Sex With Emily - Where’s the Line? Redefining Cheating in the Digital Age

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

In this episode of Sex With Emily, Dr. Emily takes a deep dive into the evolving landscape of infidelity in 2025. She unpacks how cheating today goes far beyond physical acts—covering emotional connections, digital interactions like DMs, social media behaviors, and even fantasies. Dr. Emily challenges listeners to rethink old assumptions and instead foster open conversations about boundaries, values, and intimacy, drawing insights from how polyamorous relationships navigate these topics. With real-life stories, listener questions, and expert advice from holistic psychologist Dr. Scott Lyons, this episode explores the impact of porn, the gray areas of "micro-cheating," and how communication can prevent betrayal. Dr. Emily also shares strategies for healing after trust is broken, including key statistics, self-reflection practices, and tips to understand your attachment style. #relationship #dating #cheating Show Notes; 00:00:00 - Defining & Preventing Infidelity 00:03:15 - Defining Infidelity in Relationships 08:12 - Relationship Boundaries & Communication 13:41 - Marriage Insecurities & Betrayal 19:19 - Confessions of a Reformed Cheater 22:31 - Open Relationships & Cheating 25:00 - Regret, Empathy & Modern Love 35:38 - Overcoming Relationship Hurdles 38:28 - Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity 45:44 - Monogamy, Polyamory & Attachment Access exclusive sex coaching, live expert sessions, community building, and tools to enhance your pleasure and relationships with Dr. Emily Morse. Join the SmartSX Membership : https://sexwithemily.com/smartsx ⁠Explore pleasure, deepen connections, and enhance intimacy using these Sex With Emily downloadable guides. List & Other Sex With Emily Guides: https://sexwithemily.com/guides/ SHOP WITH EMILY!: https://bit.ly/3rNSNcZ (free shipping on orders over $99)Want more? Visit the Sex With Emily Website: https://sexwithemily.com/ Let’s get social: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sexwithemily/ X https://twitter.com/sexwithemily Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sexwithemily TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@sexwithemily Threads https://www.threads.net/@sexwithemily Let’s text: Sign up here https://sexwithemily.com/text Full show notes here: https://sexwithemily.com/wheres-the-line-…-the-digital-age/

What's so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York. It was John Hamm, right? And he had all these like lovers and he was like cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating, except one day a phone bill came in. Like remember, you used to get the printed phone bills and be like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't hers. So she's like, here's every phone call. And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't hers. So she's like, you were cheating on me.

Have you ever been cheated on? Ever thought about cheating yourself? Or maybe you're just wondering what even counts as cheating? Is it sex? Is it flirting? Is it DMing your ex at 2am with a just thinking about you text? Well, if you haven't talked about it with your partner, don't worry, you are so not alone. And I'll be honest, I'm a reformed cheater and in this episode, we're diving into the messy, murky waters of infidelity. What it means in 2025, how to prevent it and

how to come back from it if it happens. Spoiler, the definition of cheating is not one size fits all. For some it's sex, for others it's like in a thirst trap. By the end of this episode, you're going to learn how to define cheating in your relationship before assumptions turn into accusations. So we're going to cover why just feeling it out isn't enough, the exact questions to ask your partner about boundaries, what to do with those fantasies you're afraid to say out loud, hint they might actually unlock deeper intimacy, and how to stop letting jealousy wreck you and instead use it as a window into your

desires. We'll also talk tech and temptation, work DMs, late nights like digital flings, and what real repair looks like if betrayal has happened in a relationship. This episode is packed with real talk, actionable tools, and even AI scripts to help you define your values, set clear boundaries, and build trust that actually lasts.

Whether you're trying to prevent cheating, recover from it, or just stay ahead of the chaos, this is a conversation you don't wanna miss. So let's get into it. My co-host today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a dear friend and a licensed holistic psychologist. He's a body-based trauma expert and author of Addicted to Drama.

He's helped over a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma, and drama through his signature somatic approach. Scott is the founder of the Embodylab, the go-to platform for learning body-based trauma therapies and the creator of somatic stress release taught in over 20 countries.

You wanna go deeper? Use code SEX WITH EMILY for a discount on any Embodylab program at the Embodylab.com. You are going to love it. Let's talk about cheating today because there are so much information coming in. There's DMs, there's questions, there's emails like, is this cheating? Have I been cheated on? There's so many different ways to cheat now.

What constitutes cheating? Uh I been cheated on? There's so many different ways to cheat now. What constitutes cheating? A DM? A flirty little look across the room? Could it be porn watching? People think that's cheating. I got so many emails. I want to help the people. Let's read an email. Okay. So here's some things that have come in just to give you the overview. Okay. that have come in just to give you the overview. Number one, I'm living in the misery of a sexless marriage so to meet my sexual needs I have to masturbate. My problem with it is the porn it requires.

