Sex With Emily - What It’s Really Like to Grow Up Non-Binary l Jeffrey Marsh

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Join the SmartSX Membership: https://sexwithemily.com/smartsx Access exclusive sex coaching, live expert sessions, community building, and tools to enhance your pleasure and relationships with Dr. Emily Morse. Sign up for Dr. Emily's newsletter at sexwithemily.com for free guides, articles, and more ways to prioritize your pleasure and relationships. In this powerful episode of Sex with Emily, Dr. Emily sits down with Jeffrey Marsh, the first openly non-binary public figure interviewed on national television, author of "How to Be You," and a Zen-trained meditation teacher who has helped millions embrace self-acceptance. This conversation goes deep into identity, authenticity, and the radical act of loving yourself exactly as you are. Jeffrey shares their journey from childhood feelings of not fitting into traditional gender roles to becoming a leading voice for non-binary visibility and self-compassion. We explore the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation, the importance of using correct pronouns as basic respect, and how Jeffrey's 20+ years of Zen practice has shaped their approach to self-love and helping others break free from shame. This episode addresses the real challenges of coming out, setting boundaries with family, and the courage it takes to live authentically in a world that often demands conformity. Jeffrey offers practical wisdom on moving from self-criticism to self-acceptance, why asking for what you need is essential for healthy relationships, and how their work helps people - especially parents - learn to support LGBTQ+ loved ones. Whether you're exploring your own identity, supporting someone in your life, or simply want to understand how to love yourself more fully, this conversation offers profound insights on breaking free from societal expectations and embracing your authentic self. Let's get social: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sexwithemily/ X https://twitter.com/sexwithemily Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sexwithemily TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@sexwithemily Threads https://www.threads.net/@sexwithemily Let's text: Sign up here - https://sexwithemily.com/text

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And that's part of that label is what you wear. Non-binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in your soul. So who is Jeffrey deep in their soul? You know, is it? I wish I knew. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. On today's show I'm joined by activist, author, and queer commentator Jeffrey Marsh to discuss all

things gender. Jeffrey breaks down their approach towards radical self acceptance and how to really truly do it. How fearlessly demanding respect from others frees you up to fully be yourself. The importance of representation for trans individuals and their experience as the first openly non-binary person on television. They even help me identify my needs and go a little bit deeper and explore why it might be difficult for me to ask for all my needs to be met. We go there. We also dive into Jeffrey's book, How to Be You.

Jeffrey, you were the first prominent, openly non-binary public figure to be interviewed on national television. So can you tell me about that? Tell me about your family. What an experience to be the first person. And we're still, because I'm gonna have to ask you today some of the basic questions, cause I have so many, so many things I wanna talk to you about. But I still think it's very confusing for people.

They're like, they, them, she, her, now Instagram wants me to choose. People are angry about it or confused by it. So tell me about your journey. Like tell me everything, Jeffrey. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm happy to start at the beginning. As you were describing a little bit of, you know, why I'm known, I guess you could call it. I was thinking, how many of those words in that description do you want to talk about? The first openly non-binary person on TV to talk about being non-binary,

there's just a whole chain of things that came together to make non-binary even possible. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that our identities are not valid. Of course they are, but there's, we are living in a time where there is a context and a language where we can fully be open about who we are. And to me, that's why coming on your show was such,

why I've been looking forward to recording this with you for so long, because it does have to do with how we relate to each other. And it does have to do with how we relate to each other. And it does have to do with how we respect ourselves and each other. And which trips up so many people, it has to do with being a human, having needs, being okay that you have needs, being able to say that you have needs, and being able to request that other people help you with your own needs. have needs and being able to request that other people help you with your own needs.

So meaning like I need to be respected for who I am. And so part of talking about being non-binary is just trying to help people respect me for who I am. Yeah, exactly. So let's go back to non-binary though. So just to ask you these questions, non-binary, gender non-conforming, how do we even just break it down from my audience who still, it still can be challenging for people because was it more like to give context, was it more like you were born a cisgender male, right? No, no, no, not at all. Okay, woman, no, cisgender female. So the way we talk about it is, I was assigned male at birth. Assigned male at birth. So there's a birth certificate in a filing cabinet

in Pennsylvania with my name on it, and it says male, which I think is what you're getting at. And the reason we phrase it that I was assigned male at birth is because it feels like that was a word and a label and a category that is irrelevant to who I am, stick with me and was assigned to me. That was a decision made for me before I could speak for myself. And that decision was based on the genitalia that you were born with? Oh yeah, I mean doctors at the time that's that's largely what they were basing it on is right

outward physical appearance. Exactly. So then what happened, so walk me through this Jeffrey, so how old are you when you're like this just doesn't feel right to be assigned as a man? Oh gosh, kindergarten. Okay so that's what I'm, tell me about that. Yeah. No, I love, I love the question because I remember sitting in kindergarten, we had these felt figures. So some, I'm going to say, you know, bless teachers hearts. One of the teachers we had, I think we had at least two teachers for our kindergarten class. One of them spent time cutting out felt figures, one in the shape of a boy and one in the shape of a girl. And they also cut out felt clothing and felt accoutrement. So obj, right? A book bag, an umbrella,

right? As a class, we were supposed to sit around and dress these figures for the day and for the weather. So, some lesson about you wear a sweater when it's cold or I don't know what we were supposed to learn. And I was constantly getting in trouble for putting the wrong things with the wrong figure, the stuff that wasn't supposed to go. So, you put a dress on the male, perhaps, on the boy.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was always the kid in class who wanted to wear the princess dress and I was not allowed to at a very young age. And I was, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, but before too long, my feet grew too big to wear my mom's shoes without her knowing about it. Do you know what I mean? Like my feet were starting to stretch into my mom's shoes when I started, you know, early teens. This way of expressing has always been a part of me. And the reason talking about non-binary is important is because it goes even beyond expression. It is the deep way that we experience ourselves. So in other words, it's different than a drag queen, which is someone, there's nothing wrong with drag queens, but that's someone who wears things. And that's part of that label is what you wear. Non-binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in your soul. I wish I knew. Would you not even like to think about gender then?

