Shaun Newman Podcast - #1022 - Daniel Turp

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Daniel Turp is a Canadian legal scholar and prominent Quebec sovereigntist. He is an emeritus and associate professor at the Université de Montréal’s Faculty of Law, where he has taught advanced constitutional law and public international law since 1982. A former Bloc Québécois MP for Beauharnois—Salaberry (1997–2000) and Parti Québécois MNA (2003–2008), Turp is a leading advocate for Quebec independence, arguing its legal basis under Canadian and international law. He also serves as president of the Québec Association of Constitutional Law and the Research Institute on the Self-Determination of Peoples and National Independence (IRAI).Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionBitcoin: www.bowvalleycu.com/en/personal/investing-wealth/bitcoin-gatewayEmail: [e-mail] Get your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500

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substack. Make sure to subscribe. Make sure to leave a review if you're enjoying the show, share with a friend. Now, let's get on to that tale of the tape. Today's guest is a former professor at the University of Montreal's Faculty of Law. He's a former Party-Cubequa MNA and a former Block Coqubaccair-M-P. I'm talking about Daniel Terp. So buckle up.

Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Daniel Terp. Thanks for hopping on. My great pleasure to be with you. And with your listeners from Alberta and everywhere else in the world, I guess. Yes, yes. All across Canada, Daniel.

And honestly, into the United States and elsewhere as well. Now, I've got to meet you just briefly. And I think for the audience, I'd just like you to give a little bit of background on yourself. You can go longer, as short as you want. And then we'll get into some things. Quebec related. Well, my pleasure to be with you. So my name, as you said,

and it pronounced very well as Daniel Turp. I was born in 1955 in Verdun, which is a tiny little municipality in Quebec, which is now a borough of Montreal. And I grew up in a family that was, you know, a middle class. And my parents wanted to be,

wanted to be well-educated. and I did long studies. I did even a doctorate from a French university. And I've been, you know, quite active in academic life, doing international and constitutional law. I was a professor for 40 years in my University of Montreal, in the law faculty. And but I got quite involved in politics because I was a professor, for 40 years in my University of Montreal, in the law faculty. because I was a member of the House of Commons for the Bloch Quebecua. For three years between 1997 and 2000, the Prime Minister of Canada was then Jean-Creatien.

My leader was Gilles du Cep. And then I went back to the university, but then was elected in the National Assembly in Quebec. Between 2003-2008, five years, Bernard Landry was my leader. Jean Charray was the Premier of Congress. Quebec then when I sat in the National Assembly and then I went back to the university to teach which is great you know when you teach a constitutional law and

you've been a member of a parliament that helps to be even a better professor of of law and I retired from from the university five years ago in in 2020 and I've always been you know a supporter of Quebec independence and and voted yes in two referendums in 1980 and 1995 and I still would vote yes and if there's a referendum to come I will and I've always been interested in what's happening in Alberta and then what's happening now because you know the independence movement obviously has grown and so you know and I love Alberta you know people think it may some Quebecers don't like Albert no I like Alberta I love Albert I love Albert And I have family in Alberta. And maybe one thing that might be funny for your listeners to know is that one day when I was in the House of Commons, someone said that I was Canada's favorite separatist because I guess I told people that, you know, I love Canada. I love Alberta.

And I want a different kind of relationship with Alberta and other provinces, a special relationship, even if Quebec becomes independent. So there you are. Well, I'm going to give you just my brief thought on Quebec, actually Canada in general. So I haven't, you know, like you go through your history of voting in, in the referendums. And like I was just a kid. I was born in 86. So like I remember being like, what's going on?

Like I couldn't remotely understand it. Be like my kids right now trying to understand Alberta independence would be my guess. And then, you know, I got a, you know, I got a. no older and I had kids and then I tuned into my first you can chuckle about this you know different ways of chuckling at each other but I tuned in Daniel to my first prime minister debate um 2019 I think and I was I forget who the leader of the Quebec it could be the same guy probably is the same guy and he was on stage federal politics and he said he didn't want to answer the question because he didn't want to be prime minister.

And I was like, I just hear that correctly? I'm like, what is going on right now? How is this a real country when you have somebody from, that's on a prime minister debate? These guys are running to be prime minister. And one of them is sitting there gone, yeah, I'm not going to answer that.

I don't really care. I'm not going to be prime minister and I don't want to be. And so I say that story because that was like an introduction of like, something is different, not only about Quebec, but about Canada as a whole. And so then, you know, you go through all these different iterations to where now Alberta is trying to assert independence. They're trying to get to a referendum.

