Sex With Emily - What Actually Counts as Cheating?

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Throwback to another one of my favorite conversations! Have you ever wondered where the line actually is between loyalty and betrayal? In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Scott Lyons to unpack the messy, subjective world of infidelity in 2025. We get into the questions couples almost never ask each other… is porn cheating, is a flirty DM cheating, is fantasizing about someone else cheating… and why avoiding these conversations is often what leads to bigger ruptures down the line. I also get vulnerable about my own history as a self-described "reformed cheater," and Scott and I both open up about being on the receiving end of infidelity ourselves. We break down the real stats on who cheats and why, talk through micro-cheating and emotional affairs in the age of social media, and walk through what genuine repair looks like when trust has been broken. If you want a real, no-shame framework for defining your own relationship boundaries, this one's for you. ABOUT EMILY: Emily Morse is a Doctor of Human Sexuality, author and host of the #1 rated Sex with Emily podcast. Known as a renowned sexologist, Dr. Emily has helped millions of people around the world navigate their sex lives. Her candid and often funny conversations challenge cultural taboos, misinformation and awkward sex talks to create a future where people can deeply connect and embrace pleasure-filled lives. Because, life is too short for bad sex.  CONNECT WITH EMILY: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexwithemily/  X: https://twitter.com/sexwithemily  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sexwithemily  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexwithemily  Threads: https://www.threads.net/@sexwithemily CONNECT WITH DR. SCOTT LYONS: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drscottlyons/  Website: https://www.drscottlyons.com/ WANT MORE? Visit the Website: https://sexwithemily.com/ which includes FREE guides. Free Downloadable Guides: https://sexwithemily.com/guides/  Text With Me: https://sexwithemily.com/text  Receive Sex Tips On The Regular: https://sexwithemily.com/subscribe  Interested in 1:1 Coaching with Emily? Go to http://sexwithemily.com/coaching to apply! Chapters: 0:00 Welcome to Sex with Emily 4:55 What is Cheating? 9:10 Why Every Couple Needs to Define Boundaries 12:45 How to Talk About Monogamy 14:31 Are Fantasies a Form of Cheating? 17:22 Listeners Story: When Fantasies Hurt a Relationship 19:42 Infidelity Stats 22:27 Dr. Emily Opens Up About Her Past Infidelity 25:38 Recovering After Being Cheated On 29:03 Monogamy, Open Relationships & Honest Conversations 36:26 Is Micro-Cheating Actually Cheating? 39:48 Can a Relationship Survive Infidelity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am so excited to finally share this with you. I am going on tour. It is the best sex ever tour. And I hope you'll join me. And the show is all about you, the audience. Every night, I'm going to be answering your questions, win prizes, and leave with secrets to have the best sex ever. Every night is different because the show is all about you. So here's the dates.

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I will see you there. Can't wait to meet you. You got blame for their cheating. I got blame for the cheating. Yeah. In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. My husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire relationship.

3.44% of those who admitted cheating reported feeling happy and very happy with their partner. My lover, my confidant, my plus one, my emergency contact, and the only person I want to fuck for the rest of my life. Hey everyone, welcome to sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and my mission is to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate conversation around sex. This show is all about you. It's about you having better sex, expressing your desires, and knowing exactly what you want. Also, be sure to follow me on all social media. It's Sex with Emily everywhere. Subscribe to my YouTube channel for full episodes and my newsletter. You're going to love my newsletter. I've been told

I give a really good newsletter if you know what I mean. It's sex withemly.com slash newsletter. Finally, I am going on tour and I hope you join me. I'll be going all over the United States and the show is all about you. I'll be answering your questions live. We'll be in games. There's giveaways. It's going to be such a good time. You can find that at sex with Emily.com slash events. All right, everyone, enjoy this episode. Volvo is leaving the chaos of rush hour outside. Start by settling into your saddle-stitched napa leather seats. Notice the open space around you, uncluttered, elegant, intentional, warm, ambient light, and natural wood details to ground you. This is Volvo's Scandinavian

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It was so interesting to me. This always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York. It was John Hamm, right? And he had all these, like, lovers. And he was, like, cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating, except one day a phone bill came in.

Like, remember, you used to get the printed phone bills? And it would be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to, other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me. Have you ever been cheated on, ever thought about cheating yourself? Or maybe you're just wondering, what even counts as cheating? Is it sex? Is it flirting?

Is it DMing your ex at 2 a.m. with a just thinking about you text? Well, if you haven't talked about it with your partner, don't worry, you are so not alone. And I'll be honest, I'm a reformed cheater. And in this episode, we're diving into the messy, murky waters of infidelity. What it means in 2025, how to prevent it, and how to come back from it if it happens. Spoiler, the definition of cheating is not one size fits all. For some it's sex. For others, it's like in a thirst trap.

