Sex With Emily - Why You’ve Lost Desire in Your Relationship (And How to Get It Back) l ft. Esther Perel

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

Join the SmartSX Membership : https://sexwithemily.com/smartsx Access exclusive sex coaching, live expert sessions, community building, and tools to enhance your pleasure and relationships with Dr. Emily Morse. List & Other Sex With Emily Guides: https://sexwithemily.com/guides/ Explore pleasure, deepen connections, and enhance intimacy using these Sex With Emily downloadable guides. SHOP WITH EMILY!:https://bit.ly/3rNSNcZ (free shipping on orders over $99) Want more? Visit the Sex With Emily Website: https://sexwithemily.com/ In this episode of Sex with Emily, world-renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel joins us for an intimate conversation about the complexities of modern love, desire, and relationships. From her groundbreaking work on infidelity to her insights on maintaining passion in long-term partnerships, Esther shares the wisdom that has helped millions navigate the tension between security and excitement in love. We explore Esther's core philosophy that desire is not something you have—it's something you cultivate. She breaks down the fundamental paradox of modern relationships: love seeks closeness and security, while desire craves space, novelty, and mystery. We discuss how to integrate these opposing forces and why the question "Can you want what you already have?" is central to sustaining passion over time. Esther reveals why eroticism is truly a state of mind, how pleasure connects directly to self-worth, and her revolutionary perspective on infidelity—that sometimes people don't go elsewhere to find another person, but to find another version of themselves. We also dive into her new card game "Where Should We Begin," designed to foster vulnerability and deep connection through storytelling. This conversation addresses the unrealistic expectations we place on one partner to be our everything, practical tools for managing relationship anxiety, and why modern love requires us to calibrate rather than abandon our expectations. Whether you're single, coupled, or somewhere in between, Esther's insights offer a roadmap for creating more authentic, passionate connections. Timestamps 0:00 - Introduction 2:45 - The evolution from duty to desire 8:02 - Can we experience desire and deep love simultaneously? 11:20 - "I turn myself off when..." vs "I turn myself on when..." 16:00 - Pleasure vs. performance 19:09 - The ice cream exercise 25:52 - One person can't be everything 31:14 - Understanding infidelity 35:10 - Playing the relationship game 44:00 - Dealing with anxiety in love

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body confidence skyrocketed, and overall happiness, it confidence skyrocketed and overall happiness it was up big time. And here's the kicker, the week with no sexual activity at all, participants across the board reported worst scores in every category from mood to body image. Just seven days without pleasure made a measurable difference. But once they introduced the magic wand, everything shifted. So if you needed a reason to prioritize your pleasure, this is it. The magic wand isn't just iconic, research shows it makes you feel better.

Results are live and go check them out today at magicwondstudy.com. And get your magic wand today to join the pleasure revolution. That's magicwandstudy.com. Here's a question for Desai. I turn myself off when? It's very different than you turn me off when and what turns me off is. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex.

Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day. Have you ever found yourself wondering, where did the spark go? Like it used to be so good, the butterflies, the chemistry, the can't keep your hands off each other energy. It all just flowed, and now you're in the same room but something feels off, dull, disconnected. So what happened? And more importantly, can you get that feeling back?

Here's what nobody tells you. We've been asking one person to be everything, your best friend, your co-parent, your financial partner, your emotional support system and your passionate lover. We expect our partner to give us what an entire village used to provide. and then we wonder why desire fades. But what if the problem isn't your relationship? What if it's our completely unrealistic expectations about what love and desire should look like? Today I'm talking with

the legendary Esther Perel, psychotherapist, best-selling author of Mating in Captivity, and the person who's revolutionized how we think about love, sex, and relationships. Esther is breaking down why good sex fades even when couples love each other. The difference between love and desire and how to create the conditions for passion to thrive, not just survive a tide in long-term relationships.

We're covering everything from the art of erotic intelligence to why you need to stop trying to be everything to your partner, plus Esther's game-changing approach to having the conversations that actually transform your sex life. If you've been wondering whether you can reignite that spark or if you're destined for boring routine sex forever, this conversation is going to give you hope. Let's dive in. As Sarah Perel is recognized as one of the most insightful and original voices on modern relationships. As a psychotherapist, Perel has had a therapy practice in New York City for more than

35 years. Perel's celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 30 million views, and she has two best-selling books, Made in Captivity and The State of Affairs. Perel hosts two podcasts, Where Should We Begin and How's Work. You can find more about her at estherperel.com or by following Esther Perel Official on Instagram. Hi, Esther. Welcome to the show. Hey, hey. All right. Let's dive in.