Is there another way? So let me explain this to you Keith. It's this guy from a guy named Keith. First let's just cover the porn thing. In many, many relationships, porn is considered cheating. So it sounds to me like in Keith's relationship he feels guilty about using porn. So just so you know in a lot of heterosexual relationships this is one of the huge hot-button issues. Couples never talk about it. They make assumptions

that when we get married well my partner would never watch porn again because they've got me. Why else would they need it? They don't understand that porn is actually a healthy part of sexual expression. And I always tell couples, listen, your partner is going to be watching it when you get together. They're going to be watching a winder together. They're going to watch it when you're not together because it's actually, it could be something that's completely separate than the relationship. Well, I think, I mean, I have a bigger question. Like what do you,

what constitutes cheating? Like, what is the definition of cheating? This is it. Right? There's so many things that couples do not discuss when they get married or commit. And I think this should be one of them. Like, there's gotta be a forum that's like, do you think if I watch porn, is that cheating? If I take a weekend with friends, is that cheating?

If I like someone's photo on Instagram, is that cheating? If I dance with someone at a bar and you're not friends, is that cheating? If I like someone's photo on Instagram, is that cheating? If I dance with someone at a bar, you're not there, is that cheating? So it's like, cheating is actually kind of subjective. Yes. Like there's no universal definition. No. What do you think cheating is, Em?

I think that objectively, most people would say if you're in a committed relationship where you haven't discussed boundaries and you haven't discussed like what is on and and off that if you exchange bodily fluids with somebody have an orgasm with someone else make out with somebody else that that's probably cheating for some people then there's the whole emotional cheating you've talked to this person every day at work you've shared everything about our life like if I'm married to someone and like oh but your office wife has

become your new you know confidant that that could be cheating too. So there's all these different ways to define it but I think the standard definition is like you bang someone else. Yeah. And you were together and that was a violation. But now since social media and there's all these different ways to connect to people you know what I always think about? Did you ever watch Mad Men? No. Okay. So I barely got through it, but it was amazing show came out, whatever.

You know what it is. Yeah, yeah. 20, came out 10 years ago. But what's so interesting to me, this always sticks out to me, is that there was a scene where he was like this big ad exec in New York. It was John Hamm, right? And he had all these like lovers

and he was like cheating all the time. She had no way to know that he was cheating except one day a phone bill came in. Like remember you used to get the printed phone bills and be like here's every phone call? And so she saw that there was all these numbers to other people from the home phone that weren't her so she's like you were cheating on me. And I'm guessing like cheating's been around like that was like in the 60s or the 50s that show I'm guessing people have been cheating for I don't know why I always think about that cuz I'm like that was so simple that was like one bill that pointed to

the cheating but now it's like you could find it out on Instagram you're following your partner's location someone saw you at the bar they'd like let your partner know like if there's a million ways to get caught now with cheating. But then it also comes down to most couples don't even discuss like, I'm fine if my partner watches porn, but again, for so many, it is cheating. So I think that when couples decide that they're gonna commit

for the rest of their lives together, they've discussed like, among other things, is this cheating? Would it be cheating to you if I masturbate and think about somebody else? Yeah. Is it cheating if I... yeah. And it's gonna bring up tension. I think that's like we have to normalize that a lot because if I said to you we just started a relationship and one of the first questions I ask you at it like we're rolling out of bed we're getting our

coffee and I'm like hey Em what's cheating mean to you? Like the first thought most people have is why are they asking me this and Are they going to cheat on me which is you know that negative bias in their brain going? Oh shit? You know that's probably for many people. That's a big fear for me. It's a huge fear in a relationship I got to flip it that into like what are the boundaries like what what is our it's more like I love the way you're saying that because to start off with what's cheating will be that will not go anywhere Like, I love the way you're saying that, because to start off with what's cheating will be, that will not go anywhere helpful. But maybe it's more like, what are our values around intimacy?

Are we only sleeping with each other? Let's make an assumption that I'm not gonna sleep with anybody else, that you're not gonna sleep with anybody else, but in that category, should be like, what about porn? What about texting somebody else of another gender? And then as it comes along, couples need to keep revisiting these conversations.

I really like this because when you're navigating polyamory, when you're navigating multiple partners and you're establishing the rules, that is where you have typically been having the conversation about what is cheating. Where like, hey, this, like, yes, you can go sleep with someone, but you can't make out with someone on the dance floor,

you know, or like no kissing, or no second dates, whatever it is in that navigation. But I love this because so rarely in more monogamous situations, because it's subjective. It actually is subjective. It's subjective. It's nuanced for sure. And I know if you're listening you're like no it's not subjective. It's really clear what is cheating. It's actually not. It's not. It is for you and that's what's important and now you need to communicate and express that to the

person you're with. I want every couple to have this conversation. I think they can learn from people in open relationships or in polyamorous relationships. Don't cry, I know people are like, no that doesn't work or that's crazy. I'm not saying that you need to be in it but the protocols that people in open relationships go through are like, oh okay well when we're at play parties we get to hook up with someone else. There will be no kissing. There will be like you set up the boundaries and the rules and then you get to adjust them as you as you go along. But the problem is is that most relationships they're like, we're

