Shaun Newman Podcast - #100 - Ron MacLean

Episode Date: July 29, 2020

The one & only Ron MacLean from Hockey Night in Canada & Coach’s Corner. We discuss his early years, journey into broadcasting & Don Cherry.  Let me know what you think     Text me! 587-217-8500

Welcome to the podcast, folks, the 100th episode. A hundred. Can you believe that? It feels like yesterday I was in the basement of an old house on the outskirts of Lloyd recording the first one with Ken Rutherford. It's unbelievable. If you're along and you've been along since the beginning, you've grown with me as this podcast continues to evolve. If this is your first time, welcome.

Welcome to the podcast. You know, I can count on my hand right now. how many people know for sure 100% who this guest is. So why don't you just enjoy the anticipation for the next couple of minutes before we reveal who it is? I mean, how many times in life do you get the sensation of truly not knowing what's coming up? I mean, just around the corner. I argue not that often. So I want to go hold on here for the next couple of minutes while we, you know, we just massage this thing until we decide to tell you who it is.

I want to do some show notes right off the hop. You know, to all the people who've been listening, thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate all the feedback and comments you meant make to me. To anyone who's advertised or helped along the way, I appreciate that immensely. First off, Ken Rutherford for believing in my idea and helping me initially put this thing together. I mean, the guy just had a six kid, him and Jen. Seriously, we could all learn something from that family, that guy.

He's been just a great help along the way. Heath and Tracy McDonald, I pitched them my idea, and they've believed me pretty much since the first day one. And they've had a segment on here. Right at the end, you'll get to hear it again. And so thanks Heath and Tracy for hopping on this journey with me. Malcolm Ragke, here's a cool little story from back. Him and the Lloyd Miss Regional Health Foundation, he tracked me down at a noon hour skate, a Todd Kirkpatrick, noon hour skate, and asked about advertising on the podcast.

And truth be told, I wasn't looking to do it. any advertising it in the first year. I just kind of wanted to, you know, get my feet under me and see where this thing went. And Malcolm changed my mind on that and has allowed me to collaborate with him on many occasions. To my brother Harley, who listens religiously on every episode and gives me feedback whether I want to hear it or not. And, I mean, he just helps me stay honest and tries to make me give all of you the best of me and the best of a podcast experience and we continue to try and improve this thing day by day thanks harles and t bar one transport i mean them guys they hauled back a sign for me from emminton uh no charge so thanks

thanks boys uh i hd factory sports vik juba community theater these were some of my initial advertisers on the podcast i want to thank them for trust me you know and their respective companies get their message across it was cool to have people believe right from the beginning i got to mention Windsor Plywood, you know, builders of the podcast table. That's another guy, Carly Closson over there. He's helped with the backdrop of the podcast. He built me the podcast table, which has gotten a, you know, it's just a beautiful feature in the room.

You know, there's just been so many good people from the beginning, and I'm surrounded by them, and I just want to say thank you to you all. A couple other shoutouts go to, you know, we've been doing some online things here this week, week helping promote the 100th guest. Factory sports and Sandy Beach Golf Course gave away some things. You know, we've been doing little teasers at the end of some episodes leading up to Who's 100 here. Windsor Plywood, $100 gift card. If you head to social media, you might be able to get involved in that.

Maz Entertainment, a movie night. IHD. One entry into one of their training camps. You can find out more details on social media. And Silver Kings, Woodworking has donated a hangmaid cutting board. That's, of course, Lyndon Springer. He's a former podcast guest as well. So lots of cool people that have helped me along the way. Huge shoutouts to all of you, fine folks, and I hope the future brings lots of good things for you. Now on to today's sponsors, foremost.

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Let them know that you folks are listening. Now, if you're interested in advertising on the show, visit shaw-newmanpodcast.com in the top right corner of the site, hit the contact button and send me your information. We've got lots of different options. And I want to find something that can work for the book. Both of us. Now let's get on to this T-Barr 1 tail of the tape because I know you're all foaming at the mouth. Here we go. He calls Red Deer Alberta home. Initially he wanted to be a teacher, but his fate would have it. The radio industry came knocking. He inherited Dave Hodges' position in 1987 as host of Hockey Night in Canada. He worked alongside Don Cherry for 37 years with the coach's corner segment. He has won eight Gemini Awards for his work with the CBC.

He has a star in Canada's Walk of Fame. He has hosted multiple Olympic games for the CBC, and now you can find him on Sundays on hometown hockey or the host of Hockey Night in Canada. Have you figured it out yet? Hey, it's Ron McLean, Hockey Night in Canada and Rogers' hometown hockey, and welcome to the Sean Newman podcast.

Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by the iconic Ron McLean. So first off, thank you for joining me. Total pleasure, Sean. and glad to follow in Kelly Rudy's footsteps. It's kind of cool that you had Kelly on, who's a very dear friend, of course, and we're all going back to work,

although we're social distancing, not six feet. We're going to social distance from 3,000 kilometers because Kelly's going to start at home in Calgary and join us in the studios here in Toronto that way. Well, before we get into your story, Ron, I just want to give a couple of quick shoutouts. A, you're the 100th guest, so we're recording it a couple days early,

but you are my 100th, so it's a big achievement. for myself, really excited about it. I was really excited. I got two quick stories. Well, the shutout first is to, you know, Justin Mappletop. I don't know if that name rings a ball for you. And Frank, yeah, sure, of course. It's funny how the world works, but I interviewed him, you know, months and months and

months ago. And he led me to Colby Armstrong, and Colby Armstrong led me to Carly Agro. And Carly Agro led me to yourself. It's just funny how, you know, I didn't see, I didn't know how to get to you. And slowly it just kind of worked. and here we sit. So I just want to extend a real sense of gratitude to all those people for making this happen. This is a real dream come true of mine. I've watched you for a long time. And so I guess it's super cool how connecting with people has led me to you. And I'm sure you have

your own stories on that, but that part, super cool. And then the second part is when I found out about you coming on, I was coming back from an interview with Ryan Papuan. of the coach of the Brooks Bandits. And we were down visiting some friends in Bow Island, Alberta, which is just southwest of Medicine Hat. And when I found out about you, Ron, I pulled over, did about eight fist pumps, and I'm sure people thought it was a little bit crazy

on the side of the road. That's like when we were at the Olympics in 2002. One of the games was played in Provo, Utah. So the bulk of the games were in Salt Lake City, of course, but Canada played the German game over in Provo. And we were driving to Provo, which is, I don't know, an hour from Salt Lake. Lake City and grapes. I mean, you could spot him a mile away. He's like a grain elevator with those

callers, right? So people were all the Canadians who were going out to the game, would see Dawn in the passenger seat of my vehicle, and they were going ballistic and opening their windows and mooning us and doing whatever they could to celebrate. There goes the guys from the hockey broadcast. So I've been there. Well, once again, I mean, that's a long intro for you, but I do really appreciate you coming on. What we do here is I really want to. I really want to to hear about your journey. Everybody, you know, has watched you for years and years and years. And I'm always curious on hard work, the lessons, the everything that goes into, you know, becoming Ron McLean, the guy who's on Coach's Corner, host of Hockey Night in Canada for years

upon years. And everybody's, you know, just, you're the iconic guy. And I guess I just, I want to go right to the beginning, right back to the start. I know you're born in Germany, but I, I think there's a little bit more to the story there. Maybe we could just start with your parents and work our way. I think that's, you know, when I think about your, what you mentioned off the top of the three names that kind of got you to me, the six degrees of separation, Carly Agro's mom is an incredible human being.

And the twin sisters, you know, Carly obviously got her started, Lloyd. She's an incredible mentor and matriarch of that family. Frank Mapletoft, of course, I see often at the Calgary Stampede, and as I don't have to tell you, was a great friend of Byron McCriman and the great, you know, Border Kings teams in the 1960s. And I got to see, of course, a son play for the Red Deer Rebel. So that was kind of a cool kick.

And then Colby Armstrong's mom, figure skating instructor. So when Colby helped us on a show called Battle of the Blades, Rosemary was a brilliant figure skating instructor. And one of the reasons Colby knew to say, you know, we call that stroking rather than skating or striding, which is like kind of strange for a farm boy from Saskatoon and Lloyd Minster. right to know that, but that's because of his great mom. And you're right. My parents, I mean, honestly, Sean, I'll never figure out how I ended up on hockey net in Canada.

No ambition to get into broadcasting whatsoever. I wanted to be a teacher. I was an only child and I really revered mom and dad. I got to do adult conversation from the get-go, no siblings. So I was, you know, kind of at a higher level of conversation just because I had no brothers and sisters to yak with. I had friends, but a lot of the conversation became adult early in my life. So I think that accounts a little bit for, you know, the gift of the gab. Both were extremely conscientious. My father had a rough, you know, sort of story. He was adopted.

He was basically cast adrift as a child. His father's from Newfoundland. And he got involved with a maid in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and dad was produced. And then the guy disappeared and then the mother couldn't afford or was, you know, it was an illegitimate child, bad thing back in the day. So dad was in foster homes and kicked around until he was about 13, and yet he was a beautiful human being. Like he had such faith in life, and he was obviously a doting dad because he'd been through the ringer. So I was lucky on that side to have unconditional love from my father.

And my mom was as sharp as a pistol, but very, she went into the convent for two years, was studying to be a nun. Wasn't for her. But she was that kind of a person, like I really thought about others more than herself. She was the kind of person that people would speak to willingly. I used to be amazed at how people would sit at our kitchen table in Red Deer. And within minutes, their life's story is pouring into my mother's care. So I was just lucky.

She was a strict, super strict, you know, because I was a yakky kid. Being an only child, I was maybe spoiled. But they were great parents. Ron and Lila are their names. Both went into the military to escape kind of a poor upbringing in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. They suffered, mom suffered no fools gladly. Dad definitely suffered fools gladly. So I always thought I'm a lucky mix of my mom and dad in the sense that, you know,

as an example, working with a guy like grapes. My mom would kind of say, you know, got to rein him in and Ronnie. And my dad would say, oh, it's funny, you know. And they gave me a mix of resolve and great empathy and compassion. Do you ever talk to your father about his upbringing? That's pretty cool story to be kicked around. like that and to have an outlook in life such as that. Yeah, well, I think he just felt like it was pennies from heaven, everything that happened once he got to the military. So he got adopted by a family

called the McLean, so that's where he gets his name. His name is not really McLean. His father's name was Gail and the mother's name was Moulton. And ironically, the drummer for July talk is a pretty popular rock band right now. We're connected through the Moulton family. So I don't know my relatives or my background much. It's crazy twisted, typical, you know, a small all Cape Breton story. Anyway, Dad was adopted at 13, and they really because they needed a worker. He was there to pick apples in their orchard and to shuck crab. He hated seafood because he worked, you know, over in a plant and also worked in the

McLean family orchard. They were nice enough to him, but he tried to run away about 10 times. And it's almost like when I think of Sheldon Kennedy's story, you know, and the trauma that he went through. and then to see him now, you know, I likened to my dad's experience. Dad somehow came through hell and ended up being just the most, you know, once in a blue moon, he would have a streak of bitterness that I think connected to that crazy childhood. Like he might get mad at neighbors who didn't reciprocate if they had them over 10 times for

supper or something and they didn't, you know, there would be a moment where dad might. That's a human attribute. That's a human attribute. And it's a very, you know, that was the, but it was very rare in dad. Dad almost never snapped. He was endlessly joyous. I remember taking him to the hospital just before he died, and he was 93 years old. He went in for a routine biopsy to see if he had cancer and assist on his colon.

