Sex With Emily - Your Guide to Having "the Talk" with Dr. Lanae St. John

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

On today’s show, Dr. Emily is joined by Dr. Lanae St. John – a sex educator & intimacy coach – to talk about her new book READ ME: The Parental Primer on “The Talk” – to help all of you parents out there have the right terminology and knowledge to talk to your kids about sex, intimacy, and relationships.They discuss the 5 Building Blocks of Healthy Sexuality and how to properly talk about all five – especially when your kids are at different ages – in ways they can understand. This show give you all the tools and knowledge to be the best parent you can be when it comes to relationships and sex. Especially in a time like this, where the whole family may be staying home more – it might be a good time to start some of these conversations.Follow Emily on all social @sexwithemilyFor more on Dr. Lanae, visit https://www.themamasutra.net/For even more sex advice, tips & tricks, visit http://sexwithemily.com/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We can't get mad at our kids if they problem-solve, right? The problem they're trying to solve is learning about sex. And if no one's telling them they're gonna use, they're gonna Google, they're gonna use the best resources they have. And we kind of can't get mad at them for doing what we would expect them to do if they were to solve a problem. The thing that's important also to tell your kids, if you're not gonna talk about sex, at the very least you have to tell them

that everything else that they do see out there is someone else's fantasy. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and today's show I'm joined by Dr. Lene St. John, a sex educator at Intimus Kyo to talk about her new book Read Me, the parental primer on The Talk. To help all your parents out there have the right terminology and knowledge to talk to your kids about sex, intimacy, and relationships. Hey, especially in time like this, where the whole family may be staying a home more,

it's a good time to start some of these conversations. So topics include, what are the five building blocks of healthy sexuality and how do you properly talk about them? You've got kids of all different ages, so what info is age appropriate and how do I get them to understand? Maybe you want to be open with your kids,

but you're worried about what if it gets back to other parents? Ways to deal with that, and tools and knowledge to be the best parent you can be in regards to sex and relationships. All this and more, thanks for listening. Who is Ise? They're the Ise of a man obsessed by sex. Ise that mock our secret institutions. Betrub Ise, they call them in a fight on me. Hey, Evelyn, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man E here, he just got his heart broken, he thinks you're kind of cute. The girls got a hair stand. Oh my! The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common, but only? What do you mean, like laundry? It's shrink? Can we not talk about sex so much?

Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'm off here. So, I'm going. Being bad feels pretty good. But you know Emily's not the kind of girl you just play with. You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships, and everything in between.

For more information, check out sexwithemily.com. We are a sex with Emily on all social media across the board. And that's an important thing to note now because during this pandemic, you guys, I know it's a really tough time, everything happening in the world right now. And I am here for you. We're gonna be doing our same three podcasts a week,

as well as upping our live content on all platforms. Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, it's Sex with Emily. I wanna be answering your questions about what to do in your crisis and confinement. How do we deal with connection and intimacy and communication? We have time now to deal with it, maybe more than ever, and we really need to. So I am here for you. The doctor is in.

I got you. And so just stay in touch. All right, in Tentions with Emily, each show, let's send in tension, and I'm doing it. I encourage you to do the same. So maybe it's like, I really want my kids to grow up without shame and proper knowledge around their bodies and pleasure, or maybe it's like, God, my kids are home now all the time, they're asking a lot of questions, how do I answer them? Well, my intention is to give you all great guide to raising sex positive informed shame free kids and teens, especially at a time where we really,

we all wanna be healthy and happy and mentally and physically. All right, enjoy the show. I'm so excited to welcome my guest, Dr. Lene St. John. She's a board certified sexologist. She's a dear friend. We actually went to grad school together. We started over 10 years ago.

We're just reminiscing. And she's based in the Bay Area right now, intimacy, relationship coach. And since I've known you, you, Lenei St. John, have been so passionate about educating children around sex. And when we first, so you have been working on this book, which is, I'm so excited it came out

because this is, I believe, to be like the Bible for parents. It's called Read Me, a parental primer for the talk. And it is a good, humid guide for parents preparing for the inevitable talk with their children about sex and sexuality. And you also started the Mama Sutra, which is your website, your Instagram, all the things, which were you into common sutra then? Is that what it was? Are you just like to sex?

Well, it was funny. It was kind of a play on words because the kids and I were trying to find some like Bay Area Derby girl roller derby style, like funny names for ourselves. And Mama Sutra was just sort of a play on come a sutra. So that's where you started. And you have two teenage daughters. Your book just came out last year, but it was nominated the book life prize for the indie armor publishers weekly. Congratulations on that.

And you can find everything we're talking about in our show notes at sexwithemily.com. And so Lynne, I just wanna say thank you for coming to the show for flying in today to do this, because I think we are at a point right now where I feel like I have my finger on the pulse of what people are needing right now, because I do the daily show on Sirius XM.

And people are just, my parents are calling it, and it's not just the people calling it. It's my friends with kids who are tenators now. And they all want to know, like, how do I talk to my kids about sex? And so when your book came out, I was like, thank God, now I can just say, get Lynne's book. But I would tell me,

I mean, you're doing, there's not a lot of resources for parents, so then I find myself on like 10 minute calls of people, 20 minutes with friends. Like, how did you figure out that you were gonna like write this book? Like, what did it happen? I've just, ever since I've known you, it's been a journey, I got early manuscripts.

Yeah, yeah, you got your early manuscript. So when we were at school together, it was that first, one of that first lectures in in our first semester um a woman came in and talked to us about sexuality and parenting and it was like I had this light bulb moment of Yeah, this is actually something that I want to help parents learn how to do and it's not so much about My work isn't about talking to kids, it's about helping parents talk to their kids because parents are the best resource.

It's when you typically ask college kids, for example, where do they wish they learned about sex? It always surprised me, the college class I used to teach, the kids would say, I wish my parents would talk to me. I wish my parents would have said something or they wish they would have been honest, right? So it was, that just sort of, the parents, because what I'm finding is the parents

don't even know what to, no one talked to the parents about it, which is literally us, we're the parents now. Now we're the parents, my parents and talk to me are, and my friends who are my age, are 40s, 30s, 40s, 50s, they literally don't, they're not comfortable with the subject. So you have had to impact so much now figuring out, well, how, because how do they teach

the kids if they didn't do their work themselves? Yeah, well, and that's really what this book is about. It's, there are a lot of things to do to unpack. There's a lot of unlearning, there's a lot of crazy messages, messages that aren't healthy, aren't helpful, that we got. And so, like, how do we not pass that on to our kids? And so, the book, I wrote, has this framework that I call the five building blocks to a healthy sexuality. And they don't have anything to do with penises of vaginas. Who does what? What goes where? It's just all about of vaginas, who does what, what goes where, is just all about helping people have healthy adult sexuality.