Like would you ever say, well, there's a part of me that feels more feminine or masculine. Would you ever use any of those words? Or is it just sort of something else entirely? Do you want to be? Oh, I love that. Yeah, of course. And I, well, so I have to get meta with you for a second. Please, I love it.

I'm so mad. You're so ready. I love that you're Zen trained. I've been meditating for 20 years too. I just feel like I want to go with all places with you. No, I sense that we can go there right away. Everything. So the meta conversation is so many of the boxes we put ourselves into our fig and we get attached to the box.

So to me, non-binary is literally a chance to uncheck all the boxes and then see what we have left. And throughout human history, there have been people like me. And they've been called lots of different things. A while ago, you asked, you know, specifically about the word non binary. And for us, the binary genders binary meaning to the binary genders, binary meaning two, the binary genders are man and woman. The two genders that most people think are the only two genders. And to say I'm non-binary just means I don't fit in the man category, I don't fit in the woman category.

And me personally, Jeffrey, I'll speak very, very specifically about me. I feel like I have, you know, a wheelbarrow full of genders. I just have so much gender going on. It's not an absence of gender for me. It's just like, I express all in every and every which way. What I love that you're doing is cause I know that you coach and you speak

and you have a beautiful Ted talk that you did. And I want you to check that out. We'll link all of that in the show notes. So let me tell you about a conversation I had. I had a conversation with a close family member. She's a lesbian. She's in her fifties. And she said to me, just the other day,

she said, I don't understand. She lives in the Midwest, so it's a little bit different, like we're in LA, but she said, I just don't understand. I have a friend's son who's seven years old and already wants to declare that he is a she or wants to do an operation or something. And then my mom chimed in and was like, yeah,

and so-and-so's daughter says, and now that she's bisexual, but she's 14 and hasn't been with anybody, this is and so's daughter says, it announced that she's bisexual, but she's 14 and hasn't been with anybody. This is crazy what's going on, right? The older, it's crazy. And I was like, but I said to my friend, I said, but you think about it. I know, and I know for a fact that in kindergarten,

she felt that she was attracted to women because we've had these conversations. And I said, are girls? And that was hard for her to come out, not until she was in her early 20s.s I said can you imagine how many other kids in the class probably felt that way as well only because they're in a box and there's a choice if you're a man you have to be the woman if you're willing to be with man but now what I see this is giving young people opportunity to say it's up for grabs I actually don don't know yet. And how beautiful is that,

that they can come from the place of choice and figuring it out, like who do I wanna be? And then they were like, oh yeah, I guess I kinda get it. You know, that was like the best, I was just trying to kinda, I just think it's just really misunderstood. People get angry about it. People even make comments on my,

why you have to say she, her on your Instagram, even though now Instagram is giving us the options to what pronouns on. So what I'm saying is, do you feel that this is the case that this is going to serve, or you probably have seen this? A lot of young people are people of all ages to realize it's my choice and I get to identify whoever I want. Yeah, of course. And to back up just a teeny tiny bit, who you are deep down is not a choice. You're talking about the choice to express yourself.

That's what I'm saying, the choice. Yeah. She said never choice. That's exactly what the point like she's like, I didn't, I didn't have a choice. Thank you for circling me back because I lost my voice. She's like, I'm like, you always said you didn't have a choice. So if these people are now they have choices, right? So right.

You didn't have a choice. Yeah. Well, and one thing that I know gets stolen from young LGBTQ people is their future. I know I look incredibly young and people can look up my social media to verify, but I'm 43. I was born in 1977, and I literally thought that I was going to be dead.

I really began to more and more understand who I was at the height of the AIDS crisis and at the height of celebrities even dying on TV. And I never thought I would be 43. I never thought I'd be 23. Because you thought- Because I never saw an example of someone like me surviving and so there's anything I can do with my channel. It's to give that seven year old who was

like me the chance to survive and to know that there is a place for you. There is a future for you. There is a future for you. The Fleece shirt looks great with fabulous skin. Hey, thank you. I'm wishing you this quite a lot. You do. I mean, it's just really, It's also, you know, loving yourself. Loving yourself. Loving yourself is the best skincare.

It really is. I mean, I mean, because that's also like your book, you know, is all about how to be you. How to learn to love yourself, accept yourself, stop the negative self-talk. Yes. You mentioned anger a couple of times. I did? Anger? Yeah.

Well, people are angry. I make people angry. Yeah. Yeah. And we've had a lovely conversation and you can probably see that I'm just as sweet as pie and I hold firm to the understanding and the commitment that I will be respected. And nothing makes people angrier than when you do that. So I'll give you an example. People often talk about me as a walking metaphor. It's pretty

obvious when you see me. What I was told is wrong with me from a very early age. And the metaphor is I've learned to not only accept that about myself, but love it, celebrate it, enjoy it, adore it. Right. It's like the thing that we- Dance in it, right? Yeah. And this is what you talk about. I think it was in your TED talk about the things

that we think that are unlovable about ourselves are actually the things we need to go towards, which is such a concept that people think, well, I could never tell anybody about, we're not even just talking about sexuality and gender, just shame that we have about where we failed or should be better, we should be smarter, we should be more fit or all the, all the worries. And you're a living example of that. You were told you can't wear these shoes, you can't dress this way. You were probably bullied.