And because he was 93 and he was put under, he aspirated, they call it, swallowed his own spit. That happens. He had a little bit of dementia. But I just remember taking him to the hospital and the joyful stride in his step, you know, God knew that he would be gone six days later. So I have a really good memory of my father having that smile no matter the circumstance. And mom on the other hand, mom was a little bit prone to depression because she was so sharp. I just think she couldn't drink her travesty straight. She was a, you know, but not straight lace, she'd drink.

But she definitely chose to internalize all that ever bothered her. And oh, man, she was a deep human being. I was really blessed to have, you know, her. guidance on many, many situations and sometimes her worry. You know, I wore her worry because she said, oh, Ronnie, don't talk so much or don't talk to Mr. Betman that way. Anyway, it was a great, isn't that all mothers? That's all mothers. Yeah, she used to tell me, ironically, I can remember Sean when I was young in Red Deer. I was going over to West Park Elementary, had a rink, and I was going to just skate, and mom said, you know, Ronnie put on a helmet. She made me wear a mouth card when I was like

five or six. I was the only child, right? And so, Anyway, she was overprotective, no question. But ironically, that night, I wasn't there at the time, but a friend got hit by a puck going behind the net without a helmet on and died. What? Yeah, so I think my mom, you know, she never forgot that. She would warn me endlessly about the, you know, prospects of bad things. And that's a tough, you know, thing to do to your child in a way

because you can't suck the risk out of life. But God love her, you know, she had one. and it's a one-shot life, so I could understand. You know, going back to the beginning, I appreciate you sharing about your parents. I found that very fascinating, just the lives that they lived and the lessons they imparted on you and continued all the way throughout their life to do.

I find it interesting that you never had the dream of doing what you're doing. So that means, A, you're exceptional at it, And because I don't, my brain has a hard time linking that together, I guess. You just fell into it then? Is that what you're kind of saying? Oh, totally. I was in grade 10 sitting in the backyard. A buddy of mine at Camille J. LaRouche High School in Reddier, that was the Catholic

or separate school. A buddy of mine was working part-time. Actually, three of my friends were working part-time at a radio station in Reddier, just operating. They weren't doing any on-air commentating, but they were physically running the board. very minimal operating. It was a CBC repeater station, CKRD FM. So their job was at the top of the hour, CBC would say, we now pause for station identification. This is old time stuff for, you have to be old to know what this is about. But anyway, they would say time for station identification. And a kid in

small towns like Lloydminster and Red Deer, he would flip a bar and then press a cartridge, a button that would play a cartridge that would say this is CKRD, 99.9 megahertz in Red Deer, Alberta. And then he would flip the lever and rejoin the CBC network. That's all they did, once an hour for nine hours. And the friend who was doing that guy named Bernie Roth was ill. And he says, hey, Mr. Smith, the man who ran the station, Martin Smith, own Ron McLean, my buddy. He can figure that out. And I'm sure he'd appreciate the $3 an hour, 27 bucks. So that's how it started for me. I got the, I remember my dad coming to the backyard and saying, Ronnie, there's a Martin Smith from CKRD radio on the line. And I thought, oh God, am I in the news? You know, was I drink? too much last night what's happened. But anyway, it was just that. And then one thing led to another. There were four now of us kids from the Camille school working every second Sunday. I would work three to midnight.

And eventually they asked me to read the news at midnight on that station because they were shy of their Canadian quotient. And eventually they asked me to DJ over on their AM operation. They just saw in me, you know, I guess a bit of responsibility is what really they saw. They found someone dependable. And they gave me that gig, and it just kept on going through high school. And at the end of grade 12, they offered me the position as the eight to midnight disc, well, first midnights, but that only lasted like a month.

And then I flipped into eight to midnight, Tuesday through Friday. Then I would do noon to six Saturday, and then six in the morning to noon Sunday. It was crazy, you know, working around the clock for $600 a month and loving every minute. Except I will say, Sean, I had a lot of anxiety. Like I would hyperventilate sometimes when I was out on location doing advertising in a store and the DJ would throw out. Here's Ron McLean at Stereo Shop and I would panic. So I was fighting a little bit of the demons that way that I was just a scared kid who had no, you know, I always say this. I didn't have much of a competitive gene because of that only child upbringing.

Made me a lousy athlete. I didn't have to compete for anything in my house. So I also didn't really know how to defend myself in life. And when this started to happen, I thought, oh my God, you're the only one that's scared, you know. And now we know a lot more about mental health. But anyway, I survived it. I just kept on, you know, freezing and lots of terrible experiences on the air. But I wanted it so bad.

Yeah, I just wanted it so bad that I said, Ronnie, it's either you get through this next one. I'll never forget having a panic attack in one of the 60-second hits. And I remember the voice of the DJ back at the main station saying, Ron, are you there? Ron, are you there? and I couldn't talk. I was just hyperventilating. And so I now had about 15 minutes to gather myself for the next 60 second on the radio. And I just remember thinking, this is your career, bud.

You either get through this or you're going to have to admit that you're not cut out for this line of work. And it was an awful feeling. I was about 20 years old when that happened. And fructive I know how I got through it, but somehow I was able to cowboy up and get through that one. And then I, you know, I learned later, you know, ways of getting yourself out of yourself and deflecting the anxiety. But in the early going, it was it was totally a self-taught resolution. You know, going back to Bernie Roth, do you ever just look back and you probably see this all the time? Like, what happens if he doesn't get sick?

Yeah. I become a teacher. And, you know, one of the things should. on for me in my career is like I had a contract squabble back in 2002 that CBC let me go. And then of course, Strombo took over in 2014. And I was kind of, I wasn't let go per se, but I was kind of on the fourth line now. And, uh, I didn't care. I, you know, that, that, I think that was always kind of a, and maybe like my father with

his difficult upbringing and me with my anxiety issues, maybe once you've gotten through that, you know, the rest is gravy. You know, that now that's hell. When you're panic-stricken for no apparent reason, that is hell. But to not have a hockey night in Canada career, that wouldn't be hell. And to teach, which would be just a... And I, you know, obviously you and I do that in this line of work. That's kind of where I ended up in a funny way anyway.

So, yeah. But I do thank Bernie for two things. He also got me into refereeing hockey, which I did for 23 years. And Bernie died young. So there, you know, I always remember Leonard Cohen said that the great singer, Leonard Cohn, he took flamenco guitar lessons in Montreal. That's how he wrote the song, Hallelujah, his greatest hit was based on this guy teaching him some six chord progression.

But that guy died. I think the guy died of mental health that resulted in suicide. But that guy shaped Leonard Cohn, and he was just like in and out of his life in a heartbeat. And Bernie was not just in and out. Bernie and I went to school. our moms were dear friends, Kay Roth and my mom Lila. But he got me into refereeing.

He used to listen to the junior hockey broadcasts religiously. He used to try to imitate the play-by-play man of the Calgary Centennials of the Western Hockey League. And he was a great influence without us ever realizing that he was kind of shaping what I would do for the rest of my life all the time. Reffing and broadcasting, I totally owe to Bernie Roth. It's, I hate to get too deep. But, you know, I just, I think of that. that influence on your life. And I go back to when I interviewed Brian Burke and he talked about a snowstorm got him into hockey.

And it's just, it's funny. Every day will present a new opportunity to learn or to possibly change the way you're thinking or steer you this way, that way. And you just don't know where that leads. And I think it's pretty evident. You know, some people are Wayne Gretzky and they're skating by two years old and away they go or Connor McDavid for the newest generation. and that's spectacular in itself. But I find it mesmerizing when you hear stories like yourself where it wasn't a thought. And you know, to go to your reffing career, Ron, I find it interesting that you didn't use to submit mileage and that you didn't, you know, and for people who I guess aren't refs.

And I've never wrecked. But I understand that when you travel, you submit your mileage, you get paid for it and you carry on. So what was it about reffing that you just enjoyed it? Because I got to be honest, refing, or refs are probably a dying breed right now. Like that is not an enjoyable occupation for most. And yet you have high, high things about it. Here's another quirk in my life that I sit back and try to understand why it is this way. But, you know, when I was telling you about all the anxiety I suffered from the time I was 20

until the time I was 35. Now, Kelly Rudy may have touched on this. Anxiety is a huge issue. mental health, you know, in his family's situation. The daughters, especially one, has had tons of experience with anxiety. Anyway, I had a 15-year window in life where I suffered it. Never on the ice. Never once, no matter how big the game that I refereed, that I feel unglued or scared

or, you know, starting to feel that fight or flight. And I often wondered, is it because I was in motion? Does you know the skating that kind of gave me a little, for some reason, rest ofliminal relaxation. But I did find the refuge on the ice. You know, I found that everything that I wanted to be, the teacher, that I wanted to be, that I was struggling to do well.

I mean, I was on a hockey night in Canada, so I guess I wasn't struggling. But deep down, I felt like it's not going quite as smoothly or as easily as you would like it to. I'll never forget, Sean, I was in New Jersey doing a game, Stanley Cup playoff game. And we were getting ready for the anthem. And the security guard came over to me.

I don't know if I was pacing. or what, but the security guard at the burn arena in the Meadowlands, New Jersey. He came over and he says, you're really grinding tonight, aren't you? And you could just see my angst. You know, like I wasn't, this was not fun. You know, how, you know, people go out there, have a good time, be great, have fun. You know, never. I was like fricking wound like a clock.

But I knew that, so I would offset it with, you know, some mental self-talk. Anyway, the refereeing part gave me the luxury of going out. teaching. I love to communicate with the players. Hey, too, everybody in the building saw that was a hook. You're down to nothing. If I call that, they score on the power play. We can all go home. I need you. Your team needs you, you know, not to do that right now. So I'm going to let you go this time, but you can't make me look stupid. And that would work, you know, five out of six times. The sixth time, the guy would say, oh, go F yourself. Just make the F and call. I was probably the sixth time.

