Shaun Newman Podcast - #1102 - Jocelyn Burzuik

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Jocelyn Burzuik is President and Senior Construction Manager of Sundance Construction & Safety Consulting Inc., a 100% Indigenous (Red River Métis)-owned general contracting firm she founded in Manitoba’s Interlake region in 2013. A design-builder and project management professional specializing in civil infrastructure—water and sewer systems, sewage lagoons, treatment plants, lift stations, and related works.Cornerstone Forum 26’https://shaunnewmanpodcast.substack.com/Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionBitcoin: www.bowvalleycu.com/en/personal/investing-wealth/bitcoin-gatewayEmail: [e-mail] Get your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500

This is Brett Weinstein. This is Tom Lomago. This is Bruce Party. This is Alex Krenner. Hey, this is Brad Wall. This is Dr. Pierre-Core. Hi, this is Frank Paredi. This is Daniel Smith.

This is James Lindsay. This is Vance Crowe and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Thursday. How's everybody doing today? This is interesting. I'm sitting at Jasmine Lane's house right now. Obviously, you're not going to hear that episode for a couple of days.

But regardless, I'm just getting around. ready to chat with hers. So that's a little foresight into what's coming on the podcast here in the next week. Before we get into where we're at here, life on the road, let's start with a little silver gold bull, shall we, whether buying, selling, storing precious metals, whether you're Manitoba and Saskatchewan, Alberta, or maybe some other steps along the way, wherever you hang your hat. Of course, they service all of you. Go to silvergoldbill.com. It's all online. You click there. You register an account. You purchase, and it ships right to your doorstep super slick. You may have noticed their gold in Costco and yeah, they supply all of

Costco. If you're down in the states of silvergolde.com, regardless, it's super easy. Down on the show notes, you can text your email Graham for details with any questions to have around investing in precious metals or anything else for that matter. He's always excited to talk to all of you. Guardian plumbing and hemen, these guys been keeping homes, farms, and businesses running smoothly since 2010. You know, whether it's expert service cutting edge power solutions or advice you can trust, Guardian plumbing and heating has your back, and you can find them at Guardianplumbing.ca. They're based out of my hometown of Lloydminster, but they certainly go further out than that. They seem to be always on the road. And if you've got problems, they've got solutions. So Guardianplumbing.com.

And Wainwright, Alberta, ignite distribution. They're a high service supply company based, once again in Wainer at Alberta, specializing in automotive parts and wide range of additional products, including safety equipment, welding supplies, fasteners, and janitorial items operating as a Napa Auto Parts retailer. And they've got all the supplies you can need

to keep your business running, and you can give them a call 780842-3433. You can stop in too and see Shane Stafford and his team. They'll get you taken care of. Caleb Taves and the Renegate Acres. They did the stamp concrete in the new studio. And of course, when it comes to Renegate Acres,

they've put in the community spotlight. And here I sit in, once again, Jasmine Lane's house recording the intro for Thursday's interview. I've spent the day in Winnipeg and we're still in Grand Beach for the next day and a half. I'll be recording the mashup out of Grand Beach campgrounds. That should be a lot of fun. And, you know, we're just looking forward to a day at the beach on Thursday. If I'm being honest, we've been pushing the show pretty hard. I've been all over the place and looking forward to, I mean, it's like 38 above here right now.

It's hot. It's humid. But, yeah, I don't care what Manitobans say, folks. There's hardly any mosquitoes that I've seen. I'll probably eat my words tonight. But it has been an awesome little trip into Manitoba and just appreciative of every Manitoban that has, you know, sat and had a conversation with me. I got to bump into Lee, so shout out to Lee and Kathy.

sat and had a conversation with them at their place while I was in Winnipeg. I got to run into an old teammate of mine from Dryden Days, Brennan McDonald, so a shout-out to him. We sat and had lunch together, and that was awesome to catch up, and it's just been an enjoyable day in Winnipeg running around, you know, grabbing a couple interviews and seeing a few people I haven't seen for quite some time. Now, the S&P road trip is powered by Zeebbs, a family-owned and fine-tuned in Chestermere, Alberta. Zeb's performance restoration delivers family-owned.

or sorry, expert classic car restorations and custom exhaust and performance upgrades that keep your ride reliable and roaring. I think Lee and Kathy can agree when the old Black Beast came rolling in. She was a roaring. Any upgrades you need, visit zeebs.ca and find Zane and Brian. Now, if you're listening on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, RumbleX, Facebook substack, make sure to subscribe, make sure to leave a review. If you enjoy the interview today, make sure that you share with a friend. and if you haven't subscribed or signed up on Substack, you really should.

We got the week in review there. We got Tanner Nadey's Masterclass talking about the Life of Paul that's releasing over the next couple months. So that's a lot of fun. And that's for paid members. So you've got to be a paid member support the show to find the master class. But there's a whole bunch of freebies in there too if you want to fall along with what's going on on the road and everything else. All right. Let's get on to that tail of the tape.

Today's guest is the owner of Sundance Construction. I'm talking about Jocelyn Berziak. So buckle up. Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Jocelyn Berziak. It's cool to finally meet you. We've had a, in my opinion, a wonderful day because I got to come here earlier,

brought Mel and the kids. And certainly, you know, like, I'm sure at times they're like, what is Sean taking us to? Or what is dad taking us to, right? Yeah. But I got to see your development. and what you're working on and kind of, you know, just see where you call home and, you know, and be in front of the Sundance construction sign and kind of, you know, I've interviewed you

virtually while you've sat here. So this is pretty cool. So first off, thanks for doing this and being here and hopping on and everything else. Oh, I'm loving it. I'm so happy. I was actually looking forward to you guys coming out like for a long time. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We just, just because when We're online and we're talking and, you know, I looked at it. We started talking in 2022. I know. So we started talking 22. Somebody suggested this Sundance Construction Twitter handle.

And I was like, sure. What are they talking about? And at that time, it was your dealings with the government and whistleblowing and everything else. But it's, it's, X has been a really interesting thing. And, you know, once upon a time, Twitter now X, of how many people I've met through there when people have something to say and they only have a short. span to say it to catch people's attention. Those people stand out. I mean, obviously everybody knows Tuesday.

That's how me and him got hooked up. And he's become a fixture of the podcast every week breaking down Canadian headlines. But it led me to people like Sunday's construction, which I later learned was Jocelyn and everything else from it, you know? Yeah. And I love that. And I never understood the importance of being, like being able to talk about what is going on in your, in your, in your, kind of like your area of the world and in Canada, but to share that, that perspective

of what you were seeing, because when we first started talking, you know, a lot of the thoughts that I had about what was going on in Manitoba and Canada as a whole, I felt really isolated. Like, I felt like, you know, am I the only one that's actually experiencing this? Am I, am I out here on my own? Am I one woman against the world? And what do we find out? It's like, no, not a chance. It's happening everywhere.

I tell you what, I've been saying this a lot, but since we're in Manitoba, I'm just going to keep saying it. I would never have thought to come spend time in Manitoba. And then you walking me through the map and everything, I'm sure somebody from Saskatchewan could do the exact same thing. They'd be like, well, head up north into Saskatchewan, and this is what you're going to find you're going to find beautiful country. But when you come rolling through Manitoba, most of us go to Winnipeg and go straight on through. very few that I know actually head north or south to see the people on both sides of it have been like super cool the people have been really interesting and friendly and knowledgeable like there's a ton of history in Manitoba which I was kind of not surprised about like it's just when you actually

sit here and start talking to people you're like oh that's huh I guess I didn't really think about that that much manitoba's old like lots of history in Manitoba and where they gateway to the west. We were the gateway to the west. And in a lot of ways, we still are the gateway to the west. And so that's kind of like where that uniqueness from Manitoba comes from. And like I was explaining earlier that in Manitoba, one and four people are indigenous. We have indigenous roots. In Saskatchewan, one in five are indigenous. And so there's a real mix of history here. So let's start with the indigenous thing. That me and you have been talking off air about this, right? The 215 graves and everything has come out about it has spurred on a lot of things across.

You know, X is probably the lightning rod that me and you see. You've had your thoughts on that. Yep. Let's hear them. So in terms of the grave settings and the excavations at Kamloops, what happened, and this is what I've been trying to explain to people is that our government, the federal government, looked at what had just kind of, Now, we just had the change in government, right?

So we'd have the change of government. It was now a Trudeau government. He went out there and said, yes, you know, I'm going to embrace truth and reconciliation. I'm going to embrace all the recommendations from truth and reconciliation. Yes, genocide occurred. Yes, all those things occurred. And he went laser-focused into places like Kamloops. And that's not what Kam started off as.

And indigenous people, whether and friends of mine who are both First Nations, either status or non-status or other Métis people, the first thing we said was, is this going to take away from the real issues that were with residential schools, the real issues with histories, the real issues with treaty rights, the real issues with self-government?

Is this going to take away from that? Because what they did was they laser focused on something that they knew was not solid. They laser focused on one issue and they did it to the exclusion of every single recommendation that was in truth and reconciliation. Truth and reconciliation was real. Manitoba, one and four indigenous. How many of our families were scooped? How many of our families got taken in the 60s scoop?

How many of our families experienced real problems, real problems, really. issues with residential schools that were not day schools on reserve. Tons. A lot of the stories are real. A lot of the experiences are real. But then what happened was that our media and other groups in government, they saw it as an opportunity, and nobody is going to change my mind on this, is that what they did was they co-opted all of those issues. They blew up camloops, and they blew up the graves, and they blew up the entire issue of every child matters, which is absolutely true. Every child does matter. Every single child. And that's what I talk about. Every child does matter. But what happened was that we had an

absolutely impeccable strategy come out of the federal levels. And what was that strategy? How do we weaponize indigenous issues in Canada and divide? How can we destabilize? So you think it's interesting to hear you talk or bring it up that way because you go like, there's a ton of things that could have just went and pointed out like, this is real, this is real, this is real. Instead, they laser focus on something that is on shoddy ground to say the least.

Yes. Then they blow it up. Yeah. Going, there's a good chance this blows up in our face and causes divide. Like, am I reading what you're saying, correct? Right? Like, we all sit out in the west, go, what the heck is going on? You're sitting there going, listen, there's a thousand stories they could have went and talked about and showed the truth.

Instead, they picked the one where it's shoddy at best. if not all out completely false. And I'm just talking about the 215. I'm not talking about the rest. And you go, and then they continue to push on it, which is going to cause anger, dividing of the two populations. And you see that firsthand,

and you go, like, they could take a thousand other stories and there would be a lot of, like, truth and reconciliation there. Instead, they picked the one. They would divide. That would divide. And that's what we're seeing right now. Exactly.

And so what I saw as, everything building up is that if we look at the 2019 federal election, some of the stuff was starting to come out. And then what did we go into a 2021 election after that for a federal election? What happened in 2015, 2019, 2021? The focus between 2019-201? The focus between 2019-209 in 2021 became Kamloops. And what they did was is that that is the time where all of those indigenous

relations, indigenous issues became weaponized. And it was done for political gain because what it did was it inflamed people that don't know. It don't know the history. So if you're in Manitoba and you're in Saskatchewan

with high indigenous ratios of population, we all know. We get it. Like we understood what going and we understand the nuance, we understand the complexity, we have hundreds of years of history here, we totally got it. We totally understood what we were seeing. But when you go further west, that's not the case. And when you go further east, that's not the case. You have very small percentages of indigenous as you go that way, and you have a lot of myths, and you have a lot of ideas about indigenous being freeloaders and all those other things that come along with that. But that's not

the actual reality that exists out there. So when I saw the federal government starting to push the strategy down to media and all the way across every mainstream outlet, there was a bunch of us that said, this is bad. This is going to blow up. And this is going to take all that common ground that was being built. Like you look between 2019, 2021, Pierre Poliav had done an amazing job at reconciling. He was out there, the Conservative Party was out there and they were talking to chiefs and councils. They were talking to various indigenous groups. They were talking to people on the ground. They were talking to grassroots.

And so you had a bridging between the indigenous in Canada and the Conservative Party. We had a bridge that was being built for the first time in how many years a real bridge was being built. common sense issues that are common to indigenous, to rural Canadians, to urban Canadians, the same issues. We all believe in the same things. Same values, same hard work, same ethics, same goals for our children. We want a job. We want land. We want a house.

We want a business. And that was taken away. Systematically, since 2021 to today, that gap between indigenous now and the Conservative Party has been damaged. And it's been damaged incredibly by what's happening in Alberta. And with the idea of separation and those things, the idea of separation for Alberta and self-determination is something that is fundamentally the right to self-determination.

That's an indigenous issue. Right from the get-go, What does every single first nation in Canada want? Ultimately, what do we want? We want self-determination. We want self-government. We want to have respect. We want to be an equal party at the table.

And I don't speak for all indigenous. I speak for me. I'm a lady woman, and I have hundreds of years of history here in Manitoba. But I'm speaking from my experiences and my conversations that I'm talking with other indigenous. and I go all over and I've showed you how many places that I touch and how many places that I, how many people interact with. You've seen the breadth of how big that is. So what I saw, I saw it was a deliberate strategy to divide.

