Shaun Newman Podcast - #1058 - Dr. Charles Cornish-Dale

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Dr. Charles Cornish-Dale, better known by his online pseudonym Raw Egg Nationalist, is a British historian, author, and cultural commentator. He holds a PhD from Oxford University, where his research focused on late medieval religious history. He gained prominence as an influential voice on X/Twitter advocating “raw egg nationalism” — a provocative blend of extreme physical fitness (centered on raw eggs and natural nutrition), traditional masculinity, anti-corporate food industry critique, and resistance to what he sees as the deliberate decline of male vitality through endocrine disruptors, ultraprocessed foods, and liberal modernity. A prolific writer, he has authored books such as Raw Egg Nationalism in Theory and Practice, The Eggs Benedict Option, and The Last Men: Liberalism and the Death of Masculinity, and serves as editor of Man’s World magazine. Watch the Cornerstone Forum 26’https://shaunnewmanpodcast.substack.com/Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionBitcoin: www.bowvalleycu.com/en/personal/investing-wealth/bitcoin-gatewayEmail: [e-mail] Expat MoneyExpatmoney.com/SNPGet your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500

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Make sure to leave a review. And if you're enjoying the show, make sure to share it with a friend, folks. All right, let's get on to that tale of the tape. Today's guest is a British historian, author, cultural commentator, and online personality, best known by a pseudonym raw egg nationalist. I'm talking about Dr. Charles Cornishdale. So buckle up, here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today.

I'm joined by Dr. Charles Cornishdale. Charles, thanks for hopping on. It's a pleasure, Sean. Thank you. Now, first time you're on the show, you've got to give us a little bit of your back. story. I assume a few people have stumbled into you on X under the raw egg nationalist. But in case they haven't, let's just start with a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure. So I rose to prominence pseudonymously as the raw egg nationalist posting about health and fitness, but also the

politics of health and fitness. I was in Tucker Carlson documentary in 2022 called The End of Men, which was about testosterone and decline and the social and political implications of testosterone decline. One of the main people in that documentary was RFK Jr., who is now, of course, Secretary of Health and Human Services in the US. I was basically the other main guy in the documentary, and it kind of focused on my kind of health and nutritional advice and routine and all this kind of stuff. So that's really why I blew up after that. That was 2022. I've written a number of different books. I wrote a raw egg cookbook called raw egg nationalism. That was kind of the beginning of it all. Then the eggs Benedict option and now my latest book, which is the last

men, liberalism and the death of masculinity. I now write under my own name as well as Royce nationalist. I write for the spectator, the critic, various kind of quite mainstream publications as well as still being very active on Twitter and on substack. Well, before I get, start firing some questions off, you showed your book. If people wanted to pick it up, I assume Amazon, but if there's other places where they can go, let us know. Yeah, so it's, yeah, mainly Amazon. So it's in hardback, Kindle and audio book format.

You can get it from Amazon. You can also get it from the publisher direct. That's Skyhorse. I think skyhorsepublishing.com. But yeah, I mean, Amazon is, yes, to go to. And it's available in stores as well or should be. Now, before you come to prominence, like, I'm just kind of curious. Like, before you ever, you know, go down the raw egg nationalist, I mean, what were you doing before then?

Like, how do you slide into this, you know, where you're on a Tucker Carlson documentary? I'm just kind of curious, you know, like, because I follow your X feed and I chuckle at some of the things you post, some of the things. I'm like, oh, that's a thought. Regardless, I've been wondering, I'm like, how on earth does this guy get his start? Like, where did you come from? Yeah, I mean, I sometimes wonder how I've ended up doing what I'm doing. So, I mean, I was basically kind of on the route to being an academic. So Cambridge, then at Oxford, historian, anthropologist.

I did a PhD at Oxford in medieval history, writing about the Reformation, so about, you know, religious history. Christianity and I've worked in and out of publishing as well, the kind of literary industry. But yeah, I mean, it's a strange thing. But, you know, I've been involved in health and fitness. I was a sportsman as a young man and I taught martial arts in my late teens. So I've always been interested in health and fitness. But really, it's only sort of maybe in the last eight or nine years that I started really to think about the politics of how. and fitness, which is, you know, one of the main things that I talk about now. I was very inspired by a book called Bronze Age Mindset by another pseudonymous or anonymous Twitter post are called

Bronze Age Pervert, who also actually happens to be like an academic or somebody who was on the path of being an academic PhD from Yale. So, so yeah, I mean, it's still a little bit of a mystery to me actually how I've ended up doing this, but it does. broadly fit within my kind of intellectual trajectory and also my kind of athletic physical trajectory as well well when you look at you know being a health enthusiast when you were looking back right you basically just said oh i basically got my phd in history right like i think that's what you're saying did you start to see similar things happen in the past with health and fitness or or not Well, I mean, it wasn't so much when I was actually doing my academic studies that I was really sort of things like that were popping up.