Yeah, yeah. And I love that. You know, that was one thing about, you know, in our house, again, back to mom. Mom did not like false modesty. She didn't like pretense. She didn't like, you know, composity. So she got a kick out of, you know, the pistols or the rebels in life. And so did I. They were my meat. I, obviously, Grapes was a rebel who was, you know, I was trying to harness for 34 years. I got away with it. And then we finally fell into a new reality and lost it. But so that was a big part of my upbringing was to admire the other, even if the other was a little bit of a rebel. You know, you brought up depression or that or anxiety for a good chunk of your life there. And you mentioned going on the ice and it all going away.

And there is something to be said about that because I think any hockey player, there's something about you get on the ice and all the world. just fades away. That's what I, you know, most guys who end up retiring from hockey miss the dressing room, but there is something to be said, but once you're on the ice, there's everything else just fades away. I always love Matt Sundeen. He mentioned the camaraderie of the room, but he said his favorite thing about the game that he misses the most was that first step through the gateway, like Brayden Hoppe, that first step through the gateway onto the ice, packed arena, big game. And he just loved that step, you know, and I do remember for me, it was standing at the

Center Ice as a referee, a big junior A playoff game and, you know, the sweaty, you know, guys in front of me had done the pregame skate and now they have all this perspiration on the back and the steam is rising and they're just full of piss and vinegar and ready to go at it. And I thought, okay, wise guy, how are you going to keep this one under control tonight? Well, and more important, how are you going to let this one fly? You know, I really wanted a game that was on the edge, not unsafe, but on the edge where the players really gave fully to the process. And it was just a great time refereeing hockey.

I think a lot about that. And I certainly think it was a good lesson in how to cope with those anxieties that I've had. While you're on Coach's Corner, I think you mentioned it. You're still rething? Are you rething full time? Not anymore. No. I stopped actually, Sean. I did it for 23 years from 1988 to 2004. When they had the lockout

that wiped out the entire NHL season, that screwed me up because as a referee, you give the calendar to your assigner and you say, okay, these are the dates I'm available in this month. I had no idea what I was doing. We were doing movie night in Canada, which was all over the country and it was filmed in different days. And I was in and out of New York to interview Bob Gooden or Gary Betman or I was into Toronto or it was just. a mess. It was like COVID-19 times. There was no real dependable scheduling. So I gave up the refereeing that year. And when it came back, it was the beginning of the two referee system. And it was a serious crackdown that year on obstruction. There was 12,000 power plays in

2003-04, the year that Tampa beat Calgary in the final. There was 18,000 power plays the year they came back and Carolina won it principally on the basis of special teams. And I'm not knocking them because I love that team and I love Brindamore's Cupboys. But I found it was just a different game and I thought two refs changes how you're going to manage a game. They don't want you to manage a game anyhow. They just want you to point and say, hey, identify a penalty and go. And they've backed off that a bit to my mind, thank heavens. So I just stopped at that point and I started playing. And I hadn't played in years and now I play twice a week and that's it. But still on the the ice. And then, you know, that's sort of do the battle of the blades. You know, that's another

version of that freedom. And back to what you were saying, the players and why I think you don't suffer anxiety as much, they say that, you know, when you use your power and when you have freedom, those are the two things that will heal you. Freedom from, you know, the shackles of addiction, freedom from no choice. If you have a choice, if you're allowed to make your choices in life, and if you're free from addictions, and secondly, if you're, you're, do something powerful, like, you know, drive a truck wagon team or play the game, you're going to heal. You're going to feel a real sense of healthiness, which is, I think, what skating and refereeing gave me. I hear a lot of successful people talk about hard work and luck.

And in your career, I know I think I've read it several times where you talk about, you know, you had some lucky breaks. and Dave Hodge is pen flip. I don't know if it gets any bigger of a break than that. But before we get to the pen flip, I'm curious because the pen flip happens. And I'm sure they had three or four or ten guys that they had thought about putting there. What did you do?

I mean, nobody can predict the pen flip. Pen flip is, I don't know, pick a word. You got a word probably. That's unbelievable to happen. that allows you to become what you become. But previous to that, how did you separate yourself from everybody else? What did you do in order to become the guy that they're like, Ron's going to be the guy?

I got really lucky that I was 26 and the incumbents, the guys they were thinking of having replaced Dave were Brian Williams and Brian McFarland. And their feeling was, and I think it was a little bit inspired by what had just happened in the United States. I might be wrong on the timing of this. but when Dan rather tried to replace Walter Cronkite, impossible. For those who don't know, Walter Cronkite was a preeminent news anchor at CBS. Larger than life.

Larger than life news anchor. And the guy who came along did okay, but, you know, really had no chance. And they knew that the guy replacing Dave Hodge was going to have no chance. And they didn't want to do that to well-known, respected broadcasters like McFarland and Williams. And they thought, we had this 26-year-old guinea pig. You were fresh meat. Who was fresh meat. And I was kind of dependable.

And the only thing that saved me, Sean, I remember because I was a deer in headlights. I was terrible for at least two years, if not more. But I had one gift that's rare, and it came from my DJing days. I was good with time counts. So ironically, when Dave Hodge flipped the pen, he was counted off the air and he had a tantrum and didn't go well. You know, he was right in everything that he said. And in the days now with social media, he would have had no trouble. There would have been a revolt so big against the CBC for firing Dave that he would have never been fired.

But back in the day where it was only male, the response came too late to save Dave. And I took over this. So I actually start my career with a scarlet letter. Everybody hates me because I'm taking over for the good guy. And I spent most of last year with the scarlet letter because grapes got let go. So I've lived that sort of torment, but that doesn't bother me one bit. It's like refereeing. You're going to half the people like the call half hate.

So I'm okay and I could live with that part of it. But anyway, I just remember, you know, that was a crazy moment to be in the room when Dave flipped the pen and then to listen to CBC posture on how that was going to go down and suddenly be there that, you know, I knew I was just this young guy that they were throwing, you know, to the wolves. And fortunately, somehow I survived the, I'd say, three-year apprenticeship and ended up staying.

Did you, when you got the call and you're like, holy man, I'm taking over for Dave Hodge, were you like, you know, if I can figure this out, this is like the biggest opportunity of my life? No, no, I didn't, Sean. And I hate to be, that's why I hope my mom doesn't think this is false modesty, but I didn't care. That part, you know, the job was a special at CKRD and Red Deer.

as it ever has been at hockey night in Canada. You know, I thoroughly enjoyed being the weatherman in Red Deer and being the DJ, putting on a song at 6 in the morning and saying it's going to be 27 today and blue skies, and here's a great tune. Go get a beer. That to me was the bedside manner, the joy of the profession. And it was as rewarding, you know, in Red Deer as it ever has been nationally. So didn't care one iota.

You know, I knew what I had to do. I knew that whoever has given me their trust. There's a great saying, Sean Dersy is a hockey player for the Guelph Storm. And most people say I want to prove them wrong. But Sean Dersy says, I want to prove the people who believe in me right. And I love that turn on that phrase. And I always had that. My mother gave me that pride and performance.

When somebody gives you their trust or faith, then you better come with everything you've got. and I do that. But I certainly have never thought of it in terms of, I don't know, fame, fortune, and all the trappings. Not a chance. Like I always say, my favorite song is the wherewithal is tragically hip. It's not my favorite song. My favorite song is Baker Street by Jerry Rafferty. But the wherewithal by the hip, message-wise, is my favorite song.

And the lyric goes, I always love that guy. He's not on TV anymore. To get out before, he had the wherewithal. And that is kind of saying, you know, he didn't have to do that. He just did that. And that's how I feel about that for sure. You know, you bring up Don Cherry and I know, you know this. I come from Western Canada.

And not only do I come from Western Canada, I come from small town Western Canada. So you can assume where most of Western small town Canada lies in their loyalties and what happens to Dawn. you guys had such a fantastic relationship, Ron. And I know just from being the different sides of the spectrum, what was awesome to tune into every night was the banter that went on between you two was fantastic. You're the guy sitting there. Was it like that or was it different? Oh, no, it was like that.

You know, in fact, when we did Scotia Bank Hockey Day in Canada, at Annoid Minster. Grapes and I did a little skit on the bar colonists and the whole, you know, the history of the oil discoveries and just how it became the border city in 1905. And Don's playing his part, reading, you know, Mayor Huxley's proclamation of, you know, how the two cities are going to get along and the amalgamation.

I watched that from time to time and just thought, that's as good as it gets, you know. Like, we have no idea why we have a dynamic. We both like beer, like hockey. Don likes Hollywood more than hockey. But anyway, I could force him, on a good night, I could force him when we go back to the hotel room to watch hockey or the NHL network, because he wanted to watch either an old classic movie or he wanted to watch Fox News and see what Trump was up to. But on the good nights, I'd be able to coerce him to watch some hockey.

And that's what people don't know. He's such a born entertainer. It's what made him a great coach. Almost like, not to like it myself, but almost my attitude towards, you know, being on hockey night in Canada was his attitude towards the National Hockey League and the Stanley Cup. He didn't care. He didn't care one iota about that, but he did care about, you know, are you giving 100% of yourself? And furthermore, he didn't want 80% of this guy and 80% of that guy, you know, to make the team. He wanted 100% self-centered, you know, go get him.

Give me everything you've got. Don't let me down. And I'll worry about the how we make this a team thing. I'll figure out the system or the ice times or whatever it takes. But you just bring everything you've got. And I love that. And so you're right. I remember just after Don got let go, of course, ironically, Remembrance Day, right, 2019.

And I was out to do hometown hockey the next weekend in Dauphin, Manitoba. So that's kind of rural Western Canada. And I'm driving by the farms and the houses. And I'm just thinking, you know, these folks are so upset that their Saturday night ritual and they're, you know, almost 40 years in the case of Don Cherry, you know, has been just summarily dismissed. and what can I do about it? There's not a damn thing I can do about it. And furthermore, you know, you've got to sit there and try and carry on.

Crazy situation. I mean, I was police escorts. It was like, you know, protests, wanted posters. It was a shitty deal. But it was also, you know, like in the scheme of things, Sean, it was, and this is my mother, you know, you have to respect each other. And Don knew where I lay on this subject. And I just wish I could have somehow convinced him or Bobby Orr or somebody could have got into his head and said, just on this one.

Say you're sorry and we're good, you know. But I understand. I fully understand why he was sick of the politically correct is how he felt about it. Sick of, you know, the New World Order. He's 86, bless his heart, you know. Why does he want to, you know, play the game? So, I mean, he danced for a lot of years. I saw Don dance when he needed to, but he wasn't going to dance this time.