together, we're monogamous till death do us part, nothing else will ever happen. I will never be attracted to anybody else again, nor will you. There won't be any ambiguity and I'm also gonna make assumptions that you actually are gonna stop your porn watching. And I think part of this lack of communication is what leads to the high statistics on cheating. Yes. Right it's not the only reason we'll talk about the reasons as to why cheating often happens but the lack of communication the lack of even the conversation is is already starting to hide things. Because we all have, like as humans,

we all have fantasies, we all have thoughts. And yes, this is about, do we action them? How far can we action them? Do we even express the fantasies when it's not about our partner, to our partner? All of those are really important to discuss, but as humans, if we just shame the fact that we hide, that leads to less communication

and more opportunity to have bigger ruptures. I mean, there's just so much nuance that this should all be discussed. Couples that wanna have these conversations. What if we were to have the conversation now like we were a couple? Let's do it. Okay, so we're having our morning coffee and our sex with Emily Muggs,

which makes the coffee so much spicier. And I say to you like, hey, Anne, we haven't had this conversation yet, but I really wanna talk about an aspect of our intimacy. Yes. And I love that line, by the way, and I'm gonna repeat it here which is you know my monogamy may not be your monogamy and I really want to align about where that is for us.

Like what might feel like a rupture for you? I don't even have to say cheating but what might feel like a rupture for you? I always want to say cheating is like a buzzy but I feel it's more like our beliefs and values around monogamy. If we I feel it's more like our beliefs and values around it. If we're monogamous, what are our beliefs and values around it? And then, yeah, we could decide what is, we both believe it and then what might be seen as cheating, right? So what are your, yeah, I love that.

What are your beliefs and values? I believe that if we're monogamous, I would guess that we're only sleeping with each other, that we're using protection if you don't know that's it's I guess if we're open. Like obviously we're only sleeping with each other. Like I also understand that sometimes relationships and attraction can meander over time and fade and things twist and turn and I would want us always to have an open dialogue about should something happen or should there be some fantasy that comes up for you or

there's something that you're like, Oh, I think it'd be kind of hot to have a threesome or like I would want to know. Like I know right now in our relationship, we're in a really good place where our sex is really great. It's really exciting. But but I would want to know, like if you are attracted to someone outside the relationship, how might we handle it? Do you think that fantasizing is a form of cheating? This is really interesting because we you know from a neuroscience perspective we innately daydream, right? We daydream and even dreaming. It's like, I remember a couple I worked with

and he had expressed to her that he had a dream about sleeping with someone. And we might go, amazing communication. Thank you for communicating. And for her, she said, you cheated on me. And she couldn't let it go. And she even said to me, she was like, I know this is crazy.

I know this is ridiculous, but I can't get over the sense that he was dreaming about someone else besides me and we talked you know like we broke down some of the neuroscience of where dreams come from and what that might mean and their symbolism there and other things like that but damn that's a really big one though that is so a common like we can't help it if we have dreams about somebody else. People have dreams about sleeping with their ex all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean they wanna sleep with their ex or they have fantasies about someone else.

But this is the tricky part. This is where in a relationship we have to say, do you want to hear that information rather than just offering that? Well, and we can't necessarily take it at face value if there's a fantasy or a dream. So if you said to me, hey, I just had this sort of fantasy

about the other cameraman. And I- He's so cute. Cute, super cute cameraman today. Yeah. And I said to you, okay, thank you for letting me know that. What's happening in you?

Like, oh, you're- I always feel better that I share it. Say, to me, this stuff should be out in the open. Yeah. I would love you just to be able to hear that and accept me and not feel like, well, look, obviously we're firing that cameraman. Yeah, but I think what's important here is, yes.

Shame dies when we have a safe place to share our stories. Right? And that's an important aspect because shame shuts us down relationally. And more importantly is like, I'm really interested in if it wasn't just about the cameraman, what's present for you? Oh, part of the fantasy is I'm feeling more aroused today. Or maybe I'm feeling a little lonely. Maybe there's something underneath the fantasy that we can connect about. Yeah, there's something more to that about like me feeling like, oh,

if I'm only committing to you, then it feels like it's shutting off this part of me where I get a lot of valid. I get a lot of internal valid. I love validation from men. Yeah. So I would love to feel like, oh, there could be something there, like the possibility of something new and sparky, even though I don't necessarily wanna have sex with him, I just like to have that attract, like is that something that I could still have

in the boundaries of our relationship? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hey Emily, I've been a long time listener. I thought things were doing pretty well in my marriage. Up until recently, my husband told me that he fantasizes about one of my friends and has been basically our entire relationship. He does it sometimes too to get off while he's having sex with me and it's thrown me for a loop and made me feel pretty insecure. Yeah, I would feel pretty insecure too. To me it feels like a