And so, the building blocks our communication, consent, respect, pleasure, and fantasy. And so, if you can take out needing to talk about who does what, or, you know, what kind of acts you're going to do, and start focusing on the things that are really the things that kind of get you to sex eventually, right? So yeah. So communication. So let's just say because I love it because you also started the book saying, okay, I get it.

You don't want to be the first parent that talks about it. You don't want to be like, because then every parent is so afraid. Well, if I tell my kid, then they're going to go to this playground and then I'm the bad mom. Yeah. So getting through all that guilt and and then I'm the bad mom. Yeah. So getting through all that guilt and shame themselves, the judgements. Yeah. There's so much to do with that.

But I don't want to be the one who was talking about low jobs or something. So what is the communication? Like, how does that look? So if I'm a parent, is it more like I have to talk to get comfortable myself? Well, yeah, that's a big piece of it. So what I think one of the examples I give in the book is even when the kids are infants, right? How do you begin to get comfortable talking about the parts of the body? And you can do that when you're cleaning them up, changing diapers, right?

You can say, no, I'm going to, now I'm going to wipe the urine from your labia, you know, and just practicing saying the words because, you know, it's no different than a nose or, you know, an elbow. It's just a word that for whatever reason has this guilt of this. Yeah, they might say not enough, but barely, right? Yeah. Or they, so they have labia getting specific. You could say, you could say, you could say, you could say, you know, you could name the parts, right?

I mean, there are plenty of adult women who don't really even know the parts. All day, all day, all day. They don't, so. Let's start with that. So you have a kid, a baby. And you know, that's the thing. We often don't use the real body parts.

So it starts there just saying like, vulva penis, so with a boy, if you have a boy, so you'd say like, I'm gonna wipe it off if you were shaft, too. Like what do you think? Really like, that just, I I mean it's a helpful penis I got poop is gonna get on their scrotum right like if they're in the diaper It's everything's

It's all whoops gonna be everywhere if you have a little baby and so you can just say I'm gonna you know You know cleaning off your penis. I'm cleaning off the scrotum You know like naming the parts as you're doing it and it's it's like exercising a muscle memory, right? Like you you say these words often enough. You're not going to get anxious or nervous about it. And study show that if you talk about the right parts and name them the proper names, heaven forbid something really terrible happened that the child is a survivor of unwanted sexual contact, they can actually name where they were touched or name the part that was. You're right, because right now they just down there.

They even said out loud. Yeah. I mean, just being able to say down there, like what, there's a whole lot down there, you know? Exactly. Was it your lead? Right. Okay.

So that makes so much sense. So then there are babies. And so that's kind of how you start a communication. And then they consent. Is that it? Like a certain age. You're like, okay, but this is your pride. You say you can say private parts. and so that's kind of how you start a communication and then they consent. Is that it? Like a certain age, you're like, okay, but this is your, you say private parts.

Well, I used to say private parts when my kids were really little. Totally. That was just a general area. Because that's scary too. You'd be so careful. So what do you say now? Just if someone touches you,

like the consent part of it. Well, so consent, I look at it, I try to look at it in a way that doesn't scare people to start because that's really, I mean, parents are scared. They don't want their kids to be assaulted. They don't want them to be, you know, put in uncomfortable situations, but parents do put their kids in uncomfortable situations all the time. I mean, I had an aha moment once when my kids were really, really little. When they're little, we like to play the tickle game, right? Like their little tiny little bodies, I mean, just tickle them.

But my, I was doing this once with my daughter, and I sort of had this flashback moment of myself being the one on the ground face up, somebody much bigger than me, towering over me and feeling helpless. And I had this moment of like, cush, and I paused and I stopped myself. And I said, honey, if we're ever doing this and you want me to stop, you just tell me to stop and I'll stop.

And so I was like, okay, well, let's try this. We kind of roleplay this. And so I went to tickling her, I tickled, tickled, tickled, and she was like, okay, well, let's let's try this, you know, kind of roleplay this. And so I went to tickling her, I tickle tickle tickle and she's like, oh, you could see her anxiety or not the anxiety, but like that excitement, like, I'm going to pee if we keep doing that. And so she said, stop. And I literally just froze. No expression, no change of expression on my face. There was no, oh, you know, pounding that we're not going to continue this or any of that. Just froze. And I watched her eyes look at my entire face and like track that there was no negative response, no micro aggression, no nothing. And she looked at

me and then she got the smiley little face and she said, go. And so we started it up again. And so it's like she then got to practice using her voice. She got to see that she had, you know, she had some say about what was going to happen. And I mean, it's had an impact on her. It's such a moment. Yeah, because kids are looking at your facial expressions. Is there feedback? Is there, you know, we interpret things as anger, especially if you grow up in a home or emotion, things are comfortable you have no say that's so that's so I did too That's so wise. It's really such a smart thing and then you started there I mean I met him when they were little I was

Remember missing that they were probably six or seven if they're 16 and 17 now that we were I was in Marin County and I was hiking and I ran into on the trail and my Nases were about the same age at that time. We're visiting from Michigan. And I was like, because even think about this, it was like a left 10 years ago. When it was now sexes, maybe there's more people doing what we're doing. And it's, but then you were just like,

I'm the Mama Sutra. And yes, these are my girls. And I talked to them, they're vagina's a masturbation. And I think that it was like my brother, maybe, or my sister-in-law. Their heads were like, these are my, you can't talk about sex, and they always say, how's your mom a sutra friend?

But I love that, you've done that because why does you are really been the one like taking the shame out of it? Why should we set our kids up for failure, let's set them up for success in that way? And it's just so brave. And it's also, it's important to do this stuff when it's low stakes, right?