But, I mean, there is an important historical dimension to my work. So, for example, you know, in my last book, the Eggs Benedict option, I talk about this plan for a global plant-based diet. You know, that's the, that's supposedly the model for the future, the future of food. You know, we have to abandon animal products, meat, dairy, eggs, you know, because it's too polluting animal agriculture. And also it's supposedly unhealthy. And what we need is we need plant-based diets, which are kinder to the environment and more equitable. You know, we can feed everybody on planet Earth, et cetera. And what's interesting actually about that, and one of the things I go into in the book is that actually, you know, there are parallels in the past for the adoption of a global plant-based diet, not least of all the agricultural revolution that took place in the Near East, about 10,000, 10,000 to 12,000 years ago, when you had the transition from hunter-gathering lifestyles and hunter-gathering societies to the first farming-based society.

And what you had then was you had something similar. You had people giving up the kind of rich, animal-based diet. They would have been moving through the landscape in small bands, hunting gazelle and other wild animal birds, eating, you know, foraging around in marine environments, eating mollus and oysters and all that kind of shellfish. That was all given up for a predominantly grain-based diet. And it had disastrous health effects. And so, one of the things that I really do in the eggs Benedict option is I draw out parallels between this vision of a plant-based future and the plant-based past in the agricultural revolution. I say, look, like it was a disaster then to go from an animal-based diet to a grain diet.

It will be the same in the future, you know, if we give up animal foods and start eating just soy and you know new new varieties of GMO wheat and all this kind of stuff and bugs you know there's this obsession with making people eat insects which i really kind of dig into um so i mean yeah so there's there is very definitely a historical element to my work uh i think it's important especially when you're talking about nutrition actually and this is something that people don't really um understand or really get told by mainstream nutritionists is that actually you know if you're want to, if you want to understand what human beings should be eating, actually you need to look at the past. You need to look at more simple societies, tribal societies, rather than taking your cues

from the scientific and medical establishment and from all of this really very, very partisan science that is often funded by, you know, groups that want to promote particular kinds of food. Yeah, there is an important historical dimension to my work, even if it doesn't quite overlap with, you know, writing about medieval parish churches. Yeah, well, and I don't think they could have predicted in the future you'd have, what is it, fake meat? I'm trying to think of the name of lab grown meat. Like, I can't even conceive of that being a great idea yet here we sit in 2026. You know, the bug thing, Canada got its first bug plan. And you're like, can't, like, sitting where I sit, Charles, grew up on a farm, right?

Yeah. Like everything you, you're like meat, milk, eggs. It's like, check, check, check. Now it's like, no, but you should just eat plants. Like, you know, bugs. Yep. Cattle are polluting the world. You're like, what are they talking about?

I sit in the side of the world where I'm like, none of this makes sense. It's so, it seems so disastrous to the human population. in my humble opinion. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it really, I think it really will be a disaster for health. And you only actually need to look at vegans as a group, you know, I mean, vegans are a cautionary, vegans are a warning, I think, of the pitfalls of abandoning animal-based diets. I mean, vegetarians, you can get away with being a vegetarian if you eat eggs and milk.

if you're not like, you know, if you're a lacto-o-o-vegetarian, that's what that's what that's generally called. If you still drink milk, if you still eat eggs and you eat butter and stuff like that, then you can get cholesterol in particular, high-quality protein that you just don't get from plant-based diets. And, you know, I mean, vegans have to supplement their diets. You have to take supplements. You have to supplement with things like vitamin B-12, for example. And, you know, you know, a B-12 deficiency is disastrous, and it's disastrous for brain health, it's disastrous for metabolic health. And yet here we are, you know, the entire scientific establishment for the most part, NGOs, governments, celebrities, you know, celebrities are a big part of this

pushing plant-based diets, trying to get us to abandon animal agriculture to save the world from climate change. It has a momentum of its own that actually, you know, defies logic and it defies the facts. And like you say, you know, you grew up on a farm, you understand very intimately that farming cows in the right way, I'm not necessarily talking about industrial agriculture where you stick 10,000 cows in a warehouse and you pump them with soy. But if you're grazing cows in the manner that our ancestors have done for thousands of years, then it's pretty, pretty hard actually to see how that could be anything other than a beneficial practice rather than a harmful one. Yeah, we, well, my father and my grandfather, right, with cattle,

you hear all these stories about how they, you know, they put thousands of cattle in a, in a facility or whatever. And you look out the door at cattle just roaming and grazing. for this doesn't match our world right what's what's happening elsewhere you know the the Hollywood stars right like our iconic figures shaming us for yeah I mean in my world they lost all credibility in COVID yeah cool and then they lost even more credibility with uh all their how do I put it you know like the the diversity equity inclusion the DEI you're like this is this is this is just bizarre and uh you know i was a i don't know about yourself charles but growing up i loved movies i just loved it they were so good now i'm like i just i can't like i

the new chrisper nolan yeah love love all of his movies and if they cast elliott page gillies if that is true like you just go what is going on like you i want nothing to do with it and i i've loved movie he's done until this point and I'm going to wait and hear what the the critics have to say until I actually even decide to go to it because if that's true like this is this world sucks right now for for entertainment I feel like it gives the opportunity for somebody to walk in and completely do things that is I don't know they'll shame it and everything else but they'll be unreal and could change that culture well I mean look at a film like top gun two right I mean, Top Gun 2, kind of out of the blue, totally against the grain, enormous success.