And certainly when I was at the Freedom Convoy, I got to witness Quebec showing up. And I got to witness the two flags side by side and Quebecers shaking hands and hugging Albertans. It was a very surreal moment. So here I sit and I'm like, why is it that I'm watching? Quebec when by-election after by-election, a separatist party, and Alberta trying to make their own way, and we're not talking, and we're not even sharing or anything. And so I'm like, I feel like there's things to be discussed between the two provinces. And I by no means am a representative of Alberta. I just do a podcast here. But you have represented Quebec, and you have said that if we

got to another referendum, I'd vote yes again. So I go, tell me a little bit about Quebec and its history with trying to chart its own course. Well, it's a long story and it's well since 1759 when the Battle of the Plains of Abram where the British conquered the New France and Then New France didn't exist anymore and it became then the province of Quebec and then lower Canada and then was part of the province of Canada. Then Quebec again in 1867 and the quiet revolution in 1960 was but during all that time, during all that period there was always the idea that you know Quebec had to be distinct because it had its own language.

was French on a continent where there's a great majority of English speakers and it has developed its own culture. It has its own ways of doing things when it comes to the economy but also on social issues. And so there's always been this claim that because of that distinctiveness, the difference, even within Canada, Quebec should have great deal of autonomy and should be able to decide on its own. And because in the last, let's say since the Confederation in 1967, that that claim for more autonomy has always been frustrated by other parts of Canada, especially in Ottawa by Canadian leaders, even Quebec leader, like Pierre

and Gio Trudeau, you know, and even its His son, Justin Trudeau, who are so centralist that they say to Quebec, you know, you have enough powers. Stop complaining. Stop asking for more. And that's the story, I think. And, you know, some people have said because of that, that there's, you know, Quebec and Canada are really two different countries.

Some people said that two solitudes, but two countries. But, you know, what's really special is that, Quebec, like myself, there's some that are not like that, you know, some people like that don't like the rest of Canada and they're really very frustrated at what's been happening. But you know, Quebecers have always said to themselves that they're the first Canadians. In fact, they're the real first Canadians and then and then they probably want to continue to be Canadians in a way. that's why they voted no in 80 and 95. And, but you know, people like myself have always wanted,

and it started with René Les Vague, you know, the first leader of the Parts Quebecois who proposed that if Quebec became independent, it should have an association with Canada. It's called Sovereignty Association. And then even Monsieur Parisou and Monsieur Bouchard, the two leaders that led Quebec almost to independence in 1910. 1995 with a very close call. They also wanted to negotiate a special form of economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada.

So in a way, Quebec has always sought independence as a way of rethinking the relationship with other Canadians in a relationship which was deemed or wanted to be equal to equal. that was what was set in 1980, for example. So, you know, it's a great story in effect. And what's happening in Alberta doesn't surprise us at all, because if Canada, Anato doesn't want you to have more autonomy, and you want more autonomy, you want more powers, you won't have more freedom to decide on anything,

including natural resources, what you could do with your own natural resources. what's left to gain more autonomy, if not independence. So, you know, it's a bit the same kind of way of thinking the future. You don't want to give us more autonomy? Okay, we'll become independent. And then we will have that autonomy that we need, that we seek, that we want. And you can't tell us that we can't have that.

Our people can decide that. You're not going to decide for us. one of the things it's been interesting to watch since this independence movement started to move here in Alberta is how media, different parts of Canada, have framed anyone interested in an Alberta independence. You know, treasonous, that type of thing. It's curious, with Quebec, go back to whatever referendum you want it.

Was it the same thing back then? Did they call separatist treasonous and, I don't know, spoiled and just shut up your cry babies you have enough you mentioned enough power or enough autonomy are these the same playbooks and then on top of that if you fast forward to now do they say the same things or are they trying to take a different tact with with quebec now i i would think it's the same playbook and we'll see it again if we if we do hold and are able to hold a third referendum on independence you know when i was a a member of that House of Commons for the Block Quebecois and I'm sure it's not very different.

We were told that we shouldn't be there. You know, we shouldn't be there. It's like we're, it's treason. And, you know, we're even being paid to be members in a parliament. And at the same time, we, we promote independence in the Canadian parliament in the House of Commons. And it was often very unpleasant because we were seen as enemies. not as adversaries, enemies.

But we had been elected. I had been elected by the people in the block in 1994. What was it in 1994? You know, it had like 54 members. It was the official opposition of its majesty. And then, you know, people were still saying, you're treasonous. And when it came to referendums, people would come and they didn't say you couldn't decide.

You couldn't hold a referendum, which is somewhat different than in some countries, like in Spain where they prevented Catalonians to hold a referendum. But in Scotland, they were able to hold a referendum. But then they come and they say, oh, vote no, we like you, we love you. We're friends. We'll give you more powers. That's what Trudeau said in 1980. But then he adopted the Charter of Human Rights and the Constitution Act of 82 without Quebec's consent.

You know, what a great, you know, way to say to Quebecers, you voted no. So afterwards, we'll impose you the Constitution that you don't want, in fact. And then not only separatists, you know, no one wanted that 1982 constitution in Quebec. And then in 1995, we get this big, huge rally two days before the referendum. And again, we were told that other Canadians loved us and we shouldn't go. And then we vote no by this very narrow margin. And then what Christian does, and he has this plan B and he does all kinds of things. The reference in front of the Supreme Court, and he's not happy with the reference.

adopts the Clarity Act. So, you know, and what's going to happen next, we'll see. But we have to be very aware that they want to do anything to prevent Quebec to become the country. And they're probably the same thing with Alberta. And they'll, they'll, you know, let us think that they're they believe a democracy and they want to, to people to decide freely. Quebec and Alberta, but they all use these tactics that are very unfair. They know camp in 1995 spent millions and millions of dollars. And it breached our referendum act in Quebec, you know, the spirit of the act. It's terrible. And we don't even know even now 30 years later how much they spent and cheated in a way. So a lot of people say we didn't even lose the right. referendum in 1995 was stolen from us.