Like when they're young, and they, you know, they can't develop into this healthy sexuality, right? Like it's super important. Okay, so then that's where it starts with that. And then how does it move through? Because your kids are really, I mean, what I love about the book is that you are including

like it's casual, like you have your blogs in here because you have been living the work. Like now your girls have grown up with this. So there's just so much more. I mean, I even love the first part where you're talking about when they find your vibrator when they're little and you're brushing your teeth. That was actually the very first moment

of being vulnerable with them and everything. And so the story with this is my oldest, I was in the bathroom brushing my teeth and I'd left a little tiny bullet vibrating, you know, the kind that looks like a lipstick, I left it on the counter. And I could hear her cut like bouncing, skipping into the great. I put it in the drawer and I close the drawer, continue brushing my teeth and she

comes in to get a hairbrush and of course she opens the drawer that I just put it in and so it's like brushing my teeth with my eyes are like as big as saucers and she's like, Mom, what's this? And I said it's a a vibrator put it away and she's like, no, what does it do? And she's playing with it and fuzzing with it and didn't have an on off. It was just like a twist and she twisted it on. And I was like, it's for your private parts

and she's like, on her face, on her eyes. All across her, up across her eyebrows, forehead and down her nose. And you know, we were talking about, she said, it tickles. I said, well, imagine what it feels like on your private parts.

She turned it off, put it in the drawer, close the drawer and just bounced out of the room. I was like, I was like, ah, I got it. Dodge a bullet or like what? You were just like, yeah, it was, it was, I know, I think in that moment,

she realized that I was gonna be on with Suther. I got a minute to tell her that you're true. How do you shoot that point like seven? I wanna say she was six or seven, okay? Yeah, it was like, it was right when we went back to school. Right back to school, okay. Yeah, so she would have been seven.

And so, so yeah, it was just this moment and it was a nothing moment for her. It was really a nothing moment. Like she did not, I don't even know if she remembers it actually. Right, probably not, but for me it was like, you know, I scared senseless practically. Oh my God, it was honest. And the funny thing is when I tell women they're like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, okay, I don't think I would have had a hard time blah, blah, blah.

But usually men get like really, like, oh my God, you talked to your daughter about that. Right. How do you get worse? Of course we do. Well, who else is going to? If not me, I always say it's a you or you tube. You or you porn for the parents, you can take that.

But it's true, like it's like, you have to do it, but parents are not well equipped. That's why this book is so great. Because it's not even like, it's not even like it's not even like people always want to know Well from age six to 10 tell them this and I've even been like well, maybe you should yeah 10 to 14 But every kid's different every kid's different and find your vibrator something happens earlier than you talk about you don't lie Yeah, so the book also takes approach. Yeah, it is not an ages and stages thing because it is it's exactly what you said there's to be something

that happens and brings the topic up and you're going to have to deal with it, right? There. It's less ages and stages. I think of it more like zooming out like a 30,000-foot view. What's the goal here? The goal is to have a healthy sexuality, right? We want people to develop and be happy and healthy and satisfied and, you know. But let's talk about the difference between sex and sexuality. Yeah. Talk to your kids about that. Yeah. And yourself about that.

Yeah. I mean, there's so much as it relates to sexuality, right? I mean, I have to laugh about this. And I don't know if it was the same for you. Like, I entered sex school thinking I knew everything, right? Like, oh, yeah, I got this. I to laugh about this. And I don't know if it was the same for you. Like, I entered sex school thinking I knew everything. Right? Like, oh yeah, I got this. I know what this is.

I didn't really know. I never think I knew it. I mean, I'm always like beginner's mind. And like, oh, there's so much more to learn. Yeah. That's amazing. I was like, okay, sex. Like, I know this.

But like, stupid. I mean, it was just, it was a very immature way of thinking in my mind because there was just, it was a, it was a very immature way of thinking in my mind because there was just, there was so much more. And I laugh because I am constantly learning as well. So I've gone back to beginner mind. I've developed. That's yeah. No, I'm always learning. I feel like there's so much more to unpack in the more that we grow and learn than there's more layers. And I realize that that's life. I've always thought that once I get through this phase that everything's going to be easier, whatever. And, then there's more layers. And I realize that that's life. I've always thought that once I get through this phase

that everything's gonna be easier, whatever. And no, there's always more to unpack, more to unpack. And sex is the same thing. It's like health. It's literally a topic like health, sex, cooking, you know, working, you know, whatever. It's like sex. So yeah, I am always like, okay, I mean,

and also you don't remember everything. And it hits you a different time. So I'm always getting re-inspired for your girl. So now I love that they're like now 16, 17, but mean, I, and also you don't remember everything and it hits you a different time. So I'm always getting reinspired for your girl. So now I love that they're like now 16, 17, but through this journey, like let me give you some example of things that come in like a parent or a friend, we're like, okay, so I just found out that my son is masturbating and watching porn. What do I do? And maybe their son is 13.

Okay. So first of all, the big question is how much have you talked to your kid about sex? Nothing, never mind at all. My dad didn't talk to me about sex, so I'm not talking to him or on the mom. No, nothing. Yeah, so it's a question of where do you want your kids to learn about sex? And you said it's either you or you porn or you two or you two. It is honestly that.

And so we can't get mad at our kids if they problem solve, right? And the problem is, the problem they're trying to solve is learning about sex. And if no one's telling them they're going to use, they're going to Google, they're going to use the best resources they have. And we kind of can't get mad at them for doing what we would expect them to do if they were to solve a problem. So the thing that's important also to tell your kids if you're going to talk, if you're not going to talk about sex, at the very least you have to tell them that everything else

that they do see out there is someone else's fantasy and it's not necessarily real. It's not necessarily how it works. So what they're seeing on the internet porn, all that is not real. That's not right. It's not. No, I said that too. I'm like it's there for your entertainment. One person decided this was hot. Other people agreed that. It's not. No, I said that too. It's there for your entertainment. One person decided this was hot. Other people agreed that it might not be your fantasy, but then that's all they see with sex and then the kids are thinking that's actually how it goes down.

Yeah. So you tell them it's just not real. Yeah, I mean, it also depends on where they're going. Like if they go to a good site, like Cindy Gallup, I almost forgot her name. Cindy Gallup's more. Cindy Gallup's more. Yeah, let's talk about, yeah, okay,

so that's a good resource. I don't know if they can access that without the, that's got to pay wall though, I think. I don't know, that's the problem. This is how your book is so good. I'm talking to the Lynne, Dr. Lynne, St. John, read me a parental primer for the talk, getting cooed so multi-layered.