By the end of this episode, you're going to learn how to define cheating in your relationship before assumptions turn into accusations. So we're going to cover why just feeling it out isn't enough. The exact questions to ask your partner about boundaries. What to do with those fantasies you're afraid to say out loud? Hint, they might actually unlock deeper intimacy. And how to stop letting jealousy wreck you and instead use it as a window into your desires. We'll also talk tech and temptation.

Work DMs, late nights like digital flings and what real repair looks like if betrayal has happened in a relationship. This episode is packed with real talk, actionable tools, and even AI scripts to help you define your values, set clear boundaries, and build trust that actually lasts. Whether you're trying to prevent cheating, recover from it, or just stay ahead of the chaos, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. So let's get into it. My co-host today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a dear friend and a licensed holistic psychologist.

He's a body-based trauma expert and author of Addicted to Drama. He's helped over a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma, and drama through his signature somatic approach. Scott is the founder of the EmbodyLab, the go-to platform for learning body-based trauma therapies and the creator of somatic stress release taught in over 20 countries. You want to go deeper. Use code sex with Emily for a discount on any EmboddyLab program at theembodylap.com. You are going to love it. Let's talk about cheating today because there are so much information coming in. There's DMs, there's questions, there's emails like, is this cheating?

Have I been cheated on? There's so many different ways to cheat now. What constitutes cheating? A DM? A flirty little look across the room. Could it be porn watching? People think that's cheating? I got so many emails.

I want to help the people. Let's read an email. Okay. So here's some things that have come in. just to give you the overview. Okay. Number one, I'm living in the misery of a sexless marriage, so to meet my sexual needs, I have to masturbate.

My problem with it is the porn it requires. Is there another way? So let me explain this to you, Keith. This guy from a guy named Keith. First, let's just cover the porn thing. In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. So it sounds to me like in Keith's relationship, he feels guilty about using porn.

So just so you know in a lot of heterosexual relationships, this is one of the huge hot-button issues. Couples never talk about it. They make assumptions that when we get married, well, my partner would never watch porn again because they've got me. Why else would they need it? They don't understand that porn is actually a healthy part of sexual expression.

And I always tell couples, listen, your partner's going to be watching it when you get together. They're going to be watching it when you're not together because it actually can be something that's completely separate. than the relationship. Well, I think, I mean, I have a bigger question. No. Like, what constitutes cheating?

Like, what is the definition of cheating? This is it. Right? There's so many things that couples do not discuss when they get married or commit. And I think this should be one of them. Like, there's got to be a forum that's like, do you think if I watch porn, is that cheating?

If I take a weekend with friends, is that cheating? If I like someone's photo on Instagram, is that cheating? If I dance with someone at a bar, you're not there, is that cheating? So it's like, cheating is actually kind of subjective. Like there's no universal definition. No. What do you think cheating is, I'm? I think that objectively, most people would say, if you're in a committed relationship

where you haven't discussed boundaries and you haven't discussed like what is on and off, that if you exchange bodily fluids with somebody, have an orgasm with someone else, make out with somebody else, that that's probably cheating. For some people, then there's the whole emotional cheating. you've talked to this person every day at work, you've shared everything about our life. Like if I'm married to someone, I'm like, oh, but your office wife has become your new, you know, confidant that that could be cheating too. So there's all these different ways to define it.

But I think the standard definition is like you bang someone else. Yeah. And you were together and that was a violation. But now since social media and there's all these different ways to connect to people, you know what I always think about. Did you ever watch Mad Men? No. Okay.

So I barely got through it, but it was an amazing show. It came out, whatever. You know what it is. It came out 10 years ago. But what was so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York. It was John Hamm, right? And he had all these, like, lovers.

And he was, like, cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating except one day a phone bill came in. Like, remember, you used to get the printed phone bills? And it would be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't her. So she's like, you were cheating on me. And I'm guessing, like, cheating's been around. Like, that was like in the 60s or the 50s that show.

I'm guessing people have been cheating for, I don't know why I always think about that because I'm like, that was so simple. That was like one bill that pointed to the cheating. But now it's like you could find it out on Instagram. You're following your partner's location. Someone saw you at the bar. They let your partner know. like there's a million ways to get caught now with cheating. But then it also comes down to most couples don't even discuss like I'm fine if my partner

watches porn, but again, for so many it is cheating. So I think that when couples decide that they're going to commit for the rest of their lives together, they've discussed like, among other things, is this cheating? Would it be cheating to you if I masturbate and think about somebody else? Yeah. Is it cheating if I, yeah. And it's going to bring up tension. I think that's like we have to normalize that a lot because if I said to you, we just started

a relationship and one of the first questions I ask you out of like we're rolling out of bed we're getting our coffee and I'm like hey M what's cheating mean to you like the first thought most people have is why are they asking me this and are they going to cheat on me which is you know that negative bias in their brain going oh shit you know that's probably for many people that's a big fear for me it's a huge fear in a relationship we got to flip with that into like what are the boundaries like what what is our it's more like I love the way you're saying that because to start off with what's cheating, we'll be, that will not go anywhere helpful. But maybe it's more like what are our values around intimacy?