betrayal and almost like cheating because he's doing it to get off inside of me when I should be the one arousing him. How do I even go about handling this? What are your thoughts on this? Where do I go from here? Look forward to hearing from you. I get that he was trying to be really honest probably in some way, but how is she ever going to recover from the fact that every time her husband's having sex with her, he's thinking about her friend to get off and get aroused? Like that's a rupture that I don't know how we're gonna repair that one. So to me, they didn't do the underground. Like you have to say, is it okay if I share with you my,

how do you feel about me fantasizing? Do you wanna know about it? He didn't clear any of that. And so now they're in more trouble. That just felt like I wanted to cover that. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's like, it gets really tricky. If you find yourself projecting someone else's face onto your partner

and someone else's body onto your partner, like you can't be with your partner, then I think that's an important pause point, you know, to go, Whoa, maybe this isn't the match that I want, Or maybe I need to do some self-reflection or maybe I need to do some work. Or maybe, you know, oftentimes we can get stuck in fantasy as a way to avoid intimacy. Yes, well that's right.

Disassociation. Dissociate, disconnection, projecting someone else's face. It's like what's happening under the hood of that fantasy and projection. That's the material that we need to be talking about, connecting about. Not, hey, I'm fantasizing about your best friend

while I'm having sex with you. Where do we go from there? We can't. But hey, I did some self-reflection work and I realized I'm disconnecting a little bit while we're intimate or I felt rejected lately from you and have been putting someone else's face,

you know, like whatever it is. And it felt safer to do that rather than to connect with you intimately. So there's, and we're just talking about more of like the psychology, we're not even getting into like my partner had an affair. So should we get into some of those stats too? Because we're talking about the nuance

but then there's the full on like, my partner slept with someone else and didn't tell me. And that happens. Okay, so there's some juicy infidelity stats. The prevalence, it says about 20 to 25% of married people admit to having cheated on their spouse at some point. And then around 40% of unmarried people report having been cheating on by a romantic partner.

Then we got into the gender gap is shrinking. I just found this was interesting and then we can break this down that historically men reported higher rates of cheating but the gap is closing. Women under 30 are now just as likely as men to cheat. So this is all the people that are going to report. It might be higher. But what do you think about that? They admit having cheating. When I hear cheating, I'm feeling it's a physical cheating. Yeah, most likely it's a physical cheating and most likely they're talking about kind of an extreme. So sex. Yes. And, you know, not to make people more paranoid, but.

What is the actual self-reporting rate? You know what I mean? Like that saying 20 and 25% are report, yes, doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of other people that are not reporting or will lie even in a study. And if you're. It could be double that number. It could be double that number.

And if you're listening and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me really scared about intimacy, you're in the right place. It's fair. This is why communication and conversation needs to be happening around this subject matter with partners and not in just a threatening way. Well, I feel like couples who really are able to talk about

all the things that are surrounding cheating and why people cheat and get ahead of it and troubleshoot it and be like, let's talk about all the promises to each other that we're gonna have frequent check-ins about our relationships, that is in our sex, and we ever find that we're not having sex and we're not meeting each other needs, let's talk about before the cheating happens.

And I think that's what happens that couples don't really have the basis so they're like I'm feeling unseen I'm feeling like my partner isn't prioritizing me I'm feeling lonely in the relationship I mean there's so many reasons why people cheat and they say some of the top reasons are feeling emotionally neglected or lonely, they want variety, seeking validation or self-esteem boost, revenge, falling out of love, sexual dissatisfaction. So there's a lot of different reasons for it

and I would like to just make a confession here. Okay. That I am a reformed cheater, I used to be a cheater. What do you mean by that? I mean that in my 20s and early 30s, I was in relationships for probably two, I was like a serial monogamist. And I also had a job where I was traveling a lot

internationally and I would like have these fun, like I'd meet some guy in an airplane And I would like have these fun, like I'd meet some guy in an airplane or be in Thailand at some beautiful hotel. And it was like, it felt just like a fun little romp, a fun little experience that was very, very exciting. And it wasn't necessarily for me because I was missing anything in my relationship. It was more like it was never like in the same city.

Like me trying to be like my cheating wasn't as bad because I was not on US soil. I was I was I was in Asia. But I mean this is not uncommon. Just just a moment to go like the creativity that people have to justify the action as a way of avoiding either own shame or like the pain they caused or to even address the underlying patterns is rich in creativity.

I've heard some wild ones. But I like this one, you know, I wasn't on US soil so it wasn't quite cheating. Well, that's what I'm telling you and it sounds really fucked up. And it says people in happy relationships still cheat. In fact, 34% of those who admitted cheating reported feeling happy and very happy with their partner.