So the parents have never even talked about it. So they just kind of say, it's okay, keep it in your, like it's not real. And here's some, do you think that they should give them like wipes or looms or clean up? Well, I mean, the things you should talk about are a height, it's a hygiene issue, right? Like make sure that, you know, give them some good,

I mean, give them some good loob or give them some, like, because they could chave if they're using or shampoo. Or shampoo. Yeah. I mean, it can appear as a shampoo bar. Yeah. It depends on what they're using, right? Like, sometimes it's not always the greatest, but if you know they're masturbating, you can

give them some of the good stuff. Yeah. Find stuff that's body safe and not necessarily got all kinds of stuff that's not so great in it, you know, it feels weird to say that out loud, but yeah, I mean, it's a it's it's sexual health, right? One of the when I was teaching the college students at CCSF we used to talk about one of the assignments I gave them as as a choice was to do a genital self-exam and

You know, I had one student she was in her, it was a student in the working adult degree program. So she was advanced years and she was going back to get her degree finally and she had adult kids and and she told me that she had this this genital self-exam assignment that she just she put it off. But I didn't want to do it. She finally did it and she was like, you know, learning about her body and learning, you know, to name the part she called it. She said like, one year. She was like 60. Okay. Oh, 60.

Yeah. Okay. And she was, you know, doing this for the first time. And she came back and she relayed the story and she said, you know, it surprised me how I let other people tell me what I look like all these years. And I finally got a chance to take a look. And, you know, by the end of that, you know, I lock my bedroom door, I lock my bathroom door. No kids are going to come in. And I, you know, finally sat down and do this, this genital self-examination. And she's like, by the end of it, I had my underwear and I was like, what? Women up on my head. And, you know, somebody who is 60, this is important information about your body, regardless

of how old you are. And, you know, if you teach your kids to know what they, you know, how they feel, but it looks like it's not a sexual thing to take care of your sexual health. Let's talk about how you do this with your girls, because I think that is so, it's like, how do you teach them about pleasure and about consent and about their bodies and orgasm, because my next thing was like, people often say, should I get my daughter a vibrator? You know, my daughter's 16, I get her a vibrator, but they've never talked about sex before. Yeah, so how do you feel?

And you've been unpacking it, right. And you've been unpacking it. Right. And you've been unpacking this with your kids since they were young. So, I can't wait to hear how you have handled this. Yeah, I'm wondering how much age or what did you... So, I mean, I think it's been different for me because I talk about this stuff with them and also because I get toys sent to me, right? So, I've had stacks of toys,

and eventually my daughter asked me about one. And so when she was curious, I allowed it. I mean, you said this is a toy that I eat, mommy uses to please my son. I didn't even need to say that because by that point, she'd, because it was only, gosh, it was only in the last couple of years. So we'd already had a huge foundation.

So talking about that foundation, did you have them? Like did you sit with them while they did a bit like an exam of their genitals? Did you look, no, you never did that? Nope, but they just, I just, I've explained things and I've let them do what they're going to do because it's almost like you don't need to encourage it. You just need to acknowledge it. So when did you talk about, how did you talk to them about masturbation and pleasure? And I'm sure for you, it's almost like you don't need to encourage it. You just need to acknowledge it.

So when did you talk about how did you talk to them about masturbation and pleasure? And I'm sure for you, it's like, like I always say it's like explaining water to a fish because it's like air. Like you like, how did I not? Like it was everything. It was like, did you brush your teeth? Did you do the laundry? Have you, like here's how you, you know, I don't know, I probably was, but in a way that

people can understand how do they address masturbation. They'reation, because everyone's starting somewhere else with their kids too. So, I think this is where also, and I'm speaking from my experience, just kids touching themselves is not masturbation, but it's not masturbation to orgasm, right? Like that's, I think adults get in their heads that that's what they're intending to do when they're like little toddlers, right? Like no, they're just literally touching because it feels good, right? It feels amazing to touch your parts, right?

Whatever part you're gonna touch. And so it was a conversation that I just told them, just make sure your hands are clean. Yep. You know, don't do it in public. Don't let anyone else do it. You know, it's the consent part too. Don't allow anyone else to,

because it's part of the model too. And you also have the plix of model. And then the five pillars that people should talk about is that what that is. But so yeah, consent, don't let anyone else touch. Yeah, I mean, mostly I made it about a autonomy of your own body. This is your body. You have access to it. Nobody really should tell you what you should or shouldn't do with your body.

And so yeah, I mean, it was... But if they asked you questions about... Or even just any pair, like I just say, yeah, it mean, it was, it was, but do they ask you questions about, or even just any pair, like I just say, yeah, it's important to know your body, what feels good, because you know, as you know that most of sex is about giving it away and giving it up a male pleasure. And I find that even with my friends, young kids,

my nieces, they still believe that it's about giving sex and not their own pleasure. So it's really teaching them pleasure. Yeah. Do you know if they've had, so this is, I know they might not why you talk about this, but yeah, this is where,

I mean, I know that in our conversations, I think I've made it more about me and my experiences and so that they could learn from that. It wasn't so much. I mean, really the only curveball question my daughter threw to me when she was young was how do you have sex and not get pregnant? And I was like, so that's a conversation about pleasure, right? Like, because a while's would you have sex?

So what would you say to that? Yeah, you'd say, well, well, the first time around, I talked about, what did I talk about? I think I just talked about masturbation, but then I was like, well, there are other things you can do that, you know, are going to allow you to have pleasure, but not get pregnant. And so, um, so yeah, it was, it was, it was like, you just tell it, you explained it, like, I think I gave her, I think I said mutual masturbation. I think that was the one example I gave her, but it was just like this moment of like, oh my God, she actually realizes that there's something more than just babies. Yeah.

And because that's all they're told. The birds and the bees, it's one talk, the storm's coming. We're going to get pregnant. Don't do that. It's fear. Yeah. Fear, shame, embarrassment. We're going to take a quick break and we come back even more

with Dr. Lene St. John. I'd like to think you talk about in your book too, about renaming a losing of virginity as a sexual debut. So how does that make different? That's such a great way it's branding. Yeah. It's totally brandy.

I mean, I'm preaching the choir on this whole virginity, like social construct, total bullshit. I mean, think about virginity tests. Like, what do they do to test virginity, right? And who's the person doing the test? Right? Like, what do they do to test virginity, right? Like, and who's the person doing the test, right? Like, just annoying. You can't even tell, anyway, it's inaccurate, but never do it anyway.