Anyone who's been in a long-term relationship has gone through a phase where the desire for your partner fades. No matter how intense and exciting the honeymoon phase was, you get used to each other and the novelty wears off. So why does the desire for our partners wane in long-term relationships? I know it's a big question. For most of history, sexuality in long-term relationships, which was primarily marriage, was for procreation so that you could have eight children for which you probably needed

to have more because a few were not going to survive. And sex was primarily a woman's marital duty. So you did it because you had to. And you had a motivation too, which was to procreate. We went from the procreative model to the recreative model. We went from duty to desire. We went from sexuality to be a kind of an economic asset, because children were economic assets, to sexuality being for pleasure and for connection. We take it for granted, but it is a massive transformation. And then come the 60s, and we have a number of mini revolutions, but primarily we have the democratization

of contraception, which means that there is a generation F that for the first time has pre-marital sex, has the permission to do what they want, has contraception in their hand, has a sexuality that has been redefined under a completely new organizing principle, and they don't feel like it at home, and they don't know why. Can we want what we already have is the fundamental question of desire. What is the difference between love and desire? How do they relate, but also how do they conflict? Why is it that the forbidden is so erotic?

Why does parenthood deliver such a fatal erotic blow? What is at stake when the very thing that people rely on is the very thing that becomes most fragile? Because we don't think of desire as something that needs to be cultivated, sustained, actively nourished. We think that because in the beginning, for some of us anyway, it's there, it's just going to remain there forever. And the forever keeps on getting longer.

That's the crisis of desire. We had to get married, we became property of the man, and then we thought, well, we get to pick a partner, and it should be based on this love and sex and connection. Well, it's like, what we're talking about is a honeymoon phase, right? That everyone goes through at the beginning of a relationship. No, not everyone, actually. There's many people that start look warm

and become hot later. That is also a myth. That everybody starts with a tremendous amount of erotic enthusiasm for their partner. Some do, but many don't, But we don't say it out loud because the myth says that there should be a honeymoon phase. Okay. Well, so those people like in arranged marriages or they're just making, they're making their own arrangements in their head and they think, well, I'm not attracted to this person, but they're going to be a great

provider. So that's not important to me right now to have that kind of desire. That or I feel deeply emotionally connected to you. You feel safe to me. You will be good to me. You will not hurt me. You will care for me. The fact that I am not as drawn to you physically or feel compatible with you physically is secondary at this moment. My erotic needs and my emotional needs are not aligned

and I am letting my emotional needs be the decisive factor. It's fine. But is it fine? So how important is sex in a long term relationship? It may be very important for that very same person, but maybe the emotional needs superseded and you have to know that, you have to understand that. That same person who made that choice may have been fined for 10, 15 years sometimes

and then that other dormant part of them resurfaces with a vengeance and says, and what about me? But that doesn't mean that there wasn't wrong choice that was made at first, there was a choice that was made for different reasons. And those things, we have the idea that sexual needs and emotional needs are one and the same and they always go neatly aligned together. And that is not necessarily the case. There are people with whom we can have wonderful sexual encounters with whom we would never

want to live a life. And there are people with whom we want to live a whole life, but we have to mourn a kind of erotic flatness that for some of us is a real dear loss. So how do we reckon, I mean, I know that a lot of your work is getting couples to reconcile this and to understand the importance of sex, how they can either get it back, you know, we had it at the beginning,

that's what I hear a lot, at least they had, even if they had it for a week. Even if they had it for another 20 years, that first week was amazing and they all wanna go back. Now you say, you're never gonna go back, but what do we do? Like, can we experience desire and deep love at the same time?

Yes, yes, of course some of us really do. The way I organized it in my head was actually based on the work also of Stephen Mitchell and others. It was not, it wasn't just my original thinking, that we all have two fundamental sets of human needs. And we need security, and we need safety, and stability, and predictability.

We also need adventure and novelty and risk and mystery and sometimes danger. The degree to which these two organizing needs, existential needs in our life live inside of us, will tell you the answer to how important is sex. When you say how important is sex. When you say how important is sex in a long-term relationship, my first answer to you is, for whom? Tell me the story of that person and who that person is and I'll have a better sense of how to answer that rather than some flat, generalizable number.

And each of us straddles these two fundamental needs, and they change in the course of our life. So, some of us will find that the place where we love is also the place where desire feels very free. The safety I feel with you is what unleashes my erotic self. I ask this exercise a lot, where I ask people to separate the page in two. When I think about sex, I think of. When I think about love, I think of. When I am wanted, I feel. When I want, when I desire, I feel. And when I think about desire between you and me. And then on the other side, when I think about love,

when I am loved, when I love, and when I think about the love between you and me. And then you look at the connections. For some people, these two seamlessly flow together and one flows from the other. And for other people, they are rather separately and disconnected. When I love, I feel deeply responsible. When I desire, I want to be free of all responsibility. When, you know, when I...