And I, I, it's just brutal. You know, it's a crummy ending to a great, I will say he and I are good. And I know we're good. But it's just for the viewer who was locked into that, you know, it's, it's disappointing. What can I say? You know, I don't think, uh, if everybody took a step back from the situation, I always said they should have given Dawn a farewell tour about five years ago. It was getting to the point where,

You know, he's getting older and he's still fantastic, but you can just, at certain points, guys start to show their age. And I thought Don in the last five years started to show a bit of his age. And I thought they should have given him, you know, for what he's done for the game of hockey and entertainment and everything else. I mean, just Canada in general putting, I mean, he was iconic. I mean, you're a conic. He's sitting right beside you.

They should have given him a farewell tour and traded him like a hero. He wouldn't want that, Sean. I know. And in dawn fashion, he goes down in a burning blaze. And is there anything more Hollywood than that ending? Yeah, I think he's quite so content with how it ended, you know, for him and his values and just the, as you say, the fireball excitement of it. He always loved the movie, oh boy, White Knight or something like that where Rod Steiger is on this. So when James Cameron won the Oscar for Titanic, Best Director, and he ended his speech by saying, look ma i'm king of the world and everybody thought what a conceited jerk but it was actually stiger from the movie white heat i think it's called where he's on a big oil drum and uh he says from the top of the oil drum look ma i'm king of the world or on top of the world and a guy takes a

gun and shoots that oil drum and he blows up and that's i think for sure you're right on the money don don was happy with how it ended and uh you know he loved how bobby orr went out and you never saw Bobby struggle. You know, Bobby, and I know that, you know, it's a long career for grapes, but Bobby, you know, he won his eight Norris trophies before he was 28. Lidstrom, Doug Harvey, they won seven Norris trophies. They didn't win their first until they were 31 years of age. So Don liked the Bobby version of things. Well, you know, coming from this side of the country, where in the beginning at least, you probably didn't get a whole lot of support, I would assume. I think one thing people forget is you guys worked a lot of years together.

And that, I'm sorry, that had to been tough on you the way it went down to lose a teammate, a fellow comrade partner like that. Yeah. Overnight. Precisely. And I finally slowed down in July this month and had a chance. to, you know, once again realize just how bad the impact is internally on a person when something like that happens, you know, and it was, I was right back to 20 years old and

hyperventilating in a stereo shop on the North Hill and Red Deer. I was like, holy cow, you know, and it's impossible, Sean, to figure out what to say to somebody because a person convinced against their will is unconvinced still, and it's such a polarizing topic, and it does kind of tend to go down the political delineation as well, conservatives, and liberals, you know, most of the hate mail I get is you're just like blackface, blackface Trudeau, you know, so it's, it's, there's that. It's all lumped into it. But that has no bearing, really, if you think deeply, about Don and me.

We will always, you know, grapes has written me a really nice letter in the time since. And we talk a lot about the beer doesn't taste quite as good, you know, without the popcorn and peanuts. And, yeah, I mean, as Don said, he did what he had to do and I did what I had to do. But we're wrapped up in a, you know, Don always said, and I always hated it, but Don always said you are what you're perceived to be. And, you know, the perception for a lot of people was, what a backstabber, what a brutus, what a Judas, you know, and on and on and on. So social media was no joy ride for a good length of time. Still isn't.

But again, you're okay. I'm a referee. You're hot. Go ahead and be hot. What can I do about it? I'll just keep, you know, to my values and, you know, keep. to the gig and that's that's all you can do right you know you just got to get up and and carry on if you if you want to do what I do and I told you earlier I'm not obsessed with being the host of hockey

night in Canada but as I said in my you know address right after it happened if I walked away which I really wanted to do in a way that would be to downplay the importance of the message that was being sent ultimately and not to get preachy about this but in the end this is a crazy time where we're trying to assess social injustice. You know, whether it's the indigenous population in Canada or Black Lives Matter or Me Too, there's a crazy time of vortex of cosmic or social injustice being examined. None of us has the key, but to walk away from it, you know, would be irresponsible. I knew that.

And that would be my mom's teaching me that. You know, you just can't step down right now because then you're sort of going along to get along and you're losing face, Ron, if you do that. So you plug away. I'm curious. I've probably never in my short life paid as much attention to politics and the social injustices. And it's never been easier to. Social media, as you've alluded to, makes it extremely easy for people to connect.

But at the same time, instead of connecting, I find we're more divisive than ever. And it is unnerving. And I've been across this great country. Heck, I married a woman from the States. I've been across the States. It's great people everywhere. Anywhere you go in this world is great people. And yet, you're kind of made to believe you're on a team.

You have to pick that team. And we're against each other. And I don't know what you're on. It worries me. And I wonder where it leads because the voices that are trying to level off and just be like, you know, we can talk about some of these issues, and it's okay to talk. We don't have to yell and, you know, put everybody down. That seems to be the political landscape right now is like pitchforks are out and we're

attacking the other side with everything we got. Where do you think this is going? Oh, I think in the end, it's a really good thing. I think, you know, the world is like, it's at a little bit of a crossroads. You know, you've got China. You've got Russia. you've got UK, Brexit, you've got Germany doing there. Everybody's kind of trying to be in a global community,

but very self-interested. And that's to your point. I think, you know, to get us all on the same team is going to be a time of tremendous education. Whether you use the indigenous example in our country or black lives in the United States, segregation is not, you know, you hear this phrase suddenly, like how in the world do we only hear systemic racism in this year?

you know, but it was always there. And the examples of how housing projects in the United States, you could only get a grant to build a project if you promised not to have African Americans living in it. You couldn't put African Americans in new white developments. It's all there. It's pretty messed up. Oh, the history is terrible.

You know, and I mean, from slavery to segregation to Jim Crow and on and on. And we are kind of, I think, and I say you and me, us whites, and, you know, we are hardworking. we think ethical, you know, kind people, where we're messed up is like, good God, this is going to topple everything. This is going to be class warfare. This is going to be mass anarchy. So how do we get this right? And I think it's just going to kind of settle. I think, you know, deep down, we're all very caring. And that's going to come to the fore. At some point, somehow, you know, when the people take away the vitriol, I think it's going to work out. I think it's really going to be

time we'll look back and just say this was the reckoning that we kind of and it'll probably be social media that helps drive that. I think we'll just suddenly get to this new light and it'll be a good thing. Because I think the other version, you know, I think the reason that I had anxiety was probably because I lived in fear. You know, the expectations were such that I was just scared, not to, I was scared to fail. And you don't need to be scared to fail. You know, we'll pick each other up. in North America because we are built, not wrongly, but we're built a little bit on the iron-round fountainhead individual, you know, self-responsibility. You don't want to, you don't want anybody to adopt a victimhood stance.

So there is a, there is a fine line. But I just think the idea of self-made individuals was unfair. A lot of people don't have the, you know, inherited money. They don't have the wherewithal. They didn't have the education. They didn't have so many things are against them from the, get-go that it's not a true meritocracy. So let's fix that. And, you know, I watch, you know, Trump, Trudeau, it doesn't matter. Shear, you know, it doesn't matter. They're, they're all trying

right now. So have that it, you know, and then the public will, we'll have the final say. Oh, man. You worry about that? You trust democracy at your peril? Well, no, I guess it's a, there's a reason why on shows going into the political landscape is it, is a dangerous one because it can, it can seriously. Oh, for sure. And, you know, I kind of want to pull back to Don Cherry and coach's corner. I will say, I hope you're right. I really hope that things start to move towards better than where they've currently been. And I hope you're right.

I don't have as high a praise. And Mr. Trudeau out west here, in saying that, I try really hard. I try really, really hard to try and get both sides and read things and try and get, but man, he makes it extremely tough. And I know I got, you know, coming from the oil country and everything else, there's a lot of reasons to want to take. pitch forks to the out east and burn the town down. Well, I grew up, I grew up in Reddear, right? So Pierre Elliott Trudeau with the NEP killed us. You know, I came from Alberta when it was

riding high with Peter Lougheed and the 70s and our reserves and our funds and they killed it. So I've been there. And but the problem I think, Sean, is that, you know, ultimately your liberals are going to try and have this blanket, this welfare approach to life. So, that everybody's kind of protected. And Pierre Elliott Trudeau, and I know some of your listeners are gone, but, I mean, he did a lot in 72 to help save people like the guy that produces,

rather, and directs, Hockey Night in Canada, Shirelli Najax family came from Uganda because of Trudeau. Unbelievable human being. Shirelli's a best producer that I've ever worked for. He's his melee Muslim. And it's just bizarre that this guy is such a great hockey guy. And, you know, the guy that negotiated the deal

that Roger signed, the $5 billion deal is Nadir Muhammad is mainly Muslim from, I think, Tanzania. These all happened in 72 and those families were invited in. And not everybody's going to be happy about it, but look, Lloyd Minster doesn't happen without the Barr colonists. And I know that's the colonialists. That's the UK version. But it's a form of immigration. And not everything that they did, Lloyd and Barr was loved by everybody either.

So that's the tolerance. That's the flip of it. And then the conservatives, of course, they are more. tailored to the self-made individual and tax cuts and, you know, you're on your own. But everybody's selfish. Everybody, the conservative wants to be themselves and take care of and do I don't want to worry about that. I just want to worry about and the liberals saying, well, geez, just in case I get caught,

I need this protection. They're selfish too. Everybody's selfish. So don't be mad at either. This is why I look at it. Try and guide. Yeah. Well, let's rewind the clock.

Let's go back to the first night before you hop on with Don Cherry and Coach's Corner. What was running through your head and were you like me and not sleep a wink before this? I don't remember that part. I do remember the first time I went on with Don was Dave Hodge was still with Hockey Night in Canada. He was hosting in Vancouver that night. So it was early October, 1986. I just remember being rigid, Sean. I was scared in the sense of, you know, stiff and this not relaxed at all,

Deering headlights. And that lasted for years. So, and I can remember even doing the NHL Awards in 1995. So I've been around now for a decade and, you know, the drum roll. And here's your host, Ron McLean. And I just had another panic attack as I hit the stage. And I quickly cracked a joke that I thought would buy me some time to get my breathing under control. And I got it.

I got it under control. But, yeah, I mean. Again, I didn't overplay the responsibility or the opportunity. I just wanted to do well for the fact that Don Wallace had hired me, and I owed him a good performance. I wanted to be a good teammate. I'm raised in sports, so I wasn't out for Dave Hodges' job or out to prove anything to anybody in particular.

I just wanted to pull my weight. So what was the anxiety about? And maybe you've already said it once or twice. but I'm just listening to that again and it's not about the opportunity or anything like that. So what were you having anxiety about going on an award show about it? Well, in the case of the award show, it's just that I'm going to do the monologue. I used to get it doing the weather in Red Deer. And it was this feeling of being kind of naked and it's all on you for the next seven minutes.