It's terrible. So you've got this very patriarchal, very heterocentric model that tells you that women have to like keep this thing, like, you know. Safe for the one. Yeah. So in taking the concept of virginity and moving it into an ideal of like a sexual debut, you can have multiple sex, as multiple debuts, right? You could, I like every time I have sex, I'm having a debut, right?

It could be your first kiss, it could be your first orgasm, it could be your first threesome, right? Like there's a lot of potential sexual debuts and they don't have anything to do necessarily with, you know, the penis going into a vagina, right? Like it's a very specific definition. And so kids who are survivors of unwanted sexual contact may not have been able to, right? Like to say when they lost their this concept of virginity, it sort of disempowers them. It also is very limiting for kids who are not oriented to heterosexual interactions, right?

And so it's super limiting. And so I think if you look at it in terms of like the sexual debut, it becomes this, it can be a much more beautiful, you know, you can celebrate lots of things. Exactly. So the building blocks going back to that. So we talk about communication, consent, respect. So it's about like, and also teaching young men and women about respecting each other. And GG, like the game. And, yeah, how about like teaching boys about respect? Yeah. Women.

It's respect just in general, right? Because I think we have, I don't like to call it rape culture, but it is, yes, but I call it more a culture of disrespect. And so, you know, for boys, it's tough because they're very limited. The culture limits them to what, like, three or four emotions that they're allowed to have. They can be excited, they're passionate about their team, their sports. They can express a desire to want to have sex. They can be angry.

What else do they got? Like, they're angry. They're else do they got? Like they're anger. Sad joy, they could have joy, anger, fever, tear, sadness. And then I think what one is like sexual attraction. Was it sexual attraction? Do you remember yesterday? And you wrote sexual attraction. Yeah. And I was reading a book that said that there's five. And it said we never talk about sexual

attraction. Because sexual, I was thinking sexual energy, sexual attraction in the moment. Yeah. That's a big one that we just lob off. What if I'm aroused? Where do I put that? Is that joy? Yeah.

Maybe, you know, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, so boys are hugely limit. I mean, we don't do them any favors when we limit their expression. And so, I think, respect. I mean, they can, they learn to respect

others by the models that they have too. And so if the models they have are limited to, you know, five choices, you know, I don't think it's not fair to them. So okay, let's talk about then. You said about the rape. Like you talk about as being a spectrum that it's not binary. So how do we make those distinctions? Which piece about rape? Being on a spectrum, it's white. We don't even have to go rape fantasy or sexual assault. Like the new dialogue runs I know.

Right. The dialogue around sexual assault and rape and what is rape? You know, it does not use it as a... You know? Yeah, I mean, when you talk about fantasy, for example, I mean, it's a fact that women fantasize about rape. But when you look at it for facts, yeah. Yeah, but if you, if you look at it in terms of how it will actually be acted out, like they don't often want it to be somebody they don't know under,

I mean, it's, so there's the rest, right? Right. Weapons or whatever the case may be, that's, that can be horribly dramatic. But so at least in terms of fantasy, you have, where do I want to go with this? Yeah. Just more like fantasy about, but I guess it's more about explaining that and also not shaming people if they have a fantasy

around that, but that's what happens to society gets perpetuated, that's what she wanted it, she asked for it. But I think the thing about the fantasy is that I think for women and it's so hard now with the gender, but saying like we do, we want to be taken and cherished in love and being accepted. So that feels really good. It's exciting.

Keep it interesting, but we don't want to be raped. Yeah. I mean, the other thing too is, fantasies don't always have to be acted out. Right? Like you can have a fantasy. The one that always pops into my head is, I think it's called formica filia. That's the one when you have ants. Or you have bugs crawling all over you and nibbling on your genitals.

Like, you could never realistically act that out because you can't direct bugs for one right? Exactly. In Hollywood. I don't know anybody that can direct bugs. But if you let loose a swarm, know, a swarm, I don't even would a bunch of cockroaches, like, you just have an infestation, you wouldn't have the fantasy of like having them

nibble. Right. It's really just weird. Yeah. So fantasy isn't always something that can be acted out in reality. fantasy was something to talk about that that I learned. I guess I never thought that if we had something wrong, but I've had to work on it. But it's such a, that was an interesting thing to learn that in school too. And over the years, how important fantasy is, because you always feel like it's shameful or it's wrong, or not every fantasy we want to act out, but how it's just plays such important part about being sexually healthy. And like all of this, what I like in a book

is that you are just giving people permission to like, it's okay that you don't know as parents. It's okay that you didn't learn. But let's change the game now. to like, it's okay that you don't know as parents. It's okay that you didn't learn, but let's change the game now. And like, let's teach you that it's acceptable because even if you had a fantasy, you crave something, we just automatically go to that's wrong. We were pressed that we shame it, you shame ourselves. We shame our parents.

We shame our partner for having a fantasy. Like the big one is the threesome, right? Like, do you rest on every day? Do you, people always ask you how do I have resum or how do I? Yeah. So I came up with a unique way. Tell me. Tell me all your things. I know everything. We haven't talked in a while. So I came up with an interesting way and it was sort of like I landed on it through experience as well. But you don't necessarily have to have a second part or a third person in the room. You could use a suction cup dildo.

I like. Yeah, I can't be away. So where is it sucking, suck, suck, suck, chaining too? The walled at stay? Anywhere. Fridge. The reason we, the kitchen, you can't agree. Right?

It could be the fridge, it could be the washing machine like any How do we not have to do so? I want to do that sucked. Okay, so you're right. That's a good one So it's like so you don't necessarily have to bring in a third because I mean there's all kinds of are talking about a role playing right I mean aside from the parenting piece talking about the adult sexuality piece You know the whole concept of bringing in a third can be really, really. It can be messy, right? Have you said that you've done this with your partner? Is it common?

Is it a practice that you guys do? Not this current partner, but in the past, yeah. In the past. Yeah, it's, I mean, this whole fantasy, the whole fantasy of having a threesome, like, people talk about it all the time, you probably get the question asked like five times a day. It doesn't, it's not always what it's cracked up to be. Like, I mean, there's a lot of communication that should happen.

At least in my experience, I've, I've had some really messy experiences where you know the person that I was interested in, we brought somebody else in and they then started communicating like it felt like disrespect to me. That happens all the time because we didn't say the boundaries ahead of time. Exactly. That's what I'm learning. You learn. You learn. You guys, we're always still learning. I'm still learning. That was, that was like, never done long time ago. And that was really awkward.