So Alberta, I have something to learn from what happened in Quebec in the past decades. That is what Albertans can learn from it, right? You've already been through two referendums. And so there's a lot of talk of, you know, can we get to a referendum? Are they going to allow us to get to a referendum? If we get to a referendum, can we actually have a fair referendum, right? All these different things. If you were talking to Albertans on, here's some things we learned.

What would you say to him? The first thing is to continue to insist that you have a right to decide your own future. The future of Albertans is in the hands of Albertans. They have a say and it's, I don't know how many, 3.5 or 4 million people that can vote out of the five. billion people that now, you know, populate Alberta, that that is important. And that you have a right to do so. You have a right to do so because the Supreme Court of Canada in the 1998 reference on secession of Quebec said that provinces have a right to pursue secession.

And if they vote yes, and there's all the issue of clarity of the question and clarity of the majority, well, the other partners of the Federation, have an obligation to negotiate. So that is the first and most important thing. And in Quebec, in 1980, when we lost a referendum, Monsieur Levesque, who was the leader of the Barzky, be requested, we might have lost the referendum, but we won the right to decide. Our right to self-determination is now it exists. And you could, it's not only one time, you can, you can vote in a referendum independent. We voted to. twice and there could be a third time so that I would say is the most important

thing to say continue to say and Saskatchewan can say that and British Columbia could say that which also means that you know there's the idea that this federation is not necessarily the only way to live in Canada because you could put into question the existence of the Federation you can become a country yourself if you want. And self-determination also means that you could decide to have a union with other Western provinces that create a union of provinces in Western Canada or even decide to become part of the United States. Self-determination is about determining one's political status. It's not only independence. So that's the first thing. You want to have other things?

Certainly. Honestly, Daniel, If you have wisdom to share with Albertans, I think it would be important. And the fact that, you know, you've been through two, that you've ran for not only, or you've been a part of not only the federal government, but the provincial government, I think is very interesting. So if you have other thoughts for Albertans, by all means. Wow. The other thing is it's Monsieur Parisou, you know, Monsieur Parizot, you know,

Monsieur Parizu, who almost led us to independent, who was the premier or the prime minister of Quebec, like we call him here, or we call our prime ministers. once he told me that you have to get ready for dirty tricks, dirty tricks, because that's what we had to live through in 1980 and 1995. You know, our opponents, those who want to convince people to vote, no, they're ready to do anything. They're ready to use, you know, scare tactics. Tell even Alberta, who has the very,

you know highest GDP in the world that oh you can't do that you you can't do that you can't afford independence you just you know whereas Alberta would be one of the richest countries in the world they're richer than Quebec and and so you have to get ready to deal with those arguments that people will will use even if they're so untrue they're so excessive and it's it's about fear and fear not only to be economically in a difficult situation, but fear on social services, on health care, on the, I don't know what else. Everything becomes about fear in the no camp when you don't want a province to leave. The other thing is money, is money. Because, you know, you have your rules.

People have, we have some very clear rules in Quebec on how much can be spent in a referendum campaign. And the no and yes camps can spend the equal amount of money and it doesn't have to come from corporations or unions. It only has to come from individuals in Quebec. But in 1995, it was so terrible, the amount of money that the No Camp spent and they use all kinds of tactics making contracts in Ontario suggesting that so those expenses don't count. They should be counted. And so there's that that has to be taken into account and having or even trying to get foreign leaders to get involved. in the campaign and saying that you know coveck shouldn't separate to try to get Clinton as he then was to say that no Canada should stay united and and

having some some foreign interference you know in a campaign that's dangerous on the other hand you know when the French leaders say yes yeah we agree that independence is something that should happen well maybe that's some kind of of interference as well so you have to be careful also to abide by the same rules so those are the two things i would i would you know try to take into account when it comes to the referendum on independent that could be helped help in alberta but there's there's means i could talk to you about what i've suggested to to the part quebecua if there's another referendum for example there should be international observers. There should be people from all parts of the world that come and see,

you know, what's happening? Is it fair? Are some people, you know, really trying to cheat? And so that would be a means of trying to get a referendum be fair. And there's all kinds of of referendums in the world that have been observed by international people, experts, by the United Nations, or by the Council of Europe, and even the organization of American states. So it says that that's something you should keep in mind. And one of the things that, you know, I've recommended that might be useful also, because in 1995, the other way of cheating on the part of the NoCamp or the federal government, in fact,

was they granted the accelerating the granting of citizenship. So recent, really newly arrived immigrants could vote in the referendum. And they gave thousands of citizenship just before the referendum. People that just had arrived or just and didn't really know, but they were almost told it was a letter of Sergio Marquis to the new Canadians that had become Canadians like a month before the referendum that you know you've been given granted citizenship and now you should maybe remember that when it's going to come time to vote and that Canada should like remain united so that's another thing so in quebec we're now having the idea

we're juggling with the idea creating a Quebec nationality you know a select citizenship and to vote in the referendum you would not only need a Canadian citizenship but the Quebec citizenship and you couldn't be granted you know the good the day before the referendum and citizenship of Canada granted one day before the referendum wouldn't allow you to vote so we're looking into that kind of measure to to try to prevent what happened in 1995 where a lot of people were granted citizenship know just before the reference So they could vote no.