Yeah. Are we only sleeping with each other? Yeah. Let's make an assumption that I'm not going to sleep with anybody else, that you're not going to sleep with anybody else, but in that category should be like, what about porn? Yeah. What about texting somebody else of another gender that, you know, I think there's just, and then as it comes along, couples need to keep revisiting.

these conversations. I really like this because in when you're navigating like polyamory, when you're navigating like multiple partners and you're establishing the rules, that is where you have typically been like having the conversation about what is cheating. Yeah. Where like, hey, this like, yes, you can go sleep with someone, but you can't make out with someone on the dance floor, you know, or like no kissing or no second dates, whatever it is in that navigation. But I love this because so rarely in more monogamous situations, because it's subjective. It actually is subjective. It's nuanced for sure.

And I know if you're listening, you're like, no, it's not subjective. It's really clear what is cheating. It's actually not. It is for you. And that's what's important. And now you need to communicate and express that to the person you're with. I want every couple to have this conversation. I think they can learn from people in open relationships or in polyamorous relationships.

don't crawl up. I know people are like, oh, that doesn't work or that's crazy. I'm not saying that you need to be in it, but the protocols that people in open relationships go through are like, oh, okay, well, when we're at play parties, we get to hook up with someone else. There will be no kissing. There will be, like you set up the boundaries and the rules, and then you get to adjust them as you go along.

But the problem is, is that most relationships, they're like, we're together, we're not going to miss till death to us part. Nothing else will ever happen. I will never be attracted to anybody else again, nor will you. there won't be any ambiguity. And I'm also going to make assumptions that you actually are going to stop your porn watching. And I think part of this lack of communication

is what leads to the highest statistics on cheating. Yes. Right? It's not the only reason. We'll talk about the reasons as to why cheating often happens. But the lack of communication, the lack of even the conversation

is already starting to hide things. Yeah. Because we all have, like as humans, we all have fantasies. We all have thought. And yes, this is about do we action them? How far can we action them? Do we even express the fantasies when it's not about our partner to our partner?

All of those are really important to discuss. But as humans, if we just shame the fact that we in hide, that leads to less communication and more opportunity to have bigger ruptures. I mean, there's just so much nuance that this should all be discussed. couples don't want to have these conversations. What if we were to have the conversation now like we were a couple? Let's do it. Okay.

So we're having our morning coffee and our sex with Emily Mugs, which makes the coffee is so much spicier. And I say to you like, hey, I'm, you know, we haven't had this conversation yet, but I really want to talk about an aspect of our intimacy. Yes. And, you know, I love that line, by the way. I'm going to repeat it here, which is, you know, my monogamy may not be your monogamy. And I really want to align about where that is for us.

Like what might feel like a rupture for you? I don't even have to say cheating, but what might feel like a rupture for you? I always want to say cheating is like a buzzy, but I feel it's more like our beliefs and values around. If we're monogamous, what are our beliefs and values around it? And then, yeah, we could decide what is, we both believe it and then what might be seem as cheating, right? So what are your, yeah, I love that. What are your beliefs and values? I believe that if we're monogamous, I would guess that we're only sleeping with each other,

that we're using protection. If you don't, no, that's it. I guess if we're open. Like, obviously, we're only sleeping with each other. Like, I also understand that sometimes relationships and attraction can meander over time and fade and things twist and turn. And I would want us always to have an open dialogue about. should something happen or should there be some fantasy that comes up for you or there's something that you're like oh I think it'd be kind of hot to have a threesome

or like I would want to know like I know right now in our relationship we're in a really good place where our sex is really great it's really exciting but but I would want to know like if you are attracted to someone outside the relationship how might we handle it do you think that fantasizing is a form of cheating this is really interesting because we you know from a neuroscience perspective we innately daydream, right? We daydream and even dreaming. It's like, I remember a couple I worked with and he had expressed to her that he had a dream about sleeping with someone. And we might go, amazing communication. Thank you for communicating. And for her, she said, you cheated on me.

And she couldn't let it go. And she even said to me, she was like, I know this is crazy. I know this is ridiculous, but I can't get over the sense that he was dreaming about someone else besides me. And we, you know, like we broke down some of the neuroscience of where dreams come from and what that might mean and there's symbolism there and other things like that. But, damn. That's a really big one, though. That is so a common. Like, we can't help it if we have dreams about somebody else. People sleep up, have dreams about sleeping with their ex all the time. Yeah. Doesn't necessarily mean they want to sleep with their ex. No. They have fantasies about someone else. But this is the tricky part. This is we're in a relationship we have to say,

do you want to hear that information? Yes. Rather than just offering that. Well, and we can't necessarily take it at face value if there's a fantasy or a dream. So if you said to me, hey, I just had this sort of fantasy about the other cameraman. And I... So cute. Cute. Super cute camera men today. And I said to you, okay, thank you for letting me know that. What's happening in you? Like, oh, you're- I just feel better, like, that I share it. Say, to me, this stuff should be out in the open. Like, yeah.