And when the idea of separation came and they first started talking about in Alberta, I saw some good positive messaging that was coming out from like Wilson, Keith Wilson. Keith Wilson had some great commentary on it. Eva had some great Chippiac, is that it? Chipiac, yeah. Eva had some quality comments on that. Keith Wilson had quality comments on that. But then what I saw was I saw something very deliberate. And friends of mine, like indigenous friends that are both First Nation and non-status M.A.T., We've looked at some of the conservative influencers that are out there and some of the messages that they're pushing in BC and in Alberta.

And we're like, this looks like a limited hangout to us. This looks like a real limited hangout because what we're seeing is people that are promoting the idea of self-determination and separatism and like a new way forward or a new agreement with Western Canada and Ottawa. but the way that they're going about it is so catastrophically wrong that it is it's blowing my mind. So let's talk about, man, I'm trying. One of the things if you had never heard of Justin Berziac is she's going to speak at a hundred miles an hour and I'm going to try and rain her in and slow her down. So let's go back for a second to before we get to the independence and everything there in the limited hangout. Let's go back for a second. You were talking about Pierre and building bridges with First Nations.

And you're like, wow, this is actually going to unite us. We have all these common things. And you're seeing a party at the federal level building bridges for the first time in your life. I think is basically what you were saying. Not in my life, but the first time where the idea of having a conservative government, they could bridge the issues with indigenous people, I think that idea was the first time that had gone mainstream. in decades.

Okay. So when you go back and you, so when you tie that in with and then they pick Camloops, instead of picking things that would have made sense in your mind, you're like, man, we're sitting here and we're going, why are they picking that one?

Because it's going to blow up the way it has. Now you have the Francis Whittleson and, man, I'm spacing on probably a whole bunch of other names. Francis just comes really to top of mind, but you have the whole thing, debacle with CBC, C and APTN.

Which is terrible. Right. And all the things coming out and it's just splitting the vibe even further and further. Yes.

Do you look at that then and go like oh, this is orchestrated? Not the Francis Whittowson part. Because if it wasn't Francis Whittowson, it probably would have been somebody else. Exactly. And how they've attacked it

from a liberal government standpoint to fracture the conservative party, their nemesis. And they've been successful. From a part of the voting block, which would be First Nations, because you can't have things get united. You can't have things go smoothly. You look at it and go, no, they had to step in and throw an absolute hand grenade in there to blow up what they were building. Well, look at it. Look at it from logically,

because I see big picture. Look at what Biden did and Obama did in the United States. Look at the strategy that was used to inflame tensions that never really, really, really, were there on a large scale. When you say Biden and Obama, tell me specifically what you mean. Well, we look at the rise of Black Life Matters. Look at how those organizations were co-opted out of other actual leftists movements that might occupy.

They took George Floyd and made it a huge movement that crossed borders, I might add. And then everybody was like, basically blacks are mistreated. inflamed racial division over something that most people are like, what are you talking about? Actually, you know, it's funny because the amount of people I've ran into Manitoba, but this isn't just Manitoba.

This goes to Saskatchewan, Alberta, and I bet it goes right across Canada. They'll say, listen, I'm not racist, but there is a ton of immigrants here. Yes. And the amount of Americans that are running into them that started with, I'm not racist, but, and that has happened because of things like George Floyd. It's happened because of the influx of immigrants coming in and causing problems. It's chaos, right? But it's, there's so, it.

So that's political games playing out in front of the average person. Yeah, so when I look at it is that when I first started getting into, like, you know, talking to people in X and, and delving into, like, you know, political ideology and movements and those things, I'm fairly apolitical. Like, I have, I'm very conservative. in some ways, but in other ways, I'm not. I mean, I have an indigenous background, and that's just, and I'm a woman, I'm in construction.

I mean, I have a pretty different slate. Oh, you're a fun guest, yes. Yeah, you have a very interesting background, right? You can speak on a lot of different topics, but specifically when you're looking at the politics of Canada, you might be one of the first people to tell me, and I'm probably, forgive me to all my guests, but in recent time, you're, you're, you're, you're,

you're taking limited hangout, which I believe is an American term. I want to go into some of the commentators in that realm. But regardless, and applying it to Canada and going, this feels like a limited hangout. And you're looking right at independence. And I go, huh, that's interesting.

Because from where I sit in Alberta, I go, it just seemed like it was the most natural thing. The day before the election, I went, if Carney wins, which it feels like at the time, you know, when we did our election live stream, I wrote up, my prediction was a liberal minority. I couldn't believe I was writing it on paper. I'm like, but all my research tells me that's where we're heading. And then we got the liberal minority. Yep. In my heart, I went and two hours after that, 30 seconds after that, Alberta Independence is going to go through the roof because people are done. They're done with all the

things. Rightfully so. And now you sitting in Manitoba look at it and have a different thing. You're like it just feels like a limited hangout. So when you say a limited hangout, what are the things being said and done where you're like, people need to pay attention to this? So one of the things that really struck me as odd because like I said, Keith Wilson in particular, even Jeffrey Roth, because he's had a huge history of representing First Nations and different court cases and things like that. I looked at the legal minds that were talking about the viability of independence and they were spot on. They really are spot on in the way they viewed it and things like that. Me coming from the background that I did and I have such a fundamental core part of me

believes in self-determination is that as a person, as a May 2 woman, as an indigenous person, have the right to self-determination. And in Manitoba, I'm fortunate because I am part of the MMF and we have a self-government treaty. We have a treaty with the government of Canada. And I know what it feels like to be encompassed within that, which is a totally amazing feeling. It's not perfect, but it is an amazing feeling. Can we pause right there because I think, you know, part of our discussion, I have to bring the audience back in on that because we've been talking all day, right? And so when you talk about being a Métis woman, you got to give the history of when Métis, you know, they weren't allowed to have their names, they were kicked up, right? Because like that's an important part. When you just say, yeah, well, I'm a Métis woman,

like all these things that's important to me, there's history that I think not only Albertans, but Canadians, you know, that want self-determination, that want the government to leave them alone. it's like we should be learning from each other on some of the things we've gone through. And in your lineage, I think that's an important part of the story of when you say I'm a Méti woman. Well, what do you mean by that? Because people need to understand. In our family and my family from my father's side and my mother's side of the family. Really from my father's side.

My father's side is that the men in our family came with Lord Selkirk to the original Red River settlement as part of these Selkirk settlers, but also prior to that as the as fur traders as part of the Northwest and Hudson's Bay Company. So that many of the men in my family traveled down and they came down from northern Manitoba. They came through York Landing. They came through Norway House and they traveled Lake Winnipeg down to what is now the the Lock Porch, Lower Fork area region and the the Winnipeg area where they were establishing the trade networks. The fur trade is what was the gateway to Western Canada, Winnipeg, Selkirk, Lockport, Petersfield, all these communities where you're sitting in right now, this was the hub. This is where all of that trade and economic boom was

happening. And when the men came, they took Indian wives. And they created familial ties to multiple communities. So from that, and many of them were French, and some of them were Scottish, and some of them were Irish, and some of them were English. But what happened was that that created an entire segment, a distinct group of people, a distinct group of indigenous in Canada. Well, the interview that's two before you, Mike Fast, was talking about a similar thing in South Africa with black, white, and colored,

and how they were distinct things. Now, he was talking about it from a Christian standpoint in churches and how they had black churches, white churches, and colored churches. Now they didn't interact. And he was talking about how they started to interact with one of each other and started to create ties to one another. So when you talk about the English, the French,

all these different groups of men coming over and starting to take wives that were in. Indian and create familial ties, I can see how, you know, and I just get that, I guess. And it ties into an interview. I literally just did in Manitoba. So carry on. So literally, my family, we were officially listed on the Register of Halfbreeds. That's how Manitoba rolled at that point in time before it was a province.

We were, we were, we were, that's how we refer to. and so but these men these men weren't just they weren't just you know employees of the hudson's bay or northwest territories and they weren't just settlers they were creating relationships they were building bridges between multiple first nations and multiple communities and they were creating their own language their own culture this distinct segment of what mayti mayti people are and it's it's a rich history of what that is. But the Métis were the ones in Manitoba that led the first successful and the only successful rebellion in Canada. And that's where Manitoba came from. So here at Lower Fort Gary, when the first massacre occurred, when the Orangeman came from Ontario into Manitoba and across

from Selkirk, and they murdered and they massacred women and children and the men that were on the side of the that side of the river, that led to the first rebellion here in Manitoba. And there was a lot of things that led up to it. What was happening was that the railroad was starting to come through. The Métis were given script, which means that they were given blocks of land, about 160 acres per individual that was listed as Métis. We were on the register of Halfbreeds. And I showed you that century farm, 1882. That is where that came from. So that was, was Scripp land and it's still being farmed by my family today, 1882 to today. So when we look at those things is that so as the rail line was coming through,

they were buying up Métis script all the way along, but sometimes they weren't buying the Métis script. Sometimes they were taking the Métis script forcefully, burning out the families, taking the script, and moving along West to build out that railroad. And that's Sir John A. That's part of the legacy of Sir John A that doesn't get talked about. So the Métis were disenfranchised in Manitoba, and they were disenfranchised in Saskatchewan.

And they were led by Louis Riel. And you had people both on the inside of the forts and a part of the Hudson's Bay Company that were sympathetic to the Métis cause and the Métis idea of being disenfranchised. And that led to the first rebellion with Louis Riel. And Luriel became our first premier. and the successful resolution of that rebellion was the creation of Manitoba. We became a province and we became a part of Canada. With Louis Riel, I assume he united the people of Manitoba.

I mean, before it was Manitoba, but like the people that were upset with being burned out of their lands and forcefully taken. And then I assume when you're talking about the orange men coming, that they were upset that they weren't getting out of the way of the rail. railway. And they were like, well, everybody dies then. And they just walked in. And I assume that created, you know, I just, you go to like something like COVID. There became a distinct group of people. Yes. That were upset with their government. And it ended or became very notorious, famous, take your pick. The convoy. The convoy. And that was the people that showed up and went, this is over. And the leader of that, whether you take different people that you think let it, they

became Tamara Leach and Chris Barber. Lightning rods. They became the lightning rods up. Louis Reel back then. Was a lightning rod. Was a lightning rod that became the voice of that group of people of like this cannot stand. And I assume he united that group of people to stand against it. He united a core group.

But there were people on both sides of it because not everybody is going to do that. Some people were scared. And some people chose not to or some people had reasons not to take part. take part in the rebellion and some people that were that he was an absolute lightning round for him because Louisville actually left when he wasn't able to take his seat in parliament

he actually ended up leaving he went to the states went to Montana and started a life there and then there's been things about it said about him like going into madness and things like that or delusions but he was convinced to come back to lead the second rebellion

in Saskatchewan because as the problems that were in Manitoba moved into Saskatchewan, which would have still been Rupert's land at that point in time, because they were not established, and the rest of the treaties were being signed, the original 10 treaties were still being expanded outward to Alberta during that time frame. So he was a lightning rod for the second rebellion, in which he was caught and he was, he was hung. But he wasn't just hung. He was dismembered. He was dismembered.

He was dismembered, and his body was scattered. and there's stories about how locks of his hair and other things were taken as trophies by RC&P and things like that. So that type of history, whether it would happen 100 years ago, 200 years ago, but you know that as a particular people, you know that brutality exists when it comes from a government, right? You know what a government is capable. You have, it's just like this long, it's almost like a genetic memory.

that you have of that. So you're taught through the generations what your history is. And so that becomes an internal core of who you are. And so those that embraced who they are, you have that fire 200 years later. What was the defining point of the first rebellion in order to get Manitoba recognized? What ended up, what were like what events took place in order for that to become a thing? So what happened was is that when they took the fort, it was a negotiated release. So they did hang one of the orangemen. And when I talk about orangemen, I talk about that's a form of organized militia at that point of time that would have been organized underneath the Canadian government.

So they would have been, sometimes they were regular men. Sometimes they had training prior, but they became, they formed a militia a lot like you see in the United States, those types of militias. And so the orangemen, as they were referred to, when they came across, and they, they did kill as many as they did and the fort was taken over now the fort was the center of economic activity to the west they had to negotiate with manitoba because again we were the gateway to the west unless they settled the manitoba question and the and the the the lue rile uprising they weren't going to be able to expand west yeah they weren't going to be able to

take their railway left yeah so and because the canadian government like you might call that a pressure point. And I feel like Tuse is saying Daniel Smith has the same opportunity with Ottawa right now. Yeah. And and I feel she, I feel bad for her because she's in a tough spot. She's in a tough spot. She has a lot to try, try and manage that it's underneath her plate with that. And it's, I don't know if the indigenous question is, is helping her position or if it's hurting her position. I haven't been able to, to figure that out. yet, but what I see. Yeah, so once again, the reason I wanted you to talk a bit about the history is because, like,

it just when you say a Métis, it's like, well, there's a ton of history there that's very important to the West. So we only chose this. We chose this. So Canada has a history. We already have a history is that of whether or not we were, we could have separated and created our own, but Louis Riel chose to create Manitoba. Well, I wonder, I would, I'd be very curious to have been in the boardrooms back then when they decided to join Confederation.

And, and, you know, and whether Louis could sit here right now and look at what Canada's become, it's changed, right? Like, there's been a ton of change probably since his time, obviously since his time. But then in the last, you know, 11 going on 12 years, a liberal government. And people will argue longer than that. Yeah. Canada is becoming a strange place. And yet, I mean, I just came from Cleefeld, Manitoba, where it was lovely. It was insanely enjoyable.