Yeah, I was bullied actually inside and outside of my home. The places where you are supposed to be safest, I was not. And you know, instead of becoming angry myself, instead of choosing bitterness, heaviness, and obsession with getting even, right? I've chosen to help other people make the same transition, pun intended, that I did from being misunderstood, being bullied, to helping people heal. And it's the same thing you do. So, you know, we recognize each other. We do, we do. So, Jeffrey, what was the turning point for you when you thought, I'm not gonna be bullied

and I'm gonna go towards the pain. I'm gonna go towards this and I'm gonna live this life of accepting and loving myself. Cause we often say, I say it all the time, if you don't love yourself, it's gonna be really hard or even like yourself. It's gonna be really hard to find a genuine, someone else to love you.

And people are like, oh yeah, self love, blah, blah, blah. But you've walked the walk, talked the talk, and I'd love to know what that looked like for you. What a moment. I love how you just said that. Self love, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, cause you were like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, hashtag self love, like, yeah, but no, but it's not.

So what I love is that you're such an example of this, of somebody who really took that. People are like, hear it, but they's not. So what I love is that you're such an example of this, of somebody who really took that. People are like, hear it, but they're like, yeah, but then they don't hear the negative tape. Like, oh yeah, I love myself. And they're like, you're an idiot, you know, just so they don't really make the difference. No, you're exactly right.

Yes, so they read hashtag self love on Instagram and then they switch. I was gonna make a Twitter joke, they switch over to Twitter and find self-hate. But what I mean is, you know, they get off Instagram and all of a sudden it's a deluge inside their mind that you did this wrong, you were so stupid, the people at work are laughing at you, you know,

all of that stuff happening internally. And I'll tell you a really, really quick story about the monastery where I trained. I was there for an extended stay. So I've been studying Zen for over 20 years now. And I was at the monastery for an extended stay and I was about to leave and go to the real world for a while, to the outside world for a while.

And the night before I left, I had very strong feelings like I did not want to be here anymore and went to the meditation hall and meditated and then petitioned the monastery the next day to stay longer. And they said yes. And so I stayed a little bit longer. And what I was able to see is that for me, I can't speak for anyone else, for me, those feelings, those sensations, that heaviness, that darkness,

however you want to call it, arrived when I was just on the edge of a real sense of freedom and lightness. That it was in a way a spiritual sort of counterbalance. Yes. So in my experience, people who are the heaviest in this life have that chance to be the lightest. Huh. Wow.

So what you're saying is- And I try to help people to do that. Okay, so I'm gonna go back to the monastery. Where was the monastery? If you... In California, Bay Area. Oh, cause I lived in San Francisco for 20 years. Was it the Zen or was it Green Gull?

This was way outside, way outside the Bay Area in the woods, the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas, which is a gorgeous place. I mean, as you know, California anyway, is a gorgeous place. I mean, as you know, California anyway is a gorgeous place. But I was just, yeah. So it's sort of like the story of the Buddha, like sitting under the Bodhi tree

when everything he's been there, he's been there for days. And then all of a sudden all the negative, it's like a final bullied, like, you can't do this. You're a bad person. Whatever it was, it's like the negative. Mara is the name of it. Mara, Mara.

And then right after that was when he found enlightenment. Right, the Buddha found enlightenment. Are you saying that in a way you were there the night before you were leaving and you felt this heaviness that you wanted to leave? You're like, I gotta get out. Is that what you felt? I gotta get out of here?

Oh, I was- And then you say they wanted to stay. Maybe I was a little too euphemistic. I wanted to leave Earth. Oh, you were saying like, I wanted to live this life. Yes. Okay, I wasn't sure I was going to make a difference. But what's similar in a way about that? Okay, got it. Wow. You felt after all the days there meditating, you thought I'm not going to go back out there. I want to spend my life because this is something people don't talk about in self-care but sometimes

when you go into that sort of work the systems that have been keeping you you will kick so far into trying to keep you from breaking free that things will get very dark so it happens to a lot of people because you've been using them your whole life they don't want you to get rid of your protective it's like your defenses they don't want to be lot of people. Because they're holding on to you because you've been using them your whole life. They don't want you to get rid of your protective. It's like your defenses. They don't want to be out of a job. Yeah. They don't want to be out of a job. Exactly. They don't want to be out of a job. All of our negatives, all of our defenses are like, nope, we're not going to release it. So then you stayed an extra and you had this enlightenment epiphany. Chance. Chance. And so that was the moment you stayed for a little bit longer and you thought, no,

I'm going to live and I'm going to live this life. Yeah. And I'll tell you, the guy that the monastery said, you know, you'll notice that there's no cliff at the monastery property. There's no lake. There's no, because it's really essential that people who are doing self care are extra kind to themselves are extra protective of themselves, have every support possible, have every person that they can reach out to available while they're doing this work. And that circles back to what we mentioned about needs

and having them and being clear about them. It's so hard to get to see, even just you're saying like, these are my pronouns and here's the needs and I need to be respected, especially pleasers. So I'm a pleaser and I have a hard time asking for my needs a lot of times. And I end up doing things that I, you know,

afterwards regret, I don't want, I wanna be liked, I want, you know, and regret. I don't want, I want to be liked. I want, you know, and I know now it's so clear to me that I'm really, I've been doing so much work around it that it's, it's always glaring when I do it now. So I'm trying, but we're talking about kind of a little bit, um, adjacent to setting boundaries, right. And letting people know how to treat you. Right. And that is such a practice too.