I would love you just to be able to hear that and accept me and not feel like, well, look, obviously we're firing that cameraman. Yeah, but I think what's important here is, yes, you know, shame dies when we have a safe place to share our stories, right? And that's an important aspect because shame shuts us down relationally. And more importantly is like, I'm really interested in, And if it wasn't just about the cameraman, what's present for you? Oh, part of the fantasy is I'm feeling more aroused today.

Or maybe I'm feeling a little lonely. Maybe there's something underneath the fantasy that we can connect about. Yeah, there's something more to that about, like, me feeling like, oh, if I'm only committing to you, then it feels like it's shutting off this part of me where I get a lot of valid, I get a lot of internal valid. I love validation from men. Yeah. So I would love to feel. like, oh, there could be something there, like the possibility of something new and sparky,

even though I don't necessarily want to have sex with him. I just like to have that attract. Is that something that I could still have in the boundaries of our relationship? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hey, Emily, I've been a long time listener. I thought things were doing pretty well in my marriage. Up until recently, my husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire relationship.

He does it sometimes, too, to get off while he's having sex with me, and it's thrown me for a loop and made me feel pretty insecure. Yeah, I would feel pretty insecure too. To me, it feels like a betrayal and almost like cheating because he's doing it to get off inside of me when I should be the one arousing him. How do I even go about handling this? What are your thoughts on this?

Where do I go from here? Look forward to hearing from you. I get that he was trying to be really honest, probably in some way. But how is she ever going to recover from the fact that every time her husband's having sex with her, he's thinking about her friend to get off and get around? I was like, if that's a rupture that I don't know how we're going to repair that one. So to me, they didn't do the underground.

Like, you have to say, is it okay if I share with you? How do you feel I'll be fantasizing? Do you want to know about it? Yeah. He didn't clear any of that. Yeah. And so now they're in more trouble. That just felt like I wanted to cover that.

Yeah. I mean, I think that there's like, it gets really tricky. If you find yourself projecting someone else's face onto your partner and someone else's body onto your partner, like you can't be with your partner, then I think that's an important pause point, you know, to go, whoa, maybe this isn't the match that I want, or maybe I need to do some self-reflection,

or maybe I need to do some work, or maybe, you know, oftentimes we can get stuck in fantasy as a way to avoid intimacy. Yes, well, that's right. Disassociation. Dissociate disconnection projecting someone else's face. It's like what's happening under the hood of that fantasy and projection? That's the material that we need to be talking about, connecting about.

Not, hey, I'm fantasizing about your best friend when having sex with you. Where do we go from there? Right. We can't. But hey, I did some self-reflection work and I realized I'm disconnecting a little bit while we're intimate. or I felt rejected lately from you and have been putting someone else's face, you know, like, whatever it is. And it felt safer to do that rather than to connect with you intimately.

So there's, and we're just talking about more like the psychology. We're not even getting into like my partner had an affair. Yeah. So should we get into some of those stats too? Because we're talking about the nuance, but then there's the full on like, my partner's stuff with someone else and didn't tell me. And that happens. Okay, so there's some juicy infidelity stats.

The prevalence, it says about 20 to 25% of, married people admit to having cheated on their spouse at some point. And then around 40% of unmarried people report having been cheating on by a romantic partner. Then we got into the gender gap is shrinking. I just found this was interesting and then we can break this down. That historically men reported higher rates of cheating, but the gap is closing. Women under 30 are now just as likely as men to cheat. So this is all the people that are going to report.

It might be higher. But what do you think about that? They admit to having cheating. When I hear cheating, I'm feeling it's a physical cheating. Yeah, most likely it's a physical cheating. And most likely they're talking about kind of an extreme, so sex. Yes. And not to make people more paranoid, but what is the actual self-reporting rate?

You know what I mean? Like that saying 20% and 25% in their report, yes, doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of other people that are not reporting or will lie even in a study. Yeah. So could be half. It could be double that number. It could be double that number. And if you're listening and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me really scared about intimacy,

you're in the right place. Like, it's fair. Like, this is why communication and conversation needs to be happening around this subject matter with partners and not in just a threatening way. Well, I feel like couples who really are able to talk. about all the things that are surrounding cheating and why people cheat and get ahead of it and troubleshoot it and be like,

I, like, let's talk about all, let's say promises to each other that we're gonna have frequent check-ins about our relationships, status, and our sex, like, and we ever find that we're not having sex and we're not meeting each other needs, like let's talk about before the cheating happens. And I think that's what happens

that couples don't really have the basis, so they're like, I'm feeling unseen, I'm feeling like my partner isn't prioritizing me. I'm feeling lonely in the relationship. I mean, there's so many reasons why people cheat. And they say some of the top reasons are feeling emotionally neglected or lonely. They want variety. Seeking validation or self-esteem boost, revenge, falling out of love, sexual dissatisfaction.

So there's a lot of different reasons for it. And I would like to just make a confession here. Okay. Okay. That I am a reformed cheater. I used to be a cheater. What do you mean by that? I mean that in my 20s and early 30s, I was in relationships for probably two.