And there are parts all over Canada. They're just like that. But then you go to Winnipeg Beach and it's immigrants everywhere. You go to Sylvan Lake in one of the most popular beaches in Alberta. It's immigrants everywhere. Am I against immigrants? Obviously not. But when it's so stark, you can just see it with your own eyes.

people are starting to question the direction the government's been heading. And a lot have been a question for a long time. Yeah. And the biggest question that for the people are having is when you're looking at that massive influx of immigration, is that indigenous are looking at this and they're saying, do we have a reason to be concerned in terms of the displacement of some of the historical issues that still need to be resolved in Canada? you've been fighting for for a very long time. And and and and first nations the groups that I've

worked with just brilliant constitutional minds and I look at these things and I look at it and I'm like their their issues they're the very valid issues have been pushed down and a lot of that has been part of what the reason why that's happening I think is it's happening alongside of this discontent of the economical pressures that this mass influx of immigration has had. So as people have no jobs, they're displaced from jobs, they have no housing, they have no affordable housing, their children can't get a job. Cost of living is going way up. Access to health care has become a huge problem. That puts a massive stress on any population.

But when you add that stress to the indigenous population, it's even greater because now they're seeing as historical grievances that were on the road to resolution now took a second, like a back seat almost to some of these other things. And I think our government has very strategically taken those issues and they've been able to turn the tables to be able to. to do that. They, it's interesting because I'm, I think what a lot of people see is a lot of money being earmarked for indigenous. Yes. And so they see that as what are we what are we talking about? There's so much money going. It's become billions of dollars being sent to first nations. Yes. What are you talking about? Jocelyn? There is this is a win for you. Like what are we talking about at this point where you're talking about well actually no maybe i don't know this is actually i'm glad you brought this up because this is perfect um i actually had this conversation on excel just a couple days ago

do you want me to let your dog in pardon me do you want me she's crying to come in she's i can let her in if you want you can't keep talking keep talking so we had we had the uh we had this uh come on in Somebody had asked me a little while ago, and they said it's that, you know, $30 to $50 billion is going to First Nations and Indigenous across Canada on a yearly basis. And I said, okay, I said, but I'm going to reframe that. 30 to $50 billion per year gets earmarked for First Nations and Indigenous. So you're talking about Mady groups and Inuit and everything else. So that's all of Canada, $30 to $50 billion. Okay.

That covers health care. That covers education, the schools, it covers infrastructure, water treatment plants, sewage treatment plants, operational budgets, and everything else in between. How much money was allocated to municipalities and cities and local government. across Canada on a yearly basis. $128 billion for operational funds only. And then if you look at school taxes and education and what was the educational bill for education across Canada, you're looking at another $130 billion.

And then you have to go and look at what was the health care budget, not including Indigenous was another $400 billion. So people look at the earmark to Indigenous because it comes from one funding source. Federal Government versus a treaty formula that goes to the First Nations and that goes out to other self-government agreements and things like that, that gets the flows on that. but municipalities they get their money from property taxes, federal government, provincial government, and you see how that money flows. Now, where does the provincial government get its money from?

Local taxation, sales tax, other types of levies and fees that they do taxation throughout, and then federal government transfer payments. So when people talk about the indigenous do this and the indigenous do that and that, the same, almost the same value per person in Canada is very similar. It's going to per person to indigenous per person per average Canadian. The funding streams are different.

You know it's the one group in Canada that totally gets fucked over? Rural Canadians. versus any other group in Canada. Why? Because they have to build. They have no infrastructure to connect to. They pay exorbitant property taxes. They pay sales tax. They pay income tax. They pay every other tax. And they get very little benefit that comes back out of it. So they actually fund a huge amount of taxation in Canada and businesses do the rest of the taxation. And then people talk to me and they say it is that what did they oh what's one i just got oh well what about indigenous they don't pay any taxes they get all this money for free well actually that's not true the majority of indigenous in

canada on reserve and off reserve pay property taxes so if you have a house off reserve you're paying property taxes you are paying sales tax you're paying income taxes you're paying every other taxes exactly the same way. If you live on reserve and 90% of your income is from wages that are earned on reserve only, you have under the Indian Act, I think it's Section 87 of the Income Tax Act. You are exempt from paying GST, PST on purchases, and your income tax is not, you're considered exempt. That is a very small percentage, very, very small percentage. So the vast majority of indigenous in Canada are paying exactly the same taxes that you or anybody else pays. But then we get the comment back is that, oh, you're indigenous. You don't pay for anything. You don't pay taxes. Like,

oh my God. We may have. access to a few programs where maybe we can get, you know, access a little bit easier entry into university or do colleges or we might get part of our education supported in that, which is based on grade point average, by the way, hats merit based. Imagine that. So there's, this is the other side of the, of the house is that I went through an indigenous program to go to university for engineering. I paid my tuition. Nobody paid my tuition. Nobody paid my tuition. for me. I paid for my books and everything else. And same thing with my son. You know, Jocelyn, it's like, well, this is why people like listening to your talk, right?

Because and why I'd talk to a First Nation man. This isn't a long time ago. So like, how do we fix the relationship? And he said, oh, you got to come out. You have to start talking to people, right? It helps running into you because I like a woman who speaks. I like people, but a woman who speaks their mind because I'm like, this is just easy to read. Yeah. So going back to how does this fit into separation and separatism, why do we say it's a limited hangout? And why are indigenous people? Grassroots indigenous people.

People that are on the ground and just like me, just like anybody else of my friends, we're looking at this and we're looking at it and we're like all we're hearing coming from and it may not be. Well, it's insidious. Wait, but actually I want to hear. What are you hearing first? That's what I wanted to hear. So the limited hangout, because what happened is that for indigenous people, and you can go on to X or or Facebook or even around family dinner tables, because I've actually had it happen. Sure. And people come back to me and say, oh, you know what? I was reading this and this and this. And the indigenous got, you know, this much money.

And they're, they're just, they're, they're, you know, sucking the tit to the Canadian taxpayer. And they are, they're doing this. And then I saw something inserted into that. And first it was about money and economics. But then I saw something that was inserted in BC and Alberta. It was an attack on the actual cultural beliefs of indigenous people. So now, for the first time in my whole life growing up, I was never referred to as a savage before. I was never referred to as barbaric.

I was never referred to as uncultured. I was never once told that, you know, it is that we had, we didn't know science or math. Well, this is interesting because on your, okay, so on your end, you're seeing language. And for that, it's savage. Yeah. And what was the other one you said? Savage, uncultured, barbaric. Okay.

And on my end, one of the things I applauded Daniel Smith when I interviewed her is we got called traitors. people that that were even thinking about separation, independence, as traitors. And we saw it from lots of not only media, but leaders. Yes. And then she was like, I'm not going to call these people traitors. That is, we're talking about like a chunk of my, you know, like 30% of my population that I represent. I'm not going to do that. That's a ridiculous thing.

And, you know, I was saying to you when we're chatting back and forth before I got here through text, I was like, I don't even notice that. But now that you mentioned Savage, it's funny, as an everyday average person that I think I am, I saw a couple of those. I'm like, that's ridiculous. And I just kept like going through, you know, I don't spend any time. But just like some other people would say, yeah, the trader thing, that was ridiculous. And I just kind of scroll on it.

But I, oh, let's hold there for a second. It's a traitor. Well, and it came from prominent people. Yes. For me, when a premier says they're traders, I'm like, that isn't Bob, from down the street saying it. So in this limited hangout, you're saying you're watching influencers start to position it.

And the reason, well, I don't know if this is the reason. I can't speak for anybody. Because I've never had this conversation, obviously, and certainly not on the language of it. But one of the things that happened with the independence movement is they collected all the signatures. Yep. And then a group of First Nations chiefs said,

listen, we weren't consulted. And it got it held up in court. And what everybody got frustrated with is like, wait a second, you're going to pick on that one, but not the forever Canada petition. That doesn't make sense because nobody consulted you there either. And so that was a sticking point, a dividing point of the hypocrisy of like, well, if you're going to call out one, then call it both. But you can't just call out one.

Yes, that's cognitive dissonance. You, and this is what frustrates me so much, is that we see the same situation, the same dynamics, may be presented between two different groups of people. I look at whether we're looking at the United States blacks, we're looking at indigenous in Canada, I'm looking at immigrant populations, I'm looking at established Canadian families, established Canadian businesses.

I see everything through the lens of, is this cognitive dissonance? Is this the same situation? Why don't the same rules apply? And I'm kind of like a purist that way in terms of being, like, for me, that is a source of ethics, is that every situation should have, if it's the same situation, the reaction should be the same, or similar, right?

And I was seeing that that was being changed, and it was being massaged, and it was being, things were being promoted. So what I saw from influencers, especially conservative influencers, on the independent side, is that they were putting out tweets or posts on X and in other groups that even though they may not have directly, well, some of them do it directly too, the comments that were produced as a result, how do I put this? They were seating comments.

This is a perfect analogy. They would put out a post. And a post could be taken one way or the, the other way is this inflammatory, is this not inflammatory, am I walking the line of inflammatory? And the comment would drive pro-independent sentiments, but at the same time what it was doing is it was seeding the comments that were referring to indigenous as savages that were as subhuman. And you can see that.

And Francis Whittison, that particular one, that, if there was one situation that absolutely completely shocked indigenous people as to the volume of the rhetoric. I think that was it. Like, because it was, you see comments that came out of that, that were inflammatory, and they were not attacking the valid concerns with Aboriginal title and Andrip and how those are being changing Canadian law. and what are the long-term impacts for Canadian property owners and property ownership should be solid. That is, you know, and courts have said that throughout,

like you see court decisions that happen on the other side when it comes to Aboriginal title versus that. The courts have said is that we need to handle this delicately because people that have established property, we need to be able to, it's not going to promote reconciliation if we start seizing people's property and that. So it's a very delicate conversation that has to be had. And there's other ways to address historical issues.

And the courts have said this flat out. They have been very careful as to how they've said that, especially the Eastern Canada decisions have been phenomenal in their perspective. On the West Coast, right, we're seeing a very different thing go on there. Because the laws were changed. BC is different. BC ratified UNRIP. And they integrated it into Canadian law in the province of Manitoba.

So, and all of BC is unseated. In your conversations with your group of friends, when you watch what's happened in BC, are they like, well, that's awesome? Or is that like, what are they doing? Like with undripp and all that, specifically to that, to going back, you know, the seven generations to find we fished in this village,

And that gives us property rights over whoever has it right now. Like in your conversations with your group of friends, is it like I know my conversation. I'm like, if this carries on, I'm like, where does this get Canada to? In your group here, what are your thoughts? So there's two issues here. So the first issue is that a lot of. We'll back up one second. The provincial government of BC for decades has kicked that fucking can down the road.

They had the ability to be able to negotiate with every single one of those First Nations in British Columbia and create modern treaties. Because to fill in a blank at least on my brain is one of the things that separates BC from say Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, they minus in a couple places don't have signed treaties with all the tribes? No, yeah, they don't have modern treaties. So when JWR, before she was elected to government,

she was actively working on the land claim issues in BC. She was working with First Nations in BC and kind of working towards a solution towards that unseeded question because of what it did to property titles and things like that. That was always been a real issue and

that was on her radar, right? well before 2015. Well. And she had some solid solutions, and the files that she worked were actually meaning, bringing progress closer to that end. So then the BC question would have been answered, settled, and it would have been integrated into Canadian law. In, for the original 10 treaties across northwest Ontario, Manitoba, Manitoba being where

the first treaties were, Saskatchewan. in Alberta. We have the original 10 treaties. Those treaties were signed. Those treaties aren't perfect, but they are a part of the Canadian constitutional basis. They are, those treaties are rock solid and every single court decision goes back and references those treaties on a constitutional and charter basis. So when we talk about treaty rights, why treaty rights are important, is that it gives the indigenous an opportunity to argue a case on the merits of charter and constitution. Those treaties are recognized under the Canadian government, or Canadian law. It's a part of the fabric of Canada.

It is what it is. Treaties are not the Indian Act. People have to remember those are two different issues. So when we look at BC, a lot of us look to. at it, what was happening in BC and we're like, that is a god-awful storm that is coming. And that is going to destabilize BC. It is going to destabilize the economy in BC. There is so much investment in BC. Is that going to chase investment out of Canada? We were looking at what was coming in in terms of all the NGOs that were really supporting

the indigenous within BC. And what we saw was there. there was a lot of interplay. So when people look at the dynamics between the various First Nations in BC, you have to understand is that some have, some have negotiated really well. Some have had fantastic negotiators and have been able to create good agreements. Some haven't. And some get a lot of funding from outside groups, whether that's American interests or foreign interests across the board. And some of the First Nations have probably strategically said, if the Canadian government and the BC government is going to keep kicking this issue down the road and they're never going to settle and they're never going to bring in a modern

treaty system, what are our options? Burn it all down. And if you're in Western Canada and you're looking at this, you're going, well, I'm never going, I'm never going to buy anything. I don't know of anyone who's going to buy any property in BC anytime, Sarah. I look at that. And, you're And I'm just, I just... Isn't it wild? Even with all your background, I'm sitting here and I go, this is so cool. Like, you're literally looking at it the same way I looked at it. And because that's the actual fact of it.