So for me, it was like, I was young. I had all these, I don't even know if I told you this, I do these international trade missions with legislators and I would travel and stay in these beautiful hotels. and I would meet just really interesting people and we'd be drinking and be like a one night thing and I'd be like I don't know if I'm gonna see them again but it was like it was like the excitement the build-up and so yes I had a partner back in you know wherever I was living San Francisco at the time and I just sort of felt like it felt so far away and it was almost like

I went to the opera this night. It was like an experience I had. I went to a play and I happened to have sex with somebody in another country. But what I decided is that doesn't feel great to me either. So I decided that I was going to never do that again. I never wanted to be a cheater. And so I started to talk to my partners about that

in my most recent relationships. I full on say like like I've been... Have you ever wished you could ask me your most personal sex or relationship questions and then actually get an answer? Like how do I stop overthinking during sex? How do I ask for what I really want or how do I reignite the spark in my relationship? Well, now you can. I created Smart Ass Sex to give you exclusive access to me and to other top experts I trust so you can finally get real honest answers, personalized guidance, and the tools to have your best sex life yet.

We've got live events, Q&As, weekly tips, and a supportive no-shame community where nothing is off limits. Sounds like exactly what you've been needing, right? Go to any app store, look up SmartSX, or click the link in the show notes. I'll see you there. Your best sex life awaits you. I've not been faithful in the past and I never want this to happen again. So it's really important to me that we have boundaries around it and we talk about it. And in my most recent relationship we were like, and he was much more open too. And he was like, great, if something happens,

you're gonna, like, let me know, let me know ahead of time if it's about to happen. Now that's tricky with the time difference. If I'm like, hey, there's this really hot guy and I really want to sleep with him. But like, we were so much more open to it that, I don't know, that's not gonna be everyone's partner, but, and then I'm actually way, way less interested

in it now too. But I have a lot of guilt around that because I just knew that somehow it wasn't right and I had so much opportunity and anyway that's me have you been cheated on yeah I've definitely been cheated on I've never cheated to my knowledge okay to my subjective knowledge but yeah no I've definitely been cheated on and you know it it's I remember like just overriding it in myself. I mean like about 55 to 70% of couples try to work it out, right?

And I remember going, it's okay, we can work this out. This really hurt me, but you know, and every time I try to even talk about it, I got blamed for it. You got blamed for their cheating. I got blamed for it. You got blamed for their cheating? I got blamed for the cheating, yeah. Not even like valid excuses in my book of like, hey, you've been neglectful of my needs. It was just like, yeah, I didn't like the way

you said something so I wouldn't cheat it. You know, like just shitty behavior. And I had gotten to a point where I was like, okay, if we just communicate it, all I care about is the communication. Like, if you have to go do this, talk to me about it. And that wasn't a possibility. But also, you know, the rules kept changing.

And they kept changing the rules? They kept changing, yeah, the rules of like, okay, I can sleep with people, these three people who I've had, you know, these sort of fantasy relationships with in the past. Like it almost doesn't count because they're already been with them?

Yeah, like that was their rule. And I was like, okay. And at the time I was just trying to be the cool boyfriend, like, and just be like, yeah, I'm cool with anything. I'm the coolest. And like, it really I'm cool with anything. I'm the coolest. And it really hurts. And yeah, and in the end they kept changing it. Like they would make out with someone on dance floor

and I was like, hey, that was in our rule set. And then they would get mad at me for calling them out. Those are red flags. If you cannot communicate and someone gets utterly defensive, that's a no go. But there's also something that's interesting, I'm gonna ask you back this, is I didn't see any empathy for the pain it caused me either.

And this is not uncommon for individuals, although like 70, what, 70-some percent of people actually admit to feeling regret after cheating. The rest? Yeah, most people do. But your partners, you didn't feel any, they turned it on you, they kind of gaslit you or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's not in the sphere of being able to repair it. Like, we'll talk about repair, but like, when there's no regret, when there's no compassion or empathy of how that affects the other person,

there's no, that's not a foundation to which you can heal and prepare from it. No, you can't, especially because if they're not feeling empathy for you there, how are they feeling empathy for you in other parts of the relationships? And that's like really, really hurtful, but I think also this brings back to like- Did you feel regret?

I, honestly?ful, but I think also this brings back to like... Did you feel regret? I honestly... Yeah, honestly. I never got caught. It never came up again. So I was like, I felt like I was able to compartmentalize it, but I did feel a little bit bad because I was like, I was also backpacking for a year through Southeast Asia. My boyfriend was in San Francisco at the time, so I felt like I had this sort of free range to do what I wanted. But yeah, no, I did. I felt like a little bit, but then I actually told him, and he was fine because it turned out he was sleeping with half of his office and we were all fine. We were in our 20s, it was all fine. But I feel like the

nuance here and what for actually for the modern age of dating with like social media and people being out there and like meeting so many different types of people, like I think monogamy is a huge struggle for people, but so are open relationships. And it's not for everybody. Some people are like, I could never do that. But then there's a lot of people who are like, like I'm kind of, I'm down with it. So I just think I would love to invite people to have really honest conversations with themselves and their partners about like how they actually feel about some some playing like some going to a play party every once in a while like i know a lot of couples who are like no we're completely monogamous except for when we go to