And what does it say? It's like people want those kind of archetypal stories. They want what Hollywood used to do, you know. They want guys like Tom Cruise to be heroes unambiguously. And, you know, patriotic subject matter actually, you know, gets people in the cinemas. casting Elliot Page as Achilles. I mean, it's so absurd. It's like parody has actually ceased, I think, in many respects to be possible.

You know, when you've got Elliot Page as Achilles and you've got Lupita Nyongo as Helen of Troy. I mean, and what's so funny as well, of course, is, you know, you have a film like Troy, right, where you have Brad Pitt as Achilles. And you have, oh, I think, Diane, was it Diane Kruger? I think it was Diane Kruger as Helen of Troy. And let's, and let's, the historic, you know, Helen of Troy, they fought a giant war over this lady. I don't know about most men.

Why, actually, I do. Yeah. And you don't go to war. She has to be beautiful. It has to be something worth fighting over. Am I wrong? No, no. I mean, it turns it into a ridiculous exercise.

I mean, it's just this kind of insane. It requires this suspension of disbelief that is just, it's too much. It's too much. Like you can't sit and watch a film where Helen of Troy is not the most beautiful woman in the world. Because, you know, it's like, you know, instead of the face that launched a thousand ships, it's the face that stopped a thousand ships from being launched in the first place. You know, it's like the the Trojan war would not have happened. But yeah, it's a fun.

That, you know what? Somewhere South Park or, you know, maybe back in the day family guy, they could do a parody of this where the thousand ships don't go. Yeah. Achilles lives. Yeah. Give it up, lads. Yeah.

No point. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, right? It's like Menelaus, Helen of Troy's wife, would be happy for her to be stolen by Paris, right? if she's not attractive. It's like, yeah, it just, it doesn't make sense. But I mean, I do, I do think that there is still a lot of space actually for directors to go back to the kind of classic kind of Hollywood movie. And it's, it's surprising actually that it hasn't happened more in the aftermath of Top Gun 2. I am actually quite surprised that we haven't seen more

traditional action movies and instead what we've seen is we've seen Hollywood going even further into wokeifying whatever you want to call it Hollywood franchises you know so you have a predator movie where the I forget what the name what it was called but it was a predator movie with a female lead you know and it's like no what what people want is they want something that kind of verges on what predator, the original predator was, right? Where you get like the biggest badasses, you assemble a roster of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Carl Weathers, Jesse Ventura, the, I forget the name of the Native American guy, you know, and it's just like this testosterone is literally coming out of the screen,

you know, like that's what you want. But Hollywood executives, I think, are still convinced that actually they can convince people, you know, a lise woman could kill a predator with her bare hands or with a with a bow and arrow. And it's like, nobody believe, nobody believe. I mean, people still go and see these films. They still make a bit of money, but it's not like the smash hit that a real kind of reboot or return to the kind of Hollywood tradition will bring, I think. I would agree. Now, switching back to health.

I feel like now maybe I never paid attention to it before or maybe in the journey of the podcast and talking to different people. It feels like there's an epidemic of like health issues all across the board where they can eat certain things. I just, I mean like all the time. It's just like every time you think you've seen the, you know, the last one you see a new one. You're like, that's it. You can't eat. You can't do milk. You can't do this.

You can't do that. You know, and on and on it goes. What are your thoughts on the, unless you, I assume you think there's an epidemic of health issues. And I, you know, I mean, you've got a book that talks a lot about basic problems going on in society that are very complex, I might add. But regardless, like it just seems like in everyday people's health, there's a lot of people listen to me come from the farm. so that, you know, they're eating, you know, farm-grown beef, eggs, milk, on and on. But there's a lot of people who live in the cities that are going to the superstore and grabbing, you know, the versions of it.

Well, there's, I mean, yeah, I mean, there is a chronic disease epidemic. Absolutely. I mean, rates of every chronic disease you can imagine have exploded in recent decades. Certainly, you know, in the last 50 years, 30 years, it's got even worse, 20 years, even worse. I mean, it's a, it is, as you say, it's a complex problem. And I think there are a lot of different things going on. I mean, I do think a lot of the time, or at least some of the time, when you see people who claim that they can't eat anything, you know, where they make up these, like, I can't eat this, I can't eat that. There is a psychosomatic element to that,