So in Red Deer, when I would do the weather, it was budgeted for three and a half minutes. But we'd often have the clips didn't run successfully on the newscast. We had a lot of lousy equipment. So they would say, hey, Ronnie, you've got to pick up the extra three and a half minutes that were short here. So I'd have seven minutes. Bang, I'm on camera, and I really hadn't prepared seven minutes. I'd prepared three and a half minutes of what I was going to say. And that feeling left me unglued, and I would get the anxiety attack.

In the case of the NHL awards, it's like bang on stage and you've got to do an opening monologue, and you've got a lot of business to take care of. And it's about, I don't know, four to five minutes that you're there and no one else's. there. You know, you have no colleague to play off of. It's just you. And you got to, and I don't use a teleprompter, never have. So I got to remember everything that I'm doing, and I want to deliver it well. And I get scared. I just get scared. You know, it's like when I referee, maybe that's the secret to refereeing is the puck drops and all hell breaks loose and you don't have time to think. But I sure had time to think as I walked onto that stage. And yeah. And I remember,

depends on the year, but sometimes I would have had, in my opinion, a rough last broadcast, you know, maybe grapes would beat me up or something and I wasn't feeling, you know, 100% strong in my own skin. It's crazy, you know, it really is a vulnerable life when you're in the, you know, crosshairs of millions of eyes. And you know better than to think that way. I mean, you know that what they think shouldn't matter, but you're only human. You know, in reading your book, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for you and grapes sitting having a garbage can full of beer after broadcast. What was that experience like throughout your career?

Was that just some of the coolest moments of your life? Or was it? For sure. For sure, it is among the coolest moments of life. And I mean, I'm a beer league hockey player. So we go to the fire hall after the games on Wednesday nights. we go to the thirsty penguin after the games on Tuesday nights. I love to drink beer and talk, you know.

Kurt Benzmiller and I had a fantastic night after Rogers' hometown hockey was in Lloyd Minster, him and his buddies, we just sit around drink beer and get crazy. Grapes doesn't. Grapes is a poor drinker. He starts fast, but he starts to seize at about four bud lights. So I have to finish the extras. We would sit and talk, and sometimes it would get really, really, you know, And he hated the left-wing pinko communists.

You know, the anti-Trudeau sentiment was well represented with grapes and just could not stand left-wing policy. And then I would counter, of course, with my left-wing pinko communist. And in my house, again, you think, well, how does a kid from Red Deer turn so bad? You know, how does he like Trudeau or give him any time? My mom loved Trudeau. My father did not love Trudeau. My father was a conservative all the way.

Bob Stanfield from Nova Scotia was his guy back in the day. But, you know, I loved the yin and the yang of us. and I learned eventually not to take the bait. You know, I used to get kind of crushed when Don was cruel to me, not on air. Of course he did it on air, but he'd also do it in the hotel room where he would just lose himself and start yelling at me. But eventually I got to roll with it and got to laugh at it and got to enjoy it. And we really did have a good thing going. You know, all Don loved to do was sit and watch not so much the shows, but the commercials.

say, why would they do that? Makes their car look like a crap. You know, and he had an observation about, you know, the political correctness of the representation in the ad or the this and the that. And he was just a joy to, you know, sit and drink with because it was like I needed to drink after listening to some of it. But he was, he was a, you know, we had fun.

We just truly did. And we plotted our, I don't even know if we plotted our course per se. But we did. We would talk about the next coach's corner and what we were doing. We talked shop. We would talk the old days, you know, him coaching and me, the old days, me refereeing. And it was great times.

I remember reading, I wouldn't cold cock, Don. I always warned him about what I was thinking. Whereas. But he'd play it as, you know, kind of off the cuff to help save yourselves. Is there moments that stick out where you had a grand plan? I got this great topic. And one or two things. It catches you hell.

because it's probably less hockey, more political, world event? Or was there just moments where you're just like, holy crap, how do I pull this back? Well, there's so many, Sean. I mean, the war in Iraq is one famous situation where we debated Kretchen, was the prime minister at the time, and chose not to support the Americans in going into the war in Iraq. That was a, you know, I had people, producers,

like not just producers in the mobile, but producers at CBC on the phone in my ear telling me to cease and desist. Stop talking about this and I'd opened the can of worms and I couldn't get off of it. I took a real risk, could have been fired that night and probably should have been. Another one that's, you know, we had Perry Belgard on the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations joined us in Regina this year for the Outdoor Classic and that's all me. You know, poor Don. What are you doing to me?

I don't know. I got some good stuff about Bobby Orr. Never mind, Don. This is a good time to do Chief Perry. You know, you'll enjoy it. And we did. But I remember Phil LaFontaine was a high up in the First Nations. And there was Chris Simon.

Chris Simon had been suspended twice, 55 games over two suspensions. He got 30 for a cross check on Ryan Holweig, came back a game. And then the next game, he stomped on Yarko Routou of the Pittsburgh Penguins and got a 25-game suspension. And I said to Don, I said, you know, Chris's First Nations Ojibway, a lot of young First Nations kids in Canada grow up feeling they're not going to get a fair shake. and they don't trust the judiciary. And maybe that explains why he would come right back after a 30-game suspension and get another lengthy suspension. And Don launched into a, what do you call it?

I'm an inferior complex because he's an Indian or whatever. And it was terrible. You know, it was just like a complete, politically incorrect, brutal moment that I had created. And maybe in that case, I had sprung that on Don. And that's an example of why I did not, as a rule, spring anything on Don. But he would spring things for sure on me. If he knew he wanted to do something politically incorrect, he'd keep it from me. That's what you're talking about to protect me because he knew he might go down.

And that's what happened even on the last one. He knew what he was doing. But it just went wrong. And then for whatever reason, as I say, he couldn't abide saying, sorry. You know, I can't speak for everybody. Certainly cannot speak for everybody. one of the cool things about you two was you represented the opposite sides and skip craik from lloyd here former natcheller long time ago on each other he told me i had him on way back

in the beginning and he always told me hockey mirrors society yeah and you two being the opposites mirrored society for a long time and the way it ended i just can't get out of my head that it's too bad that's the way it went because I feel like it fueled the fire of what's going on less so than dampening in a little bit. Oh I agree Sean I agree wholeheartedly and I mean it was it's it's in the swirl of uh so you know I mean the next day I'm at rogers hometown hockey in well and Ontario the Sunday the 10th of November and I'm having to apologize and I have to apologize you know we we are under a tremendous uh not from the hockey fraternity. So that's the crazy part about this, right? The hockey could have easily closed

ranks and nobody would have been the wiser. But this became a national story outside of our domain and it was certainly social media driven domain. And that's a huge deal for Rogers. You know, that's a telecommunications company that suddenly got half of the nation upset with it. So I had to apologize. And it was clumsy as clumsy gets because I was busy with a panel of five NHL guys, Paul Biesonet. I was at his home all day. I was shooting all these other things. And so it was lousy. Just a lousy deal. Well, you you beat yourself up, Ron, because that's what, uh, I mean, all the pressure on you. People, most people will never even come close to a glimpse of experiencing that sort of pressure, having that many eyes on you. I can't even imagine. I can't even

imagine just being like, holy crap, right? Like Don, Don Cherry says, if you go back, through Don and his work. Part of the reason people love him is because he says things that are inappropriate times. Whether if you go back like 20 years and he's talking about women gabbing in the stands, right? That's done. And that's what 90, well, not 90, that's what made the shock value of what you guys did

good because you want people talking about it. It's buzz. And I admit that. The minute you shut down dissent, you know, or shut down the other. You rather know what the enemy is thinking, let's call it. giving him the enemy for just a moment. I think it just became, Sean, again, you know, as a corporation, first of all, Rogers,

this is a corporate, you know, it used to be CBC would get mad at Don and the board of directors who owed a lot to the province of Quebec, you know, and would be just like outraged his things that he would say. But it was government, so they were less apt to act. Money, now you're talking. You know, it's like the Euston changed their name

when corporations finally got involved and said, hey, wait, in good conscience. Or the red skin. that's corporations as well exactly and that's that was the difference this time you know we were suddenly not owned by the CBC we were suddenly owned by somebody who has to have a corporate position or value statement of what they stand for and Sean whether we like it or not because of I don't know more and Me Too and Black Lives Matter and all these different moments in time that are happening simultaneously that are changing the way North

America, the world operates. You know, this is a, this is a collective idea that how we did things wasn't quite perfect. And you only need, like I do, go to First Nations Reserves and do the Rogers Hometown telecast to see how unjust, you know, the situation is. And I know there's a ton of, you know, ways you could say, well, oh, my God, that person's irresponsible and they've given up and they're a vein of society. But we made it that way. And we have to face that.

At some point, somehow, some way, I think we have to face it. And it's just so tricky. I feel, I agree 100% that, you know, for Don to have to go down on that one was really hard to watch and to be a part of. But in the end, on principle, and that's what, you know, and that's, imagine grapes hearing that from a friend. And nobody wants to hear someone say, principle is more important than friendship. Nobody likes that. We all love loyalty. We all think loves love. But if you really love someone, then you would go with principle for their sake and for the sake of others.

You know, that's when that's the true test is will you, will you just pander to your friend and tell them what they like to hear? Or will you love your friend and tell them what they need to hear? You know, if you're raising your kids, at some point you're going to tell them when somebody says, hey, try this crack cocaine. you hope they have the courage not to choose friendship over what's right. Well, I said at the beginning, I'd warn us at 55 minutes. Well, we've hit 55 minutes. And all I can think of is I got the producer in my ear going, Sean, get off the topic. You have so many things you want to talk about.

So I find it, the reason I obviously talk about it so much is it's obviously on my mind. And not so much you and Dawn, I think. I think that it's just, that's where we are. That is where we are and you both have handled it in the ways you thought was best. And honestly, from viewers, that's all anyone ever expected out of you to at all times. At all times. That's the way you've been for 37 years of working together is you both are on the opposite sides and it's been so fun to watch. Now, at 55 minutes, do I have you for a few more?

I've been grilling you for a bit. Well, let me tell you one story and then you can think of a question. But for the 100th anniversary of your show, I remember being in Lloyd for the 100th anniversary of Saskatchewan and Alberta. So 2005, the Western Hockey League, I don't know if you were there. The Western Hockey League had an All-Star game. Were you there? Yeah, I believe so, yeah. So we're in the arena and the power goes out.