It's that dance that every person has to explore for themselves then how do you bring them together you tell people it's not the desire just for doing sex desire and the erotic you know I think that that's what frees people up is when I say we're not talking about sex. You can have sex three times a week and feel absolutely nothing. I am not there to help you do it, but I will explore with you. Where do you go in sex? What does sex mean for you? What parts of you get expressed in sex? What is it a vocabulary for, for you? When I go into that frame, it becomes a different conversation.

Women have done sex for centuries and felt nothing. So, desire is not the desire to do it. Here's the question for desire. I turn myself off when or by. It's very different than you turn me off when and what turns me off is. So I turn myself off, say people, I shut down my desire, right? I suppress, I go numb. When I feel self-critical, when I feel not in touch with my body, when I feel not in touch with my body, when I am lonesome of my body, when I don't take time to care for myself,

when I haven't been in nature or listened to music or done something that is aesthetically pleasing, when I feel undeserving of pleasure, when I worry about money, when you and I fight the whole day. Okay? I turn myself on. I awaken myself. I ignite myself, which isn't I turn myself on. I awaken myself. I ignite myself, which isn't you turn me on when and what turns me on is.

People will say I turn myself on when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I dance in the rain, when I meet with friends, when I go to the club. 90% of what they're talking about is not about sex. I turn myself on when I feel alive. I turn myself on when I feel worthy of being desired, when I feel desirable. I turn myself on when I like who I am, when I'm with you. And that notion that desire is the one aspect of sex that you can't force.

You can force people to have sex. You can't force them to want it. But in order to want it, it needs to be worth wanting. Now let's talk about desire for you. Right, right. First off, a lot of people say, you turned me off and you turned me on, but you're empowering people to say,

no, it's a decision, it's a choice. When am I the most turned on? When am I the most turned on? When am I the most turned off? And I bet you it's really easy for a lot of people to answer what turns them off than actually what turns them on. And then that gets into, because you work a lot on eroticism and sexuality as well. And I think they're different, you know, eroticism and feeling desire and feeling like understanding, you know, you always talk about erotic intelligence, right?

Yes. It's a place. You say sex isn't something we do, it's a place we go. I'm interested in the erotic dimension of sex, the poetics, the meaning of it, not what you do. The same gesture in sex can be ultimately pleasurable and soothing and fun, and it can be utterly, you be utterly cringing. It's the same gesture.

It's not this gesture versus that. It's the context where you're at with yourself and with the other that will determine if this becomes a source of connection or a source of hurt. That's the important thing to understand with sex. So what I'm dealing with is the energy. And I distinguish it. The curiosity. The way people stay interested. The way people stay motivated. The way people

use their imagination. What do you think it's like at 70? You're not going to see the same thing that you see at 25, but you may be so much more confident that it actually gets better. Sex gets better with age. It gets better when people are more confident and more self-accepting. Yes. You know, it doesn't have to do with the size of their pants. So to talk about eroticism was a way to liberate the conversation from all the misguided and miscommunicated myths that surround the conversation about sex. I said, okay, let's

eroticism is about imagination, not about the 20 positions that you can come up with or whatever. So when you have couples, for example, do this, like what turns me off, what turns me on, that's the way of them getting into their own understanding about it, that maybe the same sex that could feel good once they realize it oh I'm I am turning myself off but once you guys I found once I'm turned on I'm open for whatever if I'm really in that space but it takes work it's that arousal. And if you're not turned on and I'm not talking just arousal I'm talking available open willing right if you're not willing your partner can do

all the things that you typically like. There's going to be nobody at the reception desk. So it's not what the other person does. The other person can follow your prescriptions. But if you're not into it that day, that moment, nothing's going to happen. I mean, unless you force yourself, but it's not going to be willing. The difference in talking about sex versus eroticism is talking about pleasure versus performance.

Say more about that because I'd love to dive into pleasure. How do we look at pleasure as something that we deserve? Pleasure is not orgasm, first of all. Pleasure is the way you talk to me, the way I look at you, the way your hand hovers around me without even touching me. Pleasure is the attention that you give to me. Pleasure is your willingness to go as slow as I want to go or that, you know, pleasure is the way you're gazing at each other.

Pleasure is not about outcome. It's really not about, you know, how was the sex? We did it and it worked. You know, and I'm like, this is pragmatism applied to eroticism that doesn't really work. So pleasure is not about, you know, getting this thing done. It can happen without any of the trappings of what we consider a sexual act. Pleasure is linked to self-worth because it's about, do I deserve to feel good? And in order to feel deserving of feeling good, of being given to, of being pleasure, of having someone pay attention to me, of feeling safe that they're not going to hurt me, etc., etc., and vice versa.