How do you think it's changed in the last 10 years now that you've been doing this? Like, what do you feel? Like, how has a landscape changed for better or for worse? So I think things generally have gotten better. There are a lot more people out here doing this, talking about sex. I think though this particular niche, this particular piece of the parenting piece, is like when I tell people that I wrote this book, I get a lot of the, oh, that's so important, but then nobody wants,

like it's like, you're doing it. I'm glad my friends, kids, call me. Yes. And so it's like you're doing it. Yes. I'm glad my friends kids call me Yes, and so it's it's like oh, it's so important, but for other people like I don't want to deal with this How do we break through them? What have you seen? And how do you get parents of attention? So this is this is urgent. It's not I think it is you can't literally we teach our kids and I'll let you answer that Sorry, yes, I think you're like you make take drivers' head and you take them out driving and then you finally maybe give them the keys to the car they get their license. But they had training and then they went off and they're like, well, I know they're

out driving my car now, but they are ready. But sex, we're like, don't do it. It's going to be bad. We don't get hurt, don't get an SED and then they have sex and then you're like, bye, you never talk about it again. And then you send them off into the world to figure out how to drive and make their own path. And it's not, we are doing this public because we didn't know. I mean, you're absolutely right.

I'm doing it like, right? I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. Yeah. So actually, the example you gave was perfect because, yeah, we do this driver's ed thing, right? We have them take courses, we have them get like the basics, and then eventually they're going to get the keys to the car. I mean, if you look at movies as an example and I think I'm,

I think I have this in my head because we're here in Hollywood, you don't learn how to drive from fast and the furious movies, right? Like you just don't, you don't necessarily learn how to cook from, you know, I think you're watching the cooking shows, but it's not like actually getting in there and doing it. And the same thing, like, you know, swimming lessons, right? Like, we don't just really throw people in the pool, because that's dangerous. But that's essentially what we're doing with sex. Like, we're just throwing people into the pool and saying, okay, swim. Yeah. So we're just trying to run. Exactly. So what do we do if we are so, and I guess they'd have to read the book or they have to just know that it's okay.

Well, I was just like, it's okay to tell your kids that this is uncomfortable for me. I have all the answers. I never learned it. So this is awkward. My mom didn't do it to me, but I really want to have a healthy conversation with you. But what I feel like, and then parents like,

few, I did that, and then they don't go back. You gotta keep circling back, because also, I remember what my mom said to me was, if you parents are like, few, I did that, and then they don't go back. You gotta keep circling back, because also, I remember what my mom said to me was, if you have any questions about sex, ask me. And I didn't know what the questions were. I didn't know, I started having sex. It wasn't until much later that I realized like,

I didn't still didn't know anything. I wasn't having orgasms through penetration, so I thought I was broken. I never masturbated, never been occurred to me to touch myself. And then I was like, in my my 20s and I was like, ask my friends in college and my listeners have heard this story, but I'm just like, oh, why? They're like, don't, I'm like, what is the deal with sex?

Why doesn't it doesn't feel great? And he's pounding away. I mean, I can't wait for me over. And this is my boyfriend of two years. I was like 21 and they're like, well, what about masturbation? And even it took me years to like, that's like, finally had an orgasm. But it's just like, I didn't know the question. So what if your kids me years to like, that's like finally I had an orgasm.

But it's just like, I didn't know the question. So what if your kids are like, mom, it's fine. I know whatever. Like how do you keep bringing it up and making it current and making it? So you say that also you share your own stories, but what else do we do? How do we make it more comfortable and get practice talking to our kids? Yeah, I mean, the book has a bunch of different examples of kind of how I've done that, but I think where we can step away from the fear of needing to talk about, you know, the acts and everything,

and talk about pleasure, for example. Pleasure is not just sexual pleasure, and I think that's something that adults in America particularly have a tough time with because we do think pleasure or pleasure or sex, you know. But reading a good book, right, like finding things that are pleasurable to you so that you can go to those things when you when you're anxious or when you're you know or when you break up, right, like you know the things that are pleasurable to you that you can go back to to get get back to who you are, right? Like you know the things that are pleasurable to you, that you can go back to get back to who you are, right? So it's not always about sex. So yeah, it's, the conversations around sexuality

for parents, I think very often we get bogged down in the sex. And there's just so much more to talk about that helps people with the sex piece. Let's see, I have a different way to approach this, I think. When we have difficulty talking to our kids, it's probably because we also have difficulty talking to our partners. And so if we can figure out ways to get comfortable talking to our partners, practice. Yeah, it's literally just like it is with wiping the diapers or like cleaning after diapers.

Like it's just practice. So let's talk about how you talk to your, if you've never talked to your partner. Because I tell this all day and you're an other sex educator, what do you say to people? I've never, okay, fine, we have a 16 year old daughter, but my husband and I have been together for 10 years and we've never talked about it. Well, the one that just popped in my head, actually, as you were saying that though, was the question about,

like, my wife doesn't want to have sex, but can I just masturbate next to her, right? Or the roles could be shifted. It's the, the husband doesn't want to have sex. It always should, yeah. But't want to have sex. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to masturbate. Is it okay to do it in the bed?

And so it's like, well, I guess it's, it's a question of, you know, what are you both comfortable with, right? Like it's not fair to say, I'm not going to have sex with you. I don't want to have sex. I mean, it's different if it's a manipulative thing, right? Like if you're like, oh, I just, I don't want to have sex with you, but it's like you're lording it over your partner. That's messed up and you should probably go to therapy. Couples therapy for that. But like if you just aren't feeling it, but your partner wants to

get some sexual sexual pleasure, like, negotiate it, like talk about it, like, you can you do it quietly while I sleep, or, you know, or maybe you do it before I climb into bed because sometimes people like to lay down and they masturbate. If it's not okay with their partner, let's explore that. Why is it not okay? Is it a shame thing? So is shame around masturbation? Or it means it's a replacement or something?

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I used to think that when I was... So did I. I thought all the things. That's as funny. Forget what you didn't think think it but I remember one of the things I learned too that was so surprising me Was that men that women wanted sex as much as men and I was like in my mid 30s when I started this I was like oh, I thought I thought that was true And then I was then I started like the staff and like oh no women want like you know because we're told women are frigid And men want sex all the time there's all these myths that was like, oh, that's not true. That's not true.