Now, so I've given you the history leading up to it is that the reason why it got to this point is because the federal government and the BC government... Wouldn't settle. But they not even wouldn't settle. They wanted the status quo. They thought that the status quo was going to be peaches and cream forever. They thought that they could continue to pay the royalties out on the mining and all the other projects that were there. And this was going to be perfect.

But can I ask? It's sickening. Curious, your thought. Man, I'm enjoying this. I hope everybody else is enjoying it. Like, when you look at Canada, sitting where I sit in Alberta, you know, like everybody knows it started in COVID. I was like, what is going on? You know.

and we went to the Freedom Convoy and he came back and you watched and a ton of people said Pierre's not the answer and I at the time roughly had thought yeah they could be true but I mean anything is better than what we currently have

and it could put us on just a slightly different trajectory maybe not I had lots of people around me saying you know we need another liberal government because people need to understand how quickly we're going down the toilet if we're ever going to fix us.

Well, we got our liberal government. We got Kearney. I don't think we're fixing it. And you don't think there's any fixing it. Not anymore. I think if Pierre would have got in, Pierre might have been able to stem something before it got too far. Point to no return.

Okay. So then, Jocelyn, Métis woman construction superstar of Manitoba, fighting the federal government every step of the way, you look at this and you go, you're sitting in Manitoba. You're like, there's no fixing it. Okay. So then are you for what Alberta is doing? Or are you against what Alberta is doing?

Because where I sat is like as soon as I used to think of myself as Canada first, full stop. I actually agree with the interview right before you where she's like, the idea of Canada is a majestic idea. It's a beautiful idea. And somewhere maybe from the very beginning or somewhere along that, you know, our history, power politics, human beings, whatever. corruption take your pick of words just started to play itself out it has been if you go back and read some of the accounts from first nations they were probably the first to be absolutely harassed by

big government yep and what they wanted and they burned down everything to get you've already shared some of that but you you get to where you're like there's no fixing it okay so are you for what albert is trying to do because from their standpoint this may be the way to save canada this may be the way to shake it up or cut some of the ties and force things to happen. Do you think it's possible that it's a good thing or I don't know, your thoughts? My first thought is what am I for? 100% I'm for self-determination. So if the people of Alberta vote and they vote in that referendum that the majority of Albertans want to choose another path, that belongs. to them. That absolutely belongs to them. It would be wonderful if, and because remember, I served in the

military for 22 years. I kind of forgot about that. That's going back to our first conversation. Yeah, like there's me in uniform over there. I'm uniform on the wall. Like, I mean, and I've got, you know, a CD and everything else, and I served. It's where the spit and fire comes. You know, it would be fun, having you on a military roundtable i remember telling you that once upon a time too oh yeah when you come out to saskatchew and you know like zane southgate was just here and he stopped at uh james sinclair's on his way back we should do a jami i know you're listening we should do a a military round table and get jocelyn in on that do it at the campground in the future some point in time but regardless carry on i loved everything about um being um um um um

a Canadian woman in uniform. I loved my career. I loved everything about it, even when it was hard. I loved that career. I loved my queen. I loved my country. That was inside of me. But 220, 221, 222, that changed something in me.

What I discovered is that maybe the Ottawa government doesn't love us. Maybe the idea of everything that we give, we have no love in return. And then I go back to my Maity roots and when Louis Rial fought to bring Manitoba into Confederation because he wanted a better future for the people of Manitoba, all of those people of Manitoba. And it didn't matter whether they were First Nation, whether or not they were Métis, whether or not they were settlers. All he wanted was for a fresh start and a new dream for Manitoba. And so I kind of looked at that. But what I've seen is historically, the Western Canada gets,

a raw deal. And it doesn't, you know, the raw deal could be mitigated by good government. So if you have good government in Ottawa and ethics prevail in Ottawa, then Canada works. I think we're at the point of people wanting to separate because government in Ottawa failed, the idea that we could work, we could prosper, we could have, you know, essay in government. But when you were in Manitoba, and I know that I'm not even going to be done voting yet, and the decision is already going to be made, you know how demoralizing that is? And you fight so hard, like in the last election, I was a scrutineer. In fact, my husband was a scrutiny, my foreman was a scrutinier. My son was a scrutiny, you know, and we all took part in that. Like, we all took part

in the process, like we always do. Because we wanted to be a part of that. We wanted to see the change. I've done loads of the rallies with Pierre Pahliav, and I've spoken to him. And I've had some, and my other members of parliament. And I try to engage in local government. I try to engage in provincial government and federal government. I want to believe that the system can work. I want to believe that. And I try very hard. And I pour everything into trying to believe that it can work. But then you realize that it only works if the party that is in power is ethical. And they're going to play by the rules. So the norms of parliament, are they going to follow those rules? Are they going to game the system? Are they continue going to squander taxpayer dollars? And it gets hard for me to be able to understand

that. Like when I have friends and family and neighbors that are going to food banks every day, like every week, and they don't have jobs and they can't pay for things and they're losing homes, having that faith in in in in in in in Ottawa becomes very difficult so then when you look at the idea of of western separation you look at that and you say okay is this potentially maybe a shot at what luria was talking about is this the 200 years later is this the new deal is this the the the new dream for some people it could be absolutely and they're hanging on to hope that maybe that's that's a new dream so i look at it is that i want people to choose their their future and they're and and if they were to vote for independence

and in Alberta i would absolutely respect that choice because those people made that choice it's what they want no different than any other place in the world and then they would have to go through the same thing you do you do your consultation with first nations and indigenous groups and and find a way to be able to coexist in maybe a better way. And there's processes that describe how that has to work and the process is already laid out there. So consultation and those things will have to happen. And then Alberta will have to choose. But I mean, is it time that somebody rattles that on a really, in a real way? Because in how many years since Canada's existed,

how many times in history has it actually ever come close to Canada separating? You can say that Quebec was that in one way. 95, yeah. And that was a bit of a constitutional crisis, but that constitutional crisis wasn't felt in the West

the same way that this is. I think Alberta is, Alberta is what's probably saying to Ottawa right now, holy shit, they're serious. And how are we going to deal with this? Well, how the federal government decide they're going to deal with it? I think is as relations are inflamed with those Alberta chiefs and BC chiefs and indigenous and as racial tensions are weaponized and as propaganda,

prevails and as social media is used to insert some really nasty comments and propaganda is seated, I think the federal government will come back and they will use the Aboriginal question and the Aboriginal issues as a way to destabilize the independence movement. And I think that's what's happening. BC is a totally different issue. I think BC might actually have the potential to separate before Alberta. And that's that, because you look at that. I mean, I mean, I think BC's going, B.C. is going to desabilize Alberta with what's going on.

But, you know, he's going to be first, not go back, B.C., B.C., northern B.C. is going, hell yeah, Jocelyn. That's right. But if you were to talk to those people, you talk to the, you talk to the, the residents and that BC residents like the average they're like well you think

you just go to like I've been getting asked a lot by people who don't listen the podcast on the road trip what's your podcast about I'm like oh politics and I can just see them doing mental math and they're like

and where do you stand and I'm like well I'll stand on what? You know what do you stand on? I bet there's a lot we agree on. And BC, I think for a lot of people, no matter where you sit on the political spectrum, if where you live, you no longer own. You're going to explode.

I think you're going to explode. And so I don't think you're off on that thought process. You know, sticking on Alberta, though, because as much you want to talk BC independence, I chuckle. I mean, October 19th, they got a referendum. You know, we've got a referendum coming. The destabilization of a movement, we've seen it through COVID. Yep. They tried very hard to paint the Freedom Convoy as a bunch of different things

and trying the propaganda, just the labeling. The lawfare. All these different things. We're watching it right now in real time with Jeffrey Roth. Well, with Jeffrey Rath. Even the court proceedings on the counting of the votes, right? Now they're going to count it, or while they already have, sorry, and that's come out, but we're not going to use it for anything, you know,

because now there's a, you know, it's just to the everyday average person, you have to stop, take the emotion out of it. This is me. Put it aside. Look at your emotion. Go, why am I upset about this? If I would have gone back a couple of years, not even. When this first started, Mitch Sylvester started the,

this is what we're going to do in the time frame and everything else. My logical brain said, if they ever get to where they currently sit right now, I'll be the referendums a little different than what they wanted. Like the attacks are going to be insane. And they're only going to get worse every step of the way. So we shouldn't get so emotional when they try and use First Nations, the judicial system, other means to attack it.

It's like, yeah, folks, that's what's going to happen. You knew who raised exactly what we're talking about today. In a podcast you had with Alex Criner, was that six months ago? Maybe about... Let's say six months ago. So it was the last podcast that I heard with you and Alex Craneer. So if that was six months ago... Well, no, that'd probably be less than that because I think he was on right before we left for the trip or roughly, probably three months ago.

So, and you guys were talking about the referendum and you were talking about what was going to come up. And you guys are talking about how is the federal government going to respond? And Alex right out said, straight out the gate, he said, and I don't know if you remember that, he said, expect violence. Yeah. He said expect things to get exponentially worse. And, you know, that listening to that, you know, Alex talk about it. He's not Canadian. He's European.

You're originally from Croatia. Yeah. And now he lives in Monaco. and he comes on the podcast, usually with Tom Luongo, albeit the one that me and Tom just did, he couldn't be on. And that sucks because it's always fun to have those two together, regardless. So he's got a great perspective. Like, he has got such a wide perspective, and he is so knowledgeable. And he's just, he's got a different perspective than a lot of people.

Like he is, like, I love Alex and his ability to be able to, to make you see another. side of things and like, oh, that's interesting. And so then when Alex said that, it just something twigged. And that's when I said, and I actually said it to a couple of my friends on an ex and that that we talked to all the time. And doesn't this feel like a limited hangout?

I said, and I was talking about the podcast. I was talking about Alex and I was talking about some of the things he said leading up to this and that, doesn't this feel like this, the less. level of attacks that are coming out, don't they feel kind of scripted? Don't they feel like they're being guided or they're being pushed, like they're kept within these guardrails and that they're turning the idea of separation and referendum into a racial issue? Don't you feel like, like once again, the indigenous issues are being co-opted so that they can serve federal

government needs? That's what it feels like. And because I never heard some of the the commentary that I'd heard before leading out to that. People that had stood side by side with me working on various, you know, indigenous issues and provincial issues and things like that, where they were so inflamed by the rhetoric, come back and say to me, you guys are all just takers anyways. And I'm like, whoa, where did that come from? Where did that that that idea of indigenous being only takers come from so people that what i'm seeing is a breakdown of community within these like indigenous non-indigenous groups and things like that and so you see that and i'm like very smart people being pushed down that route now had they stayed on just the

idea of corruption because you know me i've been talking about corruption on procurement for indigenous projects and the the ineffectiveness of how it's procured and how these projects are run I have I have posted the goods I have posted receipts on it I have been doing this for years for a decade I have been talking about corruption and the misallocation of funds and the improper use of federal dollars yes yes I'll let you finish your thought. I want to make sure I don't lose this thought.

No, so here I am saying is that, you know what, if they approach the idea of, you know, when you're dealing with indigenous groups and you're talking about, let's just track the dollars and let's talk about accountability and things like that. And if they had done that, but focused on all the responsible parties,

which would be the federal government, ISC, third-party consultants, and the local level. What right now is that how the message got turned around is that federal government, Treasury, ISC, third-party consultants, engineer, general contractor, First Nation. That's kind of like how in the, how they kind of get dealt with because all of these levels are delivering down to First Nation. It may show is that the First Nation is being the owner of a project, and they would be up here, but the reality of it is that they sit at the bottom.

They're not. They're simply a flow through, and they don't control the vast majority of the dollars on those projects. And people asked for all the capital projects. So, and this is something that has come out. The Auditor General has said this. there's been a lot of investigations. All of that, let's go back to the $50 billion in indigenous funding. For capital projects, how much of the capital project dollars are bled off due to inefficiency

from the government, the inefficient program delivery, and third-party consultants? It's about 30 to 35 percent of those dollars. So if the operational budget of, say we're looking at $50 billion, the operational budget for all First Nations comes out to about $15 billion. The other $25 to $35 million are billion, capital projects and other forms of delivery. So let's take $25 billion. One third of that $25 billion allocation earmarked for First Nations indigenous projects. was bled off and didn't actually deliver any value to the project that was happening on the ground. That's where my focus has been for a decade or more, is that I wanted to tighten up the

number and get that to a reasonable number and try to fix that problem. So when we started talking about all these new issues, everything that's coming up right now and people are so upset with with that. What happened was is that almost every single major conservative influencer, what did they do? They focused on

the chiefs being corrupt, councils being corrupt. To a T, how many do we look at and how many of those conservative influencers, how many of them tied it back to the federal government? How many talked about the 30 to

35 percent? So what do you make of that then? Because like I know a lot of the conservative. I know you do. And so this is what I was, this is what I was trying, I was trying to hold on to this thought because I'm like, how do you call them a limited hangout? How do you look at them and see?

Well, no, it's, it's, how do you? So like, I think about myself, okay? I think of, I go back on Alberta independence and First Nations. I'm going to say the first time I broached the subject. was a Bruce Party Jeff Rath interview. Yeah. And sorry, Jeff, at the time, you called him a communist and everything, and if he was a paid plant and everything.