It demands that I feel lovable and desirable. And so pleasure is directly connected to self-worth. Good sex is directly connected to self-worth. Can I ask for what I want? Can I take the time that I need to take? Can I expect that you would want to do something that maybe is not in your preferences but you're doing it for me? I love to work around sexuality with a vocabulary of key verbs. Like every time you learn a language,

you need to learn the key verbs. Sexuality is a language that demands the key verbs. How do you deal with asking? How comfortable are you to ask? How comfortable are you with the asks of partners, not just a stable partner, any partners? How do you deal with giving? Do you enjoy giving? Do you find giving is just something you need to get through? It's a responsibility. It's a burden. How do you feel about receiving? Do you like the passivity of receiving? Do you only feel that you can receive after you've given because you've earned it? How do you deal with sharing? How do you deal with refusing?

Can you say no? Because if you can't say no, you can't really say yes. How is your experience around these verbs when it comes to your sexual encounters? Yes. You learn a lot. Oh, Esther, those are such great questions to ask because a lot of what we talk about is trying to encourage people to even have the conversation about their sex life. Because a lot of people are comfortable, like I hear from women all the time, like I don't

want someone to go down on me, let's say, or have oral sex because I don't feel I deserve it. It's hard for me to receive, right? And then I was like, well, what other places in your life is it hard to receive? So to look at sex as a giving and receiving, which it really is, and then looking, I mean, I love this, and do we deserve it? And if we're not feeling good in our bodies

or good about ourselves, we absolutely, there's no, if we're not feeling good, what you're saying is if we're not feeling great in our bodies or with our partner, we're not going to be open to it really until we really unpack this. So you know, I once gave an assignment to a patient of mine who was saying exactly what you just said. She came from a story of abuse.

Because I think it was such a powerful story. I will share it with you. I haven't told it in a long time. She came from a story of abuse and she always thought that she liked soap and bubbles and soft things. And then one day after a workshop with me, she comes back home and she attaches herself to the bed and she leaves him a note that says, help me. And never in her life did she think that she would ever go there.

But what she was doing, by creating a situation where she couldn't say, I have enough, all the time when he eats and she's done, she gives him what's left on her plate. I have enough, I don't need more. And that was her stance in sex, I don't need more. So she hadn't had an orgasm in 22 years. And then I said to her, do you like ice cream?

I want you to get yourself the biggest, most luscious, delicious ice cream. And I want you to lick it while you sit in front of him and he just watches. No sharing of the ice cream and I want you to lick it while you sit in front of him and he just watches. No sharing of the ice cream and you can lick it from the top down and the bottom up and she starts to riff with me on how she's going to eat the ice cream and no sharing. That in itself will be a way for you to learn to take, that's another verb, to take and to feel deserving and to receive. But practice it with the ice cream.

Part of what she was trying to find is sexual scripts where she could not say, I have enough. Because it's the other person who is in charge of how much. And once I understood that she was never gonna, and by the way, she had her first orgasm in 22 years too. This makes so much sense, and she just ate the ice cream, which is also a very sensual act too, for him to watch her. Because he wants that for her too. He wants her to feel filled up, right?

But her, she's thinking, I gotta keep giving, I gotta keep giving to have value in my family. Yes, that's it. You got it. That's such a good story. How do we retrain the brain to understand that pleasure is our birthright and not just a reward? Like, I think there's so much about sex and eroticism that we just think we don't deserve it. So, the way I work with it is very experientially. and I don't just retrain the brain, I retrain the physical experience, the embodied experience, which then will send messages to the brain.

So I work a lot with water. What is your preferred temperature of the water? I want you to send in the shower with the perfect temperature for you, and then I want you to notice what is the place on your body where you enjoy it the most. Is it the nape of your neck? Is it the back? Is it your head?

Is it your shoulder? Is it the front? And then I want you to just stay under the shower. And for as long as you can, notice the soothing, pleasurable quality of that water. And if at some point you begin to think, oh, I should turn, I should move, I should wash, I should finish, see if you can extend it just another 30 seconds. You see, you can do it alone, you can do it with the partner watching.

These are all metaphors, transposed metaphors of experiences around pleasure. Imagine that you're eating and your partner is just watching and you're pleasing yourself. You find the thing you like the most. So I work with food a lot. I work with fruits. I work with water. I work with fabric, with clothes, you know, that you experience on your body. What, you know, I work with touch. Do you want hovering touch? This is from the work of Jaya. Do you want, you know, gentle touch?