We are so not taught any of this So you got out of the monastery and I guess we're talking 20 years ago. So you've been on this path now for a while Yeah, and it was off and on with the same monastery for 20 years. So that was after one of my stays and You know Can you go deep for a moment? What's a need that you have? Say it on the pocket. What's a need I have that I don't currently have

or just a need? I need to be- Just name one. Loved, respected. Right? Like, isn't that so human and simple? And every single person tries to live their whole life not admitting that they need to be loved.

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Cause we think, well, if someone really loves me, and this isn't even conscious sometimes, if they let me, if I really let someone in to love me and they see all of my darkness, well, they won't really love me because we're so, we have so much shame around who we really are. Wow. Yeah. And that probably comes right out of our childhood, right? Oh, it all comes from childhood. Right? If we could just present to our parents or whoever, caregivers image that lovable lineage and not show them all the

whole picture of what's going on with us. I don't know if you've experienced this, but a lot of people I coach with were always the child that no one had to worry about. I've absolutely heard it. I know I have these people as friends and they you know what I mean? Like you're the one that can't get their needs met because no one thinks about me. I'm over here. I'm the good one. I, you know, nobody has to worry about you and not the, you know, not the like discipline problem or whatever a different childhood experience would be. But it's to me, when I did that, when I was a kid, I used Jesus as that shield and I was, I could quote the Bible and I was the most like in with Jesus kind of person. And I was using it as a shield in a way to seem perfect and

lovable and all of that stuff. As like a bookend, you know, having gone on this spiritual journey to be not currently Christian, not harboring any resentment toward Christianity in the least, but I'm not Christian at the moment. So many Christians write to me and say, they use the exact same language in every DM, they say I remind them of Jesus. And so there's some sort of like symmetry of what I've devoted my life to is some sort of bookend to what I was raised with. Well, that must be because you were raised with it. So it's truly part of who you are.

Are there parts of it though that you can still respect and honor? Parts of being Lutheran? Parts of Christianity, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like, for example example if you read the things Jesus said in the Bible thumbs up That really is spiritually sound stuff I was told as a kid. So an example of the other side. I was told as a kid You're you know, Jesus doesn't love you. God hates you. You're never going to heaven Unless you change who you are that's what and out of your home told you this you're never going to heaven unless you change who you are. And out of your home told you this. You're so brave Jeffrey that you, so many people stay in those environments because they're so afraid to leave family and to leave what's perceived as the only love they have. But it's really around people who aren't willing to

accept them as who they are. Can I say something weird? Yes, of course. I think that exchange to stay small in order to be safe, I think that takes bravery in a weird way. Yeah, that is- That to me is somebody really on the edge. You're so right, that is really brave. Mm-hmm.

It's all brave, because we're all trying to survive, right? I think so. When I use that word brave... It's good. I mean, it takes a lot of spiritual, mental, emotional energy and focus to hide who you are 24 7. Well, that's the thing.

Hiding. I know I did. We're not even talking about sexuality, just hiding that you don't want to be in a relationship that you're in or living. Or hiding that you have needs to bring it back around. Needs. So how do you work with people to you help them?

That's kind of one of the bases, like what is a need? So going back to that, well, we also don't even have the language to even ask for what we want without being, especially if you grew up at a home where your needs were just irrelevant, which was sort of my upbringing that no one ever asked what I wanted. It was like, it didn't matter. I was on everyone else's agenda and it wasn't important. And it wasn't nurturing. And it wasn't getting granted. My mom's great or in a good place, but she had her own, everyone's parents does, they love you in the best way they can, okay? But I'm still trying to figure out now, sometimes like what are my needs?

Because when you're somebody who's constantly like, everyone else's needs are more important, or no one ever asked me, I remember going to college in my 20s or 18, and I remember just feeling like, who am I? I don't know what I want to eat or where I want to sit or what I want to be. And I didn't have the words then to say, oh, you're 18 and you just came from your home and no one ever

asked you what you wanted or what you needed. What I did is, and this is something I still struggled with and I work on is that I just beat myself up. That's actually when I remember my negative tape got really loud like, God, you're so stupid. Like, how do you not know what everyone else knows? Even though I was at a good college, I was just like, everyone's smarter. Everyone had better parents who asked them about their needs. I was just like, how did I get to be 18 and not know myself?

And it wasn't until therapy and all the years realizing, well, no one freaking asked and I didn't feel seen. So it's interesting journey. Yeah. Anyway, I haven't thought about that either. Yeah. Did you just say anyways? No.

Anyways, no, I see. I don't take up a lot of space for my own. I don't usually. Yeah, because that was a brilliant story. Don't anyways it. There are a couple of things that I loved in that, because we're all told by that negative self tape, that we are especially awful. But every single person is going around being told that they're especially awful, which is something that makes us all the same. And brings us all together. And the other thing I love

about your story is, you know, there's no 18 year old alive who is clear on what they want. Well, that's a good point. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And then some people have the parents that are constantly telling them what they should be and what they should do. And then those people feel oppressed

because they're like, I didn't want to be a doctor. I didn't want to be a pastor. I didn't want, you know, so they don't have choice. So at least I, you know, we had a choice. And oh, and I got some really good questions from our Instagram listeners that might kind of help us with this. But first, when I say to you, let's go back to the basics. Yes. So that's what we say non-binary. Yes. And we use, you asked, I never got a chance to address it, but you asked, you know, were you all sitting in a room together talking about this stuff?