I think, at some level where it is almost kind of like an attention gravity. mental illness. But nevertheless, food intolerances and digestive problems are definitely on the rise and they're on the rise in large part because the quality of the food supply is just, you know, it's just taking a nose dive and food is loaded with ever more additive, low quality ingredients and also contaminated with things like herbicides and pesticides and other industrial chemicals and food contact chemicals, plastic chemicals, microplastics. So I mean, like people are, people's digestion is becoming worse and worse and it is absolutely linked to the quality of the food supply. You know, we've seen an explosion, for example, in diagnoses of what were previously

quite rare digestive cancers in quite young people, you know, colon cancer, rectal cancer, rectal cancer. And I think it is, I think it is linked to changing diet. And, you know, I mean, people get more and more of their daily calories now from processed and ultra processed foods. I mean, studies show, for example, in the UK, which is one of the worst places really in the world, along with Australia and the US. Toddlers, so children age two to five, get 66% of their daily calories now from ultra processed foods. You know, I mean, It's the majority of most people's diet now is food that is produced in a factory and that actually resembles no form of food that humans have consumed in their 200,000 year history as modern

humans until the last 70 years. So, I mean, we've seen a profound change to the way that humans eat and it is having profound effects on our health, absolutely. What's the difference between processed food, ultra-processed food? It's the degree of processing. So, I mean, you have to understand really that actually, you know, humans have processed food since the dawn of time. Cooking a piece of meat is processing. Making bread is processing. You're processing grains. You're fermenting them and you're cooking them or baking them, you know. Like, so cheese is a processed food. So we have processed foods for a long time, but it's the degree of, you're, you're cooking. of processing that is different.

So, you know, on the one hand, let's say you've got a cheese. You've got a cheese like cheddar, which is made in the traditional manner. That's a processed food. And then you've got spray cheese in a can, the kind of things you might get, you know, like in an American supermarket. Well, that's an ultra processed food. And that's a, that's the kind of food you can only make in a factory using modern industrial methods and modern industrial ingredients.

So, I mean, a good rule of thumb about ultra-processed food is it's food that you find in a supermarket wrapped in plastic and you look at the ingredients and it contains ingredients that you would not find in a normal person's kitchen. Emulsifiers, high fructose corn syrup, preservatives, various other kinds of additives, humectants, all these kinds of things, colourings. So really, it's the degree of processing. And so you shouldn't necessarily think that if a food has been processed, i.e. has had something done to it and it isn't in its raw state, that it's somehow bad for us.

And I mean, in fact, processing food makes food more nutritious in many respects. I mean, fermenting milk into yogurt can actually make it more nutritious, not less. Same with cheese and other things. bread, you know, processing is actually a way to make many different food stuff more edible. It's the ultra-processing. It's where you actually, you go even further than that with these industrial processes and you create foods that, I mean, scientists, food scientists, some of them refer to ultra-processed foods as food-like substances rather than foods. They say, look, actually, we've gone beyond a point where we're creating food.

And what you're creating is a food-like substance that bears the hallmarks of nutrition, and yet it isn't, it doesn't provide nutrition. It's actually harmful. So it's about, yes, it's about the use of industrial processes and industrial ingredients, fundamentally. So essentially, in my brain, when I think of processed food then, I see a sliding scale. because, you know, no matter what you do, you are processed, you know, you kill a beef, let's say, and then you go cook it, you're processing it. Then there's like lab grown meat. That's, that's on the ultra-process side, because I mean, that wouldn't even exist. Or your spray-can cheese,

you're like, there's no way you can get to like, oh, that's a real food. No, no, precisely. It bears absolutely, it bears very little resemblance to any kind of food. the humans have eaten for the vast majority of human history. It's dependent on industrial society and industrial processes. And, you know, ultra-processed foods are generally, you know, made with the lowest possible quality ingredients. And, you know, they're intended to be sold in a supermarket. They're intended to have particular properties as well. You know, one of the important properties of ultra-processed food is that it can last on a store shelf for a long time, right?

So you add preservatives, you add other forms of additives that make its shelf stable. So you can ship it long distances, you can keep it on a supermarket shelf for a month, six weeks, eight weeks, maybe longer. And all of these additives that are being used in ultra-processed foods turn out to have some very, very unpleasant effects. So things like industrial emulsifiers. So, you know, there are various different compounds that are used to provide different textures for ultra-processed foods. And one of them is emulsifiers. I mean, eggs are an emulsifier. You know, you emulsify sources with eggs, for example.

But they're very different from the kind of corn-based. It's corn-based in particular emulsifiers that are used in ultra-processed foods. Studies show that these new emulsifiers have all sorts of very, very unpleasant effects on the gut microbiome. And the gut microbiome is the community of microbes that inhabits the digestive. track and they're of essential importance to health. This is something that we're only just starting to appreciate actually is that you know, you've got to look after these little microbes, billions and billions of little microbes that live in your gut because they do all sorts of things. Not only do they help you digest food, they regulate your moods, they produce neurotransmitters

that interact with the brain. They also regulate your body's hormone levels. So I mean, there are microbes that you have in your gut that can promote the production of different kinds of hormones. There are actually microbes that you can have in your gut that will increase your testosterone levels, for example. So I mean, one of the things that we're finding out uniformly about the ingredients, the industrial ingredients that go into ultra-processed foods is that they really do interfere with the way that we digest food and they tilt our microbiome. towards pathogenic bacteria, harmful bacteria, fungi and yeasts. And it turns out actually that a lot of chronic diseases, including actually conditions like

autism and ADHD, may very well be linked to gut dysfunction. This is a really like a key link in this whole problem of all of these different chronic diseases is gut dysfunction. So, you know, there are documented cases, for example, where children with very, very severe cases of autism will cease to display any symptoms whatsoever when they're treated with antifungals. And what seems to happen,