Do you want straight touch or do you want stipple touch? You know, there's a beautiful exercise, another one, that is really the difference between giving touch and taking touch. So the giving touch, I give touch to you. I stroke your hand and I am thinking of you and my mind is completely focused on you. This is a great retrain exercise. And then there is the taking touch, which is now I continue to stroke your hand, but this time I'm focused on me. It's how I enjoy.

It's the contact of my hand. And you can see people completely change the way they touch. Now I am using your hand for my pleasure and I am taking touch. And now I go back to thinking about you and now I am giving touch. And now I go back to thinking about you. And now I am giving touch. And the distinction that the pleasure, you know, of giving is a different kind than the pleasure of taking. Yes. I remember I was with a guy and he would touch me. He'd come up and say, like they were saying, he would do this thing. And I was like, that might feel good to you. But what we're saying is like

really sometimes just taking sex off the table and practice one of these touching for my pleasure, touching for your pleasure. Yeah. Do you want to know a little secret of mine? Can I take your hand and guide it in the way that really unlocks it for me? Can I show you? And then you literally take the hand and you make, you know, this, this spot. And actually, if you do it in circles, that's my thing. My thing is circles. You know, other people, it's a straight line. Other people, it's a little, you know, straight line. Remember that one. It's really a key for me. It's like everybody can share their little sensual secrets like that with a lover where they're not being critical.

They're really saying, here is the way to get to me. Right. Here's a little secret rather than you never touch me correctly. Correct. It's such a better way to do it. Who doesn't want to make their partner feel good? If they don't, then that's another conversation, right? That's right.

That's exactly it. You know, one of the main kinds of what you talk about in all of your work, like I remember reading in mating, captivity and state of affairs, that all that work says that we have unrealistic expectations really when it comes to marriage and commitment and sex and a long-term relationship. And you've often said like we expect you know

one person to give us what a village used to used to give us. So do you think that we need to change our expectations then? Like what is the solution? I think that the research of Eli Finkel is very compelling for me about that. It's not that you need to change your expectations, it's that they need to calibrate your expectations. Your expectations may be totally fine, but not for one person. One person cannot be an entire community. And marriages need inclusion as well as seclusion.

They need a solid social base. They don't live in a vacuum. Marriages, long-term relationships, partnerships of all types of people, by the way. Live in a context, a social context. And the better, the more solid and rich that social context, the better the couple. That is absolutely clear.

So you cannot easily expect to have a person with whom you have all the things that we used to expect from traditional relationships, companionship, economic support, succession, social status, family life, and have a best friend and a trusted confidant and a passionate lover to boot and a coach and the person who supports you in all your professional endeavors and more and more and more like this. In one person, yeah. And then, right. And this is really a problem of the ideal romantic model of the moment.

And then on top of it, call it a soulmate, which by the way, used to be reserved for God, not for a person. Right. You know. So that is the challenge. The more people calibrate their expectations and realize what they can receive from their partner and where they go to their friends, their family, their colleagues, their mentors. To fill you up. So giving them permission is

what you're saying. Like it's, I think some people think that that's how it has to be. My partner, if my partner isn't my best friend, my confidant, my lover, then I'm doing something wrong. It's not right for me to have emotional connections outside the relationship. So it's almost like people have to change. Because the soulmate model says we have everything we need with each other. You're my one and only. You fulfill all my needs. And that is a recipe for catastrophe. It is a recipe, but we're still everyday people walking down the aisle and making this commitment till death do us part, and it's not realistic.

It really isn't. So you're saying that couples, to go back to what you said, you're saying that couples who have more of a social connection in their community are more successful. Yes, absolutely. They have friends and a life. It's a communal model to relationship. See what happens is that because we have 10 years of single life that we never had in history before we often decide to pick a partner, it becomes you are the person for whom I'm

going to delete my apps. You know, that's a thousand choices suddenly that I'm going to do away with for you, my beloved, my chosen one. And that notion of chosenness then become, you're the one for whom I stopped that whole life, and vice versa, I am. And that leads to this complete mystification of how we are overblown creatures you know, creatures that can, you know, that can fulfill every one of our needs. And that is not actually a good model. That is a good romantic ideal, but it is not a good romantic,

it's not a good model for lifelong partnership and or whatever lifelong will be, you know, but for partnership. Yes, you want to be grounded in a social community. You want needs and interests and activities that are not necessarily with your partner. And the boundary of that, what does that involve, is really the boundary that has expanded and changed the most in modern relationship. In know, in traditional societies, she ain't going anywhere without him. You know, and then she gets to go to work, and then she gets to go and meet friends, and then he gets to go and meet friends,

and then in some places they get to have friends from the other gender, and then in some places they get to have same-sex friends, and then only same-sex friends, and then in other places, you know, and then it goes all the way into the shift from sexual exclusivity to polyamory. This is the boundary. What is inside the couple and what is the boundary around a larger couple, basically? Right.