a play party like and then we're allowed to make out or allowed to have sex with someone else when my partner is there there's like all these different ways that couples cheat or get their needs met. It's when it's not, when it's, you know, cheating is like when it's like the true infidelity and you're not actually sharing it and you're doing it behind someone's back. But I think for some people, like I actually have thought that maybe I'm just not really someone

who is preternaturally monogamous. Like I've never felt that I'm monogamous in my soul. Yeah. Like in my, like I think I've always been a little bit more flex. And this is a really interesting piece in psychology, especially on polyamory. I know a good friend of mine, Jessica Fern, who wrote the book Polysecure. Oh yeah. And we've had a lot of conversations about this, which is, am I an individual who's just not constructed made for polyamory, excuse

me, monogamy, if I'm not a person made for monogamy, or is this a manifestation of my insecure attachment style? Mmm, say more. Like, you know, when we have a, let's say, avoidant attachment style where we like withhold we have trouble being in relation to other people we feel overwhelmed by them and that stems from as infants oftentimes caregivers that are too overwhelming to our nervous system so we grow up and that carries forward with us and then we feel like yeah I don't really like I don trust people, I don't find that relationships

make my life better or whatever the belief system is or the reflex of just going, when people get too close, I get overwhelmed and then I push people away or I escape. And that can lead to less intimate one-on-one encounters and more of a desire to jump between people Yeah, it's tricky. It's so fucking tricky. It's like Yeah, it's just tricky This is the kind of stuff why it's so important to be like aware of your attachment styles of and your upbringing and that like not Everybody's gonna be on the same page with you

I feel like when you're finding a partner, we have to be honest about this stuff. Even if we think we have like a proclivity towards maybe being more open, I think a lot of us don't really wanna talk about that because we're afraid we're gonna push them away. But how much better to be like really honest about it in the jump so you're not, you know.

I had a great conversation with someone the other day about this. I just went on a few dates with them and they were really clear they're like i love and only do monogamy and i was like cool what's your definition of monogamy so it actually came up and he was like it means that there's no one else in the picture no one else were sleeping with. And I said, oh, interesting, because for some couples, monogamy includes three sims, as long as you're together. And I said, I don't mind that.

And for him, he was like, no, no, no, that's not monogamy, that's not okay. In his definition. Yeah, and then he called me the next day and he was like, look, I don't think we can date if that's what you like. And I said, well, I think let's pause and I wanna recognize you're having a response that's important for me to hear,

which is, do you feel scared? Do you feel nervous? Do you feel like I might do something that might abandon you? He was like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's true for me. And I was like, well, let's have this honest conversation because I might get the opportunity to say, I like you enough that I wanna really make sure

that you feel safe and secure and threesomes aren't that important to me. But if you just make the assumption based on your reflexive trigger, we're not going anywhere. Yeah, no, that's great to kind of break it, break down the nuance of it. He was just like, because maybe if you guys did build a foundation,

you felt really secure, then maybe the threesome would be open. It was also triggering. We don't really know what it means. So you can just like shut down from that for sure. Like I had a boyfriend once who was like, I actually think it was a fetish and not even just a fantasy. His fetish around threesomes, meaning that every time we would have sex or he would masturbate,

he had to think about a threesome to get off. Like he'd be like, right now I'm picturing like another woman going down on you, like that was his thing. So to me that's a fetish if it's a requirement for arousal. And I was like, and early on I was like, okay, I can roll with this, but then eventually he was like,

are we gonna have a threesome, we're gonna have a threesome. And I was like, we haven't been together that long, I don't really want to. And then we kind of like had to end, it was like that was, I can roll play this ship. And eventually he was like, are we gonna have a threesome? We're gonna have a threesome. And I was like, we haven't been together that long. I don't really want to. And then we kind of like had to end. It was like, that was all he was focused on. It was like somehow he easily got wired to that. And that was like too much. But maybe, yeah.

So I think that there's just so many different ways that this plays out. And what I love about this conversation is like we all, I wish, and maybe we could create this, like some kind of form. Maybe we could do it as my Smart SX membership, my community, that people could have another forum, kind of like the yes, no, maybe,

they could download this series of questions that you ask someone in a new relationship. I mean, I know we don't wanna have these questions because early on, it's amazing, I can't imagine sleeping with anyone else, you're my everything, but like, guess what? Reality checks in, the honeymoon phase dies. you're going to have arousal or attraction to somebody else.

So how do you start to answer these questions? Like honestly, an opening, you know, cause a lot of times cheating isn't always about like a dissatisfaction with the person. It's sometimes it's about looking for like connection or looking for like a lost part of ourself that we might feel with a new partner that this partner can't really give to us. It's not about a whole relationship it's just like some sex is just about connection and intimacy but it's like oh this person made me feel a certain way and I want to do this like one-off experience with them but I don't know I just think that we have such a

tight rein around sex where sometimes we're just trying to I don't know, I just think that we have such a tight rein around sex where sometimes we're just trying to, I don't know, I think that we're just trying to fill, it's really hard when we want one partner to fill multiple roles in our life as our best friend and our lover, very Esther Perel style, but like you should have a best friend, my lover, my confidant, my plus one, my emergency contact, and the only person I wanna fuck for the rest of my life. Like that's a lot of pressure on someone.