So that could have happened to Alberta as well. Well, I think at this point, I'm like, it's, it's like, what am I trying to say here? It's like, if you've been staring at Canadian politics for 20 years, you could see the problems. And then you have, Sean comes walking. He's like, what is going on? Well, let's try this. And he's like, yeah, this is what they're going to do there. Let's do that.

This is what they're going to do there. So when I look at Quebec and yourself, I was just like, oh, this is fascinating. Because to me, you've already been through it. You've already seen the dirty tricks. You go, are they going to do the dirty tricks? Daniel, you don't even have to go, are they? You're going to go, yes, they are. We're already seeing it play out.

They don't want you to go. So you're going to resort to name calling. And then if actual referendum actually happens, there will be other things come. And that's why I was curious about having this conversation. Because I'm watching Quebec with all the by-election wins by a separatist party. I'm like, oh, this is very interesting. Here comes Quebec again. and if they had their way,

this would be the third time you get a referendum on leaving. And you go, is third time the charm? I have no idea. I'll be very curious your thoughts on that. But maybe I'll go back. Do Quebecers sit there and go, is anybody else going to wake up to the fact

there's problems here in Canada? And finally, Alberta and Albertans have had enough and there's this independence push. And it's like, it's about freaking time, Alberta. Or is that not a thing? Yes, it is. And I'm one of them. And I'm one of them.

You know, I even sometimes say to my friends, okay, let's Albertans be first, you know. And then, you know, maybe Quebecers will be convinced that if Alberta, you know, votes for independence, well, we'll vote for independents in Quebec at the third time. Or maybe we will, we will, and then Albertans will be influenced in, and realize that, you know, people that don't listen, don't hear the claims, the problems they've caused with all kinds of policies, whether it's the energy policy for Alberta or the linguistic policies in Ottawa or all kinds of things. They decide when we have a few members of

Parliament. You know, Alberta has 37 members out of the 330. which is 10% Quebecers have 25% and you know that means a lot of people that are not the Albertans or Quebecers are making decisions for ourselves and and you know so yes it is it is something that we have to to think about that at one point one of the people whether it's the Quebec people or the people of Alberta will decide this is enough enough is enough and that the same same time to be constructive, you know, we've always, as I told you earlier, we've always, you know, wanted some kind of different relationship with the rest of Canada and an association or a partnership.

But there's, you know, there's some people like even Jill Ducep and myself and others that say, okay, let's reconstruct, rebuild, reconfigure this Canada in making it some kind of. kind of Canadian Union, a bit like the European Union, where there's a lot of diversity. There's 27 member states, but they still work together around the same table. They make decisions. They even have a European Parliament. So let's rethink Canada in terms of a union of different sovereign states. And among those states, they'd be Alberta, they'd be Quebec, Ontario will probably want to become a state.

maybe British Columbia, the maritimes could get together. And let's rethink the whole thing. So there might be things that we can continue to decide at common, you know, defense, maybe some issues of foreign relations. Although Quebec would want to have this special relationship in some international organizations like La Francophony or UNESCO because of culture. And let's maybe think in different terms. outside the box, you know, not Canada as it had been conceived in 1867 with a central government that's, you know, that wants more and more powers.

That's the nature of what has happening. You know, the federal government wants more powers. It has the spending power. It abuses of this spending power. It imposed conditions on provinces on what they want to do in all. kinds of areas like health and and culture in Quebec. So, you know, I just hope that Quebec is first, but I won't mind if Alberta's first when it comes to independence. With your background and referendums, when you see Daniel Smith come out with the nine questions and that there's going to be a referendum on those, do you sit there and go that is about to undermine the entire independence question? Or do you go, don't be so sure on that? That's a good question, a tough question.

I guess, you know, it's because I'm not an Albertan, they don't follow the day-to-day debate and can sense what Albertans would do if there were nine questions. I guess I can't give you an answer. that might be satisfactory. At the same time, you know, it's, independence is so important. It's about your future that it's not,

it's not about one special policy or one special matter that in Quebec, we decided that, you know, it should be the only question on the ballot. And it happened twice and there was a, it was great debate in Quebec, you know, and I always, you know, very proud to say that in 1980, there's more than 80% of people that went to vote. And that was a lot of people. We don't see that anymore. In 1995, there were 95%.

Imagine 95% of Quebecers voted. I always like to tell this story where I was, you know, going around in the in the voting areas in Quebec on October 30th, 1995. And Monsieur Bouchard was an advisor to Lucien Bouchard then, the chair of the political committee of the Block Quebecuan. Monsieur Bouchard had sent me to see if it was going well. People were voting. There were no irregularities in the voting and the polling station.

And at 6 o'clock one night, that night, I go to this polling station. And there's no one in line waiting to get in the polling station. So I go in the polling station and there's no one in front of the the Scrutator and the people that that had the boxes where you could vote and I say what's happening here? There's no one that wants to vote. No one's no one's here and so the people show me the list and say to me everyone has voted 100% of the people in this voting show the voting station have voted which meant a lot.

It was important. The issue was so important that everyone was to vote. How did Quebec make it important? Because one of the things I see in Alberta is there's apathy. There's, you know, at times a crazy amount of engagement, and at times people can't be bothered. What did Quebec do to get, you know, you're talking about, have you have you i'm sure there are writings i'm sure there are but i can't think annie where

a hundred percent voter turnout happened like to me that's an insane statement so what was it that quebec was doing that allowed open debate discussion i don't know what what it is but obviously they were doing something right because to get that much voter turnout you're talking 95 I don't know, you've been around politics all your life. 95% is an insane number. I think it's great, but like in our world today, you don't get anywhere near that. Well, you know, Quebecers have always voted in a great number because, you know, a lot of the elections are about its future and it's about independence or staying in Canada. even there's not a there's no referendum in sight.