And at the time, I just was like, I was just bringing in my thought process, I was like, this will be really interesting. Because I thought Jeff had the most sound thoughts on First Nations when he'd been on the podcast earlier talking about independence because I'd had Sylvester and Modry and obviously Rath. and those three, I think, were the big ones at the time. And then there's been so many others since then.

And then Bruce Party had written an article on making everybody equal. So this will be an interest. Nobody instructed me to do that. And so then you go to like how to other influencers and people work, you know, like could they be instructed? Oh, it's possible. Or it could be that the federal government has interesting ways they can push on things to make it. topical. Yes.

And one would be, I don't know, we had no say in this and you didn't consult us. And all of a sudden, then what does everybody talk about? The fact that the signatures are getting held up because they didn't get consulted. And then everybody starts talking about the inequality of how, you know, just like I said, how could you possibly push that when you have the Forever Canada petition that had a whole bunch of different rules and on. And now you look at third party advertising and how. look casics doesn't have to register is that? What is going on?

It's all wrong. So, so sitting in the middle of all the conservative influencers around independence, I'm like very strange because you could press on buttons that they wouldn't possibly even think they're being pushed that way.

And they are. And they absolutely are. So whether they are knowingly or unknowingly being used as a limited hangout, they are being used as a limited hangout and they are derailing a solid independence movement in Alberta and it to me it is mind-blowing so well I'll give you an example well and so so I sit and I probably most people don't know this right but like I try my very very best not to hang out on X or any of the social media is as much as I can because I've

done enough research I've actually been talking a lot about this in Manitoba off air I might add is that like it's just it's just not a healthy way to live no Right? And so I try really hard. And I mean, obviously people are like taking my family across Canada on a trip where we get to sit and meet people such as yourself. And so I actually don't pay attention to a lot of what the influencers saying. Yeah. I really react to big news stories, bringing people on that way. I mean, obviously me and you've been chatting for a bit and I'm like, this is interesting. I can't wait to get there and talk to Josson about some of this. And yet you look at it and go from because once again, you're a province. removed, right? Like you're two over. So you're looking at us going like, what are they doing? I'm also seeing the impacts on the ground between like people in Manitoba because Manitobans talk about Alberta independence just as much as any as Albertans. Like we're watching. Interesting. You mean, it's not just an Alberta issue is that independence, the idea of Alberta separation of independence, people cross Canada are really looking at it, but people in Western Canada,

Manitoba, Saskatchewan. It's a mainstream idea. The thought of it is no longer thinking that... Yeah, could this be possible? And is it just us that are thinking about it? Whether or not you hate the fact that it's not an actual... It's a referendum to have a referendum. It doesn't matter.

It's become mainstream now to talk about independence, which was unthinkable probably three months ago. Exactly. It was really... And COVID started to... you started hearing more about the idea of separation during COVID and things like that. And that kind of struck me as, oh, interesting. You know, I started really looking at that.

And then I started looking at into the reasons why. So going back to Chudo for the Chudo senior. So his policy on the national energy that didn't just hurt Alberta. That hurt Manitoba, hurt Saskatchewan, hurt Alberta. Alberta was ground zero, but the impacts, where do many Manitobans work? They work in Alberta. They work in Saskatchewan. So there is a lot of interprovincial travel and there is a lot of families spread out Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Alberta.

Trudeau Senior was absolutely hated, despised in Manitoba just as it. As much as in Saskatchewan or Alberta. Or in BC for that matter. From that generation, like my husband is 66. My husband remembers that and in the impact and the fallout and everything else that occurred as a result of that. There was real world consequences for that, for Manitoba families. So that age bracket, they remember. And when they look at what happened with Trudeau Jr.

and now with Carney, the memory of that is very much there. So when you talk to people that were directly impacted by that, they have a very, like, strong emotions that are on that. And I didn't understand it. We know I was a little bit too young to understand what was going on because I'm only in my 50s. So I understood after that. So when I look at the, again, going back to the influencers and that,

how the issues are being gamed. They've been gamed from the moment that we go back to the residential schools, is that when they chose that issue to laser focus on, I think that a strategy existed in Ottawa. In fact, I think that strategy existed in 2015 when Trudeau brought JWR on as Attorney General and brought her into the party. If you read both of her books,

you'll see that she came to that realization that she was used as upon in order to gain standing with indigenous groups. And to, she was lied to in terms of the impact that she would be able to have on our judiciary. The impact that she could have on, on ISC and the indigenous issues, the amount, I can't even begin to describe how much we lost when we lost her, because just her feelings on the judiciary, Look at all the court cases we've had in some of the terrible things and cases not being heard and how our judiciary has been stacked. She was adamant against stacking the judiciary by party.

She wanted merit-based appointments only. She fought for merit-based appointments in the judiciary. Perfect. She fought for people to be able to have an easy, easier time to be able to sue the government. So if you're going to sue the federal government, she said is that the government should not be able to use the whole of government to be able to attack a small person that needed redress for something that was truly a grievance, but they were being forced to be bankrupted or whatever else it was going on. She was trying to institute

laws and policy changes that would allow that to be easier. So she had put together, a track where people, if you were suing the government, that the first avenue was conflict resolution and not court so that you're not bankrupting the single person that's trying to fight government and do those different things. She had such a beautiful way of looking at things, and she had a plan for settling the land claim issues and bringing on a form of self-government that would integrate into the Canadian law. It wasn't perfect, and,

but it respected both treaties and it gave opportunity, right? So that was lost. So when she was getting ready to unveil her package as to what she was going to, she thought she was delivering, that was taken away from her.

And literally, like a day before that announcement, Trudeau went with Carolyn Bennett's version versus the JW version. And that's when we lost her. That's when we lost our ability to have somebody with that knowledge and that credibility that was there. It was a huge loss for Canada. Yeah.

And sorry, JWR, J.W.R. J.D. Wilson. Raybo. For anyone trying to do mental math on who you're talking about. You know, if you, if you think about like what you're talking about like the strategy and how they're using things and laying things out and put you know just drop in the boom it's it's the tom and alec's way of looking at canada if i may say so and uh you sit and you think about that the only time so what they're banking on everybody being is reactive reactive reactive and emotional right they're going to find ways to create a reactive society which we naturally are.

Yes. And the only time, I got to think about that, maybe not the only time, but certainly with a mass group of people where I thought we were very, or I shouldn't say we, I thought the organized

were very proactive because the freedom confi. They knew they were going to try and do that. Yep. And they were telling people every hour, if not every 30 minutes, listen, no violence. We don't do that.

So when you assume a mob's coming in, because as smart as, we think this group of people, whoever they are, trying to drop these little bombs, they're not that smart. They're playing the odds. Well, yeah. And they have a lot of power and a lot of influence in order to try and play out those odds.

And think about that. Like, I've noticed it is that when people that I know have come from Ontario and then they come here to Manitoba, sometimes I say to myself, wow, are we talking about the same country? Are we talking about the same issues? Because their perspective is completely different.

but then you have to look at it is that look at Ontario and and not Quebec. Quebec has got a different thing going on. I think Quebec is is constitutionally brilliant. I can't wait to get to Quebec. We're spending like a week in change I think it is in Quebec. Oh yeah. Montreal and Quebec City. That should be interesting.

Yeah, because they, I love the people who are going to be crazy. I love the Quebec perspective because hands down if there is a single province with a grass set of balls on them? Yeah, they got a backbone. That's correct. And they're using it. And they don't care what anybody else thinks. Exactly. They could care less what the media is going to say. And I think, I wish our politicians specifically in my neck of the woods just act like that. Who cares what they think? Exactly. And really that is it. I mean, they put the, and I don't agree with, like, you know, a lot of the policy they have preventually. And you don't have to, but you have to respect the fact that their political

leadership has an incredible backbone and they are constitutionally savvy. They know their stuff and they fight on Canadian law and they fight on Quebec law. So they know how to work to rule. That's and that's basically how, and you know what I'm talking about with that. They know how to do it. They absolutely know how to do it. And so if you come back though to to independence, right? We keep straight all over the place, right? And we keep coming back to how the movement's being co-opted. Yep. It's, you know, the way to remove or get out of the way of that is to be proactive. Yes. And proactive is difficult because, in one sense, it's difficult because you don't know where the next issue is going to come up.

Yep. But you have to gauge the emotion of it and what they're trying to steer you into. Yeah. And that's why I keep looking at these posts that come out on X especially. you know from these influencers and i i i have one to say to them and i just want to shake them and say hey guys you tell me and you say that you are supporter of alberta and independence and and they write of people's voice to be heard is this going to help independence or is it going to create inflamed emotions so like there and there's so many good accounts that i would normally you know a lot of things they say i agree with and i like and i follow and i follow all of them and and and but then I look at when they come to the indigenous issue not any other

issue but the indigenous issue I'm like where did your brain go how can you be so astute on this side and not see the cognitive dissonance that that you are displaying in this particular situation go back to two things and none this is but this is where Tom and Alex come in yeah because you go So we all display cognitive dissidents in different ways. And it has been seated there for a very long time. Yes. And First Nations in Canada, well, I think I'd be lying if we don't all have some bias towards it. And, you know, the bias exists on the other side too, right?

But that's what I mean. Actually, you know, like I sat with a first Asian guy. Shout out to Aaron, if he ever listens to this. in Good Spirit Lake, we're sitting there, and he was making fun of white people. And he looked at me, he's like, I might be the most racist Indian you're ever going to meet. And that's exactly, and I started laughing.

And people used to be able to joke around about that. Yeah, well, it was a fun little conversation. I would be lying if I wasn't like, this is a bit awkward. But at the same time, that's because the awkwardness has been built into our society. Exactly. And so just as, from a lack of historical knowledge that your average regular Canadians have been done a huge disservice by not being given correct historical knowledge and on the same side of things

is that political parties on First Nations and in indigenous communities have also been encouraged to promote one political ideology. And people look at me and they say, well, why do they keep voting NDP or why do they keep voting liberal? Okay, let's go back to the funding structure in Canada. Is that if somebody is in a place of power and they control the purse and they have the goal, And one of my bosses said this to me.

He used to say, we used to talk about Carrie's gold and rule. And I said, what's Carrie's gold and rule? And he says, whoever has the gold makes the rules. And I laughed and then I realized that, oh, man, this guy was really smart. So the federal government has the gold. They make the rules. They can vary strategically through department resources, capital officers, and all of the different groups.

They can deploy the whole of government and create programs, create the appearance of things happening, create the appearance of change, and they can drive opinion within indigenous communities just as much as any other group. But because they have been in the seat of power for as long as they have,

and the liberal government has been so effective, And the Liberal Party has been so effective at being able to paint one group as racist or bigots or whatever you want to call that. That has been such a winning strategy, even though it is so incorrect and so unethical as to how it was done. But again, is that if the federal government has got $50 billion to go out annually, Okay, which First Nations are, can we put our thumb on with and dangle a water treatment plant or dangle a new school? What is that local group going to say? Yeah, they do the same thing with municipalities. You betcha they do.

Provinces. You betcha. They dangle money in front of them, say, hey, if you don't march to our beat, you're going to lose some of this funding. So, and you're exactly right. It's the same mechanism of, of exerting the thumb. But in the case of indigenous, the thumb on the scales, that is viewed exclusively and not in context with how they do it with municipalities and cities and other groups and other provinces. So how is that isolated?

First Nation, fly in, needs a water tube implant, needs to get off boil water. What are they going to do? What are they going to say? Do they swallow a bunch of frustration and anger and all of that and take the project and do what is needed to be done and vote that particular government back in? or do they walk their own road and do they fight in another way? First Nations have done both. So some First Nations have gone the other way. I would say it's going to be very much on the group of people there.

Because what you're talking about is having limited options. Limited options. And I would say one of the, a very good piece of advice Brian Burke gave me is if you give yourself good options, you know, great, good choices, and what you're talking about is not good options. You have very poor options. No options, absolutely. So you have to, when people look at chiefs and councils of First Nations,

you have to view them like a municipal government. Because they're a municipal government in the end, right? They operate the same way. They provide the same services. How many municipal councils, city councils, do we have out there that people are happy with. How much do people talk about corruption in the city of Calgary, corruption in the city of Winnipeg, corruption at the local level?

How many investigations happen because municipalities are running things that are unethical and now they've got ethics violations and investigations that occur? Same thing. But when you come to indigenous groups, it's like the same behavior that occurred, in a municipality has just occurred on a First Nation. Nobody talks, even knows about this one, but First Nation, oh my God, the sky is falling, everything is going on, and, you know, they're so corrupt and that is not helpful. What is helpful is when you can sit down and you can say, okay, this is happening here,

this is happening here, this is happening here, this is the mechanism. how do we interrupt the mechanism? How do we change that mechanism from being possible? How do we clean things up at that level? And we use our head instead of using that emotional side of things, not reactive, not emotional, rational. And so what I have seen in terms of indigenous issues is that the Canadian population has been just propagandized to the nines.

And what do they, what in Ontario and a lot of other provinces, what is their perspective that they're hearing? Because they get one message, you know, past the Manitoba, Ontario border. Conservatives are bad. Western Canadians, they're all bigots. They're all racist. They're all this. They're all that.