We have a massive heavy snowstorm. And I remember leaving the rink and it was like a procession like Field of Dreams. cars all going to get beer. That was the focus was to go get beer and then back to the hotel and we drank beer. I remember Dean and Deb McArthur were at the game and anyway, it was a great,

I don't know if the Reddens were there or the Hartnals, but anyway, it was a great, great night and it all was around drinking beer. So when you get, this conversation you and I have been having is very much a campfire chat. You know, it's what you do with,

minus the beer. And it's important. Would have been better with beer, Ron. Well, I don't know. The Trudeau thing might have really sent you. No, no, no. I'm just kidding. No, I know.

I really try to pride myself in, in, well, it's one of your lessons, right? Trying to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and trying to calm that. I'm an emotional guy. I really resonate with the Don Cherry. You're at a bar. I get in a fight. whether I'm right or wrong, Ron, we're friends. Are you fighting? I think anyone in their dog can get behind that. That makes complete sense to anyone. And we've all been pulled into a fight we don't want to be in.

Yeah. It works for the bar. It does work for the bar. Because if you see your buddy getting in a tussle, yeah. The brotherhood says, we're getting in a tussle. And you're going to have a beer and you're going to ice your fist or your eye or whatever afterwards and you're going to figure it out. On a larger scale, it becomes way more complicated than that. Like way more. but I don't know I got to be honest I didn't plan this coming on and I find myself going I got it in my ear and I can hear the producer going you know it's time to move on it's time to move on and I read it in you know about you when you get stuck on uh you know you go back to when you had done your research I listened to you on 630 Chad this was right before I

started this probably three years ago Ron instead of Bob Stauffer being on it was one of the interns or one of the producers was uncovering for Bob Stauffer and he'd asked a question of you what do you what makes you like listen to you just rattle off facts and whatever and you'd had a lesson early on in your career this is what you were telling them that for every hour you're on with a guest you need to do 10 hours of research and preparation. And I did, I've done so much prep work on you. And at the end of the day, I didn't think I was walking in to talk about politics. I really didn't. And yet, here we are. And we've talked probably 40 minutes on politics. And I, I know that my, uh, viewing audience is Don Cherry. They're, they're going to, they're going to harass me that I didn't

grill you more. Except that I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you, sir, are the reason why I do so much preparation. You're also one of the reasons why I try at all times to push myself to be in the other person's position and try and figure that out because I think that is a really difficult thing to do at all times. When you want to go screaming mad and just let emotion take over, you've got to have the ability to just take a step back and kind of see things for what's happening and understand both sides. because there's always two sides of a coin, always. Right. Yeah, I think that's it in a nutshell. And, you know, it's, it's, there's, it's a time of great listening, you know,

none of us, it's hard not to sit in judgment, right? That's the, the world is hardwired now to likes and dislikes. And that's a social media phenomenon, but it's also, you know, it's always been there. And that's why you're right. It was nice in the case of the coach's corner to have sort of polar opposites, try and ironically you know if Don goes down over saying something bad about those who are marginalized he was always the voice of the marginalized he was the anti-establishment he was the one with whom they connected or could identify so there is there are tremendous you know confusions

about that whole situation but and I think as a broadcaster you know as a you know especially now You know, I watch it like you do. I watch it all and I think, God, this is so immense, so serious. Could I ever, you know, come up with the words or come up with something that will bridge? It seems impossible. But it's the challenge. It's the challenge before us right now. And yeah, you don't want, and that's, you know, even going into this hockey, we haven't even talked to hockey.

We're going into this crazy hockey Stanley Cup tournament, right? where we have the qualifying round and then we have four rounds of playoffs, knock on wood that, you know, we get through this with all the COVID. But I think to myself, okay, we're just going to take summer and throw it off to a total escape of getting to watch McDavid and Drysightel do their thing. That's a good thing. But I also feel a little bit of an abdication of the heavy conversation that have been going on for a couple of months here.

And oh gosh, it's complicated. You know nobody wants it ram down their throat. Back to that, a man against, you know, convinced against his wife. will is unconvinced still. There's nothing I can say to change your, you know, your way. But I will go to my grave kind of trying to facilitate pulling out the different versions. And in the case of, you know, when you cross the line, like as an example with grapes in me, and then we'll leave it alone, but maybe, when you have two guys in a foxhole and the commanding officer comes along and says, okay, we're taking that hill.

And the one guy says, no, I'm not going. Well, now what do you do? Do you stay with your friend or do you do what the commanding officer wanted? And it's tricky. You know, a military, it's like the poor police under incredible, you know, pressure right now. And you know how we all love and admire police officers. When we see mistakes made, those are mistakes made. That isn't to, you know, condemn the entire force. But they feel it, you know, they feel, you know, most of the great things, like I always say with hockey,

When you say change the hockey culture, yes, certain things need to change. But God, the humble Broncos don't need to change. You know, you would want, Brad Richards was sent off to play at Athel Murray School in Wilcox. You would want to put your child in the care of Barry McKenzie or Terry O'Malley. Lots of great things in hockey. So, you know, we shouldn't get ourselves too wound or too out of joint about it. We should try, like you just said, try to be balanced. But that isn't easy.

It definitely is not easy. You know, was there ever a time, Ron, where you had done your research and were convinced of a point and had your mind changed? I'll give you the, my core belief was that men and women are the same and that we are all the same. And I think through the last 10 years, you know, because I was an only child again without context, but I firmly believe that the human condition had to be the same for everyone. But I think what I've realized in the last few months is the experience of living an indigenous life

or a black life or a female life or a transgender life, you know, not to scare your audience again. And these are all uniquely shaping these people's lives. And I was a bit, you know, growing up in Red Deer, Alberta, privileged, as we like to call it. And if I use the term white male privilege, just infuriates people, right? But that's what I had. I had privilege. I had to worry about my hockey card collection and hopefully marrying a pretty girl. And that's what I had to worry about.

You realize ears are absolutely on fire right now. I probably just get turned off. That's our right. Oh, I know. You can't say it, right? No, you can, you can say it. Yeah. Yeah, you have to.

You can't be afraid of that stuff. You know, like, hey, listen, I go to the rodeo every year. You think it's easy to deal with animal activists? No, no, I was going to say this. You can say it. The thing that rural communities have an issue with, and there is a bone of contention there, Ron, is you, you know, I get to, I go, I'm working for the Lloyd archives now for the last little bit. And I've got to go around and interview roughly, let's call it 70 to 90 year olds about their stories and their journeys and the lives they've lived and the hardships they've had to endure. And what white privilege, that word in itself doesn't take into account in my opinion is that those stories of life on the prairies was not was not easy.

And I don't think most, well, there's the stories of people just pack it up and go at home because this life sucks. All the privilege means, Sean, is that as an example, when the treaties were signed on the, you know, the Sinavoyne and Red River in Manitoba and the land was supposed to be the First Nations, it was taken. It was just taken and arbitrarily taken by the colonists and farmed and they made money and the First Nations were moved to Pegwis and then beyond. And then they were put in residential schools. that's what privilege is. It's that you didn't have that. You didn't have your culture stripped from you. Like maybe, you know, so that's all it is. It's not saying that life is easy or that you have, but, but you just aren't put in a position where it's so hard to succeed, which is what happened to the indigenous, which is what happened to the blacks in America. That's all. No, and I should say,

my wife is from Minnesota and she tells me all the time that we get so defensive about it. because it's an attack on us when it's just a that's right she's right you know as an example the calgary stampede starts with guy weedic he gets all the credit but it was his wife uh grace bensal who uh was raised uh on a sue reserve in minedosa minnesota uh she learned a trick ride with the first nations down there they call them in the native americans uh she was the driving force she was the star performer he was okay but she was incredible um and florence ladue is what her rodeo pseudonym was amazing story right and uh but they they just you know and i mean when you you hear well they'd like to take the four presidents off mount rushmore of course it makes you

think what the hell you know like uh it just doesn't sound right but but it's all part of it it's it's a it's a very fascinating time you know and uh oh my god wendell clark when we were doing uh scotia bank hockey day where the hell were we this year yellow knife so uh he comes to the dresser room and he starts to talk about the modern way of coaching and he's mocking, you know, the miscongeniality that's now coaching the National Hockey League guys. And it's always, we're all twisted right now, but, but it's important. You know, it's, it's just, it's a bit, and we are defensive. We, we, we are worried that, you know, everything that we have that we worked so hard for

is somehow going to be diminished or altered or taken. And it's not. It's what, you know, it's like women's rights. They're not saying replace us, men. They're saying, let us work alongside and maybe give you a point of view that, you know, like, back to my mom. I mean, if I don't have my mom's point of view on life, I'm lost. Not everybody gets to have a mom and a dad. That's privilege.

That's all it is. It's just examples of something that others are never going to or have had and being aware so that you're not blind all the time to their sensibility. Which this is going to lead me to. I've wondered this about you for a long time because you are absolutely excellent at speaking and talking and talking about different issues. How do you prepare for something that's not in your wheelhouse? You did hockey for so, well, continue to do. I shouldn't say did. You continue to do it.

And it's been a mainstay. And, you know, you joked earlier that, you know, we haven't talked about. We haven't talked about playoffs coming up, which is kind of hilarious. Yes. But how do you prepare, sir, for things that aren't in your wheelhouse? And I just mean wheelhouse as, you know, your mainstay job is hockey and going to hockey communities and talking to hockey people and having their stories shared, but through kind of the context of hockey. Well, for me, it's reading. Obviously, Sean, you can see the bookshelf in behind me.

Like all those books up there, that's all First Nations research. You know, there's a book called A Fair Country by John Ralston-Soul, another one called. all the comeback, fantastic. Tanya Talega, Seven Feathers Fallen, Tanya Tegok, split tooth, and on and on and on. Those are books about the indigenous situation in Canada. Way over here, on the other side of the bathroom door, those are all books on ethics. That shelf of war there above the TV. Those are all, that could be Aristotle. That could be, you know, Margaret Somerville's an ethicist who taught at McGill. So, and I always, I'll tell you a story how I got onto this was with grapes back in the 80s. I was speaking at the Ontario high school hockey championships

in Dryden, Ontario, just outside Thunder Bay. That's where I played my junior. So you know, yeah. And I'm in Dryden and a kid comes up to me, he says, hey, Mr. McLean, would you sign an autograph for my brother, Jeremy? And I was with the guidance counselor at the local high school. And he says, hey, Todd, don't you want an autograph for Mr. McLean? And Todd says, oh, no, I'm a grapes guy. Grapes is right. Get rid of the foreigners. Now this is like 1988 and I thought holy cow I got to have to read a little bit about ethics and how I'm going to sort of a swage the message that we're giving. And that's that that that is how it happens. You know like so I read. I just you know and it doesn't and that's again back to you can read till the cows come home doesn't give you the wisdom that living the life you know

on the reserve or in the ghetto. You know it just doesn't represent. I have not one. I have not make up and a dress. It doesn't give me the right to think that men and women come from the same. I'm sure at core we have certain things that are identical, but I have definitely had my little world of convenience shattered. Well, I got to sit down with Theo Flurry about a week ago and talk to him a little bit about what he'd gone through. And I know what you mean when you say I didn't wear, I haven't wore the dress or what have you. I certainly have not been in the position of Theo's. When he talks, it's hard to offer up suggestions because his experience is just so, well,

everybody knows, most people I would assume know Theo's story. And it's awful. It is absolutely awful. And I don't know how I'd ever deal with what he's gone through. And to hear his perspective is very interesting. And what you're suggesting it once again with your book collection and everything is you can learn about it. But it's different to read and learn, but it's something to go through it and live it. Here's another example, Shad, the hip hop artist.