I'm not saying that autism is always caused by gut dysfunction, but I think it's one cause of autism. What seems to happen is that children have disturbed, autistic children can have a disturbed digestive system and harmful bacteria and particularly fungi start to grow in massive quantities in their digestive tracts and they basically release harmful substances that interfere with cognition and brain development and brain function. And that can be treated just by giving a child a common antifungal like sporinox, for example. So, yeah, the digestive thing is definitely key. And I think it is, I think, yes, people are showing growing intolerances to various different kinds of foods. Because foods are changing, that's the fundamental. Even things like milk, you know, when people say, oh, I'm lactose intolerant, I can't drink milk.

Well, if you're of European descent, that's unlikely. So as a population, Europeans have the highest prevalence of lactase persistence genes. So what that means basically is that you continue to produce lactase, which is an enzyme that dissolves the digest sugars in milk. You continue to produce that into adulthood. And that's not actually normal for humans. Well, that hasn't been the norm for humans. but Europeans developed lactase persistence. So if you're a European, you're likely to be able to digest milk.

The problem is that milk is homogenized, industrially produced milk, milk you find in supermarkets, is homogenized with this very, very unpleasant substance called carogenin, which is a seaweed derivative. And it's actually used in lab experiments to induce inflammatory tumors, in rodents. So scientists will use carotinan to make rats and mice develop cancer, basically, and this substance is also used to homogenize milk. And that's what's interfering with people's digestion. So they say, I'm lactose intolerant. When I drink milk, it makes my stomach feel bad.

It gives me wind, blah, blah, blah, gives me diarrhea, right? It's probably not, if you're European, it's probably not the lactose. It's probably the carogenin. And if you drank, raw milk or unhomogenized high quality milk, even pasteurized, you wouldn't suffer those symptoms. So yeah, I mean, the food is, the food is changing. The food is changing and has been changing for a long time, and it's having very, very serious knock on effects on our health. And the closer you get to the source, raw milk in this example, the less things that have been put into it, so it's quite obvious. Yeah. And there's a very good chance. there would be no effect on it because of because of ingredients yeah exactly and i mean you you have to

understand you know for the vast majority of human history we have consumed foods that have been produced locally and when i say locally i mean like within uh yeah of a few times i mean i grew up on a farm where my grandmother canned everything right every tree in the yard at a purpose still there today You can imagine in northern Canada, we have a giant pear tree in her yard still, right? Yeah. And everything was, you know, as kids picked berries. You went out to the pasture and picked Saskatoon berries and raspberries and all the things, everything. And because you wanted fruit in the middle of the wintertime, you weren't going to the supermarket.

You were taking something that began. That's, I didn't quite understand it. As I get older, I'm like, I get it now more and more, right? Like, because, I mean, you can just go to the superstore and get whatever you want where that wasn't the case back then. Flipping to your book, okay, the last man, liberalism and the death of masculinity. Walk me through this. Yeah, so the book is a follow on from the Tucker Carlson documentary that I was in in 2022, really. So the central problem of the book is testosterone decline as a civilizational phenomenon because that's exactly.

what it is. I mean, testosterone has been declining this. Testosterone, the master male hormone, the hormone that is responsible for differentiating men from women, men have more testosterone than women do. It's been on the decline for decades. Gold standard scientific research, like the Massachusetts male aging study, for example, shows that testosterone levels are decreasing probably about 1% year on year. And now that might not sound like a lot. But, you know, but you know, you get 25 years. You're talking about a board. To me, that sounds like a lot.

Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's cumulative. And it's been going on for decades and studies have shown that actually it's happening across the Western world. It's not just happening in America. It's happening in Finland. It's happening in Israel.

It's happening across the board. And so the book really is about the social and political implications of testosterone end of climb, which is something that people don't really want to talk about, as well as the causes. So, I mean, I go in depth about the cause. Why don't people want to talk about it that way? I think there are a number of different reasons. I mean, one of the one of the principal reasons, I think, is that we live in a quite a profoundly misandrist society. We live in a society where actually men are no longer taken seriously and where their contribution is devalued. I mean, We live in a society where we're actually sort of taught that, you know, things like the patriarchy, toxic masculinity is the root of all of our problems.

You know, I mean, men have been in control for too long. They've tyrannized women. They've inflicted their aggression and their insecurities on women. And, you know, it's created an unequal, unfair society. And so now, certainly after the Second World War, you know, with the march of second, third wave feminism and equality for all, you know, we're moving to a more equitable society where actually, you know, masculinity isn't needed. We don't need aggressive, angry men. Maybe we don't even need men at all. So I think that's a big part of it. It's just basically the fact that actually we don't particularly. as a society, as a culture, civilization, whatever you want to call it, we don't particularly care about men's problems anymore. And so despite this evidence of testosterone decline building up for decades, and it has, you know, I mean, we're talking, I think Massachusetts male aging

study, the testosterone data came out in 2005, 2006, you know, 20 years ago. So there is just a sense in which actually, you know, like people are just like, well, who cares if testosterone declining, because that makes men obnoxious. It makes men aggressive, and it's a good thing maybe if men aren't obnoxious and aggressive anymore. So there's that, I think. But then there's also, I think, a sort of broader political sense, as I was kind of just touching on, that actually testosterone is considered to be a bar to progress.