Well, that's not the case at all. these various groups of people, whether they're indigenous, old-time settlers, like the first wave of immigrants, first wave, you know, Russian, German, Ukrainian settlers, all of those groups of people across Canada, they had to work together. And they did. So how do we set aside the purposeful, narrated, seated, propaganda to inflame racial tensions. Let's change the messaging. For conservative influences that are saying is that, you know, focusing on chiefs are dirty, chiefs are this, chiefs or that. Let's look higher. What is the group that has the power, the influence, and the resources to be able to stop independence or any movement in Canada? Federal government.

start there you're not going to change things at the first nation level in terms of governance or anything else until you change things up here you can't drive change to the bottom up you have to change it from the top down it only ever works from changing

so the top you also said earlier on there's just no fix in it because immigration in Canada Immigration in Canada has gone to a point where that is put a massive pressure point on Canadians. And I don't know how that can be fixed. Then you have the racial tensions that are erupting across Canada and the breakdown.

COVID was bad enough in how we broke apart families and communities. Now we're adding another level to that. Now we are creating a fundamental divide. between communities between indigenous Canadians and non-indigenous Canadians. And that should never occur. Like if there was, and... I'm glad you're the one saying it because I don't feel it particularly, but I'm also not living it, right?

And so this comes back to when EB called us traitors. Yes. Right? He called Albertan's traitors. And he was speaking specifically to separatists. Yeah. But I talk to all the separatists. And so you feel that.

You're like, wow. we've hit COVID levels again. We have. When you're labeling a group of people with hatred, you're like, holy mac, how do we get back to here? And what you're talking about with the savages and all that, you're like, we're back to COVID again. And how do we get there from a group of people that I respect?

I think is what I'm hearing. Exactly. And this is where I'm looking at it. I'm like all these smart people and people that I think are fundamentally good people and good intentions are being led by their nose, led by their nose along a trek they don't want to go onto. I want to see Alberton, Saskatchewan, whichever group it is in Canada, I want them to be able to pursue self-determination. Whatever choice they make, but the idea of self-determination, that's a human right. And ultimately, I think, is that what team am I,

on, I'm on Team Humanity. I'm on the side of... Well, we share that, don't we? Yeah, I like people. I like the goodness of people. I like being able to explore that, and I like that type of things. If I have to beat the hell out of somebody,

I'm perfectly capable of doing that. But I would prefer to take Team Humanity Road first. And that's a really... That's a tough call when you have to say that. I want to see self-determination. I want to see people decide, and I want to see people make the best choice that they possibly can make. I want them to allow them to decide.

Because this comes back to another Alex Craneer thought. Yes. And that is if you don't allow them decide, that's right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It comes to where the lid's blown off at some point. And you think of, in your mind, you see the rhetoric growing,

with First Nations and white people. I see the rhetoric growing between immigrants and white people. Oh, you haven't even talked to that. You want to see what's the tensions that maybe not talked about. What's happening between a certain segment of new Canadians that have arrived? Sure. And indigenous communities. I've started to see those videos.

Well, you can see some big issues that are happening. I'll talk about one that just came out a little while ago, and there was a lot of it. First Nations in Manitoba are restricting who has access to traditional hunting areas, and they are restricting access to areas where people would harvest traditional medicines, sweet grass, and other things, wild rice, things like that. traditional medicines, sages, that has never been done in Canadian history. And who is doing that?

First Nations are restricting access. But do you know why they're restricting access? They're restricting access because there have been an influx of people coming on to First Nations, shooting up First Nations, discharging weapons. In Manitoba. In Manitoba.

and Saskatchewan and Alberta, it's NBC. Yes, but specifically Manitoba. Manitoba, because you saw how remote communities are in Manitoba. So their response to that is like, well, we're going to restrict access, which is a first time in history. And my, my stepfather and I, we actually witnessed it firsthand. We had, we were going out and we were checking because we were getting ready to go and do our hunt, because we hunt. we're matey harvesters we went out to do the hunt

and what we found and other communities are seeing this as well is that people are coming in for the for the trophy and they are taking the head with the full antler and everything else and they're leaving the carcass the entire animal behind

and those are immigrants doing that yeah not all of them, but a lot because they don't understand, they don't understand the relationship that urban hunters of every background have created and built over decades with First Nations and in non-First Nation land, but maybe traditional lands that aren't a part of the First Nation, but the traditional areas where everybody goes to harvest and everybody goes to hunt. and we all had like there was we have internally something called the rules of the hunt

and the rules of the hunt are something that's passed down from decade from generation to generation to generation and provincially you have laws that say okay you have to get home private property permission you're going to go hunting areas is that on first nations you go you ask permission to go there and yours because what happens is on a conservation level and on a first nation level and on a Métis level, we track our herds. We are looking at making sure that when we're harvesting, we're making sure is that we harvest in a way that's sustainable, so we have a crop to go back to the following year.

And then so with traditional medicines and the animals, they're being hunted for sport, or the medicines are being dug up in such a way that is damaged those areas. And then Manitoba had big floods this year. So huge parts of our province were flooded. it out. And now those areas that were harvested, you can't harvest them for traditional medicines. So now we have less that it's actually available to those communities. So now First Nations are saying is that if you are going to harvest on First Nation land or traditional lands, you need

to get permission from the chief and council and you have to be accompanied by an elder who will make sure that you're harvesting sustainably. But new Canadians coming to Canada, do they know any of these rules. Do they understand that there is 200 years of relationship built and understanding built between non-indigenous hunters and indigenous hunters and indigenous communities and people that do wild harvesting of mushrooms, of sweetgrass, of blueberries, of all those different things? Do they realize that there is 200 years of history and community building and relationship, building and then now for the first time in Canadian history that is being challenged that and so what did what did the the First Nation communities do they felt that they were being overrun in terms of losing

valuable harvest and it's important and so they said to say yeah we're restricting access and so regular Canadian hunters they look at this and they're saying why are they why are they why are they blocking access? Why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? And they're, they're understandably upset. They're like, we've always hunted here. Why can I hunt here now? And they don't understand why they're being turned around, but they don't understand the damage that's been done to these communities. And then you've got the organized crime that comes with it, right? Because a lot of the... You're seeing organized crime in Manitoba as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. From immigrants is basically what I'm pointing out because... Oh, yeah. Big time.

I was, me and Tuesday talked about this a lot, right? About the extortion cases and everything going on in BC. You know, you got the, all the stuff going on with the tow trucks, but other things in Ontario. Then you got the things going on in Quebec. Yeah. And then we had extortion cases in Calgary. I'm like, holy crap.

Like this seems like it's everywhere. But Manitoba is one of the promises we haven't talked about. Manitoba is a trucking hub. Where do? Yeah, duh. Where does. That's a duh moment. Where does every single.

single truck that crosses Canada pass for. Winnipeg. Winnipeg. And... Dad used to talk about it when he was, when he drove long haul across Canada. It was Winnipeg. Winnipeg. I don't mean specifically just that it came up a lot.

But why? Because it's right there. I was telling Mel, on the way here, I'm like, Anna, if you ever want to shut down Canada, here's where I'd put a tank right there. It's this little spot just east of Winnipeg where you cross in Ontario and I'm like, and I'm like, and that's the only road. road. You're done. So you look at it is that Winnipeg is a hub not only east and west, north and south, yeah. And all those trucks flow through here. We have had so many cases in the news of human

trafficking, like human smuggling, trafficking of young women, young girls, the increased violence that's happening within our urban areas, how that's expanding out, what that's doing to housing, the impact to housing and the the uh just the level of of um disregard for Canadian laws and that is that is huge it's absolutely massive so where is that happen what does that do with indigenous communities and not every indigenous community but a lot of communities is that now they're seeing when they're seeing that come into their communities they are shutting down their communities. They're blocking their roads.

They're restricting access. And now they are working with band police and RC&P and other groups to say, okay, we have to stop this. The Manitoba just had like three months ago, one of the biggest bus in Canadian history, are in Manitoba history. And a lot of those names were a part of it. And you saw guns that were coming out of the United States.

You saw cash. saw coke, you saw meth, you saw heroin, you saw all of that for the proceeds of crime. And so we are feeling the impact. We've always felt the impact. And we've seen the degradation of various areas in Winnipeg from the increased meth use, so meth homelessness, violence, no-go zones in Winnipeg now. No-go zones? Yeah.

Like you're talking like everybody talks about it? you just don't go there. Like you just don't go there. But, you know, before every city has like maybe a one or two block. You know where you're like, that's a no-go zone. Well, now you're saying is, you know, this, this mile stretch, that's a no-go zone. You know, that whole district, that's a no-go zone. Because you are now concerned about where you're going, when you're going and things like that.

And the downtown is just, it blows my mind. But it's the level of violence, the type of violence, like, right? I mean, what did I never really see in Manitoba before? Machete violence? It wasn't really a thing. Yeah, well, now in Manitoba, machete violence is a thing. You know, and it was just a couple months ago, we heard one where a guy, it came in, and he went into another home, and he took a machete to those people in there

and injured people within that home. And it was, I think, two blocks from a school. So when you look at that type of violence and that, so, You're seeing the increase in racial tensions between the new Canadian and mostly the non-vetted Canadian because... Yeah, because there's lots of great just Canadians that are new. Exactly. Right. So this is where we all go.

It's like, well, I'm not against immigrants. It's a nuance, right? Yes. And now, going back to it, like, I was as an employer. I used to be a part of the provincial nominee program, right? So I sponsored people to come to Canada and work for me and help sponsor them for permanent residency here in Canada. Sponsored one from Mexico. I sponsored one from Russia.

So great families. And they're both. I mean, in terms of both families, we ended up bringing their entire family here. The kids all work, went to school here. Like, incredible people and some from varied backgrounds, right? So the guy that I sponsored from Mexico, he was a mechanical engineer and an electrical engineer. But you're, yeah, you're talking about merit common sense. Merit-based.

People that can come in and do the work. And I would argue if they're coming in to do the work, they're probably learning how the country operates and operating within the lines, right? And those relationships that I built from the people that I sponsored and worked for me for a number of years and then have moved on and found, you know, other places. to work in Canada. I still know the families. I still keep in touch with them. And they are great people. But you know what they told me when they were coming?

And they're coming at a time like 2014, 2015, 2016. They said to me, Jocelyn, we came to Canada legally. We paid our way to come to Canada. Yeah. We supported ourselves here while we're in Canada. that we did all these things.

We followed all the rules. We had English as a second language. We were proficient in English. We had our medical done. We had our background checks done. They went through so many hoops for each guy. It took me a year to go through the processes. The LMIAs.

It was the LMO and then the LMO, which was very detailed. And I had to provide a transition plan where I would be transitioning to a Canadian workforce, right? So I utilize the provincial nominee program. I understand how it works and I understood where the system was being gamed. We used it for construction, for skilled trades, for designations of where you needed it, where you needed to bring in that extra workforce. Why is Olive Garden and Tim Hortons and McDonald's and Walmart? Why are they hiring temporary foreign workers and why are they accessing the provincial nominee programs

for this. And so the group, the communities that I was a part of because I sponsored two immigrant families here to Canada, they're angry. They followed the rules. They came here legally. They worked very hard to get to Canada. One friend of ours, she's now a pharmacist in Vancouver. She worked so hard to get here. She's got a master's degree on top of everything else she's done. And she is South Korea. So she's Korean. Oh my God. Like you look at the quality of people to King.

Yeah. Sorry. The thing you keep pointing out is like we can all see the problems. Yes. We just have to speak clearly and concisely on what the problem is and the fact they're not addressing it. Yes. So what do I? And when you wash it over everyone, that's where you get into problems.

They want to simplify team A, team B. Exactly. And the Canadians. And we need to understand. that team A and team B are probably roughly the same person looking or same group of people. Do we agree on everything? Certainly not. I mean, like, you know, you can go in your own family and realize you don't agree on everything.

But your team humanity. Yeah, that's right. And team humanity is messy and raucous and all the things. But when it comes to like looking at Canada or Alberta independence or any of this, it's like it's Tom's idea or not a monolith. Yeah. But there's certain core issues. where we probably all

relatively agree and we're looking at it going like and this is why we always have to justify it. I'm not against immigration. I'm against flooding a country with a whole bunch of people who don't share our values and don't follow our laws

and then when they break the laws we bend the judicial system to allow them to stay and to allow them to keep breaking the law and on and on it goes. I think all of us are against that. What the heck are we talking about here? That's Canadian values, right?

I mean that and that doesn't matter which communication. community from are you in an indigenous community? Are you a First Nation? Are you in an urban center? Are you in Calgary? Are you in Edmonton? We're all saying the same thing. What do we want? We all want prosperity. We want a job. We want a job. We want our kids to be safe. We want our kids to go to school. Those five things. That probably is the basis of Canadian values across the entire country. That's what people, the majority of people want. And that's not what we're seeing right now. now. And that comes to the idea of, you know, we talked about independence and the idea is, is that what is the long-term future for Canada? And I honestly see is that unless the Alberta Independence Movement can clean up the messaging, or at least understand that they are being, that their messaging is being funneled along a set of guardrails so that some very good strategists, I think that some of them might even be conservative party strategists, if I think about it,

are being pushed down a path, and there's guardrails on both sides that are being implemented by our federal government and by maybe our federal conservative party, and that the independence movement messaging is being taken down that route versus where they should be somewhere over here and their message would be more readily accepted by a majority of people if they looked at where their messaging was following. And it's crazy because the Conservative Party recognized this decades ago. They knew that the Liberal Party was using that in order to pull off votes, right? they knew where to put their focus on in order to to manipulate demographics and demographic voting. We know this happens.