I was like a serial monogamist. And I also had a job where I was traveling a lot internationally. And I would like have these fun, like I'd meet some guy, an airplane or be in Thailand. some beautiful hotel. And it was like, it felt just like a fun little romp, a fun little experience that was very, very exciting. And it wasn't necessarily for me because I was missing anything, my relationship.

It was more like, it was never like in the same city. Like me trying to be like, my cheating wasn't as bad because I was not on the US soil. I was, I was in Asia. I mean, this is not uncommon. Just a moment to go, like the creativity that people have to justify the action as a way of avoiding their own shame or like the pain they caused or to even address the underlying patterns is rich in creativity. I've heard some wild ones. But I like this one.

You know, I wasn't on U.S. soil, so it wasn't quite cheating. Well, that's what I'm telling you. It sounds really fucked up. And it says people in happy relationships still cheat. In fact, 34% of those who admitted cheating reported feeling happy and very happy with their partner. So for me, it was like, I was young. I had all these inner, I don't even have I told you this.

I did these international trade missions with legislators and I would travel and stay in these beautiful hotels. And I would meet just really interesting people and we'd be drinking and be like a one night. And I'd be like, I don't know that I'm going to see them again, but it was like the excitement, the buildup. And so, yes, I had a partner back in, you know, wherever I was living, San Francisco at the time.

And I just sort of felt like it felt so far away. And it was almost like, I went to the opera this night. It was like, it was like an experience I had. I went to a play. And I happened to have sex with somebody in another country. But what I decided is that doesn't feel great to me either. So I decided that I was going to never do that again. I never wanted to be a cheater.

And so I started to talk to my partners about that in my most recent relationships. I full on say like I've been. I've not been faithful in the past and I never want this to happen again. So it's really important to me that I, we have boundaries around it and we talk about it. And in my most recent relationship, we were like, and he was much more open to and he was like, great. If you something happens, you're going to, like, let me know. Let me know ahead of time if it's about to happen. Now that's tricky with the time difference.

I'm like, hey, there's this really hot guy and I really want to sleep with him. But like we were so much more open to it that I don't know. That's not going to be everyone's partner. but and then I'm actually way less interested in it now too. But I had a lot of guilt around that because I just knew that somehow it wasn't right and I had so much opportunity and anyway, that's me. Have you been cheated on? Yeah, I've definitely been cheated on.

I've never cheated to my knowledge. Okay. To my subjective knowledge. But yeah, no, I've definitely been cheated on. And, you know, it's, I remember like just overriding it in myself. I mean, like, about 55 to 70% of couples try. to work it out, right? Yeah.

And I remember going, it's okay, we can work this out. This really hurt me, but, you know, and every time I tried to even talk about it, I got blamed for it. You got blame for their cheating? I got blamed for the cheating. Yeah. Not even like valid excuses in my book of like, hey, you've been neglectful of my needs. It was just like, yeah, I didn't like the way you said something so I wouldn't cheated.

You know, like just shitty behavior. Yeah. I had gotten to a point where I was like, okay, if we just communicate it, all I care about is a communication. Like, if you have to go do this, talk to me about it. And that wasn't a possibility. But also, you know, the rules kept changing. They kept changing the rules?

They kept changing, yeah, the rules of like, okay, I can sleep with people, these three people who I've had, you know, these sort of fantasy relationships with in the past. Like it almost doesn't count because they already be with them. Yeah, like that was their rule. And I was like, okay. And at the time, I was just trying to be the cool boyfriend. Right. Like, and just be like, yeah, I'm cool with anything.

I'm the coolest. And like, it really hurts. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And in the end, they kept changing it. Like, they would make out with someone on a dance floor. And I was like, hey, that wasn't a rule set. Yeah.

And then they would get mad at me. for calling them out. Those are red flags. If you cannot communicate and someone gets utterly defensive, that's a no-go. Yeah. But there's also something that's interesting, I'm going to ask you back this, is I didn't see any empathy for the pain it caused me either. And this is not uncommon for individuals, although, like, 70-some percent of people

actually admit to feeling regret after cheating. The rest? People do, yeah. Yeah, most people do. But your partners, you didn't feel anything, they turned it on you, they kind of gaslit you or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's not in the, like, the sphere of being able to repair it. Like, we'll talk about repair, but like, when there's no regret, when there's no compassion or empathy of how that affects the other person, there's no, that's not a foundation to which you can heal and repair from it. Especially because if they're not feeling empathy for you. you there? How are they feeling empathy from you in other parts of the relationships? And that's like really, really hurtful. But I think also this brings back to like, did you feel regret?