Testosterone is considered to be an antisocial hormone. It's what makes men aggressive, supposedly, which is partly true. It is involved in aggression, but it does a lot of other things besides making men aggressive. It's, as I kind of lay out in the book, you know, testosterone is basically the biological source actually of the masculine virtues. And so the kind of social and political implications of testosterone decline are, well, you have, you don't have as many men. You don't have, you may have men, but they're not masculine. And I mean, it's my contention, and I think it's a fairly obvious contention, actually, that, you know, to have a functioning society, you need men who embody the masculine virtues. So that's really what the book is about.

The book is about declining testosterone, social and political implications and the causes. And I mean, it's posed as a philosophical issue as well, you know, the title. is liberalism and the death of masculinity. I think there are aspects of liberalism as a political system that actually are kind of anti-testosterone. And I kind of get into the thickets of the weeds and kind of thickets of that. But fundamentally, yes. I mean, it's a biological problem, but it's also a social and political problem. And, you know, like I talk about, for example, the 2024 election, was a very, very interesting event at 2024 election in the US. Because you actually had man versus woman, Donald Trump versus Kamala Harris,

and testosterone actually became a kind of dividing line between Democrats and Republicans in the election. Because on the one hand, you had Donald Trump, you know, who was, you know, had two assassination attempts against him. And I mean, the first, I mean, you know, this incredible heroic display, you know, where he's shot in the ear on stage and he gets up. And instead of crawling away or allowing himself to be sort of shepherded off stage by the Secret Service, he stays. And he says, no, I need to, you know, I need to show my supporters. I need to show the world that I'm okay and that we're going to fight on, you know. And he makes this gesture, fight, fight, fight.

And as far as he knew, you know, there was still an assassin. He was still in the line of fire, as it were. And then at the Republican National Convention, you had Hulk Hogan ripping his shirt off to reveal a Trump fan's t-shirt, let Trump a mania run wild. This kind of absurd testosterone-fueled spectacle. And then what did the Democrats have? Well, they have Kamala Harris. and at the Democrat National Convention, Planned Parenthood parks a mobile vasectomy wagon

outside the convention center. This is real, and I talk about it in the book. So Planned Parenthood turn up with a mobile clinic, and they offer male convention goers in Chicago the opportunity to be emasculated before they go inside the conference hall. I feel like the world is creating, the conditions where masculine men are going to take over because you're just going to be no competition.

Right? Well, I think, or do you disagree? No, I do. No, absolutely. And I mean, I think this is visible in so many ways. And it's visible particularly in birth rates. So, I mean, I wrote a piece recently, an essay recently about differences in conservative and liberal fertility rates. I mean, across the world, conservatives have more children, the liberals.

And liberals are leaning harder and harder into anti-natalism in particular. The only problem with conservatives or that thought process is the liberals have control of all the structures. Or at least that's the way it looks. Right? You send your kids off to school. Yeah. And what do you get there? You don't get a strong adoption of the masculine.

No. I think there's day by day probably more pushing for that. But right now as it sits, conservatives can have all the kids they want if they send them off to structures that change their mind on how to view the world. They've found a way we don't need to have kids. We'll just take yours and they'll adopt our principles. Well, I mean, yes. And this is the other way in which liberals reproduce by non-sexual means

is they import people from other countries to have children. That too. So, you know, you, okay, you don't have children as an educated East Coast liberal, let's say. But you vote for people who bring in thousands, millions of people with higher birth rates from Mexico, Guatemala, Africa, wherever. And they inevitably vote liberal because the liberals or the Democrats, you know, they're the ones who brought them to the country. They're the ones who provide them with benefits. They're their champions. So actually, yes, I mean, it is more complicated than just talking about fertility and sexual reproduction

because liberals don't need to have sex to reproduce. Yeah, which is a funny, that's a funny statement. I'm sorry that. I mean, like, that's a funny statement. It just is. You know, like it just, you know, you think of, of, strong men, masculine men. And yeah, there's the, oh, the, you know, they're disagreeable or they get into fights or whatever.

It's like, well, right now with, take your pick. You can either take Russia, you can take Iran. They're both signaling different things. What do they need men to do? They need men to go off and fight. And if you have a docile country that doesn't want to go fight, nobody's going to go fight your stupid wars, right? Like, and what did you have back in the world wars? You had a button, like, I ran into a.