In some places, you know, you can go hike with other people because I hate hiking. You can go mountain climb with other people because that's not my thing. In other places, it's you have your book club and I have my thing, and you have your friends and I have my friends, and we have our common friends as well. Not everything you do, we go together. Not every party we go to, we go at the same time and leave at the same time. Every couple will define if they are very much of a more merged model or if they are more of a differentiated model of what is us and what is me.

Really every couple gets to decide this, but they often don't have the words or the language to talk about it. And that's when people just go outside the marriage. There's a belief that the one who cheated is the villain and the one who got cheated on is the saint. What I love about your work in this area is that you've illustrated what a complex scenario it is. What do we get wrong about infidelity? I think that what I try to do around infidelity, it was an exploration of what happens when desire goes elsewhere.

Mating in captivity or my online course,kindling desire are helping people with desire on the inside of their relationships. And I wanted to understand, you know, why do people cheat? And even why do people cheat sometimes in happy marriages or in happy relationships? It isn't always just an expression of the discontents inside a relationship. That's a big group of them. But primarily people feel lonely. People feel unseen.

People feel criticized and accepted. People feel they've become a function. People haven't been touched in a decade. That is the kind of reasons on the inside. And then other reasons that have to do with the self, less with the relationship, that not all affairs are symptoms of a relationship that has gone awry. That means sometimes that people become stuck in a role while they're in a relationship, and they go outside not to find another person, but to find another self, to reconnect with

lost parts of themselves. That infidelity is as much about betrayal and deception and duplicity and lying, but it is also about longing and loss and loneliness. I ask an audience, if you've been affected by the experience of infidelity in your life, either because you were the child of a parent who was unfaithful or who left,

or you are the offspring of an illicit love affair or accident, or you are the friend who is the confidant of someone who's either been betrayed or is in the throes of an affair, or you're the third person in the triangle. 80% of an audience will tell me they've been affected by infidelity. So this is not just a few rare rotten apples somewhere else. And that's when I said, this is touching us so much. So many people have been affected by this all over the world.

The book is in 30 languages and I've been in 20 of those countries. I want to find a way to talk about it in a way that's going to be more helpful for all those who've been hurt by it or who've gotten lost by it or who destroyed their entire lives because of it, there must be something that is less

of a black and white model, that embraces the complexity of this very complex thing called adultery that has existed since the day marriage was invented. Yes. And not to condone it, not to condone it. I think that's a very important piece to add to it is to really help people with it rather than just say if it's good or bad.

Right. Yeah, exactly. And you do help people with it so much. So I just recommend that everyone read State of Affairs because people have this notion, well, if someone cheats on me, I'm gone. I'm out of the relationship. Right? And so it doesn't have to be that way.

Right. And, Emily, and that if you stay you stay that you not experience it as a Shame if I had especially as a woman the new mandate for the woman is to leave But you know it's not always so easy life is complicated people have children who need two parents people have economic realities People have elderly parents living with them. It's it's not just so easy to get up and go. And sometimes it's not easy to get up and go because you still care about the person and because the very person who cheated on you may even also have been the one who took care of your elderly father or your alcoholic brother that is a mess and that has come to live with you for

the past two years. Let's put it in the pandemic context. So don't be ashamed over the strength of staying. It demands a lot to do that too. But get help, but there is hope. This is not the only form of betrayal in a relationship. It's all of that. Yeah. It's always very complex, Esther. And I just think everyone, yes,

just please read State of Affairs, everybody. Read all of her books. And they could also get your game. It has such great questions in it. I've been reading them, going through with my team. I thought we could play it. Would you ask me a question? Let's go. Yes. Let's do it. Let's play. You created this just from conversations with friends, right? And sitting around and missing that connection. I created it. It was a pandemic project really because I missed intimacy, connection, my friends, dinner conversations.

I look at relationships as stories. I look at stories as bridges that connect us and that create relationships. And I thought, I want to create a game of stories. But we must find a way to do so, even if we are living in our confined realities. And ever more so now that we are reopening somewhat. And then I began to gather a group of friends in a little pod that was safe for us to be and we began to play with each other and to realize how many stories that were locked

inside of us that we could actually open up to each other and that we never knew of people that were together the whole time. Then there were people playing it on a first date. Then people began to bring it to work. It was the questions of the podcast, the questions of my clinical work brought into a form of play. Play unlocks us. Play allows us to take risks. And I wanted to create a play experience. It's a way of just people being more vulnerable and open and connection, because I don't want to have bullshit superficial, I've never been great at those kinds of conversations.