And it sort of seems like that, but we were talking to each other and fueling each other and supporting each other on places like Tumblr, if you remember Tumblr and Vine. And you know, we were coming out as non-binary and connecting with each other. I remember DMing with other non-binary activists and stuff like that. And we thought, for example, they as a pronoun is so convenient because people use it to mean one person already. People say, someone left their wallet here. I hope they come back and get it.

I wish they weren't so forgetful to leave their wallet. You're saying they, and you mean one person. So we just thought, oh my goodness, I don't have to be a he, I don't have to be a she. I can be a they. And it has become one of the cornerstones of our movement, because it is so important to use respectful language. And we didn't anticipate that, you know, quote unquote pronouns would become this big deal, but they certainly have. And it's simply because

it's so important for respect. And now I feel like in the last few years people are starting to definitely come around. I mean you see social media people are coming around to it but they're still sort of confused by some of it but I think it gets easier than you talk about it. It's like great whatever you want. No you know what it's like? People there are a few things that it's like, so you have a friend who gets married and their name changes. Well, you stumble over it for a while. And then, you know, you just use a new name. There's no big deal, right? So you could find out a new set of pronouns

for someone and you stumble over it for a while and then it just becomes second nature. And also, like, you don't know the gender of a dog and you use they. People do all the time. You don't know the gender of an unborn baby and then the baby's born and you know the gender and you just start using whatever pronouns are next, right? So there are lots of examples of us showing respect by using language in certain ways. That's all we're asking for. Now let's talk about that. So they then pronounce for trans and gender non-conforming people. So what about trans? Because not everyone trans is not binary, right? Correct. Yes. So the T in LGBT stands for trans and it's used as an umbrella term for people who are not

the gender they were assigned at birth. So that's what I, that's the language I was using before. And it's the easiest for this conversation. So Laverne Cox has a birth certificate somewhere that says one thing and Laverne is Laverne now and transitioned to be a she her. I have a birth certificate that says that it does not say non-binary. I can guarantee that. And I have transitioned and now come out as non-binary. So we're both trans, even though I use they, them, Laverne uses she her. Does all of that make sense?

That makes sense. Yeah. Because people get caught up, like it means that you have to have an operation or it means that you have to take hormones or it means it doesn't mean anything. Oh gosh, yes. And you know, in my bio, you were talking about how I was the first person to talk about this stuff openly on national TV. And I was asked about my genitals. Yeah, when you come out as trans, you give up a certain amount of privacy. Right, no, that's true. Well, even in my industry, like assume that I'm sleeping with everybody.

Well, yeah, of course. But no, I get it, but it's actually a trans. You're like, that's, and you say that's not okay to ask me that? What do you do? What is the right way to handle that? I've chosen to live a life where, and hopefully you notice how charming I am. I've chosen to live a life where, and hopefully you notice how charming I am.

I've chosen to live a life where people can ask me anything, because that's what I want to give to the world. So when I was asked about that on TV, I just answered, honestly, the reason it's not the best idea is because not everybody wants to talk about their genitalia. So don't ask everybody, what can I ask what genitalia you have? Yeah, I have a penis and it doesn't make me a man. Right, exactly. A penis does not make you a man. Yes, there are women in this world with penises.

Tis true. Right. And you know, I am not a biologist, but biology is incredibly complicated. And gender is usually an amalgam of a few things. Poor people, they think about chromosomes, they think about hormones, they think about what's called secondary sex characteristics. So whether you have facial hair or not, they think about your genitalia, right? All of those things kind of mush together, make up a gender for the lay person. For biologists, it's much more complicated than that. But all the things I just mentioned are incredibly like vibrant, wild, weird. There are people

in humanity who are born with all kinds of genitalia. Right. All kinds. There are XXY chromosomes. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of hormone levels. There are women who are what we call cisgender women. So non-trans women whose birth certificate says woman and they live as a woman, right? Who have facial hair.

Right. So it happens. It just happens. It's hormones. It's everything. What is gender based on? And the reason it's a good question to ask yourself is now we're getting extra deep, but I know you like that.

It can be a system of oppression. Yes. Separate and unequal genders. That's what we're amounting to. Yes. Separate and unequal genders. That's what we're amounting to. So I'm sure everybody was raised with the idea that in the binary gender system, one gender is better than the other gender. And if you even conceive of people like me

who are not either of those two, we're horrible, right? We're certainly not better than men. You know what I mean? Right, you're really putting up. I'm so glad the work you're doing because I hope to see this in the world in the next five, ten years where we just don't even see it. I mean don't you think these younger people who are saying, well I don't know what I am and I'm not declaring it, I was celebrating that. I think absolutely. If parents embrace that. If parents embrace it, that's the thing.

I think parents, at least some parents I know are, are embracing it more so I think because there are more role models like yourself. But not- When parents embrace that, they send a message of autonomy to their child that you are in the driver's seat of declaring who you are, which may be the biggest gift that a parent could give to their kid. And it's so hard for parents because a lot of parents see their kids

as an extensions of themselves, right? And they think, well, if my kid is a certain way, then people aren't gonna respect me. You know what I mean? It's what is everyone gonna think? But I think this is such great words to hear because do you feel like? There's more and more people now because of hormones and all these studies that saying that people born after 92

have less are born with less testosterone and less estrogen and Or do you think that there's just more people talking about it now? Yeah. Well, no, I think it's something that We'll see. Yeah You know, it's it's just unclear right now. You make me think of a couple of things though. Tell me. Do you mind? Yeah.