I, I honestly, honestly, I never got caught. It never came up again. So I was like, I felt like I was able to compartmentalize it. But I did feel a little bit bad because I was like, God, I was also backpacking for a year through Southeast Asia. My boyfriend was in San Francisco at the time. So I felt like I had this sort of free range to do what I wanted. But yeah, no, I did. I felt like a little bit, but then I actually told him. Yeah. And he was fine because it turned out he was sleeping with half of his office and we were all fine. We were in our 20s. It was all fine. But I feel like the nuance here and what actually for the modern age of dating with like social media and people being out there and like meeting so many different types of people, like I think monogamy is a huge struggle for

people, but so are open relationships. And it's not for everybody. Some people are like, I could never do that, but then there's a lot of people like, like, I'm kind of, I'm down with it. So I just think I would love to invite people to have really honest conversations with themselves and their partners about, like, how they actually feel about some playing, like some going to a play party every once in a while. Like, I know a lot of couples who are like, no, we're completely monotonous except for when we go to a play party. Like, and then we're allowed to make out or we're allowed to have sex with someone else when my partner is there.

There's like all these different ways that couples cheat or get their needs met. It's what it's not, when it's, you know, cheating is like what it's the true infidelity and you're not actually sharing and you're doing it behind someone's back. But I think for some people, like, I actually have thought that maybe I'm just not really someone who is preternaturally monogamous. Like I've never felt that I am monogamous in my soul. Yeah. Like in my, like I think I've always been a little bit more flex.

I mean, and this is a really interesting piece in psychology. especially on polyamory. I know a good friend of mine Jessica Fern who wrote the book Polysecure. Oh, yeah. And we've had a lot of conversations about this, which is am I an individual who's just not constructed made for polyamory?

Excuse me, monogamy. If I'm not a person made for monogamy, or is this a manifestation of my insecure attachment style? Mm, same more. Like, you know, when we have a, let's say, avoidant attachment style, where we like withhold, we had trouble being in relation to other people. We feel overwhelmed by them.

And that stems from as infants, oftentimes caregivers that are too overwhelming to our nervous system. So we grow up and that carries forward with us. And then we feel like, yeah, I don't really like, I don't trust people. I don't find that relationships make my life better or whatever the belief system is. or the reflex of just going, when people get too close, I get overwhelmed and then I push people away or I escape. Yeah.

And that can lead to less intimate one-on-one encounters and more of a desire to jump between people. Yeah. It's tricky. It's so fucking tricky. It's like, yeah, it's just tricky. This is the kind of stuff why it's so important to be like aware of your attachment styles of

and your upbringing and that like not everybody's going to be on the same page you I feel like when you're finding a partner we have to be honest about this stuff even if we think we have like a proclivity towards maybe being more open I think a lot of us don't really want to talk about that because we're afraid we're gonna push them away but how much better to be like really honest about it yeah in the in the jump so you're not you know I had a great conversation with some the other day about this I just went on a few dates with them and they were really clear they're like I love and only do monogamy and I was like

like, cool, what's your definition of monogamy? So it actually came up and he was like, it means that there's no one else in the picture, no one else were sleeping with. And I said, oh, interesting, because for some couples, monogamy includes three sims, as long as you're together. Yes, yep.

Right? And I said, I don't mind that. And for him, he was like, no, no, no, that's not monogamy, that's not okay. In his definition, right? And then he called me the next day and he was like, look, I don't think we can, can date if that's what you like. And I said, well, I think let's pause. And I want to recognize you're having a response. That's important for me to hear, which is, do you feel scared? Do you feel

nervous? Do you feel like I might do something that might abandon you? He was like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's true for me. And I was like, well, let's have this honest conversation because I might get the opportunity to say, I like you enough that I want to really make sure that you feel safe and secure. And threesomes aren't that important to me. But if you just make the assumption based on your reflexive trigger, we're not going anywhere. Yeah. No, that's great to kind of break down the nuance of it. He was just like, because maybe if you guys did build a foundation where you felt really secure that maybe the threesome would be open. It's also triggering. We don't really know what it means. And so you can just like shut down from that for sure. Like I had a boyfriend once who

was like, I actually think it was a fetish and not even just a fantasy. A fetish around threesomes, meaning that every time we would have sex or he would masturbate, he had to think about a threesome to get off. Like he'd be like, right now I'm picturing like another woman going down and you. Like that was his thing. So to me, that's a fetish if it's a requirement for arousal. Yes. And I was like, and early on, I was like, okay, I can roll play this ship.

But then eventually he was like, are we going to have a threesome? We're going to have a three-sum. And I was like, we haven't been together that long. I don't really want to. And then we kind of like had to end. It was like that was all he was focused on. It was like somehow he easily got wired to that. And that was like too much.

But maybe, yeah. So I think that there's just so many different ways that this plays out. And what I just I love about this conversation is like we all, I wish, and maybe we could create this, like some kind of form. Maybe we could do this my smart as sex membership, my community that people could have like another form, kind of like the yes, no, maybe they could download this series of questions that you ask someone a new relationship. I mean, I know we don't want to have these questions. because early on, it's amazing. I can't imagine sleeping with anyone else. You're my everything.