Well, not a ton. Forgive me, folks. More of, I've interviewed now several elderly men, someone who have passed since I've interviewed them. And they talked about being the best time in their life. Like, they just, you know, gave them real sense of purpose. Those were men going off to war where their friends and family were dying, you know, or, you know, you do the Jordan Peterson. How many people want to get up on a, well, it would have been a skyscraper,

but, you know, or today a plumber, different things like that, you need, those are predominantly men going to do pretty shitty jobs. Yeah. No unintended or maybe a pun intended. But it's absolutely true. It's absolutely true. And I think one of the worst things about the modern liberal system is that it, it almost by its very nature deprives men of satisfying outlets for their masculinity.

It, you know, we're moving towards this, this kind of convergence of gender roles. It's only getting, it's only sort of getting worse where we're almost, we've almost hit on a kind of asexual ideal, which is, you know, sort of supposed to be suitable for both sexes. But actually, it's incredibly frustrating for men, I think. A lot of men just feel incredibly frustrated by the options that are available for them, by the kind of, you know, by the kind of of teaching that they receive and the kind of opportunities that they have actually to do things that are fundamentally satisfying as men. And I do believe what you say. I mean, I think that actually we shouldn't be surprised that men talk about things like World War II, you know, or Korea or even

Vietnam. And it's like that was the best time of my life because that was, I was with other men and every single thing that we did mattered. If we made the wrong decision, we died. And I relied on the man next to me and he relied on me. And we had this like manly understanding of each other. And that kind of thing is is so distant now, I think, for most men. You know, most, you might get some kind of intimation of it in team sport, perhaps. For sure you would.

But fewer and fewer people probably play team sports than they ever did. And, you know, so it's, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a funny thing. And it's hard to see this is one of the things that I talk about in the book. It's, you know, like, it's hard to see actually what the solution is to the problem. We can identify the problem. We can diagnose the problem. But it's hard to see how actually like a liberal political system could fundamentally satisfy, men who really do want real masculine outlets for their kind of testosterone-driven

driven desires and behaviours. So it's a really, really fawny problem. But I mean, I think the first step actually to doing something about it is to acknowledge that there is a problem. And but unfortunately, you know, the left liberals, then they continue to bury their heads in the sand about the kind of problems that face men as a as a sex. So it's not a surprise, really, that people that men probably turn to the right rather than the left, you know, for answers to their problems. Forgive me. I know we're bumping up on time. I just, I had one other question if you, if you got a few moments. I was curious, because like with men, specifically young men, you know,

they're searching for somebody who can kind of show them a way to be a man, right? Yes. And so for me in my early 30s, I stumbled in Jordan Peterson and read them and then went and, you know, listening to him talking. I'm like, wow, this is, this is something. Yeah. Today's young man, I think of Charlie Kirk, who's no longer with us. Yeah.

I keep running into this social media streamer, clavicle, clavicle,er. I can't even say it. Thank you. I can't even say it. And I watch them and I go, I kind of get why young men are following them. And then where I sit in life, I go, I don't get it. Another one is Andrew Tate, right? Like there's a bunch of different guys out there telling people how to, or telling men specifically how to be men.

there is the possibility that young men go a different way than the traditional man of, I don't know, taking care of one's family and community and just standing firm and who they are and becoming a strong man. Or maybe you don't, I don't know. I guess I'm curious your thoughts, Charles. I think back to my grandfather who ran a farm or my father who continues to run a farm and a business and have a family and, you know, stand strong for his family. And then I see some of the online personalities who, to me,

and I could be wrong on this, look like they womanize, worry about, you know, like their facial structure and how they comb their hair as maybe two different ideals. Yeah, I mean, I think people like Andrew Tate aren't really the best role model for young men looking. for like a satisfying well maybe maybe satisfying is the wrong wrong thing because i think um certain aspects of andrew tate's life i think appeal to or the presentation of andrew tate's life appeal to young men where they think like oh yeah i can be successful with women i can have cars i have a glamorous lifestyle i've travel i have money uh all that kind of stuff um and and yeah

i mean i think young men do want excitement but i think what andrew tate I think what Andrew Tate and guys like Andrew Tate do is they lean into the problems of modern day society. You know, like they tell men, for example, young men that all women are basically prostitutes, right? I mean, that's the kind of Andrew Tate line is, oh, women are just prostitutes. And, you know, there are obviously all sorts of problems with modern day dating. I mean, dating is a nightmare now. dating is a nightmare for various different reasons and it seems to be getting worse. I mean, you've got the, I think the dating apps make it, make it particularly unpleasant to date

these days. And then you've, obviously, you've got the kind of hysterical feminism and the kind of accusatory environment that we, that we inhabit, especially after Me Too. You've got social media, you know, where everybody's life is infinitely documented and you can't go to a nightclub anymore and dance without someone filming you or approach a girl without someone filming you and posting it on you know social media so um uh i think people like andrew take probably prey on the weaknesses and insecurities of young men and they provide um they provide a kind of um not even not a band-aid but they they don't provide real solutions i mean it's it's interesting to contrast the approach of someone like Andrew Tate with say Jordan Peterson.