This is what polling is all about, right? Yes. And so if you don't understand that you are being subjected to propaganda and that you are being forced along those two guardrails, then you're not going to get out of it. you're going to go down to a, and maybe Alberta gains their separation in 10 years, and they're in upheaval and increased tensions and everything else and uncertainty for 10 years, or they could maybe get a referendum this year, a clean referendum with a clear majority and a clear path, and one that is respectful. Now, if I were in the independence movement, what path would I be

operating for, I would look at those two guard rails that are being put in place by outside groups and I would say, why am I allowing my movement? Why am I allowing my family and my friends and myself? Why am I allowing myself to be put into a little path? Why am I not allowed to make my own path and have my own thoughts and have my own, you know, ideas about how this works. And that's what I see the danger is happening. And I think there is time to turn around the messaging. I think there's a really good opportunity to turn around that messaging. But they have to stop doing what they're doing. And they have to stop inflaming the issues because the issues that are that are being brought out in various, various posts and things like that.

The reactions that they're getting, and I read them all, like I'll take, you know, I'll get up at five o'clock the morning and I'll read. And then just to understand. And I'm like, I can see where people are starting now to recognize that there, there is, we're farming, we're farming this, this division and this racial tension that is being, it's being farmed. And it needs to stop. So and first

Well the thing about this podcast Josses is you probably realize it or maybe you don't realize it how many Albertans are listening to this and one of the promises I had myself into the audience when I left was every guest I was going to ask them about Alberta Independence because I'm very curious

and the funny thing was is coming over here and I'm like it's going to be my first question because me and Jocelyn have a history and I don't need to have the origin story I think a lot of people if they haven't gone back and searched you out if you're new to the podcast I haven't listened to your story with a whole bunch of stuff. Not its stuff, but a whole bunch of things going on, you know, across us getting to know each other.

Because you've been on the podcast. I'm not going to sit here and say it was every month, but, you know, more. Yeah, a bit. That's right. We've grown a friendship through it. Three times. I think I've been on the podcast. And so I'm like, I'm going to walk in and this and I sit here and I go, like, how long have we been going for?

I'm like, this is. And I'm like, Albertans are listening. And Albertans are sharp tax. They are. And there's a bunch of them sitting there going, I'm probably right on some things. And I'd be curious where this thought process goes. So to me,

I hope they understand. Because what I'm not hearing is I'm against Alberta independence. It's like, you've got to be careful because where you're steering into is where they want to steer you into. And what that does is form foment division. And the reason why I think that, and the reason why I kind of have a real point, problem with someone where it's going is that I will be tagged on threads that where people are you know

where some of these these posts have come off and then somebody who knows me they'll say hey you know what you should really talk to sundance construction because they might be able to explain this a little bit better and then I'll get the notification I'll look at it and I'm like okay and I'll go in and I'll what an interesting perspective to have right of other people tagging you saying hey you should probably comment on this yeah and so they will know they'll bring me Because the way I get sucked into a lot of these is she'd probably talk to Sundance. She could probably enlighten your listeners. And I go, oh, yeah, sounds interesting.

So I get tagged like that. And so what I do is I have personally reached out to some of these influencers, personally said, hey, I would love to sit down and talk to you. I would love to be able to share with you my perspective. and I have physically sent some of the information and the assessments and things that I've done, like where things sit, and photographs and different things of different places, saying, you know, this is, this is something that I've worked on, or this is, this is the situation I've run into. So I have shared physical, you know, physical pieces of the story, right?

and the response that I get back is dead silence oh okay and dead silence so then I'm like okay I have just shared some very pointed information where I'm saying is that I would love to sit down with you and have a conversation maybe on a national platform and say or regional platform and say, hey, maybe we can have a more nuanced conversation and I can show you from where I've been involved in federal procurement and all these things, where the good is, where the bad is, and where the really ugly is. And we probably think the same thing about Brookfield. So doesn't it seem odd that conservative influencers like that don't want to talk to me.

I don't know. I actually don't know who you're talking about because I've always really enjoyed our conversations. Well, you're different in terms of that you have such a huge variety of guests. Like your guest span like a huge gamut. Well, because I agree with Tom's thought. Once again, I'm going back to a podcast from about a week ago where he's like, no country is a monolith. And I just take that and I go, well, no area is a monolith.

No province is a monolith. Monounis Palis Monolith. There's just always, every time I think I start getting closer to the answer, then I talk to someone, I'm like, oh, man, I got so much to learn, right? So there's no point and get, I try, there's certain things I'm very set in my ways. I mean, obviously you met my family earlier today, and I think very strongly about being a father and being married to the same woman. And there's some things that way where I've definitely set my course, and I'm not going to be pulled off that.

But then when you come to like politics, different arguments going on in different spaces, I don't know, because you can talk to a lot of people and you got to build a picture. You know, I talk about putting in the puzzle pieces. Yeah.

And like, you know, I got asked by Tim Bartel, the bee farmer, my thoughts on independence. And I'm like, and he's like, oh,

I shouldn't ask. And I'm like, well, no, it's not that. Oh, I'm gladly talk about it. It's that I feel very young

in like, should we have independence? Well, I know that I'm going to vote and I know that I'm going to vote for, yes, we should have a referendum on independence, like an actual referendum. Yeah. And I have two thoughts in my brain when it comes to that, Jocelyn,

all my research shows, and I think we agree on this, I don't know if there's any save in Canada. Yeah. I think we're at a very dark place in our history where it's like, I don't know how to get out of this. I don't want to leave it. So in order to do that, I have to fight for it.

And so then I would say, yeah, for one, you should vote for that reason. Two is like if you think of staying in Canada, Alberta should not leave Canada, well, this vote actually doesn't make you leave Canada. And Daniel Smith would say, well, be careful, you don't mention the divorce word and everything else. I'm like, screw that. The only thing governments understand is force. And we saw that with the freedom convoy. Yes.

When they showed up and wouldn't leave and did it peacefully and no matter how much propaganda and how many times they call them this is that. and the public was behind them. Yep. What happened? All the mandates came off. Life returned. Yes.

And I go, so why wouldn't 99% of Albertans who are frustrated, whether you're in Eminton, Calgary, Lloydminster, to Vermillion, to Fort Mac, to Grand Prairie, to somewhere down in Lathbridge, and all across the rest of the province, go in and say, we want out. We want to have the chance to say we want out, because then Ottawa has to go, holy crap, it's time to get there and start. to get shovels in the ground and actually build these pipelines, talk to the issues that are going on in our country, because if only 40% don't come out and say it, they want out,

nothing changes. Nothing changes. And then we sit here and we could talk about all limited hangouts and everything else, but we go, we have a serious problem here. And most people are going to leave that are thinking like us. Yes. And they're going to leave to different countries. Yes.

And they're going to probably find out there's problems there too. Yep. And then they have to start all over again and maybe they just decide not to worry about it because they got their freedoms. You know in the United States. You got your First Amendment and your Second Amendment. All the big amendments they talk about. But they're under attack too. They are.

And you know what? Is that we've actually had like these conversations like internally as a family, we've had these conversations. Internally within the, within my community of businesses and contractors that I talk to, we all have like that we're talking about the same things. we're talking about is that long term, how much longer does our company have? Like, you know, if things don't change, if economics don't change, how long do we have? And this comes back to the housing strategy. You know, we're short, I just, the figures that I just read were CMHC came out with revised figures. They need to build annually.

We need 430,000 new housing starts every single year until 2,035 in order. to catch up on housing and make it affordable. Yeah, good luck. Okay. That isn't happening. And we just have to hear 10 seconds of your story and how much the government regulations are stopping you from building that.

And you go, you're not the only one. No, and I'm not. So this is economically, I can mean, I think what drove is driving Alberta independence, it's the economic issue, right? The economics of it. Well, I think it's a perfect storm. I think it's economic.

it's values. Yes, it's all of it. It's all the totalitarian control, do it our way, the centralization. All of it. Right. And so like the economics you can go off on, certainly, because it's very evident and people understand it and are living it. And yes, and we see that right here. Like we're talking about here in Manitoba and our housing strategy and everything else is going on there is that our government is, our government is disconnected from the platforms that, that would actually make changes in Canada. They are, so when we look at what's driving all of this unhappiness and all this frustration in every region of Canada and driving the economic destabilization that's occurring and the lack of investment in Canada

and the lack of everything and infrastructure that is deteriorating. So what's happening is that there is a very big disconnect between the federal government. There is a big disconnect, federal government, CMHC, lenders, municipalities, and building authorities. That disconnect is evident across Canada. That disconnect is something that we've experienced firsthand in terms of that. And they talk about you need these new housing starts.

And as long as we don't have those new housing starts, the tensions that are occurring in every single area of Canada are going to skyrocket because as people don't have a place to live, they don't have affordable living, they don't have a chance for their children to work. My nephew, my nephew is in Vancouver. He is 23 years old. He is going to Simon Fraser University, and he hasn't been able to get a job for three years. three years he's volunteering everywhere he is doing whatever he can but he can't get a job let me ask you

then let's let's just let's let's let's turn it here to something that i'm i'm curious about because once again i'm not a manitoban uh being from saskatch when we poked a lot of fun at manitoba and then i come here and i'm like man there's like a lot of cool stuff going on to manitoba which kind of surprises me in one sense. And yet, like, the coolest stories, some of the coolest stories from the Freedom Convoy stemmed around the Winnipeg area, right? So in order to get people working,

you need projects, you need to build things. Yeah. And in my mind, and I'm sure in your mind, it's like, well, let's build things with a purpose that actually have a return on investment. And so this comes back to the conversation I had with Carly Freezing, when we got talking about Churchill.

Yep. Deepwaterport, check, we need that. Yep. And then you get talking about the tourist and all the things they could do there. And I kept saying, and I'm going to butcher this, but something along, oh, you know, one of a kind in Canada. And she's like, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's one of a kind in the world. Yep.

And I'm like, if I believe her, it's one of a kind in the world, what Churchill offers, then there's a project that Manitoba could build. Now, I understand there's going to be all these, you were showing me the map. Yeah. And the amount of water and probably marshland and all the swamp and everything, I'm like, don't get me wrong. This is not a small project. Sorry, Manitobans. I'm not trying to make it out to be a small project. Just go look at a map if you're not from Manitoba.

And you'll realize this isn't a small project. But what sits at the end is a one of a kind in the world. Yes. With a deep water port access that could ship out everything to the world on and on it goes. Yeah. Your construction. So this is why I'm going to ask you. Yep.

As a lady who's from here and knows all the history, is it possible to build a way to get there that isn't fly in, fly out, that isn't take a 24-hour train and all the things? We could do it. Absolutely, we could do it. If you look at the scope of the Manitoba Hydro projects that have happened, we have diverted entire river systems in northern Manitoba. created the Churchill River diversion good or bad, but we created it. We created and built mega projects along both sides of our province.

We're all hydroelectric power dams. That means is that you need to build infrastructure. So you're saying in a way, you know, they talk about getting off of, and I hate to even utter these words, but oil and gas or coal for powering homes and everything, you could build out a project where you take, because I mean, what you're going to, if you divert of water and created dams, major projects,

you know, I think it's Paraguay, where they have one of the largest, if not the largest dams in the world, and they sell their power to Brazil and other neighboring countries. You think in a country that's trying to divert their energy consumption of oil and gas or coal, you sit in a province where you're like,

well, if you made a major project going to Churchill, which would be a tourist destination, to mention the deep water port access, not to mention a whole bunch of other things. Resource movement. Right. You could actually build something out. They would have major projects that would divert a crazy amount of water. And you could, in theory, have a ton of power to sell or help with different provinces or to the south, per se. Manitoba has either the same or more hydroelectric power as Quebec.

Now, Quebec generates a surplus in their hydroelectric power, and technically, Manitoba does too. There's a little bit more complex and the nuances as to how that works. And we sell power. We sell power to Ontario. We sell power to Saskatchew and we sell power to the United States. But our infrastructure hasn't been totally developed now. It's closer now that we have the converter station at Bipol. So that's Kewatnuk.

And then we have the Kias Dam, which was just finished in 2019-20 when it came online. And that's a project that I worked on. And I did the water treatment plant at the converter station. And I worked through Gillum and Split Lake and all the way down the line, all those other areas where we had major dam projects that came along all that way. It's funny, I was a little girl, and my stepfather was working as a tradesperson at limestone dam. and then the converter station is up at Sundance, which is interesting because my name ties into that. And then I worked on Wasquodum, and then I worked on Kiyazk, and then I worked on Kewatnuk.

So it's kind of like generational, you know, tradespersons and families working on the same projects across multiple generations. That's kind of like Manitoba has that ability to be able to do that. we have incredible potential. Like there is so much that Manitoba can offer. Sure. In terms of mining, forestry, hydroelectric power, and then on the farming side of it. And then you have the Embrage Line that comes through part of Manitoba.

So it's not like Manitoba isn't a logical hub. It is a logical hub to move resources from Western Canada. Canada out and from Western Canada to Eastern Canada. It makes sense. But the problem is that we haven't been able to realize that potential. And we haven't been able to make the gains that are necessary to do that. The Port of Churchill makes sense. It makes perfect sense to be able to have the Port of Churchill. And it would probably give Northwest Ontario and Alberta and Alberta and and Saskatchewan, some much needed diversity in terms of how they transport their goods to market.