That's not true. That was out. Right? And we have such a, I think of what else we learned. It's so hard to remember, because it's been so long, but again, we learn those basics. But then you realize why it's such important the work that you're doing is that because you realize

that yes, it's changed, but every day there's somebody who doesn't know this who still believes that they're broken because they can't orgasm during intercourse or because they don't, you know, because they have fantasies or they don't want sex as often as they're partner. There's all the things that we just go right to, I'm broken, I'm wrong, because there's not a model out there of what's right. So which, what you were saying just reminded me there was a piece I wanted to add on to

that genital self-exam. I mean, think about how often you go to the doctor, right? Specifically, the OB-GYN, right? You go maybe once a year, and you're expecting your doctor to remember what you look like, right? There's been a year that's passed. How many other vaginas, you know, volatilates? Exactly.

Exactly. And like, so for you to be able to be empowered to know what your body looks like, so that you can notice any changes happen, you can go in promptly if you notice a change, right? Like men doing a scrotum check, they notice a little pea-shaped bump. You wait months for that, that bump is make it bigger, right? And you could have caught it when it was...

Because they're not taking pictures when you go into the gynecologist. Right, you're an urologist. Okay, so for women, how do you teach them to do it exactly? Like I now want to when it was. Because they're not taking pictures when you go into the gynecologist. Right. You're a urologist. Okay. So for women, how do you teach them to do it? Like I now want to take the work. How do you teach them to take a look? Like, you know, so I mean, I actually.

You've just seen school, right? I remember this. That was the first time I did it. Yeah, that was the first time I did it. Yeah, that was the first time I did it. We had to make pictures of our vaginas. Like they have like sparks. Like a dark sculpture.

It was a dark sculpture. They like all the supplies out. They like googly eyes and like the pipe cleaners and all the sparkles and like, make your vulva day. You know what I did? Somebody actually, I remember somebody carved a bar of soap. Yeah. I was like, I remember the things.

Yeah, I was like, oh god, I just slapped this together. I remember, I don't remember who did it. They used makeup. They specifically used the medium of makeup to shade and like the colors. I remember that. I was like, that was pretty creative. Exactly. But we had to look and I wasn't excited for that day to go home and be like, okay. No. But that's when you're like, oh!

So, so yeah, I mean, I have pictures too that I've taken just to like, for my, I like to throw my private private, but just so I can see how I'm looking, how it's going. Like, is it challenging? Have you done Betty Dodson's? No, have you? Yes. You did her masturbation circle? Yes, body sex. And was it a course or was it like a,

it was a course, it was a weekend course, it was a maize. It's a New York, right? It's basically the same thing that she just covered on, on Goop. Yeah. I did it in 16, I think, December of 16.

It was a maize. I've heard that and I was like, oh, I don't know if I need to do it, but I, December of 16. It was a maid. I've heard that. And I was like, oh, I don't know if I need to do it, but I, well, maybe she's in New York, right? I have chills talking about it. Like, tell me everything. It was so good. So, you get there.

And, Karlin, answer the door naked. Like, you are not wearing clothes the entire weekend. And it's just, you know, it's women. And there's this remarkable sisterhood that comes up right away. Like, I kid you not, I get to just talk about it again. It feels so normal. You're all like, you're staying there in place. I have a whole body chills right now. Like, it is, it is a weird sisterhood. I mean, not weird, like a bad thing, but like, fascinating, that's so promptly.

I am all goosebumps right now. How much you feel? It is like, you're amazing. I mean, Carlin and Betty have created the most remarkable space. And, you know, Betty just teaches her rocking method. So like, what is it? It's like two days.

I don't think you do the masturbation the first day. I think you do that the second day. It's like this group you're solo. You're not interacting with other people, but it's in the room and it's there's this remarkable like rolling orgasm that can happen too because you have, you know, a bunch of people who are masturbating and you can do that. Did that happen? Did you have to do orgasms? I did. I don't remember if I had multiple. I think I might have had this one or two, but there because you have a bunch of people who are masturbating and you can get their weapons. Did that happen? Did you have to do orgasms? I did. I don't remember if I had multiple. I think I might have had this one or two,

but there were people, there was one person who was... The role of my mom, my mom just saw it. She said, she said, do you know what I'm like, I do, because I've met her before, but I've been in the course. She's like, it's just like you, whatever I haven't watched it, but the point is the rolling orgasm is like a different,

is the method of... Well, no, that's the rocking. I think the rocking is a role of me. She causes a rocking. Well, what I meant by that is like, one person will have an orgasm is like a different, is the method of, well, no, that's the rocking. I think the rock is a rocking, because I'm rocking. Well, what I meant by that is like one person will have an orgasm. Then it's like a domino effect, better, better word. One person will happen than another person, another person. And it's, it's just this remarkable feeling. And then there's a part where it's, there's a vaginal or a vaginal, vulva show and

tell. And so you're literally, it's exactly like they did in the in Goop, where Betty's sitting near you and you're looking at your parts and she's sort of like helping you name the parts, right? So a general self-exam is the exact same thing. You just don't have Betty Dodson sitting next to you. So they were there. 12? I think about 12 people.

And it was December, so it was super cold in New York and she had the apartment up to 90 degrees. It was super comfortable. Do you guys sleep there? You just come in like no. 10 to 5 or something. It was like, not even longer. But it was full days. Yeah.

Now that I'm going to go, I see that's where I'm done. I'm going to Pamela's thing. I'm going to go, never done. I'm going to never done. Yeah. That is really cool. So you learn from me. Because women, then even after 10 years of doing this,

that was still, maybe then it was six, but it was still shift for you. Like, we're never done peeling back the layers. Like, you were still like, yeah. People I've never been with a bunch of women in a room naked. Like this. It sounds so bizarre, but I can't explain how natural it was. Did I do that at school, though? I didn't do it. I didn't get naked, though. Didn't we do that can't explain how natural it was.

Did I do that at school though? I didn't get naked though. Did we do that? Yeah, I think it was the mirror exercise. The mirror exercise, but I didn't, I remember I didn't do it. I don't remember if I got totally naked. I think I had underwear on too. I think I had a good one.

I think I had a good one. But we had to get up and we had to look in the mirror and say what we liked about our body, what we didn't like. I remember what we liked. We still liked. For sure. Yeah, it was for like, yeah. And, nothing naked. Yeah, because I wanted to stay. Yeah, it was for like, yeah, and nothing because I wanted to stay.