I guess it's because it's an issue that is so important to decide on your own to be more autonomy that when there's a referendum and when the emphasis on our this issue, people are concerned. People are empowered in a way. They're empowered. They want to be part of the decision. because this is all about decision-making and making by the people. And I must think that it could happen in Alberta as well. Because, you know, in a referendum, there's a campaign, and it's not only political parties that get involved,

it's organizations of the civil society. It's interesting, in the 1995 referendum, in Quebec, we had the, firefighters for sovereignty. We even have the nuns for sovereignty. We had the lawyers for sovereignty. We had the economists for sovereignty. They didn't deal with political parties. They became a driving force and they were going to try to convince other nuns or other

firefighters to vote yes. And the young people, you know, what was fascinating, especially in 1995. But it happened in Scotland. as well when they had the referendum young people got really involved and they got involved in the independence camp in the yes camp so you know when a decision is so important people tend to want to be part of the decision to vote and i wouldn't be surprised that it would happen in alberta although there's so much frustration we had frustration we still have frustration with ottawa And you know, the federal leaders, they come and they say all these terrible things about why we shouldn't do or even conceive.

Alberta or Quebec as an independent that, you know, people come and say, you're not going to tell me what I need to do, you know, I want to decide and I'll vote yes. Or even if I won't know, you don't tell me, you know, how I should vote. You should, you know, take care of your own business in Ottawa, Ontario or, or, you, in Prince Edward Island. But you see, I would be optimistic if I was in Albertan. And maybe that leads to the conclusion that, you know, there might, and there should maybe only be one question on the ballot if it's about independence

and not, you know, eight other questions. You guys have your provincial election this fall or October. what's your sense on like I just I don't know recognize a bit of patterns right you see a by-election land you see another one you see another one you're like holy crap so it looks like separatist party is going to crush it that's just an alberton looking over yonder do you get the same sense or is that a little too simplistic for quebec politics well it's it's you have to you know I'm a bit concerned now because the last poll the last Although the party Quebecois won the four last by-election, it has now seven members in the National Assembly.

It only had three. The party had the less, you know, members of the National Assembly. Even Quebec Solidé, which is another sovereignty, sovereignty party, but more left wing, had more members of the National Assembly. The last polls show that, you know, it's the advance of the Parts Quebecois is lower than it was in the past months. You know, the last poll says 31 for the Liberal Party. But if the leader of the KAC was Christine Frechette, you know, who is probably to become the leader of the KACCACC, because Legault says he wants to resign and she's probably going to become the prime minister, the Premier of Quebec. Well, if she's the leader, then the advance of the

Quebec, the lead of the Pakistan gets much bigger 3227. So but you know what's interesting is that in Quebec politics, the liberal parties votes are concentrated in Montreal. So even if you have a narrow margin, or even if you don't have a higher percentage you still win the election because you will a number of seats that's higher than the other party because you win all the seats in quebec in rural Quebec in other areas except in Montreal so what what I think could happen or what I hope will happen is that you know these numbers will change the PQ will win we have a majority in parliament It could be a tight race.

It could have a minority in parliament, which would make it more difficult to go ahead with a referendum, because the question has to be adopted by the National Assembly. And if you don't have a majority, you couldn't adopt a question and hold a referendum on that question. But I'm a bit optimistic because there's a new leader for the Liberal Party. We don't know what he really stands for. and can he really try to and will he beat the pq in the rural areas and other regions in Quebec i don't think so so i i believe the patis quebecua will win the next election on october fifth we'll have a new government which will be led by paul st pierre plumondon

who's kind of a brilliant guy and he went to alberta you know he came to alberta and he He met a lot of people from the Alberta independence movement and he's open to having a dialogue and conversation with Albertans. Maybe one day he's also the view that we should have some kind of new union. And maybe Quebec and Alberta could be the leaders in trying to rethink the way provinces in Canada, which could become independent countries on their own. could, you know, do things together. If they win, I'm talking about Quebec politics here,

I find with a lot of politicians, they'll say one thing and then they get elected and they kind of do something different, right? What is it, is that possible in Quebec where if you elect a separatist party and they don't come forward with a referendum, is that possible? Or you're like, no, that doesn't happen in Quebec.

If they're running on, we're going to have a referendum and they win, they better put a referendum in because Quebecers won't have it. It depends on the leaders of the best. So when Monsieur Levesque was elected in 1976 on the promise to hold a referendum, he did abide by his promise. So there was an election, the referendum on May 20th, 1980. So, so, you know, you have won a first example of if you promise a referendum, you're going to hold it. And Monsieur Leveque was well aware in 1980 that he wouldn't win the referendum.

Polls showed that we had 40% of support and it didn't really include. significantly after he was elected until May the 20th, 1980. But then he said, as I mentioned, well, we might have not won the referendum, but we won the right to decide on our own, you know. And he said, if I understood you, it's going to be next time. If you've got got it's for the procheon. And everyone knows this quote because it says, yeah, well, it's not over, even If we lost, we might want to again try to become independent.