It makes sense to be able to do that. But I showed you where the road ends. Yeah, I did. And I showed you where Real- So that's why I come to a construction person and people go, oh, it'll be way too difficult. And I go, way too difficult. I was just in Panama, seeing the Panama Canal.

You don't think that was difficult? Yeah. Like, that was difficult. But somebody had a vision of like, we can do this. And were there problems? And will there be problems? most certainly. But I look at it and I hear one woman tell me

there's no one in the world that has Churchill and you can swim with the baluga whales and well I mean Carly swim with the bill of good whales whether you know the world would let you do that I have no idea. But polar bears, right? You're talking about things that you're just like, huh, deep water port access, all the things,

you know, you're like not to mention we got looking into it, there's now cruises that go Hudson Bay cruises. I'm like, what Canadian has ever said oh, I'm going on a Hudson Bay cruise? I don't think I've ever heard that uttered in my life. And yet there it sits in the middle of the country that you could actually do it. I assume you're going to pay a small fortune, which means most of us aren't going to do it because we can't afford it.

But that could become a major hub of tourist destination destination. We see it out in Alberta. We see it in Banff and Jasper and all the different, the amount of tourists that come through. You go like, that could become a destination hub. So you have to have the vision to do it. So then you go, well, it'll be difficult. And the terrain and everything is like, well, yeah, I'm not saying it's going to be easy. I don't think the Panama Canal was easy.

You know what, it's doable. The thing is, it is doable. There is a rail line that already goes through there. So in terms environmental impact and things like that, you would have to build it alongside the existing rail that goes up there because that point of access is already there. So you would have to build up from the rail line and come off the main road and follow that rail line already.

I'm probably one of the few people, like I know of kind of like in my generation, where I have actually been on, I was on a five-seater plane, and I was able to, on that, during major flooding in 2000, and, oh my goodness, 2017, I want to say, when we had big flooding in Manitoba, and we had major northern flooding, where some of our rivers actually flowed backwards and things like that off the Missy Falls

at one of the hydro dams and that. So I was actually able to go from Gillum, Manitoba, up to South Indian Lake, and look, watch all of the flow of the water all the way out. We went to past Kiosk from the Kiyos Dam, and we went up most of the way up towards Churchill, and then we came down across. I got to see a perspective of northern Manitoba that so few people actually get to see because I was on a, we were on a fact-finding mission. And I was hired to be able to go up and document what it was that I saw during the flooding. And what did you see during the flooding years? Oh, my goodness. Well, we saw the flooding and how it had wiped out the volume of water that had gone,

had wiped out a number of traditional areas like traditional hunting areas, hunting caps. But it also wiped out access to communities, wiped out part of the rail line. Those things occurred, and it did damage to a number of the First Nations that were downstream, where that water came from and it had impacts going all the way down to Norway House. So it had a huge impact at the time. And so communities were, as they were being flooded, they had access to, they needed clean drinking water, a number of things. We have boiled water advisors going on.

Emergency resources management was out because we had to do some, we had to do shoreline protection with sandbags, a number of things. Homes had to be protected. So I got to see like the long term, like that big picture image. impact, but I got to see the incredible potential and that beauty of northern Manitoba. Like, people ask why, why do, you know, why do, why do indigenous people live in these areas? Well, they were moved there after the fact in many, in many situations, unless they were on a major trading route like York landing and Fox Lake and Split Lake, those of thousands of years,

those, those communities have existed in one form or another. But it is incredibly beautiful. Like when you go up to northern Manitoba and you fly into one of these communities and you just leave all the other stuff aside and the politics and the poverty and the economics. Leave the world's problems behind. And then you sit down and you get out on a machine where there's a snowmobile or you get out of the boat. And then you just look or you're flying into that community. you're getting, you're like, holy smokes.

This is beautiful. They're so, life slows down. Yeah. Life slows down. I've been to, we've flown in northern Saskatchew the same way. Self phones don't work. Yeah. It is perfect.

Yeah. So your life takes. That's a few years back now. It's just, it's different. So I look at that and we have this. So where's, what's the problem? This comes down to what I said before. is that there is a disconnect, a political will disconnect,

and the funding disconnect, and the approvals disconnect. Yeah, you wonder if any one man or woman could ever get in there and change that? They could. It absolutely could. So if it was a drive to have it happen, it can absolutely happen. I've seen what Manitoba Hydro is done. Manitoba Hydro, when you're talking about clearing out and, and creating something that didn't exist,

can it be done? Yes, absolutely can be done. You see mining operations that anything can be done. Well, that's what I mean. So when people are like, well, it's a lot of water, this type of land, I'm like, man, the amount of machinery and ingenuity we have if we just let people go off.

Expensive? Oh, sure. Sure, it'll be expensive. Sure, but can you imagine if Manitoba set off and, you know, like the government project. So certainly, you know, it's going to be expensive. But, I mean, if all of a sudden they said over the course of the next 10 years, 20 years, we're going to build out the infrastructure to open up Churchill.

And what we're asking from the government of Canada and from Alberta and maybe Saskatchewan and who knows, maybe parts of Ontario, in order to do this, we need some investment from your provinces. Yep. And we'll cover the other 50%, whatever it is. And it's going to cost $100 billion. I don't know. I'm picking a number out of thin hair. But in 10 or 20 years, we're going to have the port completely open. And do I wish it was two years? Everybody wishes it was two years.

But this is where we're going to build to. And in time, it'll become the hub of not only trade going out through the Churchill, but people coming in a thriving business for Manitoba. And, oh, wait, Alberta, you're going to be able to get your stuff out. Scatchare you're going to be able to get your stuff out. Like, to me, that just makes... logical sense. But in Canada, no matter the more things make logical sense, the less I believe it will be done. Yes. Like I don't think there's, you know, until I ran into the conversation

with Carly Fries. I was, I would have never even thought of it. Just think of the Churchill being up there. Yeah, that's a big lake and whatever. You look at that, what you have in Churchill, you have, uh, through along parts of Nunavit with some of their deepwater ports. Um, and what they, the federal government has spent in order to bring year-round access to those. ports. I mean, I've watched some of the projects that have gone into Nunavit and it's an incredible amount of

engineering and resources that were brought to create those deep water ports and shore them up and be able to do it because you're dealing with tides on a level that's crazy. Like Hudson's Bay is one thing but you go further up on the Nunavit coastlines and those ports

and that's crazy with terms of what they've had to deal with in order to create these deep water parts. So it's 100% doable. It's, we can do this. The problem is that it needs to be coordinated and you need to figure out how you're going to fund it. And you need to start putting it. You need some political will to do it.

Will. And that means. And maybe a little bit of vision of where you want to go. So instead of us putting all of this money in other nations, what if we invested it in our own country first? We need, we need to help all the other countries get out of their, We need transgender bathrooms everywhere. But again, I mean, this will come down to an indigenous issue, is that how many First Nations now are saying?

And in fact, one of the recent court rulings that I just read, what was one of the arguments that the First Nations said in that particular court case? And that was actually about, I think it was a housing issue. They said the argument they made was that we feel that our rights have been violated and that these treaty arrangements and the have been violated because we have been placed as a low priority and we are funding other countries and we're funding other groups,

maybe disadvantaged groups, but other groups ahead of indigenous commitments that the federal government has made and not adherence. to. Now, in the particular case of this ruling, the court said is that there's not enough evidence at this point in time to say that was actually done in a discriminatory fashion, and maybe rightly so, that the evidence wasn't there, but the perspective exists. The perception exists among indigenous, that the indigenous issues are a low priority and that our federal government would rather send those dollars overseas than make the commitments that they have here.

And it's funny because indigenous communities are also huge supporters of the Canadian military and service. And we have so many veterans that have come from these communities and they, one of the things they cite is look at the lack of funding going to veterans groups

and veterans affairs. And they cited that in their arguments is that they didn't say that they felt it was just indigenous groups. They cited other groups in that argument that pointed out that we're also feeling the same lack of priority. And I think that other Canadians, and I know that Quebec litigators and constitutional lawyers actually follow what indigenous groups do,

because indigenous lawyers and any lawyers, indigenous or not, that are fighting the constitutional battles are actually laying ground for Canadians as a whole. because is there one group of Canadians that force the federal government to follow the rules? It's indigenous groups. It's in First Nations because they force them to do it. We've been talking for a while. And I'm getting text of I'm on supper duty tonight. I didn't even know how long we started talking. Well, it's 530 right now.

So Mel is starting to go. Listeners getting a nice look at it. on the road. I'm on cooking duty tonight. One final question for you that I've been ending, because we talked about independence, is do you have a favorite memory of a road trip or a camping trip, whether it was when you were a child or as a mother or now as a grandmother? Is there anything that sticks out to you from life on the road? Yeah, we would take our kids down south every year. I pull the kids out of school for five weeks every year. And the one particular trip that we did that was just amazing.

was when we drove from here in the winter, December. And we went from here to Vancouver. And then we went from Vancouver to Victoria Island, got to go through all of Victoria Island that we could get to, and then go through the Redwoods and everything on Victoria Island, and then go down the cedars, that old growth forest. And then we drove all the way down from Vancouver, all the way down to like Ventura Point Arena, San Francisco, L.A., and then we went across.

And then we went across the states and then we went down to South Padre Island. And my kids were about the same age as yours when we went. And we had so many ups and downs on the on the trip. And we were pulling an RV. Like we, you know, so we were pulling the RV. and we had some breakdowns, we had other things and that. But what I looked at that trip about was, is that the time that I got to spend with my kids

and the bonds that I made with my kids, my kids still talk about it. But all of that aside is that that quality time, it's how much my kids learnt and how much it was imprinted on them in terms of being able to see different places and meet different people. And we went off the beaten path all over the place.

like and we would we're listening to radio and stuff like that and i can remember traveling we're traveling listening to like a george nore and coast to coast and that with the boys in the vehicle and we're driving through different parts of the country and stuff like that and listening to that's the radio access that we had in different places and that was a cool experience because we took our kids just everywhere that we wanted to go to and it didn't matter to us you know the time out of school or anything like that right it was about that quality time and it was about bonding as a family and giving them a perspective that that other kids were going to have and their friends have said to them and even like Tasha my my daughter-in-law when she

hears the stories of where we took the boys and it's particularly that trip and she said I've never been out of Manitoba and we never got to do stuff like that with with my parents as a kid and how many of their friends had never done that. They'd never been out of their province. And we did that. And we, our boys learned about people, perspective, politics, new geography. And they gained something else, I think, and that was the ability to question. Because they've seen a lot. And so now they are at their age, at 26 and 28, they can ask questions. And, and they can ask questions. And people say different things and that. Like, you know, my parents took me there when I was little and that.

I didn't see it that way. Or they just knew they learned enough being on the road, meeting different people to learn that they could ask a question. And that was amazing. And like, and I said earlier is that if I had a chance to do it again, would I have started my company or would I maybe have taken my boys and done more traveling, if I were asked, if I had the ability to go back and do it again, I might choose taking my kids on traveling instead, working, but traveling and doing that.

And with the work that I do and the work that my husband does, we could have done that. We could have done that and given them something a little bit different. and maybe things would change and maybe I wouldn't have the grandbabies that I have now. But the thing about it is you can't go back, right? Yeah. You know? So, but I am so thankful

that I took the opportunity to do that. So right now, you're going to find, like, your kids are at that age, that everything that you experience on the road with your wife and with your kids, you will still be talking about this 10 years. years from now, 20 years from now. When your kids are now, 25, 26, 27, 28 years old, and they're talking to their partners, they're going to talk about this. They're going to remember it.

And that, to me, is like, okay, is there one thing that I did from a kids that was that gave them like this huge... Yeah, a core memory. This is it. That's one of the things that's come up when I've asked this question is that whether I thought about it, which I hadn't. is you're imprinting a core memory on them. And how lucky to be able to do something like that. It will shape them. You may not realize I've had how many years to look back at how it shaped my kids, but it will absolutely shape them for years to come.

And you won't see it right away. But then it'll start creeping into it as they start getting into their teens and things like that. The impact of what you do today, that is when you're going to see it. know that when we biked across the country 20 years ago now that was a physical feat for myself that was very confidence building but seeing the country every time they say hate the east I'm like man the nicest person I met biking Canada Ottawa so as much as I dislike the current government I can never be influenced enough to hate the other side of the country yes doesn't make any sense to me because I've been across the country yeah and saying that it's been 20 years and

I wonder how much the country has changed. And that's what I look forward to seeing for myself in my eyes. Yeah. But either way, I appreciate you doing this. We've been going for a while. And I don't know. It's fun to get to your neck of the woods, see what you're building here. And we didn't get a whole lot into that.

And so I want to talk about that. I think, you know, to set up something where I can talk about because that's a whole other serious issue. And it's important because it drives another question that we didn't get to talk about. and I was about businesses leaving Canada. And I would really love to dig into that. To dig into that.

Well, we'll have to make time for it. But either way, for this time, Jocelyn, I appreciate you hopping on and doing this and throwing us around and just, I don't know, getting to be in your territory and see how things go here. And you have not disappointed. Although I knew all about you well before I sat down. It's just cool to finally meet you in person and get to converse like this. Yeah, I had a blast. This was fun. I really look forward to it. I'm glad we did it.

Well, thank you.