So to say like maybe we go to a play party, like I know a lot of couples who are like, four times a year we go to a play party. When I mean play party, it's usually like an invite only where couples go and they like swing and they do something and like that satisfies their needs. Or maybe they spend a week apart where they do whatever they want.

And you know, so I just think, I wanna give, just want to paint a picture like there's a lot of if cheating is a problem in Your relationship is like your biggest fear There might be a way to sort of break it down in a way that could work for you Is that all? Yeah tracking and I think there's a few other like things like micro cheating which I think is interesting especially in like, if I, yeah, like social media, like if I'm hearting all your photos, Em, and I'm with someone else, am I micro cheating?

Right? If the intention is about attention, and this like, you know, way that, that might fall under the category of emotional cheating. Let's talk about that. I'm telling you, it says that social media site is the starting point for over 20% of affairs today. Really? I about that. Yeah, let's talk about it. I'm telling you, it says that social media's site is the starting point for over 20 percent of affairs today.

Really? I hear from people all the time, they're like, I told my partner to stop liking all these bikini photos of this woman and he will not stop. He's doing it every day and it feels awful to me and he won't stop. So to me, like, yeah, I get why that is cheating adjacent because you just feel like violated and I would say to them like tell your partner like it doesn't make me feel great and secure in our relationship when you're doing that but somebody just can't stop but it says it's responsible if they call it like micro cheating flirting DMing private texting that's reported by 45 to 50% of

people as problematic even if it's not technically cheating. So I think that that's like I don't know if I told someone that if I was with a partner and I was like baby it doesn't make me feel good I won't want them to be like done like I will never I'm I will not do that anymore like what is it because what why are they doing it what is it giving them if it's hurting me? And the counter argument often is, is, well, that feels too limiting or you're, you know, why are you trying to control me? Which is, you know, an interesting point too. And it's, it's like if, and I had this with a page, some patients recently where that

was the case. She was like, I hate that he's sitting next to me in bed on Instagram liking other girls' photos. And one of the questions I asked is, is he liking anyone else's photos? She was like, yeah, he likes these photos on rabbits. He's really into rabbits. And I was like, do you think he's having

an affair with the rabbit? And I'm not trying to be snarky. But I'm trying, you know, this is the thing. It's like, when it's our fear, when it's our own trigger, we might, we do, we narrow our perception and our focus onto the thing we are most scared about. So I am blocking out all the other things that might also be here in the present moment. I'm blocking out all the rabbits he's herding. I'm blocking out all the males he's herding,

like his friends. And it's like, and who are these women? And she was like, oh, these women are his friends. And I was like, okay, so I want to address this doesn't make you feel great. That's important. Let's all sit with that and let's break it down. And if we break it down and it still feels like

this is a no-go, then that's a negotiation between you and your partner, and which is different than, and this is where it gets tricky. It's like, is that different than just full on cheating? I'm just glad that they're talking about it. Yeah, because what's funky is when we, well, it's a high statistic of couples

that try to save their marriage or try to save their relationships, but only about 15% of them make it. Yeah, let's talk about that after, how to help couples heal from the cheating. Oh yeah. Do you wanna get into that? Let's get into that like it says like like they say like stop, you know We talked about like stop the affair completely Stop that shit. Whatever whatever it is. You want to stop it and say like okay

I'm back to like working and rebuilding our trust our relationship. So You have any need total transparency relationship. So you need total transparency, acknowledge the pain, you need your partner to be like, I'm really sorry that I like sounds like you didn't have that. You didn't have a partner who was like, oh my god, that must have been really, really hard for you. You had to go through that. The betrayed partner needs to express their feelings of like rage and grief and confusion and all the things. And that partner kind of has to take it. Right? And listen and listen and then you got to open the conversation beyond the facts. Sometimes couples focus on like what happened? I want the details. Did you go down and then were you naked? Did you take foot whatever? But really it's like what? What do you think about that? Yes, I say once. One time. One time only. And anything after that you're starting to attach to the details and not to the most important piece which is the rupture in the relationship and what's happening in you and what's happening in your partner. Yeah. If we get too attached

to the details to the story we are just cycling in a trauma vortex. Absolutely. Yeah. Like the, the, the, like then you can't get those images out of your head. So it's more like what did the affair mean to you? Like what was missing? What were you longing for? What was going on in your head? Like getting that, those kind of questions, right? Like what is happening in our relationship, not just between you and the affair partner, but like what's really happening with us? Yeah. And then you got to eventually shift from the blame to the curiosity, like what does this mean for us? Do you think we can rebuild?

Like what is this messaging us about our relationship? Where do we need to go? Like what is it revealed? What do we need moving forward? And then you gotta rebuild trust. Now this is where I think a lot of couples fall, like it's really fucking hard to rebuild trust. You just go to therapy once.