And when Monsieur Parisou was elected in 1994, after the failure of Meach, Charlottetown, that helped a lot to have the bloc elect 54 MPs in 1993, and then the PQ have a majority in Parliament in 1993. He said, I'll do a referendum in one year's time. And he did. So he did. And Paul Saint-Pierre-Plamondon, the actual leader of the person, was a bit of that kind of leader.

He says, you know, if you elect me, I'm going to hold a referendum. And that's why I want you to elect me. And I want to be very honest with you. If you elect me, you have to expect there would be a referendum. Now there's been a lot of talk about the timing of the referendum. You know, Monsieur Leveque did it four years after he was elected. Mr. Parizu did it one year. Sometimes people say, well, you know, if you wait too long,

you'll adopt all kinds of laws and policies that won't make people very happy and they'll vote no because they're unhappy about the government, not about the idea of become independent or even staying in Canada. So Paul Saint-Pierrepanron in the last months or so, he hasn't been so explicit on when the referendum would be hold. Is it at the beginning of Landik like Monsieur Parisou at the end? Then the issue of Donald Trump comes out, you know, maybe we'll hold a referendum only when Mr. Trump is not the president of the U.S.

anymore because some people are worried about what Trump has done and will be doing. So that's interesting to me. Yeah. Because you know on this side, it's complete inverse. Yeah. People are like, we need to hold a referendum while Donald. Trump is in. Because Donald Trump is the wild card of like if Albertans were to vote for independence, they fully believed Donald Trump would say, we recognize you. And we want what you got

and we'll work with you. Yeah. Why does Quebec look at Trump the opposite way? Well, you know, because Quebec is more of a social democratic country. It's, it's, Quebec has always been, you know, center left oriented or center rather than right and obviously mr mr. Trump is more to the right and the people you know are a bit worried about that there's a white the more right wing party and tendency in Quebec now with the conservative party in Quebec we now have a conserved party in Quebec very different from the Conservative Party of Canada Eric Hume is its leader And so, but, you know, people don't believe that Trump would be, you know, open to Quebec independence, not as much as he might be for Alberta independence.

So, so he might come out and say, no, no, we don't want Quebec to be independent. And but if he said so, and you don't know, he sometimes has views that vary, you know, maybe then people, Monsieur St. Pierre Lamondon will say, okay, let's have a referendum. And Trump might be, you know, at that at some point, say, well, yeah, that's a good idea that Quebec become independence. and then Quebec, and then there's be Alberta, and then maybe he'll say, well, we're almost ready for the Canada as being the 51st state. Is that what Quebec? I'm always curious what different provinces think of the 51st state idea, right? Or just Donald Trump's talking about, I'm going to walk into Greenland, I'm going to take it, or I'm going to take Cuba. You know, they go into Venezuela and they take Maduro.

And I'm just kind of, you know, like, does that enter the conference? conversation around the water cooler Ode East. Oh, yeah. I assume it does. A lot, a lot. And, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if you know that, but in Quebec, we had for many, many years a party that was called the Quebec 51st state.

It's a small party that never had, you know, never had anyone elected and didn't have a lot of votes. It doesn't exist anymore. Some people say, well, maybe they'll recreate. create that 51st state party for Quebec. And in our history, Louis Joseph Papineau, who was a very, very important figure in our Quebec politics, and he was the leader of the rebellion in 1837,

and he had to flee to the United States and then to France. When he came back, and he sat again in the Parliament of the province of Canada, At the end of his tenure, he was favorable to Quebec becoming part of the United States, the annexion. And because he wanted Quebec to be part of a more democratic country. And Canada wasn't democratic, we didn't even have responsible government. So it comes through the history of Quebec. that some people were not totally, you know,

against the idea of being a part of the United States. It's becoming, you know, a state of the United States. And then the issue is, well, we keep our language and our culture. You look what happened to Louisiana. They don't talk a lot of French in Louisiana anymore. But it does. It's part of our history. But, you know, we'll see what happens.

You never know with Donald Trump, you know. Maybe one day he'll say like the General de Gaul, you know, in 1960. Maybe he'll say, Vive Leuque Leib. Or maybe he'll say Vive L'Alberta Lid before he says it for Quebec. I find Quebec very fascinating for a lot of different reasons. Even in talking, you know, you talk about, it's word choice. I find it very interesting. Prime Minister.

instead of premier. Country instead of province. Nation, all these different things. Is that something that's always been there? Or is that word choice became something of like, we have to define ourselves. We have to teach our children that we define ourselves differently. Is that something that's been there for, you know,

like the thing about Quebec over Alberta is history. You have more of it. You just do. 1905, but you know, it's true. Quebec is maybe, the 1608 would clue the city of Quebec. And even if Albertans would argue with me on it and say we have a longer history in that, so be it.

I'm just saying that Quebec, you go back, what do we all learn in upper, lower Canada, all the different things, right? You can see the history. I've been through Quebec once. And when I went through it, you can just, you can feel it. You can just look around and like, man, there's some history here, right? So the word choice, is that something that's always been there? Or is that something that after the referendums, before the referendums, I don't know, that all of a sudden we have to define ourselves differently.