But if you dig into the historical record, there's always been trans people. There's always been people who have not been a man or a woman and we've talked about them in different ways and conceived of them in different ways. And in some cultures, they've been celebrated and seen as closer to God than other folks. And in some cultures, they've just been, you know, mundane, and they're seen

as the same as other people, right? It's just, we've always been around. And the other thing you made me think of is when left-handedness, a genetic trait, when it became more acceptable, I'm using quotes around this, the number of left-handed people skyrocketed. But of course, what I mean is more people could use their left hand because it was natural for them because it was destigmatized. So as we destigmatize being non-binary and being trans, you're going to hear about more people doing it because they've always been there. This is the question we got from Instagram a few times because now I'm saying they're more so someone said for people who are non-binary how does their sexual preference work? So

it's a good question. You could still be non-binary but gay you could be non-binary and lesbian right because sexuality what about sexuality and gender? So I'm sure you... The kids on TikTok say, I'm a non-binary lesbian. I love it. Because you would think the term lesbian relies on one person being a woman and the other person being a woman. But not to lump everyone together, of course, but the kids today, I can't believe I'm,

I sound like such a 43 year old. The kids today are just so liberated that the words are something that they can pick and choose to suit their needs when they talk about what they want or who they want to be with or how they're feeling in that particular moment. And I take such inspiration from that approach to gender and sexuality. It's the right way to go. So we're saying it's the tagline. What was the actual question?

I should probably answer the actual question. For people who are non-binary, how does their sexual preference work? This is going to be the most like you answer. You got to communicate with your partner, right? That's the answer because I came out as non-binary and my partner said, well, what does that make me? And I was like, I don't know. What does that make you? It doesn't make you any, right? It doesn't have to do with sexuality and gender section. It's different.

Over the coming weeks, we had to discuss it. And you know, it basically means you're attracted to me. So great. So then did you decide not to use... Is your partner... Can I ask how your partner identifies? We use the word queer because it's very inclusive to us. Okay. And so, cause we know we're not, you know, we're not gonna use the word straight to describe what we're doing. He's a he, him, he's a man.

Okay. And so we went through a time of discussing it. Okay. Yeah. Got it, you came to it. Can you discuss, and I've never, bi-phobia, especially in regards to bi men. Yeah.

There's a lot of bi people. And again, it kind of goes to like, you can't be bi, you must choose. It just seems like it's just people who just don't have a lot of information. People with the child. So people don't. Well, it's like your friend saying,

how does a 14 year old know that they're bi if they haven't been with anyone? It's like, you must know that sexuality is a whole lot more than just what you do with whom. There's a whole matrix of an inner life of emotions and crushes and attractions and we are complicated, messy, beautiful creatures that have a whole lot going on. Because this comes up a lot. There's a whole lot of just in culture in general, there's a whole lot of on because this comes up a lot. There's a whole lot of, just in culture in general, there's a whole lot of by erasure. So when a by person is with a

certain person, they get X label, that's not by. When they're with a different person, they get a different label, that's not by. And they just declaring themselves by can bi is can be such an act of self reliance because they're aware of the truth of their attraction. Yeah, and I guess queer is just an easier way to say it too, I think, to get out of the bi thing. Couldn't you just be, I just think queer is all encompassing now. Yeah, and I think a lot of people find the term bi useful because of the way their attraction works. And of course you'd wanna talk to a bi person about why that label is so powerful for them. But I like queer because it's just so, you know.

I like queer too. It's a messy word. It is, it is. It's good. And I like that about it. Yeah, exactly. Well, first I wanna go back to one thing when you were talking about, we were both talking about younger people who are coming out and hopefully their parents embrace

it. But how can parents learn to embrace it? Embrace their child's choices around the gender. I know, again, we'll emphasize for everybody, and I know what you mean, but we'll emphasize that it's not a choice. It's an inherent thing that happens to your kid. Did I say that? Choices around their, okay. Well, I think you were saying like choosing to come out, which is a choice. Choosing to come out, that's what I meant. Right.

But so many people just want to assume that it's a choice and they can convince their kid not to be who they are, and that's not good. So the answer, of course, because I coach a lot of parents is you have to demonstrate total loving self acceptance. You know this from your work. Nobody's going to pick up what you're putting down unless you're putting it down.

Meaning nobody's going to get any lesson from you. This is my experience. No one's going to get any wisdom from you. This is my experience. No one's gonna get any wisdom from you unless you are demonstrating a person who knows that wisdom and lives it. So no one will take me seriously as an authority on self-compassion unless I am doing it. And it's the same for how do I raise a kid?

Yeah, but that's then learning people self-compassion who have never loved themselves. They have to do the work. It's the answer nobody wants. And talking about gender, moms especially are conditioned to sacrifice their entire selves and their lives for their family and children. And all your children will get from that

is that women should sacrifice their whole selves and their whole lives for other people. Yes. I hate to put it so bluntly. No, I know. I have friends like that too. What you want to demonstrate is self-reliance and loving yourself and self-care. I love it. So you're part of your coaching program, which people can find on your site which is Jeffrey Marsh.com. I love that you offer coaching to parents and to everybody but it seems like this would be a really you'd be busy right now. Can I oh my gosh and can I let you

in on a secret? Please. A bunch of parents come to me and say can you coach my 14 year old who's non-binary, you know, needs help coming out at school or whatever. And I always say, oh yes, of course, what I like to do is have one session with the parents first. And invariably the parents end up coaching with me. And we may somewhere down the road get to helping the 14 year old, but it really needs parenting is such a journey of self discovery. And every parent wants to pawn off the self discovery onto the other people in the family and help them do it.

