Sometimes there are other women, same-sex couples that happens to everybody, and it will fluctuate and change. So I would definitely get checked out, and it is important. So you have to have her engage in the conversation as well. And sex therapy, going to speak, if there are financial resources, that's what sex therapists do. They come in and there's like a safe environment

and with a really safe container, you talk about this stuff. You know, without what you let go of the judgment and you have somebody there that's sort of a neutral third party, they can help you, there's exercises people can do. Sometimes, listen, the reality is being a mom or being a dad is exhausting. It can be when you have high pressure jobs and you're balancing a million things. And sex

is often especially for women, not the thing. It's the first thing that goes. It is the first thing that goes. So sometimes it takes having a real mindful practice and really recommitting to that. And Matthew, maybe if you really share with your wife how much you want to connect to her and how much you desire her and that you want to do it in a way that feels good for her without pressuring. I imagine that it might help you grow and create more intimacy and vulnerability. It is about intimate.

I think a lot of times it's not even about the sex. It's not many times a week. It's not people are always like, I do this and do this three times. I don't even want to know the numbers, but it's connection and intimacy. It's more about that. I'm being vulnerable than it really is even about the sex. So that conversation has to happen with you guys. Thank you. And what you're saying about sex therapy though,

I think a lot of couples go to talk regular therapy and I think sex therapy can be just tremendously helpful for so many couples. Because you do sex therapy as well. I just feel like, I don't know, there are a lot of traditionally trained therapists that really aren't trained in sex therapy. And I know a lot of couples are like, we're in therapy for 10 years, sex never came up.

I'm like, how is that possible? They go to one sex therapist, like, bism, and all that comes together. Okay, we'll do one more question. And this is especially for you because I find this fascinating. I don't know much as much about it. You're trained in this. Hi, Emily. Can you explain amago therapy?

I believe you briefly cover this in other podcast episodes, but I love more information about who can benefit from it, how it works, and expected results. Thanks, A27 Michigan, to you people from my home state. I love it. I have talked about it, but I'm not an expert in it. It's a train to it. Can you explain Amago therapy? Yeah.

Amago was created by Harville Hendrix, who is a published author, and he's also been a speaker, and he's been all over the place. And I love Mago therapy. You ask who it can benefit. It's really created for couples, but the reality is that I do think that it can be effective for any people in a relationship. I remember coming over and one of my best friends was struggling with her daughter when she was 16 years old, and she was like, I just, oh my god, it's insane.

We can't communicate. It's horrible. And I came over and I facilitated a mago dialogue for them. And so, yes, it's created for couples and can be incredibly helpful. It's a very structured conversation. We should example of it, because I know it's pretty easy to do.

So totally. Okay. So do you wanna be the sender or the receiver? I think I wanna be the receiver because you're the one in charge here, right? The receiver, how would you, or you can use the sender as the person. So the sender is the person that wants to say something.

So like, if I'm upset with you, Emily, like, I want to come and I want to share something with you, so I'm going to be the sender. So I'm going to give you this information, and then what you need to do is you need to mirror it back to me. Okay. So what I heard you say is, I think I know some of this. So whatever you think would be easier to just demonstrate the right way. Okay, so let me just, why don't I say say the three steps and then we can practice it together. Okay, so the first step would be the center says something and the receiver mirrors it back. And you really want to do it verbatim.

As you get better at this and more effective at this, then you could, you can really paraphrase. But in the beginning, you really want to mirror it back. Exactly as is. Then the second thing you do, you say is there more? Is there more? Yes. And then I will tell you until there's no more. And then you will say, OK, so what I heard you say,

and then you prayer phrase. Just like a general overview of what you heard me say. The next step is you validate. So I heard everything that you said. That was really important to me. Thank you for sharing what you just said made sense. Any of those things, a validating statement. And then the third part is where you actually

attune to my emotions. So you say something like, based on what you just said, I imagine that you must feel, feel in the blanks. Right. And so, and then you check it out, is that how you feel? And then I tell you, so we're not making any interpretations, or actually, sorry, we're not making any assumptions about what the other person's saying. We're checking it out. Is that really what you said? Help me understand it. And then here's the most important component of a magotherapy.

It's not about being right. The idea behind a magotherapy is that two people can have completely different world views. And it doesn't mean that one is right and the other one's wrong. And it's not about proving our point. It's about being heard, listening with curiosity, and validating and empathizing and attuning

with our partner. I love it. It's amazing. I get chills. Because I've done some of this work. I've studied some somatic therapy a little bit, but I got this. Let's do it. Okay. All right, now I'm going to think of something

I don't want to say to you. Okay, let's think. This is going to be a hypothetical thing. We don't know each other enough for you to have a confrontation. Yeah, I'm not mad at you about anything. Okay, so I'm going to make this up. Emily, when I came here today for this interview and the door was locked outside

and I was knocking and nobody was here and I waited for like 15 minutes before you showed up, I felt really disrespected and I didn't know if you were going to be here and I felt like you didn't value my time. So what I heard you say was that when you arrive, you're waiting outside for 15 minutes and you were knocking at the door and no one answered.