And I mean, the Jordan Peterson phenomenon, it's very easy to forget, was like a religious revival. I mean, he really was like a really 2017, 2018, when he first came on the scene, first couple of years. You know, like he was selling out stadiums and young men were all dressing up in their best clothing and going there and, you know, like really mobbing him and really looking to him. as almost like a prophet surrogate father kind of figure is really, really quite an amazing, amazing thing.

So, I mean, there are different kinds of role models, yes, for young men. I think there are role models who encourage young men to be the best possible version of themselves to, you know, as Jordan Peterson said, to take up your burden, to shoulder your responsibilities, to grow into being a man, to take weight on your back. and, you know, build yourself under a load. And then there are kind of these other kind of influences who just kind of say, well, okay, oh, well, the world's messed up. You've got to be the worst possible version of yourself. You know, you've got to treat every, it's kill or be killed, all that kind of stuff. And there is obviously an element of that to the world.

And there always will be that, you know, there is a kind of kill or be killed element. But I think the two approaches are very different. I mean, unfortunately, I think the kind of Andrew Tate approach actually is very, very well suited to social media. Very, very well suited to things like TikTok in particular, where you can make, you know, like a 30 second, 10 second hilarious or seemingly quite hilarious clip of, you know, Andrew Tate saying something and then millions of millions of young men watch it and, you know, it kind of so it begins. But yeah, I mean, I do think that, I mean, someone like clavicular, I think is kind of funny, but he is also really like a morality tale for our time, actually, I think of what it looks like to be totally addicted to oneself. And I don't think that that is necessarily a particular,

it's certainly not a classic masculine virtue, I would say. If you were speaking to, let's say, let's pick on a, not a stereotypical male, but a male maybe of today's world, overweight, loss of oneself or just can't find meaning in the world. If you had some just easy solutions for them, try a couple of these things and see what it does. And it doesn't have to be for the next five years. Try it for like the next month or maybe you have a timeline. What would be some solutions you're like, here's some things to try and implement in your life and watch what changes happen to yourself? Yeah, well, I mean, I think, look, if you're talking about someone who's in a very bad state, somebody who is overweight and depressed, you know, doesn't do very much, doesn't have any motivation, you have to start small. I mean, my advice in general is look like don't think, don't try to change everything. everything at once, right? You know, like start with some very small things because change is

cumulative, change snowballs. So you make small changes and then over a period of time, it adds up into something, you know, six months later, a year later, your life is unrecognizable. So if you're in a bad state, if you're overweight, you know, just get active. And by active, you know, like if you lay around all day, just go for a walk. Set yourself the goal. of going for a walk each day. Go for 10 minutes. Go for a 10 minute walk around the block. Work on your diet.

Try to cut out as much processed food as you can. Try to learn to cook. Just basic stuff. Just try to learn to prepare food yourself in your own home. So you have an idea of exactly what's going into your body and where it's come from. Fixing your sleep is important as well. that's something that anybody can do is to try to get better sleep. I mean, just doing those three things cumulatively over time.

If you keep building on them, you know, if you start just going for walks and then you go for longer walks. And then maybe once you've built a little, a minimum of physical fitness, then maybe you can start running. Maybe you start lifting weights. Same with the diet. You know, you cut out a bit of crap from your diet. and then you cut out more and then you cut out more and then eventually you're not eating processed food at all and you're preparing your food yourself all of these things add up so i mean yeah i would say start very very small small actionable things that you can do in your life that make a change will add up

you just have to you just have to be humble enough i think that's what it is i think that's uh humility i think is something that you you do need to humble yourself you do need to say right like yeah, I'm not who I should be. I'm not the man I should be. I'm not going to, I'm not going to be the man I should be overnight. But what I am going to do is I'm going to make small changes to my life and I'm going to stick with them. And I'm going to see, I'm going to see where that leads me. And I think that that's, that's actually enough. That's actually the beginning of a fundamental change. If you can stick with it. Yeah, I'm Peterson would, would have said or would say, aim in the direction you want to go and just start moving towards it.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Big changes don't, you know, one of the ones that, uh, um, I thought was so stupid. We have a book club. And I remember my brother getting down in the middle of the book club and doing pushup. This is like seven, eight years ago. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing?

He's like, I read this guy. He just said push up a day. Just push up a day. If you do that, you know, you're going to say, and I was like, that's stupid. And I'm watching them. And then I caught myself. I'm like, well, maybe I should just try it instead of thinking it's stupid. And it's funny.

You get down, you do one pushup a day. And all of a sudden, that equates to 10 or to 30 or 100. And eventually you get so tired of push-ups, you go find a new way to move your muscles because you're so tired of it. Either way, Charles, I appreciate you giving me an extra few minutes here today. If people want to find your book one more time, where can they find it? And, yeah, just thanks for hopping on and doing this. It's been an absolute pleasure, Sean.

So you can get my book at Amazon, The Last Men, Liberalism and the Death of masculinity, hardcover Kindle, audio book formats. Follow me on Twitter, Roar Egg Nationalist, and I have a substack as well, where I post essays, nutritional advice, fitness, podcast episodes. That's rawegstack.com. Rawegstack.com. And it's been an absolute pleasure, Sean. Thank you.

Thanks, Charles.