If we're going to act like our citizens are going to decide at some point that we should leave, they need to look at them, you know, because like, calling yourself, having a prime minister seems foreign on this end. Saying it's a country seems foreign on this end because it's a province. And this became the moral dilemma that I went through, and I think a lot of people go through. my Alberta first? Oh, I want to say I'm Canada first, but man, I don't know. And then you have to have that discussion. And you've got to kind of unwind it. Well, if you have always said, we have a prime minister, we're a country, we have our own values,

we're protecting our culture, different things. You can see how that probably instills itself in a population. But I'm curious, has that always been that way? It's always been that way. It's always been that. The wording has always been there, you know, nation. And the identity issue, you know, how you call yourselves, you know, in 1759, you know, when after the Battle of Plains of Abram, you know, the New France didn't exist anymore.

It was called Quebec, you know, when the, when the, when the, it came to decide how we'd call, the new British colony in Canada. But then it's interesting because then the Canadians, today's Quebecers or their ancestors, call themselves Canadians. And then because there was a flow of English-speaking immigrants and even the loyalists that came from the United States after American independence,

well, the Canadians become French Canadians, French Canadians. And then in the 60s, in the 1960s, then French Canadians became Quebecers, Quebecers from Quebecua in French. There's been, you know, an evolution and language in the way you call yourself. And you know what's interesting? You could look at polls and I guess there's also polls that apply to Alberta. When you ask Quebecers, are the Quebecers first or Canadians first? Are there, Are they only Quebecers? Are there only Canadians? There's a great majority of Quebecers that say, I'm Quebec first. There's a lot that say, I'm Quebecer and Canadians.

And there's some who say I'm only Canadian, especially the people of the English minority in Quebec. They say they're Canadians only or Canadians first. So I'd be interested to see what the polling says today in Alberta. And that has increased the number of people that say they're Quebec. only or Quebecers first has increased in the past years. When it comes to defining Quebec as a province or a country, you know what's interesting? Now it's a state. Even in our legislation, we call Quebec a state, a bit like in United States, where the members of the Federation are states and are not provinces.

and because states makes you closer to a sovereign state. So that's interesting how the vocabulary has evolved. A nation is something that has a lot to do, I guess, with being a different nation when it comes to language, culture, something. What is national is about the nation, and the nation in Quebec is linked to language culture. But at the same time, you know, that issue is, you know, who's part of the nation in Quebec?

And for me and for so many others, it's not only the French-speaking people, you know. The nation is made of maybe people that have ancestors in France, but maybe English-speaking Quebecers, people that have immigrated from Italy, from Greece, and recently, more recently from Arab countries. So for me, everyone is part of that nation, even English-speaking Quebecers, although you could also say they're a national minority. And then there's the idea in Quebec, and that's well accepted that the first nations and the Inuit are not part of the Quebec nation. They're distinct nations. And in Quebec, we've adopted under René lait, that's 40 years ago or maybe even more, that. in the genious peoples are nations,

and that we have to recognize their autonomy and their language, their culture. So you see, the vocabulary has evolved and there's always questions about the vocabulary, what's legitimate or not. In Canada, yeah, some people don't like that. We call ourselves a nation because Canada's a nation. There's only one nation in Canada,

maybe except for the... Well, I would say, I would say that a younger Sean would have said that. But as I get older and I mature and I certainly have more and more conversations, I start to look at Quebec and go, there's some interesting things that you do that I think Alberta could learn from. Right. We're different in a lot of the ways we probably look at the world or culture, right?

I mean, obviously French speaking, English speaking and different things that way. But overall, when it comes to the relationship that one has with Ottawa in Confederation, I think there's a lot of similarities there. And, well, I just think we should be talking more, right? I just think there should be more lines of communication built between the two because how can you, you know, when you come back to like, well, you mentioned, I'd be curious how Alberta is. Well, I can fully say a year ago, maybe two years ago, this was a quiet conversation. and I was kind of like, I don't know, this kind of,

and then the more it comes into the public realm and the more people start talking about it, the more people start arguing about it. It's like, well, that's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about that, right? Because we're not talking about it. Now we're talking about it a lot. And the more it gets talked about,

the more things that, well, I don't know if I like that. Or, ooh, I kind of do like that. And once again, if it isn't in the public discourse, how can you possibly envision a future? where you're talking about Alberta being its own country. I mean, that seems like a foreign idea when you're Canada first

and Alberta is just a province and you can't even get your mind around that. What's happened in the last year is a lot of people have been talking about it, right? Whether it's 30% or 40% that's a heck of a lot more than like 3% between closed doors. There's a lot of people talking about it now.

And when I look at Quebec, that's what I see. I just see like this group of people I may not agree with them on everything, but man, do I respect them for standing up in front of all a can and going, I don't want to be prime minister. I'm done with this. I actually just want to say a few things for Quebec,

and then I want to go back and worry about my people. I'm like, well, that's interesting, right? That's only six years ago, seven years ago. I was like, what is going on? Now I'm like, I wouldn't mind an interview on that guy. Well, I totally agree with you, Sean. There's a need to talk. A real democracy is about talking.

It's about deliberation. So when you talk and talk and talk and let the people talk and have a real conversation at the end of the conversation, and even when you take a decision that might not be the decision you like, you've talked. You've listened to everyone. And sometimes when you've talked and you win, you're very happy. And you're happy when people say, okay, I'm not agree. I don't agree. But I was able to talk.