So I know nothing about hip hop music. I mean, it has been at the top of the rock charts. It is the top of Billboard's Hot 100 for 20 years now, hip hop music. Drake, of course, of Canada is the number one in the world. it's almost like growing up in the 60s and not knowing there was a British invasion, missing the Beatles and the Stones and David Bowie and the rest of it. That's how bad it is for me not to know a thing about hip-hop. I remember saying to Kurt Benzmiller, I said, you guys, he said, do you know the red hot chili

peppers? He said, yeah, Ron, we get radio and Dewberry. He was mad at me. But I don't know hip-hop much. Shad, the hip-hop artist from Toronto, said there's a thing called false equivalencies, and that is the difference between what you read or you learn in school. and what you experience. And it was a great lesson.

You know, again, it's just to hear these, you know, normally I feel like Sean, I'm 60 years old. I've been paid, I don't take much money for even speaking. I take a fee for that either. But I used to get paid to go speak. Now I feel like it's going to be time to get paid to go listen. You know, just go around the country, keep listening. And I have.

You know, I was out at Salmon Arm, was the last show we did on hometown hockey before the COVID-19 outbreak. And we were telling the story of Tara Sloan, my colleague, the co-host of the show, the story of her grandmother and how her grandmother was not allowed to go to McGill, even though she qualified, she was Jewish.

And they had a quotient on the number of Jews. So there again, privilege. Lots of people go to McGill, but not Jews. And so she qualified. She was given a rare exemption to go, and her father said, no, no. Better that you be a nurse or a teacher. A judge or a lawyer is not really a woman's work.

so she wasn't allowed to go by your father. Tara told that story. And then the mayor in Sam and Arms said, well, then you should know about Mary Thomas. Mary Thomas is known as the mother of Truth and Reconciliation. So that feather, the leather feather. Okay. Yeah, you see it over there?

Yeah, behind the two beaded pendants. That's from Sam and Arms First Nations Reserve. And Mary Thomas raised 13 kids, fought for legal rights for the indigenous in her Shushawap Lake District. That's the Shushwap Reserve, First Nation. Unbelievable story. And the mayor was dialed into it in a way that was, and he's a longtime educator, teacher.

It was great. And that's, so I'm going to keep going around the country. And I know, and I believe me, I will keep grapes alive in the conversation and in my heart. And I won't let someone who, you know, is not. interested in the PC movement, just be excluded. That won't happen. I'm a referee. I want you to drop the gloves when you need to. Well, it's good it's good to have discussion. Yeah. You've got to keep no no different than the marriage or or in politics, anything. When you stop talking, that's when the real problems arise. Yeah, exactly. You know, over your career, you've got to be around some

Absolute legends. I mean, you just name them and you've interviewed them, talked to him, that kind of thing. Did you ever have a moment where you got to be fly on the wall or sit down and have a beer and you're looking around the room going like, how am I sitting here? And maybe the stories that were shared. Many. You know, I didn't really think about it at the time, but I interviewed Muhammad Ali when I was 24. That's fair to be a good to sit down with Muhammad Ali. Interviewed him in Calgary. He was there to visit, he was on a corporate gig, a third. a man who sold fur coats, brought Muhammad Ali in, and only two guys got to interview him, myself for television and a guy named Don Sands, a radio announcer.

Anyway, yeah, imagine 24 years old interviewing Muhammad Ali, and, you know, Gretzky's the same. What the heck did you, what did you ask? I don't remember. I was 24. I just remember it was around the time of the Olympics, so I asked him about Shauna Sullivan and Willie DeWitt. And I talked a little bit about his, you know, Howard Cosell. That was fascinating to me, his famous interviews with Howard Cosell. But yeah, I hardly remember it. It's 35 years ago plus. And my, for me, there's been so many times. Like I emceed the closing of Maple Leaf Gardens. I emceed Canada Day on Parliament Hill the last time Her Majesty the Queen was there. It was funny. Christopher Plummer. You know who he is? He's an actor.

Did the sound of music. He's 80 plus now. So not everybody knows Christopher Plummer, but still was doing Shakespeare down in Stratford, Ontario. Her Majesty loved Plummer, the actor for his role in the sound of music. So she wanted him to introduce her at Canada Day ceremony on Parliament Hill. I'm the master of ceremonies. I'll introduce Christopher and he'll introduce Her Majesty. So he writes up a little intro for the Queen and it has to go through Scotland Yard and the RCMP and Parliament Hill and Buckingham Palace. And they come back to Christopher and said it's a little too highbrow.

We need to simplify this, Christopher. well, you can go F yourself. I'm not coming. So we don't think he's coming to introduce the queen. Then the word comes on June 30th. That evening, he's going to actually drive from Stratford, or be driven, from Stratford after his performance in the Shakespeare Festival, to Ottawa, and he is going to introduce the queen, and he has simplified the message somewhat. So he arrives on a blistering hot morning. He's straight through the night they drive, say eight hours up to Ottawa. He arrives, and there's a dressing room for him and me. I'm with Christopher Plummer. I don't know how many Academy Awards and everything else.

So he and I are sharing a dressing room. And he arrives and they're on a meal break. So there's nobody to show him where to go on the stage or where his microphone will be or how to get onto the stage. So I do that. I take over as his wrangler and I show him where he's going to enter the stage and where he's going to do the address to introduce the queen. And this is Christopher Plummer.

For me, Sean, that is a weird deal. That is, I don't know who your hero is, but he's not my hero, but he kind of is. And then I take him back to our little Atco trailer dressing rooms. set up on Parliament Hill and I put him in there and I think, God, the man needs a moment to himself. He's been driving through the night. He did Shakespeare last night. He's going to introduce Her Majesty. So I leave him and I go out and sit in the grass. Now I got an emcee about a three-hour show and it's 30 degrees already at 10 in the morning, blistering hot sun pouring down on my bald head. I'm just getting soaked, you know, like having to give him some space. And we do the show and the 80-year-old

Christopher Plummer goes out there and he just, honest to God, it was spelled by. finding how great he was. He introduced her majesty like actors do or every word is eight syllables. I introduced the last of the hip. That was another freaking a mind-blowing moment when I was in Rio de Janeiro and they're up in Kingston to do the last show. So lots of, you know, how does a kid from Red Deer end up in those gigs? But that's just, it comes with the territory. Well, I think it's a tip of the cap of how talented you are at what you do. Or lucky or just, you know, it's like they know, I'm known commodity, right? So I always say that.

Here's I would win TV awards, I think, for that was horrendous, you know, but you're on Hockey You call it luck. I'll give you, I'll give you luck once or twice. I'll give you the break with Dave Hodges, call it luck, call it, you know, divine fate of it was coming anyways. But after that, I mean, you watch what you do and, you know, just the bookshelf of how many books. you, there's a reason why your ability to sit across from anyone or to go to a new place. Like, how many new places do you go to in a new year? And a year?

Yeah. And how many guests? And every time, it's like, it's downright impressive when you're talking to somebody. You're like, holy man, that's kind of cool. Like, that you can just, you have that mind. I think Kelly Rudy equated you to Wayne Gerexki as, being in the same conversation, obviously Wayne's the hockey player, but just the way your minds work.

Yeah. And as a viewer, you can see it. He remembers 802 goals. Well, he ended up with 894, but he remembers them all, right? And he is a year, and I have a good short-term memory. I don't think I have Wayne's memory, per se, Sean. But, you know, Gretzky is a, he's a special one to observe for sure. And in my case, you know, I can pick up something and I've got it.

So that's, you know, when you're interviewing a myriad of guests, it's nice to have a good short-term memory. Ask me five years from now. Who knows? Well, let me take you back to 1994 then. The 99 All-Stars. This is so foreign to my brain because I would have been eight years old at the time. I wouldn't have really been paying attention to much. The hockey season wasn't been playing anyways.

But you get to go with just a crazy group of talented athletes overseas. away from everything. What was that experience like? And is there any stories you can share from? Oh, gosh. Yeah, so many. I mean, Wayne stole my passport. How's that?

You know, I was partying. I was drinking double salt, sambuca with beer. And I don't know if Wayne thought I was partying too much, but he stole my passport to make morning hard. You know, like I would have a tough time. Unbeknownst to Wayne, I woke like after I went to bed,

I woke an hour later, couldn't find my passport. I panicked. I got on a train to, I went down to the lobby and one of the Finnish journalists, we were in Finland, said, well, Ron, you know, tomorrow is the last day before Independence Day here in Finland is December 5th or 6th. So you better get to the passport office. So I just jumped on a train down to Helsinki. I was in Temperi.

That's one story. And my favorite, though, is we move on into Sweden. And we're, well, actually, take that back. We're in Oslo first. We play a game in Oslo, Norway. and the king, Johann Olaf Koss, is a speed skater. He and the king host us for a big soiree afterwards, and that night gets carried away.

And I remember Rob Blake, Brett Holland, myself, and one of Wayne's Janet's brother. We go to a house party like an hour north of Oslo, well into the night, scramble back again to make the bloody bus or the flight. We go over to Gothenburg, Sweden. After the game, we go to the bar at the SAS Hotel and I go to the bar and get a rum and coke for Bob Cole,

the play-by-play, of course, and I get myself a beer. And I'm coming back to the table for Bob Cole to drop off the rum. And there's Mark Messier sitting with two beautiful women, and they say, hi, Ron. And they said, oh, you must be from Canada. Oh, Ron, you were at our house party north of Oslo last night. I had no idea, you know, how they ended up at Gothenburg now. And so Mark Messier just howls at that.

and he says, every man for himself, hey, Ron? And it's a crazy group of frolicing and, you know, it was Talkett. And it was a formative time in the NHL with lockouts and labor strife and it's Gretzky and Federoff. And as I mentioned, Hall and Blake and Kelly Rudy and Grant fears the other goals. I remember Grant made about 82 saves in the first period alone in Oslo, Norway. Serge Bois-Veer, former Montreal Canadian, was playing for Norway. He was making fools of our greatest players in the NHL. But that's because they were all partying and having a good time.