Now, I think more than ever, we want that kind of connection. And people want deeper conversation and sometimes they don't know how to start. So these are very simple prompts that lead you to just tell stories and you're like, Well, the game is like, it's everything you said, like a relationship is a story. And stories create relationships.

They do. So let's explain. You can play it in the simple version and in the committed version, the casual and the committed. You can just take the cards and ask the questions because the questions in and of themselves are just fantastic. And then you can play it where you combine those story cards and the prompt cards. So the prompt card may say, share something that you've never said out loud or that you've never told anyone or share something crazy. And the card

may be, I can't believe I got away with, or a habit that I secretly want to break. But that is crazy. So you connect prompts with stories, basically. That's the committed version. But go ahead. You have it in front of you, then you start asking, because I can't find a whole bunch of mine here.

Yeah. So I have a sexual situation I've always wanted to try. Share something, and I pick one of these four that gets me worked up. I wouldn't tell my mother, I tell her everything. I wouldn't tell my coworkers, they hear my whole sex life. You've never told anyone that's changed my worldview, I've kept a secret. So I'd pick one of those and I'd answer it. That's right.

A sexual situation I've always wanted to try. I probably wouldn't tell my mother this. Let's see. I've never been Esther, I'll tell you this, with like two men at once. I've dabbled and it's always happened. Maybe three men. That's what I would like. The threesome scenario but with other men. And what in that story, what is the imagination of the multiplicity of men that are there for you?

You know what I think it is, is that I'm a giver and I'm a pleaser. For me, I think just to practice receiving and opening up, and I know exactly what I want, and it's just finding people I can trust. So it's really about just like letting go to a deeper level where I really don't have to do anything in the moment. I'll give back after, but where I can receive all the pleasure. It's a very generous fantasy, actually. You know, the fantasy of multiple partners who are there.

And you know, the beautiful thing about a fantasy is that you are at the same time the author and the protagonist and the director. You get to play all the roles. There is a whole set of questions that are about sex. They're the pink triangle. When you go to work, you can do the safe for work version or when you play with your kids, you take the pink triangles out. They are questions that I have worked with over the years. They've been tested, you know, in my work. They have the questions about the verbs that we discussed. What is the worst kiss I ever had? What is the weirdest date I've ever been on? What is the kink I least understand? Or it's not what is. The kink

I least understand is or the weirdest place I've been that I have never told, that is crazy, that is naughty. You have the prompt that kind of gives an angle to the story. So you can play the story multiple times and it's always a different story. But the questions about sexuality are very, very revealing, but not in a sleazy way. No, not at all. No, in fact, I want to say that there's only a small section that's about sex. I mean, so many of these are just, you could play with your family, you could play with

everyone. There are 250 questions and 30 are about sex. Right, that's it, you guys. 30 are about sex. Of course, those were the ones at the top of my deck, but I spent too much time worrying about it. I was never the same after. I wish everyone would forget about the time that I.

I wish I could get closure on. I mean, to me, people right now, especially with people having more social anxiety and they're going out to parties or even going out on dates, I love the idea. It comes with this great, like bringing out a date, like saying, hey, I have a fun game we can play. Lots of people have done it. It's a wonderful first first evening and it's a wonderful with the evenings together, a phone number I need to delete.

I love that. A friendship I should end a promise I have broken an apology. I owe. The hardest thing for me is a story that's being told about me that isn't true but I've never bothered correcting. The part of me that doesn't want to become like my parents. Right. These are the things that, also, how great to find these out.

What I love about this game is that it's a tool that you could use to find out a lot of the answers that we don't often have these conversations with our partners. Let me marry them or with them forever. We're like, I wish I knew about these things. So that's right. You're getting to know them, but it's also just a way to connect deeper. So in many ways it can be used for couples who've just gotten into the routine and they're not talking anymore.

Like I never knew that about you or when you're getting to know someone new. It takes couples out of the routine of the way that they typically talk about things too. It elicits curiosity. When you play, you're part in structure and part in improvisation, and it lets you take risks in places that you don't typically go. It really takes people out of stockness when they are in the kind of rut of routine. For the people who are new, it gives a framework as to, it gives permission.