But guess what? Reality checks in. The honeymoon phase dies. You're going to have arousal or attract into somebody else. So how do you start to answer these questions? Like, honestly, in opening. You know, because a lot of times cheating isn't always about, like, a dissatisfaction with the person.

Sometimes it's about looking for, like, connection or looking for, like, a lost part of ourselves that we might feel with a new partner that this partner can't really give to us. It's not about a whole relationship. It's just like sometimes sex is just about connection and intimacy, but it's like, oh, this person made me feel a certain way and I want to do this like one-off experience with them. But I don't know. I just think that we have such a tight reign around sex where sometimes we're just trying to, I don't know, I think that we're just trying to fill. It's really hard when we want one partner to fill multiple roles in our life as our best friend and our lover, very Esther Perel style, but like, Yushuant, my confidant, my plus one, my emergency

contact, and the only person I want to fuck for the rest of my life. Like, that's a lot of pressure on someone. So to say, like, maybe we go to a play party. Like, I know a lot of couples who were like, four times a year, we go to a play party. When I mean play party, it's usually like an invite only where couples go and they, like, swing and they do something. And, like, that satisfies their needs. Or maybe they spend a week apart where they do whatever they want.

And, you know, so I just think. I want to give, I just want to paint a picture. Like there's a lot of, if cheating is a problem in your relationship, but it's like your biggest fear, there might be a way to sort of break it down in a way that could work for you. Is that all tracking? Yeah. And I think there's a few other like things like micro cheating, which I think is really interesting,

especially in like, if I, and like social media, like if I'm hurting all your photos and I'm with someone else, am I micro cheating? Yeah. Right? if the intention is about attention and this like, you know, way, that that might fall under the category of emotional cheating. Let's talk about that.

I'm telling you, it says that social media site is the starting point for over 20% of affairs today. Really? I hear from people all the time. They're like, I told my partner to stop liking all these bikini photos of this woman and he will not stop. He's doing it every day and it feels awful to me

and he won't stop. So to me, like, yeah, I get why that is. is cheating adjacent because you just feel like violated. And I would say to them, like, tell your partner, like it doesn't make me feel great and secure in our relationship when you're doing that. But somebody just can't stop and it says it's responsible. They call it like microcheating, flirting, DMing, private texting.

That's reported by 45 to 50% of people as problematic, even if it's not technically cheating. So I think that that's like, I don't know, if I told someone that if I was with a partner and I was like, that doesn't make me feel good, I want them to be like, done. Like, I will never, I will not do that anymore. Like, what is it? Because why are they doing it?

What is it giving them if it's hurting me? And the counter argument often is, is, well, that feels too limiting or you're, you know, why are you trying to control me? Which is, you know, an interesting point, too. And it's, it's, like, if, and I had this with a page, some patients recently, where that was the case. She was like, I hate that he's sitting next to me in bed on Instagram, liking other girls' photos.

And one of the questions I asked is, is he liking anyone else's photos? She was like, yeah, he likes these photos on rabbits. He's really into rabbits. And I was like, do you think he's having an affair with the rabbit? And I'm not trying to be snarky. No, I get it. But I'm trying, you know, this is the thing. It's like, when it's our fear, when it's our own trigger, we might, we do.

We narrow our perception and our focus onto the thing we are most scared about. So I am blocking out all the other things that might also be here in the present moment. I'm blocking out all the rabbits he's hurting. I'm blocking out all the males he's harding on like his friends. And it's like, and who are these women? And she's like, oh, these women are his friends. And I was like, okay. So I want to address this doesn't make you feel great.

That's important. Let's all sit with that and let's break it down. And if we break it down and it still feels like this is a no-go, then that's a negotiation between you and your partner, which is different than, and this is where it gets tricky. It's like, is that different than just full-on cheating? I'm just glad that they're talking about it. Yeah, because what's fun.

funky is when we, you know, well, it's a high statistic of couples that try to save their marriage or try to save their relationships, but only about 15% of them make it. Yeah, let's talk about that. After how to help couples heal from the cheating. Oh, yeah. Do you want to get into that? Like it says like, like, they say like stop, you know, we talk about like stop the affair completely. You're going to stop that shit. Stop that shit. Whatever it is. You want to stop it and say like, okay, I'm back to like working and rebuilding our trust and our relationship. So, and you need total transparency. You acknowledge the pain.

You need your partner to be like, I'm really sorry that. It sounds like you didn't have that. You didn't have a partner who was like, oh, my God, that must have been really, really hard for you that you had to go through that. The betrayed partner needs to express their feelings of like rage and grief and confusion and all the things. and that partner kind of has to take it, right? And listen and listen. And then you got to open the conversation beyond the facts. Sometimes couples focus on like what happened?

I want the details. Did you go down and then when you're naked? Did you take foot, whatever? But really it's like what? What do you think about that? Yes. I say once. One time.

One time only. And anything after that, you're starting to attach to the details and not to the most important piece which is the rupture in the relationship and what's happening in you and what's happening in your partner. Yeah.