Like when trust is broken, it's really fucking hard to rebuild trust. You just go to therapy once. When trust is broken, it is such a rupture that a lot of couples can never repair it. So you really just can't, I don't know. I mean, sometimes people have like, I'm gonna share you all my passwords. You're gonna be able to see everything. You're gonna follow my location.

That will work temporarily, but that's not actually how we rebuild trust. Yeah, it's just time. It's what it's... Time can be helpful, but a lot of things can happen in that time that don't rebuild the trust. So it's actual work. It's, hey, Em, I know we had this big rupture where you, you know, you slept with someone else. Yesterday, I had this moment where I had a little flashback and I felt really alone and I texted you and I didn't hear back in an hour and I got really anxious.

And there's this ownership in that, in the partner's job in that moment is to just reflect back. You got really anxious when they didn't text you back for the hour. Yeah. And it really anxious when they didn't text you back for the hour. Yeah. And it really brought up some old feelings and some imagery from the past. And how can I be with you in this moment

to support and love you and really reflect back that I'm here with you? I'm committed. So that's really beautiful. So part of that would be like, okay, I hear that you got triggered when you didn't hear from me, so now maybe a resolve to that would be like, so I promise that I will text Josephine Abouan

and make the best effort to text you right back when you text me, right, to make you feel. Because simply you giving me your location and I start checking it actually induces more anxiety and dopamine. So every time I check the phone as to where you are because I think you're cheating on me, I get a little dopamine hit.

And that makes it pretty confusing because all of a sudden I'm becoming attached to the process of anytime I'm anxious and feeling a little better, it's associated with the paranoia and mistrust I have. That is so true. I'm just remembering now when my boyfriend cheated on me in my 20s. Oh, you have been cheated on? I have been cheated on. I just remember this. Well, I, yes. The same guy you cheated on? Yes, he cheated on me, but it was a long story.

I was traveling and then I came back and he's like, oh my god, I didn't, I was with nobody, but it turned out he literally slept with everyone in the city. So then I started including his massage therapist, but at the time there was like answering machines and I got the code to his answering machine. So I would obsessively call and listen to his answering machine and the messages. And that was like a, every time I went to his house, I was digging for paper. I was looking for evidence, looking for evidence. And I, and I became like this crazy, like I became.

Neurotically obsessed with like, if he was like a minute late, like he's like, I'm going to the drug store to get something. And he was like, two minutes later, like clearly he's fallen in love with the cashier. Like I would create crazy stories in my head. So I get exactly what you're saying. It made me someone who got very jealous and insecure because I didn't trust him. Yeah. It's a hard loop to break. And I will say like, I've been on that same loop

when I've been cheated on, and I would, like, check where their phone is, and I'm like, oh, they haven't moved in an hour. Are they really, you know, when they say they're out with, you know, and it's, and that's a point where I recognize, and it's so hard to break, but I recognized in that moment, they can't break this cycle for me.

No. This is about me doing work and seeing if I actually can stay in this relationship with what happened. Yes. Because that loop is exhausting. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. And you think it's helping you, but it's not.

I would obsessively call his voice, like 10 times a day, who else has called him? Who else has called him? So the other thing is like, so you're trying to rebuild trust but it's also interesting to like create a new relationship like where are we now like don't go back to the past it might never it might never be how it was yeah but you could build something new and stronger and just more honest yeah ruptures happen that's a given in any relationship. A cheating is kind of the ultimate rupture

or one of the ultimate ruptures along with a few other ones. And if I constantly like, you don't take out the trash, and I bring back the fury I have and it's because you cheated on me, that's on me. I have to go to therapy, I have to process that, and I have to process it with you, but I cannot keep weaponizing what hasn't been processed against the other person. There is no way to repair that rupture. And even though I might not say, and you cheated on me, it's embedded in you didn't take out the trash.

Right. Oh, it's tricky, but see to me, but couples can also very much repair from this too. It doesn't have to mean that it's the end if you do this kind of work. With a guided therapist, you're willing to look at it. And if you really both genuinely wanna make it work. If one person isn't invested in it, then like, that's probably not gonna, you know, not gonna heal this shit.

No, love is an action and it takes everyone in the relationship to continue to action, to rebuild, to establish and reestablish the relationship to continue to action to rebuild to establish and reestablish the relationship and intimacy. Yes, rebuilding, reinventing together what kind of relationship do you want to co-create now knowing that this rupture happened. Yeah. I love it. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe,

and leave it a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, and X, it's all at Sex with Emily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at SexWithEmily.com for free guides, articles, and more ways to prioritize your pleasure.

Have a question about sex, dating, or relationships? Call my hotline 559-TALK-SEX, that's 559-825-5739, or leave a message at SexWithEmily.com slash ask. And hey, was it good for you? Email me anytime at feedback at sexwithemily.com. I'd love to hear what you're thinking. I'd love to hear what you're thinking.