And you felt really frustrated. You felt really frustrated because we had a time set up and disrespected. And you felt frustrated and disrespected, is that true? Yes. Okay, so I heard you say, is there anything more? No, that's it.

Okay. So I hear what you're saying about that you were waiting and you felt frustrated and disrespected. You felt like I didn't value your time and you actually got everything you had it and frustrated. I don't know that I said frustrated. I'm not sure.

Okay. So you felt disrespected and I didn't value your time. Right. Because you came at this time and I feel like that you, yeah, you must have felt really hurt and disregarded and angry. And angry, you must have felt really angry. Yeah, thank you.

So that's the idea now. Me sitting here listening to you even though this is a totally made up circle. We never locked the door ever. No, they let me in right away and actually the producer came and met me in the parking lot. Everything's beautiful. But the point of it is that there's no defensiveness on your part. Instead of you going into making an excuse or justifying it, you completely validated the experience. You know, you didn't go to defensiveness.

You were like, yeah, I get that. I totally hear what you're saying. And thank you. And basically, sort of the impression I got was thank you for sharing that night. Yeah, thank you for sharing. Yeah, and I can understand why you hear what you're saying. And basically, the impression I got was, thank you for sharing that night. Yeah, thank you for sharing. Yeah, and I can understand why you would feel these things. Think about how many times partners get together and they have an argument and the other person instead of just saying, you're right, you're absolutely right. I didn't come home in time for dinner instead of being like, why are you always getting on my case?

I was working really hard. That's not going to bring a couple closer together. Exactly. A part of it just needs to feel validated. But here's the thing that I'm thinking here, and you're absolutely right. And so I feel like that's why these tools, and it's so simple. Like, and we could put this on our website. I think it'd be really helpful to do a link to Amago Therapy on our website, because I've

done it a few workshops, and I, over the years, I've learned this stuff. And the reason why it's just so helpful is because it's like, you're really just literally mirroring back to them. You're listening, and you're saying back to to them and then you're getting in touch with the motions. But I think the reason why this is so challenging is because, for example, like let's say we are in a relationship though, right? And you were like, every time you know, let's say we shared, you know, this is a similar

thing, but we shared one key to the house. Or let's say like something happened and there was only one key left of the house. And you're thinking, I came home and you took the key. And I'm going like, I told you that you should, you left for work and you left on the table and I'm thinking, well, yeah, because you left on the table today, I had to take it and lock the door, right? Because I'm right that so you're really upset by it. So I feel like in this scenario, it wasn't true. If that was a really case, I would feel bad that I was 15 minutes late.

But in a relationship, typically, if your partner's met, you're going to easily think of why not. So how do you get partners to, in that moment, defuse it without, it's a practice, I guess. Well, that's why there's the, the, this dialogue, it's called a mago dialogue, because they're safety in the structure. Some people say it's so contrived doing this whole thing. This is not like normal conversation, but that's where the, that's where the safety comes in. Because the person who's listening, who's again, called the receiver called the receiver, that person is, they're instructed to look neutral, to not make eye gestures, not roll their eyes,

no facial expressions. Right. And to really listen at a curiosity, the goal of this is not to be right. It doesn't mean there aren't times when there is right or wrong. There could be. But the idea is to be able to understand

that your partner's experience was a certain way and they felt a certain way. Like everything. We are entitled to our feelings. And I learned this like when I was my mom, what does some kind of training in the 70s. And she was like, always start with your feelings. Never a tech. I feel this way.

So I kind of get this, but I feel like if you're doing a mago and you're feeling like, but I'm so mad, you could flip it back and say, now what's going on with you, right? In the same session, you could be, okay. So I was, so tell me about how you're feeling. I could say, well, this morning when you left for work and the say, now what's going on with you, right? In the same session, you could be like, okay, so I was like, so tell me about how you're feeling. I could say, well, this morning when you left for work and the key, I felt the key was on the table and I felt like you don't listen to me,

which is really disrespecting me. And then we could play it back and then we see that we both had different experiences and interpretation of something. So, this is one of the things that I do do, you're asking before about some of the treatment that's available for couples. This is not necessarily for couples dealing with them with fidelity, although it's pretty

common. But we do offer these, they're called couples boundaries workshops where couples come in and not that the issues they're bringing in are not important. But really what we're doing throughout the whole workshop, we are using these different issues like the one you and I just talked about in role played, but they're real ones for the couple. But we're really helping them learn how to communicate with each other and listen from a place of curiosity and to share to be known without that like wanting to judge or have to agree or to be right and make your own better wrong.

It's all about being right and then when it gets to like contempt and couples like that's just so this is a way just to diffuse everything. I love it. Thank you. That was really good. That's a great practice everyone check it out on our website. We have to go. This is a great show. Marny Breaker the Center for Relational practice. Everyone check it out on our website. We have to go. This is a great show. Marny Breaker, the Center for Relational Healing, will have all this information on our website. Is there anything else that we need to add? There's a lot of stuff on your website. I'm just very grateful to be here

and thank you for being interested in all of the stuff that's fascinated. I'm so passionate about it. I know. I think you're great. You do great work. And I'm excited to hear you're here enough to come back. And thank you everybody for listening.

Was it good for you? Email me. Feedback at sexwithemily.com. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC