Shaun Newman Podcast - #1113 - Ben Emery

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

Pastor Ben Emery is a Canadian pastor and former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who served with Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. He served as an infantry instructor, training civilians into basic-trained soldiers, and deployed to Afghanistan. He developed the “Ready Men” ministry, incorporating biblical teaching with practical readiness training drawn from his military background, and emphasized disciplined discipleship, intentional living, and biblical manhood.Cornerstone Forum 26’https://shaunnewmanpodcast.substack.com/Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionBitcoin: www.bowvalleycu.com/en/personal/investing-wealth/bitcoin-gatewayEmail: [e-mail] Get your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500

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This is James Lindsay. This is Vance Crowe and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Wednesday, hump day. How's everybody doing? Hope wherever you're at, you're enjoying the week. On this end, it's been a ton of fun. We've been all over the place.

We've made it to Buffalo. and hanging out with a guy I played hockey with, and Mel and I went to school with. He stood up in our wedding, so we were getting to hang out with him and his family, which is super cool. Now, before we get on to other things going on, podcast-related,

when it comes to silver and gold and all the precious metals, I point you to silver-gold Bull, of course, them and Bow Valley Credit Union, bringing the Cornerstone Forum back to Calgary, May 2027, all right? And so that's going to be a ton of, fun looking forward to that and looking forward to having these companies back a part of it it's always

cool uh when they hop on board and uh you know put trust in what i do so when it comes to silver gold bull i put my trust in them to make sure that uh when i'm looking for precious metals i find them they got a ton of options when it comes to precious metals i'm just on silver gold bull right now dot ca and just looking at all the silver items i'm a big fan of one ounce coins i don't know what you guys are a fan of maybe you got other things if you sound you something if you sound up for an account, you can literally order things online. It ships the right to your doorstep. It's super slick, super easy. And when you have questions around buying, selling, or storing precious metals, of course, you can go down on the show notes and text or email Graham. He's going to answer

all your questions. Loves talking all you guys and would love to hear from you. So for all your precious metal needs, go to silvergoldbill.c.a.com. Now, I was mentioning the Cornerstone forum. Brett Olin has actually been on stage for that the last two years. And when it comes to independent banking in Alberta, maybe even Canada, who am I kidding? I think of Bow Valley Credit Union. It's all about lending deposits, real financial advice. You can open accounts, talk through lending options, and get help with banking all in a space design for conversations, not transactions. If you want smarter banking with gold, silver, Bitcoin, sell money, and personal freedom.

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family, community, hard work, living within your means and personal freedom. They also follow a guy named Martin Armstrong. So if that sounds like you, well, go check them out. I-dashwealth.ca, that's I-welfth.ca. And see if integrated wealth management is the right fit for you and your family. Back home, if you're looking for, you know, meat, diamond seven meats, okay? They're on the north side of town, Highway 17 and 67th Street North. That's Lloyd Minster, folks.

And they've been a family-run business with over 26 years of service, offering more than just retail cuts. They provide livestock processing for farmers and ranchers in Saskatchewan and Alberta, including custom sausage making for both domestic and wild game. And if you don't have your own animals, that's all right. They can connect you directly with producers offering sides or quarters of beef, pork, and lamb, all right? That's Diamond 7 Meats on the north side. Floyd Minster. You can give them a call at 306, 8259718. The S&P road trip is powered by Zeebs, a family-owned and fine-tuned, family-owned and fine-tuned, that is, in Chestermer, Alberta. That's Zeems Performance Restoration. They deliver expert classic car restoration to custom

exhausts and performance upgrades. And when you're looking for a mechanic who can do things over the phone, yeah, Zane's your man, all right? Zeebs.c.a, okay? Now, uh, today's episode, you know, people have been asking me on the road, okay, like, I've had lots of great interviews. They've, they've all been great. Like, they've all been a ton of fun. But Ben just stands out as one where I was just like I'm just going to put the phone I'm just going to put the mic down for a bit I'm just going to let this guy talk I like just moments where I'm like this is I can't believe I'm I'm hearing this and um I got to give a shout out to Chuck Prodnick for for you know I badgered him because he he he did a speech at the cornerstone in 2025 and Ben was in it and I was just like

who is this guy like you got to put me in touch and thank you Chuck for doing that Thanks for Ben for being open to me sitting there and driving to his church to do it. And I'll be very, very curious to hear your guys' thoughts on today's interview. I was just one of those surreal moments in the podcasting world that I am, where you sit across from someone you don't know, they open up and they tell you a story, and you're just like, wow, wow. And I hope that hits with the rest of you too. I hope I'm not blowing it up too much,

but it's been one of the ones that I did not foresee coming, and I hope you enjoyed it or enjoy it as much as I did. If you do, you know, all the things, if you're watching on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Rumble, X, Facebook, substack, make sure to share with a friend. Make sure to pass us along as somebody who needs to hear it, all right? And would love to hear your feedback, so make sure you text me or comment,

online. I would just love to see the comments or your thoughts because I thought it was, I just really enjoyed, you know, the hour with Ben. For the people on Substack, I've been saying this all week. We've got a whole bunch of things going on there. One, I interviewed Mel and we just have a conversation in the vehicle about the first month of the trip. That's for paid members. There's other things for paid members as well. There's bonus questions with all the guests this week. And moving forward, that's going to be our goal in person. And that goes behind the paywall, as does Tanner Nadegh's masterclass on The Life of Paul. So there's lots there on Substack to help support the podcast.

We're trying to add a few fun things in there, a few bonus things for people that are supporting the podcast. You can also just become a free member. And there's the week in review that comes out every Sunday right now. And all the episodes are there as well. Okay. So hope your Wednesday, your week is going well. Let's get on to that tale of the tape. Today's guest is a military man turned pastor.

I'm talking about Ben Emery. So buckle up. Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Ben Emery. Sir, I first have to say, thank you for doing this and for sitting down with me. And then I have to say to Chuck, because I assume Chuck's going to listen. And thanks for allowing my pestering to allow you to hook me up with Ben

and then obviously to be sitting here. So thanks for doing this. It's a pleasure to be with you. Now, to the audience, tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, like what I know is what Chuck tells me. And other than you serving with him, obviously being a pastor, maybe just, I don't know, tell us who Ben is. well who ben is now and who ben was are two very different people i'll give you a brief overview of

of my life born raised in london about 45 minutes from here raised by a single mother keep going don't mind me as i walk around and grab things raised by a single mother in my teenage years got into drugs and heavy drinking and violence. I was an empty young man. Just always had this growing hole inside of me that I just couldn't fill. And so I would seek out anything or anyone that I thought I could find identity and I could find a purpose and I could find community, so on and so forth. and so I ended up dropping out of high school in grade 10 and trouble with the law.

And really the Army was, it was a last resort. It's something I thought I would like to do, but really it was the only thing I could do. So the judge let me join without a record. and I joined at 20. And the military, the infantry, specifically, I joined the Patricius. It draws a lot of men, a lot of men without fathers, strong father figures in their life. Men who are, a lot of them angry inside, a lot of them searching for community. So we joined the infantry, and there we kind of, we bond.

It's a family like a few other families, except. the church. It's an even stronger family. And in it, we kind of have this, this, you could say, dysfunction in that we don't have to deal with our problems because we're with each other. And so we just kind of bowl through the challenges of life. So that's the kind of men that I found. Oh, men like me, men searching, even though we didn't know what we were searching for. We were searching for something. And I was a pretty weak soldier at the, the at the start, but I didn't really have any other resort, any other where to go. So I really fought hard to make it through and improved over the first couple of years in the infantry.

I met like a lot of broken people when you're empty, you search out somebody else and you think, if I can get in a, if I can find someone fall in love, then that person will complete me. but we know the reality is two broken people don't make a whole person. So met a young woman in the infantry when I was stationed in Edmonton. So I went from Saint-Jean, Quebec to Wainwright to do my training, stationed in Edmonton in 2001. I joined in 2000 and met her. She had a six-month-year-old daughter.

with no father in the picture. So I took her as my own daughter. And then September 11th happened. And that was a life-changing event. When I joined, you know, mostly Canada had only been involved in peacekeeping missions. And, you know, there was Somali and Croatia. There was some real heavy stuff. But the military would cover.

with peacekeeping missions. And then September 11th happened, and I can still remember coming in from a run, and we go to the back of the company lines, and it's happening across the, on the TV, we're all watching in shock. And I knew at that moment my life is going to change. There was just something inside of me that I knew

this is something that is going to change the world. And it did. we would go on to to serve and give ourselves. I don't know if you want me to get into that now, but I would this would send me on

on a life seeking, a hope seeking mission because the more I got, I saw of humanity and it's evil and what it could do to each other, the more it made me question what is the purpose of life, why am I here? Is there any hope in life?

And so that void inside of me just kept growing and growing and growing, which would eventually lead me to Christ. So I don't know if you want to, or you want me to go from there. Well, I have to forget a podcaster who, you said a few different things there. One is, I'm like, you talked about as an added lesson, before you're in moving into the military, you're like, you know, a judge allowed me to go and I didn't get a criminal record. And not that we need to get into everything, but it's just like, so this was very different

than like you spray paint at a wall or through an egg at a car or something like that. Like when you talk violence, you mean like, I was involved with the wrong kind of people. We could we could say life of, you know, the pull for young men, especially as they want to belong, right? And if there isn't a, I was a skinny, scrawny redhead. And so I was easy bully targets. Yeah, you're easy, easy, low-hanging fruit. Right. So then I wasn't very smart.

I struggled. I had several learning disabilities. And my mom did a wonderful job trying to get me the resources, but I just couldn't get it. I wouldn't pass high school to us 29. And that was, that's a supernatural miracle that I did. So I naturally then gravitated. I wasn't athletic at the time. So I gravitated to the guys, the gang guys.

And so, yeah, it was just wrapped up in those circles. It's not like I wanted to do bad. I didn't want to be associated with being a criminal. It just kind of, it's a life that pulls and sucks a person in gradually. If they're not, if they don't have a strong enough conscience, and they're not strong enough in who they are to say no. So I think the judge saw that I was mixed up and over my head and that the military would give me a way to be removed out of that.

When you're sitting in the courtroom and you, like, is it the judge that suggests the military or you were like, I'm going to go join the military? Yeah, that was, yeah, I was, my lawyer presented that this is, this is where he's going to go. And, and this will be positive for him. And I've done community service. And so I think, I think, yeah, she saw, the judge saw that, okay, here's a, he doesn't have to go down the road that a lot of these young men who go continue to go down this road have to go. So I'm thankful for her.

And when you join the military, you know, and you get in amongst a group of guys and, you know, you're, was it, like, did it, it took time then for, like, you just didn't jump in the military and you're like, this is awesome. Well, no, no, because, so when I joined, we had a lot of the, the instructors were guys that had been through Croatia, guys had been through Somalia. So they were hard, they were tough guys. And their job back then was to grind out those who wouldn't be able to deal with it. Grind out those who had attitudes, the weaker links. So I was a weak link in reality. And I can still remember one of my sergeants coming in, it was in battle school. So first you go through basic training,

and then he go through battle school, which is infantry school. And he told me there had been a number of guys that had been kicked off the course, failed out. And he said, you're next, Emery. You're next. It's my mission to get rid of you. And that was, again, a point where I'm like, I have nothing else to go back to. I have to find a way.

And it broke me, and I needed to be broken. and then I was able to rise up a different person. So I'd say I didn't start to enjoy the infantry until probably a couple years into it when I started to get stronger and tougher, adapt to the thinking of it. You mentioned you started to see the evils of, I can't remember if you said life,

my brain goes to humanity, but regardless you started to see evil and that made you question like, what are we even doing here? I've heard lots of different military men discuss what they saw overseas and in different places and we don't have to get too far into the nitty-gritty,

but wherever you want to go with it, just that that thought process of like, I'm witnessing atrocious things and then the thought after that was basically, what are we doing here? Or like, what is the meaning of life, I guess, is what you're saying? Then you jump right to,

well, and then I felt, on Christ, was that that quick of a jump or was there, like, you know, like, talk to me about the search, because I think on this side, you know, it's, it's, I always, it's a terrible example to the military men, right? But I was a hockey player. And for a lot of time, blind hockey was life and it gave you meaning in a, in a camaraderie, a group of guys, you know, like a direction, if you would. and then when it was done you just kind of left with like now what like what what am i doing i thought

i was hockey that's what i was and i mean obviously now there's so much more to life right fatherhood married um you know um finding lord all these different wonderful things that i could have never possibly uh maybe i could you know i shouldn't say that i could have figured out you know fatherhood and getting married and stuff like that but certainly There's a journey there and it doesn't happen overnight. With you mentioning it like that, walk me through what you're talking about. Yeah, and I'd love to come back later to that purpose after the military, because you talk about it. So every person, this is, I've traveled all over the world, either in the military or on myself or with missions.

And people are searching for a purpose. They're looking for why do I exist? Is there a place for me? Where can I find meaning? Where can I be part of a community that will love me? So even when you're a mixed up young man, that's what you're looking for. And so I was looking for that. And it's easy to get sucked into.

When you aren't finding that, then you nurse your unhappiness with alcohol. with drugs, with women, whatever it is. And so I was searching for purpose, searching for meaning, searching for happiness, but I wasn't finding it. I wasn't finding in a relationship. I wasn't finding it in being drunk. It wasn't finding it in drugs.

It wasn't finding it in even in the Army. There's always that when you complete a course or you move up a rank, then, well, it's like, I made it. And it's disappointing. And so I was searching for something deeper. And so as I started to go overseas, well, I could say at first I started to see the evil inside of myself. We like to think we're all good, right?

You ask a person, most people, if you ask them, are they a good person? Well, the response is going to be, yeah, I'm a pretty good person. because we compare ourselves to other people. And we have all in our own minds an idea of what is good and what is evil. And so in my younger days, I could say I was a pretty good person. But as I started to give in to this the life that an infantry soldier is involved in, I started to see parts of me that even I didn't like. and when you go overseas you're you're in a place and it can be very frustrating and you see people killed

you see locals killed you see your fellow Canadians killed men women and children you become hardened to violence and evil and then you start to portray for soldiers the other people as as the problem we we come up with names right in every war there's names for the enemy. A name, the Afghans were often referred to as a jundi. That was kind of the nickname. It dehumanizes a person, which makes them easier to kill. Easier to reconcile in your own mind that you've had to take a life. But you see in war, you see the evils that people will inflict upon you will inflict upon their own people, that we are, that we do in war and in fighting, and it becomes easier and easier. And so all of these things

are swirling around in my mind. As I, each mission, I was overseas in 2003, 4 and 6. Six was the worst. The others were either defensive missions or peacekeeping mission in Kabul. But in 2006, it was the first mission that Canada was involved in where it was a warfighting mission. Our job was on that roto to seek out the Taliban to go out into the rural areas where a lot of places where nobody had been for years. And the Taliban controlled, we controlled the cities. They controlled the rural areas. So go out, seek them out, hunt them down, capture, kill.

whatever, whatever means. So that opens up a whole different way. When you see death on a daily basis, you start to contemplate things. And so this was this from my, I can say from my probably, I can recognize the void inside him in my early teens, but it grew and grew and grew,

but then really starting to think about life, think about, is there a God? is they're right, as they're wrong, was in my 20s. And in that, there was a lot of heartache, too. After, during my second tour, my partner left. We were just common law, because I thought marriage was just something religious people do. And so she left while I was overseas. And so I came back and just kind of spiraled into deeper.

depression and I would be a high-functioning alcoholic at the time 2004-ish. So then 2006, I was really going over. I can say I was going over with the intent that my son was about he was seven or eight months. When I went over, my daughter would have been five. I went over with either the desire that I would find something or I would just die over there, a hero, because in my mind I had failed at pretty much everything I had tried. Failed as I knew I wasn't a very good son, failed in school, failed, maybe a partner, wasn't.

So if I could either find something over there, some sort of hope, or I could die serving my country, then at least my children would remember me as something positive of instead of what I knew I was, which wasn't a very good, good man. So all of those things are spying around to my mind while I'm over there. And so there was this one place, this one attack we were in. We were doing, it's in the documentary that I'm sure Chuck showed you. Bards of War for people who are interested because they're always interested when this comes up.

and if you reach out to me, I am sure Chuck can point you in the right direction or I can point you in the right direction if you're curious to see it. But carry on. Scott Kestersen, who is the U.S. in battle of journalist, he's put it on YouTube, so it's free to anyone. But we were attacking this one village that was a Taliban stronghold for producing opium, which at the time, Afghanistan was one of the largest producers of heroin. It's how they funded a lot of their operations. And it was the dawn. It was called the Don Raid. And so they fought hard for that village.

Because that's the complexity of war, right? A lot of these, some of them are diehard Taliban. Some of them are young men who were paid some money because there's nothing else to be a part of it. Some of them are told we're invading to take their, their families. Some of them come from other countries to fight. But when it's a major producer, they knew they had to hold this town or they'd lose their lives. So they fought really hard. I don't know what the final death count for that was, but there was a lot of Taliban that died that day. And so I remember this is really when I started to think about life eternity in a deeper way.

I saw this young guy go down. He got hit with large, the heavy machine gun and his chest cavity was gone. And he went down like a hard on his side. And so after the best, the best, battle's done. We created a cordon around the village. And then took off my helmet, went over, sat down, leaned against the wall sitting on my helmet, and I'm having a cigarette. And I'm just looking into this guy's eyes. I'm going to say somewhere between 15 and 18 years old. And his eyes were wide open. Still the shock of what happened to him, the shock of, dying getting hit, was painted in his eyes. But his life was gone, his soul was gone.

And the soul is that part of every one of us that when I look into your eyes, I can see it. It's what makes you, you, when your body, part of being a pastor, I bury a lot of people and been with a lot of people when they die. And you can see the point when their soul leaves their body. Yeah, it's a light in the eyes. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

And so his were gone. and I just thought to myself, what happens after this? Because we were, Canadians were getting killed. It was at the time, and maybe still the most, either that one or the tour after, with the most amount of casualties Canada had taken in one tour since Korea. And so people were dying. And I thought, what happened to him? What's going to happen to me?

and is there a heaven, is there a hell, is there a God, is there hope for this human race because of this is all, if this is all we're going to do to each other, what's the point in it? And that

really sent me on, somebody had given me a Bible before I had gone over and I started to read my thought, well, before I discount it and my perception of what the God of the Bible is. I better read it and actually know for myself. And so I started to read the Bible.

And I would read it, you know, the guys, they're my brothers, they're my family, they'll always be. But you don't. Canadians, the U.S. are a bit different. They're soldiers. Faith is kind of more integrated into their military. there's a stronger connection between the church and the military, but in Canada it's very secular.

And so I would go off and read the Bible, you know, where they weren't when they weren't looking in. But yeah, I started to read it, and I just came face to face with this Jesus who was presented in the Gospels, in the Gospel of John specifically, who was very different than the sort of cultural Jesus that I'd had interactions with either the Jesus who cannot come near people because he's too holy, too perfect,

or the Jesus who's like just a hippie kind of good with whatever man. He was this Jesus who claimed to be the son of God who would take any person where they were, no matter how messed up they were, no matter how sinful and mixed up they were. But he wasn't interested in casual followers either. He wanted their life so he could transform their life. And I was just shocked that, okay, there is just God who will take me in the mess I'm in. But he's not interested in half-hearted following. So I couldn't, it would take me a year before I would actually give in to him because I didn't want to give up my sin. I didn't want to give up the parts of me, the drinking, the,

But I was reading it throughout the last four or five months of that tour. And there would be several other. There was this one battle we were in in Helmand, and that's in the documentary as well. And we should have, you know, Chuck and the guys, they would say, it's because we're such a great fighting force that we came out with no casualties that day. But we went in there and we were due to a battle damage assessment, essentially. They dropped ordinance on what they thought was a headquarters position.

We were to go in and assess and see who's in this town. And so we went in and nobody had been in this place for a long time. And we walked into an ambush and they were waiting for us. And command said when they debrief of a flate, they were watching by satellite, and there was a couple hundred Taliban in there that just came out like a swarm of angry bees. And there was this one time in the battle we are,

it's right when we get ambushed and Chuck and business. We were called B-section, Bravo section, nicknamed business, because we would get the business done. and so they trip we're the lead section in the platoon as we're going in and they trip the ambush and I'm behind this wall

and Jock and Mark and Tony are in this field and they're get ambushed on a couple of sides and the rest of the platoon gets ambushed to the rear and then we split into three groups three chunks the larger bulk fighting in the more in the built up area and then another group of four who scott

was embedded with fighting alongside us were in the field so there's this moment i i can i've only watched the documentary a couple of times it's it's weird watching yourself um brings out a whole host of emotions, but Scott was behind me. And so I see, I see the ambush tripped. They engage the enemy, and I look up the hill, because we come down this hill over this wall. And I see them pulling up and they get ambushed. And that's just this moment where I say, where I think it slows down. It's, you know, in the movies, it's like, oh, does it really? And it's, yeah, it really slows down, time slows down. And I thought, this is it. This is my time to die. Because I thought they're wide open to the field. They're most likely going to get killed because at 25 meters,

there's no reason why the enemy shouldn't be hitting them. So I go, my children pop through my mind, and then I go over the wall. And I'm running to them. Maybe it's about 15, 20 meters to them slide in and nothing, they're not hitting us, which they should be, they're not hitting us. And there's just this heavy presence in the field. I can't explain it, but there was a heavy presence of someone, who I believe was the presence of God in that field. And I can remember sliding in next to Chuck and I said, we got to get out of here and he said i know he and he gets us out chuck was a great leader fearless leader and we get into extended line and we start to conduct what's called a section attack

uh towards their position and again they should have been they should have been hitting us we were should have been like shooting ducks in a barrel but they just couldn't hit us our bg over our head a machine gun fire beside us and there was this wall which they were shooting over and then there was this gully to the side

which there was a couple in there engaging us from and then there was guys in the far rear which the Apaches would deal with but I took out I had I tried to fire an M72

through the wall to bust through this wall so we could get through it but it didn't puncture it because their walls were so thick with mud and I took out a grenade and a grenade weighs a couple of pounds it's heavier than a than a baseball and I wasn't a particularly great baseball player I played but not that great but I threw them all three grenades perfectly over the wall just straight over the lip of the wall into their position and we yeah we fought our way up to the to the gully so we end up getting chased out of that village we linked up with the next

group of four after about 20 minutes or so then we i don't i don't remember the exact time but after a while we linked up with the rest of the platoon who they thought we had they thought we were dead and they were a guess back this is what i'm told back at headquarters trying to figure out how they were going to do the media press that they'd lost seven soldiers because they'd lost view of us in the satellite, and all they could see was this fight going on all over the village. But we end up getting chased out of there because we couldn't win. And later I'm sitting, we'd make what's called a hide in the evening,

essentially a little diamond with vehicles doing security. We'd sleep on them. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, wow, we'd been in firefights, but nothing. We were always, we could say, we always had the advantage, it would seem. We always had the momentum. But in that case, we fought hard, but we were not dominating the ground that day. And I was thinking, why are we alive? We shouldn't all be here.

And that was the first time I heard the first time I heard. Holy Spirit, not some audible voice with thunder and lightning, but often God speaks, and he only speaks to those who are looking, who have hearts that I heard the Holy Spirit, a still small voice the Bible describes it, say, I am God and I saved you. And I believe that. The other guys may not believe that, but I believe that, that it wasn't just because we were excellent soldiers. but that God gave us grace that day and preserved us in that. And so I knew there was a God at that point. I was sure of it, but I wasn't ready yet to relinquish my life to him.

You wouldn't know this. I appreciate you telling me the story. I met Jesus. Or, you know, and I always go and then I say, nobody has to believe me, but it doesn't matter because it's real to me. So, like, what does it matter what other people think? And you'd think if you met Jesus, like immediately you're like, all right, I'm falling you. But you're like, no, it took me a while to relinquish my sins.

I'm like, yeah, I think it took a solid eight months of like, there's got to be a different way. And I think about that. And I'm like, what an idiotic thing to say? And then you just said, I knew. But it still took time. I'm like, what a... Forgive me. It's just funny to me because I'm like, I just get that.

I just completely understand what you're talking about, albeit from a completely different walk of life, just that you're like, I know it's real, but I don't mind going back and doing everything I'd been doing. You know, maybe I can have them both, you know, or I don't know what you're thinking. But I chuckle at that because I'm like, oh, man, I know that.

I know that feeling of like, I know it's real, but I'm going to see if there's other ways. What a silly thing, but obviously so many of us think it. Right. Because we want the blessing of God. Most people want out of the,

most people aren't happy as they interact with people. They'll put on a mask. We wear a lot of masks, but most people are not happy. Most people are not content. but we want a God who will, who is one of our own thinking. And so we we want out of our situation, but we want control. That's the biggest thing for people to give up is control, to say, I'm actually not God.

I'm not doing a very good job at this thing called life. I may have money. I may have influence, whatever. But to come to that point, that's the point. of submitting, submit your life. You're saying the word that I struggle with the most. I probably still struggle with it is, I don't know why the submission is so tough, right? You know what's real?

You just submit to it. Life will go on and you'll probably be way happy. You're like, I don't know. I think of, you know, like come from my dad and my oldest brother run cattle. And I always see that, you know, in fairness, they're going to a place they don't want to go. But like I always see there's a handful of them, head up high. They want to run through every fence, and you're like, I'm just trying to get you to the grass, man.

Just go to the grass, you know. We're trying to push it. Nope, I'm going to do it my way, and I'm like, and I'm one of those. You know, like I'm, and obviously, because I seem to run into it a ton, there's a ton of men that are the same way. The submission part is difficult and almost emotional. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, because we have to humble ourselves.

And humbling ourselves is hard because men, we're built in a culture that says, you can do it, you're enough, you can overcome, right? So pride is looked at as a good thing. Not being proud of something you do, that's a different, but you're enough. And so especially in the military, where it's, you know, kind of who's got the biggest shoulders, where your metals say your value. To humble oneself is a very challenging thing. But the reality is we're all constantly Jesus describes us as sheep. We're all sheep that have gone astray.

And I keep above me. There's a picture you can see there of a sheep. Covered in mud and you can see Jesus in the background running towards it. Right. And I keep that as a reminder, sort of these three pictures of one, our old platoon behind me, and then that picture, and then another picture on the other side of Jesus as a lion and myself as an armored. And it's a reminder of who I was and who I still am and who I desire to be. So I was a soldier, a physical soldier, and I'll always be. That'll always be a part of me. that can never take the soldier out of a soldier. But I was also a lost soldier, and I needed to be rescued. And until I came to the place where I could see that, I wasn't able to receive Christ in a new life.

And so now my purpose is to help bring other lost sheep to Christ. But I also want to be a protector, and I also want to be, I believe, Christian men, are to be protectors. We are to be the ones that are soldiers for Christ, but soldiers who don't use their power to hurt and subjugate, but to protect those who are vulnerable and care for them and stand up to the wolves because there are a lot of wolves in this world. So yeah, humility. It's a hard thing for us, but it's worth it. Because when we are humble, that's when we find true strength. And that's what God says.

draw close to the humble, but God keeps distant from the prideful. You mentioned after the battle, you know, you can hear the small, still voice, and you know. And yet it takes time. What is the moment after that where you finally go, okay? Well, so it's like, I'm going to say a month before were to come back from that tour. So it's late July, early August sometime in that picture.

And back then, this is the only ways of communicating were SAT phones, which you could only get access to, very seldom. It wasn't like now, and it's amazing how much technology has changed in communication. So there were these things on the base camp when we'd come back. We'd come back.

we'd be out for a couple weeks we'd come back to the main camp in kandahar and there'd be this giant trailer and it'd have internet so you could go and check your email and you had a certain amount of times you could make a phone call and so i hadn't heard from i didn't know where my children were i hadn't heard from um my ex for months um so i didn't know where they were and i i can remember i was talking um to somebody who have you heard from her? Do you know where they are? No, I'm sorry, I don't know where they are. My son's like 13, 14 months at this time. And I can just remember sitting back discouraged. And again, second time I heard the Holy Spirit say, and I can say I've heard the Holy Spirit like this probably 10 times in my life, now being a Christian for 19 years.

say, I will deliver your children to you. And it was just like, again, very real. And I was like, huh, wonder what that was. So about 10 days after we get back from overseas, somewhere around 10 days, my, well, go back to getting off the bus from coming back. Your families are there to meet you. My mother and my father. who weren't married.

My father had left when I was five. They both came and met me because they didn't know if I was, they were worried. And they had my children, and my son didn't know who I was. And so he just didn't know who I was, didn't want to be with me. And then my daughter, she embraced me. And then, so then I was with them for a few hours, and then they took them back to their mums. Ten or so days later, she gave them up because she wasn't able to take care of them anymore.

So when most soldiers are doing what soldiers do, if they're single soldiers, they're most likely out partying. If they're married soldiers are with their families, I'm now raising the, these two kids on my own. And so that really changed things. I was, I can remember maybe a couple weeks into that, I walk into my son's room. I was, like I said, I was a, I would drink to numb. And so I was, I was, the kids had gone to bed and I wouldn't drink when the kids are around. But I was having a few drinks to numb and to feel to numb. To numb. And to feel. and to feel. That's the only time I could cry.

I found when I was drink heavily enough to let the emotions out. And I look at my son sleeping in his crib, and I just say, I can't do this and raise them. It was one of those clear defining moments where I knew I have to give up coping with life through alcohol and raise these kids because they need someone. And so I couldn't deal with the war by simply numbing things like that. So anyways, fast forward. It was a gong show for the first nine months of, I take the kids in. I found a daycare that would take kids in at like quarter to six in the morning.

So I dropped the kids off at quarter six in the morning, speed to the base, run in through the back gate, slide underneath the fence, run in just again. get in line and form up for morning PT. And it was this trying to be a soldier and being a single parent at the same time for months until I was like, I can't do this. And so they gave me a position to be an instructor. So I moved from Edmonton to Meiford, where there's a training base up in Meiford, which is about two and a half hours north of us right now, Meiford, Ontario. And I'm in my I'm in my basement. It's maybe a couple weeks after being there. My kids are at school and daycare.

I'm getting my house sorted out. And I'm watching pornography. Something I'd become addicted to back when I was nine years old. There's a lot of young men are. And it's, I can remember. remember the woman in the videos, her eyes looked, is like she looked through the screen into my soul. And for the first time I realized how wicked and evil this was. And it's the first time I felt conviction that this was someone's daughter, that this was a human being, who was

obviously in a horrible situation. And I knew I couldn't go on living like this anymore. And so I cried out that Christ would save me, help me. I can't do this anymore. And it was like a robot. I got up and this was, I got up, walked to the VCR, grabbed the disc, broke it. went and got all the rest of it, smashed it,

because I knew this is what my first thing I had to give over to God, this evil, which he hates, because he's created all of us and we all have value and we deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. And that was the point of my conversion in fall of 2007. That's when I started to, that's when I cried out and everything started to change from that point on. once again it's just super cool i don't know like obviously that is a dark moment right like a very

raw moment sometimes wondering where the heck i am going on this trip because i i i don't think this was planned right like i wasn't supposed to be going this direction and uh i hear that story and i'm like man it's cool when when when he just steps in and you can feel you know you mentioned being like a robot. I remember being terrified. All these weird things. The missionary pastor I told you about from Manitoba. One of the things I wanted to talk about was spiritual warfare because in our culture, it just doesn't seem you mentioned secular, right? The military is pretty secular. When I talk about some of the things that have happened to me, I don't really like talking about them because I'm pretty sure most people are like, oh, boy. You know, I know a lot of the audience. I know a lot of the audience

isn't like that, but there's a lot of people in society that's like, sure, okay. But it's funny when I just is like, I can't do this anymore. I don't know what's happening. I'm falling apart. Like, oh, crap, I don't know why I'm the emotional one. It's just that you're supposed to be something, you know, as a husband and a father. And I feel myself just falling short of it every bloody day. And then the, in my opinion, the attacks of like, things that I thought were not real, started to present themselves as very real. And I was like, I'm losing my mind.

I'm like losing it. And when I finally just, I can't do this anymore. If you're real, just come in and take this all away and I'll follow you wherever you lead. And it was immediate. And I, it's weird because, well, not weird. It's, it was cool. I mean, also kind of strange because I thought all that was kind of woo-wooing.

Like, that can't possibly happen. but after that you know like the level of peace that came through life doesn't mean that everything got easy that's not the case whatsoever just that you know because i've fallen short day over day there's lots of days there i'm like man i you know you think it'd be easy it's not easy but like those moments where it's just like so real you're like no that happened people can talk about whatever they want to talk about that is one of the realest moments and the moment i was just like i can't do this anymore like i don't know what's happened i mean I'm falling apart.

I just need somebody here to help me. And when he stepped in, and in my opinion surrounded me, you know, like I like your picture. People can't see it, but, you know,

the lion and the man in the armor, you know, Ephesion 6 is my favorite. It's just my favorite. Because I'm like, once I put on the armor of God, like I haven't had any of that spiritual stuff anymore. Like it,

I'm not saying it probably isn't there. It probably is. But I don't worry about it anymore because I just put it on every day. and I follow and some days I fall short, probably most days I fall short. But those are really important stories for people to hear. You know, in the world in Canada, specifically where we talk about everything secular and we don't talk about these things.

I was telling your colleagues, I think, would probably be the, you know, the people that are working with you. That has been one of the shocking things about doing a podcast and just talking everyday people is how many times Jesus or faith comes up now and how important it's becoming people's lives and how when you talk to people from other countries is like, yeah, you mora. Why aren't you guys talking about that?

I'm like, because our leaders talk about how we're a secular country and, you know, we don't have this and I'm like, no, we really do. And it's stories like yours that just hammer that home even more. Yeah, humanity always wants to think that we can do this through technological advance or the human mind. And so we've been going this way as a nation hard, hardcore for slowly over the last 50, 60 years, but really hard over the last 20 years.

But most people can see that things are not working out. Things are not getting better. Humans do not possess all the answers. and that we all have something, you simply look at a baby, the beauty of a baby, to think that baby is an accident? No.

You look at the sunset and the majesty and the beauty of that to think that's all a random set of chance. Most people know that isn't true, but they've been trained to say, oh, no, you're going to find your happiness in whatever the culture can give you. But you get that,

now you're making 80 grand a year, now you're making 120, you're still not happy. So people are searching. I would say now, so I've been a pastor now for 11 years, I would say from studying history, I read a lot of history. There's probably never been a time in Canadian history where there have been so many hungry young people, the demographic that we're finding coming to our church

for the first time ever, with no church background, and all across the Western world is young people between the ages of 18 and 25 or 26. Because they've grown up in a completely secular culture, schools, mindset, and they're like, there's got to be more to this. So I'm going to go and see if there's any answers. And there's definitely answers for them. If we will just point them to God, there's all the answers for life that they need. And the spiritual warfare you're talking about.

about this is, Ephesion 6, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the forces of the heavenly realms. And so this is all going around in a realm that we cannot see, but we can recognize there are spiritual things going on. And now you step out of the darkness into the light. And the darkness will, I can, I can, promise you, Sean, that you're going to have some spiritual attack. That's coming and that's wonderful at this period where everything is peaceful. But if you keep putting on Christ and you keep seeking

him, he will get you through it. I have gone through so many ups and downs over the last 19 years since becoming Christian. But as I cling to God, he has always been faithful in bringing me through it and and using it to strengthen me and make me more useful and able to help other people. And that's a, that's a beautiful thing to happen. You know, I was saying before we started, I don't think I've ever been in, well, sitting with a pastor, who's got, you know, like, you know, I'm looking at your group you served with in Afghanistan over your head. And I'm like, what an interesting, you know, what an interesting, I don't know, duality, like two things coming together.

Once upon a time I interviewed a guy named Joshua Allen, who I called the Cowboy Preacher. He came from, well, now I just call him the Cowboy Preacher, but, you know, he comes in and he is this big, burly man who, by all accounts, I think he would, he would agree with me was a very dangerous man as a younger man in Alberta. and he comes in and he just doesn't hold back. And he talks about, you know, like, where he came from and how he gets there and then now where he is. But this one military and being a pastor, I'm sure that happens lots. I don't mean to say that it never happens.

But in a thousand interviews now, plus, I've never ran into a military man who became a pastor. and is, you know, like, that's, maybe it's not as interesting as I think it is. Maybe people are like, try, that's not that interesting. I just look at it and I'm like, not how do you reconcile that? Because you went and did and were a part of things and you talked about finding God, and what is the meaning of this? Was, when did you decide become a pastor? And did the military thing, do you have to like, this is going to sound really stupid, Ben?

Like, did you have to, like, forgive yourself or ask for forgiveness for some of the things you did? Or was it like, you know, that's part of being in the military, and that's just what military does. And, you know, like, that's part of human. I don't know. I don't know. Does any of that make sense? Well, yeah.

So I'll answer the second question first, and then the other one. So when I first became a Christian and started following Christ, I really wanted to know if what is God's position on killing? We know that you shall not murder. Some people think it's you shall not kill, but it's actually you shall not murder, which means take a life that is innocent. But so as I studied and reconciled it, I realized that Jesus came into contact with soldiers. John the Baptist was preaching, and the soldiers said, what should we do to be saved? well, don't use your strength, essentially, and your position to extort others and abuse others.

Jesus came in contact with multiple different soldiers, never condemn them for being a soldier, but he always went to the heart. And in fact, said, I haven't found faith in all of Israel greater than this Roman centurion. So he realized it's not the true. Was the Roman centurion the one who had the daughter? Right. Yeah, who is sick. Yes.

Right. And he asked Christ to heal her. And so, so yeah, so it's not the person, I realized, because God's has many warriors, David was a great warrior. It's what you do with your power. It's like in anything. It's what a doctor, a doctor has power. A doctor can be good, uses power for good or evil.

A politician has power. good or evil. So there is an evil and that sometimes can only be stopped with violence. And as Christians, we want to resolve everything as peaceful as we can. Bubbles very much about conflict resolution. But we all also are to protect the vulnerable. God is very serious about abuse, about corrupt. Jesus is he, when he's on, the earth, he's hammering the religious leaders, who in those days, the religious leaders, the Pharisees, they were like the political. They're kind of like members of parliament, but they had religious clout. And then there were the Sadducees who were like the priests. And the system was

corrupt. And it was abusing those who had no power and taking advantage and making it all about money and power. And that was who God went at the most. So I realized that sometimes, there is a last resort, there only has to be, that violence has to be done. Now, do I, war is, the fog of war is not always simple, not always straightforward. And the reality is, things happen in wars that you wish, maybe you'd handle differently. And you have to deal with that. So I've had to forgive myself. from where my heart was in some of the battles

because you can become hardened to it and you can come to enjoy it and that's what and then you give into the evil when you enjoy taking life you give into it. So I had to forgive myself in that but for what we did

the overall we were following orders to the best of our ability would I use violence it was the last resort to protect innocent people now 100% if I needed to because that's part of my responsibility as a Christian man. So how did I become a pastor? That was your second question. Yes, it was. Right. So, okay, so I'm 27. I've now started to follow Christ, got these two kids. they're not two and six living in owen sound which is about 20 minutes from the basin meford and i i spend a few months reading through the the bible book of acts i'm like okay i'm going to

find a church so i go around to a bunch of different churches and i'm like oh it's a little bit different than than that seems like the church in in the bible but i find this little church down the road and and they I walk in there I'm a complete disaster I don't know nothing about nothing but I walk in there with my messiness and my two kids and this congregation just embraces me and they care for me and the men some of the older men I'm like a sponge teach me how to be a man teach me how to be a father, teach me how to be, to just be the Christian man that God of wanting to. And so they're mentoring me and teaching me.

And I'm the guys at the base, my fellow instructors, they don't quite know how to take me at first. Because over the six months, they start to see me changing. I'm no longer, you know, get drunk at the parties. give up smoking and no longer swearing every third word. So they don't quite know how to get me. But one thing I learned early on from God is that Jesus says that there's these religious people that are angry because he's sitting and having dinner with tax collectors and prostitutes and not involved in what they're involved in, but he's caring for them.

He's interested in their lives. God, when you become a Christian, you don't pull away from messy people. You come alongside them. You don't participate in what they're participating in, but you still love them, care for them, be a part of them. So I still, maybe I drew closer to the guys, to the fellow instructors. And I really started to feel this burning desire inside of me to, over the next couple of years.

I cared for the, when I was an early on instructor, I listed like dishing it out to the recruits. Now I'm like, I care about these recruits. Like they're not just there. I actually want to see them do well. And so this, God was changing my heart. And so I'm getting disciples at this church

for a couple of years, raising my kids, single, be single for six years. And that was good, because there was a lot of cleanup that God had to do in me before I'd be anywhere ready to be in a relationship. And one time the pastor, maybe a year and a half or so into being a Christian, he says, I want you to get up and share your testimony. I'm like, testimony, what you mean me get up there and talk in front of those people?

I don't even have a high school education. I can't do that. And just share your story. Share what God has done in you. And so I do. and there seemed to be a response and I seem to be able to reach these fellow soldiers in places that others maybe can't

I wouldn't have been able to before and there's this burning desire in me that okay I don't know where I'm going to go but I know I want to help people to know God and to get out of the prison that they're in There's so many people walking around on prison, a prison to whatever, you name it. It's there. And so it's now, so I say this is my test to God, putting out a fleece.

People have called it. So I say, okay, if you want me to be in some sort of ministry and leave the army, then you've got to help me pass high school because I had severe learning disabilities. I helped back a grade, went to a special class, a form of dyslexia where my eyes jump around. Couldn't spell worth. Still struggle with all those things. But you've got to help me pass high school.

So I'd go teaching the day. I'd be with my kids, babysitter would come over when they went to bed. I'd go to night school at the local college. And after a year, I got my high school. also there's there I hope to get your high school next step I want you to I felt this desire okay and this is the way God tends to direct he gives you a desire for something and then starts to light the path and then faith is stepping out and even though you don't have an explanation even though it doesn't make sense so I say okay God well if you really want me to leave the army which is a crazy concept being a

single father, you know, I'm nine years away from a pension. You've got a, I'm going to go to these three wise men, three guys, they don't know I'm going to each of them, they're wise men. They live what they believe. They're not just religious people. And I'm going to tell them my idea to leave the army, go back to school with my two kids, sell my house, rent a place, and they've all got to come back and say, yeah, this is, this is, this. is what we think you do. I'm like, no way they're going to say this is a good, good idea. So each one of them individually, they don't know, they can't talk about it with each other.

And they all come back to me over the next month and say, yes, we feel this is the way you should go. I'm like, oh, okay. So then I started the process to release from the military and released after 11 years and go to. So I move a couple hours south. My mother's been a complete blessing during this time. She would come over and watch the kids for while I was out in the field. And I start school in Kitchener, which is about an hour from here. And most of the kids, I'm 31. Most of the guys are like 18, 19, 20. I'm the old guy with a few other old guys. And I do a four. A four year bachelor of theology. But in that, as God had been preparing me, I thought I'm going to be a

single guy forever. All right, God, obviously I'm too much of a crazy man for one of your daughter, so I'll just accept that I'm going to be single. And that's often the way it is with God. When you least expect it and when you become content with your current situation, and then he brings along what you're desiring. So I'm renting this house from a turkey farmer named Colin. I'm renting his house. He lives across the way with his family. My two kids, they play with his kids.

And I'd work for him some nights loading turkeys after the kids go to bed. A good, a good job. I enjoyed it a lot, surprisingly. It keeps you humble. And then he, one day, he comes over and he says, yeah, I think, I think this is your lucky number. And he hands me this phone number. She says, just give this woman a call.

It's like, oh, brother, get real. I'm not doing this blind date thing. And he goes to church with this woman named Rebecca, and she'd remained single, and she'd follow the Lord from a young age. Sorry about that. forgot to turn the phone off. That's all right. I mean...

You can cut that. You think we're going to cut it? I'm like, no. If people have learned me by now, I mean, it's just going to be in the background and that's life. Because I don't love cutting things. Hopefully they don't call back. I appreciate real life.

Right. Yeah. So Rebecca. Right. So Rebecca, and she's walked with the Lord from a young age, completely different than, me. But the second date, I know

this is a woman. So you did call her. Oh, yeah, I called her. Yeah, and she was going to do a pity date because she was like she was friends with Colin and his wife and so she'd go out with me. It's a pity for him. Like it to be nice, right? I'll meet the guy, yeah. And we meet at this Mennonite coffee shop and like the most unromantic place that you could ever meet somebody. It's only us

in Mennonites. and then she met me again. And yeah, I just knew that this is the woman that I'm going to marry. She didn't know. She wouldn't know for a while after that. But yeah, so we got married my third year through school. At the end of my third year, we did my fourth year. So become, she's got no kids.

We have my son. just before my last year. And then 2015, we went up north and started pasturing. And it was a roller coaster because it's very different than soldiering. I'll tell you that. Very different. Oh, so? Well, first of all, when you're a soldier, you can see the enemy usually and you can hit back.

But most of the warfare that goes on is spiritual. so it's not as simple and you depend on God for it. So that's different in the military. There's a chain of command with people above you, people below you, and you get things done that way. In the church, you're leading mostly volunteers. And so what I've learned from pasturing, which is very much adaptable, adapts to soldiering,

but a little bit different is you have to show them that you care about them before they will follow you. They'll give you a certain amount of respect because of your position. But if they know that you care about them and you know them, then they'll follow you. And that's true for the best section commanders and commanders in the military of those who the soldiers know care for them. They will die for their commander. and Chuck cared for us. And so we were willing to follow in into whatever came. And so meeting with people, when you meet with people and you hear their pasturing,

you hear their longings, their tragedies, their hopes and dreams. And it's a heavy weight to carry that I have to constantly offload. to God or it would be completely overwhelming, especially with the things people are going through right now. People are so, yeah, so they're carrying so much weight as the family units are breaking down, social media, just, you know, so many identity crisis, so much addiction that's been promoted throughout our culture as good, which people are finding out is not good. So all of these things are just going in people's lives. So it's much more difficult.

And that's why I am completely every week, out of my comfort zone and completely dependent on God to help me. Whereas soldiering, you can usually muster up enough strength to do it yourself. Very early on in this conversation, I mentioned at the end of a hockey career, and purpose. He said, we'll come back to that. I assume becoming a pastor has become your purpose, but I was curious what you wanted to come back to with purpose.

Right. Well, different phases of your life, you have different, God is constantly shaping you and preparing you for the next chapter, using the present to shape you for the future. So I've realized in our country, soldiers are heavy on my heart veterans and soldiers there's three so there's the average lost person that he's heavy on my heart the persecuted Christians most people don't know that Christians are the most heavily persecuted group around the world by other groups tens of thousands killed

media doesn't care throughout Africa and the Middle East so they're on my heart my so that's part of my I go on missions to support the persecuted Christians specifically and then veterans and soldiers are on my heart and what I'm going back to your hockey analogy is veterans struggle and the U.S. is better at their churches coming alongside veterans than we are we basically have very few very little I've I've tried to search out ministries for veterans and soldiers because we're so because the government is we don't want Jesus in anything, the God of the Bible, no thanks. Soldiers, veterans, they often, they're often isolated because there's so few of us, comparatively to the U.S.

So what, as I run into veterans, they're isolated. And there's three things that I've identified that once they get out of the military, they often struggle with. So one is family, right? They're used to their soldiers. That's their family. That becomes their family. The divorce rates are just astronomically high among soldiers.

So a lot of them come back from the war. They don't know how to cope with the things that they did. They don't have a family when they get out of the military. No more military family. They're isolated from other veterans. So family second is identity. They were a soldier. that was their identity.

Now, who am I? Thanks for 20, 25 years of service. Out the door you go. Right. And then the third is a mission. Because they don't know who they are and they don't have a mission anymore. And that mission, the day could be,

go sweep the hallways. That's still a mission. So they don't have a family, don't have identity, they don't have a purpose or a mission. And they need those things or they just tend to isolate self-medicate, don't really, they just kind of spiral.

So it's really, God has put on my heart that somewhere down the line, I want to develop, hopefully we still can in this country, a ministry, a non-charitable, a not-for-business ministry that ministers to veterans and soldiers and gives them, helps them, helps them, identify through Christ, connects them with Christ to give them an identity and a mission and a family again. So that was, that's really weighs heavy on my heart, something down the road. Yeah, because there's a certain point which you can identify of when they're going to need it the most, and it's when they come back, because they're going to be lost for a multitude of different reasons, as you pointed out.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and they are. They're most of the guys that I serve with are not doing well. They're not doing well. Some, some are, but most are not. And because that's uncomfortable for us as a society, again, we come from my grandfathers, my grandfather served in World War II. That generation came back.

they were victorious. There were so many of them. They had each other. They were like the heroes of the nation, right? Afghanistan, Vietnam, different. The overall, we won many battles, but the overall war wasn't won. And there was so few soldiers,

and it was a messier, it was someone else's war. After 9-11, everyone was on board, but typical, typical politics is let's get on board with a war early on until it costs a lot of money and a lot of people are casualties and then let's get out of this. So after it fell, you have these veterans who come back and there, they see the Taliban control, Afghanistan. They're left with the memories, many of them physical, emotional, emotional, emotional scars, trauma. They're cut off society, although the average person would be, yeah, let's support our veterans.

They just don't know how to deal with them because it was a different and unique war. So then soldiers tend to pull back because they don't really want to talk to somebody who hasn't been through it. And then they don't know where they fit. They retire and they sort of just fade off into the sunset. So as I interact with a lot of veterans, most are not doing well. And so I would love if God opens up the door somebody to, I have some veterans that come here, but on a bigger level and maybe a more thorough level helping them.

I guess I've been asking everybody two questions as I go across Canada. One is political. one is I think a lot of fun I don't know what people think some days I know exactly what people think other days I'm like maybe people are over these questions it doesn't matter the first one is Alberta independence

you know like as a I've said this story over and over again but like as a young Canadian I remember when Quebec was doing it and I didn't fully understand and now coming from Alberta and interviewing

a ton of the people around the movement and in the movement and everything else So I've just been wondering what other Canadians think of it. The further I go east, you know, I'm just like, I'm curious. Do people even care? Do people wish them well? Do they wish other things?

Do they hate them for it? I don't know. What are your thoughts on Alberta independence? Or just the fact there's a referendum that's going on about independence? Well, I think depending on which media stream they, people listen to, would depend on whether they believe it's right or wrong as I hear people talk. You just have to sit down and listen to people at coffee shops and they'll tell you exactly. You just have to listen.

You don't even have to ask them a question. They'll be spouting off what they believe and what they're ticked off about. So I think Canadians care. Some are angry. Some are understanding about it. I don't think most people are very poor now at dealing with conflict. Right? That's an understatement.

Yeah, that's an understatement. So we live in this culture that is fed the, to push people further and further. You know, you've heard of the pendulum of first, right? Right. And so every, it seems like the pendulum is swinging harder and harder, the harder, the harder, each side goes, the harder the other side goes. Most people can recognize that that is not good. You can't be a country, and this is in a lot of Western countries you're seeing this. You can't be in a country that is fractured between two groups so far and getting further and further.

So I think, yeah, most people recognize that some people are for, some people are against. I am, I am, I'll say this. I'm sad about the state of our nation. I love our nation. We come from a rich history of freedom, of helping each other, bravery, to see how fractured we are and to see that the group, to see that it breaks my heart. And I know enough about history to know enough about history to know that if we keep heading down this road, it's not good for anyone. It can lead to very bad things in the long term. As we look at to each other less as fellow Canadians and more as the problem and the enemy, it doesn't lead anywhere good. You see it in the U.S. You can see it in European countries. And I understand people are angry. People feel like they haven't been heard.

people feel like they've been told to go sit in the corner and shut up. And so the natural reaction of people who feel like they've been made to be able. The bad guy is to make more drastic statements with the hope that you'll pay attention to us and give the due respect that we as fellow countrymen should get. so I won't my my my my my my desire is that is that we can be again and there's things that need to be addressed and there's things that need to be changed or you're never going to have unity in the country and that's where my hope is that we have leaders that will stop playing games and will come back to to reason and in good good communication that's

That's my answer. Yeah, I think Canadians all walks have been waiting for a leader, right? Like just somebody who just says it how it is. But I don't know if they want it. I don't know either. I don't know either. That's true. Because to want an honest leader means they have to tell you the hard things.

And there are hard things decisions that need to be made for a nation that will be uncomfortable because we're not sustainable as a nation. this current way of life. Everyone knows that it's not sustainable economically, for many different reasons. And so it's why sometimes I'll get people that will come in and sit. I'll get couples, we'll get individuals coming for counseling,

and they'll say, this is the problem. And I'll say, I'm now, as an early pastor, I'd spend a new pastor, I'd spend so much time trying to be nice. Now I'm learning from Jesus, and I say, do you want me to speak to you?

and I'll say this as an adult, would you want me to speak to you as a child? What do you mean? Well, if I'm going to speak to you as an adult is going to be the reality of what I see in your lives and what needs to change. I'm not going to take sides. What I see dysfunctional in you, ma'am and you, sir,

or a child, I'll just tell you everything's okay. So back to, do Canadians actually want that? We'll come to a place and want that, then we'll hopefully have a leader who will tell the truth and not play political games. But Canadians will have to decide that. Do you think, you don't think Canadians then are ready for that? I don't know. It means challenging times to get healthy, right?

If you're out of shape, you have to go through a really uncomfortable time of that first six months to get in shape in order to feel, and we're as a nation going to have to to go through. We'll either be forced to go through it because of circumstances or we can make that decision ahead of time. And are we ready to go through that uncomfortable phase to get ourselves to a healthy place? Generally talking to people, I don't think most are ready yet, unfortunately. Maybe I'm out to lunch. No, I don't think you're out to lunch. I think that's an interesting perspective. I, in my, so far on the road trip, I've, you know, incognito a little bit, right? Like, nobody knows who I am. And that's, that's quite all right by me. And so I just get to enter into

lots of conversations. I've been saying this over and over again on the podcast. And so you just get to hear how different people who I assume voted liberal or NDP, because I come from a very voter base conservative, right? And you hear how they talk. And then you go into different areas. And you hear everybody else talking. But underlying and all, I don't think any one voter base is exactly happy or thrilled with what's going on in Canada,

which tells me we're getting closer to when they're ready for actual change. Definitely closer. But are we there yet? That's a good question. I actually don't, you know, I've been thinking for probably 10 years,

we've got to be ready for change, you know? And then it's funny, you're like, you know, I don't seem to worry about that near as much as I used to because once again, you know, some of those things that you cannot control, I just leave up to God.

And, you know, the level of peace that comes with that doesn't mean you stop doing or talking or working with people or, you know, all the different things. It's just like some of this is out of Shrodd's control. And that's okay, you know, and it's certainly out of Ben's control. Right. And that's what, as a pastor, as I speak to,

the congregation, my desire is to get people to see each other not as the enemy. There's some people who will never come into this church because I just tend to speak the Bible in a straightforward. If God says it, then this is that. We're not going to make stuff up. But it's unity. We need to come around what we hold central in our faith,

and we need to let go of some of the tertiary issues, or we're never going to, we're just going to spend a lot of time fighting with each other. And that isn't what anyone wants. The fun question is, we're on a year-long road trip, as I was telling you, before we started. Do you have a favorite memory as, you know, a father, husband, kid of a road trip or camping? It sticks out to you. I mean, military, maybe there's something of overseas, you know, it's just a fond memory. I don't know.

Well, we won't. We'll let go of overseas. but where we love to go as a family every year we go up to a place called Iron Bridge it's about an hour east of Sioux St. Marie and we go up to this cabin my kids and I and my daughter lives in Edmonton so the five of us

we go up there and you can't see any there's hardly any civilization and just bush and beauty everywhere and we yeah we fish and we it's just an amazing wonderful place where we ATV and and it's just amazing. So, Iron Bridge. Iron Bridge.

And then what is it about, you know, like I assume I already know the answer, but, you know, you talk about getting away from civilization and it's you and your family. What is it specific about Iron Bridge and that time at the cabin? What is it about it? You get away from the noise and you put your phones away. our culture is so noisy everything you have to have background music for everything your phone is constantly dinging everywhere you go there is noise noise noise and you can't think clearly when there's always noise you can't be in the moment with the people that matter the most you know my kids are my son's 21

my daughter's 25 now 21 he's still um just finishing up college and then 11 and 8, soon they're going to be gone. And all we have is today. There's no promises about tomorrow. I don't know if I'll be alive in six months from now. And so I can just be there and be in the moment and look them in the eyes and hear them without the noise. And it's just a beautiful, wonderful thing. Ben, thanks for doing this.

I know you probably had your, you're like, I don't know what the heck is going on here. but I appreciate you sitting across me and doing this and shout out to Chuck again for taking my text and my calls and making sure this happened because he talked about you an awful lot and I was like well if I'm going through Ontario I've got to try and find this Ben character and I'm glad you honor me with letting me come in here and talk to you well thanks Sean it's it's been a pleasure