What about Gary Bettman? I think as a kid and even into adulthood, any time I heard you were having him sit down with you, you circled it in a big, all right, that's a date. I'm making sure that I'm there and I'm watching. Was it the same for you where you is geared up for that time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that was an issue-oriented, much like these conversations about social injustice,

that was an issue about justice. In this case, it was management labor relations. But it was an extreme... I've always felt, Sean, that the whole template of collective bargaining is unfair. But it's interesting because it flipped a little during COVID. They negotiated a deal in which the players, actually, I thought, had the leverage.

Now, whether they made the best deal, I can't tell you. But I never liked the idea that the players would have to sit out for a year and a half in order to even threaten the billionaire owner. Because the billionaire owner's business model is so, diverse that this is just a you know drop in the bucket this concern over here so here's a guy trying to negotiate for his livelihood and for his players rights uh against that impossible to me uh situation but having said that that was why the challenge of the interviews uh to represent um you know players are you know they're drafted in out of midget into the juniors and they're drafted into the national

hockey league where their salaries capped four ways there's a team cap there's an individual cap um etc These are ethics issues. Extremely important. These two rows of books over here are all business books. And that is a fascination of mine. But the horses out of the barn on the bright side, no one has to listen to it anymore because once the cap was won by Gary Betman in 2005,

all bets are off. That was the issue. That was the heart of the argument. of the argument, you know, is a cap fair? I felt not. But the players ultimately, it was their choice, and they agreed to a cap. And so now they, the only snag in that is it really doesn't affect too many, but, you know, believe it or not, Connor McDavid's underpaid and always will be. You know, Michael Jordan, geez, Jordan was negotiating $33 million contracts back in the early 90s. it isn't the best system it isn't the best system to force business to be accountable and to make more money for the players

but it you know no one's going to go home horribly dissatisfied or poor what did don't have to say when you were when you had a big interview oh yeah he he would stand up well in the old days gary and i've been getting along lately because like i said the horses out of the barn i really don't have any leg to stand on in arguing now. But in the day when it was contentious and significant, Gary would have Frank Brown, his public relations director, he'd have a phone that had a little decibel meter on it. So he would be sitting there, you know, monitoring the tone of the conversation to ensure that Gary didn't get hysterical.

He'd let him know that, no, no, no, Gary, don't look like you're alarmed at this little rat. And then Bill Daly would be there and John Collins and, you know, the who's who of the National Hockey League office. and right next to them would be grapes staring at me. Don't you screw this up. Don't you go and get fired now because, you know, anyway. So now you're all going to say, well, he was good to you.

Why aren't you good to Dawn? Yeah, well, I would argue with Bettman. I'll argue with Don about, and Don was not a union guy. He had the appearance of being a union guy. He hated the unions. Don was a selfish guy. How would Don show up and just like the most absurd suits sometimes? Absolutely epic, but I mean absurd.

And the one that sticks out, and it's funny, I mean, we brought up Kelly a couple times, but it's the blue Chavon. Yeah. I was like, when you're standing across from him, were you just like, this is absolutely hysterical? I wouldn't even notice a lot of the time. The only time I remember is in Dallas, 99, he came down the, it was a glass elevator through the atrium of hotel. And he stopped everybody in their tracks. You know, the people in Texas were all looking at like, what the hell is that? It was a green, lime green suit.

top to tail. But no, I was oblivious. You know, you're focused like we get on the content and and not the material, so to speak. Well, I really do appreciate you hopping on. I've kept you for an hour and a half. I think we'll slide into the final segment. That way we can let you get on with your day. And once again, I'll probably say it 18 million times. I really do appreciate you hopping on. It's been a real honor to sit across from you. But the final segment is the crude master final five, just five questions, long or short as you want to go, Ron. I'll just try and have a little bit of fun here at the end. Good.

So the first one, I know you've had, you know, you mentioned Muhammad Ali. You've had all these people. You've had the greats to sit across from. Is there one guy maybe past or present that you would love to sit down and have a chat from a fireside conversation to use your words? Well, I've always had a dream to interview Louis Lappell. the editor of Harper's Magazine and he wrote a book called Lights Camera Democracy. I almost had that happen with this in-conversation series. Lewis would be a fascinating chat for me.

That's a journalist. On the athletic side, if I was to pick an athlete whose brain I would really like to pick right now, you know what would be good now is Bobby Orr. Bobby Orr and I should sit down and that would kind of help to Swage a lot of what we've been through with grapes. because I know Bobby knows, you know, he was, he said he was hot at me. He didn't mean for that to get out. And he was, but it'd be Bobby. Bobby and I are, you know, we're different.

He doesn't drink, I drink. But, you know, there's a great respect there that I would give you that one. Staring at the books you have all sitting everywhere on your shelf. Obviously, reading is a passion. We figured that out. What is maybe, and I know one is hard to do, but maybe, But maybe we'll go this way. What is one book that you look back on as being very influential?

And then maybe what is one book you're currently reading? Well, from the journalist's point of view, that Lights Camera Democracy, Lewis H. LAPH. LAPHAM is the one. I would say Miriam Taves, a writer from Steinbeck, Manitoba, and her book, All My Punei Soros is one of my most important books. It's about mental health, suicide. But just the way she writes. Now, Miriam is an example of someone who could,

reach you without putting you on the defensive or putting you in a position where, oh, I can't listen to this. It makes me too uncomfortable. She's got a gift. Miriam Taves, and that's like Jonathan Taves, same spelling. She is fantastic. I have a lot of these books about women. Nula Ophuelan is a writer from Ireland who's gone now, wrote two books,

Are You Somebody and Almost There, Incredible. Rebecca Solnit wrote a book called Recollections of My Non-Existence. We'll teach you all you need to know about. feminism, again, not to have everybody fall off their horse. But I really, really appreciate when I get a book like recollections of my non-existence to teach me why I was so wrong to think that I knew. I'll definitely, I have the lights camera democracy sitting on the bedside table. I'd listen to you talk about a different interview. So I've actually started reading it. Anytime a guy such as yourself talks highly of a book like that or the other ones.

I think it, well, that's exactly what you want. You want something that's influenced the way you think. Because for one person, one book is going to do it. And for another person, another book's going to do it. And if you can find a few of those books, there's, there's. That book, Sean, sorry to interrupt, but that book is about him going to work for the, both the CIA and the White House and being given a press release and told to just stick to this release and realizing he could never be.

that guy. It's like my mother going into the convent and just couldn't stand some of the rules. He realized he had to have his own voice and brave and he did it. He ended up working for one of the New York dailies and then ended up running Harper's Magazine for decades. So it's a good story about what it is to be a journalist to be able to step back from the herd, I think for yourself. I think that's very good advice. Hockey players call it playing guilty. I'm not sure what us broadcasters talk about. But do you have a playing guilty story? where a night got away from you and the next day you had to fight through. Scotia, Bangkok, hockey day in Canada in Winkler.

So this is like training camp for the players. You train all summer and then they show up at training camp. And the first day they're so excited to see everybody. They go out and have too many. And then they got to do the bike and the O2 testing. For me, I was in Winkler and I was there for three. It's a dry town. I think you can somehow get booze now.

But back in the day, Winkler was dry. and so the fire guys from firefighters from morden brought us some booze but dawn didn't arrive until the Friday night the night before the show and the show goes on the air at uh would have gone on the air probably at 11 a.m in manitoba and then extends for 13 hours and grapes arrives on the Friday and we go to my hotel room and we drink beer and I drank I don't know what I drank but too many too many for a 13 hour broadcast on Saturday and I remember waking up about four hours after I'd gone to sleep and I went to the window and it was minus 45 and howling wind and my whole window in the hotel room was covered in frost and I took out my hotel key and I was scraping the frost off

to look outside and thought, oh my God, I'm going to be standing in that frigid cold weather for however many hours tomorrow and I don't feel very good. I feel like I drank one too many. What has become of you, Ron? That's my guilty story for sure. How about success in marriage? You've been married a lot of years now. How have you been able to balance both of that? Well, lucky again to have an extremely strong Kerry. You know, she's a, you know, you hope you don't marry your mother.

But I found a lot of the values in Carrie, the strength of her. She's a great organizer. She runs hockey teams. both in the summer and in the winter. Loves the game. That helps, obviously. We just love a lot of the same things. We love to travel.

We love to make a nice meal and have some drinks with one while barbecuing and maybe a glass of wine while eating dinner. Once in a while get carried away. But yeah, she's just a, you know, she's got her master's, I should say, in parks and rec. So she's committed herself. We have no children. We had bad luck with miscarriages.

And that's an interesting twist in my life too, right? Sean is a, you know, when you're not a parent, you don't understand some of that. You mentioned the bar fight. Well, the same goes for your kids, right? You would kill for your children. And so conversations about egalitarian approaches don't always cut it with a parent or someone in a bar with a friend. But, you know, in Kerry's case, she is really good on

on listening to the wisdom of these ideologies, these attempts to go beyond those sort of bare bones, base reactions. I think that's what's made our relationship click blessedly. Your final one, and this is a selfish one. I always look for, especially from guys of your level, what's the best piece of advice you can give anyone who's starting out in media or your line of work. Well, for sure, Wayne Barry was the guy that taught me that rule about 10 hours of prep.

Prep is huge. That gives you a little bit of confidence. It's like anything else when you go into something knowing you're well armed. That's a great feeling. I think, you know, to find yourself is to speak to the way you feel about things. And that's what you've done in this interview, Sean. You know, you were probably a bit sheepish to say, I can't stand what Trudeau's doing or I can't stand.

that Don was let go, but you gave yourself to the moment. And that's authenticity. You have to do that. You can't fear putting on a front for Ron because of what Ron might think. So you're already there. But for a younger broadcaster, it's to always speak one to one, not, hey, everybody, hi, Canada, or hello millions of viewers. And don't even think in those terms.

You're not doing it for a million. You're doing it for one person. And that one person has your sensibility, your politics. your humor, your ethics. That's the only way you'll be sincere. That's, that's, that's, that's a key. Well, thank you very much, sir, for hopping on. This has been, they say sometimes meeting your idols isn't what it's built up to be, but this has been an absolute pleasure. I've certainly enjoyed having you on for a little shy of two hours, but it's, it's been an absolute pleasure, and I wish you nothing but the best of luck and

the things to come. And I know we laugh, we didn't talk about hockey, but, uh, I certainly look forward to seeing you back on, you know, hopefully the Oilers going deep into a playoff run. Really appreciate it as well, Sean. Hey, folks, thanks again for joining us today. If you just stumble on the show and like what you hear, please click subscribe. Remember, every Monday and Wednesday a new guest will be sitting down to share their story. The Sean Newman podcast is available for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever else you find your podcast fix. Until next time.