But you can't. I love that you turned, I didn't even know where that was going. You redirected like, let's start with you, parent. Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. I trick them. You do, you're good at that. I can You do. You're good at that. I trick them into loving themselves. You've such a wonderful way about you. It's true. A lot of us are just, it's just so hard. And would you say that you

still have slip-ups? You still have days, times where you don't feel, does it go away? And do you ever feel like some days, eh? Or no, you've just sort of been doing it for so long that you always love yourself without the negative stuff. No, I love that you're asking about slip ups because I need more clarity from you. Define a slip up. Okay, so- In self care.

In self care, I'm really hard on myself. I have these negative tapes. I don't ask for what I need. I think it's my fault. I assume I'm the wrong, you know, but then I have to like stop myself and turn it around and sometimes every day, but sometimes for days it's fine, you know what I mean? That kind of slip up. I wasn't the most loving to myself today. Like, I mean, not today, but in general, those kind of days. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love it.

So a slip up is any time where you don't meet the standard of self care for that day. If that's the definition, no, I don't have slip ups because I have no standards for self care. Tell me about that. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Why are you bearing the lead?

What do you mean? Tell me about that. Dun dun dun. Dun dun dun. Why are you bearing the lead? What do you mean? There's no day where I'm supposed to do anything or achieve anything with self-care. I do not, nope, uh-uh, not going there.

So is there, could there be a day where I fall into where an old self-tape is playing? Oh my gosh, yes. Like a self hate internal tape? Yeah, sure. You know, some people think that achieving some kind of spiritual happiness or whatever means that you won't have yourself hate tapes play anymore. But no, no, I don't I don't find that to be true for me. Sometimes it's like stimulus and response. It's so ingrained, it'll start. But I don't take it seriously and I don't listen and it doesn't ruin my life.

What do you do? Don't care about it. You just kind of let it go. You're like, there it goes again. Everyone's got their own ways of. I depending on the situation, I will start telling myself very kind things in the sense that my self talk is my business. And I'm going to choose. I'll literally close my eyes and say, I love you, Jeffrey. Thank you for who you are. I'm glad you're here. I know you're trying really

hard today. Thank you for that. You know, we're just taught to abandon ourselves, frankly. And all I do is try to come on back. Do you have any advice then, like what we could be doing for more self-care for ourselves then if you don't have a daily practice around it? I wrote the book. The thing I'll say is that it's very poignant to me that the time when we need self-compassion the most is the time

when we're least able to give it, meaning the most difficult time in anyone's self-compassion journey is going to be the very beginning of it. And that's when you're least talented at it. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I mean, you want to give up. So the time when you are absolutely the most desperate, when you're least talented at it. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm, I mean, you wanna give up. So the time when you are absolutely the most desperate, when you absolutely should forgive yourself, love yourself unconditionally, let yourself off the hook,

when you should just be pouring love, like over your psyche at every single waking minute is the time when you least know how to do that. And it's just one of the ironies of the self-compassion journey. Some people, when they start a self-compassion journey, will start to think ignorance is bliss. And I should have like never started this.

You know what I mean? Cause you start to feel worse. Yeah, like it's harder than it, yes. For a while. Yeah, and you start uncovering these patterns, but then blaming yourself for the patterns and you start hating yourself even more than when you were just kind of like showing up to work late with your Starbucks and not thinking about it. Right. Yeah. That's to me is very

funny and difficult. So the advice would be, be as kind to yourself as you can keep going. It does absolutely get better. You get more talented at it. You find friends that are going to match your same goals and where you're pointed to. So important to find those people in your life. I think so. So I'm glad to be here with you. I know, me too. It's so nice to talk to you here. And how would you like to see language change and evolve around pronouns over time? Oh, that's a really interesting one. You know, people often ask me, do I want eventually

for everyone to use they, them? And the answer is absolutely not. Because a lot of people love she, her, and they are a woman, and that's who they are. And I would never, you know, there's this common misconception that people like me want to like tear down gender or something. Quite the opposite.

I want everyone to love whatever gender they are. And that's what I'm into. So our language is going to evolve. I mean, there's nothing we can do to stop it contrary to popular belief. And I would just want it to become that, whatever way is gonna be more inclusive. And can I let you in on a little secret?

Yes. There's probably something on the frontier that we will begin to not call ourselves non-binary anymore because it refers to what we're not. And so we might start to use language to talk about what we are. That's where words like gender fluid comes in and stuff like that.

Gender fluid sounds kind of more fun. Doesn't it? Yeah. Gender fluid, because our sexuality is fluid. Gender can be fun. Isn't that a good message? Yeah, how about I'm gender fun? I'm gender fun. Gender enthusiastic, gender enthusiastic, gender delightful.

Here's another question. How can we make space for the non-binary community? I think the most important thing you could do as an ally, this is going to sound so tragic, but I don't mean it that way. Don't look at us with disgust. That's your assignment. So a lot of us leave the house and we're wearing what we wear and we're presenting how we present and there is something that is gender different about somebody in public. Don't treat that person unkindly. That's your assignment. Cause a lot of people have, are just have been trained into an initial reaction of finding us gross or scarier or difficult or whatever.

It's just threatening. Yeah. And just don't do that, please. Treat us like full, beautiful human beings. That's a good answer. Okay. Thank you, it's an important one. So, it is, it's a really important answer because people, because they say like you're wearing makeup, eyelashes, which are fabulous.

I look gorgeous, you complimented my skin. You do look gorgeous, your skin. Skincare, but also foundation, that's the way. Right, of course, same, same. So most days this is how you dress, you dress more. Oh, indeed, yeah. Okay, yeah, so next time just be kind, is what you dress. You dress more. Oh, indeed, yeah. Okay. Yeah, so next time just be kind.

That's what we're saying, be kind. What about in your book, so How to Be You, which is now the audio format just came out, people can listen to your delightful voice. You're doing more hyping of my brand than I am. I love it. Thank you. Yeah.