If we get too attached to the details to the story, we are just cycling in a trauma vortex. Absolutely. Yeah. Like then you can't get those images out of your head. So it's more like, what did the affair mean to you? Like what was missing? What were you logging for?

What was going on in your head? Like getting those kind of questions, right? Like what is happening in our relationship, not just between you and the affair partner, but like what's really happening with us? And then you've got to eventually shift from the blame to the curiosity. Like, what does this mean for us? Do you think we can rebuild?

Like, what is this messaging us about our relationship? Where do we need to go? Like, what is it revealed? What do we need moving forward? And then you've got to rebuild trust. Now, this is where I think a lot of couples fall. Like, it's really fucking hard to rebuild trust. You don't just go to therapy once.

Like, when trust is broken, it is such a rupture that, like, a lot of couples can never repair it. So you really just can't like, I don't know. I mean, sometimes people have like, I'm going to share you all my passwords. You're going to get, you're going to be able to see everything. Like you're going to follow my location. That will work temporarily. But that's not actually how we rebuild trust.

Yeah. It's just time. It's what? Time can be helpful, but a lot of things can happen in that time that don't rebuild the trust. So it's actual work. It's, hey, M, I know we had this big rep. sure you you slept with someone else. Yesterday I had this moment where I had a little flashback and I felt really alone and I texted you and I didn't hear back in an hour and I got really anxious.

And there's this ownership in that and the partner's job in that moment is just just reflect back. You got really anxious when they didn't text you back for the hour. Yeah. And it really brought up some old feelings and some imagery from the past. and how can I be with you in this moment to support and love you and really reflect back that I'm here with you. I'm committed. So that's really beautiful.

So a part of that would be like, okay, I hear that you got triggered when you didn't hear from me. So now it may be resolved to that would be like, so I promise that I will text. So from now and I make the best effort to text you right back when you text me, right, to make feel. Because simply you giving me your location and I start checking it actually, in, you know, induces more anxiety and dopamine. So every time I check the phone as to where you are because I think you're cheating on me,

I get a little dopamine hit. And that makes it pretty confusing because all of a sudden I'm becoming attached to the process of any time I'm anxious, and feeling a little better, it's associated with the paranoia and mistrust I have. That is so true. I'm just remembering now

when my boyfriend cheated on me in my 20s. you have been cheated on. I have been cheated on. I just remember this. Well, I, yes. The same guy you cheated on. Yes, he cheated on me, but it was a long story. I was traveling and then I came back and he's like, oh my God, I didn't. I was with nobody, but it turned out he literally slept with everyone in the city. So that I started, including his massage therapist, but at the time there was like answering machines. And I got the code to his answering machine. So I would obsessively call and listen to his answer machine and the messages. And that was like a, every time when he was house, I was digging for paper. I was looking for evidence, looking for evidence. and I became like this crazy,

like I became neurotically obsessed with like if he was like a minute late, like he's like I'm going to the drug store to get something and he was like two minutes later. I'm like clearly he's falling in love with the cashier. Like I would create crazy stories in my head. Yeah. So I get exactly what you're saying. It made me someone who got very jealous and insecure

because I didn't trust him. Yeah. It's a hard loop to break. And I will say like I've been on that same loop when I've been cheated on and I would like check where their phone is. I'm like, oh, they haven't moved in now or are they, are they really, you know, when they say they're out with, you know, and it's, and that's a point where I recognize, and it's so hard to break, but I recognized in that moment, they can't break this cycle

for me. No. This is about me doing work and seeing if I actually can stay in this relationship with what happened. Because that loop is exhausting. It's exhausting, but you're right, and you think it's helping you, but it's not. I would obsessively call his voice, like, 10 times it. Who else has called him? Who else has called him? So the other thing is like, so you're trying to rebuild trust, but it's also interesting to like create a new relationship. Like, where are we now? Like, don't go back to the past. It might never, it might never be how it was. But you could build something new and stronger and just more honest. Yeah. Rupures happen. That's a given in any relationship, cheating is kind of the ultimate rupture, or one of the ultimate ruptures along

with a few other ones. And if I constantly, like, you don't take out the trash, um, and I bring back the fury I have that, and it's because you cheated on me, that's on me. I have to go to therapy. I have to process that, and I have to process it with you, but I cannot keep weaponizing what hasn't been processed against the other person. There is no way to repair that rupture. Wow. And even though I might not say, and you cheated on me, it's embedded in, you didn't take out the trash. Right. Right. Oh, it's tricky, but see to me, but couples can also very much repair from this too. It can. It doesn't have to mean that it's the end if you do this kind of work. With a guided therapist, you're willing to look at it. And if you really both genuinely

want to make it work, if one person isn't invested in it, then like, it's probably not going to, you know, they're not going to heal this shit. No, love is an action and it takes everyone in the to continue to action, to rebuild, to establish and reestablish the relationship and intimacy. Yes, rebuilding, reinventing together, what kind of relationship do you want to co-create now, knowing that this rupture happened. Yeah. I love it. That's it for today's episode.

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