Playing gives permission. And playing is very healing, by the way, too. So I have always done play as part of my therapeutic work. And then I thought, okay, I want to create that playful experience. You know, it doesn't arc in the way, you know, you've talked about the books and the game and so is where should we begin, you know,

the podcast where you actually hear me work with couples where there has been infidelity or couples who have sexual stalemates. That's not all of it, but that's if you want that very focus. And what I really see as an essential part of my work is helping people to have the conversations that they want to have that they don't know how to start and becoming more confident to have these conversations and to see this as a direct link to opening things

to get them to be better. Everybody wants to feel more confident and have better relationships and better sex. And all of these different ways that I do it are really for that same goal. I hear so many people who have tolerated such bad situations internally or with others over years where they never brought anything up and I'm just thinking, oh my God. We got a lot of questions from Instagram and I just want to answer one. Okay. How do you love when your anxiety gets in the way and makes you fear the worst?

Yes. So the worst means I'm going to lose you. I'm going to lose you because you're going to get sick. I'm going to lose you because you're going to die. I'm going to lose you because you're going to reject me. I'm going to lose you because you're going to betray me. Is that what we are talking about? That when I get attached, I immediately experience the fear of loss at the same time, which by the way, I think

is part of love. Love comes with the fear of loss for everybody, but not everybody lives it on a daily basis all the time. So it's an issue of degree. It's not an issue of the fact that you experience that anxiety. That anxiety comes with, as I get close, I also am aware of what it would be not to have it. Everybody who's had a child understands that viscerally as well, if you want to look at it outside of romantic. A lot of it is two parts. The part that you do with yourself and how you

reassure yourself and how you ground yourself in reality and how you say that is a fear that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I have had experiences like that. That doesn't mean this is what's going to happen now. My past is my past. My past is not my current reality all the time. And the second part is with the partner and they go back and forth. It's not an either or or a first and second. What can we do to build trust in our relationships? Trust is an active engagement with the unknown, said Rachel Boat-Potsman.

It's a leap of faith. If you need to know, you don't trust. So I trust the unknown. I trust that you will be there to the best ability that you can be there, but I also know that you could one day not be here because something could happen. How do you reassure me? How do you make me feel that you want to be here, that it's a choice, and that you affirm that choice all the time?

And so do I. So we deal with our anxieties around loss, rejection, feeling unworthy or unlovable, or feeling that every time we have loved, something terrible happens, and this is bound to happen again, by grounding ourselves. You put your feet literally on the ground, your hands on your knees, you tuck the bony handles, you press on them so

that you feel the contact of everything, your body parts with each other and the body with the ground, and then you talk to yourself and then you listen to yourself and then you talk to your partner and you hear what your partner tells you. That's just the beginning of how you do it. You do it with songs, with poetry, with gestures, with touch. You know, a hand here is extremely important. A hand here is extremely important, and a hand on the knee is extremely important for that anxiety. It deepens the breath, and as it deepens the breath, it alleviates the anxiety, it reduces the fear.

So it's touch and talking and reassuring ourselves. That's really, thank you so much, Esther. Okay, so we have five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. Okay. We're going to ask you really quickly. What is your biggest turn on? I'm a total sapiosexual. You know, brilliance, wit, agility with words. The mind. The mind is my biggest turn on. What's your biggest turn off?

Laziness, complacency, neglect, lack of groom, lack of hygiene. Kind of a notion that you live and you don't see how other people see you. What makes good sex? Rhythm and melody. Rhythm and melody. Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships. If it doesn't feel right, don't just stay there and take it. I did a lot of that. As a lot of women and a lot of young people have done.

Yes. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? I would love to hear what you would answer on that one too. The first thing I would want people to know about sex is that you don't need to do sex to experience sex. That's great. I love it. Thank you, Esther, for being here.

Esther Perel, where can people find you right now? I hope the game is back in stock and people can buy it. People can pre-order it. It will be back in a few weeks. We sold out so fast. But you go to my website, it is the gate to it all. For the professionals, for the general public, by online courses, for the podcasts, as you can go to Spotify or anywhere where you listen to the podcasts. I would hope one day we get to play together. What would be your number one?

I would love to see you in person. I said, really, it would be such a joy. The number one thing I wish everyone knew about sex, communication is lubrication. Talk about sex and understand your beliefs around sex. Beautiful. And I would also say go slow. That would be another one. That would be another one. Sex tip is to go five times slower. Just like slow it down. We rush through sex. But if you're actually slow, then you can feel. I once did a session with 200 men and that was the final sentence. You know, when they said, what does she want? What, you know, and it was a she in that instance.

It was a hetero question. And I just said, slow down. Yeah. Go five times slower. Really, right? Cause it's always rushing to the orgasm. It's not about orgasm. It's about the experience.

So, oh Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Bye bye. Yeah. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe,

and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, and X, it's all at Sex with Emily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at SexWithEmily.com for free guides, articles and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex, dating or relationships? Call my hotline 559-TALK-SEX, that's