I was able to, you know, say what I wanted to say. And I accept your decision. And the next time, it's the other way around. I've talked. I've talked. I've talked. I've talked. I'll let you talk.

But this time I won. And then I'm happy. Then I win. You don't win all the time, but you win. And so when there's been a real, very. democratic debate because people were opening to talking and to listening to others, you know, it's very good for democracy. And that's what I guess has happened in Quebec a lot. You know, I have several friends that are, you know, against independence, but they respect me. They, they,

they know who I am. They don't say, oh, why are you for independence? You speak English. You know, why are you you speak english and you're an open-minded person and why should you be for independence? well you know i i made up my mind some time ago and you know i'd like you to respect that i'm not an enemy i'm an opponent and i respect you because you want to to quebec state in canada and i respect that too and then let's listen to each other and agree at the end to disagree but then then there'll be a vote and you'll vote and so that's why for example in alberta recently when And I heard some people say about Daniel Smith and others that were traitors because they wanted to hold a referendum. And she said, hey, one moment there.

This is about democracy. And Albertans, you know, should be able to vote. And I respect to people that are for that view of that view. So, you know, that was very good, very healthy on her part. And, you know, that's what has been happening. in Quebec because at one point people just have to deal with a lot of intelligent people, different people. At one point, they say, yeah, Quebec should be independent. So we're not all crazy people, you know, that the, so you know, I think you're right. There's a need to talk.

And there's a need to talk with between Quebecers and Albertans because as you say, we have so much in common. And it's not because we have, uh, everything in common and that we disagree on issues like for example production of oil and the exportation of oil and building you know pipelines throughout Canada that we can't talk we shouldn't talk and at one point if we decide to continue to have a future together in some kind of different union like the Europeans we'd realize that we'd probably be more respectful of each other and we wouldn't have this big guy, you know, in Ottawa saying what's good for us. In Europe, that's how it works, you know. And there's 27 countries and some are right wings, some are left wings,

some are in the center. They're together in a European Parliament and a European Commission. So, you know, we, I think we should seriously envisage of talking about that kind of new way of, you know, being together. Appreciate you doing this. You know, I got to give a shout to Ben because I was like, I literally just want to talk to somebody to Quebec. I see the by-elections going, you know, and you're like, this is, this is interesting. All we hear on this side, I hear very little about Quebec and the by-elections whenever,

I have to go search it out. What I hear on this end is what you brought up with Daniel Smith, and I agree with you 100%. Her stepping in and going, wait a second, I will not demonize these people for having thoughts. And just because you don't agree with them, does it be? mean that we're going to call them traders and all these different things. I did find it funny after she did that. Then they started rally against Daniel Smith. Well, Daniel Smith is just standing up for all the separatists now and all the things are saying. You're like, man, you can't win

with our media and the way it's covering things. Either way, though, I really appreciate you coming on and doing this, Daniel, because I, I'm trying my best to bridge a gap that seems to be manufactured that we're not supposed to talk to one another when I go well I understand the language barrier I understand that full stop but at the same token I'm like there's there's a lot of similarities there's a lot of things to be learned from what Quebec has gone through and continues to go through and I guess my final question would be if Quebec gets to a third referendum do you think three is the lucky charm or do you think it'll be a battle a fight just like the first two battle the fight like the first two but the yes camp will win it's going to be the the the third and final

i think uh occasion to decide to have a country and and it's it's it's it's important that it becomes a country and i'm optimistic although even polls say now we're down to 30 percent although we were 39% but in 1995 what's interesting and that's why some people like myself are optimistic a few months before the referendum you know the poll said we had 34% of of of of support and then i remember stephan dion who was a minister then are you crazy you want to hold a referendum and so in the polls well on the october 30th 99 was 49.52 percent and if there hadn't been been cheating and the thing like we we would have won you know it's it's obvious so I'm pretty optimistic and this will lead to to an interesting times in the history of Canada and I

that's interesting because you know what do they say right now maybe you get 30% and me and me and Pauls don't get along because I'm just like how on earth can you possibly begin to tell me what Albertans are thinking you you take this random and then you publish it like this is fact. I'm not saying there isn't place for for polls and everything else. But what you just told me, it's like, you know, they're saying we're down to 30 now. And I'm like, okay, but you won four by-elections in a row. To me, that's proof in the pudding. What are we talking about here? Now, I don't know Quebec politics inside and out. I just see a trend and I go, four in a row. One, okay, one, two, four in a row? That shows you a signal, doesn't it?

And then they go, oh, you only got this much. It's like, well, if it wasn't that big a deal, they wouldn't be demonizing it as much as they are. So they obviously know there's something there and they're worried. And when I come back to Alberta, you know, I don't know. Is it 30%? I don't know. But you just told me if you were to go back and do it again,

international observers would be a smart choice to make sure they don't do any funny business so that you can know for sure that when they say it was 49.5%, I'm like, really? It was 49.5%. Because that's awfully, that doesn't even, I don't even know, is that a hair? Like, I mean, that is razor thin regardless. Daniel, I appreciate you doing this and hopping on and having this discussion.

Hopefully it's not the only time we do this. But thanks for, thanks for hopping on and sharing a bit of a little bit of Quebec history and maybe a little bit of Quebec wisdom. It was my pleasure, Sean.