Yeah, they were. I was staying in the car because it wasn't didn't like. I like that exercise with my kids. Okay, I did that. Can you talk about that in the tell me about that? I did that.

I love that. You talk about that in the book. Tell me if it goes down. So it was when they were little. So it was, it was right after that. I came home and said, mom, mom, mom, you guys have to do homework. Why is it more of a cake?

And so, but I, you know, I tried to make it like really peppy and like, hey, let's do this thing and like not make it weird, right? Because it's not weird unless you make it weird. And so both girls had things that they really liked about their bodies. And your daughters are like six and seven at this time. Yeah, like, yeah like six and seven at this time? Yeah, like six and seven. And my oldest, you know, was always like, just very self-assured, very confident.

So she named her three things right away. You're like, hey, what do you love about your body? For some young girls, that is so powerful. I mean, what is it? Mean girls, they look at the things that they don't like. And it is a huge shift to look at your body and talk about the things you like, right? When do we do that?

Never. We just think what we don't like, I got to change it all this way, I got to change this, I got to change that. Yeah, and it's, I mean, that stuff is lifelong, right? Like, I've gone through some changes approaching Manopause here that like, you know, it's it's work that has to be done all the time. But if you are training your girls to say you're like, and I think I love the way you describe you're like, I like my like knees and my vulva and then your daughter's like, let me do it. It's like teaching girls to look in the mirror and be like, this is what I love about myself.

It's just it's training. Start with those muscles. Yeah, start with their young because they're going to have plenty of influences that tell them all the things that are wrong with them. Right? Like I still hear the shit that, you know, like in my own head, all the time. And, you know, my daughter's now will, so they talk about how they like my squish. So, my body squish. My body squish.

And they're just, they just, they love squeezing me. And I get really self-conscious about it because that's not okay. And I know they mean it in the most loving, adoring, mom, daughter way, but I still have all kinds of anxiety about it. And it's not been, it's only been in the last year actually, that I'm like even turning a corner around turning a corner around the whole self-acceptance thing. Because I hear messages that I heard growing up, words that were used for the type of clothing,

or just really not nice things. And so if I can, and my daughters are sort of really key in helping me unlearn this, because they're helping me, they don't understand, they honestly don't understand why I don't love the squish. It perplexes them, just like, and so their, their love is helping me adjust. That's so beautiful. So like, I taught them them and now they're teaching me. It's weird. It's so true. I see that. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're doing just a great job. Your your daughters are going to take over the world. Really. That's amazing. They're like, I don't get it. Like it's because yeah, very different than like the mean girls or that you know,

because you were such a conscious parent and you were so conscious and loving to really check yourself and to bring that into the home, right? I mean, to me, you know, no parents perfect and no one is perfect in their life, but just to be so conscious about, you know, not, you know, so many moms are like probably with their dog. I gotta lose weight. Our mom looks fat, or, you know, I mean, that's just, we just say that. I say to our friends, I'll say it for my daughter, then your daughter's here at fat. My mom used to diet all the time. My mom was always like, oh, I got to lose three pounds. And that comes out, you hear that? Like, you're just, well, that's my mom. That's a woman in my life.

The woman in common woman. Maybe it's better to be skinny. It's better to, you know, stuff is important. But you don't put weight on any of that. Yeah, not any. I mean, not anymore. And actually, I can see my body as more womanly now than I did.

You know, because I was always picturing my body to be what my kids, like current, like, I would look like a 17-year-old girl. Like a 17-year-old girl. You know, and it was making me, it was making me anxious. And the funny thing is I didn't have a sexy brown underwear pair, like a sexy, satchin' set, yeah, because I was avoiding my body. Yeah.

That's so true. We women, we forget it. It's even our jobs. Like you didn't have sexy underwear. I have got something over now. I took a little while from Bitty. My house, my house wife is what I call her. She's taking care of my out. She's like, you need new sheets. Like I didn't even see that, like, I mean, they were like not matching and like I had to build a pen and one of them. Like, it was like inkmar. Like yeah, that's gonna make me feel good if we don't see it on our own selves. So that made you go out and buy under,

because we look at makes, like when confidence is still the sexiest thing on the planet. Yeah, and the funny thing is like, it doesn't, I mean, yeah, it matters what I say about myself, but just putting on a brand new sexy pair of, you know, a set was like, like, oh, I just served this. This is amazing. Look at me.

Yeah. And I'm sure your partner was like, oh, it's different, it's new, you know? It's, I loved it. Like, that was, I was like, I forgot what word he used, but, yeah. It was sexy. It was, it was appreciation. I got this, maybe it wasn't even a word.

We're not saying it's effort too, because I think that when we don't, when we don't love ourselves and we forget to give ourselves that then how can we expect our partners to if we don't love ourselves. And that's a lesson I constantly am learning. Yeah. We never done learning. Thank you so much.

Okay. But everyone check out Dr. Lenei St. John's book. It's called Read Me a Parental Primer for the Talk. I have to ask you where to get back to give you all the cards. This is all in the show notes for your book. But I have to ask you the five're gonna get back to, give you all the cards, this is all the show notes for your book, but I have to ask you the five questions we ask all of our guests. Quicky questions. Okay.

Your biggest turn on. Leather. Biggest turn off. Lace. And the funny thing is I gave them those laces. So maybe it's changing. What makes good sex? Communication.

Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships. Something I would tell myself What I tell man, yourself It's not as bad the first time is not an indicator of what it's gonna be in the future So great. I would tell your tell your kids that right now number one sex tip. Everyone sex tip Okay, I have two actually can I do to tell your kids that right now. Number one sex tip. Number one sex tip. Okay, I have two actually. Can I do two? Yes, of course. Share some gratitude with your partner,

show some appreciation, because that there might be something that they're doing that you really like and you want to encourage that. So share some appreciation. And then try out that fantasy with the bringing in your senses, like count yourself and talk it through.

Yeah, work together to create whatever the scenario is. And you might find something really funny, but try that. I love it. That's great. Thank you, Lineshane. John, you can find you with the mom sutra on Instagram and Twitter and the mom sutra.net and your book, Read Me A Parental Primer for the Talk, this will be in our social media as well and our show notes.

Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. You guys, wherever you're listening now, it really helps if you look down at your app, SoundCloud, Google Play, Spotify, and just give us five star review. So appreciate it. Your comments, your questions, remember,

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