How can you be so spiritual? This is the point of a book. No, sometimes I feel like I gotta sneak in a reference to the audio book. Well, I think I'm honored that you're on the show and I always want my guests to leave here feeling satisfied and they got their needs met and it was a good experience.

And so I wanna celebrate you. You're so kind. In your book, how can listeners be more authentic and embrace who they are? That's something I know you talk a lot about, which is a very broad question, but like, authenticity is being thrown around. You got to be real. But how? I mean, it took me a long time.

I mean, I think I'm pretty authentic. I mean, this is what I do, but I, for younger, I don't know, any age, I guess, how do we do it? Well, you know what people ask me the most is, how can I be confident? Right. That exact word. All the time. You're so confident, how can I be like you?

And I always have this pause, and I really take in that question, because what people are seeing in me is not competence. You know, I realized this a while ago. What you are witnessing is 100% complete, enthusiastic self-acceptance. To me, confidence is part of a binary. So you're going to be confident sometimes

and not confident other times. And to me, there's a different plate. There's a non-binary approach where you accept whether you feel confident or not. You just are an acceptance machine and you just accept everything about yourself and that's what people witness and call confidence. That is such an interesting way to look at it. So what we're saying is when you're authentically yourself and you truly deeply accept yourself for all of your

blessings and strengths and weaknesses, that's the most confident thing we can do. We can show up at that confidence. But I think it's interesting to get that authenticity. I guess that makes sense is confidence because you're like, this is who I am. I'm here showing up fully as myself. And people think it's like, I have to stand up straight. I have to say these certain things to be confident, but it's not about any of that. It's really about an embodiment of who you truly are. Ooh, you got it.

Yes. It's not about meeting a standard of what confidence is. It's about that authenticity. And you know, when I went, I've done TV a few times, and it's not like it's not nerve wracking to go into a studio and have the lights there and you know, everything. It's just that I know, but I seem confident or people call it that whatever, you know,

whatever that means. And it's not necessarily that I feel internally confident. It's just that I know that I have my back no matter what. No matter what happens in that TV appearance, no matter what happens on a podcast, to be meta-meta, you know, no matter what happens afterwards, I'm going to be kind with myself, nice to myself. I'm going to have a snack. I'm going to do something I love, Nice to myself. I'm gonna have a snack. I'm gonna do something I love You know, I'm gonna enjoy myself

Yeah We have to have our own backs. We have to be on our own side. We have to be in our own teams Sometimes we abandon ourselves, right? You might have noticed no one else is doing it. No one's doing it for you Everyone's doing it for you. We're very few people, let's put it that way. I love this. I love everything that you're talking about today, Jeffrey. Your podcast saves lives. You knew that. Changes lives, yes, but saves them as well.

You are undoing shame. And shame is what holds people down the most. Yes, it's true. And you're reaching in there to the things shame is built on, the foundations. And you're, I was about to say ripping that stuff out, but you're gentler than that. You're just challenging that stuff.

And it's so deeply important. Thank you for saying that. I realize how much of sexuality is caught up in shame why we don't fully express ourselves is because we have shame. So I'm just trying to help people spot it. And people can't even tell, you know, people that they're going to have sex with what they like what they want. They enjoy. We don't have sex. Right. This is actually what I'm working on

right now in a book. This exact thing is about this areas when I'm writing and saying, I've been doing this for so it's like, oh, there are all the ways that we hold ourselves back. We don't ask for what we need because we're shameful for that. Our partners are going to judge us for wanting something. We think we don't deserve it. We think they're going to leave us. We think they're going to feel bad about themselves. And then I'm going to feel like a bad partner because I made them feel bad by asking for something. We have everything goes back to shame. You realize that. So that's sort of, I can't tell you more about it, but that's what it is

right now. And so I love that you picked that up. Thank you. I feel, I love secret projects. Thank you. I know. I'll tell you why. I would love to connect with you more about everything. I have to ask, you know, Jeffrey, the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. These are just quick, whatever comes to mind. You were? Okay. What's your biggest turn on? Eyes. Biggest turn off? Toxic masculinity.

What makes good sex? Communication. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Oh my goodness. Do as much as you like and want. Enjoy yourself. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? You're not wrong and bad for enjoyment.

Beautiful answers. Right? Yes. And some answers you might have given. I mean, your work has been so impactful for me. So thank you. Oh really? Oh thank you. I'm so honored. I'm so impactful for me. So thank you. Oh really? Thank you. I'm so honored.

I'm so happy to be connected with you. Where can people find you, Jeffrey, and all the things you've going on right now? The best answers. Well, find me on the Instagram. You can search my name. It's J-E-F-F-R-E-Y, M-A-R-S-H. And I'm also a star on tick tock.

Okay. It's all Jeffrey March. Yeah. And I love the personal connection. So I ask people, you know, if they want to connect with me or whatever, my email is right there, it's on my website, it's on my Instagram page. You want to work together, whatever, do coaching you, you email me and that starts the ball rolling. Oh my God.

And where are you located? I'm in sunny Los Angeles. Oh, okay. So why? That's why I'm sort of backlit today. Oh, I am too in Los Angeles. Yes, I am. Okay.

We should meet. I know. I would love to meet you. I know. And I'll be totally, totally vaccinated in a few days. So. Okay, good. Okay. We can absolutely have a cup of tea. I would love that. But I would love to have a cup of tea. Jeffrey, thank you. This is fabulous. I love talking to you.

That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to Sex with Emily. And if you love this show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or a partner. It might just spark some love. And if you're interested in this show, you can find it on YouTube.

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